Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi mich. I'd be very interested to read that book if you can find the name of the author. My phd thesis is on the subject of disability, trying to write a new deffinition which isn't simply based upon social atitudes, so a book like that would be helpful, though also frankly it just sounds interesting for it's own sake too. beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Mich" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hi Dark. I can tell you that hear in Canada the cnib is just like the rnib in the uk it is hard to get them to do anything and they just care about old people. there is a vary good book on this topic cald The Politicks of Blindness by a blind guy who is from the uk and he now lives in Canada and works as a phisieo therapist. the intro to this book is written by David blunket. from Mich. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible sinse they are a law unto themselves. heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 years and mostly completely failed! I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the government or disability organizations. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Dark. I can tell you that hear in Canada the cnib is just like the rnib in the uk it is hard to get them to do anything and they just care about old people. there is a vary good book on this topic cald The Politicks of Blindness by a blind guy who is from the uk and he now lives in Canada and works as a phisieo therapist. the intro to this book is written by David blunket. from Mich. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible sinse they are a law unto themselves. heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 years and mostly completely failed! I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the government or disability organizations. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Just one thing I want to mention, Bookshare offers as many books as you can download (i've done 30 in one sitting). They're amazingly prompt (I downloaded a 1.25 mb brf file the day after the book came out in stores) with their releases. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward While I understand your frustration with the RNIB I think a lot of the problem is you only have one agency in the U.K. redistributing materials for the blind. In the USA, for example, there are several different agencies where accessible aids, braille books, and software products can be obtained. For example, if I need books in accessible format I have three sources to check. I can call up the Learning Alley--formally RFB&D--and see if they have it in braille, in audio, or scanned text. Failing that I can check American Printing House which has thousands of books in braille as well. For general reading the library of congress has thousands of books in audio, braille, and some in daisy format too. So I'm not exactly tied to any specific agency if I want a certain sci-fi book chances are one of the agencies above, most likely the Library of Congress, will have it in some accessible format. Plus that's not my only choices these days. Since Bookshare started up I can pay a flat rate of $50 per year and download 10 scanned books a month and read them on my computer or convert them to braille using a braille translator and send them to a braille printer for printing. With access to Bookshare its made my personal reliance on the three agencies above less essential because often times a popular book such as Harry Potter will be posted on Bookshare a day or two after it hits stores meaning I don't have to wait for the Library of Congress or Learning Alley to record it, braille it, whatever. With Bookshare anything you want is fairly easy to obtain because people of similar interests are donating and editing their scanned books for download in daisy format. As far as software and other products goes again there are several choices here in the USA. There is Independant Living Aids, Maxi Aids, LS&S, and a few others I could name. So there is some competition between them and some incentive to carry more products, services, and better pricing than the other guy. RNIB doesn't seem to have that kind of competition and can do whatever they want. They are a monopoly over there customers and if there were someone else doing the same thing with better services for younger people RNIB would probably have to compete. Cheers! On 11/25/11, dark wrote: Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible sinse they are a law unto themselves. heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 years and mostly completely failed! I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the government or disability organizations. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi, Yeah, I am aware you can download more than 10, I'm not exactly sure what the limit is these days, but I was just trying to point out I can download several books from Bookshare and listen to them via a daisy reader, convert them to braille, and print them out etc. It makes going to Learning Alley, APH, and the Library of Congress of secondary importance to what you can grab via a Bookshare subscription. Thanks for clarifying the number of books point though. Cheers! On 11/25/11, Valiant8086 wrote: > Hi. > I like your opinions on this topic, but you do state that you can > download 10 scanned books per month from bookshare, but it's more than > that, in fact I believe it might be 200. I know I've downloaded more > than 10 in one sitting before. I'll find a series and grab the whole > series right then and there so I don't have to keep firing up WiFi on my > Braille Plus to snare another book to read. Just downloaded about 30 > books in 15 minutes about a week ago actually. Just wanted to make sure > you were aware you don't have to stop at 10. > > Sent with Thunderbird 3.1.14 portable. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi. I like your opinions on this topic, but you do state that you can download 10 scanned books per month from bookshare, but it's more than that, in fact I believe it might be 200. I know I've downloaded more than 10 in one sitting before. I'll find a series and grab the whole series right then and there so I don't have to keep firing up WiFi on my Braille Plus to snare another book to read. Just downloaded about 30 books in 15 minutes about a week ago actually. Just wanted to make sure you were aware you don't have to stop at 10. Sent with Thunderbird 3.1.14 portable. On 11/25/2011 12:56 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, While I understand your frustration with the RNIB I think a lot of the problem is you only have one agency in the U.K. redistributing materials for the blind. In the USA, for example, there are several different agencies where accessible aids, braille books, and software products can be obtained. For example, if I need books in accessible format I have three sources to check. I can call up the Learning Alley--formally RFB&D--and see if they have it in braille, in audio, or scanned text. Failing that I can check American Printing House