Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto

[robert burrell donkin]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 03:51 PM, Costin Manolache wrote:




I would preffer that all portlet-related technology would be in the same
project and community, with JSP/struts/cocoon specific areas. Maybe an
"commons"-like project.


+1 (providing that andrew's reservations about pluto are resolved)

why not portlet.apache.org (with jetspeed and pluto as subprojects)?

(also within jakarta, of course :)

- robert


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Re: [DRAFT1] Jakarta Newsletter - August 2002

[robert burrell donkin]

(here's some bits and pieces from the commons.)

Jakarta Commons
===

The major subject for debate this month was the organization of the 
mailing lists (again):

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104376872026090&w=2

Jexl


Jexl was promoted from the Sandbox to the Commons this month.

Jexl is a java expression language designed for easy embedding in 
applications and frameworks. It is an extension of the Expression Language 
of the JSTL (JSP Standard Tag Library). The motivation was to bring some 
of lessons learned by the Jakarta Velocity community about expression 
languages in templating to a wider audience.

Those people familiar with Jelly will recognize this as the expression 
language used by Jelly.

BeanUtils
-

Finally the promised 1.6 release!

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104319227016196&w=2

This fixes a lot of bugs and rolls up the extra features add over the last 
few months. Unfortunately, some changes in this release effected some code 
used in maven and jelly. So expect a 1.6.1 release very soon.

Digester


The long awaited Digester 1.4 was released this month.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104430587104335&w=2

This fixes several bugs but also has some important changes to the Rule 
interface that allow more sophisticated namespace-aware rules.

Betwixt
---

At last betwixt has a release - but it's only an alpha. There a lot o 
features on the to do list but first must come some internal refactoring. 
So, this is an alpha release since the internal API may need to change but 
hopefully the disruption to most users can be kept to a minimum.

On a more light hearted note, it appears that betwixt now has some more 
competition:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104369586610737&w=2

Jelly
-

Another busy month!

Jelly has been successfully split into tag libraries and core:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104296001908752&w=2

Release issues have been resolved one by one:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104353140304195&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104335501905419
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104153070819002&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-dev&m=104101557728040&w=2

It's a long road but the end is now in sight.


On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 12:44 PM, Rob Oxspring wrote:

Jakarta Newsletter
==
Issue: 3
Date: August 2002
Url: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/200208.html

The third issue of the newsletter is upon us so lets have a look at what'
s been happening; I've been given an apache account and so
have been starting to beef up the newsletter archive page http://jakarta.
apache.org/site/news/, hopefully I'll get around to a front
page link soon to publicise this better. The Ant team have been resting 
themselves after a heavy couple of months, meanwhile the
guys at Avalon have been writing C# code and the ObjectRelationalBridge 
developers have been tackling some bugs and features.

Once again I want to thank those who contributed and hope that you enjoy 
the read. If you would like to comment further on any of
the highlighted discussions then please do so on the appropriate list, if 
you want to comment on the newsletter itself then please
point your comments to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Rob Oxspring

Contents

General
Ant
Avalon
Commons
Lucene
ObJectRelationalBridge



General
===
"Ideas, suggestions, and comments on the overall Jakarta project"
Editor: Rob Oxspring

The Gname effect was discussed at length thanks to a misdirected news 
posting from George Hester. The news <-> mail gateway is
enabling people to discover and use the Jakarta mailing lists without 
having to look at the mailing lists guidelines [1]. A couple
of solutions were offered namely adding usage information to the list's 
tagline, and blacklisting the gateways but no real
conclusion was drawn [2].

Thanks to a couple of enterprising Japanese guys, a Japanese language 
version of the jakarta site is taking shape [3,4] and there
was also some talk of how best to internationalise the site [5].

Sun's Scott McNealy expressed some controversial opinions about the open 
source approach. Sparks flew[6].

Can jakarta have members who are not linked to a particular subproject? 
Is the Jakarta-Site cvs module a subproject? should it be?
and should it have different voting rights to the other subprojects? All 
these questions and more were posed and discussed with few
conclusive answers forthcoming, see what you think [7].

[1] - http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html
[2] - 
http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@jakarta.
apache.org&from=210121&to=210121&count=27&by=thread
[3] - http://www.ingrid.org/jajakarta/index.html
[4] - 
http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@jakarta.
apache.org&by=thread&from

Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 12:26 AM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Charles Burdick wrote:

Selection criteria aside, I nominate Morgan for the PMC.
Now that I think of it, let me just skim through the
Jakarta-Announcements archive from various points last year.
 - Danny Angus
 - Peter Carlson
 - Morgan Delagrange
 - Pier Fumagalli
 - Ceki Gülcü
 - Dmitri Plotnikov
 - Phillip Rhodes
To add to the list, I'd like to nominate these active committers:
 - James Strachan
 - Jason van Zyl
 - Ted Husted
 - Rod Waldhoff


+1


(i can't see the original VOTE but i don't suppose that matters)

+1

- robert


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Re: PMC Nomination

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2003, at 11:42 PM, Stephen Colebourne wrote:


Yesterday I received the Jakarta Monthly Newsletter. Interesting as 
always,
until I got to the section on PMC nominations. There, I suddenly found my
name listed as elected to the Jakarta PMC. This came as a complete 
surprise
and shock to me.

When I followed the relevant link, I discovered that a discussion had 
taken
place on this list, but I was not subscribed to general@jakarta (unless I'
m
mistaken, I'm not required to subscribe). At no point was a personal email
sent to myself (or I guess the others nominated). I feel as though I have
been pressganged.

actively inviting new PMC members to join is something that i think should 
be done.

in the same way that a developer receives a letter from apache (after a 
successful vote) inviting them to become a committer, i'd say that 
committers who have been voted onto the PMC should receive a letter 
explaining the role of a PMC member and asking them if they'd be willing 
to join.

- robert


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

hi ceki

wouldn't it be less confusing to have a separate vote for mark?

while i'm thinking about it, is general or pmc the right place for votes 
of this kind?

- robert

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 09:15 PM, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

At 19:26 13.02.2003 -0500, you wrote:

Charles Burdick wrote:

Selection criteria aside, I nominate Morgan for the PMC.
Now that I think of it, let me just skim through the
Jakarta-Announcements archive from various points last year.
 - Danny Angus
 - Peter Carlson
 - Morgan Delagrange
 - Pier Fumagalli
 - Ceki Gülcü
 - Dmitri Plotnikov
 - Phillip Rhodes
To add to the list, I'd like to nominate these active committers:
 - James Strachan
 - Jason van Zyl
 - Ted Husted
 - Rod Waldhoff


+1

I'd like to add Mark Womack to the list of candidates.


- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 10:25 PM, Ceki Gülcü wrote:


Hi Robert,

I think Mark's nomination follows the sprit set by Sam's initial note.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104275438831116&w=2

As such, I don't see a need for a separate vote.


my reasoning was purely pragmatic :)

last time, some names were attached in a similar way but failed to gain 
the required votes because no one was aware that it was a separate vote.

- robert


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

does anyone know the apache login name for:

  - Phillip Rhodes

?

- robert

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 10:41 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Henri Yandell wrote:

Just a view against the 'jump right in and nominate a person at a time'
idea.


+1

FYI: My preference is for monthly batches.  My aim was to complete each 
batch in time for the board meeting, but this one went astray...

Suggestion: let's call this round complete at this time, and start a new 
round next month.  I'll notify the board later tonight that everyone in 
the following list (minus Pier) is to be added to the Jakarta PMC:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104518242028805&w=2

At the same time, I will also request that Stephen Colebourne be 
dismissed without prejudice [1] from the roster of the Jakarta PMC.

Next month, lets start with the nominations that didn't quite make this 
round, and add to the list.

- Sam Ruby

[1] http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d062.htm


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[RESULT][PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

the following committers have passed the PMC nomination vote proposed by 
sam ruby:

  - Danny Angus
  - Peter Carlson
  - Morgan Delagrange
  - Ceki Gülcü
  - Dmitri Plotnikov
  - Phillip Rhodes
  - James Strachan
  - Jason van Zyl
  - Ted Husted
  - Rod Waldhoff

i'm sending this to let you all know.

the role of jakarta PMC is changing but rather than give an opinion and 
pretend some authority i don't have, take a look at this thread:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104561165403863&w=2

i hope you'll accept the nomination.

- robert

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 10:41 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:



Suggestion: let's call this round complete at this time, and start a new 
round next month.  I'll notify the board later tonight that everyone in 
the following list (minus Pier) is to be added to the Jakarta PMC:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104518242028805&w=2

At the same time, I will also request that Stephen Colebourne be 
dismissed without prejudice [1] from the roster of the Jakarta PMC.

Next month, lets start with the nominations that didn't quite make this 
round, and add to the list.

- Sam Ruby

[1] http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d062.htm


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Re: [RESULT][PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 09:13 AM, Henri Gomez wrote:


robert burrell donkin wrote:

the following committers have passed the PMC nomination vote proposed by 
sam ruby:
  - Danny Angus
  - Peter Carlson
  - Morgan Delagrange
  - Ceki Gülcü
  - Dmitri Plotnikov
  - Phillip Rhodes
  - James Strachan
  - Jason van Zyl
  - Ted Husted
  - Rod Waldhoff
i'm sending this to let you all know.
the role of jakarta PMC is changing but rather than give an opinion and 
pretend some authority i don't have, take a look at this thread:

What do you means by passed the PMC nomination ?


one of the problems we have in the commons is the number of votes which 
spawn threads which go on for ever without any clear conclusion. that's 
why i think that announcing clearly when a vote is finished is a good 
thing.

this particular round of voting starts with sam: http://marc.theaimsgroup.
com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104518242028805&w=2

sam suggests that the vote is finished here: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/
?l=jakarta-general&m=104569451208501&w=2

why forward the result to the relevant people?

in the last round some people elected were never even informed. i think 
that the people should be informed:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104568409524148&w=2

sam replies:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104568599627074&w=2

so that's why i forwarded the result to everyone concerned.


is this an experiment which shouldn't be repeated?

or does it just need refining?

- robert


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Re: Karma request jakarta-site2

[robert burrell donkin]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 07:33 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:

I'd like to join the bandwagon.  I would like karma and permission to
advertise major Tapestry releases on the Jakarta main page.
it's not within my power to grant you karma but if you do add a news item 
about tapestry to the jakarta news page, then it'd to good if you could 
remember to give a brief explanation of what tapestry is. (this isn't 
singling tapestry out - it's just easy to forget that news is read by a 
lot of people.)

it'd also be great if you could keep an eye out for the february jakarta 
newsletter (it'll be announced on general) and get someone to write 
something for it about tapestry.

- robert

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Re: Vendor Listing

[robert burrell donkin]

please submit a patch for the vendor page :)

- robert

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 08:24 PM, Gary Gwin wrote:

Friends,

We would like to be considered for a complete solution provider listing:

company name/website: Cafésoft
  http://www.cafesoft.com/services/projects.html
   brief description:
We design and implement secure web applications including web single 
sign-on and centrally managed, policy-based access control to Apache and 
Tomcat resources. We use our software toolkit, design patterns, and open 
source to meet business needs. Our experience includes: Ant, Struts, 
Lucene, Log4J, JMeter, Tomcat, JBoss, OpenLDAP, and MySQL.

  City/State/Country: San Diego, CA, USA
   email contact: info at cafesoft dot com
Thank you,

Gary

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Re: Jakarta-POI 1.10.0-dev released

[robert burrell donkin]

IMHO it's quite a bit more involved that preparing a old-style release.

i'm currently preparing a revised release procedure document for commons. 
this will contain detailed instructions on how i mirrored the recent 
releases i cut.

- robert

On Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 02:38 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Thanks for trying but it doesn't exactly say HOW does one prepare a 
release such that it will/can be mirrored.
-Andy

Magesh Umasankar wrote:

Glen can find some pointers here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=apache-httpd-dev&m=103578980325833&w=2
Not trying to be picky, but in addition to poi-dev and poi-user, an 
announcement sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be more 
appropriate and target the right audience, IMHO.

Congrats on the release!

Cheers,
Magesh
- Original Message - From: "Andrew C. Oliver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

While I was on my Western US tour, Glen cut the next "dev" release of 
POI.  You may find it here:
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/src/ and
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/bin/

Why we skipped a release number, only Glen would know.  :-)

We do not yet follow whatever conventions we're supposed to be following 
for mirroring because no one has described it intelligibly on any public 
list to which Glen is subscribed.

Enjoy.

