RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Hi Gary When we moved to FM10, I complained on this list about conditional text crashes that sound exactly like yours, and an Adobe engineer got in touch. I sent them files and detailed bug reports and, long story short, they fixed it in FM11. So yes, they are listening now, and if you can coax an upgrade out of your company, it's probably well worth it. Interested to hear you're doing a DITA conversion. We are too, but planning on using Frame 12 as our main editor. Cheers Rebecca >>> "Zimmerman, Gary" 11/04/14 11:33 >>> I would be really happy to be completely wrong on this. Now I'm just sorry my company probably won't upgrade from FM10 to 12 so I can see the improvements. If they are listening and responding now (I don't think they were in the, perhaps distant, past), kudos to them. I would be thrilled, for example, if they addressed the fragility of the conditional text feature, an otherwise great strength of FM. My site has been plagued with seemingly random, fairly frequent, work-losing FM crashes that mostly seem related to the application of the conditional text feature in structured FM documents. Switching the conditional visibility to show all conditions or switch to showing a few initiates the crashes, and we suspect it is when the conditions are applied to pilcrows, end of doc mark, or various structure elements in such a way that hiding the condition makes an invalid document or affects the internals such that FM freaks out. The experiences have made what was a really superb feature into a source of frustration, fear, and risk. The UI to me was a devolution after FM7, but I'm old and cranky. I do use the Save/Restore Workspace to bring things back after everything seems to become littered here and there, especially working with two monitors, and occasionally remoting in from home where I use a large laptop with only one screen. Still, I would prefer not to need to do that, though I appreciate that it's an option. Perhaps our DITA conversion will go slower than expected (almost surely will) so maybe I'll get to experience FM 12 at some point before FM 15 is available. Looking forward to being pleasantly surprised with the improvements and response to customer issues. -- garyZ From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of rebecca officer Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 10:22 PM To: Scott Prentice; framers@lists.frameusers.com; Keith Soltys Subject: RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone First off, thanks to everyone who pointed out the Control+6 keyboard shortcut. 13 years of FM and I didn't know that one. It certainly beats the copy special route. Second, Kapil Verma, the FM product manager, emailed me off-list to discuss the functionality, and let me know they'll be adding a button in the conditional text pod to make stuff unconditional. He also explained why the checkboxes behave like they do, and suggested an improvement. I'm very impressed at that level of response to my whinge - thanks, Adobe! I certainly find the pods an improvement on the old interface, so overall I'm happier with the new UI than the old. Cheers Rebecca >>> Keith Soltys 1/04/14 02:14 >>> I’m with Scott on this one. I do have my gripes about some of the FM interface (I’m still using 10 but will upgrade to 12 as soon as WebWorks supports it), but in general, I’ve found the pods and tearaway catalogs useful. I use two monitors, one in portrait mode for my content, and one in landscape mode for all of the dialogs. Works well and keeps my working area clean. Adobe is paying a lot of attention to its users. I’ve had direct contact with the Adobe development team based on comments made here and in the Adobe forums – they are listening. Bear in mind that FrameMaker is not the only product Adobe sells and some of the chang es made were to make FrameMaker more consistent with their other products. You may consider this approach misguided but it’s corporate policy and almost certainly beyond the control of the Adobe team. Regards Keith From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott Prentice Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:27 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Aw .. c'mon .. that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I'm not a fan of the "new" (since FM9) UI either, but personally attacking the people behind the current product really isn't fair. The current team developing FrameMaker *is* very interested in customer feedback, and does listen. (And it's certainly not the programmers' faults .. they implement the features they are told to.) The new UI is a significant change from the old standard, but can be tamed if you're willing to spe
making stuff unconditional in FM12
I would be really happy to be completely wrong on this. Now I'm just sorry my company probably won't upgrade from FM10 to 12 so I can see the improvements. If they are listening and responding now (I don't think they were in the, perhaps distant, past), kudos to them. I would be thrilled, for example, if they addressed the fragility of the conditional text feature, an otherwise great strength of FM. My site has been plagued with seemingly random, fairly frequent, work-losing FM crashes that mostly seem related to the application of the conditional text feature in structured FM documents. Switching the conditional visibility to show all conditions or switch to showing a few initiates the crashes, and we suspect it is when the conditions are applied to pilcrows, end of doc mark, or various structure elements in such a way that hiding the condition makes an invalid document or affects the internals such that FM freaks out. The experiences have made what was a