Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Bojan Smojver]

Personally, I've always admired people that have the guts to write fast, secure 
and flexible software (e.g. Postfix) in C. Java is a trade off in many ways, 
some of which might be acceptable and some of which might not, depending on 
your current taste. My understanding is that GNU people are coming up with 
their own libraries, so not all is lost (maybe). It's just that this double 
effort is totally unneccessary, if only Sun could understand that.

As for switching to .NET, I have trouble swallowing anything coming from MS, 
especially specifications. I don't have a very strong opinion about Sun, except 
that I can't understand the fact that Java still isn't GPL-ed and placed in 
control of some foundation like Apache. But you could be right, it could be too 
late already.

We can always go back to C and rewrite the whole of Jakarta in it. There would 
be a lot of vomiting, but hey, life is a trade off, isn't it?

Bojan

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2/4/02 9:53 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hmmn.  So what is the significance?  What does this mean for
> implementations?  Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
> others from implementing it?  What are the worse case scenarios?   What
> is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?
> 
> Aaron

If only I wasn't under an NDA and could forward the proposed license to
you...

-jon


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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Aaron Smuts]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:29 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
> 
> on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> > (JCACHE).
> >
> > Aaron
> 
> Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person
there
> about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
> 
> Simple:
> 
> JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle
will
> own
> the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
> wildly.

Hmmn.  So what is the significance?  What does this mean for
implementations?  Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
others from implementing it?  What are the worse case scenarios?   What
is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?

Aaron

> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> (JCACHE).
> 
> Aaron

Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there
about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.

Simple:

JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own
the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
wildly.

-jon


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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Aaron Smuts]

Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
(JCACHE).

Aaron

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of
> Kevin A. Burton
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:48 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> 
> >
> > But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API
> like
> > javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets.
Nota,
> that
> > these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which
make
> me
> > and others pretty bad.
> 
> Yes... I couldn't agree more.  SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
> proprietary and continually bloats the JDK.  Thanks guys ! :(
> 
> > Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
> instead of
> > just software.
> 
> ... SUN and "learn" shouldn't be in the same sentence :)
> 
> Kevin
> 
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
>  Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> 
> But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like
> javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that
> these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me
> and others pretty bad.

Yes... I couldn't agree more.  SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
proprietary and continually bloats the JDK.  Thanks guys ! :(

> Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of
> just software.

... SUN and "learn" shouldn't be in the same sentence :)

Kevin

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 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> > 
> > Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
> > mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
> 
> The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like
> a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
> (neither do online polls)...
> 
> The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on
> their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
> concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

Well there really isn't any place to organize an effort like this... AKA
java-is-dead :)

... and yes I agree.  SUN is VERY stubborn even when faced with an inevitable
fact of life.

I just don't want to scrap all the Java work I have done over the last few
years just because SUN managers can't pull their heads out of the sand :(

Kevin

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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 20:12, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 2/4/02 8:00 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> >> 
> >> I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be
> >> on the server...
> >>  
> > 
> > whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again.
> > 
> >> Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :)
> >>  
> > 
> > And a rapid fire reset button.
> > 
> 
> There are three, right?  CTL, ALT and DEL?
> 
> :)
> 

ahh yes.  4 if you count the one on the case.  

> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the past
> two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts don't
> impact the viability of that effort. "
> - Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform Services
>  Sun Microsystems
> 
> 
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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/4/02 8:00 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>> 
>> I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be
>> on the server...
>>  
> 
> whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again.
> 
>> Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :)
>>  
> 
> And a rapid fire reset button.
> 

There are three, right?  CTL, ALT and DEL?

:)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the past
two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts don't
impact the viability of that effort. "
- Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform Services
 Sun Microsystems


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> 
> I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be
> on the server...
>  

whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again.  

> Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :)
>  

And a rapid fire reset button.

> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
> 
> 
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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 16:58, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Sorry for the X-post.
> 

Then don't do it.

> I just created a new mailing list:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> You can sign up here:
> 
> http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead
> 
> ...
> 
> Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> 
> Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
> even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?
> 
> Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?
> 

Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
to get back at SUN?  Heck no.  

> Do you *hate* the JCP?
> 

probably too strong a word.

> Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
> bloating it beyond belief?
> 

no.  I think the VM needs a few new *well engineered* features.

> Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?
> 

I think so...I'm not always sure about that.

> Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?
> 

perhaps.

> ... 
> 
> I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> 

no offense but if java is dead, why would you want a mailing list to
beat a dead horse?  

> Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
> mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
> 



> Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
> site.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> - -- 
> Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
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> 
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> - Emiliano Zapata
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- fix java generics!


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> > I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps.
>
> It would seem to be slightly outside Jakarta's mission statement
>
>
>
> Jakarta is a Project of the Apache Software Foundation, charged with the
> creation and maintenance of commercial-quality, open-source, server-side
> solutions for the Java Platform, based on software licensed to the
> Foundation, for distribution at no charge to the public.
>
> with the probable failing principal being "server-side".  I don't really
> object or anything.  Just pointing that out.

Ants out of scope too not to mention half the other projects at jakarta ;) 
Alternatively we can fabricate reasons for projects to stay - ant is used to 
build serverside projects thus it supports the server-side aspect.