-Andy



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Re: Jakarta-POI 1.10.0-dev released

[robert burrell donkin]

this page contains more detailed advice about setting up the mirroring:

http://cvs.apache.org/~bodewig/mirror.html

- robert

On Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 03:59 AM, Kurt Schrader wrote:

Google says:
http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html
-Kurt

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Thanks for trying but it doesn't exactly say HOW does one prepare a
release such that it will/can be mirrored.
-Andy

Magesh Umasankar wrote:

Glen can find some pointers here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=apache-httpd-dev&m=103578980325833&w=2
Not trying to be picky, but in addition to poi-dev and poi-user,
an announcement sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be
more appropriate and target the right audience, IMHO.
Congrats on the release!

Cheers,
Magesh
- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
While I was on my Western US tour, Glen cut the next "dev" release of
POI.  You may find it here:
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/src/ and
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/bin/
Why we skipped a release number, only Glen would know.  :-)

We do not yet follow whatever conventions we're supposed to be following
for mirroring because no one has described it intelligibly on any public
list to which Glen is subscribed.
Enjoy.

-Andy



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Re: [PATCH] promoted sub-projects

[robert burrell donkin]

maybe we could change 'SubProjects' (which is more to do with internal 
organization at apache) to something more positive like 'Jakarta Is'. that 
would make it easier for projects who want to retain an association with 
jakarta to keep their listing.

- robert

On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 01:30 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

I prefer to do nothing.  Most projects were promised (for better or worse)
 that they could keep the jakarta brand if they got promoted.
Danny Angus wrote:
Although I've got karma I thought I should get some kind of opinion..
This patch moves ANT, AVALON and JAMES links from the sub-projects into 
a new menu section "promoted".
Should I apply this, or just remove James and Avalon (ant is already 
gone), or do nothing, or do something different?
d.
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Re: XDoclet, XJavaDoc, Apache and Licensing

[robert burrell donkin]

i think that licensing would be the right list to ask on.

i believe that XDoclet would now have to be incubated (rather than going 
straight into jakarta). i think that one of the functions of the 
incubation process would be to give definite answers on these kinds of 
questions.

- robert

On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 02:51 PM, Erik Hatcher wrote:

Is there some other e-mail list where we should should discuss the  
xjavadoc licensing issue?  infrastructure?  Or...???

Thanks,
Erik
On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 08:54  AM, Aslak Hellesøy wrote:

Hello,

The XDoclet project (http://xdoclet.sourceforge.net/) is considering
applying for Jakarta/Apache membership. Before we get into that  process,
we'd like to clarify some licensing issues we think we might have.
XJavaDoc (a sub project of XDoclet) is a library that parses Java  source
files and makes information about the source files (including comments  
and
JavaDoc tags) available via an API. The XJavaDoc API is similar to the
com.sun.javadoc API, which is the core of Sun's JavaDoc engine.  
XJavaDoc is
used in favour of Sun's JavaDoc core because it is faster, more feature
rich, and we have complete control over the source code.

XJavaDoc and JavaDoc offer very similar functionality, and have similar
APIs.
The main differences are:

1) XJavaDoc returns java.util.Collection where JavaDoc returns arrays.
2) XJavaDoc uses Java Bean style naming conventions for methods.  JavaDoc
doesn't.
3) XJavaDoc delegates all JavaDoc comment information to an XDoc class.
JavaDoc uses an inheritance model.
4) XJavaDoc's parser is implemented with JavaCC, JavaDoc uses  
proprietary
sun.* classes from the javac compiler.
5) XJavaDoc's API does not use or implement any of the com.sun.javadoc
classes.
6) XJavaDoc has a richer API than JavaDoc.

Furthermore:

7) XJavaDoc only has runtime dependencies to Jakarta Commons Logging  and
Jakarta Commons Collections.
8) XJavaDoc's API: http://xdoclet.sourceforge.net/xjavadoc/apidocs/  
(Look at
XJavaDoc, XClass, XMethod, XDoc and XTag for starters).
9) XJavaDoc in ViewCVS:
http://cvs.xdoclet.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xdoclet/ xjavadoc/
10) XJavaDoc in CVS: xjavadoc CVS module:
http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=31602

We believe that these differences are sufficient in order to avoid  
potential
licensing problems with Sun.

QUESTIONS TO THE JAKARTA TEAM:

1) Can anyone with more knowledge about licenses tell me whether  
XJavaDoc is
in violation with Sun's license for JavaDoc?
2) Would it be fair to claim that XJavaDoc is *not* a clean room
implementation of JavaDoc?
3) Is there anything we should do (from a legal perspective) before we  
start
working on a proposal for Jakarta/Apache membership for  
XDoclet/XJavaDoc?

Best regards,
Aslak Hellesøy - The XDoclet Team.
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Re: [PATCH] typo at site/news.xml

[robert burrell donkin]

committed. many thanks.

- robert

On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 03:20 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

Hi,

I noticed that there's typo (webbaster -> webmaster)
at xdocs/site/news.xml and created a patch (zipped).
Please apply this.
Sincerely,

--
Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Jakarta-site access & PMC membership for howard lewis ship

[robert burrell donkin]

On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 11:14 PM, Danny Angus wrote:

Andy wrote:

I'd like to propose that Howard Lewis Ship be given jakarta-site
access and
I hereby nominate him for the Jakarta PMC.
+1 to both.
+1 to both

- robert

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Re: [PATCH] index.xml patch for introduction to related projects (was Re: [PATCH] Re: Jakarta Newsletter ...)

[robert burrell donkin]

i quite like the idea of adding a table giving introductions for related 
projects but i know some other people think that the welcome page is too 
big already.

opinions, anybody?

- robert

On Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 01:29 PM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

Hi, Robert and all.


applied. many thanks.

i hope you'll find some time to add something about BCEL (and maybe James
too) to the next newsletter
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaNewsletterDrafts/Issue9.
Thanks you very much. I confirmed.
Sure, I will take care of the wiki if possible.
Then, I created a new patch for
1. Correcting the order of "James Released" and "Scalab released" in
"other news" section.
2. Adding Tapestry, in proposal, to the table of products list.
3. Creating new table for Ant, Avalon, DB, Incubator and James Projects
(Jakarta-Related Projects).
The look and feel of new index.html might be ..
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/index.en.html
I think this will avoid the confusion for all the new comer
to jakarta (and also for the elder, senior jakarta-n ;-)
and will be easy introduction to the related (maybe merged into
jakarta soon) projects.
Sincerely,

Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



-
Index: xdocs/index.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.188
diff -u -r1.188 index.xml
--- xdocs/index.xml	24 May 2003 10:28:40 -	1.188
+++ xdocs/index.xml	24 May 2003 12:21:40 -
@@ -57,9 +57,9 @@
 and Elsewhere
 
 22 May 2003 - 
Jakarta Newsletter Issue 8 Released
+12 May 2003 
- James 2.1.3 released.
 5 May 2003 
- Scarab 1.0 Beta 14 Released By
 Tigris.org
-12 May 2003 
- James 2.1.3 released.
 12 April 2003 - 
 POI Project News Feed
 9 April 2003 
- Ant 1.5.3 released.
 8 April 2003 
- LDAPd 0.7 released.
@@ -69,12 +69,13 @@

 

-Jakarta groups products in three general categories:
+Jakarta groups products in four general categories:
 
 Libraries, Tools, and APIs
 Frameworks and Engines
 Server Applications
-
+Products in Proposal
+
 
 
@@ -114,13 +115,6 @@
 A reliable, fast and extensible logging library for 
Java.
 
 
-http://db.apache.org/ojb";>OJB
:
-
-ObJectRelationalBridge (OJB) is an Object/Relational mapping tool that
-allows transparent persistence for Java Objects against relational 
databases.
-
-
-
 ORO:
 Set of text-processing Java classes that provide Perl5 
compatible regular expressions, AWK-like regular expressions, glob 
expressions, and utility classes for performing substitutions, splits, 
filtering filenames, etc.
 
@@ -146,10 +140,6 @@
 Frameworks and Engines
 
 
-http://avalon.apache.org/";>Avalon:
-Avalon is component-oriented programming project 
consisting of: Framework, the core framework for COP; Excalibur, common 
utilities written as components; Phoenix, a server framework; Cornerstone,
 blocks for use in a Phoenix server; and, Logkit, logging facilities.
-
-
 Cactus:
 Cactus is a simple test framework for unit testing 
server-side Java code (servlets, EJBs, tag libraries, filters, ...).
 
@@ -192,10 +182,6 @@
 Alexandria is a CVS/Javadoc/Source code/Documentation 
management system meant for use within Open Source projects.
 
 
-http://james.apache.org/";>James<
/a>:
-James is an email/news/messaging server written in Java.
 It uses the Avalon component framework. It currently supports SMTP, POP3 
and NNTP with IMAP coming shortly.
-
-
 Jetspeed<
/a>:
 A Java user customizable portal system based Turbine 
framework
 
@@ -211,13 +197,90 @@
 Tomcat 4
:
 Tomcat 4 is the official Reference Implementation of 
the Servlet 2.3 and JavaServer Pages 1.2 technologies.
 
+
+
+Products in 
Proposal
+
+
+
>Tapestry:
+Tapestry is a powerful, open-source, all-Java framework 
for creating leading edge web applications in Java. Tapestry is an 
alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or 
Velocity.
+
+
+
+
+Jakarta related projects:
+
+Apache Ant Project
+Apache Avalon Project
+Apache DB Project
+Apache Incubator Project
+Apache James Project
+
+
+
+
+Apache 
Ant Project
+
+
+
+http://ant.apache.org/";>Ant
+
+Ant is a Java-based build tool. In theory, it is kind 
of like Make, but without Make's wrinkles.
+
+
+
+Apache 
Avalon Project
+
+
+
+http://avalon.apache.org/";>Avalon
+
+Avalon is component-oriented programming project 
consisting of: Framework, the core framework for COP; Excalibur, common 
utilities written as components; Phoenix, a server framework; Cornerstone,
 blocks for use in a Phoenix server; and, Logkit, logging facilities.
+
+
+
+Apache DB 
Project
+
+
+
+http://db.apache.org/torque/";>Torque
+
+Torque is a persistence layer. Torque includes a 
generator to generate all the database resources required by your 
application and includes 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tetsuya committer at large: Jakarta

[robert burrell donkin]

On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 10:14 AM, Danny Angus wrote:

Andy proposed:

I would like to nominate Tetsuya Kitahata to be a Jakarta committer with
rights to jakarta-general.
Given that Tetsuya is doing so much to publicise Jakarta in the "Far East"
 and has been maintaining Japanese translations of many jakarta (& former 
jakarta) sub-project sites for a while now, and considering the precedent 
that Rob Oxspring is a "documentation only" contributor I heartily agree 
with this nomination.

+1
+1

- robert

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Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9

[robert burrell donkin]

it's about time for people to start thinking about the jakarta newsletter.
 once again, it will be collated on the wiki. you can find it at:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaNewsletterDrafts/Issue9

i was the guest editor for issue 8 and (if no one else steps up) i'd be 
willing to edit issue 9. i seem to have a whole lot of things to do and 
too little time to do them at the moment so i'd be very grateful if 
someone else volunteered to edit issue 9. (i can supply instructions.) 
anyone fancy the job?

- robert

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Commons EL 1.0 Released

[robert burrell donkin]

AFAIK (hopefully someone will correct me if i'm wrong) EL is an 
implementation of a standard (JSP2.0 expression language) whereas JEXL is 
an extended version of the language with velocity-inspired features.

- robert

On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 11:58 AM, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

Someone cares to explain the difference between JEXL and this one?

Pier

"Jan Luehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The Commons EL team is pleased to announce the first official release of
Commons EL from the Apache Software Foundation.
Commons EL provides an interpreter for the Expression Language that is
part of the JavaServer Pages (JSP) specification, version 2.0.
For more details, see the Release Notes at

http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/el/RELEASE-NOTES.txt

The binary distribution is available at

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.cgi,

and the source distribution at

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/sourceindex.cgi

Please remember to verify the signatures of the distribution bundles 
using
the keys found at

http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/el/KEYS

For more information on Commons EL, go to

http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el.html

Jan Luehe


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Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9

[robert burrell donkin]

otis isn't wrong but it's really at the whim of the editor. (that's why i 
made it bi-monthly.)

if no one else step forward in the next couple of says, then i'll have to 
do the job and so i'll post up some sort of guidance about times.

- robert

On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 06:13 AM, otisg wrote:

It is supposed to be a monthly newsletter, so completion would
be by the end of this week or so.
Otis


Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
 On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Mark Womack ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
Is there a target date for completion?