which has thousands of books in braille as well. For general reading the library of congress has thousands of books in audio, braille, and some in daisy format too. So I'm not exactly tied to any specific agency if I want a certain sci-fi book chances are one of the agencies above, most likely the Library of Congress, will have it in some accessible format. Plus that's not my only choices these days. Since Bookshare started up I can pay a flat rate of $50 per year and download 10 scanned books a month and read them on my computer or convert them to braille using a braille translator and send them to a braille printer for printing. With access to Bookshare its made my personal reliance on the three agencies above less essential because often times a popular book such as Harry Potter will be posted on Bookshare a day or two after it hits stores meaning I don't have to wait for the Library of Congress or Learning Alley to record it, braille it, whatever. With Bookshare anything you want is fairly easy to obtain because people of similar interests are donating and editing their scanned books for download in daisy format. As far as software and other products goes again there are several choices here in the USA. There is Independant Living Aids, Maxi Aids, LS&S, and a few others I could name. So there is some competition between them and some incentive to carry more products, services, and better pricing than the other guy. RNIB doesn't seem to have that kind of competition and can do whatever they want. They are a monopoly over there customers and if there were someone else doing the same thing with better services for younger people RNIB would probably have to compete. Cheers! On 11/25/11, dark wrote: Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible sinse they are a law unto themselves. heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 years and mostly completely failed! I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the government or disability organizations. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Tom. that is in fact what I've tried to do, and what my usual policy with writing entries is. take a look at the azabat entries on the database and tell me what you think. my usual operating procedure is if I want to say something good I say it, where as if I want to say something bad I don't, all while giving as much pure information as seems needed. Bewre the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hi Dark, Which makes sense. I do realize as the administrator you do have to be non-biased when writing up descriptions/entries for the games and I see the problem. Were I in that situation I would have a similar personal conflict of interest. Its not easy writing up a completely non-bias entry or description of a game or product you don't personally enjoy. Still, it can be done. Back in college I took a marketing'/communications class and one of the projects we had to do is try and advertise/sell a product we didn't personally like but were hired to advertise. Which could happen in real life, and what I learned from that experience is just to stick to the facts. Go through flesh out what you feel are the most important qualities of the products and try and present those the best you can. For instance, you might say something like this. "Azabat Games Volume X. Contains Blackjack, Hangman, Target, and Drafts. This collection of games have been designed for the novice blind or low vision computer user. No complicated setups or installs. Just put the cde in the drive and select the game you want to play. All games are self-voicing and do not need a screen reader or additional SAPI voices to play. Costs $45 USD." As you can see that's pretty barebones but I just fleshed out the essentials, presenting only what needed to be said without adding unnecessary commentary that could be positive or negative. HTH On 11/25/11, dark wrote: Hi Tom. As I said, I like the idea of a reviews section for each page, thus allowing people to see what other gamers think of games, - I'd indeed write some reviews myself, however the entries I wish to keep as none biased as possible, sinse their main purpose is information not opinion. this is what in fact has caused the issue here, sinse my work as admin of audiogames.net means I be none biased, while my personal thoughts and opinions are obviously my own, and these two things really need to be separated on the sight. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Tom. For books, remember that the situation and law in the states is very different to that over here. In I believe 1949, the Us government posted a bill that rights to printed materials for print disabled people was a governmental initiative and began the library of congress funded with government money. in the Uk however, the government said it was the publishers' responsability, and up until 2005 for a book to be made in accessible form publication rights had to be bought, or at least given. While there are a couple of other library agencies, such as Caliber cassette library, (who are now on cd), only the rnib really had the money to afford the fees from publishers through their talking book or braille services. now the law has been changed, however the resources aren't really available at the moment to other agencies. that's the situation with books. More generally though I think the thing comes down to out sourcing. the Uk government for the last 20 or so years has been trying to fob off services for a hole range of disabilities onto external charitable agencies. So if your physically impared and need a home help, they'll come from an agency or local charity not from any sort of government scheme. thus, the government has affectively given most of the administration of anything to do with blind people over to the Rnib. They are who anyone becoming newly blind is referd to, and even run their own schools (which is another topic I could discourse on). The result of this is that other agencies exist, how much publicity they get, and how much their outlook is seen is variable at best, and usually simply depends upon either A, how resourcesful an individual is in looking outside what the Rnib unilaterally provide, or B, what their local authority or local Blindness related charity know about such things. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Dark, Which makes sense. I do realize as the administrator you do have to be non-biased when writing up descriptions/entries for the games and I see the problem. Were I in that situation I would have a similar personal conflict of interest. Its not easy writing up a completely non-bias entry or description of a game or product you don't personally enjoy. Still, it can be done. Back in college I took a marketing'/communications class and one of the projects we had to do is try and advertise/sell a product we didn't personally like but were hired to advertise. Which could happen in real life, and what I learned from that experience is just to stick to the facts. Go through flesh out what you feel are the most important qualities of the products and try and present those the best you can. For instance, you might say something like this. "Azabat Games Volume X. Contains Blackjack, Hangman, Target, and Drafts. This collection of games have been designed for the novice blind or low vision computer user. No complicated setups or installs. Just put the cde in the drive and select the game you want to play. All games are self-voicing and do not need a screen reader or additional SAPI voices to play. Costs $45 USD." As you can see that's pretty barebones but I just fleshed out the essentials, presenting only what needed to be said without adding unnecessary commentary that could be positive or negative. HTH On 11/25/11, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > As I said, I like the idea of a reviews section for each page, thus allowing > people to see what other gamers think of games, - I'd indeed write some > reviews myself, however the entries I wish to keep as none biased as > possible, sinse their main purpose is information not opinion. this is what > in fact has caused the issue here, sinse my work as admin of audiogames.net > means I be none biased, while my personal thoughts and opinions are > obviously my own, and these two things really need to be separated on the > sight. > > Beware the grue! > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Dark, While I understand your frustration with the RNIB I think a lot of the problem is you only have one agency in the U.K. redistributing materials for the blind. In the USA, for example, there are several different agencies where accessible aids, braille books, and software products can be obtained. For example, if I need books in accessible format I have three sources to check. I can call up the Learning Alley--formally RFB&D--and see if they have it in braille, in audio, or scanned text. Failing that I can check American Printing House which has thousands of books in braille as well. For general reading the library of congress has thousands of books in audio, braille, and some in daisy format too. So I'm not exactly tied to any specific agency if I want a certain sci-fi book chances are one of the agencies above, most likely the Library of Congress, will have it in some accessible format. Plus that's not my only choices these days. Since Bookshare started up I can pay a flat rate of $50 per year and download 10 scanned books a month and read them on my computer or convert them to braille using a braille translator and send them to a braille printer for printing. With access to Bookshare its made my personal reliance on the three agencies above less essential because often times a popular book such as Harry Potter will be posted on Bookshare a day or two after it hits stores meaning I don't have to wait for the Library of Congress or Learning Alley to record it, braille it, whatever. With Bookshare anything you want is fairly easy to obtain because people of similar interests are donating and editing their scanned books for download in daisy format. As far as software and other products goes again there are several choices here in the USA. There is Independant Living Aids, Maxi Aids, LS&S, and a few others I could name. So there is some competition between them and some incentive to carry more products, services, and better pricing than the other guy. RNIB doesn't seem to have that kind of competition and can do whatever they want. They are a monopoly over there customers and if there were someone else doing the same thing with better services for younger people RNIB would probably have to compete. Cheers! On 11/25/11, dark wrote: > Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible > sinse they are a law unto themselves. > > heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 > years and mostly completely failed! > > I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the > chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or > B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, > namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit > around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that > produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused > to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. > > Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the > netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more > places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the > government or disability organizations. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
So would I, dark. I've always been a fan of audio games, but I want to contribute to the community myself in a proper fashion, such as working in partnership with a g.net -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 17:32 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! sinse this has come up as such a major reminder I'll bring the issue to Sanders' attention, sinse maybe he can cobble up some sort of temporary fix, such as having a reviews room on audiogames.net with pages for each entry for people to submit review topics. it would certainly help with separating opinions from information, indeed I'd be glad to write up some myself. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4638 - Release Date: 11/25/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4638 - Release Date: 11/25/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Quentin. this was something we discussed actually 18 months or so ago, so I'm hoping it's in the works, sinse while I would like the descriptions to stay unbiased I deffinately think community in put with reviews would be a good thing. This is however up to Sander and Richard to work out (I myself would have no idea how to code something like this). As to clean up, well hopefully you'll have noticed that has actually been happening, see the last few site updates for details. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "QuentinC" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hello, Why not make audiogames.net upgrade a little and let the users rate and comment each game, directly on their respective pages ? I think this is kind of standard feature present on allmost regular gaming community website. I know that you can't directly change something in that area, but it's maybe time for audiogames.net to evolve: allow users to do more things, as well as clearing up the database of old, incorrect or inappropriate entries. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
