Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Danny Angus

Remy wrote:

 I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
 JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
 individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a
 while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that
 (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has
 the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and
 does not match the legal documents the ASF uses.

Well said. I think that we do need to acknowledge the support employers
provide
by effectivly funding development.

However This still makes *you* personally the contributor, albeit funded by
JBOSS.
No doubt your own work is prioritised and your input to Tomcat is managed
by your
JBOSS boss. But that indirect setting of priorities is, as it should be,
the limit
of JBOSS influence on Tomcat through you.

 I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
 to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
 blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
 seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).

From where I sit I would prefer to see a clear distinction between the fact
that
some people are funded to work on ASF projects under the auspice of the ASF
and the implied notion that the companies themselves somehow manage the
projects.

If this argument was about Sun or IBM or Oracle or Microsoft claiming to be
a lead
contributor we would surely want to clarify the independance of the
project's management
whilst also acknowedging the support it receives.

d.


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Re: Javadoc management

2005-03-21 Thread Jeff Martin
My involvement was with what has now become tucked away in a zip file
called alexandria-legacy. At this time Alexandria was an ant build
script with some ant extensions. Most of these are now part of ant.

Alexandra's main goal was to allow people to access javadoc and xrefed
source code. The build and testing stuff was just a logical extension of
having a system which could automatically checkout code. Gump now
handles this much better.

Anyway just trying to bring people's attention to an existing solution
rather than trying to start everything from scratch.

On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 12:22 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:
 My negatives for Alexandria:
 
 * Seems large and yet dead
 * Has lofty goals, whereas the below is very basic
 
 Gump is another possibility. I noticed the other day that they have 
 javadoc in the gump.xml.
 
 My argument for the below over trying to do things with gump is that it is 
 simple to get running and find out what we actually want. Once we have 
 that, we can try to drive gump/alexandria/something-else.
 
 Hen
 
 On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Jeff Martin wrote:
 
  Just wondering if anyone had looked at Alexandria.
  http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria/legacy/
 
  On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 00:31 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:
 
  On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, J Aaron Farr wrote:
 
  On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:49:08 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Interested in finding out if anyone else thinks this would be a good 
  idea.
 
  Rather than have each subproject managing their release javadocs
  separately, I think it would be good if we treated the javadoc more like
  the releases. Located in a central location, perhaps mirrored, all
  versions available and perhaps with additional tools like ashkelon or
  multidoc to bring them together.
 
  I guess I'm hoping for something like:
 
http://api.apache.org/$group/$artifact/$version/
 
  Sounds good, though possibly:
 
  http://jakarta.apache.org/api/$subproject/$artifact/$version/
 
  to get a prototype up and running.
 
  with features like
 
* download the javadocs
 
  +1. Unsure how this would balance with the download pages.
 
* search javadocs
 
  +1 long-term.
 
* have javadocs linked to source reference  (so maybe have an 'api'
  and a 'src' directory)
 
  Not hugely essential I think.
 
* have javadocs linked to each other
 
  Would be very nice, but seems like a battle. We wouldn't want to rebuild
  the javadoc as part of this, and might not be easy to find a way to munge
  existing javadoc to point to each other. Also means dependency knowledge,
  which version of Collections did this BeanUtils use.
 
* include test and taglib javadocs
 
  +1 on taglibs. Test ones are less essential to start with I think.
 
  Plus it's got to be pretty simple to set this up or for projects to
  contribute to it.
 
  To start with, I'm generally thinking of a defined file structure in which
  unzipped javadocs appear, a location for downloadable javadoc to be and a
  front end to make it easy to get to the relevant javadoc.
 
  A release would involve putting the new javadoc in place, adding it to the
  front-end (hopefully in a one-line kind of way) and then creating a
  downloadable zip.
 
  Initial plan would be to propose a structure for the repository (I like
  yours), go extract a lot of javadocs from our downloads to seed the
  repository, and come up with a simple-front-end to let people use them.
 
  An important requirement will be the need for a subproject/group to be
  able to link to a page that defines their javadoc, rather than at the top
  level.
 
  Hen
 
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr .
On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote:
- Original Message - From: Jim Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: general@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

Henri Yandell wrote:

It may be that leading contributor is, while not an 'Apache Way' to
discuss something, a completely true piece of investigative 
journalism.
There are definitely parts of Commons where a little bit of 
investigation
could point out that Yes, on DBUtils 1.0, David Graham was the lead
developer (Sorry David :) ).

