Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
trouble, that comment I find just confusing. though it is true some developers like lworks have stopped, there are actually far more people making games now than their used to be, especially counting bgt. beware the grue1 dark. - Original Message - From: "Trouble" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Actually not so many now, but there are also not so many making games either. At 09:39 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: Honestly, how many developers of games for the blind gamer can you think of that announce deadlines and don't come through on their promises or don't let gamers know what's up? Unless I read your message wrong, you make it sound as though there are quite a few, which I don't think is the case. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Trouble" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! You know its kind of hard to market something to such a small audience and spread out community. There are so many email lists that is ridiculous. Every time you think you got it covered there pops up some one that gets mad and starts another email list the same as what they left. If you don't be leave me just go to Freelists.org You will find a ton of blind lists and if you go to google or yahoo. You will find the same lists. Don't even think about the org's, because they really don't care unless they get some change! By what has ben said the org's posted on there sites as games for us to play are not only for kids but think all blind are mind set kids. This has come up in the mag years ago and the answer is still the same. They know out there of the games. i have seen lots of dead sites advertising these games. But when you have some many put games out and then change the dead sites don't. plus you have the fact that a while back there was a lot of problems with getting these games. people paid and got told shut up. Some get to little to spend and when stolen! They don't forget but do tell all they know. i don't put that blame on the community, its the developer that made that problem. They put deadlines up that they don't meet. When they should be doing it like the pro's. When the game is done there it is, as dev put out and not as community nagged! Any changes are called next version just like any other software, but the community seems to dictate how that is to be done. So do the dev's actually run and own there companies? Just like sheep that think they have a mind when all along its the dog that states the law. At 07:32 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: White stick blunkit was nothing more than a lapdog to his sighted employees. He didn't do anything for disabled people in education if anything he made it more difficult in the long run. As for games and awareness, this is a topic that I've debated so many times before. I do think that it's primarily the responsibility of the developers to promote their games. There's plenty of avinues out there like has been pointed out before not including the rnib and such organizations. Certainly for the online games that we have there's places like topwebgames.com which I know charge but I don't think they're astronomically pricy. Sadly it's people by accident stumbling on these games and that in itself isn't good enough. Even audyssey as a mag isn't doing the job it's meant to do because 1 it hasn't been updated regularly in god knows how long and 2 even when it is it's not distributed widely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Its called closed minds. At 09:32 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: I'm afraid I don't agree Darren. it is the stated purpose of organizations like the Rnib to generally serve and improve the lot of blind people. When a person newly goes blind, they aren't told "go off and find products that are advertized" they are introduced to the Rnib, and if they are lucky, other organizations too, to provide information, training and access to useful products. indeed recently in Britain the government has pretty much out sourced all! disability related administration to external agencies and charities. While I am not generally in favour of the "blind community" aspect of things, ie, people believing there is some special characteristic about blind people that makes them sort of like a nationality with their own identity, there is stil a need to distribute and share information and useful techniques as their is with any group of people with a specific interest or vocation. if you are interested in say for instance learning to play golf, yes, you can learn on your own, go on the net and buy your own clubs etc, but you'd be far better to join a golf club which will be able to put you in touch with golf related information, such as location of nearest links, where to buy clubs etc. To carry on this golf analogy, the Rnib is like a golf club which only advertizes a set of 5 foot long irons on the basis that that is all that is available and all that their members should be expected to use on every course. They are failing in their duty of information, and indeed in their duty of care to provide for all! blind people in the Uk. For instance, the lady I trained with with my dog was a database designer before going blind four years previously and had been a big rpg fan. When she made enquiries about accessible games, she was told only about Azabat, and not even notified that others existed. This is how the Rnib were failing in their function, sinse they were not providing correct information to her or indeed taking into account her preferences. in fact to borrow an arguement from my thesis, the Rnib were failing to acknolidge that for her, the "disability" of having a visual imparement included a frustration of her desire to play rpg games, and thus the Rnib were compounding the disability, rather than as their charter would suggest aiding it. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Actually not so many now, but there are also not so many making games either. At 09:39 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: Honestly, how many developers of games for the blind gamer can you think of that announce deadlines and don't come through on their promises or don't let gamers know what's up? Unless I read your message wrong, you make it sound as though there are quite a few, which I don't think is the case. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Trouble" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! You know its kind of hard to market something to such a small audience and spread out community. There are so many email lists that is ridiculous. Every time you think you got it covered there pops up some one that gets mad and starts another email list the same as what they left. If you don't be leave me just go to Freelists.org You will find a ton of blind lists and if you go to google or yahoo. You will find the same lists. Don't even think about the org's, because they really don't care unless they get some change! By what has ben said the org's posted on there sites as games for us to play are not only for kids but think all blind are mind set kids. This has come up in the mag years ago and the answer is still the same. They know out there of the games. i have seen lots of dead sites advertising these games. But when you have some many put games out and then change the dead sites don't. plus you have the fact that a while back there was a lot of problems with getting these games. people paid and got told shut up. Some get to little to spend and when stolen! They don't forget but do tell all they know. i don't put that blame on the community, its the developer that made that problem. They put deadlines up that they don't meet. When they should be doing it like the pro's. When the game is done there it is, as dev put out and not as community nagged! Any changes are called next version just like any other software, but the community seems to dictate how that is to be done. So do the dev's actually run and own there companies? Just like sheep that think they have a mind when all along its the dog that states the law. At 07:32 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: White stick blunkit was nothing more than a lapdog to his sighted employees. He didn't do anything for disabled people in education if anything he made it more difficult in the long run. As for games and awareness, this is a topic that I've debated so many times before. I do think that it's primarily the responsibility of the developers to promote their games. There's plenty of avinues out there like has been pointed out before not including the rnib and such organizations. Certainly for the online games that we have there's places like topwebgames.com which I know charge but I don't think they're astronomically pricy. Sadly it's people by accident stumbling on these games and that in itself isn't good enough. Even audyssey as a mag isn't doing the job it's meant to do because 1 it hasn't been updated regularly in god knows how long and 2 even when it is it's not distributed widely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Honestly, how many developers of games for the blind gamer can you think of that announce deadlines and don't come through on their promises or don't let gamers know what's up? Unless I read your message wrong, you make it sound as though there are quite a few, which I don't think is the case. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Trouble" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! You know its kind of hard to market something to such a small audience and spread out community. There are so many email lists that is ridiculous. Every time you think you got it covered there pops up some one that gets mad and starts another email list the same as what they left. If you don't be leave me just go to Freelists.org You will find a ton of blind lists and if you go to google or yahoo. You will find the same lists. Don't even think about the org's, because they really don't care unless they get some change! By what has ben said the org's posted on there sites as games for us to play are not only for kids but think all blind are mind set kids. This has come up in the mag years ago and the answer is still the same. They know out there of the games. i have seen lots of dead sites advertising these games. But when you have some many put games out and then change the dead sites don't. plus you have the fact that a while back there was a lot of problems with getting these games. people paid and got told shut up. Some get to little to spend and when stolen! They don't forget but do tell all they know. i don't put that blame on the community, its the developer that made that problem. They put deadlines up that they don't meet. When they should be doing it like the pro's. When the game is done there it is, as dev put out and not as community nagged! Any changes are called next version just like any other software, but the community seems to dictate how that is to be done. So do the dev's actually run and own there companies? Just like sheep that think they have a mind when all along its the dog that states the law. At 07:32 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: White stick blunkit was nothing more than a lapdog to his sighted employees. He didn't do anything for disabled people in education if anything he made it more difficult in the long run. As for games and awareness, this is a topic that I've debated so many times before. I do think that it's primarily the responsibility of the developers to promote their games. There's plenty of avinues out there like has been pointed out before not including the rnib and such organizations. Certainly for the online games that we have there's places like topwebgames.com which I know charge but I don't think they're astronomically pricy. Sadly it's people by accident stumbling on these games and that in itself isn't good enough. Even audyssey as a mag isn't doing the job it's meant to do because 1 it hasn't been updated regularly in god knows how long and 2 even when it is it's not distributed widely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I'm afraid I don't agree Darren. it is the stated purpose of organizations like the Rnib to generally serve and improve the lot of blind people. When a person newly goes blind, they aren't told "go off and find products that are advertized" they are introduced to the Rnib, and if they are lucky, other organizations too, to provide information, training and access to useful products. indeed recently in Britain the government has pretty much out sourced all! disability related administration to external agencies and charities. While I am not generally in favour of the "blind community" aspect of things, ie, people believing there is some special characteristic about blind people that makes them sort of like a nationality with their own identity, there is stil a need to distribute and share information and useful techniques as their is with any group of people with a specific interest or vocation. if you are interested in say for instance learning to play golf, yes, you can learn on your own, go on the net and buy your own clubs etc, but you'd be far better to join a golf club which will be able to put you in touch with golf related information, such as location of nearest links, where to buy clubs etc. To carry on this golf analogy, the Rnib is like a golf club which only advertizes a set of 5 foot long irons on the basis that that is all that is available and all that their members should be expected to use on every course. They are failing in their duty of information, and indeed in their duty of care to provide for all! blind people in the Uk. For instance, the lady I trained with with my dog was a database designer before going blind four years previously and had been a big rpg fan. When she made enquiries about accessible games, she was told only about Azabat, and not even notified that others existed. This is how the Rnib were failing in their function, sinse they were not providing correct information to her or indeed taking into account her preferences. in fact to borrow an arguement from my thesis, the Rnib were failing to acknolidge that for her, the "disability" of having a visual imparement included a frustration of her desire to play rpg games, and thus the Rnib were compounding the disability, rather than as their charter would suggest aiding it. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