really superb feature into a source of frustration, fear, and risk. The UI to me was a devolution after FM7, but I'm old and cranky. I do use the Save/Restore Workspace to bring things back after everything seems to become littered here and there, especially working with two monitors, and occasionally remoting in from home where I use a large laptop with only one screen. Still, I would prefer not to need to do that, though I appreciate that it's an option. Perhaps our DITA conversion will go slower than expected (almost surely will) so maybe I'll get to experience FM 12 at some point before FM 15 is available. Looking forward to being pleasantly surprised with the improvements and response to customer issues. -- garyZ From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of rebecca officer Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 10:22 PM To: Scott Prentice; framers at lists.frameusers.com; Keith Soltys Subject: RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone First off, thanks to everyone who pointed out the Control+6 keyboard shortcut. 13 years of FM and I didn't know that one. It certainly beats the copy special route. Second, Kapil Verma, the FM product manager, emailed me off-list to discuss the functionality, and let me know they'll be adding a button in the conditional text pod to make stuff unconditional. He also explained why the checkboxes behave like they do, and suggested an improvement. I'm very impressed at that level of response to my whinge - thanks, Adobe! I certainly find the pods an improvement on the old interface, so overall I'm happier with the new UI than the old. Cheers Rebecca >>> Keith Soltys mailto:keith.soltys at tmx.com>> >>> 1/04/14 02:14 >>> I?m with Scott on this one. I do have my gripes about some of the FM interface (I?m still using 10 but will upgrade to 12 as soon as WebWorks supports it), but in general, I?ve found the pods and tearaway catalogs useful. I use two monitors, one in portrait mode for my content, and one in landscape mode for all of the dialogs. Works well and keeps my working area clean. Adobe is paying a lot of attention to its users. I?ve had direct contact with the Adobe development team based on comments made here and in the Adobe forums ? they are listening. Bear in mind that FrameMaker is not the only product Adobe sells and some of the changes made were to make FrameMaker more consistent with their other products. You may consider this approach misguided but it?s corporate policy and almost certainly beyond the control of the Adobe team. Regards Keith From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott Prentice Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:27 PM To: framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at lists.frameusers.com> Subject: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Aw .. c'mon .. that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I'm not a fan of the "new" (since FM9) UI either, but personally attacking the people behind the current product really isn't fair. The current team developing FrameMaker *is* very interested in customer feedback, and does listen. (And it's certainly not the programmers' faults .. they implement the features they are told to.) The new UI is a significant change from the old standard, but can be tamed if you're willing to spend the time to learn how to make it do what you want. There are training videos and other info about setting up workspaces and other features, and with FM12, they have fixed most of the missing keyboard shortcuts (I believe). I totally agree that there are some frustrating aspects to it, but that's the new world of UI design. If you don't like it, stick with FM8. No one is forcing you to
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
At 17:21 +1200 9/4/14, rebecca officer wrote: >Second, Kapil Verma, the FM product manager, emailed me off-list to discuss >the functionality, and let me know they'll be adding a button in the >conditional text pod to make stuff unconditional. He also explained why the >checkboxes behave like they do, and suggested an improvement. > >I'm very impressed at that level of response to my whinge - thanks, Adobe! I know it's not the done thing to post 'me too!' messages, but it is indeed very gratifying to know that the development team monitor and respond to this group. -- Steve [eyeing his as yet untried copy of FM 12 with wariness...] ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Hi everyone First off, thanks to everyone who pointed out the Control+6 keyboard shortcut. 13 years of FM and I didn't know that one. It certainly beats the copy special route. Second, Kapil Verma, the FM product manager, emailed me off-list to discuss the functionality, and let me know they'll be adding a button in the conditional text pod to make stuff unconditional. He also explained why the checkboxes behave like they do, and suggested an improvement. I'm very impressed at that level of response to my whinge - thanks, Adobe! I certainly find the pods an improvement on the old interface, so overall I'm happier with the new UI than the old. Cheers Rebecca >>> Keith Soltys 1/04/14 02:14 >>> I’m with Scott on this one. I do have my gripes about some of the FM interface (I’m still using 10 but will upgrade to 12 as soon as WebWorks supports it), but in general, I’ve found the pods and tearaway catalogs useful. I use two monitors, one in portrait mode for my content, and one in landscape mode for all of the dialogs. Works well and keeps my working area clean. Adobe is paying a lot of attention to its users. I’ve had direct contact with the Adobe development team based on comments made here and in the Adobe forums – they are listening. Bear in mind that FrameMaker is