That may be true, but certainly we do have the right and 
responsibility
to ensure that our desires, as far as how we run and represent 
ourselves,
is accurate as well.

It has always been a major foundation of the ASF that projects
are built and developed by communities, not individuals.
Terms such as lead or main do cause harm to the community
and have always been actively avoided.
And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from 
people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-).
I don't think that's very fair.  The ASF spends considerable time 
protecting it's IP, including trademarks, for all projects.

Just imagine if you read about Sun Tomcat or IBM Tomcat or you read 
that Microsoft controls 45% of Tomcat  ;)

geir
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote:
And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from 
people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-).

I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the
accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that
if it had been any other company with any other ASF project,
there would have been just the same discussion.
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Remy Maucherat
Jim Jagielski wrote:
On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote:
And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from 
people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-).
I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the
accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that
if it had been any other company with any other ASF project,
there would have been just the same discussion.
Cool :)
What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other 
company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ?

Can you prove me wrong ?
Rémy
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
Remy Maucherat wrote:
 
 Jim Jagielski wrote:
  On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Bill Barker wrote:
  
  And, yet, all of the complaints about the article have been from 
  people that aren't involved with Tomcat development ;-).
  
  I think that's an unfair statement... does that fact diminish the
  accuracy of what anyone is saying? I would also wager that
  if it had been any other company with any other ASF project,
  there would have been just the same discussion.
 
 Cool :)
 
 What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other 
 company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ?
 
 Can you prove me wrong ?
 

That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :)

But I would agree that other companies have occasionally
crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both
companies associated with ASF projects and external
companies that have no ties or links at all. In those
cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have
requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc...

And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's
anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented
(by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent
where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know*
it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least.

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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Remy Maucherat
Jim Jagielski wrote:
That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :)
But I would agree that other companies have occasionally
crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both
companies associated with ASF projects and external
companies that have no ties or links at all. In those
cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have
requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc...
And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's
anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented
(by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent
where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know*
it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least.
Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been 
crossed here. Cool debate ;)
The small mistake made on our wesite has been made by the entire Java 
industry. The person who wrote the page (it was not me) just made the 
same mistake everyone else did, period. Nobody is actually confused by 
it (since they were already confused), and there are no issue about 
confusion with another product.

At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems 
faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear 
magically.

I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my 
company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think 
they made all the necessary adjustments already. One thing is certain: I 
will not bother wasting my time to defend my company or myself in this 
kind of ridiculous thread. I already sent a couple emails with simple 
explanations when it was requested.

My personal view on the ASF is that I should do more code, less 
politics, which seems to bring more value. As a result, I am at the 
mercy of the politician gang ... Feels like real life, though ;)

Rémy
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Remy,

+1 to more code, less politics :) No one is gonna kick you out. All
of us are in this mess together :) :)

-- dims


On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:24:34 +0100, Remy Maucherat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jim Jagielski wrote:
  That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :)
 
  But I would agree that other companies have occasionally
  crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both
  companies associated with ASF projects and external
  companies that have no ties or links at all. In those
  cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have
  requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc...
 
  And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's
  anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented
  (by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent
  where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know*
  it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least.
 
 Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been
 crossed here. Cool debate ;)
 The small mistake made on our wesite has been made by the entire Java
 industry. The person who wrote the page (it was not me) just made the
 same mistake everyone else did, period. Nobody is actually confused by
 it (since they were already confused), and there are no issue about
 confusion with another product.
 
 At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems
 faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear
 magically.
 
 I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my
 company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think
 they made all the necessary adjustments already. One thing is certain: I
 will not bother wasting my time to defend my company or myself in this
 kind of ridiculous thread. I already sent a couple emails with simple
 explanations when it was requested.
 