You know its kind of hard to market something to such a small audience and spread out community. There are so many email lists that is ridiculous. Every time you think you got it covered there pops up some one that gets mad and starts another email list the same as what they left. If you don't be leave me just go to Freelists.org You will find a ton of blind lists and if you go to google or yahoo. You will find the same lists. Don't even think about the org's, because they really don't care unless they get some change! By what has ben said the org's posted on there sites as games for us to play are not only for kids but think all blind are mind set kids. This has come up in the mag years ago and the answer is still the same. They know out there of the games. i have seen lots of dead sites advertising these games. But when you have some many put games out and then change the dead sites don't. plus you have the fact that a while back there was a lot of problems with getting these games. people paid and got told shut up. Some get to little to spend and when stolen! They don't forget but do tell all they know. i don't put that blame on the community, its the developer that made that problem. They put deadlines up that they don't meet. When they should be doing it like the pro's. When the game is done there it is, as dev put out and not as community nagged! Any changes are called next version just like any other software, but the community seems to dictate how that is to be done. So do the dev's actually run and own there companies? Just like sheep that think they have a mind when all along its the dog that states the law. At 07:32 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: White stick blunkit was nothing more than a lapdog to his sighted employees. He didn't do anything for disabled people in education if anything he made it more difficult in the long run. As for games and awareness, this is a topic that I've debated so many times before. I do think that it's primarily the responsibility of the developers to promote their games. There's plenty of avinues out there like has been pointed out before not including the rnib and such organizations. Certainly for the online games that we have there's places like topwebgames.com which I know charge but I don't think they're astronomically pricy. Sadly it's people by accident stumbling on these games and that in itself isn't good enough. Even audyssey as a mag isn't doing the job it's meant to do because 1 it hasn't been updated regularly in god knows how long and 2 even when it is it's not distributed widely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
White stick blunkit was nothing more than a lapdog to his sighted employees. He didn't do anything for disabled people in education if anything he made it more difficult in the long run. As for games and awareness, this is a topic that I've debated so many times before. I do think that it's primarily the responsibility of the developers to promote their games. There's plenty of avinues out there like has been pointed out before not including the rnib and such organizations. Certainly for the online games that we have there's places like topwebgames.com which I know charge but I don't think they're astronomically pricy. Sadly it's people by accident stumbling on these games and that in itself isn't good enough. Even audyssey as a mag isn't doing the job it's meant to do because 1 it hasn't been updated regularly in god knows how long and 2 even when it is it's not distributed widely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
He was indeed, had been for some years. In fact unless he's retired by now he's probably still teaching. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "john" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! And this guy was certified? - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" philosophy was that the cane provides a mere ten percent of the feedback you get from your environment. I need hardly point out that te one time he made me try to cross a street without it (I'm just thankful it wasn't a busy one), I nearly had a heart attack. Hmmm, think I feel a new game idea coming on. You, as the blind hero, work your way through a sinister obsttacle course to retrieve your cane from your addle-brained instructor, then beat some sense into him with it. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Hayden Presley" mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:49 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! The issue is that they?? think that they?? now we?? know what's best for us. Other instances abound. It used to be that mobility instructors insisted on giving a cane that comes up to the user's breastbone. I stride when I walk, and those short sticks don't give me enough warning of a curb. The instructors told me that I walk too fast. My response? The cane is to match my walking pace, not set it. To walk at my? pace, I need a 60-inch cane, and I am 71 inches tall. They! do not know what's best for me. I, on the other hand, do. This is just one reason that I am, and have been, a dog guide user since 1977, and only use a cane when! I! must! But the same principle applies. In a lot of cases, it's the customer or client, not the agency, who knows what they want and why, and it's about time the agencies start listening. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the experiment they tried failed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messa
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
And this guy was certified? - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" I actually had an O&m instructor who seemed to believe quite passionately that a cane is an unnecessary tool if one relies on ones ears. His philosophy was that the cane provides a mere ten percent of the feedback you get from your environment. I need hardly point out that te one time he made me try to cross a street without it (I'm just thankful it wasn't a busy one), I nearly had a heart attack. Hmmm, think I feel a new game idea coming on. You, as the blind hero, work your way through a sinister obsttacle course to retrieve your cane from your addle-brained instructor, then beat some sense into him with it. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Hayden Presley" Lly end up using one that is at forehead height. I don't know how they expect you to walk with a caine at your breastbone either, and you hear of mobility instrictures who religiously preach the exact heigh, material, and tip for a caine. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:49 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! The issue is that they?? think that they?? now we?? know what's best for us. Other instances abound. It used to be that mobility instructors insisted on giving a cane that comes up to the user's breastbone. I stride when I walk, and those short sticks don't give me enough warning of a curb. The instructors told me that I walk too fast. My response? The cane is to match my walking pace, not set it. To walk at my? pace, I need a 60-inch cane, and I am 71 inches tall. They! do not know what's best for me. I, on the other hand, do. This is just one reason that I am, and have been, a dog guide user since 1977, and only use a cane when! I! must! But the same principle applies. In a lot of cases, it's the customer or client, not the agency, who knows what they want and why, and it's about time the agencies start listening. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've experienced some of what Dark has. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib a
