[gentoo-dev] retiring

2015-01-28 Thread Chris Brannon
Hi all,

I've been here for a couple years now, and I've lost interest to the
point that I'm not doing a very good job of keeping my own system up to
date, much less maintaining ebuilds.  That isn't fair to anyone at all.
It's time for me to move on.
Gentoo is a great distro.  I've met plenty of awesome, smart people
around here, and I've learned a lot from my Gentoo experience.
Thanks, and so long.
Best wishes to the Gentoo community for 2015 and beyond.

-- Chris



[gentoo-dev] Retiring

2010-06-07 Thread Maurice van der Pot
Hi guys,

Since I have not been active for a long time and I have no motivation at
the moment to spend more time on Gentoo, I'll be retiring as a Gentoo
dev. This is just for personal reasons; it's not because of Gentoo.

There are only a few packages I was maintaining, so if anyone would like
to take over maintenance feel free to change the metadata.

The packages are:
  dev-util/valgrind
  net-im/pyaim-t
  net-im/pyicq-t
  net-im/pymsn-t
  net-mail/tpop3d
  net-proxy/http-replicator

Regards,
Maurice.

-- 
Maurice van der Pot

Gentoo Linux Developer   griffo...@gentoo.orghttp://www.gentoo.org
Gnome Planner Developer  griffo...@kfk4ever.com  http://live.gnome.org/Planner



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Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

2009-05-10 Thread Thilo Bangert
Olivier Huber oli.hu...@gmail.com said:
 Hi,

 2009/5/4 Thomas Sachau to...@gentoo.org

 [snip]
  For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
  ebuilds, there is already an option:
 
  Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
  documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the
  #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn
  and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
  create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them.
  As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
  maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of
  missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild
  development work themselves.

 I think these are really good advise but I think we could improve the
 way users can help concerning maintainer-needed packages.
 dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
 to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
 hole. For instance, the last bugday I tried to close some bugs. Some
 one them were assigned to maintainer-needed@,
 so I said on #gentoo-bugs that I've updated those bugs. Sometimes, a
 dev was watching and the issue was closed, but for others I have still
 no comments (Ok. I'm too impatient, but I'm not really confident. But
 some devs can still surprise me ;-) )

 I fully understand that looking at this type of bug is hard and
 boring. On the other hand, I know some devs who are willing to help
 and check patches. Since I don't think it would be a good practise to
 savagely CC' them, I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
 something like that.

many devs go through maintainer-needed bugs from time to time. i think the 
easy ones will get comitted fairly fast. instead of a bug-with-patch 
alias, i think a _easyfix_ alias could be more helpful. it could also be 
used by package maintainers, which dont have the time to do the _easyfix_ 
(rename version bump etc.)

sometimes the issue appears really simple, but it reallly isnt. in that 
case it would be nice, if it were deduceable from the bug, why no progress 
is being made.

also, i feel voting for bugs is completely underutilized. votes make it 
apparent to the developers which bugs bug a lot of people. the incentive 
to fix those first is there...

regards
Thilo


 Cheers,




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Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

2009-05-06 Thread Gilles Dartiguelongue
Le mardi 05 mai 2009 à 01:59 +0200, Olivier Huber a écrit :
 Hi,
 [...]

 , I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
 something like that.
 
 Cheers,
 
You mean something like the Inclusion keyword in bugzilla ? Or maybe a
separate keyword that would indicate unreviewed patches. It's sad we
don't have the ability to set per attachment status other than obsolete
in our bugzie but we can still figure ways to work without it.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue e...@gentoo.org
Gentoo




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-06 Thread Peter Faraday Weller
On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 01:45 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
 On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote:
[..snip..]
 I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount of time to 
 help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters etc ). The 
 thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence users or devs 
 who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really nice each 
 individual project to perform a clean up like:
 
 1) have an internal discussion about its goals and future
 2) Remove dead members and elect a new leader if necessary
 3) Update the page
 4) Publish its status
 5) Assist for help is necessary
 
 Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to project. 
 
 Is this so hard?

This is a really good idea, and I think that such an operation should be
performed (and perhaps even enforced as a yearly or twice-yearly thing).
The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead members
and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll
never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work on
$project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again...

welp




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-06 Thread Roy Bamford
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Hash: SHA1

On 2009.05.06 19:32, Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
 On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 01:45 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
  On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote:
 [..snip..]
  I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount
 of time to 
  help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters
 etc ). The 
  thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence 
 users
 or devs 
  who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really
 nice each 
  individual project to perform a clean up like:
[snip]
  
  Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to 
 project.
 