 My personal view on the ASF is that I should do more code, less
 politics, which seems to bring more value. As a result, I am at the
 mercy of the politician gang ... Feels like real life, though ;)
 
 Rémy
 
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:24 AM, Remy Maucherat wrote:
Jim Jagielski wrote:
That would be kind of impossible to do, logically :)
But I would agree that other companies have occasionally
crossed lines that should not have been crossed, both
companies associated with ASF projects and external
companies that have no ties or links at all. In those
cases we (the ASF and/or the projects affected) have
requested retractions/corrections/removals/etc...
And as I've mentioned before, I don't think there's
anyone here who has not been misquoted or mis-represented
(by journalists or over-eager PR types) to the extent
where they were embarassed-to-angry about it. I *know*
it's a struggle. I'm not trivializing it in the least.
Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been 
crossed here. Cool debate ;)
My intent was not to make an accusation but rather a simple statement
that any issue we are talking about is not unique or particular
to any one company. Yes, I think the SD tagline is a line that was
crossed.
Geez... I go out of my way to make this NOT a JBoss thing, to
and it falls on deaf ears. How about reading the rest of the
Email instead of one line that you took the wrong way?
At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems 
faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear 
magically.
Oh foo. No one is remotely suggesting that.
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Danny Angus

 At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems
 faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear
 magically.

Oh grow up.
No one has criticised you, no one has complained that you are paid by
JBOSS,
no one has criticised your contributions, no one has prevented you from
expressing
your opinion in this debate or any other one, no one has suggested that you
pose any problem
at all.

The issue is not lets kick Remy out the issue is *only* that
The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss
implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor.

The fact is that JBOSS isn't a contributor, you guys are as individuals,
and if JBoss
gets this treatment then so should a load of other employers.

 I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my
 company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think
 they made all the necessary adjustments already.

Who amongst us can say that we're responsible for our employers actions, or
that we always think they are right?
Your bosses are big enough to take care of themselves.
Remy, no one would expect you to defend anything.

d.


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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Remy Maucherat
Jim Jagielski wrote:
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:24 AM, Remy Maucherat wrote:
Great, so you manage to sneak by an assertion that a line have been 
crossed here. Cool debate ;)

My intent was not to make an accusation but rather a simple statement
that any issue we are talking about is not unique or particular
to any one company. Yes, I think the SD tagline is a line that was
crossed.
Geez... I go out of my way to make this NOT a JBoss thing, to
and it falls on deaf ears. How about reading the rest of the
Email instead of one line that you took the wrong way?
There's still some murkiness in the branding. I sent an email, and it 
seems our PR person was told by Brian that Tomcat should be called 
Apache Jakarta Tomcat (which we actually used a while ago, but not 
anymore).

At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems 
faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear 
magically.
Oh foo. No one is remotely suggesting that.
If the issue is to reappear every time there's an article/PR/etc, then 
there's no point.

Rémy
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Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Hi,
Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)
Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where
so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements.
So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
we all know as Tomcat?
Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or
'Jakarta Tomcat'?
If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested
recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing
inside 'Apache Jakarta'?
Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
encrypted or evil :).
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Costin Manolache
Danny Angus wrote:
... the issue is *only* that
The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss
implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor.

Fact is that JBoss is _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any company 
that have committers working full time - in any project.
( in addition the architecture of tomcat5 is based on jboss jmx model, 
and that's _a_ major contribution as well )

Sun is also _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any other company 
that is funding tomcat developers. Code is written by people, but 
companies like JBoss or Sun are actually paying the bills. Of course, a 
lot of credit must go to people who manage to cut hours from their 
families and free time.

Leading contributor does not imply the only contributor or the only 
leading contributor.

Costin
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
Costin Manolache wrote:
 
 Danny Angus wrote:
 
  ... the issue is *only* that
  The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss
  implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor.
 
 
 Fact is that JBoss is _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any company 
 that have committers working full time - in any project.
 ( in addition the architecture of tomcat5 is based on jboss jmx model, 
 and that's _a_ major contribution as well )
 
 Sun is also _a_ major contributor to tomcat. So is any other company 
 that is funding tomcat developers. Code is written by people, but 
 companies like JBoss or Sun are actually paying the bills. Of course, a 
 lot of credit must go to people who manage to cut hours from their 
 families and free time.
 

++1!

 Leading contributor does not imply the only contributor or the only 
 leading contributor.
 

lead: ; leading:
  1. To guide on a way
  2. live (~ a quiet life)
  3. to direct the operations, activity, or performance of,
  4. to go at the head of; be first


No, leading does not imply sole or only, but it *does* imply
the sense of being first or the most significant, esp how
it was written.
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?