I am in complete agreement with you, dark. I am absolutely, since the azabat games are "pathetic games for old people" as your phrasing goes. And I can't believe that they get away with ripping us off for "bad games" even though there are far better games out there. Ben. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 10:43 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and lots of other great customization features (I'm quite a fan of the game actually). The only really sad thing, is that while people like Jim Kitchin, 7-128 Manu and Ian humphries have done far better things even in the traditional games line, at a far more reduced price, Azabat are the ones the bloody rnib sponsor! this! is! ridiculous! Sorry about the wrant, but I really! needed to get that out of my system. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4638 - Release Date: 11/25/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4638 - Release Date: 11/25/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hello, Why not make audiogames.net upgrade a little and let the users rate and comment each game, directly on their respective pages ? I think this is kind of standard feature present on allmost regular gaming community website. I know that you can't directly change something in that area, but it's maybe time for audiogames.net to evolve: allow users to do more things, as well as clearing up the database of old, incorrect or inappropriate entries. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
sinse this has come up as such a major reminder I'll bring the issue to Sanders' attention, sinse maybe he can cobble up some sort of temporary fix, such as having a reviews room on audiogames.net with pages for each entry for people to submit review topics. it would certainly help with separating opinions from information, indeed I'd be glad to write up some myself. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Tom. As I said, I like the idea of a reviews section for each page, thus allowing people to see what other gamers think of games, - I'd indeed write some reviews myself, however the entries I wish to keep as none biased as possible, sinse their main purpose is information not opinion. this is what in fact has caused the issue here, sinse my work as admin of audiogames.net means I be none biased, while my personal thoughts and opinions are obviously my own, and these two things really need to be separated on the sight. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Dark, That definitely would help here. As you say what we need is some non-biased opinions in a case like this, and although I am sure I can give one it still wouldn't be too favorable to the games. First of all, I don't own any of the Azabat games myself so my opinions would be largely based on second or third hand information which wouldn't necessarily be my own, and would reflect what I heard rather than experienced. Second, as I generally have rather high standards anyway I tend to be more critical of games and developers who don't fall into that set of standards. This hasn't exactly made me popular with other accessible game developers because nobody likes their work to be criticized by other developers including me. So if audiogames.net could have some way where user's could leave feedback, reviews, comments, etc a new gamer could hear what people actually think of the games both good and bad from a playability standpoint. Cheers! On 11/25/11, dark wrote: > That was the sort of thing I was thinking, rather like the gamefaqs reviews > system, so that the description would be none biased but people would know > that if they hit rviews they got others opinions. > > hopefully Sander and Richard will add it at some point in the future. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Dark, Well, for starts I honestly can't blame you. The reasons you mentioned is precisely why I don't own any of the Azabat games. I can get most of the same games from Jim Kitchen, Spoonbill, etc for free so there is no insentive for me to buy and play something I personally would find less entertaining. The way I would handle this situation is introduce some kind of rating system for the games on audiogames.net. A fantastic game might earn 5 out of 5 stars and a game like the Azabat games might rate 2 out of 5 stars. Someone looking for games might see the lower rating and look elsewhere for the same game with a higher rating. That's generally how most websites compare products that are similar but one might not measure up in quality with the other one. Basically, what I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with a little criticism here as long as you keep it A, professional, and B, it is constructive criticism. You could have a write up describing the features the Azabat games have, run directly from cd, are all self-voicing, and contains this or that other feature. Then, you can review the game below and say that the games didn't meet your expectations. They lacked this or that feature, and in your opinion game x by so and so is a better deal for reasons x, y, and z. HTH On 11/25/11, dark wrote: > I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games > for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much > available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously > overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've > got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old > blind people!" > > Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means > playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat > did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I > could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for > their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry > for their second volume, word games. > > We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien > adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the > azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and > deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. > > then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no > fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. > > Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from > random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called > link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. > > What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring > system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, > a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create > one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer > even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that > it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely > insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve > them in your head! > > In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to > manage! > > As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did > send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely > low my job is extremely difficult! > > Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while > aime, but how novice are we talking here? > > heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me > to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got > her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed > was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install > wizard. > > What planet are Azabat on? > > Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version > thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and > lots of other great customization features (I'm quite a fan of the game > actually). > > The only really sad thing, is that while people like Jim Kitchin, 7-128 Manu > and Ian humphries have done far better things even in the traditional games > line, at a far more reduced price, Azabat are the ones the bloody rnib > sponsor! > > this! is! ridiculous! > > Sorry about the wrant, but I really! needed to get that out of my system. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can b