-Mark
- Original Message -
From: "robert burrell donkin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:28 AM
Subject: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9

it's about time for people to start thinking about the
jakarta newsletter.
  once again, it will be collated on the wiki. you can find
it at:



http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaNewsletterDrafts/Issue9
i was the guest editor for issue 8 and (if no one else steps
up) i'd be
willing to edit issue 9. i seem to have a whole lot of
things to do and
too little time to do them at the moment so i'd be very
grateful if
someone else volunteered to edit issue 9. (i can supply
instructions.)
anyone fancy the job?

- robert



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Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9

[robert burrell donkin]

On Friday, June 27, 2003, at 06:53 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

I'd been off for a while, so I've read this mail a little while ago.

I'd like to do the volunteer.
cool.

How/When can I do this?
right here, right now!

the newsletter needs to get moving very soon so unless rob oxspring (the 
original editor) expresses an interest to editor newsletter 9 soon, you've 
got the job!

i promised rob that i'd create a newsletter-how-to-page on the jakarta so 
i'll try to put something together this weekend.

 Should this be monthly? or bi-monthly?
originally it was monthly but it's a lot of work and the monthly editions 
tended to be very, very late. i switched to bi-monthly since it think that 
this should allow the issues to be released more promptly.

really IMHO the direction of the newsletter is a matter for the community 
but with the editor taking the lead. i have some ideas but i'll probably 
post them in another email.

I'll prepare the 'Products List avaliable as of the end of  ' soon.
(similar to what I posted to this mailing list last month)
Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

-

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:28:59 +0100
(Subject: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9)
robert burrell donkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
it's about time for people to start thinking about the jakarta 
newsletter.
  once again, it will be collated on the wiki. you can find it at:

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaNewsletterDrafts/Issue9

i was the guest editor for issue 8 and (if no one else steps up) i'd be
willing to edit issue 9. i seem to have a whole lot of things to do and
too little time to do them at the moment so i'd be very grateful if
someone else volunteered to edit issue 9. (i can supply instructions.)
anyone fancy the job?
- robert


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Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9

[robert burrell donkin]

hi Tetsuya

do you still want the job? if so, it's yours!

the first stage of the process is to think about some kind of editorial 
deadline (in order to concentrate the minds of potential contributors). 
you then need to tell everyone about it and persuade as many people as 
possible to contribute. this probably needs to start ASAP.

- robert

On Friday, June 27, 2003, at 06:53 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

I'd been off for a while, so I've read this mail a little while ago.

I'd like to do the volunteer. How/When can I do this?
 Should this be monthly? or bi-monthly?
I'll prepare the 'Products List avaliable as of the end of  ' soon.
(similar to what I posted to this mailing list last month)
Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

-

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:28:59 +0100
(Subject: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9)
robert burrell donkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
it's about time for people to start thinking about the jakarta 
newsletter.
  once again, it will be collated on the wiki. you can find it at:

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaNewsletterDrafts/Issue9

i was the guest editor for issue 8 and (if no one else steps up) i'd be
willing to edit issue 9. i seem to have a whole lot of things to do and
too little time to do them at the moment so i'd be very grateful if
someone else volunteered to edit issue 9. (i can supply instructions.)
anyone fancy the job?
- robert


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Re: The vendors page

[robert burrell donkin]

FWIW i think that the original arguments which lead to the creation of the 
vendors page are still relevant. it's very hard for any folks here to 
judge the merit (or otherwise) of companies providing support. on the 
other hand, there was a definite demand from users and vendors for a 
dating service.

the original rule seemed to be a good one (a minimal test which some 
vendors have failed) as well having the merit of simplicity. on the other 
hand i do think that andrew's arguments have served a useful purpose in 
making us think harder about the purpose of that page. i also agree with 
alex in that probably the future direction is to something more 
apache-wide.

on the other hand, i think that michael's answers have been reasonable and 
give him at least as much a reason as many of the existing vendors. unless 
i hear some good reasons not to, i'll probably commit something along 
those lines sometime soonish. i might also try to think of some ways to 
reorganize the page.

- robert

On Thursday, July 3, 2003, at 10:08 AM, Alex McLintock wrote:

At 09:51 02/07/03 -0400, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
I'm tending towards the argument that if you can convince someone who 
has the right access to update
the vendors.xml
page, then you deserve to be on the list.





> Yep - so basically this should be decided on a subproject-level in
> Jakarta's case. I doubt *anyone* is able to support *all* Jakarta
> subprojects on a level that he/she serves his customers well.
> Suggestion: move this page away from the Jakarta main site, and
> stimulate subprojects to host their own vendor pages.
>
> 
> --
> Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/


I'm not sure of the point of a Vendors page. There are so many different 
types of "vendors" covering so many projects that a single page - or even 
a single XML is not necessarily the right thing.

I started a database of companies who support open source software but I 
am not sure it is the right as it is.

I think Apache has grown large enough to need a database of trainers, 
consultants, developers, vendors, and other support companies who will 
provide assistence with using Apache software.

We had a small mailing list for discussing these sorts of commercial 
aspects to using Apache software but it never really got off the ground.

Alex McLintock

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Re: XML Beans advertised on Jakarta ... Re: Vote for XMLBeans proposal

[robert burrell donkin]

On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 03:01 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
On 7/7/03 2:09 PM, "robert burrell donkin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
XMLBeans feels (to me) like a jakarta component but if xml are happy to
manage it, i'd say that it'd probably work out easier that way. there 
isn'
t any reason why XMLBeans couldn't be visible on the jakarta website and
as part of the jakarta community (which seem to be the main advantages
which components see in joining jakarta) whilst being managed by the xml
pmc (which would host their site and primary link).
I'd object to that personally.  We link projects which were in Jakarta
historically and have become top level projects, but we do not link all of
the XML projects.  I'd object to that not only on practical concerns but
with the logic "Then I'd like POI linked from the XML site" ;-)
why shouldn't POI be linked from the XML site as well as the jakarta one?

- robert

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Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?

[robert burrell donkin]

On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:



I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization 
framework within Jakarta.  But then I have been assuming that there are 
non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and 
other users of the code.
i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english 
speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than 
committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are 
native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to 
spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.

but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if 
that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end 
up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in 
xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n 
framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an 
idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.

i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested 
by Tetsuya Kitahata.

- robert

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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project

[robert burrell donkin]

i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both 
inside and outside.

 andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside 
apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i 
also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not 
only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members 
step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground.

- robert

On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

-1 this would exclude possible interested international folks.  We should
keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation.  It seems 
the
consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
project, rather a Jakarta subproject.

(To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only 
message
on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG.  You can set up 
message
filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either
place)

A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
included in my message below.
I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself.  Is there anyone else
interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
below)?  Is there anything else we should consider before requesting 
entry
into incubation?

TIA.
Robert Simpson
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
From: robert burrell donkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:



I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common 
internationalization
framework within Jakarta.  But then I have been assuming that there are
non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
other users of the code.
i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members 
than
committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.

but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even 
if
that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.

i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
by Tetsuya Kitahata.
- robert

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
Reply-To: "Jakarta General List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, 
the
solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) 
identified
in the XML with a version number.  Then it would be a simple matter to 
have a
program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation 
needs to
be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
section via machine translation, to be refined by the human 
translator).  The
XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for 
example)
or as a translation of another version.  That way, no particular 
translation
would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be 
identified
and handled.  For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could 
then
be translated back into the original and other translations.  This 
arrangement
could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a 
Spanish
translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be 
commented on
(ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted o

Re: mail2.html -> mail.html

[robert burrell donkin]

jakarta came round to having two pages for mail subscriptions after having 
years of regular problems with people joining the lists who had no idea 
about how to behave. the pages are user unfriendly but the old solution 
(ie publically and vocally humiliating posters on list) was worse (since 
it discouraged many lurkers with valuable opinions from speaking out for 
fear of being shot down in flames).

i don't think that reading through a page of instructions is too much to 
ask for the benefit of the community not having to waste time and energy 
shooting down ignorant and disruptive posters. one proof that this policy 
works is that the last occasion that i can remember this being necessary 
was with somebody who'd subscribed via news.

i would support a move of the other information on the deeper page (about 
the archives, for example) to a better location. i'd also be happy to 
support some alternative system (maybe using ezmlm) which was equally 
effective. i'd also support any sub-project who was happy about being 
listed on the front page being moved there.

- robert

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 10:50 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:02:57 +0100
"Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue,
I'm still dead against this, and likely to remain so until someone
can explain to me why it would be better than what we currently have.
1.

Current pages are user-*un*friendly:
My proposal is user-friendly:
*user* means "future developer", who might devote to the
jakarta activities and the ASF activities in the future.
I can not find any good reasons to keep current pages unchanged,
in other words.
2.

Please see Andrew and Henri's comments. These implied the *reason*
what you wanted, I think.
What we have is (as far as I'm aware) the result of responding to the
actions of people in respect of the mailing lists, and intended to reduce
the amount of brain-dead misuse. I'd worrry that changing it would
re-introduce problems.
I am not sure whether all the subscribers have read the guideline
completely and have respect to mailing lists.
If they are wise enough and given that people had read mail.html page,
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/micromail.html
would not have dead linked pages * at all*, I think.
(This page is now linked by site/mail.html, as you all can see.
And .. sorry I do not use any mail clients/ servers created by MS, so
I won't/can't apply any changes to this page)
Also, I am not sure whether it would re-introduce problems. Aren't
there any alternative method which fulfill these two? :
1.  Keep User-Friendli-ness
2.  Avoid Trouble
I suggested various approaching methods in the past. Probably,
there might be much *better* way.
If there is an issue with lists being hard to find, or instructions
unclear lets hear it.
*chicken* and *egg*. Who felt hardness to find *appropriate list*
won't come to this list and can not comment to your line. You'll
not be able to hear their voices.
Also,
it takes at least 10-30 seconds to find the *appropriate*
lists out even though using *Ctrl+F* at current site/mail2.html.
What would happen after directly, simply indicating the *appropriate*
lists??? (again)
e.g.   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#general
--

I think the policy of Apache (Jakarta) might have had "A Patchy"
spirits, providing experimental space for all the people.
There are no reason for letting the beginners feel unease, enforce
them to wander off and get lost in the jakarta desert.
Why not adopting "Easy to entry: Learn more here" approaching method??


I am trying to reduce the user-*un*friendli-ness from jakarta gradually..
.
Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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move user lists to mail.html from mail2.html? [WAS Re: mail2.html -> mail.html]

[robert burrell donkin]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 02:15 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

Thank you for the comment, Robert.

TO tell the truth, my original motivation to arise this
issue was concering to the upcoming newsletter.
I published the final "Jakarta Newsletter" in early
this month and I found I made some mistakes. Also,
there was something which I got aware:
<<1>>

I've forgot to append the URL of Apache Ant. There might
be someone who came to jakarta-general, not knowing
that Ant had been separated and have own mailng lists.
<<2>>

I wrote:
'If you would like to comment further on any of the highlighted
discussions then please do so on the appropriate list [4],

 [4] - http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html'
However, at the same time I felt guilty about this .. thinking
"Oh, how user unfriendly I am!"
i've been thinking about this and i think that maybe there's a way to 
change the pages that will improving things for users whilst still 
preventing problems with people not reading the rules. this is really only 
a major problem for developer lists.

maybe we could try moving the user lists to the bottom of the first page 
and then leave the link to the developer lists on the second page. maybe 
the extra space could be used to add some links that of interest for 
potential contributors.

- robert

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changes to download page

[robert burrell donkin]

i've just committed some pretty significant changes to the download pages 
on the jakarta website. as some of you will already be aware, the ASF has 
to pay for bandwidth and this means that it's very important to move from 
the old system of release directories to the new mirrored ones.

from the statistics collected by infrastructure, it appears that even for 
jakarta releases available through the mirrors, many people prefer to 
download them from the main distribution site. in an attempt to persuade 
people to do the right thing, i've link the signature, md5 and KEYS files 
(from the main apache site) directly and moved all the downloads from the 
main site into a subsidary page.

1. this now means that subprojects which do not have the latest release in 
the mirrored directories are no longer linked from the main download page.
 please do not add a link to the unmirrored directories, instead move your 
latest release to the mirrors. here's a step by step guide http://jakarta.
apache.org/site/convert-to-mirror.html.

2. i've done my best to check but there's a high probability that there 
are bugs out there on these download pages. i'd appreciate it if people 
could take a look.

- robert

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Re: Publicizing ApacheCon 2003

[robert burrell donkin]

i like the logo. (unless someone beats me to it) i'll add a news item as 
well.

if someone could let us know when sessions are available, then we can 
change to a  logo with 'sessions-now-available' byline and probably post 
something to announcements as well. (it'd be cool if someone involved with 
the organization could write up something so that top level projects would 
have something well written to post.)