Jesktop is used as client of server-side projects and thus it supports the 
server-side aspect ;)

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Re: a tool for java api documentation

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:20, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > on 2/3/02 10:12 PM, "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if you have the time, i would be very interested in
> > > (and would very much appreciate) your thoughts
> > > and feedback on dbdoc.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Eitan Suez
> > > Programmer
>
> 
>
> > Other than that, cool software...I don't see a link to download the
> > source code though...:-( Until you provide that link, it is useless to
> > advertise it here as it makes you look kind of funny...:-)
>
> I think that this is Javadoc with modifications.  The Javadoc license
> doesn't allow one to release the modified source code.

You may want to have a look at xdoclet at sourceforge. They are in the 
process of rewriting a Doclet-like engine but better. 

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Re: a tool for java api documentation

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2/4/02 4:23 PM, "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> the dbdoc gui is jsp/template-based, which makes
> it much easier to maintain, revise, and/or enhance.

To bad you didn't use Velocity, then I would believe your claim.

:-)

Anyway, when are you going to make this cool tool available as open source?

:-)

I might even be interested in helping you convert it to Velocity.

:-)

-jon


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Re: a tool for java api documentation

[Eitan Suez]

The goal of dbdoc is the same as javadoc's:  to produce documentation
and make it accessible via a web browser.  Forcibly then there must exist
similarities between the two.  dbdoc actually uses javadoc at runtime to
generate the in-memory object model of java packages.  so i see it more as
an
evolution or customization of javadoc rather than a replacement of javadoc.

> I think that this is Javadoc with modifications.  The Javadoc license
doesn't
> allow one to release the modified source code.

I use the doclet mechanism to extract documentation information.
The doclet api provides a clear demarcation between the
javadoc code and the customizations.

One essential design difference between dbdoc and javadoc
is the fact that dbdoc uses a database.  this creates two
significant advantages in dbdoc:

  1. the ability to build api documentation incrementally, where a
   single repository is used for multiple api's and where the various
   api's are actually cross-referenced.

  2. content becomes searchable

i understand that these may not be significant differences to many
developers.  but have you ever wondered why the sun site does not
provide a single location to browse their javadocs?

the other major difference i do not mention is that if you view the
gui using ie 5.5 or 6.0, you will see a radically different implementation
of the gui.  this is another by-product of the design difference between
javadoc and dbdoc.  the dbdoc gui is jsp/template-based, which makes
it much easier to maintain, revise, and/or enhance.  i believe
that javadoc's html doclet suffers from the same problems of the servlet
days (before template mechanisms were introduced) where the html is
generated using inline println() statements.

/ eitan

- Original Message -
From: "Kevin A. Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: a tool for java api documentation


> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > on 2/3/02 10:12 PM, "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > if you have the time, i would be very interested in
> > > (and would very much appreciate) your thoughts
> > > and feedback on dbdoc.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Eitan Suez
> > > Programmer
> 
>
> > Other than that, cool software...I don't see a link to download the
source
> > code though...:-( Until you provide that link, it is useless to
advertise it
> > here as it makes you look kind of funny...:-)
>
> I think that this is Javadoc with modifications.  The Javadoc license
doesn't
> allow one to release the modified source code.
>
> PS... thanks SUN! :(
>
> Kevin
>
> - --
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
>  Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/4/02 7:04 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 09:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> Paul Hammant wrote:
>>> 
>>> What rules do you want changed?
>>> 
>>> 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF
>>> attentions.
>>> 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools
>> 
>> These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where
>> I can find them?  ;-)
>> 
>>> Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e.
>>> will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) )
>> 
>> Nothing is a foregone conclusion.  Quoting from "www.apache.org":
>> 
>>The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community
>>of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized
>>by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and
>>pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software
>>that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a
>>group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers
>>and users.
>> 
>> I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps.
>> 
> 
> It would seem to be slightly outside Jakarta's mission statement
>

I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be
on the server...
 
Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :)
 

-- 
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System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 09:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Paul Hammant wrote:
> >
> > What rules do you want changed?
> >
> > 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF
> > attentions.
> > 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools
> 
> These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where
> I can find them?  ;-)
> 
> > Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e.
> > will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) )
> 
> Nothing is a foregone conclusion.  Quoting from "www.apache.org":
> 
>The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community
>of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized
>by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and
>pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software
>that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a
>group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers
>and users.
> 
> I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps.
> 

It would seem to be slightly outside Jakarta's mission statement 



Jakarta is a Project of the Apache Software Foundation, charged with the
creation and maintenance of commercial-quality, open-source, server-side
solutions for the Java Platform, based on software licensed to the
Foundation, for distribution at no charge to the public.


with the probable failing principal being "server-side".  I don't really
object or anything.  Just pointing that out.