not the only product Adobe sells and some of the changes made were to make FrameMaker more consistent with their other products. You may consider this approach misguided but it’s corporate policy and almost certainly beyond the control of the Adobe team. Regards Keith From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott Prentice Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:27 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Aw .. c'mon .. that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I'm not a fan of the "new" (since FM9) UI either, but personally attacking the people behind the current product really isn't fair. The current team developing FrameMaker *is* very interested in customer feedback, and does listen. (And it's certainly not the programmers' faults .. they implement the features they are told to.) The new UI is a significant change from the old standard, but can be tamed if you're willing to spend the time to learn how to make it do what you want. There are training videos and other info about setting up workspaces and other features, and with FM12, they have fixed most of the missing keyboard shortcuts (I believe). I totally agree that there are some frustrating aspects to it, but that's the new world of UI design. If you don't like it, stick with FM8. No one is forcing you to upgrade (although they do encourage it). As for XML editors .. I think you'll find that XMetaL is considerably lacking when compared to FM. Especially if you're planning on generating PDFs .. you'll either need to take a step back on your formatting and layout, or you'll still need to use FM for PDF publishing. (But I am biased .. I'll admit that freely.) Cheers, ...scott NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail, including all materials contained in or attached to this e-mail, contains proprietary and confidential information solely for the internal use of the intended recipient. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise and ensure that it is permanently deleted from your systems, and do not print, copy, distribute or read its contents. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Le présent courriel, y compris tous les documents qu'il contient ou qui y sont joints, renferme des renseignements exclusifs et confidentiels destinés uniquement à l'usage interne du destinataire prévu. Si vous avez reçu le présent courriel par erreur, veuillez nous aviser immédiatement, notamment par retour de courriel, et vous assurer qu'il est supprimé de façon permanente de vos systèmes; veui llez également vous abstenir d'imprimer, de copier, de distribuer ou de lire son contenu. NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http:/
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
I'm with Scott on this one. I do have my gripes about some of the FM interface (I'm still using 10 but will upgrade to 12 as soon as WebWorks supports it), but in general, I've found the pods and tearaway catalogs useful. I use two monitors, one in portrait mode for my content, and one in landscape mode for all of the dialogs. Works well and keeps my working area clean. Adobe is paying a lot of attention to its users. I've had direct contact with the Adobe development team based on comments made here and in the Adobe forums - they are listening. Bear in mind that FrameMaker is not the only product Adobe sells and some of the changes made were to make FrameMaker more consistent with their other products. You may consider this approach misguided but it's corporate policy and almost certainly beyond the control of the Adobe team. Regards Keith From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Scott Prentice Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:27 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Aw .. c'mon .. that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I'm not a fan of the "new" (since FM9) UI either, but personally attacking the people behind the current product really isn't fair. The current team developing FrameMaker *is* very interested in customer feedback, and does listen. (And it's certainly not the programmers' faults .. they implement the features they are told to.) The new UI is a significant change from the old standard, but can be tamed if you're willing to spend the time to learn how to make it do what you want. There are training videos and other info about setting up workspaces and other features, and with FM12, they have fixed most of the missing keyboard shortcuts (I believe). I totally agree that there are some frustrating aspects to it, but that's the new world of UI design. If you don't like it, stick with FM8. No one is forcing you to upgrade (although they do encourage it). As for XML editors .. I think you'll find that XMetaL is considerably lacking when compared to FM. Especially if you're planning on generating PDFs .. you'll either need to take a step back on your formatting and layout, or you'll still need to use FM for PDF publishing. (But I am biased .. I'll admit that freely.) Cheers, ...scott NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail, including all materials contained in or attached to this e-mail, contains proprietary and confidential information solely for the internal use of the intended recipient. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise and ensure that it is permanently deleted from your systems, and do not print, copy, distribute or read its contents. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALIT? Le pr?sent courriel, y compris tous les documents qu'il contient ou qui y sont joints, renferme des renseignements exclusifs et confidentiels destin?s uniquement ? l'usage interne du destinataire pr?vu. Si vous avez re?u le pr?sent courriel par erreur, veuillez nous aviser imm?diatement, notamment par retour de courriel, et vous assurer qu'il est supprim? de fa?on permanente de vos syst?mes; veuillez ?galement vous abstenir d'imprimer, de copier, de distribuer ou de lire son contenu. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Keyboard shortcuts -- Was: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12