- robert

On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 01:41 PM, Glenn Nielsen wrote:

+1 But wait until the sessions are available at www.apachecon.com

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
Hello everyone,
Apachecon 2003 will take place in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, 16-19
November 2003.
For this event to be the success that it deserves to have, we need to
make an effort to publicize it as much as possible.
I have created a series of icons that one can use to link to
http://www.ApacheCon.com. The icons are available at
  http://www.apache.org/~ceki/ac2003/
We should at least add a salient image on the sidebar of the jakarta
pages.
Comments?


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Re: Publicizing ApacheCon 2003

[robert burrell donkin]

ken

i don't suppose that you've got a few word-of-wisdom about ApacheCon that 
you'd like to contribute (so they can be put in the news section and 
posted to announcement) have you?

- robert

On Thursday, September 4, 2003, at 09:05 PM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:

Brian McCallister wrote:
Actually, as registration isn't open yet, the early-bird is quite a
farce.
i rather resent that remark.
--
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Patch for jakarta-site2/.../whoweare.xml

[robert burrell donkin]

hi otis

IIRC the current policy is that any jakarta committer who wants access to 
the site module will be granted it on request. i'd like to encourage 
people to take an active interest in maintaining and improving the site so 
i'd hope that you'll ask for jakarta-site karma. since you're a pmc member,
 probably the easiest and quickest way would be to post a request for 
karma on the pmc list.

- robert

On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:12 PM, otisg wrote:

Hello,

I'm a Jakarta PMC member and would like to add my email address
and a bit about me to jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/whoweare.xml.
Unfortunately, I don't have the priviledges to commit my change,
so attached please find the patch.
I would appreciate it if somebody could apply this change on my
behalf.
Thank you,
Otis Gospodnetic

Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
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Re: Patch for jakarta-site2/.../whoweare.xml

[robert burrell donkin]

On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 05:05 PM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:27:50 -0400
otisg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thank you for the promptness!
Okeydoke. By the way, would it be possible for you to
update "committers" module: /board/committie-info.txt
?? (You have a sufficient karma, I am sure)
The same goes for the other Jakarta
(and any other TLPs PMC members!)
PMC members. :-)
i'm not sure that the board will be happy if people go round editing these 
files. i'd say that dropping a note to the pmc list would be the best way 
to get the changes done in the proper way. (i suspect that sam as chair is 
responsible for making these kinds of changes.)

- robert

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Re: Problems with cvs checkout -r TAG

[robert burrell donkin]

hi todd

it's hard to diagnose this kind of thing without more details (it's 
possible that your connection or the server was slow when you tried to 
connect) but here's something you might try: first checkout the module and 
then update to the particular version you require.

- robert

On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 09:09 PM, Todd Carmichael wrote:

Greetings,
Not sure if this is the right place to post a problem/question and would
appreciate being directed to the correct contacts.  I have been trying to
get source code (cvs checkout) for a couple of different projects 
(TOMCAT-4
and jakarta-commons/dbc) using a tag (-r ).  I get a fair amount of the
files and then the process just hangs and I get a connection reset by peer
message.  If I remove the -r TAG from the cvs checkout command, I can then
get all of the source.  Of course, this is not what I want.

Any help would be appreciated.

Todd Carmichael
Concur Technologies
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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

[robert burrell donkin]

hi mark

IMHO there are two different issues here.

1. what's the right thing to do legally...

i don't recall any problems with including BSD licensed source 
(providing that the license is followed which probably means adding the 
appropriate credits) but the right place to ask this question is 
licensing at apache.org. you'll need to subscribe first (probably using 
your apache address).

2. what's the right thing to do ethically...

ethics are important for other reasons. being generous with credit 
often helps to stop flamewars before they start. i'd say that the right 
thing to do ethically is to put a note crediting the original author(s) 
below the the apache license.

it's usually possible to satisfy both 1 and 2 with an appropriate 
choice of words.

- robert

On 7 Nov 2003, at 20:38, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Is there any sort of policy on the inclusion of BSD style licensed 
code into an Apache Project outside of "relicensing".

As well, any standard set of policies/procedures on if that code is 
donated to a project? I understand that there are procedures for 
donation. But have some questions concerning this:

http://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt

Does supplying this document properly completed constitute a 
relicensing of donated code to Apache?

thanks,
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

[robert burrell donkin]

On 9 Nov 2003, at 22:01, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Mostly, I'm trying to ascertain the best strategies for donations that 
will be arising in the near future from projects that are now 
relicensed using a BSD style license (portions of Colt and RngPack). I 
am working through details with these individuals and organizations to 
legally and ethically provide vehicles for the code from these 
projects to evolve and be included into the math project. This is 
currently through both individual interaction with the authors to get 
them to donate and through re-licensing endeavors.

So to try to form a clearer question. If code is licensed using the 
follow style licenses:

http://www.honeylocust.com/RngPack/rngpack/LICENSE
http://dsd.lbl.gov/~hoschek/colt/license.html
With agreement from the authors ,what is the best approach for 
integrating code under this license into an Apache project?
a very good question. now would be a good time for those folks with 
experience of this issue to take up the batten...

I'm slightly stumped, I see no references to a Licensing listserv 
anywhere in the Apache www site?
i suspect that it's a committer-only list. anyone know for sure?

- robert

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[NOTICE] to all jakarta committers

[robert burrell donkin]

will all jakarta committers please ensure that there apache.org email 
account is set up so that it forwards mail to an account that they 
read. this is very easy to configure - just log on to cvs.apache.org 
using ssh and then edit the .forward file. (one way to do this is to 
use vi.

type

> vi .forward

type i then your normal email address next press ESC :x ENTER.)

official mail from the ASF is directed to your apache.org email 
account. you need to be able to read it.

- robert

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Re: [website][patch] Add instructions for setting up mail to newbie.xml

[robert burrell donkin]

(i know that people have different opinions about decanting content 
from jakarta upwards but i'm not sure anyone feels strongly enough to 
force votes but)

when people are moving material from the jakarta site to the main ASF 
site could they please ensure that they include an URL to the newer 
material. i know that this is a PITA but it's important that we both 
retain the integrity of the information in the site and also the 
jakarta site urls (since they are extensively linked from inside and 
outside).

BTW phil as a jakarta committer you're entitled to site karma (if you 
wish).

- robert

On 23 Nov 2003, at 00:01, Phil Steitz wrote:

Martin Cooper wrote:
Isn't this something that should go somewhere off of here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/
rather than under Jakarta?
I thought about adding it here:

http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mail

and removing this section from jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/newbie.xml

Where should I submit the patch for the main site?

Phil





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Re: [website][patch] Add instructions for setting up mail to newbie.xml

[robert burrell donkin]

hi phil

IIRC infrastructure is the right place to submit patches for the main 
site.

- robert

On 23 Nov 2003, at 00:01, Phil Steitz wrote:

Martin Cooper wrote:
Isn't this something that should go somewhere off of here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/
rather than under Jakarta?
I thought about adding it here:

http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mail

and removing this section from jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/newbie.xml

Where should I submit the patch for the main site?

Phil





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[POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

(we've done some talking on the pmc list and turbineers have discussed 
this in the past but since it's not really confidential i'm starting 
this thread to give everyone a chance to participate.)

some information about Turbine-JCS:

* JCS has no release
* other apache products depend on JCS
* JCS is not really directly related to turbine
concerns:

* JCS is a sub-sub-project with it's own mailing list (this kind of 
structure has proved difficult to properly supervise)
* JCS's health
* want to find the 'right' place for JCS

-->8

(comments here, please)

-->8
[ ] leave it within turbine
[ ] move it to apache commons
[ ] move it to jakarta commons
[ ] move it to incubator
[ ] something else (please specify)...

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 30 Nov 2003, at 20:41, robert burrell donkin wrote:

sorry, missed one and probably

[ ] leave JCS within turbine
[ ] JCS to apache commons
[ ] JCS to jakarta commons
[ ] JCS to jakarta top level
[ ] JCS to incubator
[ ] something else (please specify)...
ps

before i get flamed (once again), i'd better add that i think that it'd 
be useful to try to get some consensus about where the right place for 
JCS is and that's why i started this thread. whatever action to be 
taken (if any) will have to be decided on the pmc list.

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Dec 2003, at 05:11, Scott Eade wrote:



Without knowing too much, should perhaps "JCS to db top level" and 
"JCS to db commons" also be considered options?
definitely :)

Of the available options below I have selected jakarta commons more by 
excluding the other options than because of some perceived positive 
fit in jakarta commons (though commons is a good place to be no 
doubt).
no need to pick one of the options listed. it's not a VOTE (the reason 
i listed options was to give a focus). if there are any better options 
out there, let's consider them.

- robert

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Re: jcs

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Dec 2003, at 09:57, Oliver Zeigermann wrote:

I agree to Henri JCS could need more publicity!
luckily enough it's apache newsletter time!

i know from personal experience that writing up something for the 
newsletter really does generate interest. JCS sounds like something 
that people would be interested in - if they knew.

in terms of releases, one approach that has been found to work in the 
jakarta-commons (when faced with similar difficulties) is creating 
less-than-one releases (for example, a 0.1 release).

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Dec 2003, at 12:51, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

[I like "Turbineers". :-) ]
or turbinauts as in 'jason and the turbinauts' ;)

If JCS really catches on, we can still move it back to Jakarta as
"Jakarta JCS".
if JCS really catches on, they might demand a top level ASF project. 
who knows!

- robert

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[POLL] pmc alumni

[robert burrell donkin]

the problem
---
1. it's hard to keep track of which illustrious former pmc member's 
have not been nominated and which no longer feel they are not able to 
serve on the pmc.

proposal

create a new class of jakartaens: pmc alumni consisting of senior 
jakarta figures (typically ex-pmc members) who are worthy of the pmc 
(typically elected at one time or another) but who don't feel that they 
are able to serve. these people would be entitle to remain on the pmc 
list and also have the right to propose themselves (on the list) for 
re-election to the pmc. but they wouldn't be able to cast binding 
votes. in return, the pmc would agree not to bother them with any more 
nominations :)

the pmc alumni names would probably be listed in a new section in the 
whoweare document.

- robert

---
[ ] Cool
{ ] Whatever
[ ] UnCool
[ ] I've Got A Better Idea (Please Tell Everyone About It)
---
Comments And Improvements:
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some reading for those considering their pmc nominations

[robert burrell donkin]

some bedtime reading for those people considering (or soon to be  
considering) whether to accept pmc membership:

http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg? 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msgNo=2642

we really need a much bigger pmc. please say yes :)

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

IMHO the incubator is having some political difficulties at the moment 
and (from my experience of projects being incubated) it doesn't really 
help with gathering more developers.

having read the thread so far, here's my feelings:

1. i feel strongly that JCS should not continue as a turbine 
sub-project.

2. i think that JCS could reasonably aspire to be a sub-project of 
either db or jakarta.

3. i think that the route for JCS to become a jakarta sub-project 
should be through the commons (in order to develop the strength 
required for a separate sub-project).

(i'm a little inclined towards db but) i'd support a proposal from the 
JCS team for a future in either db or jakarta (along the lines outlined 
above). guys - have you come to any opinions about what's the best 
option yet?

- robert

On 4 Dec 2003, at 17:45, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 09:17, Daniel Rall wrote:

Jakarta Commons or the Incubator have been my preference for some 
time now.  The
Incubator seems like a more appropriate place, as JCS could use some 
life
I was thinking about the incubator, too. But as projects failing
to leave the incubator might drop off-ASF completely, we would
put JCS (which is already ASF code) to the risk of being dropped
out of ASF. That's why I suggested jakarta-commons.
(First rule of software acquisition: Once you have the code, never
give it back. ;-) )
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen  INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire
"Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty 
silicon!"
  -- AOL CD when played backwards  (User Friendly - 200-10-15)



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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 4 Dec 2003, at 19:28, Henri Yandell wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, robert burrell donkin wrote:

(i'm a little inclined towards db but) i'd support a proposal from the
JCS team for a future in either db or jakarta (along the lines 
outlined
above). guys - have you come to any opinions about what's the best
option yet?
My only worry with a Commons other than JC is that there's a lot less
chance of community. AC and DC need communities to move to them, 
whereas
JCS needs community and JC is the best place to get such a thing.
i would say that the right place for JCS at db would be as a direct 
sub-project (rather than in db commons).

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 4 Dec 2003, at 08:17, Daniel Rall wrote:

Martin Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
[I like "Turbineers". :-) ]
>
I am one of them, and I did some discussion about JCS @ ApacheCon 
with
Martin Poeschl (who seems to do the odd fix to JCS because he uses 
it in
Torque), another Turbineer. We basically were came to the same
conclusion as robert:

- JCS is cute and should have a larger exposure
- JCS isn't related at all to Turbine. At most it is related to 
Torque
- JCS could be moved to db.apache.org but it is not really database
 specific
- There is (almost) no resistance to move this project out of 
Turbine.

