Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes/Spoilers
John Wojnaroski wrote: Hi, The aircraft file for the 747-100 provided by Jon for the SCALE3X expo does not contain a drag coeefficinet for the spoliers. I tried adding a value by copying that portion from the 737 xml file, but it does not appear to work. In that the value generated by the spoiler lever is passed from the 747 sim hardware to FG and on to JSBSim, but there is no visible effect on the airspeed. Tried tweaking the coefficient to a higher value, but still nothing. What did I miss? You will also need to add the speedbrake component to the FLIGHT_CONTROL section of the configuration file: INPUT fcs/speedbrake-cmd-norm DETENTS 2 0 0 1 0.6 OUTPUT fcs/speedbrake-pos-norm Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
On Thursday 10 February 2005 18:19, Martin Spott wrote: > "Vivian Meazza" wrote: > > James Turner wrote > > > >> > While we are are it, do we already have consensus on > >> > which keys to use for these functions - are the keys > >> > consistent across different aircraft and FDM's ? > >> > >> The keys do seem to be standard, j/k for spoilers and > >> Ctrl-B for speedbrake, the issue of course is guessing for > >> a given model which surfaces are assigned to which name. I > >> guess 'things on the wings' are spoilers, and 'things not > >> on the wings' are speed-brakes? > > > > Not necessarily. The Seahawk's speedbrakes (aka airbrakes in > > UK) are in the upper wing, and work in conjunction with the > > flaps - and yes they are both animated and functional. The > > Hunter's (under the rear fuselage) is interlocked with the > > gear. > > > > Just to clarify things. Spoilers dump lift, and may provide > > a bit of braking. Speedbrakes dump speed, and may provide a > > bit of lift positive or negative (although designers try to > > avoid this). > > Great, now we have an accurate definition, we should fix the > key bindings :-) > Does everyone agree on having j/k for the spoilers ? Now, what > are we going to take for the speed brakes ? Simply using > Ctrl-B is not sufficient, because speed brakes are supposed to > offer multiple settings - do we already use i/o for anything ? > If not, then we could take these keys for the speed brakes. > > Comments, please, > Martin. Something to note is that while YASim includes spoilers it doesn't cater for speed brakes, so the speed brakes on the TSR-2 are therefore a bit of a hack. Interestingly, the speed brakes on the YF-23 could be done in YASim because speed braking is achieved by deflecting the flaps and ailerons in opposition. However, because there's no speed-brake control axis in YASim I've had to control them using the spoiler control axis. Confused... :) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
Erik Hofman wrote: > I agree. Although I do think the spoilers of the Fokker 100 are employed > automatically on touchdown, but I'm not yet certain about that. You're absolutely correct, Erik. I don't ask people to force-match their aicrcraft model on a common standard where the _real_ aircraft is different. Where real aircraft _are_ different they actually should be handled different in FlightGear as well. It's just that people will believe we're mad when we put two or three different keybindings for a thing as simple as a speed brake into FlightGear. Typical users, no matter if they are real pilots and expect a realistic sim or if they are just 'gamers', won't spend the effort to notice that these different aircraft with their respective key-bindings stem from different authors with different preferences. They will take the short-cut and call the current situation a mess :-) To be honest, I myself would call this a mess as well, although I know that these models have evolved from different sources Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
Martin Spott wrote: The Fokker 100 has both speedbrake (Ctrl+B) and Spoiler (Shift+S) support. The model has been redesigned and improved significantly but there seemed to have a typo introduced for the animations. Is it a tall order to kindly request aircraft modellers to coordinate on a consistent key mapping ? Especially after reading Melchior's listing of the actual key-mappings I definitely think the user should _not_ be burdened with such a confusion. I agree. Although I do think the spoilers of the Fokker 100 are employed automatically on touchdown, but I'm not yet certain about that. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
"Ampere K. Hardraade" wrote: > For commercial airliners at least, it will make more sense to map the reverse > to Ctrl+PgDown. The reason being is that the throttles are mapped to PgUp > and PgDown, and thrust-reverse is part of the throttles. Erik Hofman wrote: > The Fokker 100 has both speedbrake (Ctrl+B) and Spoiler (Shift+S) > support. The model has been redesigned and improved significantly but > there seemed to have a typo introduced for the animations. Is it a tall order to kindly request aircraft modellers to coordinate on a consistent key mapping ? Especially after reading Melchior's listing of the actual key-mappings I definitely think the user should _not_ be burdened with such a confusion. Thanks for listening, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