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
hi Steve. my issue as far as the Rnib goes is that they refuse to recognize that other products, including frree programs exist. As I said I was contacting them as representative of audiogames.net and more to show that audio based computer games do exist and are playable for blind people. however they catagorically refused to listen, this though is not new sinse they have refused to listen on innumerable other issues too, right from when i phoned them at the age of 7 to ask for more sf books to be made available in audio. I'd certainly be pleased if another developer such as David greenwood of Gma could in fact get cd versions of his games distributed by the rnib, but it is more the fact that they seem to have decided what audio games are and fixed with it. As to your own games, well I have explained the reasons behind my cryticisms in the hopes that perhaps matters could be improved in the future. While I do accept as I said that my first message was hastily worded, I would much rather discuss the what are to me the shortcomings of a situation and try to reach some sort of resolution than simply have what I said dismissed. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hey Dark, Your approach to getting the RNIB to sell audio games is all wrong. Complaining about the lack of options isn't going to work. The RNIB aren't going to start phoning up developers with offers to sell their programmes. It's up to the individual developer to create a product that the RNIB can sell (ie something tangible, like a CD-Rom) and to approach them with it, wait for them to evaluate it, and give them the USP - detailing pricing structure, returns policy, etc. That's what I did. Seriously, if there's a developer out there who wants help and advice in getting their stuff into the RNIB I'm happy to be contacted off list. As for my products, I've received enough testimonials from people of all ages to know that I'm doing something worthwhile. Steve -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 15:46 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hello steve. i freely admit my initial post may have been somewhat over frustrated, however please allow me to explain. I actually have! approached the rnib in connection with not just selling other people's games, but promoting audio computer games in general. Their response "well most blind people wouldn't like them" This is as I said because in my experience the rnib shows litle interest in visually impared people who do not conform to their idea of what visually impared people should be. Rather than tayloring their service to what is required or available, they have one single idea they stick to and ignore anything that does not conform with it. i'm afraid this opinion is born out by considderable experience which I would be glad to detail, not the least of which is bringing these concerns before the rnib themselves and being roundly ignored time after time. As to your games specifically, perhaps if I can explain my frustration in a more rational manner. While I accept that you write games expressly for computer novices, so they run from the cd, have logical controls, grids that do not wrap etc, my frustration is caused by the fact that the games themselves! appear to be simplified, indeed one might almost say dumbed down, and thus perpetuating sterriotypes concerning blind and visually impared people. Even if we limit ourselves only to the field of traditional or puzle based games, your games often lack options or choices which are taken as standard not only in other versions of similar games produced by other developers, but also in games generally. For instance a score system and records of previous games, in certain games the ability to customize the difficulty etc. While I freely accept that having a player presented with many options to customize games can indeed be confusing, this to me does not automatically mean such options should be missed. For example, In Ian Humphries bg braniac (a concentration style game similar to your own memory), there is the option to have lots of different board sizes, have the player gain points for correct matches, decide whether one or two pairs are on the board at the same time etc, however it is also possible to simply start the program and bang the enter key to play with the default settings, or to use only one of the settings keys sinse each is tied to a different function key. The fact that more options exist does not take away from the simplicity of the game, but adds extra customization to it for those who wish such a thing. As I said, I truly thank you for the demo cd and free games, and I'll certainly do my best to write none biased descriptions as is my professional duties to audiogames.net. however, on a personal level I must confess I find your approach of missing out possible complexity and customization, to be rather lacking in it's scope, especially considdering that unlike some of the other traditional games available, yours are comparatively expensive to buy (this isn't to say such things should be free, only that given the price that your charging I feel you could possibly add more to the games). While I freely accept that gamers of different skill levels and intentions exist, it does seem unfortunately as far as the Azabat games are concerned, they operate only to the lowest common denominator, rather than, as would be the case with something like the Spoonbill games or several of Jim Kitchins, working on a basis of appealing to as wide a cross section as possible. While I am sorry if my previous message was over hasty, and I do accept that I may have been more frustrated than considder, I do however think there is a legitimate point here, and indeed I'm extremely pleased that you are on this list and are able to discuss it openly. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
That was the sort of thing I was thinking, rather like the gamefaqs reviews system, so that the description would be none biased but people would know that if they hit rviews they got others opinions. hopefully Sander and Richard will add it at some point in the future. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