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I actually had an O&m instructor who seemed to believe quite passionately that a cane is an unnecessary tool if one relies on ones ears. His philosophy was that the cane provides a mere ten percent of the feedback you get from your environment. I need hardly point out that te one time he made me try to cross a street without it (I'm just thankful it wasn't a busy one), I nearly had a heart attack. Hmmm, think I feel a new game idea coming on. You, as the blind hero, work your way through a sinister obsttacle course to retrieve your cane from your addle-brained instructor, then beat some sense into him with it. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Hayden Presley" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Hi,I usua Lly end up using one that is at forehead height. I don't know how they expect you to walk with a caine at your breastbone either, and you hear of mobility instrictures who religiously preach the exact heigh, material, and tip for a caine. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:49 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! The issue is that they?? think that they?? now we?? know what's best for us. Other instances abound. It used to be that mobility instructors insisted on giving a cane that comes up to the user's breastbone. I stride when I walk, and those short sticks don't give me enough warning of a curb. The instructors told me that I walk too fast. My response? The cane is to match my walking pace, not set it. To walk at my? pace, I need a 60-inch cane, and I am 71 inches tall. They! do not know what's best for me. I, on the other hand, do. This is just one reason that I am, and have been, a dog guide user since 1977, and only use a cane when! I! must! But the same principle applies. In a lot of cases, it's the customer or client, not the agency, who knows what they want and why, and it's about time the agencies start listening. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've experienced some of what Dark has. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Hi Jeremy. To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Hi,I usua Lly end up using one that is at forehead height. I don't know how they expect you to walk with a caine at your breastbone either, and you hear of mobility instrictures who religiously preach the exact heigh, material, and tip for a caine. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:49 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! The issue is that they?? think that they?? now we?? know what's best for us. Other instances abound. It used to be that mobility instructors insisted on giving a cane that comes up to the user's breastbone. I stride when I walk, and those short sticks don't give me enough warning of a curb. The instructors told me that I walk too fast. My response? The cane is to match my walking pace, not set it. To walk at my? pace, I need a 60-inch cane, and I am 71 inches tall. They! do not know what's best for me. I, on the other hand, do. This is just one reason that I am, and have been, a dog guide user since 1977, and only use a cane when! I! must! But the same principle applies. In a lot of cases, it's the customer or client, not the agency, who knows what they want and why, and it's about time the agencies start listening. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! > That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize > in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They > teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. > Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients > know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know > about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab > counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been > quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit > more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, > as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've > experienced some of what Dark has. > They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! > ----- Original Message - > From: "Charles Rivard" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! > > >> This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On >> the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore >> anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and >> cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to >> solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think >> is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on >> experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to >> deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do >> not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. >> >> --- >> "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "dark" >> To: "Gamers Discussion list" >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! >> >> >>> Hi Jeremy. >>> >>> To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer >>> novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr >>> in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to >>> see for yourself. >>> >>> This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, >>> azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what >>> brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog >>> training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional >>> programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about >>> audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite >>> frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. >>> >>> I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar >>> thing when they initially a
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