it wasn't so.Credibility gone.Maybe 11 is better, maybe 12 even better.Don't know if I'll ever get to try them. -- garyZ ** ** *From:*framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Quatro *Sent:* Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:50 AM *To:* 'rebecca officer'; framers@lists.frameusers.com *Subject:* RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi Rebecca, I see what you mean and agree that if you want to quickly remove all conditions from a selection, it is painful. They should put the Unconditional button back in, or have a modifier key were you could uncheck everything with one click. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com <mailto:r...@frameexpert.com> *From:*framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com <mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] *On Behalf Of *rebecca officer *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:19 PM *To:* framers@lists.frameusers.com <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> *Subject:* making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone I just went looking for the "unconditional" button in the revamped Conditional Tags pod in FM12. It ain't there. Am I just being blind? Or is there another one-or-two-click way to make stuff unconditional? At the moment, it looks like I either have to go the Copy Special route, or manually untick all the tick boxes. To add insult to injury, they go On > As Is > Off, so I have to click each tickbox *twice* to clear it. Seriously, Adobe?? Cheers Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers ass...@leximation.com. Send list messages tofram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visithttp://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/sp10%40leximation.com Send administrative questions tolistad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as lapel...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lapelton%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
I share a lot of Gary's frustrations, although I haven't expressed it as eloquently :-). I also appreciate Alexandra's and Scott's opinions. I am not opposed to the OWL interface, per se, having used it in InDesign, etc. It is the general lack of quality control and consistency that has been disappointing for me. FM 9 was really a dog as far as performance and stability and the interface changed the way important short cuts worked in previous versions. FrameMaker 11 had an undocumented FDK change that caused problems with document display updates in plugins and scripts. Documentation updates have lagged behind in each release. The ExtendScript documentation is sparse and contains inaccurate information. At the same time, users have had to pay premium dollars for each release while Adobe struggles to "get it right". For me, FrameMaker 8 was a solid version. It had unicode support and the "old", simple interface made things fast and efficient for automation. Scripts typically run slower in the newer versions and you have to ignore long periods of a white, "Not Responding" screen. InDesign is not perfect for long documents, but the quality and "fit and finish" of the entire InDesign universe is a stark contrast to the FrameMaker world. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Zimmerman, Gary Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:08 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 I swear it's like the Adobe FrameMaker developers do absolutely NO usability testing, get absolutely NO feedback from existing customers, focus groups, or anything else before they foist on us a crappy, untested GUI that their offshore developers implemented in some kind of cultural vacuum. (Not offshore culture so much as programmer culture - before any programmers get offended, there are plenty of exceptional programmers who have a GREAT sense of usability and customer needs - apparently Adobe hasn't hired any for the FM team, nor any usability/human factors consultants.) The programming underneath may be great (I doubt it, with the general fragility of the thing for many releases now), but the usability if off-the-charts bad. Like something designed by a bunch of college programmers who have no concept of building a usable product, but instead think "more is better" so they toss in everything figuring that they'll have something for everyone, and end up with such a hash salad that you spend more time jumping through GUI hoops than you do productive writing. (Remember what college kids did when word processors introduce lots of fun fonts to play with - the FM 9 and 10 GUI is pretty much the GUI equivalent of "ransom letter" tech writing.) I can remember when FM was unquestionably a better choice than Word for any serious documentation work. Now they're approaching parity. I don't know about FM8, but when we jumped from 7 to 9, it was all downhill after that. We're on 10 now, debating upgrading. We're also moving to a DITA CMS and Xmetal editor - much less powerful, but it does what it needs to do without being an obstacle to the writers. We didn't even consider using FM as our XML editor, though the transition might have been less of an issue for our writers who are used to FM. Sorry to rant. I LIKE FM. I'm just so sorry they messed with the GUI and messed up so badly with 9 and onwards. They may fix it to be decent again incrementally, but like Windows 8, they should have scrapped the whole thing when they realized what a horrible blunder they made instead of turning a deaf ear and insisting everything was great for so long, when real users knew it wasn't so. Credibility gone. Maybe 11 is better, maybe 12 even better. Don't know if I'll ever get to try them. -- garyZ ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