> >>Warning: that's a trick question.  If you want to take initiative and move
> >>jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful.  If you want to
> >>take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you
> >>will ultimately be successful.  If you want to take initiative and work to
> >>get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful.
> >>
> >>The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number
> >>of hours in a day.
> >>
> >Three assertions - a, b & c.  (a) true, (b) subject to project-status
> >and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above.
> 
> Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form "if only
> these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they
> would attract a community".  Such proposals generally get politely turned
> away.
> 
> > You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish?
> 
> Actually, no.  At least not given the information you have provided before.
> Specifically, the comment about being "sidetracked with Enterprise Object
> Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time)."  But this
> has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above.
> 
> I can't resist closing this with the following:
> 
>In "The Wizard of Oz", Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She
>visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing
>the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends
>accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover
>that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows
>much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all
>along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers
>together saying, "There's no place like home."
> 
>Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she
>alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him?
>Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something,
>that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily
>accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house
>we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins
>where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way
>to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our
>own path toward home.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[hgo]

> The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list
> sounds
> like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against
> Sun
> (neither do online polls)...
> 
> The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then
> pound
> on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get
> them to
> concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

I hope that Sun will recall from its previous mistakes, like
putting Solaris in OSS just when Linux was so widely used on Unix
boxes that it became a de-facto reference in business even considered
by IT.

May be they will wake-up when MS .NET will start to populate
70% of the Web Services of the Planet, at that time they'll propose 
Java to OSS.

But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for
servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use 
the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad.

Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
instead of just software.


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> 
> Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
> mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.

The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
(neither do online polls)...

The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

-jon


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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[hgo]

+1 

We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example
of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real
OSS and ASF spirit defensor 


jean-frederic clere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real
> "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-*
> projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 

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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[hgomez]

+1 

We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example
of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real
OSS and ASF spirit defensor 


jean-frederic clere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real
> "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-*
> projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 

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Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Sorry for the X-post.

I just created a new mailing list:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You can sign up here:

http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead

...

Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?

Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?

Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?

Do you *hate* the JCP?

Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
bloating it beyond belief?

Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?

Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?

... 

I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.

Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.

Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
site.

Kevin

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 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
- Emiliano Zapata

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RE: To jvote or not to jvote

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:

> But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only
> Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
> +1s all sent to "jvote".
>
> How should this be fixed?

I fear by having to be manually be going through the archives careully.

Thanks for compiling the checklist below !

As an extra safeguard - the 3 volunteers will send out a message to
general@ with what they think is the proper list on the 7th. With a 48
hours to correct exactly this sort of thing.

Dw

> This is what I see in "general":
> (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)
>
>  - Ted Husted
>  The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".
>
>  - Stefan Bodewig
>  - Conor MacNeill
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>  (I think that both are still missing votes.)
>
>  - Scott Sanders
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Sam Ruby
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Peter Donald
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Paulo Gaspar
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Morgan Delagranje
>  Only his acceptance went to "jvote".
>
>  - Geir Magnusson
>  Enough votes went to "jvote".
>
>  - Diane Holt
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Craig McClanahan
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
>  - Costin Manolache
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> >
> > > Why? What are the rules?
> >
> > See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> > is clearer.
> >
> > What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> > from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> > be run in the election.
> >
> > Dw.
> >
> >
> > T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> > February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> > nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> > from the nominee being received.
> >
> > ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> > description about who you are, what you want to
> > accomplish.
> >
> > ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> > message confirming that you are accepting the
> > nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> >
> > ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> > wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> > you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> > he or she would consent of course.)
> >
> > ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> > be nominated.
> >
> > ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> > the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
>
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>


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Re: Broken Link On Struts Page

[Ted Husted]

The best place to post a message like this is the Struts-DEV list. Each
subproject maintains their own area of the Web site. 

But in this case, I'll take care of it :-)

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Java Web Development with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> FYI -
> 
> On this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources.html,
> the link called "StrutsResourcesChecker" to this page:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources/checker.html is
> broken.
> 
> David
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 

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Re: a tool for java api documentation

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> on 2/3/02 10:12 PM, "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > if you have the time, i would be very interested in
> > (and would very much appreciate) your thoughts
> > and feedback on dbdoc.
> > 
> > Sincerely,
> > Eitan Suez
> > Programmer


> Other than that, cool software...I don't see a link to download the source
> code though...:-( Until you provide that link, it is useless to advertise it
> here as it makes you look kind of funny...:-)

I think that this is Javadoc with modifications.  The Javadoc license doesn't
allow one to release the modified source code.

PS... thanks SUN! :(

Kevin

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The dawn is rising on a new day!
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Broken Link On Struts Page

[dpwhite]

FYI -

On this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources.html,
the link called "StrutsResourcesChecker" to this page:
http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources/checker.html is
broken.

David

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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1 

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]En
> nombre de jean-frederic clere
> Enviado el: lunes 4 de febrero de 2002 18:59
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a 
> real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the 
> jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

For additional commands, e-mail:



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Re: To jvote or not to jvote

[Morgan Delagrange]

ARE two +1 votes necessary?  That was not mentioned in the original email
"Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002".  (Just to stave off any
potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how
elections are run.  It's not our call.)