2005-03-21 Thread Henri Yandell

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote:
Hi,
Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)
Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where
so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements.
So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
we all know as Tomcat?
Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or
'Jakarta Tomcat'?
If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested
recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing
inside 'Apache Jakarta'?
Originally, Jakarta Tomcat. Logically, Apache Jakarta Tomcat as of a 
couple of years ago when the Apache side of Jakarta was being emphasised.

Last August there was a long thread in which it was agreed by consensus 
(ie it was suggested and nobody disagreed, and various people +1'd and 
acted including a couple of Tomcat committers) to make it Apache Tomcat.

However, it was hardly broadcast/followed up on (sorry, my fault) and 
confusion is not a surprise.

Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
I see two direct benefits.
1) Tomcat will have a much more direct channel to the board and will not 
be relying on me as a confused bystander. I use Tomcat regularly, but I'm 
only aware of dev issues at a surface level.

2) It makes my job easier :) The less there is to worry about oversight 
of, the less time I have to allot from coding to do oversight. Perhaps a 
bit simplistic.

I also think there are user benefits, TLPs are easier to understand, and 
in terms of a long term future for [EMAIL PROTECTED], it makes sense for Jakarta 
to be less of an umbrella as I don't believe we are likely to be able to 
setup the kind of system an umbrella needs to perform optimally (an entire 
second layer of management etc).

I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
encrypted or evil :).
Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision 
on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't 
want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community 
view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most 
weight.

Currently a list of -0's is just not enough to outweigh the general view 
from your Jakarta peers.

Hen
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Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
Personally, I think the Tomcat community is large enough and
healthy enough to warrant change to a TLP.
I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
encrypted or evil :).
Now you're just being paranoid ;)
But then again, when I pass your Email through my
patented is-it-evil.py Evil detection code, it
decodes as Bwaaa H Ha Ha! Ack!! :)
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Henri Yandell wrote:
Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose:
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn :)
My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision 
on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't 
want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta 
community view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the 
most weight.

I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions.
I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason).
Remy did, but he is French ;).
Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think.
Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's
up to those people to decide I suppose.
Regards,
Mladen
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?

2005-03-21 Thread Henri Yandell

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose:
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn :)
My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision on 
what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't want 
to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community view 
will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most weight.

I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions.
I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason).
Remy did, but he is French ;).
Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think.
Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's
up to those people to decide I suppose.
Our voting works on a +1/-1 basis, with +0 and -0 being used for 
non-binding vague inclination. I could be wrong but Bill, Remy, Costin and 
yourself are all basically saying -0. Costin has had a -1, but with 
conditions (ie that this is targetted solely at JBoss) that are (as 
someone with an expert understanding of the inside of my skull) easy to 
claim are not true.

Technically I guess it's up to the PMC members on the Tomcat subcommunity 
to decide, and you're all on this list.

I admit that it would be best for a -1 to come from Costin, Bill or Yoav, 
as yourself and Remy are in a less than desirable position when this stuff 
comes up.

Hen
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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Costin Manolache wrote:

 I'm +1 on your email if you are going to send the same kind of email for
 every use of Tomcat and if we are going to send an email every time a
 company or individual claims he is making 'lead contributions' to an
 apache project. And I would feel much better if such rules would be
 written down ( so we can point people to it - and use them in all cases).

 I'm -1 if this is only about Jboss, it's just not fair.

We have a PRC for the purpose, in part, of ensuring a consistent message
across the ASF.

--- Noel


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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Serge Knystautas wrote:

 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
 Remy Maucherat wrote:
it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.
 Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be
in
 conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the
case
 where the existing IP is owned by the company.  This applies equally to
IBM,
 Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.

 This is an accurate legal description but not really an issue to me.

I was addressing only that aspect of it.  The positioning aspect is much
more contentious.  I agree with your expression of discomfort at how
companies --- not just JBoss --- market their relationships, but that's
something I would be happy to defer to the PRC.

 I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow
 commercial involvement in their projects.  I'd love us to figure out how
we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting
when we feel a line is crossed.

+1

--- Noel


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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Remy Maucherat wrote:

 What if I, on the opposite, contend that if it had been any other
 company with any other ASF project, nobody would have bothered ?

 Can you prove me wrong ?

Multiple companies have, in fact, been contacted and dealt with over what
was perceived to be misleading PR and other things.  I don't want to discuss
which ones, so as not to revisit old wounds, but I was involved in at least
two other incidents that come to mind off-hand.  In all cases, I do feel
that such matters should be brought to the PRC.