  
  Is this so hard?

[snip]
 The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead 
 members
 and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll
 never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work
 on
 $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again...
 
 welp
 
Welp,

Not so.

These projects would be delegated upwards to the council and either 
scrapped offically, or some recruitment process started to breath new 
life into them.

Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ?

- -- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
treecleaners
trustees
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-06 Thread Peter Faraday Weller
On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 19:40 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
[..snip..]
 
 [snip]
  The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead 
  members
  and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll
  never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work
  on
  $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again...
  
  welp
  
 Welp,
 
 Not so.
 
 These projects would be delegated upwards to the council and either 
 scrapped offically, or some recruitment process started to breath new 
 life into them.
 
 Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ?

This actually sounds like a pretty good idea, and one that I might
actually be interested in.

Someone working within such a project would have to be in close
communication with most/all of the team leads within Gentoo. I feel that
this would be a better solution than asking for (semi-)regular updates
from the teams - having someone to have a chat with the team lead is
much less formal and more relaxed way of ensuring that things are well.
If it seems that the project is having problems staying alive, a call
for help could be put out. If there is no improvement, the project could
be referred to the Gentoo Council to see if it should be
removed/abolished, otherwise...

Opinions/ideas welpcome!

welp




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Richard Freeman

Markos Chandras wrote:
Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in order to 
survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some people consider 
as anarchy




As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are 
greatly exaggerated.  I certainly agree that we need standards, but as 
far as I can tell those exist.


I'm not exactly sure what the actual problem is.  What resolvable issue 
is directly impacting the Gentoo community, and how would things 
actually be better if that issue didn't exist?  What is the itch that 
needs scratching?


I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left 
and right.  For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is 
down and continues to trend down.  Sure, manpower is limited, but the 
solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to work harder 
or quit (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help.  Arch 
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs 
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well 
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.


Is the issue anarchy, or the bazaar model in general?  You can't always 
have it both ways...




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:
 Markos Chandras wrote:
  Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in
  order to survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some
  people consider as anarchy

 As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are
 greatly exaggerated.  I certainly agree that we need standards, but as
 far as I can tell those exist.

 I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left
 and right.  For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is
 down and continues to trend down.  Sure, manpower is limited, but the
 solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to work harder
 or quit (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help. 
When,how,and who is going to write down a list of possible recruitment 
hunting actions? There is too much chit-chatting around but nobody ( 
including me of course) is daring to propose actual solutions and proposals
 Arch
 teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
 on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
 supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.
Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Tobias Klausmann
Hi! 

On Tue, 05 May 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
 Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
 arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

If I keel over and armin76 is stuck in work/'versity, the alpha
dev count is 0. Not exactly good, but we manage. I'm in the
process of recruiting an archtester and he may become a dev one
day.

That said, more feedback from /users/ regarding alpha would be
appreciated, but I doubt -dev@ is the best place to look for it
;)


Regards,
Tobias
(aka Blackb|rd on IRC)

-- 
panic(smp_callin() a\n);
linux-2.6.6/arch/parisc/kernel/smp.c



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Thomas Anderson
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
 On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:
  Arch
  teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
  on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
  supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.
 Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
 arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas
-- 
-
Thomas Anderson
Gentoo Developer
/
Areas of responsibility:
AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council
-


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Sergio D . Rodríguez Inclan
Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what is
needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.

-- 
Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan
-
http://srinclan.wordpress.com
Linux User #446728 -- http://counter.li.org/
--


Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
 Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what
 is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
Publish where? Blogs? mailing list? Forums? we dont have a centralized way to 
inform users about such issues so the publishing should be done in multiple 
places

*planet
*universe
*forum
*mailing list
*...

It is not that handy, is it?

Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
visit that page to read gentoo news :\
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Robert Bridge

Markos Chandras wrote:
Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
visit that page to read gentoo news :\


I can safely say that some never do...

RobbieAB



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:

Arch
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.

Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas

/me is listing all the reported issues

Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the 
project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that 
Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new 
developers right now


This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how 
do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and 
updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 
15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ).


If we really (?) want  to run a recruitment campaign, our web presence but 
be quite active and responsible.


Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with? 
If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Mounir Lamouri
Markos Chandras wrote:
 On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
   
 Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what
 is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
 
 [snip]

 Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
 visit that page to read gentoo news :\
   
There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
about it.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

Mounir



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:52:34 George Prowse wrote:

 Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with?
 If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?