I do feel the site could benefit from an actual reviews section. Then people could! express their honest opinions. You could have a link to the reviews on each game's page but they wouldn't just be right there on the same page with the description. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Well Darren the only Vi organizations I really have time for over here are action for blind people and guide dogs, - though as I've just got my first dog I would say that :D. As to what you are charlese recommend, remember that the descriptions on audiogames.net aren't reviews. I could write reviews, indeed i well might do so for the audeasy mag, but that's not what the descriptions are for. I see them as intended to describe the basic functions of a game, provide people with information, and useful links, and let people know generally how a game works in a relatively none biased way. This is why when I'm describing a game which I personally do not enjoy but which other people may like, i try to be careful, indeed that's why I've been looking up information about the topspeed versions, sinse even though I myself am not a fan of those games as racing is not particularly soemthing that interests me, I want to give a good, informational entry for each. Azabat however are really! stretching my none biased approach :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hello steve. i freely admit my initial post may have been somewhat over frustrated, however please allow me to explain. I actually have! approached the rnib in connection with not just selling other people's games, but promoting audio computer games in general. Their response "well most blind people wouldn't like them" This is as I said because in my experience the rnib shows litle interest in visually impared people who do not conform to their idea of what visually impared people should be. Rather than tayloring their service to what is required or available, they have one single idea they stick to and ignore anything that does not conform with it. i'm afraid this opinion is born out by considderable experience which I would be glad to detail, not the least of which is bringing these concerns before the rnib themselves and being roundly ignored time after time. As to your games specifically, perhaps if I can explain my frustration in a more rational manner. While I accept that you write games expressly for computer novices, so they run from the cd, have logical controls, grids that do not wrap etc, my frustration is caused by the fact that the games themselves! appear to be simplified, indeed one might almost say dumbed down, and thus perpetuating sterriotypes concerning blind and visually impared people. Even if we limit ourselves only to the field of traditional or puzle based games, your games often lack options or choices which are taken as standard not only in other versions of similar games produced by other developers, but also in games generally. For instance a score system and records of previous games, in certain games the ability to customize the difficulty etc. While I freely accept that having a player presented with many options to customize games can indeed be confusing, this to me does not automatically mean such options should be missed. For example, In Ian Humphries bg braniac (a concentration style game similar to your own memory), there is the option to have lots of different board sizes, have the player gain points for correct matches, decide whether one or two pairs are on the board at the same time etc, however it is also possible to simply start the program and bang the enter key to play with the default settings, or to use only one of the settings keys sinse each is tied to a different function key. The fact that more options exist does not take away from the simplicity of the game, but adds extra customization to it for those who wish such a thing. As I said, I truly thank you for the demo cd and free games, and I'll certainly do my best to write none biased descriptions as is my professional duties to audiogames.net. however, on a personal level I must confess I find your approach of missing out possible complexity and customization, to be rather lacking in it's scope, especially considdering that unlike some of the other traditional games available, yours are comparatively expensive to buy (this isn't to say such things should be free, only that given the price that your charging I feel you could possibly add more to the games). While I freely accept that gamers of different skill levels and intentions exist, it does seem unfortunately as far as the Azabat games are concerned, they operate only to the lowest common denominator, rather than, as would be the case with something like the Spoonbill games or several of Jim Kitchins, working on a basis of appealing to as wide a cross section as possible. While I am sorry if my previous message was over hasty, and I do accept that I may have been more frustrated than considder, I do however think there is a legitimate point here, and indeed I'm extremely pleased that you are on this list and are able to discuss it openly. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hmm, how long has it been since I sent you that "free stuff" for review? Must be a couple of years or more, I think. I'm just glad you didn't get around to writing your review sooner... I'm quite surprised by what I read here. I always thought you were more logical and level headed but I really struggle to understand where this apparent hostility is aimed. You seem resent the fact that the RNIB sell my products, but in a later post you openly criticise them and call them "pathetic". Sounds like a bad case of "sour grapes". Yes, the RNIB sell my games, but I can't see why you have an issue with this. Are you trying to say that because they sell my games they wouldn't want to sell anybody else's? Can you explain why? Surely the fact that they have opened their doors to an independent developer means that they would be more willing to consider selling other people's games as well. Personally, I would welcome it if some of the other developers here approached the RNIB and got them to sell their games. Regarding the Kountdown game - for the benefit of those who don't know it, the player chooses up to 9 letters then has 30 seconds to try to make the longest possible word - I fail to see the point of asking the user to type in the word they found. Who are they trying to prove it to? I watch the TV show sometimes and I shout out the word I found. I don't write it down or type it into a computer to prove I found it. If you find a 7 letter word you don't need to type it into the computer because all the computer will say is "yes, you found a 7 letter word". It's only going to tell you what you already know. I have plenty of testimonials from people - old and young - who have enjoyed playing my games over the years. I appreciate that some people on this list may find some them simplistic - they are, after all, designed for computer novices (ie people who don't know how to use a screen reader, can't touch-type, etc). Steve -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 10:43 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and lots of other great customization