An easy way to make a selection unconditional is to press Ctrl+6. The related shortcut is Ctrl+4 to apply a condition. I use unstructured FM12 and I like it (gasp!). There are little things to get used to with each version, sure; once you have the pods/panels set up the way you like, FM is very usable. Many of the changes that the Adobe engineers made over the years are in response to requests from users. They do consider feedback and pay attention to what users want. Look at how lucky we are - we aren't forced into subscriptions like the Creative Cloud. (The forced subscriptions have ended my purchases of the video production suite.) Software is always changing, to attempt to retain and attract customers and evolve with the times. I can't think of any software programs that are completely perfect and bug-free. FM is one of the better ones out there, in my opinion. Consider me a satisfied customer since FM 5.0. Alexandra Duffy ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Rebecca Officer wrote: > . At the moment, it looks like I either have to go the Copy Special route, or manually untick all the tick boxes. The Control+6 keyboard shortcut (built-in, all versions of FM) would definitely be faster (at least until a button is available). Shlomo Perets MicroType, http://microtype.com FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training & consulting * FM-to-Acrobat TimeSavers/Assistants ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Hi, I fully agree with Mike. I use FrameMaker since version 3, and I use many of the shortcuts. I really prefer the new GUI to the old one. Regarding making text unconditional in FrameMaker 12: It's difficult. When you want to _change_ the condition state you want to set it to On or Off. However, if you have a few conditions and started to change something, and then you notice that you should not change one of the conditions, then you you should be able to set it to "As Is". However, this "As Is" state is really confusing. I tested FrameMaker 12 in my virtual machine, and when I clicked on the On/As Is/Off check box, the check box got hidden (my virtual machine's fault), and I did not notice that it changed to "As Is" instead of "Off". I did not understand why nothing happened when I clicked "Apply" ... Generally I think that the check boxes are better than the radio buttons in FrameMaker 11. Best regards Winfried From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:21 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Actually, I've not even participated in beta testing of FM and have been solicted for feedback and feature requests from the Adobe team. I'm happy with them. And the new interface, in my opinion, is a big improvement over the old FM 7 interface. I like it so much better. And you can customize your workspaces. You may want to check out this video for an overview of using the new interface (as of FM 9). I found it very helpful in making the switch way back then: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/tips-and-tricks-for-technical-communicators-to-maximize-productivity/getting-started-with-the-new-framemaker-9-user-interface/ You may also want to check out message #35 in the following thread, for screen captures and descriptions of an example custom workspace I use. It fits everything on one screen and works really well for me: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4039348 Mike Wickham On 3/29/2014 6:08 PM, Zimmerman, Gary wrote: I swear it's like the Adobe FrameMaker developers do absolutely NO usability testing, get absolutely NO feedback from existing customers, focus groups, or anything else before they foist on us a crappy, untested GUI that their offshore developers implemented in some kind of cultural vacuum. This e-mail contains privileged and confidential information intended for the use of the addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in respect of any information contained in it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and immediately destroy this e-mail and its attachments. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Actually, I've not even participated in beta testing of FM and have been solicted for feedback and feature requests from the Adobe team. I'm happy with them. And the new interface, in my opinion, is a big improvement over the old FM 7 interface. I like it so much better. And you can customize your workspaces. You may want to check out this video for an overview of using the new interface (as of FM 9). I found it very helpful in making the switch way back then: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/tips-and-tricks-for-technical-communicators-to-maximize-productivity/getting-started-with-the-new-framemaker-9-user-interface/ You may also want to check out message #35 in the following thread, for screen captures and descriptions of an example custom workspace I use. It fits everything on one screen and works really well for me: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4039348 Mike Wickham On 3/29/2014 6:08 PM, Zimmerman, Gary wrote: ** I swear it's like the Adobe FrameMaker developers do absolutely NO usability testing, get absolutely NO feedback from existing customers, focus groups, or anything else before they foist on us a crappy, untested GUI that their offshore developers implemented in some kind of cultural vacuum. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Aw .. c'mon .. that's a bit harsh, don't you think? I'm not a fan of the "new" (since FM9) UI either, but personally attacking the people behind the current product really isn't fair. The current team developing FrameMaker *is* very interested in customer feedback, and does listen. (And it's certainly not the programmers' faults .. they implement the features they are told to.) The new UI is a significant change from the old standard, but can be tamed if you're willing to spend the time to learn how to make it do what you want. There are training videos and other info about setting up workspaces and other features, and with FM12, they have fixed most of the missing keyboard shortcuts (I believe). I totally agree that there are some frustrating aspects to it, but that's the new world of UI design. If you don't like it, stick with FM8. No one is forcing you to upgrade (although they do encourage it). As for XML editors .. I think you'll find that XMetaL is considerably lacking when compared to FM. Especially if you're planning on generating PDFs .. you'll either need to take a step back on your formatting and layout, or you'll still need to use FM for PDF publishing. (But I am biased .. I'll admit that freely.) Cheers, ...scott On 3/29/14 4:08 PM, Zimmerman, Gary wrote: ** I swear it's like the Adobe FrameMaker developers do absolutely NO usability testing, get absolutely NO feedback from existing customers, focus groups, or anything else before they foist on us a crappy, untested GUI that their offshore developers implemented in some kind of cultural vacuum.(Not offshore culture so much as programmer culture - before any programmers get offended, there are plenty of exceptional programmers who have a GREAT sense of usability and customer needs - apparently Adobe hasn't hired any for the FM team, nor any usability/human factors consultants.) The programming underneath may be great (I doubt it, with the general fragility of the thing for many releases now), but the usability if off-the-charts bad.Like something designed by a bunch of college programmers who have no concept of building a usable product, but instead think "more is better" so they toss in everything figuring that they'll have something for everyone, and end up with such a hash salad that you spend more time jumping through GUI hoops than you do productive writing.(Remember what college kids did when word processors introduce lots of fun fonts to play with - the FM 9 and 10 GUI is pretty much the GUI equivalent of "ransom letter" tech writing.) I can remember when FM was unquestionably a better choice than Word for any serious documentation work.Now they're approaching parity.I don't know about FM8, but when we jumped from 7 to 9, it was all downhill after that.We're on 10 now, debating upgrading.We're also moving to a DITA CMS and Xmetal editor - much less powerful, but it does what it needs to do without being an obstacle to the writers.We didn't even consider using FM as our XML editor, though the transition might have been less of an issue for our writers who are used to FM. Sorry to rant.I LIKE FM.I'm just so sorry they messed with the GUI and messed up so badly with 9 and onwards.They may fix it to be decent again incrementally, but like Windows 8, they should have scrapped the whole thing when they realized what a horrible blunder they made instead of turning a deaf ear and insisting everything was great for so long, when real users knew it wasn't so.Credibility gone.Maybe 11 is better, maybe 12 even better.Don't know if I'll ever get to try them. -- garyZ ** ** *From:*framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Quatro *Sent:* Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:50 AM *To:* 'rebecca officer'; framers@lists.frameusers.com *Subject:* RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi Rebecca, I see what you mean and agree that if you want to quickly remove all conditions from a selection, it is painful. They should put the Unconditional button back in, or have a modifier key were you could uncheck everything with one click. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com <mailto:r...@frameexpert.com> *From:*framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com <mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] *On Behalf Of *rebecca officer *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:19 PM *To:* framers@lists.frameusers.com <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> *Subject:* making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone I just went looking for the "unconditional" button in the revamped Conditional Tags pod in FM12. It ain't there. Am I just being blind? Or is there
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
At 23:08 + 29/3/14, Zimmerman, Gary wrote: >Sorry to rant. I LIKE FM. I'm just so sorry they messed with the GUI and >messed up so badly with 9 and onwards. They may fix it to be decent again >incrementally, but like Windows 8, they should have scrapped the whole thing >when they realized what a horrible blunder they made instead of turning a deaf >ear and insisting everything was great for so long, when real users knew it >wasn't so. Credibility gone. Maybe 11 is better, maybe 12 even better. >Don't know if I'll ever get to try them. As someone who is about to make the transition from 7 on Mac to 10, or possibly 12, I find this very depressing. I have never had any gripes - or maybe only a few trivial ones - with the GUI in 7. Its shortcut keyset is programmed into my fingers, to the extent that I get annoyed when other apps don't respond to them - or, worse, do something completely different ;-) I am not looking forward to FrameMaker for Windows. As for Rebecca's original gripe, in 7 I'd go the right-click and Copy Special route by default, but I guess it must be really irritating if the relevant bit of the GUI doesn't appear. In another part of the Universe, I've seen a Word Ninja program totally around the interface using a combination of VB macros and GUI customization: maybe programming around the FrameMaker 10/12 interface is a useful approach? Can this sort of thing be done with scripting? A question for Rick, I guess... Onwards and upwards... or possibly not. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