James Turner wrote: I've been spending as much time as possible over the past few days just flying around (I've had a very long gap where FG wouldn't build and I was busy with other things), but this has raised a small issue which may indicate something about my flying habits... Basically, I have not yet found an aircraft where the speedbrakes or spoilers seem to work, either visually or in terms of slowing the plane down. From looking at data/keyboard.xml, I can see the current bindings are j/k for the spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the speedbrake, but pressing the keys doesn't seem to do anything. So, have I missed something here? In particular, which models should have spoilers and speedbrakes that definitely work, and maybe even animate? I could swear I recall seeing pictures of the Fokker-100 with it's 'distinctive' tail brake assembly deployed. Sorry for jumping in so late, bet here it goes; The Fokker 100 has both speedbrake (Ctrl+B) and Spoiler (Shift+S) support. The model has been redesigned and improved significantly but there seemed to have a typo introduced for the animations. Both the spoiler and speedbrake are supported in the FDM though. Also the F-16 does have working speedbrakes. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
On February 10, 2005 08:27 am, James Turner wrote: > BTW, there is no keybinding for reverse thrust : I'm going to test with > some nasal code i found in one of the joystick files, but is there a > free key I should use? Ctrl-R perhaps? For commercial airliners at least, it will make more sense to map the reverser to Ctrl+PgDown. The reason being is that the throttles are mapped to PgUp and PgDown, and thrust-reverse is part of the throttles. Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
On Thursday 10 February 2005 15:51, Giles Robertson wrote: > > Can't remember if the speedbrakes actually slow the aircraft on the > > 737 but the animation should work when you hit Ctrl-B > > The animation works, but has no noticeable affect on airspeed or > attitude for all airspeeds I tested. Energy analysis of a log file > didn't show any more energy dumped, either. A quick run in the 737 shows the speedbrakes contributing (directly) 6923 pounds of drag at a flight condition of 3000 feet and 300 knots. This doesn't include any additional induced drag. The value can be read through the property browser at /fdm/jsbsim/aero/buildup/Cdsb. An idle descent at 250 knots shows a descent rate of about 1600 fpm with speedbrakes retracted. With speedbrakes extended the descent rate to hold 250 knots is about 2600 fpm. Looks like they work. Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
> Can't remember if the speedbrakes actually slow the aircraft on the > 737 but the animation should work when you hit Ctrl-B The animation works, but has no noticeable affect on airspeed or attitude for all airspeeds I tested. Energy analysis of a log file didn't show any more energy dumped, either. Giles Robertson ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
"Vivian Meazza" wrote: > James Turner wrote >> > While we are are it, do we already have consensus on which keys to use >> > for these functions - are the keys consistent across different aircraft >> > and FDM's ? >> >> The keys do seem to be standard, j/k for spoilers and Ctrl-B for >> speedbrake, the issue of course is guessing for a given model which >> surfaces are assigned to which name. I guess 'things on the wings' are >> spoilers, and 'things not on the wings' are speed-brakes? > Not necessarily. The Seahawk's speedbrakes (aka airbrakes in UK) are in the > upper wing, and work in conjunction with the flaps - and yes they are both > animated and functional. The Hunter's (under the rear fuselage) is > interlocked with the gear. > Just to clarify things. Spoilers dump lift, and may provide a bit of > braking. Speedbrakes dump speed, and may provide a bit of lift positive or > negative (although designers try to avoid this). Great, now we have an accurate definition, we should fix the key bindings :-) Does everyone agree on having j/k for the spoilers ? Now, what are we going to take for the speed brakes ? Simply using Ctrl-B is not sufficient, because speed brakes are supposed to offer multiple settings - do we already use i/o for anything ? If not, then we could take these keys for the speed brakes. Comments, please, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
James Turner wrote > > While we are are it, do we already have consensus on which keys to use > > for these functions - are the keys consistent across different aircraft > > and FDM's ? > > The keys do seem to be standard, j/k for spoilers and Ctrl-B for > speedbrake, the issue of course is guessing for a given model which > surfaces are assigned to which name. I guess 'things on the wings' are > spoilers, and 'things not on the wings' are speed-brakes? Not necessarily. The Seahawk's speedbrakes (aka airbrakes in UK) are in the upper wing, and work in conjunction with the flaps - and yes they are both animated and functional. The Hunter's (under the rear fuselage) is interlocked with the gear. Just to clarify things. Spoilers dump lift, and may provide a bit of braking. Speedbrakes dump speed, and may provide a bit of lift positive or negative (although designers try to avoid this). Spoilers sometimes act in conjunction with ailerons to provide roll control. Regards, Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
James Turner writes The keys do seem to be standard, j/k for spoilers and Ctrl-B for speedbrake, the issue of course is guessing for a given model which surfaces are assigned to which name. I guess 'things on the wings' are spoilers, and 'things not on the wings' are speed-brakes? Except that the TSR2's brakes are on the spoiler key. The Fokker uses the spoiler key for the wing spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the tail-brake thing, which seems sensible to me. Except when the spoilers and speed brakes use the same flight control panels.Eg Boeing commercial aircraft 747,767 etc.Then the spoilers should be as a function of aileron movement. Cheers Innis ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
On 10 Feb 2005, at 13:03, Martin Spott wrote:
While we are are it, do we already have consensus on which keys to use
for these functions - are the keys consistent across different aircraft
and FDM's ?