i completely agree with you dark, their attitude towards what blind people are and can do is sadly all too obvious. i was actually considering contacting them for resources for my extended project, however i'm not convinced how helpful that will be. While I could go on, i'll leave it be for now On 11/25/11, dark wrote: > As far as the Rnib goes darren, i don't actually think that's the reason, > sinse the people who run it are A, sighted and B, not particularly old (I > know for a fact the director is in his late 40's). > > With the Rnib, there is a very clear financial motivation. They recieve a > great deal of their money through legacy donations in people's wills. > > when i went to a "general information" day, they spend two hours drilling > into people how good it was if you left them money in your will, it was > almost laughable. > > I have even seen statistics from them that do not actually match the facts, > stating that 90 percent of blind people are over 65, which is > incorrect, sinse the last medical text I saw had it as 50 percent with > another 25 percent betwene the ages of 50 and 65. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > - Original Message - > From: "Darren Harris" > To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! > > >>I think the problem is that there's just too many elderly people at the top >> of these organizations and thus need to be kicked out in order to make way >> for everybody else because only 1 group or a very small number of groups >> and >> interests are covered. Not that they would have you believe that, but the >> evidence speaks for itself. >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On >> Behalf Of dark >> Sent: 25 November 2011 17:29 >> To: Gamers Discussion list >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! >> >> Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. >> >> right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all >> blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. >> >> They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to >> tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested >> in >> such things. >> >> They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of >> brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to >> reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. >> >> You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even >> considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. >> >> This is just what I mean about them. >> >> the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who >> loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which >> is >> >> why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers >> besides Azabat exist so frustrating. >> >> All the best, >> >> Dark. >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are a
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
As far as the Rnib goes darren, i don't actually think that's the reason, sinse the people who run it are A, sighted and B, not particularly old (I know for a fact the director is in his late 40's). With the Rnib, there is a very clear financial motivation. They recieve a great deal of their money through legacy donations in people's wills. when i went to a "general information" day, they spend two hours drilling into people how good it was if you left them money in your will, it was almost laughable. I have even seen statistics from them that do not actually match the facts, stating that 90 percent of blind people are over 65, which is incorrect, sinse the last medical text I saw had it as 50 percent with another 25 percent betwene the ages of 50 and 65. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Darren Harris" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! I think the problem is that there's just too many elderly people at the top of these organizations and thus need to be kicked out in order to make way for everybody else because only 1 group or a very small number of groups and interests are covered. Not that they would have you believe that, but the evidence speaks for itself. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 17:29 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested in such things. They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. This is just what I mean about them. the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which is why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers besides Azabat exist so frustrating. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I think the problem is that there's just too many elderly people at the top of these organizations and thus need to be kicked out in order to make way for everybody else because only 1 group or a very small number of groups and interests are covered. Not that they would have you believe that, but the evidence speaks for itself. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 17:29 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested in such things. They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. This is just what I mean about them. the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which is why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers besides Azabat exist so frustrating. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Oh yeah I agree. If you move away from what people religiously think is a standard then you're the outsider. This is especially prevalent in the blindness community I'm sad to say. It does seem to be jfw or nothing, note taker or nothing no mention of netbooks or I devices that can do the same sorts of things if not more for less, yeah the list goes on I think. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Peterson Sent: 25 November 2011 17:27 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've experienced some of what Dark has. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! > This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the > other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything > that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, > there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's > up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who > know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on > opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, > the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of > blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. > > --- > "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." > > - Original Message - > From: "dark" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! > > >> Hi Jeremy. >> >> To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer >> novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr >> in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see >> for yourself. >> >> This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, >> azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what >> brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training >> at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and >> database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer >> games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse >> she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. >> >> I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar >> thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web >> flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had >> words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved >> from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite >> limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the >> experiment they tried failed. >> >> Beware the grue! >> >> Dark. >> >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Hi Charlse. Remember here that when your talking abut the Rnib, your talking about a so called charity that, when it was at one point reviewing one of it's own hotels to see if it should remain open, had it's directors stay at the five star delux hotel across the street then close the Rnib hotel for not making a prophit! The term "law unto themselves" fits very well here. Btw, As regards canes i just find that advice weerd! I've been using a cane for the last 19 years as I learnt to use one at the age of 10, and have been all over the world with one. I was always taught they should! be shoulder hight, precisely so that you can! walk at your own pace without having to shorten your stride. Iv'e actually only just stopped using a cane this november thanks to my new firry companion (currently asleep on my foot). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I'm not sure Charles. for "what is available" a quick look at audiogames.net or pcsgames.net is pretty conclusive that there is a lot out there, and I directed them to such. i offered to put together a ful on presentation and head down to London to show them, but I got the response that most blind people were not interested in such things and it was a minority concern, and therefore not worth their time in promoting. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! So, maybe what you need is proof to back up your claims. Maybe, if enough feedback on what gamers are truly interested in, along with information showing the RNIB that such games and developers do indeed exist, were presented to the RNIB, with gamers letting the RNIB know that we would, indeed, buy such games from them if they make them available, the RNIB might get a clue. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested in such things. They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. This is just what I mean about them. the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which is why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers besides Azabat exist so frustrating. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
The issue is that they?? think that they?? now we?? know what's best for us. Other instances abound. It used to be that mobility instructors insisted on giving a cane that comes up to the user's breastbone. I stride when I walk, and those short sticks don't give me enough warning of a curb. The instructors told me that I walk too fast. My response? The cane is to match my walking pace, not set it. To walk at my? pace, I need a 60-inch cane, and I am 71 inches tall. They! do not know what's best for me. I, on the other hand, do. This is just one reason that I am, and have been, a dog guide user since 1977, and only use a cane when! I! must! But the same principle applies. In a lot of cases, it's the customer or client, not the agency, who knows what they want and why, and it's about time the agencies start listening. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've experienced some of what Dark has. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Hi Jeremy. To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the experiment they tried failed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubsc
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
So, maybe what you need is proof to back up your claims. Maybe, if enough feedback on what gamers are truly interested in, along with information showing the RNIB that such games and developers do indeed exist, were presented to the RNIB, with gamers letting the RNIB know that we would, indeed, buy such games from them if they make them available, the RNIB might get a clue. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested in such things. They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. This is just what I mean about them. the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which is why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers besides Azabat exist so frustrating. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
That's why i'd personally prefer a reviews system to a wratings one. Wratings are far too generalized, pluss of course then there is the problem of how much weight people give wratings. I tend to be a harsh wrater, thus from me very few games would get five stars, but other people may be less harsh and give five to more games. That's why i'd personally prefer written reviews over just a wratings sytem, sinse then you get people's real thoughts, not just how they personally wrate a wrating. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Ratings are good as long as the reasons for those ratings are also given. I might see a rating of 2 out of 5, and go elsewhere, not knowing that the rating was given due to the simplistic nature of the game. If a reason for the rating was that it is a good game for beginning computer gamer because it is not very complex and not very challenging, I might go ahead and get it for someone as a Christmas present because they are also getting a computer but don't know much about them yet. So, not only is a rating system important, but the reasons for the ratings is of equal importance. JMO. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hi Dark, Well, for starts I honestly can't blame you. The reasons you mentioned is precisely why I don't own any of the Azabat games. I can get most of the same games from Jim Kitchen, Spoonbill, etc for free so there is no insentive for me to buy and play something I personally would find less entertaining. The way I would handle this situation is introduce some kind of rating system for the games on audiogames.net. A fantastic game might earn 5 out of 5 stars and a game like the Azabat games might rate 2 out of 5 stars. Someone looking for games might see the lower rating and look elsewhere for the same game with a higher rating. That's generally how most websites compare products that are similar but one might not measure up in quality with the other one. Basically, what I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with a little criticism here as long as you keep it A, professional, and B, it is constructive criticism. You could have a write up describing the features the Azabat games have, run directly from cd, are all self-voicing, and contains this or that other feature. Then, you can review the game below and say that the games didn't meet your expectations. They lacked this or that feature, and in your opinion game x by so and so is a better deal for reasons x, y, and z. HTH On 11/25/11, dark wrote: I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name o
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Would it be a lot of work to keep the site updated? --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "QuentinC" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hello, Why not make audiogames.net upgrade a little and let the users rate and comment each game, directly on their respective pages ? I think this is kind of standard feature present on allmost regular gaming community website. I know that you can't directly change something in that area, but it's maybe time for audiogames.net to evolve: allow users to do more things, as well as clearing up the database of old, incorrect or inappropriate entries. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