- Original Message -
From: "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote


> Thanks Dirk.
>
>
> But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only
> Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
> +1s all sent to "jvote".
>
> How should this be fixed?
>
>
> This is what I see in "general":
> (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)
>
>  - Ted Husted
>  The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".
>
>  - Stefan Bodewig
>  - Conor MacNeill
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>  (I think that both are still missing votes.)
>
>  - Scott Sanders
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Sam Ruby
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Peter Donald
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Paulo Gaspar
>  Nothing went to "jvote".
>
>  - Morgan Delagranje
>  Only his acceptance went to "jvote".
>
>  - Geir Magnusson
>  Enough votes went to "jvote".
>
>  - Diane Holt
>  Only the nomination went to "jvote".
>
>  - Craig McClanahan
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
>  - Costin Manolache
>  Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> >
> > > Why? What are the rules?
> >
> > See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> > is clearer.
> >
> > What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> > from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> > be run in the election.
> >
> > Dw.
> >
> >
> > T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> > February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> > nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> > from the nominee being received.
> >
> > ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> > description about who you are, what you want to
> > accomplish.
> >
> > ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> > message confirming that you are accepting the
> > nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> >
> > ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> > wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> > you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> > he or she would consent of course.)
> >
> > ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> > be nominated.
> >
> > ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> > the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Bojan Smojver]

Another legend. +1 by all means.

Bojan

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 04:59, jean-frederic clere wrote:
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 



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RE: To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Dirk.


But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only 
Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
+1s all sent to "jvote".

How should this be fixed?


This is what I see in "general":
(I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)

 - Ted Husted
 The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".

 - Stefan Bodewig
 - Conor MacNeill
 Nothing went to "jvote".
 (I think that both are still missing votes.)

 - Scott Sanders
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Sam Ruby
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Peter Donald
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Paulo Gaspar
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Morgan Delagranje
 Only his acceptance went to "jvote".

 - Geir Magnusson
 Enough votes went to "jvote".

 - Diane Holt
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Craig McClanahan
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

 - Costin Manolache
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> 
> > Why? What are the rules?
> 
> See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> is clearer.
> 
> What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> be run in the election.
> 
> Dw.
> 
> 
> T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> from the nominee being received.
> 
> ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> description about who you are, what you want to
> accomplish.
> 
> ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> message confirming that you are accepting the
> nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> 
> ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> he or she would consent of course.)
> 
> ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> be nominated.
> 
> ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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RE: To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Dirk.


But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only 
Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
+1s all sent to "jvote".

How should this be fixed?


This is what I see in "general":
(I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)

 - Ted Husted
 The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".

 - Stefan Bodewig
 - Conor MacNeill
 Nothing went to "jvote".
 (I think that both are still missing votes.)

 - Scott Sanders
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Sam Ruby
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Peter Donald
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Paulo Gaspar
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Morgan Delagranje
 Only his acceptance went to "jvote".

 - Geir Magnusson
 Enough votes went to "jvote".

 - Diane Holt
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Craig McClanahan
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

 - Costin Manolache
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> 
> > Why? What are the rules?
> 
> See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> is clearer.
> 
> What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> be run in the election.
> 
> Dw.
> 
> 
> T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> from the nominee being received.
> 
> ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> description about who you are, what you want to
> accomplish.
> 
> ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> message confirming that you are accepting the
> nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> 
> ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> he or she would consent of course.)
> 
> ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> be nominated.
> 
> ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Morgan Delagrange]

I accept this nomination, which was originally sent to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.  Thanks Rod!

- Original Message -
From: "Waldhoff, Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Jakarta General List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange


> I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC.  He's a founding
> member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of
> some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial
amount
> of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects.
>


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Re: To jvote or not to jvote

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:

> >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.

> Why? What are the rules?

See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
is clearer.

What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
be run in the election.

Dw.


T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
from the nominee being received.

->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
description about who you are, what you want to
accomplish.

->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
message confirming that you are accepting the
nomination - with again - some details about yourself.

->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
he or she would consent of course.)

->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
be nominated.

->  The nomination must include the email address of
the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)



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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/4/02 12:59 PM, "jean-frederic clere"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> 

+1

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

>From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.

Why?
What are the rules?

If they all should, then a lot are missing!


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Paulo Gaspar]

I second that nomination.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of jean-frederic clere
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the 
> jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

[Guillaume Rousse]

Ainsi parlait Kimbro Staken :
> On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 08:46 AM, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > I don't think this is really a *benefit* of Java software. Nothing
> > prevent a
> > native software to provide staticaly-linked binaries of make for every
> > existing platforms in CVS. The fact that one only ant binary for Java
> > software is enough doesn't make it an acceptable practice.
>
> This is absolutely a benefit of Java software. While it was technically
> possible to do this for C projects it was practically infeasible. In Java
> it is entirely feasible and works just fine in the majority of cases.
Perl is also multi-platforms, and doesn't rely on blind code duplication 
everyhwere, AFAK. Instead, they use dependencies.

> > Keeping track of dependencies is the task of a package management system,
> > which only exist for Unix AFAK, while Java is multi-platform. But when
> > this
> > means 'propagating nasty platforms-specific constraints everywhere', i
> > think
> > we reach limits of cross-platform possibilities :-)
>
> The issue raised was not a technical one, it was legal. Trying to put in a
> complex technical solution for it is overkill. The current mechanism works
> just fine in almost all cases. It may not be ideal, but so what; It still
> removes a lot more headaches then it creates.
The current system is simple and functionnal, right, but it is ugly. And it 
is *really* a nightmare for people wanting to have a proper packaging policy, 
as Linux distribution for instance.