The keys do seem to be standard, j/k for spoilers and Ctrl-B for
speedbrake, the issue of course is guessing for a given model which
surfaces are assigned to which name. I guess 'things on the wings' are
spoilers, and 'things not on the wings' are speed-brakes?
Except that the TSR2's brakes are on the spoiler key. The Fokker uses
the spoiler key for the wing spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the tail-brake
thing, which seems sensible to me.
BTW, there is no keybinding for reverse thrust : I'm going to test with
some nasal code i found in one of the joystick files, but is there a
free key I should use? Ctrl-R perhaps?
Here's the snippet I found (in Top-Gun-Afterburner.xml):
reverser = !getprop("/controls/engines/engine[0]/reverser");
props.setAll("/controls/engines/engine", "reverser", reverser);
if (reverser) {
gui.popupTip("Thrust Reverser ON");
} else {
gui.popupTip("Thrust Reverser OFF");
}
H&H
James
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
James Turner wrote: > So, apologies for the confusion, I didn't check closely enough, and the > two aircraft I happen to have been using the most, the F16 and the > A320, don't seem to have either system installed. While we are are it, do we already have consensus on which keys to use for these functions - are the keys consistent across different aircraft and FDM's ? Martin.-- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
On 10 Feb 2005, at 11:57, Innis Cunningham wrote: Basically, I have not yet found an aircraft where the speedbrakes or spoilers seem to work, either visually or in terms of slowing the plane down. From looking at data/keyboard.xml, I can see the current bindings are j/k for the spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the speedbrake, but pressing the keys doesn't seem to do anything. Can't remember if the speedbrakes actually slow the aircraft on the 737 but the animation should work when you hit Ctrl-B Ah, ok. Thanks to Martin, I realised they work on the TSR2 as well, and both the spoilers and speed-brakes work on the Fokker-100. I haven't had a chance to test if the FDM is seeing any effect yet, this is just checking over the visual models. So, apologies for the confusion, I didn't check closely enough, and the two aircraft I happen to have been using the most, the F16 and the A320, don't seem to have either system installed. And on a related note, do any of the jets have thrust reversers installed? Not that I am aware of. Drat, and no auto-brakes either - I guess I'll have to stop flying my approaches so fast :-) Adding animated reverser cowls to the A320 would be a seriously nice touch, if whoever made the model + animations has any free time to kill. H&H James ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
Hi James James Turner writes Basically, I have not yet found an aircraft where the speedbrakes or spoilers seem to work, either visually or in terms of slowing the plane down. From looking at data/keyboard.xml, I can see the current bindings are j/k for the spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the speedbrake, but pressing the keys doesn't seem to do anything. Can't remember if the speedbrakes actually slow the aircraft on the 737 but the animation should work when you hit Ctrl-B And on a related note, do any of the jets have thrust reversers installed? Not that I am aware of. Cheers Innis ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Speedbrakes / Spoilers
James Turner wrote: > Basically, I have not yet found an aircraft where the speedbrakes or > spoilers seem to work, either visually or in terms of slowing the plane > down. From looking at data/keyboard.xml, I can see the current bindings > are j/k for the spoilers, and Ctrl-B for the speedbrake, but pressing > the keys doesn't seem to do anything. I remember FlightGear having different keys for speedbrakes/spoilers depending on which aircraft you use, although this might already be sorted out (I stopped complaining about that after a while because nobody was interested ). _But_ I am pretty sure the speed brakes on the TSR.2 _have_ been working so the remaining difficulties probably onle need a small arrangement to get the stuff back to work, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
