Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Please, lets calm the things down. Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth will still spin tomorrow. Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK. I have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles. Yeah, but that would result in some serious damage to the real-estate with all the buildings disintegrating and such. Maybe the cheaper alternative is to get an upgrade to business class? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
> Please, lets calm the things down. > Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth > will still spin tomorrow. Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK. I have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement (fwd)
Copying to both Jakarta and the board as an FYI. Waited until tonight to make sure the Tomcat subcommunity were happy with the email being sent, which they were. Hen -- Forwarded message -- Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:08:58 -0500 (EST) From: Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Kate Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Apache Public Relations <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Apache Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement Hi Kate, I'd like to thank SD/Jolt on behalf of the Jakarta community for the JOLT "Productivity Winner" award for Apache Tomcat 5.0. Media recognition of the work the Tomcat community puts in is always very welcome. I'm also writing to let you know about an error on your JOLT product excellence awards press release because I am concerned it might be reproduced in your forthcoming June 2005 issue: http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf The release attributes Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss". The big problem with this attribution is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors. It is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), as there are 70 committers to the Tomcat codebase, many of whom are employed by other companies or contribute individually. We would like to request that this be changed to: "Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)" in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005 issue. Officially, the name of the project is "Apache Tomcat 5.0", and not just "Tomcat 5.0", and we'd appreciate that change too if possible, but the major concern is the suggestion of a 'leading' contributor. Many thanks, Henri Yandell Vice President, Apache Jakarta Project The Apache Software Foundation - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Yes, Noel. i have the same feeling that Stephen has: "it seems likely (based on emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have been a non-issue. " So the tomcat committers would be doing it on their own terms. with no one pushing them. Quote from Mladen's email: "so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements" Quote from Costin's email makes me think that they are ready for it: "If tomcat would be a top level project instead of jakarta-tomcat, most likely Remy would be the PMC chair. Acording to ASF rules, the PMC chair is the ultimate decision maker for a project." And i love the quote from Remy: ""more code, less politics" So i'd say what is the benchmark for TLP? If the tomcat committers want it and show the will to do it. Why not? The only question in my mind is do they want it? thanks, dims On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:56:54 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dims, > > The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with > the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately > associated with them, too. > > --- Noel > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
> > Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from > > their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by > > Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big > > enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without > > the involvement of Jakarta. > Great. Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing > the entire Tomcat community. Where did you see that from what he said? He correctly noted that moving to TLP status has certain requirements, but no one has said that Tomcat does not possess them. Quite to the contrary from most notes I've read on this thread. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
- Original Message - From: "Stephen Colebourne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jakarta General List" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ? > From: "Henri Gomez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP. > > > > As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at > > this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella. > > > > What motivate the move to TLP now. > > Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main > task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises the > question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these > issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta. > Great. Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire Tomcat community. I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision. > For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on > emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have > been a non-issue. > > Stephen > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > This message is intended only for the use of the person(s) listed above as the intended recipient(s), and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment. If you received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and then delete all copies of this message and any attachments. In addition you should be aware that ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail sent through the Internet is not secure. Do not send confidential or sensitive information, such as social security numbers, account numbers, personal identification numbers and passwords, to us via ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Dims, The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately associated with them, too. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Pros: - Tomcat pmc will be responsible for all its actions and decisions - Report directly to board every quarter - No meddling from outsiders (jakarta-general folks and others (read jakarta pmc) from the peanut gallery :) - Top Level domain - http://tomcat.apache.org/ - One of pmc members can become a VP - Tomcat committers (via pmc) will have full control over all affairs including what to name the thingy :) Cons: - Can't think of any off the top of my head. -- dims On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:27:32 +0100, Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP. > > As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at > this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella. > > What motivate the move to TLP now. > > Regards > > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mladen Turk wrote: > > > > > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > > > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions. > > > > > Cool, means so much to me. > > > I also have no complaints on your technical skills :) > > > > My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that > > there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss. > > As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing > > the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you > > and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do > > a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby, > > Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few. > > > > > > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy > > > > getting caught in the crossfire. > > > > > Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence. > > > > I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment. > > > > --- Noel > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