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Well John, that's a possibility, however I've already contacted them so they'll know who I am, and even if I mailed them anonymously, they'll probably just put me down to a random nutter and continue what they're doing anyway, where as if I introduced myself as audiogames.net admin, I can legitimately claime to know something about accessible games. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi John. i am in fact trying to be honest about their games, without being negative. So in the word games entry I point out the lack of interaction, and mention that there are no difficulties in their battle ship game, but it's stil difficult. saying "you can't interupt the speech" is a negative comment, and thus far too biased for a description. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Unfortunately Jeremy getting the rnib to do anything is near impossible sinse they are a law unto themselves. heck I've tried to get them to record sf and fantasy books for the last 22 years and mostly completely failed! I suspect the reasons that they are behind azabat are either because A, the chap himself has some sort of personal connection with their management, or B, because Azabat have very much the same outlook as rnib do on blindness, namely that all blind people are doddery old biddies who just want to sit around, knit and play cards all day. Remember this is an organization that produce a magazine of braille knitting patterns, but catagorically refused to produce braille manuals for tabletop rp when I asked. Unfortunately, as far as disability goes, places like the Us, the netherlands, Most of scandanavia, Germany and probably quite a few more places are far more ahead of the Uk in terms of atitude, whether that's the government or disability organizations. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Well Darren the only Vi organizations I really have time for over here are action for blind people and guide dogs, - though as I've just got my first dog I would say that :D. As to what you are charlese recommend, remember that the descriptions on audiogames.net aren't reviews. I could write reviews, indeed i well might do so for the audeasy mag, but that's not what the descriptions are for. I see them as intended to describe the basic functions of a game, provide people with information, and useful links, and let people know generally how a game works in a relatively none biased way. This is why when I'm describing a game which I personally do not enjoy but which other people may like, i try to be careful, indeed that's why I've been looking up information about the topspeed versions, sinse even though I myself am not a fan of those games as racing is not particularly soemthing that interests me, I want to give a good, informational entry for each. Azabat however are really! stretching my none biased approach :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Were you to email them, just don't mention the site. For all they know, your a representing only yourself. - Original Message - From: "dark" I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "give them a bad wrating" sinse audiogames.net doesn't have a general wratings sytem, though that's a good idea in itself. You can list games as favourites but that's it. i can't however say bad things about them on the games entry page whatever I feel, sinse the site is supposed to be an overview of all! accessible games, not simply the ones I, or any of the other people who make pages like. i freely admit some entries might be a litle more enthusiastically written than others, but generally I go on a basis of trying to be as positive as possible, and where I cannot be positive simply limit myself to writing a plane description and do not add any negative comments (part of the reason I wanted to have my wrant here on list). I forget whether your in the Uk darren, but the rnib iis! indeed pathetic, indeed if your not over 65 and likely to leave them money in your will they're pretty much not interested in your existance. They most recently attempted to sell me a talking alarm clock which was impossible to set for a blind person on the basis that "my carer" could set it, when I asked them "what carer?" they simply said that most blind people had them. The sad thing though is that if you phoned the rnib, who are the main blind organization in the Uk and asked about audiogames, you'd just get directed streight to azabat and that would be it. That is another reason why i'm so appauled at the quality of Azabat's games. I'm seriously tempted to either E-mail or phone up Azabat and tell them just what I think of them, accept I'd not want to get audiogames.net into trouble. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
While I can ssee your obligation to them, it might be worth taking a round-about method to point out some of those things. IN addition to what you said, there's no way to stop the speech. - Original Message - From: "dark" I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and lots of other great customization features (I'm quite a fan of the game actually). The only really sad thing, is that while people like Jim Kitchin, 7-128 Manu and Ian humphries have done far better things even in the traditional games line, at a far more reduced price, Azabat are the ones the bloody rnib sponsor! this! is! ridiculous! Sorry about the wrant, but I really! needed to get that out of my system. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Dark, is there any way to prevent rnib from doing that? I just wonder if they are somehow paying off the right people to hold that monopoly. > Hi Darren. > > I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "give them a bad > wrating" sinse audiogames.net doesn't have a general > wratings sytem, though that's a good idea in itself. > > You can list games as favourites but that's it. > > i can't however say bad things about them on the games > entry page whatever I feel, sinse the site is supposed to be > an overview of all! accessible games, not simply the ones I, > or any of the other people who make pages like. > > i freely admit some entries might be a litle more > enthusiastically written than others, but generally I go on > a basis of trying to be as positive as possible, and where I > cannot be positive simply limit myself to writing a plane > description and do not add any negative comments (part of > the reason I wanted to have my wrant here on list). > > I forget whether your in the Uk darren, but the rnib iis! > indeed pathetic, indeed if your not over 65 and likely to > leave them money in your will they're pretty much not > interested in your existance. > > They most recently attempted to sell me a talking alarm > clock which was impossible to set for a blind person on the > basis that "my carer" could set it, when I asked them > "what carer?" they simply said that most blind people had > them. > > The sad thing though is that if you phoned the rnib, who > are the main blind organization in the Uk and asked about > audiogames, you'd just get directed streight to azabat and > that would be it. That is another reason why i'm so appauled > at the quality of Azabat's games. > > I'm seriously tempted to either E-mail or phone up Azabat > and tell them just what I think of them, accept I'd not want > to get audiogames.net into trouble. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Lol yeah I know what the rnib are like, it's like gdba but I won't go into that on list. I have gripes with both organizations. Yeah am in the uk. I agree with what Charles says though, you need to be accurate. Don't sugar coat anything. To hell with the rnib to be honest because they just aren't worth it. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 13:14 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! Hi Darren. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "give them a bad wrating" sinse audiogames.net doesn't have a general wratings sytem, though that's a good idea in itself. You can list games as favourites but that's it. i can't however say bad things about them on the games entry page whatever I feel, sinse the site is supposed to be an overview of all! accessible games, not simply the ones I, or any of the other people who make pages like. i freely admit some entries might be a litle more enthusiastically written than others, but generally I go on a basis of trying to be as positive as possible, and where I cannot be positive simply limit myself to writing a plane description and do not add any negative comments (part of the reason I wanted to have my wrant here on list). I forget whether your in the Uk darren, but the rnib iis! indeed pathetic, indeed if your not over 65 and likely to leave them money in your will they're pretty much not interested in your existance. They most recently attempted to sell me a talking alarm clock which was impossible to set for a blind person on the basis that "my carer" could set it, when I asked them "what carer?" they simply said that most blind people had them. The sad thing though is that if you phoned the rnib, who are the main blind organization in the Uk and asked about audiogames, you'd just get directed streight to azabat and that would be it. That is another reason why i'm so appauled at the quality of Azabat's games. I'm seriously tempted to either E-mail or phone up Azabat and tell them just what I think of them, accept I'd not want to get audiogames.net into trouble. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi Darren. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "give them a bad wrating" sinse audiogames.net doesn't have a general wratings sytem, though that's a good idea in itself. You can list games as favourites but that's it. i can't however say bad things about them on the games entry page whatever I feel, sinse the site is supposed to be an overview of all! accessible games, not simply the ones I, or any of the other people who make pages like. i freely admit some entries might be a litle more enthusiastically written than others, but generally I go on a basis of trying to be as positive as possible, and where I cannot be positive simply limit myself to writing a plane description and do not add any negative comments (part of the reason I wanted to have my wrant here on list). I forget whether your in the Uk darren, but the rnib iis! indeed pathetic, indeed if your not over 65 and likely to leave them money in your will they're pretty much not interested in your existance. They most recently attempted to sell me a talking alarm clock which was impossible to set for a blind person on the basis that "my carer" could set it, when I asked them "what carer?" they simply said that most blind people had them. The sad thing though is that if you phoned the rnib, who are the main blind organization in the Uk and asked about audiogames, you'd just get directed streight to azabat and that would be it. That is another reason why i'm so appauled at the quality of Azabat's games. I'm seriously tempted to either E-mail or phone up Azabat and tell them just what I think of them, accept I'd not want to get audiogames.net into trouble. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] I'm appauled!
Hi dark, Then give them a bad rating then simple. But then again it's oh lets give the blind more word games to play or simple simon for 5 year olds. No wonder the rnib sponser them. They're probably full of nappy happy blinkies who don't know any better so they think everybody else is the same. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 25 November 2011 10:43 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] I'm appauled! I must admit I've been very slow about writing entries for the Azabat games for audiogames.net, basically because most of the games are pretty much available in better versions elsewhere and azabat are ridiculously overpriced, in fact as I've said before I think the only reason they've got where they are is because they present "audio games for pathetic old blind people!" Nevertheless, unfortunately the job of maintaining the database means playing and writing about bad games as well as good ones, and sinse Azabat did send me both their demo cd and some free copies of their games so that I could write about them, I do feel I need to give them a reasonable run for their money, however today I really! had trouble when writing up the entry for their second volume, word games. We all know that everyone from jim kitchin to even the online game alien adoption agency has versions of Hangman, and other than ntoicing that the azabat version of the game actually has fewer customizations (and deffinately fewer fun sfx), than jims, I'll move on. then there is Targit, exactly the same game as bg word targit, but with no fun sfx or music, and fewer customization options. Anagrams, the count down letters and numbers game where you form words from random letters or a targit number from random numbers, and a game called link words resembling Dan Z's chainlink game. What appauled me here, is that none! of these games has even a scoring system! you don't type in solutions, you just get presented with an anagram, a number targit and that's it. The technology is planely there to create one, sinse Hangman and word targit have a score system, and the computer even has the ability to work out solutions to all the problems meaning that it could! determine whether your right or wrong, but for some completely insane reason you don't type in your answers, you just are supposed to solve them in your head! In the name of all that's reasonable, why is a score! system! so hard to manage! As I said, I do want to try and make the best of azabat because they did send me some free stuff, but when the quality of their games is so insanely low my job is extremely difficult! Yes, making games that are not complex for computer novices is a worth while aime, but how novice are we talking here? heck, my mum is about as computer novice as you get (she regularly phones me to ask things like how to copy files or open mail attachments), yet I've got her Ian Humphries psudoku games and she's quite able to play them, indeed was able to install them pretty easily too thanks to the microsoft install wizard. What planet are Azabat on? Even their one really unique game backgamman now has a far superior version thanks to Manu of Pontes games, with online play, sfx, music ambience and lots of other great customization features (I'm quite a fan of the game actually). The only really sad thing, is that while people like Jim Kitchin, 7-128 Manu and Ian humphries have done far better things even in the traditional games line, at a far more reduced price, Azabat are the ones the bloody rnib sponsor! this! is! ridiculous! Sorry about the wrant, but I really! needed to get that out of my system. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