You should convey to JBoss, as has been conveyed to other companies, that it
would be appreciated if their PR departments would work with our PRC before
releasing related PR.  That would get you, and most of the rest of us, out
of that path, and let you, and most of the rest of us, concentrate on
community development and code.

--- Noel


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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Jim Jagielski wrote:
 Mladen Turk wrote:
  Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
  propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?

I'd say that it is about time.

 I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
 is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
 of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
 encrypted or evil :).

I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture.  If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Cool, means so much to me.
I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture.  If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.
Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
Regards,
Mladen.
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Mladen Turk wrote:

 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
  I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.

 Cool, means so much to me.
 I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)

My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.

  If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
  getting caught in the crossfire.

 Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.

I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Henri Gomez
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.

As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.

What motivate the move to TLP now.

Regards


On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Mladen Turk wrote:
 
  Noel J. Bergman wrote:
   I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
 
  Cool, means so much to me.
  I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
 
 My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
 there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
 As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
 the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
 and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
 a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
 Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
 
   If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
   getting caught in the crossfire.
 
  Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
 
 I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
 
 --- Noel
 
 
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
Please, lets calm the things down.
Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
will still spin tomorrow.
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Torsten Curdt
 Please, lets calm the things down.
 Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
 will still spin tomorrow.

...that's an excellent ending for this discussion :)

Thanks
--
Torsten


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Stephen Colebourne
From: Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
What motivate the move to TLP now.
Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main 
task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises the 
question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these 
issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.

For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on 
emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have 
been a non-issue.

Stephen
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Pros:
- Tomcat pmc will be responsible for all its actions and decisions
- Report directly to board every quarter
- No meddling from outsiders (jakarta-general folks and others (read
jakarta pmc) from the peanut gallery :)
- Top Level domain - http://tomcat.apache.org/
- One of pmc members can become a VP 
- Tomcat committers (via pmc) will have full control over all affairs
including what to name the thingy :)

Cons:
- Can't think of any off the top of my head.

-- dims

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:27:32 +0100, Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
 
 As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
 this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
 
 What motivate the move to TLP now.
 
 Regards
 
 On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Mladen Turk wrote:
 
   Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
 
   Cool, means so much to me.
   I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
 
  My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
  there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
  As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
  the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
  and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
  a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
  Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
 
If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
getting caught in the crossfire.
 
   Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
 
  I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
 
  --- Noel
 
 
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Dims,

The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
associated with them, too.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Bill Barker

- Original Message -
From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?


 From: Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
 
  As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
  this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
 
  What motivate the move to TLP now.

 Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
 task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises
the
 question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
 issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.


Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire
Tomcat community.

I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all
know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision.

 For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on
 emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would
have
 been a non-issue.

 Stephen


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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
  Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from
  their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by
  Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big
  enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without
  the involvement of Jakarta.

 Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing
 the entire Tomcat community.

Where did you see that from what he said?  He correctly noted that moving to
TLP status has certain requirements, but no one has said that Tomcat does
not possess them.  Quite to the contrary from most notes I've read on this
thread.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Yes, Noel. i have the same feeling that Stephen has:

it seems likely (based on emails to the thread from Tomcat
committers) that this PR release would have been a non-issue. 

So the tomcat committers would be doing it on their own terms. with no
one pushing them. Quote from Mladen's email:

so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements

Quote from Costin's email makes me think that they are ready for it:

If tomcat would be a top level project instead of jakarta-tomcat,
most likely Remy would be the PMC chair. Acording to ASF rules, the
PMC chair is the ultimate decision maker for a project.

And i love the quote from Remy:

more code, less politics

So i'd say what is the benchmark for TLP? If the tomcat committers
want it and show the will to do it. Why not?

The only question in my mind is do they want it?

thanks,
dims

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:56:54 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dims,
 
 The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
 the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
 associated with them, too.
 
 --- Noel
 
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
 Please, lets calm the things down.
 Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
 will still spin tomorrow.

Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.  I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Please, lets calm the things down.
Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
will still spin tomorrow.
Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.  
I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 
miles.
Yeah, but that would result in some serious damage to the real-estate 
with all the buildings disintegrating and such.

Maybe the cheaper alternative is to get an upgrade to business class?
--- Noel
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Geir Magnusson Jr  +1-203-665-6437
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