So my vote is
It might be a bit early for a vote, everyone not having the same 
amount of information and all.  But seeing as how you prefixed the 
email POLL, I'm not complaining.  ;)
i suppose i better explain what i mean by a POLL :)

it's a vote but not a VOTE ;)

any final binding VOTE will have to happen on the pmc list (for legal 
reasons) and needs rules and so on. but a vote is very useful way of 
concentrating a discussion and building a consensus. since a POLL is 
informal and unofficial, we don't need to waste time making up rules :) 
so, i thought it's time to revive the [POLL].

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 5 Dec 2003, at 09:10, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 20:43, Daniel Rall wrote:

Given Robert's description of his experience with the Incubator, I'm 
for the
Jakarta Commons to gather some community (direct drop rather than 
sandbox
route), with the goal of an eventual promotion to a full sub-project.
+1 but direct drop only if the move to the commons is accompanied by a
release (1.0 or 0.something, I don't care).
the way that i'd like to see a potential drop working is by folding the 
jcs user and development lists into the commons lists first. this would 
allow the rest of the commons to provide oversight.

next, the JCS team should push towards some kind of release for the 
core engine (even if it's a 0.1 version). once this is ready, we'd 
update the commons website and officially add JCS to the commons. 
hopefully this would provide enough momentum to bootstrap a community 
and to create releases for all the various JCS bits and pieces. once 
the community exists, then JCS could apply for promotion out of the 
commons.

Else it would not be fair to
many other sub-projects currently in the sandbox which have been kept
there because there is no release (commons-configuration e.g.).
(just to set the record straight on commons-configuration) sandbox 
components are not allowed to have releases. one major factor when 
promotion (to the commons proper) is being consider is that a component 
is ready for a release (even if it's a 0.1 one). i now think that every 
component in commons proper needs a proper release of some kind so that 
other projects have the chance to depend on a released version.

i'm not sure why eric hasn't started to push towards promotion for 
commons-configuration but it's possible that there's addition work that 
needs doing before commons-configuration is ready.

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 4 Dec 2003, at 22:35, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:



From a Jakarta PMC perspective, I think that we should cease to support
Sub-sub-projects with the exception of commons.*
i think that it depends on what's meant by sub-sub-projects :)

i'm happy for a single sub-project to create many different products 
(by this i mean stuff it releases). so, component repositories like 
jakarta-commons are fine by me. (some people describe these products as 
sub-sub-projects.)

but i think that each sub-project should only have one list of 
committers (though for reasons of security, if a sub-project has more 
than one repository, karma for a repository may be given out only on 
request) and one development mailing list. so i'd like to prohibit any 
sub-sub-projects like jakarta-turbine-JCS.

- robert

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Re: jakarta-future Was: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 8 Dec 2003, at 11:10, Christopher Lenz wrote:

Am 08.12.2003 um 09:03 schrieb Stefan Bodewig:
Can anybody with a better memory for commons than I have recap why the
httpclient traffic list has been split off?  Did the httpclient
developers want a list of their own or have the developers for the
other commons components been overwhelmed by httpclient traffic?
I think it was a little of both. HttpClient was and continues to be 
rather heavy in traffic for a commons component, so some started to 
complain. The developers were okay with splitting off the mailing 
list, so it happened. I think this was also due to HttpClient being 
backed by a community separate from the rest of the Commons (i.e. none 
of the HttpClient contributors is working on other Commons components, 
IIRC).
IIRC the httpclient committers volunteered after a lot of strong-arming 
from the rest of the commons. IMHO this was a big mistake. it would 
have been much better if httpclient had remained on the same list (for 
as long as it had remained in the commons).

In my opinion, HttpClient would deserve promotion out of Commons by 
now, but that's a different topic altogether :-)
+1 (but AFAIK no one's proposed it)

(i suspect that httpclient would have been promoted already had we not 
made the misguided decision to split off a separate mailing list.)

i've always thought that apache commons would be a perfect fit for 
httpclient...

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

in this case, i'd say we'll need sufficient volunteers from the jakarta 
pmc to ensure oversight during this period. it'd probably be good if 
they were turbineers and if at least one had recent experience of 
release management.

anyone willing to step up?

- robert

On 8 Dec 2003, at 15:28, Aaron Smuts wrote:

Sounds good.  Less disruption on the way to a release would be best.

Aaron

-Original Message-
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:22 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS
IMHO too complex. If there is already a JCS list (is there? As you can
see, I'm a Turbine committer but I have zero overlap with JCS. In fact
I
didn't even know that this is a "turbine sub-sub project" for quite
some
time ;-) ), let's keep it. We want to build community? Let's _not_
fold
it into the commons list where a completely different culture exists
compared to a "normal" project list. I'm pretty sure that this will
scare JCS users away.
I'm thinking that "making it a direct Jakarta sub project" starts to
make more and more sense. I'd propose that we move JCS in this
direction, if the JCS developers push for a 1.0 release inside
turbine-jcs and we make the transition into a Jakarta project with
this
1.0 release (which would IMHO a fine reason to do so).

    Regards
Henning
On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 17:16, robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 5 Dec 2003, at 09:10, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 20:43, Daniel Rall wrote:

Given Robert's description of his experience with the Incubator,
I'm
for the
Jakarta Commons to gather some community (direct drop rather than
sandbox
route), with the goal of an eventual promotion to a full
sub-project.
+1 but direct drop only if the move to the commons is accompanied
by a
release (1.0 or 0.something, I don't care).
the way that i'd like to see a potential drop working is by folding
the
jcs user and development lists into the commons lists first. this
would
allow the rest of the commons to provide oversight.

next, the JCS team should push towards some kind of release for the
core engine (even if it's a 0.1 version). once this is ready, we'd
update the commons website and officially add JCS to the commons.
hopefully this would provide enough momentum to bootstrap a
community
and to create releases for all the various JCS bits and pieces. once
the community exists, then JCS could apply for promotion out of the
commons.
Else it would not be fair to
many other sub-projects currently in the sandbox which have been
kept
there because there is no release (commons-configuration e.g.).
(just to set the record straight on commons-configuration) sandbox
components are not allowed to have releases. one major factor when
promotion (to the commons proper) is being consider is that a
component
is ready for a release (even if it's a 0.1 one). i now think that
every
component in commons proper needs a proper release of some kind so
that
other projects have the chance to depend on a released version.

i'm not sure why eric hasn't started to push towards promotion for
commons-configuration but it's possible that there's addition work
that
needs doing before commons-configuration is ready.

- robert



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--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen  INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire
"Außerdem können in Deutschland alle Englisch. [...] so entfällt die
Notwendigkeit [...] Deutsch zu lernen."
-- Johan Micoud auf die Frage warum er kein Deutsch
spricht.

(http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,273205,00.html)


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Re: jakarta-future Was: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 8 Dec 2003, at 21:07, Costin Manolache wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Costin Manolache wrote:
Or even better - since jakarta has a single PMC, it could also have 
a single
list of committers ( most of them in the single PMC ).

Each PMC member can vote about any jakarta issue - including 
releases of
each sub-project, etc. If the distinction between pmc and committer 
is
fading,  then I don't see why do we have to worry about separate 
karma.

A start could be to have every PMC member have karma in every 
subproject.
+1 to jakarta-wide karma.
It'd be interesting to look at all the mail-traffic for Jakarta and
estimate just how noisy a single project mail list would be. Then 
maybe
instead of breaking it on code-base, we could break it on concept:
jakarta-bugs
jakarta-announce
jakarta-dev
jakarta-pmc
jakarta-ideas
jakarta-site
or something. I'm assuming it'll be too noisy, but it is a logical
question to ask based on Costin's ideas of opening things up.
I don't see the relation between karma and mailing lists.
+1

Jakarta does have 2 "global" lists ( jakarta-general and pmc ), and as 
many sub-project lists are needed. A subproject can create multiple 
lists if needed/wanted, like commons.
i think that multiple lists divide the community and cause problems 
with oversight. my experience with jakarta commons is that a single 
list helps to create a community spirit and multiple lists divide this 
spirit. the avalon community are now strongly against multiple lists 
and turbine has moved this way also. i've read posts from people in 
both community expressing the opinion that multiple lists are 
unhealthy.

Each jakarta committer can be on as many lists as he wants. It would 
be good to keep track of what lists each PMC member is reading 
currently, or to do something similar with commons, where people add 
themself to
a list of "active" people when they are involved with a component. 
This will also answer the question "who is monitoring this".
seems reasonable.

- robert

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Re: jakarta-future Was: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 8 Dec 2003, at 04:20, Phil Steitz wrote:



Then maybe
instead of breaking it on code-base, we could break it on concept:
jakarta-bugs
jakarta-announce
jakarta-dev
jakarta-pmc
jakarta-ideas
jakarta-site
or something. I'm assuming it'll be too noisy, but it is a logical
question to ask based on Costin's ideas of opening things up.
I understand that the oversight role of the PMC has to include all of 
Jakarta and I agree that some form of list aggregation/digesting might 
need to happen to make this practical.  I don't think that combining 
all of the lists is the right way to do it though. This would 
certainly be a pain for users and contributors who may be interested 
in only a small number of projects.  One way to attack the problem 
might be to have PMC members who are committers on the different 
Jakarta projects share the responsibility of maintaining list digests 
for periodic (weekly?) review by the full PMC and/or alerting the full 
PMC of any issues that require immediate attention.

I guess the alternative would be for all of us to subscribe to all of 
the lists and take up speed reading ;-)
i'd suggest that all new pmc members try subscribing to a number of 
jakarta lists that they are not committers for. ideally, subscribe to 
all dev lists and see just how many posts there are even (if you stay 
on them all only for a few days). it gives a good sense of perspective. 
if every new pmc member decided to subscribe to just one or two extra 
lists, then we'd be along way towards solving our current problems with 
demonstrating oversight (by spreading the load more evenly, we'll 
eliminate single points of failure).

i'd be interested to see the current coverage (in terms of pmc members 
subscribed to jakarta dev lists).

Apologies if this is old ground. I am new to the PMC.
it's probably old ground but i'm not sure that we've come up with any 
good solutions yet :)

questions and ideas will therefore be gratefully received :)

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

hi henning

you don't need to be a committer to act as a mentor. from what i've  
heard, i'd say that you'd be an ideal candidate :)

we need more eyes on more lists. what worries folks (including myself)  
is that there aren't really very many pmc eyes on the JCS list. this  
means that there's no one there either to provide oversight and to keep  
them on the straight and narrow - but also there's no one there to  
point them in the right direction when it comes to issues like release  
management and current ASF policies or to help with stuff.

there's also quite a large chance that we'll have to restrict binding  
votes to pmc members only (sad, but true) sometime soonish. in this  
case, JCS will need three pmc members on list to validate votes. i'd  
rather think ahead and have enough pmc people watching the list than  
have JCS stall just as it might be turning round.

i'm willing (as a last resort) to take on this roll (if no one else  
volunteers) but i'm currently averaging 300 emails a day and i'm spread  
very thin now trying to do something similar for the other poorly  
represented jakarta sub-projects. i really want to start coding again  
so i'd really appreciate it if some other people would step up to take  
up this role for JCS.

- robert

On 10 Dec 2003, at 08:51, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

I'd do it, but I'm not personally involved in JCS. IMHO Martin Poeschl
(who is a Turbineer _and_ works with JCS) would be perfect but I know
that he will be on holidays for a longer time (either already is or  
will
be soon. Martin?).

Martin did the Turbine 2.2 release and most of the Torque releases in
the past and I did the 2.3 release of Turbine, so this might count as
"release management experience". ;-)
Regards
Henning
On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 13:13, robert burrell donkin wrote:
in this case, i'd say we'll need sufficient volunteers from the  
jakarta
pmc to ensure oversight during this period. it'd probably be good if
they were turbineers and if at least one had recent experience of
release management.

anyone willing to step up?

- robert

On 8 Dec 2003, at 15:28, Aaron Smuts wrote:

Sounds good.  Less disruption on the way to a release would be best.

Aaron

-Original Message-
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:22 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS
IMHO too complex. If there is already a JCS list (is there? As you  
can
see, I'm a Turbine committer but I have zero overlap with JCS. In  
fact
I
didn't even know that this is a "turbine sub-sub project" for quite
some
time ;-) ), let's keep it. We want to build community? Let's _not_
fold
it into the commons list where a completely different culture exists
compared to a "normal" project list. I'm pretty sure that this will
scare JCS users away.
I'm thinking that "making it a direct Jakarta sub project" starts to
make more and more sense. I'd propose that we move JCS in this
direction, if the JCS developers push for a 1.0 release inside
turbine-jcs and we make the transition into a Jakarta project with
this
1.0 release (which would IMHO a fine reason to do so).