> > Users relying on packaged software just have to use apt-get (for debian
> > packages) or uprmi (for rpms packages) to have automated dependencies
> > resolution, remote package fetching, and so on.
>
> What about the 99% of the world that uses a platform that isn't Linux?
In open-source world this is usually *a bit* more. And there have been 
proposition recently of extending rpm use to any Unix. See 
http://www.openpkg.org

> > Ensuring a consistent set of jars is not the task of developpers IHMO,
> > but of
> > packagers and distributers. Moreover, unless you are strictly
> > self-dependant,
>
> So how is an Apache project not a packager and distributer? The
> perspective that open source should only be concerned with the perspective
> of the developer is not a good one.
Apache project is only a distributer for apache project software. Java world 
is not limited to ASF :-)

> Plus, developers are not the only people who pull the code from CVS. I
> cringe at the thought of having to ensure that everybody who uses our CVS
> tree also needs to manually update dependencies as the software evolves.
Why manually ? You have ant task for this...

> In the current mechanism the system always works. If the source changes
> such that it depends on an updated jar a simple CVS update will bring not
> only the source change but the updated jar as well. You always know that
> the software is supposed to build out of the box and that if it doesn't
> then someone is on the hook for breaking the build. To say that this isn't
> a unique benefit of Java is  simply not true.
The current mechanism also force you sometimes to use out-dated software, 
just because developpers were not aware of compatibility breaks. It happened 
recently with ArgoUML, which could not work with xerces-j > 1.2., which was a 
nightmare to figure.
This is clearly a developper task, not a user task. Projects as gump try to 
achieve the same result.

> > If a dependency becomes unavailable, i think there is a reason behind
> > (obsolescence, upgrade, security hole, etc). By short-circuiting the
> > effect,
> > you prevent normal evolution to takes place.
>
> Or it could simply be a network failure or server crash or maybe the
> software moved or maybe the person who made it available changed their
> mind and pulled it. Regardless of the reason you still have the dependency
> and the software is now useless to the user trying to install it.
>
> > Jpackage project (http://package.org) try to provide such a consistent
> > set of
> > java software for rpm world. Debian java project
>
> Heh heh, as I write this, this site is down. :-)
My fault, it's http://www.jpackage.org, or http://jpackage.sourceforge.net

> > (http://people.debian.org/~tora/java/packagelist.html) provide the same
> > service for debian world. Both try also to enforce nomal Unix conventions
> > (FHS, etc...) and establish cross-project packaging policies. We all know
> > this only adress a subset of java realm, so we don't ask for dropping
> > other
> > platforms support. We just ask to make it an optional additional layer,
> > not
> > make it mandatory as it is currently...
>
> I'm kind of disappointed. You suggested that we break all of our software
> by removing all the jars from CVS and then offer a solution that will only
> work for an extremely small percentage of the user population. Very
> disappointing.
My proposition was rather: as we are currently cleaning the CVS, why not jump 

RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hi Tim!

This is good news indeed: someone took the time to actually read a message
and respond to it, instead of sending 100's of nonsensical one-liners  ;)

Answer inline.

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Hi Alex,
> 
> You ask why I think it's important to distinguish between the
> characteristics of a remote call and a local one.
> 
> One of the nicest things on this topic I found is a paper from Sun
> themselves -
> http://research.sun.com/technical-reports/1994/sml1_tr-94-29.pdf

Having just browsed over the document, it seems a bit (quite logically) out
of date. Nowadays, if you are running a web application, your users are used
to big delays and latencies, and so putting up with a few more milliseconds
will not bother them.

> From the date, I would think that Sun were in the initial 
> stages of thinking
> about how to do remote calls in java, and RMI was probably in 
> the gestation
> stage (anyone knowing the dates of all that better, please 
> correct me !).
> And I imagine that this paper, which is about the characteristics of
> distributed computing, and which makes a case for *not* trying to make
> remote calls transparent, was on the losing side of the argument. My
> suspicion is that it was marketing thinking that actually 
> pushed the remote
> model to where it is today.

As a matter of fact, NeXT had been doing remote proxies for a few years:
NeXT Computer, Inc. NeXTSTEP Object-Oriented Programming and the Objective C
Language, Release 3. Reading, Mass: Addison-Wesley, 1993.

The remote model was moving at full speed at the time.

> It's a while since I read the paper, and I remember feeling 
> it didn't go
> quite far enough: my own thoughts are that when you ask a 
> remote machine to
> do something, you don't necessarily want to suspend your 
> thread till it
> completes, and when the remote machine responds, it doesn't 
> necessarily want
> to have completed all the work involved in your request, nor 
> does it want to
> be restricted to responding just once, or with only a single 
> value. And it
> might want to queue your request up if it's busy. And if it 
> doesn't have the
> resources it needs to do what you asked, it might want to 
> tell you about
> different situations in different ways, without wanting to throw an
> Exception. Sort of subtler than a local call.

Most of this can be done if you use asynchronous messaging wisely, and do
synchronous calls only when necessary -- appropriate.