I swear it's like the Adobe FrameMaker developers do absolutely NO usability testing, get absolutely NO feedback from existing customers, focus groups, or anything else before they foist on us a crappy, untested GUI that their offshore developers implemented in some kind of cultural vacuum. (Not offshore culture so much as programmer culture - before any programmers get offended, there are plenty of exceptional programmers who have a GREAT sense of usability and customer needs - apparently Adobe hasn't hired any for the FM team, nor any usability/human factors consultants.) The programming underneath may be great (I doubt it, with the general fragility of the thing for many releases now), but the usability if off-the-charts bad. Like something designed by a bunch of college programmers who have no concept of building a usable product, but instead think "more is better" so they toss in everything figuring that they'll have something for everyone, and end up with such a hash salad that you spend more time jumping through GUI hoops than you do productive writing. (Remember what college kids did when word processors introduce lots of fun fonts to play with - the FM 9 and 10 GUI is pretty much the GUI equivalent of "ransom letter" tech writing.) I can remember when FM was unquestionably a better choice than Word for any serious documentation work. Now they're approaching parity. I don't know about FM8, but when we jumped from 7 to 9, it was all downhill after that. We're on 10 now, debating upgrading. We're also moving to a DITA CMS and Xmetal editor - much less powerful, but it does what it needs to do without being an obstacle to the writers. We didn't even consider using FM as our XML editor, though the transition might have been less of an issue for our writers who are used to FM. Sorry to rant. I LIKE FM. I'm just so sorry they messed with the GUI and messed up so badly with 9 and onwards. They may fix it to be decent again incrementally, but like Windows 8, they should have scrapped the whole thing when they realized what a horrible blunder they made instead of turning a deaf ear and insisting everything was great for so long, when real users knew it wasn't so. Credibility gone. Maybe 11 is better, maybe 12 even better. Don't know if I'll ever get to try them. -- garyZ From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Rick Quatro Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:50 AM To: 'rebecca officer'; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi Rebecca, I see what you mean and agree that if you want to quickly remove all conditions from a selection, it is painful. They should put the Unconditional button back in, or have a modifier key were you could uncheck everything with one click. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com<mailto:r...@frameexpert.com> From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of rebecca officer Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:19 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> Subject: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone I just went looking for the "unconditional" button in the revamped Conditional Tags pod in FM12. It ain't there. Am I just being blind? Or is there another one-or-two-click way to make stuff unconditional? At the moment, it looks like I either have to go the Copy Special route, or manually untick all the tick boxes. To add insult to injury, they go On > As Is > Off, so I have to click each tickbox *twice* to clear it. Seriously, Adobe?? Cheers Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: making stuff unconditional in FM12
Hi Rebecca, I see what you mean and agree that if you want to quickly remove all conditions from a selection, it is painful. They should put the Unconditional button back in, or have a modifier key were you could uncheck everything with one click. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of rebecca officer Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:19 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: making stuff unconditional in FM12 Hi everyone I just went looking for the "unconditional" button in the revamped Conditional Tags pod in FM12. It ain't there. Am I just being blind? Or is there another one-or-two-click way to make stuff unconditional? At the moment, it looks like I either have to go the Copy Special route, or manually untick all the tick boxes. To add insult to injury, they go On > As Is > Off, so I have to click each tickbox *twice* to clear it. Seriously, Adobe?? Cheers Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
making stuff unconditional in FM12
Hi everyone I just went looking for the "unconditional" button in the revamped Conditional Tags pod in FM12. It ain't there. Am I just being blind? Or is there another one-or-two-click way to make stuff unconditional? At the moment, it looks like I either have to go the Copy Special route, or manually untick all the tick boxes. To add insult to injury, they go On > As Is > Off, so I have to click each tickbox *twice* to clear it. Seriously, Adobe?? Cheers Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