Regards
Henning
On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 17:16, robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 5 Dec 2003, at 09:10, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 20:43, Daniel Rall wrote:

Given Robert's description of his experience with the Incubator,
I'm
for the
Jakarta Commons to gather some community (direct drop rather than
sandbox
route), with the goal of an eventual promotion to a full
sub-project.
+1 but direct drop only if the move to the commons is accompanied
by a
release (1.0 or 0.something, I don't care).
the way that i'd like to see a potential drop working is by folding
the
jcs user and development lists into the commons lists first. this
would
allow the rest of the commons to provide oversight.

next, the JCS team should push towards some kind of release for the
core engine (even if it's a 0.1 version). once this is ready, we'd
update the commons website and officially add JCS to the commons.
hopefully this would provide enough momentum to bootstrap a
community
and to create releases for all the various JCS bits and pieces.  
once
the community exists, then JCS could apply for promotion out of the
commons.

Else it would not be fair to
many other sub-projects currently in the sandbox which have been
kept
there because there is no release (commons-configuration e.g.).
(just to set the record straight on commons-configuration) sandbox
components are not allowed to have releases. one major factor when
promotion (to the commons proper) is being consider is that a
component
is ready for a release (even if it's a 0.1 one). i now think that

Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 12 Dec 2003, at 09:28, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 21:07, robert burrell donkin wrote:
hi henning

you don't need to be a committer to act as a mentor. from what i've
heard, i'd say that you'd be an ideal candidate :)
Hi,

thanks. :-)

I'm willing to subscribe to JCS for watching the developers there and
help them getting out a release. We should try to get genuine interest
from their side to push JCS ahead.
it'll either have to go forward or go back. the pmc can't really allow 
it to drift any more. if there isn't any activity then we'll 
reluctantly have to think about taking action.

Just as you I'm currently spread out between a few hats but I'll try to
squeeze in some time to help here.
great :)

i know that i've been pushing very, very hard recently but i really 
have the new year in my mind as a significant landmark. i'd really like 
to be able to face the new year with the major fundamental issues 
basically fixed. i'm certainly no willing to continue to be this 
stretched for much longer. i'm hoping that the current period is just a 
transitionary phase.

i've been worried about oversight of turbine for some time (and i know 
some other people have as well) but JCS seems like it's the only real 
issue left (providing that turbineers are willing to serve on the pmc). 
if possible i'd like to see if we can't some kind of release (0.9?) out 
very soon and then push for promotion very soon in the new year.

- robert

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[robert burrell donkin]

On 13 Dec 2003, at 22:22, Martin Poeschl wrote:

robert burrell donkin wrote:

On 12 Dec 2003, at 09:28, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 21:07, robert burrell donkin wrote:

hi henning

you don't need to be a committer to act as a mentor. from what i've
heard, i'd say that you'd be an ideal candidate :)


Hi,

thanks. :-)

I'm willing to subscribe to JCS for watching the developers there and
help them getting out a release. We should try to get genuine 
interest
from their side to push JCS ahead.


it'll either have to go forward or go back. the pmc can't really 
allow it to drift any more. if there isn't any activity then we'll 
reluctantly have to think about taking action.
what do you mean?
the code works. it is used by other projects .. and basically 
development slowed down as the developers are waiting for the jcache 
spec ... so i don't think there is any problem as long as there are 
developers maintaining the code
IMHO

1 the pmc is unable to demonstrate oversight.
2 there are a large number of pmc people who believe that umbrella 
sub-projects don't work.

as far as i was concerned the consensus was that whatever the JCS team 
wanted was cool provided that it addressed 1 + 2. promotion to 
sub-project status satisfies 2 and having henning and other turbineers 
volunteer to provide oversight satisfies 1.

- robert

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Re: possible online documentation error in org.apache.commons.collections.functors Class OrPredicate page

[robert burrell donkin]

On 13 Feb 2004, at 06:05, RK wrote:

Iam new in writing apache modules, can anybody tell me where can i get 
the
documentation regarding development of Apache modules in C++
this list is general at the jakarta project (within apache). you're 
asking for information about the httpd project. for help with apache 
httpd, please ask there in the future.

the documentation for apache httpd versions 1 and 2 is linked from:

http://httpd.apache.org/

- robert

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[website][PROPOSAL] (small) reorganization of news

[robert burrell donkin]

i've now discovered that news from jakarta is being disseminated to a 
wider audience. this is a good thing but a bit unexpected (at least to 
me). this raises the issue that we do not - at the moment - have 
permanent urls for our news stories. they go into news.xml which is 
then archived. this means that any people who link to our stories will 
find that the urls will be broken when the news is archived.

i think that it'd be a good idea to convert the news.xml page into an 
contents page for all our news (including the newsletters). existing 
news from 2004 would go into a new news-2004JanFebMarApr.xml file to 
which future news would be added.

it might be a good idea to move all news into the news subfolder (and 
redirect urls to there) but i'd like opinions to hear on this change.

i'll give anyone who's interested in commenting till monday to post 
ideas to improve this plan or - indeed - to blow this plan out of the 
water.

- robert

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Re: chairmen..

[robert burrell donkin]

On 24 Feb 2004, at 16:06, Tom Copeland wrote:

On Mon, 2004-02-23 at 17:28, Danny Angus wrote:
If its not too patronising of me I'd like to propose vote of thanks 
to Sam as outgoing chair,
+n, where n >= 1
+n!

(that's a factorial sign rather than an exclamation mark ;)

- robert

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news reorganization

[robert burrell donkin]

i've just committed the reorganization i proposed last week. i've moved 
all the news documents into the news subdirectory and all now have 
date-related names (so no renaming should be necessary and therefore 
the urls will be permanent). the html versions of the old pages now 
redirect to the new ones. i'm considering adding some other redirects 
into the .htaccess file.

- robert

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Re: news reorganization

[robert burrell donkin]

On 25 Feb 2004, at 13:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Feb 24, 2004, at 5:08 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

i've just committed the reorganization i proposed last week. i've 
moved all the news documents into the news subdirectory and all now 
have date-related names (so no renaming should be necessary and 
therefore the urls will be permanent). the html versions of the old 
pages now redirect to the new ones. i'm considering adding some other 
redirects into the .htaccess file.
That's great.  Any support for moving the link to Martin's page up, 
have a separate section above news "In memoriam" or like?
that sounds a good idea (but i'd prefer to wait until the end of this 
month).

- robert

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Re: news symlinks

[robert burrell donkin]

On 26 Feb 2004, at 19:42, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

probably getting apache to do temporary redirects from those urls
You do know that /www/jakarta.apache.org/.htaccess is in CVS, right?
i do now :)

thanks

- robert

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Re: Apache Gump and Apache Portals

[robert burrell donkin]

do the gump team plan to continue to use the jakarta announcement 
mailing list or will they be creating a new list?

- robert

On 26 Feb 2004, at 22:30, Adam R. B. Jack wrote:

Tetsuya Kitahata" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  - The Apache Gump Project will now oversee the development and
maintenance of the Apache Jakarta Gump project. Stefan Bodewig is
the
new Chair of this PMC.
[...]

Just a note. Cheerio,
Not sure if this was meant to be 'cheerio' to the projects, or just at 
end
of the mail, but Gump is hoping not to say goodbye to this community.
Basically Gump wants (needs) an identity and community that is a 
superset of
Jakarta. Further, Gump is forging it's future (as an Java project
integrator) in Python, which contradicts line one of
http://jakarta.apache.org/.

These were what prompted the move, but Gump will still allow all 
Jakarta
committers to be Gump committers.

Further (and this ought be worded as a personal goal) I'd like to see 
all
Jakarta sub-projects within Gump's public workspaces & nightly 
integrations.
[Not quite sure how I measure/ensure such coverage, but that is a 
separate
matter for another day.]

What brought me to Gump was being a satisfied user of much of the 
impressive
software within Jakarta. I hope that Gump can continue serve this 
community,
so this community can continue to deliver a robust stack of highly
interoperable solutions (with minimal jar-hell discontinuities).

regards,

Adam

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Re: news symlinks

[robert burrell donkin]

we'd then risk people losing long term urls. probably getting apache to 
do temporary redirects from those urls would be ok, though. of course, 
i'd be interested to know what other people think on this before 
actually doing anything about it...

- robert

On 26 Feb 2004, at 12:56, Marcus Sundman wrote:

Hi,

Would it be possible to have symlinks like
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/news-latest.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/elsewhere-latest.html
that would point to the latest news?
So
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/news-latest.html
would currently point to
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/news-2004-1stHalf.html
and
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/elsewhere-latest.html
would currently point to
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/elsewhere-2004-1stHalf.html
- Marcus Sundman

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Re: news symlinks

[robert burrell donkin]

On 27 Feb 2004, at 12:19, Marcus Sundman wrote:

Would it be possible to have symlinks like
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/news-latest.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/elsewhere-latest.html
that would point to the latest news?
we'd then risk people losing long term urls. probably getting apache 
to
do temporary redirects from those urls would be ok, though. of course,
i'd be interested to know what other people think on this before
actually doing anything about it...
Well, now one can't bookmark the news pages because the URLs change 
every once
in a while, so something should be done.
they only twice change twice a year but you're probably right about the 
principle. it'd never occurred to me (or - it seems - to the other 
folks who replied to the proposal thread) that people would want to 
bookmark the news page (rather than the index).

i found out recently that some people subscribe to the commit list for 
the site so they can keep up to date with the jakarta news. so maybe 
it's more popular (and therefore important) than we released.

i'd love to have an RSS news feed for jakarta. (this is yet another 
idea going on the growing list of 
really-cool–things-to-do-using–james-once-i-find-time.) anyone fancy 
volunteering to take this further?

Neither symlinks nor temporary redirects are very good solutions. I 
think
people most often want to see the latest news, e.g. a list of all news 
items
less than N days old. If all news are on pages categorized e.g. by 
month then
N will keep changing all the time (N=0 exactly when the month 
changes). Thus
almost no one would see news posted in the very end of the month.

I think the best solution would be to have one page with news 
then have a completely separate news archive where news are 
categorized by
month/year/whatever. The former could have news from both Jakarta and
elsewhere on the same page, preventing people from having to check two 
URLs
when reading news. The latter could have different categories for 
Jakarta
news and other news.
that's probably true but it would require active maintenance to keep it 
up to date. so, probably some sort of consensus would be needed amongst 
those who'll be doing this extra work before going ahead.

maybe it'd be cool to have a complete latest-first index of all news 
stories in the news index page. that way, not only would it be a useful 
resource but also it'd be a fixed page for people to book mark.

opinions?

- robert

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Re: Apache Gump and Apache Portals

[robert burrell donkin]

On 27 Feb 2004, at 07:49, Stefan Bodewig wrote:

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, robert burrell donkin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
do the gump team plan to continue to use the jakarta announcement
mailing list or will they be creating a new list?
We'll have a [EMAIL PROTECTED] that takes over for
[EMAIL PROTECTED], at least this is the plan.
I don't think Gump has ever used the announce list at all and right
now we haven't asked for any announce list specific to Gump either.
well then, i'd say that announcing gump's graduation would be a good 
first announcement for project gump to send ;)

- robert

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questions license for site documents

[robert burrell donkin]

the generated html does not contain an explicit license just a 
copyright. am i right in thinking that now it would be better to 
publish them under the apache license 2?

also, am i right in thinking that all the source documentation should 
have license notices added?

- robert

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licensing javadocs...?

[robert burrell donkin]

it seems to me that the javadocs are distributed just like everything 
else in the release. so, it seems to me that we need to alter our 
builds so that the apache license 2 is included. we could do this by 
setting the license as a header or footer (or something) in the javadoc 
build.

anyone have any opinions about the best practice for this?