You can either expect just one result or a number of them; and you may
require an answer immediately or not. The mechanics of remote communication
might be something like this:

1 immediate answer: sync
1 delayed answer: async
n immediate answers: async
n delayed answers: async

Of course, asynchronous messaging introduces a host of new problems, but
they should be easier to deal with than having to code remote calls by hand.

> If you wanted that kind of subtlety locally, you'd at least 
> be able to widen
> the interface with some shared  memory/shared object 
> communication or even
> cheap additional calls. Remotely, every communication is expensive.

My book says: first make it work, then make it easy, finally make it cheap.

> Having the ability for free-running intelligent applications 
> to communicate
> by sending messages was always a simple and powerful 
> technique in many of
> the inter-machine situations I've programmed (long before the 
> WWW or CORBA
> or RMI was around), and RPC feels like a completely 
> unjustified restriction.

I take it that by RPC you mean the request-response thing?

> And I'd suspect the OMG as the hidden source of a lot of the twisted
> thinking that forced it on us ... a dream, that many bought into, that
> 'Objects' were the answer to everything, and a theory that 
> the only thing
> you can do to an object is invoke it, and another theory that 
> the object
> inside a program is the same as an object in another 
> continent, and they
> should all look the same and etcetera etcetera.

On the surface, they all look like reasonable ideas.

> Well, everything's an object, isn't it ? Kiss my object !

I seem to detect some hostility in this last part  :)

> - Tim
> 

Un saludo,

Alex.

PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[jean-frederic clere]

I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.

Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.

He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects.

Cheers

Jean-frederic

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Re: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Tim Hyde]

Hi Alex,

You ask why I think it's important to distinguish between the
characteristics of a remote call and a local one.

One of the nicest things on this topic I found is a paper from Sun
themselves -
http://research.sun.com/technical-reports/1994/sml1_tr-94-29.pdf

>From the date, I would think that Sun were in the initial stages of thinking
about how to do remote calls in java, and RMI was probably in the gestation
stage (anyone knowing the dates of all that better, please correct me !).
And I imagine that this paper, which is about the characteristics of
distributed computing, and which makes a case for *not* trying to make
remote calls transparent, was on the losing side of the argument. My
suspicion is that it was marketing thinking that actually pushed the remote
model to where it is today.

It's a while since I read the paper, and I remember feeling it didn't go
quite far enough: my own thoughts are that when you ask a remote machine to
do something, you don't necessarily want to suspend your thread till it
completes, and when the remote machine responds, it doesn't necessarily want
to have completed all the work involved in your request, nor does it want to
be restricted to responding just once, or with only a single value. And it
might want to queue your request up if it's busy. And if it doesn't have the
resources it needs to do what you asked, it might want to tell you about
different situations in different ways, without wanting to throw an
Exception. Sort of subtler than a local call.

If you wanted that kind of subtlety locally, you'd at least be able to widen
the interface with some shared  memory/shared object communication or even
cheap additional calls. Remotely, every communication is expensive.

Having the ability for free-running intelligent applications to communicate
by sending messages was always a simple and powerful technique in many of
the inter-machine situations I've programmed (long before the WWW or CORBA
or RMI was around), and RPC feels like a completely unjustified restriction.

And I'd suspect the OMG as the hidden source of a lot of the twisted
thinking that forced it on us ... a dream, that many bought into, that
'Objects' were the answer to everything, and a theory that the only thing
you can do to an object is invoke it, and another theory that the object
inside a program is the same as an object in another continent, and they
should all look the same and etcetera etcetera.

Well, everything's an object, isn't it ? Kiss my object !

- Tim


- Original Message -
From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Jakarta General List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 31 January 2002 12:49
Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful


>
> Hi Tim.
>
> I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs as much
as
> possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
>
> > -Mensaje original-
> > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation
> > techniques
> > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent,
> > instead of
> > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But
> > personally, I think RPC
> > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program
> > as though a
> > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
>
> Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote
> calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent
> discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using
> proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
> flawed.
>
> Un saludo,
>
> Alex.
>




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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Paul Hammant]

Sam,

>>What rules do you want changed?
>>
>>1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF
>>attentions.
>>2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools
>>
>
>These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where
>I can find them?  ;-)
>
OK OK, I'm talking from position of ignorance.

>>Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e.
>>will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) )
>>
>
>Nothing is a foregone conclusion.  Quoting from "www.apache.org":
>
>   The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community
>   of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized
>   by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and
>   pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software
>   that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a
>   group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers
>   and users.
>
>I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps.
>
:-)

>>>Warning: that's a trick question.  If you want to take initiative and move
>>>jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful.  If you want to
>>>take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you
>>>will ultimately be successful.  If you want to take initiative and work to
>>>get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful.
>>>
>>>The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number
>>>of hours in a day.
>>>
>>Three assertions - a, b & c.  (a) true, (b) subject to project-status
>>and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above.
>>
>
>Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form "if only
>these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they
>would attract a community".  Such proposals generally get politely turned
>away.
>
True, it is too much of a risk of course.  