that does sound true bryan, and though it's not quite as pervasive in the Uk those sorts of opinions are around, - though I was happy when i did the general Q and A session about Hal at the It training charity where my friend works, that they knew very well about several options for screen readers and anyone who came to them would be allowd to try out the different products for themselves. With jaws though, I can at least acknolidge that even if! an organization just promotes the use of Jaws, they're at least giving people something that wil satisfy expectations and allow people to do most things they want. But as with the lady I mentioned, by only! recognizing the existance of Azabat with their aime to provide games for less able players, the Rnib are actually giving people a false idea of audio games generally. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Ratings are good as long as the reasons for those ratings are also given. I might see a rating of 2 out of 5, and go elsewhere, not knowing that the rating was given due to the simplistic nature of the game. If a reason for the rating was that it is a good game for beginning computer gamer because it is not very complex and not very challenging, I might go ahead and get it for someone as a Christmas present because they are also getting a computer but don't know much about them yet. So, not only is a rating system important, but the reasons for the ratings is of equal importance. JMO. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hi Dark, Well, for starts I honestly can't blame you. The reasons you mentioned is precisely why I don't own any of the Azabat games. I can get most of the same games from Jim Kitchen, Spoonbill, etc for free so there is no insentive for me to buy and play something I personally would find less entertaining. The way I would handle this situation is introduce some kind of rating system for the games on audiogames.net. A fantastic game might earn 5 out of 5 stars and a game like the Azabat games might rate 2 out of 5 stars. Someone looking for games might see the lower rating and look elsewhere for the same game with a higher rating. That's generally how most websites compare products that are similar but one might not measure up in quality with the other one. Basically, what I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with a little criticism here as long as you keep it A, professional, and B, it is constructive criticism. You could have a write up describing the features the Azabat games have, run directly from cd, are all self-voicing, and contains this or that other feature. Then, you can review the game below and say that the games didn't meet your expectations. They lacked this or that feature, and in your opinion game x by so and so is a better deal for reasons x, y, and z. HTH On 11/25/11, dark wrote: I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music am
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Unfortunately Charles you've hit the nale on the head. right from the age of 7 I've tried to point out to the Rnib that not all blind people are eldily, but they've taken small notice. They for example refused to help or even offer suggestions on access to tabletop rp, they claimed that I was the only person who'd be interested in such things. They had a similar response when i asked them about the possibility of brailling fighting fantasy gamebooks, and when I tried to get them to reccord more literature that would be favourable to younger people. You can get braille knitting patterns from them, but they don't even considder the possibility someone would want a tactile role playing dice. This is just what I mean about them. the problem is in the Uk, they are the first port of call for anyone who loses their vision, and thus their word has a great deal of weight, which is why I find the fact that they refuse to acknolidge that other developers besides Azabat exist so frustrating. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
That's why, to get a little bit off topic here (and for that I apologize in advance), I don't like a lot of the voc rehab agencies in the US. They teach their clients to use JAWS, which in itself is all well and good. Where the problem lies is that they don't necessarily let said clients know that there are in fact other options available even if they do know about them. I got the vocal equivalent of a raised eyebrow from my rehab counselor when I told her I'd switched over to Window-Eyes and have been quite happy with it now for about four years. And I've gotten quite a bit more than a vocal raised eyebrow from others, both in voc rehab and not, as though I'd committed some inexcusable transgression. So I've experienced some of what Dark has. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Hi Jeremy. To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the experiment they tried failed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
This is where getting the word out about what's available come in. On the other hand, if an organization has a closed mind, and they ignore anything that does not fit their? concepts of what blind people can and cannot do, there's a problem, and it's not up to the game developers to solve. It's up to professionals and customers, and here's what I think is the key, who know what they're talking about through hands-on experience, to work on opening the closed minds. For an organization to deny, through ignorance, the existence of developer's products that do not fit into their mold of blind people is reprehensibly inexcusable. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled! Hi Jeremy. To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the experiment they tried failed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Hi i have quite a few of the azabat games and although i find them ok i would agree that for a gamer who is advanced it's probley not advanced inuff for them. I wish more of these flash games like legacy would be made more accessable. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Hi Jeremy. To answer your question, Azabat's aime of providing games for computer novices is not made expressly clear on the site, though it does appearr in their faq and other documentation, see http://www.azabat.co.uk/ to see for yourself. This issue however is compounded by the fact that according to the Rnib, azabat are the only! company producing audio comptuer games, indeed what brought Azabat back to my mind was that the lady doing guide dog training at the same time I am, who worked as a professional programmer and database designer before losing her site was asking about audio computer games and told only Azabat existed, and was indeed quite frustrated sinse she was previously a pretty high capacity gamer. I know the company Gamevial based in scotland were told a very similar thing when they initially asked the Rnib about making some of the web flash games they make accessible, indeed until I phoned them and had words they didn't even think anyone had attempted audio games that moved from a first person perspective, though being as they had quite limited exposure from the Rnib and from others thought that the experiment they tried failed. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Charles raises the same point I would have made, and one that Dark may also be considering as a reason behind his original post. I have not played your games either, but the first thing I would want to know if whether you openly explain the simplicity of your games in their descriptions. Targeting the most novice computer users is perfectly fine, and in fact commendable since they have a smaller selection, but they would need to be advertised as such. I think each of us would hate to order a book only to have it turn out to be one aimed at 4 year olds. Since the most novice computer users don't even come close to representing the majority, the responsibility of declaring them as the target audience falls to the game developer. Because that claim is expected, and doesn't sound like it has been made, it gives the illusion that the game is targeting average computer users. This might be what has caused the negative reaction here on the list. If you bought a book from a children's section of a store, you would not be upset when presented with 1 simple sentence on each page. If however you had picked that book up from the adult section you would be quite irritated and feel like you had been ripped off. I think that if the games' descriptions do not explain which group they are for, then it runs a high risk of offending the average person who happens to try them. As I said before, I have not played any of these games. If the descriptions do actually explain that they are intended for the most novice of computer users then I apologize in advance. > I have never played any of your > games, so I apologize for not knowing. Do you state > the audience your games are geared toward in documentation > about your games on your site? If not, this might > avoid possible disappointment of customers who are looking > for more advanced and challenging games. Also, as for > not having to type your answers into the computer, and not > having a scoring feature, wouldn't this increase replay > value and add excitement? Games can be used as a tool for > learning to use a computer, and typing your words into the > game would be just such a feature to improve one's typing > and computer skills. > > Also, have you considered creating games for the more > advanced gamers in order to increase your share of the blind > computer gaming market? These are the first thoughts > that came to my mind as I read your response to previous > posts, and your input is appreciated. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I have never played any of your games, so I apologize for not knowing. Do you state the audience your games are geared toward in documentation about your games on your site? If not, this might avoid possible disappointment of customers who are looking for more advanced and challenging games. Also, as for not having to type your answers into the computer, and not having a scoring feature, wouldn't this increase replay value and add excitement? Games can be used as a tool for learning to use a computer, and typing your words into the game would be just such a feature to improve one's typing and computer skills. Also, have you considered creating games for the more advanced gamers in order to increase your share of the blind computer gaming market? These are the first thoughts that came to my mind as I read your response to previous posts, and your input is appreciated. Thanks. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "Steve Crawford" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hmm, how long has it been since I sent you that "free stuff" for review? Must be a couple of years or more, I think. I'm just glad you didn't get around to writing your review sooner... I'm quite surprised by what I read here. I always thought you were more logical and level headed but I really struggle to understand where this apparent hostility is aimed. You seem resent the fact that the RNIB sell my products, but in a later post you openly criticise them and call them "pathetic". Sounds like a bad case of "sour grapes". Yes, the RNIB sell my games, but I can't see why you have an issue with this. Are you trying to say that because they sell my games they wouldn't want to sell anybody else's? Can you explain why? Surely the fact that they have opened their doors to an independent developer means that they would be more willing to consider selling other people's games as well. Personally, I would welcome it if some of the other developers here approached the RNIB and got them to sell their games. Regarding the Kountdown game - for the benefit of those who don't know it, the player chooses up to 9 letters then has 30 seconds to try to make the longest possible word - I fail to see the point of asking the user to type in the word they found. Who are they trying to prove it to? I watch the TV show sometimes and I shout out the word I found. I don't write it down or type it into a computer to prove I found it. If you find a 7 letter word you don't need to type it into the computer because all the computer will say is "yes, you found a 7 letter word". It's only going to tell you what you already know. I have plenty of testimonials from people - old and young - who have enjoyed playing my games over the years. I appreciate that some people on this list may find some them simplistic - they are, after all, designed for computer novices (ie people who don't know how to use a screen reader, can't touch-type, etc). Steve -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 10:43 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Well I've suggested it to Richard and Sander, sinse I do think it would be cool to get reviews especially because! the descriptions in the database have to be relatively unbiased. I hope it'll come eventually, but unfortunately that decision is up to them. Frankly though, if it were a matter of reviews, I don't think I'd waste my time with Azabat anyway, sinse if I wrote a review I'd want it to be about a game with both good and bad points that I could offer a decent opinion of, rather than something which I can only really be negative about. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
I believe Dark is talking about the Audiogames.net game database though. For the database entries that Dark does, there really isn't any place for a review. I think a review section would be pretty cool, but that's a lot of work go add one so I don't think it will happen any time soon. > Because they sent you free copies of > their games so that you could critique them in a review, to > me, you are not to be positive in your review. You are > to be open-mindedly honest. Otherwise, you are > inaccurate. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appalled!
Because they sent you free copies of their games so that you could critique them in a review, to me, you are not to be positive in your review. You are to be open-mindedly honest. Otherwise, you are inaccurate. --- "Security is not the absence of danger. It is the presence of the Lord." - Original Message - From: "dark" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:42 AM Subject: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and lots of other great customization features (I'm quite a fan of the game actually). The only really sad thing, is that while people like Jim Kitchin, 7-128 Manu and Ian humphries have done far better things even in the traditional games line, at a far more reduced price, Azabat are the ones the bloody rnib sponsor! this! is! ridiculous! Sorry about the wrant, but I really! needed to get that out of my system. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