- robert

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Re: news symlinks

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Mar 2004, at 12:15, Marcus Sundman wrote:

I think the best solution would be to have one page with news 
old, and
then have a completely separate news archive where news are
categorized by
month/year/whatever. The former could have news from both Jakarta and
elsewhere on the same page, preventing people from having to check 
two
URLs
when reading news. The latter could have different categories for
Jakarta
news and other news.
that's probably true but it would require active maintenance to keep 
it
up to date. so, probably some sort of consensus would be needed 
amongst
those who'll be doing this extra work before going ahead.
Huh? Surely the news items are entries in a database of some sort, or 
are you
implying that someone actually modifies html files directly?!
the web site is almost all static. jakarta (and most of the apache 
stuff) is generated using anakia from xml source by volunteers on their 
own machines and then committed into CVS.

a major reason for this is that (until recently) the apache website ran 
on a very low specification machine (infrastructure's httpd gurus could 
even make a pig fly ;). we now have a better web server but running a 
lot of dynamic content on it would probably be problematic. IIRC there 
was talk (in infrastructure) about being able to loan some better 
machines from sponsors on which jakarta (and the other ASF projects) 
could run dynamic content but i'm no longer in the infrastructure loop 
so now would be good time for better informed people to jump in...

maybe it'd be cool to have a complete latest-first index of all news
stories in the news index page. that way, not only would it be a 
useful
resource but also it'd be a fixed page for people to book mark.
Yes.
(Well, it would be "cool" in the sense that it is "cool" that you can 
edit
text in a text editor.)
cool in the sense of 
a-useful-resource-that-jakartaens-might-feel-motivated-to-maintain. 
anyone else have any opinions on this?

- robert

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Re: questions license for site documents

[robert burrell donkin]

i've had a quick google and i'm not sure that there's a consensus out 
there on this. i like the idea of modifying the .vsl file and i'd be 
inclined to add both formulations. maybe this would be a good question 
to raise on community...

- robert

On 1 Mar 2004, at 17:25, Christopher Lenz wrote:

Am 01.03.2004 um 12:53 schrieb Tetsuya Kitahata:
Use  tag.
(e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/LICENSE"/>)
Perhaps this can be easily done by editing /xdocs/stylesheets/site.vsl

What would you say?
If anything, that should be:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/LICENSE";>

(See http://tantek.com/log/2004/02.html#d25t1805)

Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher Lenz
/=/ cmlenz at gmx.de
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Re: questions license for site documents

[robert burrell donkin]

On 2 Mar 2004, at 02:06, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

Quoting Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:24:02 +
robert burrell donkin wrote:
i've had a quick google and i'm not sure that there's a consensus out
there on this. i like the idea of modifying the .vsl file and i'd be
inclined to add both formulations. maybe this would be a good 
question
to raise on community...
Go ahead. I suspect it that we should modify site.vsl
in either case. :-)
If we decide to modify all the xml files in /xdocs/,
appending http://jakarta.apache.org/LICENSE"/>
line would be more practical ... under /document/properties/ element.
(generated htmls should have  tag,  tag or something 
equivalent)

The instructions at the very end of
<http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html>
describe *exactly* what to do to documentation files, and adding a 
link in the
manner you described is the wrong answer.

Instead, you should enclose the same boilerplate text at the top of 
each such
document that is included at the top of Java sources, enclosed in the
appropriate comment characters for your format (i.e. for XML, surround 
by
"", for properties files, prefix by "#", and so on).
the documentation source files are pretty clear. IMHO the generated 
stuff is best done by altering the .vsl template. (i tried tricks with 
the source to get the license into the generated document but anakia 
dies.)

the .vsl template should definitely be altered to include the 
boilerplate (as a comment) but i think that it'd be good to think about 
including a meta and/or link tags as well.

- robert

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Re: questions license for site documents

[robert burrell donkin]

On 2 Mar 2004, at 20:21, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:08:42 +
robert burrell donkin wrote:
the .vsl template should definitely be altered to include the
boilerplate (as a comment) but i think that it'd be good to think 
about
including a meta and/or link tags as well.
I performed a slight change into .vsl and committed a little
while ago. ( style)
"site" module (for www.apache.org) as well.
missed that change 8-)

looks to me like that the jakarta website is now AL2 compliant :)

thanks for the hard work tetsuya.

- robert

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Re: news reorganization

[robert burrell donkin]

On 25 Feb 2004, at 13:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Feb 24, 2004, at 5:08 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

i've just committed the reorganization i proposed last week. i've 
moved all the news documents into the news subdirectory and all now 
have date-related names (so no renaming should be necessary and 
therefore the urls will be permanent). the html versions of the old 
pages now redirect to the new ones. i'm considering adding some other 
redirects into the .htaccess file.
That's great.  Any support for moving the link to Martin's page up, 
have a separate section above news "In memoriam" or like?
done.

- robert

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Re: questions license for site documents

[robert burrell donkin]

On 3 Mar 2004, at 22:28, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

Quoting Christopher Lenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

You're not saying that the boilerplate text should appear as comment 
in
every generated HTML document, are you?
Yes, I am.  For the same reason that it's in every Java file.
+1

(it probably needs to be added to every generated javadoc as well.)

i still quite like the idea of adding link and meta tags referring to 
the license (in addition to the boilerplate comment).

- robert

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Re: news symlinks

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Mar 2004, at 12:15, Marcus Sundman wrote:



maybe it'd be cool to have a complete latest-first index of all news
stories in the news index page. that way, not only would it be a 
useful
resource but also it'd be a fixed page for people to book mark.
Yes.
(Well, it would be "cool" in the sense that it is "cool" that you can 
edit
text in a text editor.)
i've added a complete index of all the news headlines to the news 
status page (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html) together 
with some other organizational improvements. i think that it's 
interesting to see all the headlines together in one place. (and yes, i 
think that it's cool but then again, i'm easily amused :)

those folks who've asked for a news page to bookmark should bookmark 
this one.

- robert

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[site] Translated (Web) -> Unofficial Resources...?

[robert burrell donkin]

at the moment, we have a section on the jakarta navigation bar that's 
titled 'Translated (Web)'. i've been wondering whether it might be 
better to rename this to something like 'Community Resources 
(Unofficial)'. this would make it clear that (though we're very 
grateful for these sites), they are not officially endorsed 
translations.

later, we might think about adding other unofficial resources (such as 
planetapache) to the menu.

- robert

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Re: [site] Sister Resources

[robert burrell donkin]

On 11 Mar 2004, at 12:47, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:32:31 +0100
Stefan Bodewig wrote:


Depends on what you consider a sister resource.
At least, I guess robert is considering planetapache
would be one of them :)
-- external resources to apache.org domain
This is to broad to me for a general "I'll add some unless anybody
objects".  I'd like to know which you'll add unless anybody objects.
my original suggestion for something like 'Resources (Unofficial)'. i 
have a great deal of respect for the people running the translation 
websites but (after following numerous debates on matters related to 
official translations) i think that it's important to indicate that the 
translated sites are not officially approved by the ASF. planetapache 
is very cool and it's a shame that it's not linked anywhere from the 
jakarta home page. i was pondering about adding a link below the 
translations (but in the same section).

in some ways, though, it's really bigger than that: it's also about one 
road that the ASF seems to be starting to traveling down. it seems to 
me that we're starting to reach out to a larger but more diffuse 
community. at the same time, the organization is becoming more 
centralized and policy driven. it seems to me that these conflicting 
ideas are likely to be reflected in the ASF websites. the scope of 
websites hosted by the ASF will probably need to be more tightly 
policed with some content moving away to related resources. users will 
need to be able to find these related resources which will be hosted 
offshore (rather than by the ASF).

i know that some people will say: 'why not just let people google?'. 
for me, the problem is that google isn't quite what it used to be (or 
at least, that's the way it seems to me). it's no good expecting users 
to know about a useful site which isn't linked and is google ranked 
below fifty.

i don't know if people have been following the debates on licensing but 
it seems to me likely that jakarta may need to think about providing 
links to downstream packagers (to allow users to obtain full, 
ready-to-run distributions) sooner or later. offshore pages may also be 
a better solution to problems like the vendor's page. (struts has gone 
down this route.)

but that's all for the future. at the present, i just wanted to think 
about renaming translations and to think about adding planetapache :)

no ulterior motives, i promise :)

- robert

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Re: [site] Sister Resources

[robert burrell donkin]

On 19 Mar 2004, at 08:50, Stefan Bodewig wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, robert burrell donkin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 11 Mar 2004, at 12:47, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:32:31 +0100
Stefan Bodewig wrote:


Depends on what you consider a sister resource.
At least, I guess robert is considering planetapache
would be one of them :)
-- external resources to apache.org domain
This is to broad to me for a general "I'll add some unless anybody
objects".  I'd like to know which you'll add unless anybody
objects.
my original suggestion for something like 'Resources
(Unofficial)'.
How about "External Resources" then?  "Sister" implies more
endorsement than is needed IMHO.
the argument was that it's good to be consistent with www.apache.org 
(which uses this particular term). after reflection, i'm still inclined 
towards "Resources (Unofficial)" (being both concise and accurate) or 
"External Resources" (i like it less than the first for aesthetic 
reasons) and away from "Sister Resources" but my feeling aren't too 
strong...

anyone else have preferences they'd like to express?



users will need to be able to find these related resources which
will be hosted offshore (rather than by the ASF).
I think the jpackage project may be one of the related projects, then.
They provide RPMs for quite a few Java Apache projects.
i'd definitely agree.

after brian's comments about the great strides made by the freeBSD 
ports of ASF product coded in java, i'd also like to think about adding 
a freeBSD related link.

but, now (before we start adding links) is probably a good time to 
gauge community feelings about suitability. if anyone has any opinions 
on this, then this would be a really good time to speak up :)

- robert

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Re: Struts mailing lists

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Apr 2004, at 21:44, Shapira, Yoav wrote:
Hi,

I assume the website is about to be updated with this information? I 
tried
to email [EMAIL PROTECTED], but typically, heh, the 
recipients
mail server was down or unreachable ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
Send a note to the struts-dev list, they're responsible for updating
their own website.  Don't rely on the webmaster@ address ;)
AIUI support of the webmaster address was made a near impossibility by 
the last round of worms. this is the right place to ask questions (and 
maybe we should correct the documents).

- robert

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[site] thinking about adding a couple of links from resources

[robert burrell donkin]

in the light of the recent debate over on licensing about the inability 
for java folks to take their jakarta fix in the usual packaged/ported 
*nix fashion, i thought i might add links to a couple of well-known 
downstream distributors of packages and ports to the resources 
(unofficial) section:

http://www.jpackage.org/
http://www.freebsd.org/ports/java.html
comments anyone?

- robert

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Re: [site] thinking about adding a couple of links from resources

[robert burrell donkin]

hi martin

i'll do my best to present what (seems to me) a complex issue and 
currently unresolved by the board.

the question is whether:

1 apache distributions must contain only artifacts licensed under the 
ASF 2.0 (unless an exception is granted by the board)

or:

2 whether they may contain ASF compatible binaries that have their own 
licenses.

several senior ASF figures were of the opinion that 1 is acceptable 
since tarballed ready-to-run releases could be provided by downstream 
distributors, packagers and porters and that there is no reason why 
java should be treated differently. the problems that this approach 
would cause for java applications were pointed out and (i think) 
everyone learnt something. brian promised to go away and think about 
all the issues.

anyway, one thing which became clear to me is that jakarta could do a 
lot more to promote the acceptance of ASF java applications in 
mainstream packagers and ports. i think that part of this is to let 
users know that there are other options available (as well as the 
standard ready-to-run tarballs). that's why i proposed these links.

- robert

On 7 Apr 2004, at 04:34, Martin Cooper wrote:



-Original Message-----
From: robert burrell donkin
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:03 PM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: [site] thinking about adding a couple of links from resources
in the light of the recent debate over on licensing about the 
inability
for java folks to take their jakarta fix in the usual packaged/ported
*nix fashion
For the benefit of those of us not on licensing@, could you, or someone
else, summarise that debate briefly, please? That list doesn't appear 
to be
in public archives. (I'm on license@, which is publicly archived - I 
didn't
realise there were two separate lists.)

TIA.

--
Martin Cooper

, i thought i might add links to a couple of well-known
downstream distributors of packages and ports to the resources
(unofficial) section:
http://www.jpackage.org/
http://www.freebsd.org/ports/java.html
comments anyone?

- robert

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Re: Maven Repository Status

[robert burrell donkin]

hi howard

(i'm assuming that this is about getting new jars into the java 
repository so they can be accessed b maven.)

AIUI the process is still being developed so documentation is patchy at 
best. i'd suggest subscribing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and asking what 
to do there.

- robert

On 24 Apr 2004, at 04:01, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:

I've been asked to mirror the Tapestry and HiveMind libraries, but 
haven't been able to find docs on
the web about how to do so.

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
Creator, HiveMind
http://howardlewisship.com

-Original Message-
From: Mark R. Diggory [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:38 AM
To: Avalon Developers List; Jakarta Commons Developers List;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Maven Repository Status
I just wanted to drop everyone a note to let you know that I made the
rsync of the java-repository between Apache and Ibiblio much
more stable
this week. It now occurs every 4 hours (EST 12am, 4am, 8am
...). If you
ever encounter issues with your jars not getting synced into ibiblio,
please contact me.
-Mark

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[PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

BACKGROUND
--
the common release download pages for jakarta products currently list 
as many of these as possible. by it's nature, the number of 
jakarta-commons components has risen over time and will most likely 
continue to rise in the future. at the moment, the download pages are 
hard to use and this will get worse over time as more jakarta commons 
components are added.