From: "Henri Gomez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP. As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella. What motivate the move to TLP now. Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta. For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have been a non-issue. Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
> Please, lets calm the things down. > Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth > will still spin tomorrow. ...that's an excellent ending for this discussion :) Thanks -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment. Please, lets calm the things down. Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth will still spin tomorrow. Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP. As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella. What motivate the move to TLP now. Regards On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mladen Turk wrote: > > > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions. > > > Cool, means so much to me. > > I also have no complaints on your technical skills :) > > My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that > there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss. > As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing > the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you > and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do > a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby, > Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few. > > > > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy > > > getting caught in the crossfire. > > > Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence. > > I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment. > > --- Noel > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Mladen Turk wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions. > Cool, means so much to me. > I also have no complaints on your technical skills :) My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss. As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby, Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few. > > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy > > getting caught in the crossfire. > Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence. I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions. Cool, means so much to me. I also have no complaints on your technical skills :) Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture. If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire. Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence. Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Mladen Turk wrote: > Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :) Talk with the PRC. > Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I > really have not found a firm standpoint Hence the PRC. > So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that > we all know as Tomcat? The PRC exists to address and ensure consistency in such matters. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Jim Jagielski wrote: > Mladen Turk wrote: > > Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers), > > propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP? I'd say that it is about time. > I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me) > 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there > is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each > of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as > encrypted or evil :). I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions. Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture. If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Remy Maucherat wrote: > What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other > company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ? > Can you prove me wrong ? Multiple companies have, in fact, been contacted and dealt with over what was perceived to be misleading PR and other things. I don't want to discuss which ones, so as not to revisit old wounds, but I was involved in at least two other incidents that come to mind off-hand. In all cases, I do feel that such matters should be brought to the PRC. You should convey to JBoss, as has been conveyed to other companies, that it would be appreciated if their PR departments would work with our PRC before releasing related PR. That would get you, and most of the rest of us, out of that path, and let you, and most of the rest of us, concentrate on community development and code. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Serge Knystautas wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: >> Remy Maucherat wrote: >>>it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions. >> Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be in >> conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the case >> where the existing IP is owned by the company. This applies equally to IBM, >> Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss. > This is an accurate legal description but not really an issue to me. I was addressing only that aspect of it. The positioning aspect is much more contentious. I agree with your expression of discomfort at how companies --- not just JBoss --- market their relationships, but that's something I would be happy to defer to the PRC. > I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow > commercial involvement in their projects. I'd love us to figure out how we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting when we feel a line is crossed. +1 --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Costin Manolache wrote: > I'm +1 on your email if you are going to send the same kind of email for >> every use of "Tomcat" and if we are going to send an email every time a > company or individual claims he is making 'lead contributions' to an > apache project. And I would feel much better if such rules would be > written down ( so we can point people to it - and use them in all cases). > I'm -1 if this is only about Jboss, it's just not fair. We have a PRC for the purpose, in part, of ensuring a consistent message across the ASF. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :) No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" :) My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most weight. I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions. I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason). Remy did, but he is French ;). Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think. Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's up to those people to decide I suppose. Our voting works on a +1/-1 basis, with +0 and -0 being used for non-binding vague inclination. I could be wrong but Bill, Remy, Costin and yourself are all basically saying -0. Costin has had a -1, but with conditions (ie that this is targetted solely at JBoss) that are (as someone with an expert understanding of the inside of my skull) easy to claim are not true. Technically I guess it's up to the PMC members on the Tomcat subcommunity to decide, and you're all on this list. I admit that it would be best for a -1 to come from Costin, Bill or Yoav, as yourself and Remy are in a less than desirable position when this stuff comes up. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Henri Yandell wrote: Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :) No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" :) My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most weight. I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions. I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason). Remy did, but he is French ;). Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think. Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's up to those people to decide I suppose. Regards, Mladen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Mladen Turk wrote: Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers), propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP? Personally, I think the Tomcat community is large enough and healthy enough to warrant change to a TLP. I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me) 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as encrypted or evil :). Now you're just being paranoid ;) But then again, when I pass your Email through my patented is-it-evil.py Evil detection code, it decodes as "Bwaaa H Ha Ha"! Ack!! :) Cheers! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote: Hi, Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :) Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements. So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that we all know as Tomcat? Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or 'Jakarta Tomcat'? If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing inside 'Apache Jakarta'? Originally, Jakarta Tomcat. Logically, Apache Jakarta Tomcat as of a couple of years ago when the Apache side of Jakarta was being emphasised. Last August there was a long thread in which it was agreed by consensus (ie it was suggested and nobody disagreed, and various people +1'd and acted including a couple of Tomcat committers) to make it Apache Tomcat. However, it was hardly broadcast/followed up on (sorry, my fault) and confusion is not a surprise. Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers), propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP? I see two direct benefits. 1) Tomcat will have a much more direct channel to the board and will not be relying on me as a confused bystander. I use Tomcat regularly, but I'm only aware of dev issues at a surface level. 2) It makes my job easier :) The less there is to worry about oversight of, the less time I have to allot from coding to do oversight. Perhaps a bit simplistic. I also think there are user benefits, TLPs are easier to understand, and in terms of a long term future for [EMAIL PROTECTED], it makes sense for Jakarta to be less of an umbrella as I don't believe we are likely to be able to setup the kind of system an umbrella needs to perform optimally (an entire second layer of management etc). I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me) 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as encrypted or evil :). Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :) My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most weight. Currently a list of -0's is just not enough to outweigh the general view from your Jakarta peers. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Costin Manolache wrote: > > Danny Angus wrote: > > > ... the issue is *only* that > > "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss" > > implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor. > > > Fact is that JBoss is _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any company > that have committers working full time - in any project. > ( in addition the architecture of tomcat5 is based on jboss jmx model, > and that's _a_ major contribution as well ) > > Sun is also _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any other company > that is funding tomcat developers. Code is written by people, but > companies like JBoss or Sun are actually paying the bills. Of course, a > lot of credit must go to people who manage to cut hours from their > families and free time. > ++1! > "Leading contributor" does not imply the only contributor or the only > leading contributor. > lead: ; leading: 1. To guide on a way 2. live (~ a quiet life) 3. to direct the operations, activity, or performance of, 4. to go at the head of; be first No, leading does not imply sole or only, but it *does* imply the sense of being first or the most significant, esp how it was written. -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "There 10 types of people: those who read binary and everyone else." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Danny Angus wrote: ... the issue is *only* that "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss" implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor. Fact is that JBoss is _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any company that have committers working full time - in any project. ( in addition the architecture of tomcat5 is based on jboss jmx model, and that's _a_ major contribution as well ) Sun is also _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any other company that is funding tomcat developers. Code is written by people, but companies like JBoss or Sun are actually paying the bills. Of course, a lot of credit must go to people who manage to cut hours from their families and free time. "Leading contributor" does not imply the only contributor or the only leading contributor. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Hi, Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :) Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements. So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that we all know as Tomcat? Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or 'Jakarta Tomcat'? If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing inside 'Apache Jakarta'? Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers), propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP? I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me) 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as encrypted or evil :). Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Jim Jagielski wrote: On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:24 AM, Remy Maucherat wrote: Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been crossed here. Cool debate ;) My intent was not to make an accusation but rather a simple statement that any issue we are talking about is not unique or particular to any one company. Yes, I think the SD tagline is a line that was crossed. Geez... I go out of my way to make this NOT a JBoss thing, to and it falls on deaf ears. How about reading the rest of the Email instead of one line that you took the wrong way? There's still some murkiness in the branding. I sent an email, and it seems our PR person was told by Brian that Tomcat should be called "Apache Jakarta Tomcat" (which we actually used a while ago, but not anymore). At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear magically. Oh foo. No one is remotely suggesting that. If the issue is to reappear every time there's an article/PR/etc, then there's no point. Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
> At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems > faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear > magically. Oh grow up. No one has criticised you, no one has complained that you are paid by JBOSS, no one has criticised your contributions, no one has prevented you from expressing your opinion in this debate or any other one, no one has suggested that you pose any problem at all. The issue is not "lets kick Remy out" the issue is *only* that "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss" implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor. The fact is that JBOSS isn't a contributor, you guys are as individuals, and if JBoss gets this treatment then so should a load of other employers. > I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my > company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think > they made all the necessary adjustments already. Who amongst us can say that we're responsible for our employers actions, or that we always think they are right? Your bosses are big enough to take care of themselves. Remy, no one would expect you to defend anything. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:24 AM, Remy Maucherat wrote: Jim Jagielski wrote: That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :) But I would agree that other companies have occasionally crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both companies "associated" with ASF projects and external companies that have no ties or links at all. In those cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc... And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented (by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know* it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least. Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been crossed here. Cool debate ;) My intent was not to make an accusation but rather a simple statement that any issue we are talking about is not unique or particular to any one company. Yes, I think the SD tagline is a line that was crossed. Geez... I go out of my way to make this NOT a JBoss thing, to and it falls on deaf ears. How about reading the rest of the Email instead of one line that you took the wrong way? At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear magically. Oh foo. No one is remotely suggesting that. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Remy, +1 to "more code, less politics" :) No one is gonna kick you out. All of us are in this mess together :) :) -- dims On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:24:34 +0100, Remy Maucherat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim Jagielski wrote: > > That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :) > > > > But I would agree that other companies have occasionally > > crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both > > companies "associated" with ASF projects and external > > companies that have no ties or links at all. In those > > cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have > > requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc... > > > > And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's > > anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented > > (by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent > > where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know* > > it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least. > > Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been > crossed here. Cool debate ;) > The small mistake made on our wesite has been made by the entire Java > industry. The person who wrote the page (it was not me) just made the > same mistake everyone else did, period. Nobody is actually confused by > it (since they were already confused), and there are no issue about > confusion with another product. > > At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems > faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear > magically. > > I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my > company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think > they made all the necessary adjustments already. One thing is certain: I > will not bother wasting my time to defend my company or myself in this > kind of ridiculous thread. I already sent a couple emails with simple > explanations when it was requested. > > My personal view on the ASF is that I should do "more code, less > politics", which seems to bring more value. As a result, I am at the > mercy of the politician gang ... Feels like real life, though ;) > > Rémy > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Jim Jagielski wrote: That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :) But I would agree that other companies have occasionally crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both companies "associated" with ASF projects and external companies that have no ties or links at all. In those cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc... And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented (by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know* it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least. Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been crossed here. Cool debate ;) The small mistake made on our wesite has been made by the entire Java industry. The person who wrote the page (it was not me) just made the same mistake everyone else did, period. Nobody is actually confused by it (since they were already confused), and there are no issue about confusion with another product. At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear magically. I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think they made all the necessary adjustments already. One thing is certain: I will not bother wasting my time to defend my company or myself in this kind of ridiculous thread. I already sent a couple emails with simple explanations when it was requested. My personal view on the ASF is that I should do "more code, less politics", which seems to bring more value. As a result, I am at the mercy of the politician gang ... Feels like real life, though ;) Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Remy, FWIW, see my efforts to protect "Apache WSS4J": http://www.google.com/search?q=apache.org+wss4j+bilal+site:xml.com&hl=en&lr=&filter=0 -- dims On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:58:08 +0100, Remy Maucherat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim Jagielski wrote: > > On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote: > > > >> And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from > >> people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-). > > > > I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the > > accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that > > if it had been any other company with any other ASF project, > > there would have been just the same discussion. > > Cool :) > > What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other > company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ? > > Can you prove me wrong ? > > Rémy > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Remy Maucherat wrote: > > Jim Jagielski wrote: > > On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote: > > > >> And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from > >> people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-). > > > > I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the > > accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that > > if it had been any other company with any other ASF project, > > there would have been just the same discussion. > > Cool :) > > What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other > company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ? > > Can you prove me wrong ? > That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :) But I would agree that other companies have occasionally crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both companies "associated" with ASF projects and external companies that have no ties or links at all. In those cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc... And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented (by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know* it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least. -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "There 10 types of people: those who read binary and everyone else." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Jim Jagielski wrote: On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote: And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-). I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that if it had been any other company with any other ASF project, there would have been just the same discussion. Cool :) What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ? Can you prove me wrong ? Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote: And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-). I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that if it had been any other company with any other ASF project, there would have been just the same discussion. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Costin Manolache wrote: > > If tomcat would be a top level project instead of jakarta-tomcat, most > likely Remy would be the PMC chair. Acording to ASF rules, the PMC chair > is the ultimate decision maker for a project. > It seems the notion of 'project leads' is not accepted by some - yet > the entire legal organisation of apache is based on a top-down hieararhy > ( Board -> PMC chair ). I don't know what is worse - the perception > people have about things, or the reality. > The PMC Chair is the eyes and ears of the board with respect to the ASF project. Just as people would justifiably howl long and loud if the board controlled or directed development of an ASF project, so would (should) they howl if any PMC chair does as well. There's is a big difference between a management/oversight "lead" and a developer/contributor "lead". -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "There 10 types of people: those who read binary and everyone else." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote: - Original Message - From: "Jim Jagielski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change Henri Yandell wrote: It may be that leading contributor is, while not an 'Apache Way' to discuss something, a completely true piece of investigative journalism. There are definitely parts of Commons where a little bit of investigation could point out that "Yes, on DBUtils 1.0, David Graham was the lead developer" (Sorry David :) ). That may be true, but certainly we do have the right and responsibility to ensure that our desires, as far as how we run and represent ourselves, is accurate as well. It has always been a major foundation of the ASF that projects are built and developed by communities, not individuals. Terms such as "lead" or "main" do cause harm to the community and have always been actively avoided. And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-). I don't think that's very fair. The ASF spends considerable time protecting it's IP, including trademarks, for all projects. Just imagine if you read about "Sun Tomcat" or "IBM Tomcat" or you read that "Microsoft controls 45% of Tomcat" ;) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Javadoc management
My involvement was with what has now become tucked away in a zip file called alexandria-legacy. At this time Alexandria was an ant build script with some ant extensions. Most of these are now part of ant. Alexandra's main goal was to allow people to access javadoc and xrefed source code. The build and testing stuff was just a logical extension of having a system which could automatically checkout code. Gump now handles this much better. Anyway just trying to bring people's attention to an existing solution rather than trying to start everything from scratch. On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 12:22 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: > My negatives for Alexandria: > > * Seems large and yet dead > * Has lofty goals, whereas the below is very basic > > Gump is another possibility. I noticed the other day that they have > javadoc in the gump.xml. > > My argument for the below over trying to do things with gump is that it is > simple to get running and find out what we actually want. Once we have > that, we can try to drive gump/alexandria/something-else. > > Hen > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Jeff Martin wrote: > > > Just wondering if anyone had looked at Alexandria. > > http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria/legacy/ > > > > On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 00:31 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, J Aaron Farr wrote: > >> > >>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:49:08 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell > >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Interested in finding out if anyone else thinks this would be a good > idea. > > Rather than have each subproject managing their release javadocs > separately, I think it would be good if we treated the javadoc more like > the releases. Located in a central location, perhaps mirrored, all > versions available and perhaps with additional tools like ashkelon or > multidoc to bring them together. > >>> > >>> I guess I'm hoping for something like: > >>> > >>> http://api.apache.org/$group/$artifact/$version/ > >> > >> Sounds good, though possibly: > >> > >> http://jakarta.apache.org/api/$subproject/$artifact/$version/ > >> > >> to get a prototype up and running. > >> > >>> with features like > >>> > >>> * download the javadocs > >> > >> +1. Unsure how this would balance with the download pages. > >> > >>> * search javadocs > >> > >> +1 long-term. > >> > >>> * have javadocs linked to source reference (so maybe have an 'api' > >>> and a 'src' directory) > >> > >> Not hugely essential I think. > >> > >>> * have javadocs linked to each other > >> > >> Would be very nice, but seems like a battle. We wouldn't want to rebuild > >> the javadoc as part of this, and might not be easy to find a way to munge > >> existing javadoc to point to each other. Also means dependency knowledge, > >> which version of Collections did this BeanUtils use. > >> > >>> * include test and taglib javadocs > >> > >> +1 on taglibs. Test ones are less essential to start with I think. > >> > >>> Plus it's got to be pretty simple to set this up or for projects to > >>> contribute to it. > >> > >> To start with, I'm generally thinking of a defined file structure in which > >> unzipped javadocs appear, a location for downloadable javadoc to be and a > >> front end to make it easy to get to the relevant javadoc. > >> > >> A release would involve putting the new javadoc in place, adding it to the > >> front-end (hopefully in a one-line kind of way) and then creating a > >> downloadable zip. > >> > >> Initial plan would be to propose a structure for the repository (I like > >> yours), go extract a lot of javadocs from our downloads to seed the > >> repository, and come up with a simple-front-end to let people use them. > >> > >> An important requirement will be the need for a subproject/group to be > >> able to link to a page that defines their javadoc, rather than at the top > >> level. > >> > >> Hen > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > > Jeff Martin > > > > Memetic Engineer > > > > http://www.custommonkey.org/ > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- jeff martin information technologist mkodo limited mobile: 44 (0) 78 55 478 331 phone: 44 (0) 20 77 29 45 45 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mkodo.com 73 Leonard St, London, EC2A 4QS. U.K - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Remy wrote: > I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at > JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an > individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a > while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that > (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has > the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and > does not match the legal documents the ASF uses. Well said. I think that we do need to acknowledge the support employers provide by effectivly funding development. However This still makes *you* personally the contributor, albeit funded by JBOSS. No doubt your own work is prioritised and your input to Tomcat is managed by your JBOSS boss. But that indirect setting of priorities is, as it should be, the limit of JBOSS influence on Tomcat through you. > I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company > to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really > blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here > seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work). >From where I sit I would prefer to see a clear distinction between the fact that some people are funded to work on ASF projects under the auspice of the ASF and the implied notion that the companies themselves somehow manage the projects. If this argument was about Sun or IBM or Oracle or Microsoft claiming to be a lead contributor we would surely want to clarify the independance of the project's management whilst also acknowedging the support it receives. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