>>You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish?
>>
>
>Actually, no.  At least not given the information you have provided before.
>Specifically, the comment about being "sidetracked with Enterprise Object
>Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time)."  But this
>has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above.
>
Ahh, now.  I work in fits and spurts like others.  

Enterprise Object broker (206Kb runtime) now has two example 
applications that are published internally to other beans and externally 
to other things including a test client.  It does all this without 
RemoteException (all beans are local and remote).  Shortly I'll complete 
a demo servlet that EOB will push to Hendrik Schreiber's Jo! webserver 
that is also in the Phoenix VM.

AltRMI is a core work of the moment because EOB uses it.

I'd back burner both and AvalonDB to have Jesktop as a top-level Jakarta 
project.  This morning as a consequence of this thread to independant 
developers has contacted me to discuss the differences between Jesktop 
an their independantly developed efforts.  There are some license (in 
the case of one) and architecture (the other) differences that I'm sure 
will be overcome, so that some commonality will be found.  The last 
thing we want is a KDE / Gnome split at an early stage of a 
desktop/window manager/gui app server.

>I can't resist closing this with the following:
>
>   In "The Wizard of Oz", Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She
>   visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing
>   the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends
>   accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover
>   that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows
>   much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all
>   along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers
>   together saying, "There's no place like home."
>
>   Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she
>   alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him?
>   Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something,
>   that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily
>   accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house
>   we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins
>   where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way
>   to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our
>   own path toward home.
>
>;-)
>
Paths, yellow brick or otherwise, can sometimes be odd choices :-)  It 
is often not correct to direct another on which path to take, even when 
the journey has been completed by oneself.

- Paul


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Sam Ruby]

Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> What rules do you want changed?
>
> 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF
> attentions.
> 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools

These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where
I can find them?  ;-)

> Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e.
> will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) )

Nothing is a foregone conclusion.  Quoting from "www.apache.org":

   The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community
   of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized
   by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and
   pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software
   that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a
   group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers
   and users.

I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps.

>>Warning: that's a trick question.  If you want to take initiative and move
>>jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful.  If you want to
>>take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you
>>will ultimately be successful.  If you want to take initiative and work to
>>get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful.
>>
>>The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number
>>of hours in a day.
>>
>Three assertions - a, b & c.  (a) true, (b) subject to project-status
>and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above.

Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form "if only
these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they
would attract a community".  Such proposals generally get politely turned
away.

> You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish?

Actually, no.  At least not given the information you have provided before.
Specifically, the comment about being "sidetracked with Enterprise Object
Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time)."  But this
has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above.

I can't resist closing this with the following:

   In "The Wizard of Oz", Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She
   visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing
   the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends
   accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover
   that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows
   much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all
   along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers
   together saying, "There's no place like home."

   Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she
   alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him?
   Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something,
   that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily
   accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house
   we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins
   where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way
   to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our
   own path toward home.

;-)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: jkarta-site2

[Ted Husted]

Danny Angus wrote:
> 2/ if I add it to news xdoc do I also have to add it to index under
> "headlines", and.. if I do that do I knock off the earliest headline to keep
> the lists the same length.

+1

Actually, I'm thinking five looks a little crowded. If you wanted to go
with three, I think that would be fine too. But I don't think we want
more than five.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Java Web Development with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Oleg V Alexeev]

Hello Morgan,

+1

Saturday, February 02, 2002, 1:16:55 AM, you wrote:

MD> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.

MD> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
MD> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
MD> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
MD> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.

MD> - Morgan Delagrange


MD> _
MD> Do You Yahoo!?
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 Olegmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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jkarta-site2

[Danny Angus]

Hi,
I'm about to release James 2.0a2, and I'd like it to appear in news so two
questions ..

1/ please can I have karma for jakarta-site2, Or would posting a Patch be
quicker?
2/ if I add it to news xdoc do I also have to add it to index under
"headlines", and.. if I do that do I knock off the earliest headline to keep
the lists the same length.

Thanks.
d.


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Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection

[Colin Chalmers]

I'll second that, glad to see your not departing from jakarta altogether.

/colin

- Original Message -
From: "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection


> Cool!
>
> That was what I understood but the tone of some remarks left me wondering.
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:42 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
> >
> >
> > Just to be clear, I'm not leaving Jakarta entirely, you will still have
to
> > put up with my bullshit every now and then...I'm just not going to
> > participate in the PMC politics any longer...
> >
> > -jon
>
>
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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Paul Hammant]

Sam,

>>I would love
>>for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it
>>is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no
>>community yet.  I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it
>>back.
>>
>
>What rules do you want changed?
>
1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF 
attentions.  
2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools

Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. 
will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) )

>Warning: that's a trick question.  If you want to take initiative and move
>jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful.  If you want to
>take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you
>will ultimately be successful.  If you want to take initiative and work to
>get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful.
>
>The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number
>of hours in a day.
>
Three assertions - a, b & c.  (a) true, (b) subject to project-status 
and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above.

You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish?

- Paul


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Sam Ruby]

Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> I would love
> for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it
> is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no
> community yet.  I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it
> back.

What rules do you want changed?