PROPOSAL

i'd like to shift all jakarta commons component downloads onto separate 
pages which are linked from the main ones. i think that this will 
prolong the useful life of the original page without really effecting 
it's utility.

here my +1
- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

On 20 Jun 2004, at 22:45, Henri Yandell wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
PROPOSAL

i'd like to shift all jakarta commons component downloads onto 
separate
pages which are linked from the main ones. i think that this will
prolong the useful life of the original page without really effecting
it's utility.
+1
+1.
I'd had some complaints from users about the difficulty of downloading
(too many click's). I like the dynamic closer.cgi page that the maven
download is using. We should just have a single download page with all 
the
commons components on, and it should not mention mirrors at all.

All links for downloads should then be aimed at the cgi, which will 
have
all the mirror info for each file.
the main reason for the difficult of downloading was as an attempt to 
educate users about the importance of verifying the release. apache can 
make no promises as to the security of any mirror. it's therefore vital 
that the md5 sum is checked after the software has been downloaded.

it's only a matter of time before a trojaned zip is uploaded to some 
ASF mirror. then those windoz users who happily double click without 
checking will have real problems. not me (of course) 'cos i don't have 
any windoz but i still feel that we should make an effort to those 
which are so afflicted not least ;)

i've always been unhappy with that dynamic page since it doesn't 
emphasis the importance of checking the MD5 sum nor does it make it 
easy to find where the sum is. i much prefer the avalon-style one. 
having said that, providing that users are clearly told that they need 
to check the md5 sum and the sum is easily available, then i wouldn't 
object to improvements along the line you suggest.

- robert
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Re: Apache Tomcat 5.0.x

[robert burrell donkin]

On 22 Jun 2004, at 08:51, Emulsify Adren wrote:
Hi,
 i'm interested to know whether i need to pay to run Apache Tomcat 
5.0.x and where can i get a copy of it. hope to hear from you soon. 
thanks in advance.
apache tomcat (together with all the other ASF - http://www.apache.org 
- releases) is open source (http://www.opensource.org/). all is 
explained on our website (http://jakarta.apache.org/). please send some 
time reading it.

- robert
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Re: jk2 changes

[robert burrell donkin]

hi andy
i think that jk2 is developed by the tomcat community. you'll probably 
get a better answer faster by asking on one of the tomcat lists. read 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html for more information.

- robert
On 22 Jun 2004, at 11:35, Andy Armstrong wrote:
I'm just making sure the Lotus Domino connector works with the latest 
jk2 version. As a preamble to that I usually make sure I can get 
mod_jk2 working with Apache 2 as a kind of baseline. This time I'm 
getting stuck. Is there an incompatibility between a mod_jk2 built 
from the current CVS and the 5.0.27 binary build at 
jakarta.apache.org?

I get encouraging looking debug from it but requests that should be 
mapped using [uri:] in workers2.properties don't seem to get outside 
of Apache (which 404s). Requests using  in httpd.conf 
result in a 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable and the following in 
the Apache error log:

[error] lb_worker.service() all workers in error or disabled state
[error] mod_jk2.handler() Error connecting to tomcat 12, status 503
My httpd.conf looks like this
LoadModule jk2_module modules/mod_jk2.so
JkSet config.file conf/workers2.properties

JkUriSet group lb:lb

and workers2.properties is like this
[logger]
level=DEBUG
[lb:lb]
debug=10
[channel.socket:localhost:8009]
debug=10
tomcatId=localhost:8009
[uri:/servlets-examples/*]
debug=10
[uri:/jsp-examples/*]
debug=10
Other info:
Apache/2.0.49 (Unix) mod_jk2/2.0.5-dev
Linux 2.4.22-1.2188.nptlsmp #1 SMP (Fedora Core #1)
Tomcat 5.0.27 binary from jakarta.apache.org
--
Andy Armstrong

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Fwd: Call for Participation for ApacheCon US 2004

[robert burrell donkin]

Begin forwarded message:
From: Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 24 June 2004 13:48:10 BST
To: Apache Committers Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ApacheCon 
discussions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ApacheCon announcements 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Apache httpd users list 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Call for Participation for ApacheCon US 2004
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Call for Participation: ApacheCon US 2004
=
November 14-17, 2004, Las Vegas, Nevada, US
[Please feel free to forward this notice far and wide!]
SUBMISSION DEADLINE: Friday, 23 July 2004, 23:59 EDT
*** NOTICE THE TIME: MIDNIGHT FRIDAY NIGHT, U.S. EASTERN TIME! ***
Come share your knowledge of Apache software at this
educational and fun-filled gathering of Apache users,
vendors, and friends.
Apache Software Foundation members are designing the
technical program for ApacheCon US 2004 that will include
over 40 sessions planned.
We are particularly interested in session proposals
covering:
o Apache Web server topics (installation, compilation,
  configuration, migration, ...)
o All Apache Software Foundation projects (Jakarta,
  mod_perl, Xerces, et cetera)
o scripting languages and dynamic content
  (Java, PHP, Perl, TCL, Python, XML, XSL, etc.)
o Security and eCommerce
o Performance tuning, load balancing, high availability
o tips for writing Apache Web server modules
o Technical and non-technical case studies
o new Web-related technologies
Only educational sessions related to projects of the Apache
Software Foundation or the Web in general will be considered
(commercial sales or marketing presentation won't be accepted;
please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you're interested in
giving a vendor presentation).
If you would like to be a speaker at the ApacheCon US 2004
event, please go to the ApacheCon Web site, log in, and choose
the 'Submit a CFP' option from the list there:
 http://ApacheCon.Com/html/login.html
NOTE: If you were a speaker or delegate at a past ApacheCon,
please log in using the email address you used before; this
will remember your information and pre-load the CFP form for
you.  If this is your first time being involved with ApacheCon,
please create a new account.
ALL SESSIONS WILL BE 50 MINUTES LONG!  If you wish to
propose a session that will take two consecutive slots,
please mention that in the comments section of the CFP
form.
USE THE SAME FORM to submit a proposal for a half- or full-day
tutorial.
EXPENSES AND FEES are expected to be covered at approximately
the same rate as for ApacheCon 2003 US; watch the ApacheCon
site and the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailing lists for news about the final details.
- --
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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[site] .htaccess file has been modified outside cvs

[robert burrell donkin]

the .htaccess file for the jakarta site has been modified directly but 
is maintained in CVS. unless anyone knows a good reason not to, i'll 
update the copy in CVS with the changes.

- robert
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Re: [site] .htaccess file has been modified outside cvs

[robert burrell donkin]

they look right to me. someone's added a redirect for pluto to portals 
TLP:

Redirect Permanent /pluto http://portals.apache.org/pluto
so i've committed them into CVS and replaced the local copy.
- robert
On 27 Jun 2004, at 17:18, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
the .htaccess file for the jakarta site has been modified directly but
is maintained in CVS. unless anyone knows a good reason not to, i'll
update the copy in CVS with the changes.
If the changes look right, please do.  Not everyone who can make 
changes
knows that they are supposed to effect the changes via CVS.

--- Noel
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Re: Wiki, newsletters, PMC-chair

[robert burrell donkin]

On 27 Jun 2004, at 21:35, Henri Yandell wrote:
As the wiki-update emails don't seem to get through to this list, 
thought
I'd let people know I've done a bit of reorganization of the Jakarta 
Wiki
page:

http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/
I've also added a bunch of ideas and thoughts.
IMHO this is something that really needs addressing ASAP. other TLPs 
have had problems with wiki vandalism and we're not going to pick this 
up.

By the way, in case it's Monday morning and everything is a haze, I 
should
mention that the board have accepted the PMC's recommendation of 
myself as
PMC chair to replace Geir.
i'm not sure whether to say 'congratulations', 'good luck' or 'better 
you than me' ;)

so i'll say all three: congratulations, good luck and better you than 
me :)

in terms of subversion, i've been planning on volunteering ECS for a 
move to subversion for a while now but had planned to wait until after 
the four releases i'm currently preparing have shipped. on the other 
hand. ECS would probably be a good test for migration and there's 
nothing to stop other folks stepping up to carry out the actual 
conversion...

- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

look like we've missed the chance for this :(
this change needed infrastructure to update a list of paths to make the 
cgi script work with the new url. unfortunately, it took a few days to 
get this processed. in the mean time, commons collections was released.

it's a bit of a pity since i've spent this evening working on new 
download pages but i'm rolling back these changes and asking 
infrastructure to remove the url from the list. we'll probably need 
more coordination (and probably a pmc sanctioned release freeze) to 
make changes to the download pages. so, since henri has plans for a 
rethink, we might as well wait and move to the new system directly.

oh well: win some, lose some. that's just the way it is...
- robert
On 20 Jun 2004, at 22:45, Henri Yandell wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
PROPOSAL

i'd like to shift all jakarta commons component downloads onto 
separate
pages which are linked from the main ones. i think that this will
prolong the useful life of the original page without really effecting
it's utility.
+1
+1.
I'd had some complaints from users about the difficulty of downloading
(too many click's). I like the dynamic closer.cgi page that the maven
download is using. We should just have a single download page with all 
the
commons components on, and it should not mention mirrors at all.

All links for downloads should then be aimed at the cgi, which will 
have
all the mirror info for each file.

Hen
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

On 30 Jun 2004, at 23:12, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Sorry if I messed this up for you.
we'll put this one down to bad luck.
if infrastructure hadn't been so busy, i hadn't chosen an unusual page 
name (causing infrastructure to query the request) and my internet 
hadn't fallen down all evening on tuesday then this wouldn't have 
arisen. i was just a little frustrated, that's all.

FYI, collections is using the subpage named anchor tags to get the 
user to
the right part of the page.
yep but i was moving all the commons stuff onto another page.
- robert
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[site] it's now july so please add news to 2004 2nd half pages

[robert burrell donkin]

it's now july and so i've added pages for the second half of the year. 
please add new news to these pages.

- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

On 1 Jul 2004, at 21:54, Henri Yandell wrote:
Have you already posted a version of your new page somewhere so we can
look/complain?
this was mainly a structure change rather than look and feel.
What's your next window for attempting it, and how long would you need 
to
freeze releases for (ie) rought estimate of how long infrastructure + 
you
will need)?
there's going to be a stream of commons releases coming up over the 
next few months. my main concern is that the download urls given on the 
announcements (and widely disseminated) will stop matching as soon as 
the release are moved to new pages. it's probably not worth pursuing 
this in the immediate future. this problem may have resolved itself by 
then (since TLPs should be hosting their own release download pages).

there are some changes which i'd like to see introduced which can be 
done without moving the commons releases away. i think now that users 
should be used to the mirrors by now so maybe we could alter the page 
to make things a little more user friendly. i'm inclined now to include 
the MD5 sums on the page (rather than linked) and add an index.

- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

On 2 Jul 2004, at 08:04, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, robert burrell donkin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
this change needed infrastructure to update a list of paths to make
the cgi script work with the new url.
This is not strictly true.  Anybody with commit access to the site
module could do that, this includes far more people than
infrastructure (all ASF members, for example).
i'm a little out of the infrastructure loop now. (i had thought that 
infrastructure were now responsible for maintaining the foundation 
website and so requests had to go through them.) we really need to 
invest in some documentation so that people (myself included) don't 
create more work for infrastructure than is strictly necessary.

i'm thinking of moving the infrastructure material on the old wiki over 
to wiki.apache.org/general so maybe i could add some information there. 
does this sounds like a good plan?

Sorry, I never saw any request to change the configuration file or I
would have done it ASAP.
i'm trying not to blame anyone for this. the infrastructure team do an 
amazing job given the limited resources. i was a little frustrated by 
things such as trains, internet access falling down and having to work 
late (fixing problems created by others) so my apologies for being a 
little brusque. let's putting this one down to a conspiracy of events.

- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL][site] create separate page for commons downloads

[robert burrell donkin]

On 5 Jul 2004, at 08:42, Stefan Bodewig wrote:

Joshua committed the changes needed for the jakarta-commons download
page last Tuesday.  Is there anything left that needs to be done for
this case?
it might as well be rolled back (i've rolled back the changes i made to 
the jakarta site). there are simply too many commons release coming up 
over the next few weeks and months to be able to change the url. the 
change would have patched things up for a little while longer but maybe 
it's as well that things will come to a head (since that's usually the 
best way to persuade people that change is necessary).

- robert
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