Warning: that's a trick question.  If you want to take initiative and move
jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful.  If you want to
take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you
will ultimately be successful.  If you want to take initiative and work to
get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful.

The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number
of hours in a day.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Sam Ruby]

Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> I'm proposing moving it off jakarta CVS and onto sourceforge, where
> committers can be added at will without the faux-pas of access to
> Avalon's huge codebase.  The reason I am asking here is that it is
> taking code away from Apache.  It will still be Apache licensed and
> could well *come back one day* (when community is proven and assuming it
> is not still alien in principle).

There is no technical reason that the committers to cornerstone need to
have commit or voting rights to avalon as a whole.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Paul Hammant]

Ted,

>Has there been a vote regarding this in Avalon?
>

It is in progress and so far in favour of a move.  I dont think it will 
be vetoed as I was the only one that ever committed changes.  It won't 
be useful until I complete the mime-manager-registry (for double click 
associations etc), so few have tested it.

>
>Have all the prior authors of the packages been pinged?
>

There were consulted on a move to Apache license and a move to Jakarta 
hosting.  I have written 90% of the code and the other authors dropped 
away, probably not related to the move to jakarta. I am sure they do not 
actually need to be asked as they are not committers here.   Others are 
interested now.

>Will the existing codebase continue under the Apache License?
>

Yes.  Without any change to wording.

>What is the status of the current sourceforge projects? Could this be
>joined into one project there under the Apache License?
>

The API (project jesktop)  is BSD licensed because I haveported lots of 
GPL applications to be Jesktop compatible and GPL is incompatible with 
Apache software license, but not BSD.  Those apps are hosted under 
project jesktopapps.  This proposal is about moving the source tree 
undchanged (apart from package rename) to souceforge as "jesktopimpl". 
 There is scope for others to take the API and make a Jesktop desktop 
that is not of the same codebase.

>It's my feeling that our core mission is promoting the Apache open
>source methodology and licensing terms. Where the codebase lives is
>secondary. 
>

Yup, we do concentrate on server side comps/tools/apps now.  I think 
that is limiting and cite Batik as a cool Apache GUI app.  I would love 
for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it 
is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no 
community yet.  I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it 
back.

Regards,

- Paul H


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Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Ted Husted]

Has there been a vote regarding this in Avalon?

Have all the prior authors of the packages been pinged?

Will the existing codebase continue under the Apache License?

What is the status of the current sourceforge projects? Could this be
joined into one project there under the Apache License?

It's my feeling that our core mission is promoting the Apache open
source methodology and licensing terms. Where the codebase lives is
secondary. 

-Ted.


Paul Hammant wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> *Context*
> 
> To remind you, I am a committer on Avalon and Commons with intersts in
> anything that uses avalon-phoenix.   Many months ago, I placed a long
> worked on project called Jesktop inside jakarta-avalon-cornerstone's CVS
> as a "demo" application for Avalon-Phoenix.  I then did quite a bit more
> work on it.   I think it may have been a bit of a mistake. Despite
> continued interest in Jesktop ( I get a private email once a week asking
> "how do I download it"), it is essentially stagnating there as I am
> sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with
> AvalonDB if I had time).
> 
> *Proposal*
> 
> I'm proposing moving it off jakarta CVS and onto sourceforge, where
> committers can be added at will without the faux-pas of access to
> Avalon's huge codebase.  The reason I am asking here is that it is
> taking code away from Apache.  It will still be Apache licensed and
> could well *come back one day* (when community is proven and assuming it
> is not still alien in principle).
> 
> The BSD licensed API is already at sourceforge:
> http://jesktop.sourceforge.net/
> The multiple non-Apache licensed ported applications are already at
> sourceforge: http://jesktopapps.sourceforge.net/  (pictures speak 1000
> words)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> - Paul H
> 
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Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge

[Paul Hammant]

Folks,

*Context*

To remind you, I am a committer on Avalon and Commons with intersts in 
anything that uses avalon-phoenix.   Many months ago, I placed a long 
worked on project called Jesktop inside jakarta-avalon-cornerstone's CVS 
as a "demo" application for Avalon-Phoenix.  I then did quite a bit more 
work on it.   I think it may have been a bit of a mistake. Despite 
continued interest in Jesktop ( I get a private email once a week asking 
"how do I download it"), it is essentially stagnating there as I am 
sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with 
AvalonDB if I had time).

*Proposal*

I'm proposing moving it off jakarta CVS and onto sourceforge, where 
committers can be added at will without the faux-pas of access to 
Avalon's huge codebase.  The reason I am asking here is that it is 
taking code away from Apache.  It will still be Apache licensed and 
could well *come back one day* (when community is proven and assuming it 
is not still alien in principle).

The BSD licensed API is already at sourceforge: 
http://jesktop.sourceforge.net/
The multiple non-Apache licensed ported applications are already at 
sourceforge: http://jesktopapps.sourceforge.net/  (pictures speak 1000 
words)

Regards,

- Paul H


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RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hola Santiago!

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Santiago Gala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> P.S.: (This holds for any Apache Committer coming to Madrid. I feel 
> quite isolated here).

Hey, perhaps there are no Apache Committers in Madrid, but there are surely
lots of Apache users! :)

Un saludo,

Alex.