I assume that this recruitment process does not address to every single gentoo 
user but to those who actually have technical knowledge and time to spare for 
their beloved distro :P. We have plenty of them on forums.gentoo.org ( and not 
only )
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 20:03:58 Mounir Lamouri wrote:
 Markos Chandras wrote:
  On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
  Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see
  what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
 
  [snip]
 
  Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users
  ever visit that page to read gentoo news :\

 There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
 about it.

 [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

 Mounir
Indeed there is. But I think that neither users nor developers are really 
using it
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Sergio D . Rodríguez Inclan

 There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
 about it.

 [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

 Mounir


None of the problems mentioned here are present on that page, the
information that could be useful is: how many developers are active, which
are the short/long term objectives of the project, what are the actual
problems/needs, news, etc. Each project could have this information on it's
project page but it need to be easily accessed by the users and constantly
updated, I'm sure there are people who doesn't have developer blood but can
do that kind of informational work.

-- 
Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan
-
http://srinclan.wordpress.com
Linux User #446728 -- http://counter.li.org/
--


Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread AllenJB

George Prowse wrote:

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp


Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you 
will be missed.


I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things 
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has 
been improving in the past 12 months.


About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago 
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in 
much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can 
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a 
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything 
about Gentoo wanting people.


If you book them, they will come.

G



In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. I've said it before in 
previous posts to the Gentoo -devel and -project lists, as well as my 
blog posts[0]: I think Gentoo needs to improve the organisation of the 
projects. I know it takes developer time to update project pages and do 
things like maintaining the developers wanted pages, but I think that 
Gentoo would see this returned in a higher number of competent 
developers. One of the biggest problems I have as someone considering 
becoming a developer is following what's going on and working out where 
I could make contributions that are both something I would enjoy doing 
and would be useful for current milestones (eg. autobuilds handbooks or 
improving / stabilizing KDE4) that are being worked on.


[0] http://allenjb.me.uk/category/linux/gentoo


On a related note, I thought the recent email from the Prefix project to 
the -devel list was excellent - it's exactly the sort of thing I would 
hope to find on a projects page on gentoo.org. It contains a detailed 
explanation of the project, its purpose, current state and aims and 
includes a roadmap so that (potential) contributors can easily see where 
they can help out in a way that will be considered useful by the 
development team.



I would also like to see some less secrecy for things that are going on. 
For example, I know that the newsletter team are currently working on a 
new setup for the newsletter. While I somewhat understand some of the 
reasons that the developers involved have chosen to not give out 
information on this project, I question the overall value in keeping 
such projects secret in this manner. A project page with the current 
progress and a roadmap of the project on would not only keep everyone 
informed, but might encourage contributions (in the form of solving any 
specific problems the developers are having, for example, or in the case 
of the newsletter, preparing content to contribute).


I've also spoken before on the bus factor, which I believe comes into 
play here. As far as I know only one or two developers are working on 
the project and if they were to disappear for a length of time for any 
reason, (virtually) all current knowledge of the project, its progress 
and its code / setup would be lost.



This leads me on to another issue I have with Gentoo development, which 
I believe is related, and that is the organisation of the source code 
repositories. As far as I can see there appears to be no formal 
organisational scheme to this at all, which can make it really hard to 
find things. Ideally, I would like to see a scheme that generally goes 
something like: /project/subproject/task. So, for example, you could 
find all the docs under /documentation and all the newsletter content 
under /pr/newsletter. (On a sidenote, the SVN repos seem a little better 
on this than the CVS repos layout, but it's still not as clear as I 
think it could be)


As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think 
there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis 
that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if 
they can find what they want to work on easily).



AllenJB



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote:
 George Prowse wrote:
  Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi
 
  Thanks,
  welp
 
  Sad to hear it mate.
 
  As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
  will be missed.
 
  I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
  because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
  been improving in the past 12 months.
 
  About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
  might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
  much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
  come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
  vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
  about Gentoo wanting people.
 
  If you book them, they will come.
 
  G

 In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. 
[..]
 As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think
 there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis
 that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if
 they can find what they want to work on easily).


 AllenJB
I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount of time to 
help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters etc ). The 
thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence users or devs 
who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really nice each 
individual project to perform a clean up like:

1) have an internal discussion about its goals and future
2) Remove dead members and elect a new leader if necessary
3) Update the page
4) Publish its status
5) Assist for help is necessary

Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to project. 

Is this so hard? 
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Markos Chandras
On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
 Hi,

 I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got
 too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me
 some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :(

 On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of
 management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming
[..] 
I might consider coming back.

Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to 
deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs 
retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and 
help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one 
who's having those thoughts.
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Ferris McCormick
On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400
Markos Chandras hwoar...@gentoo.org wrote:

 On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got
  too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me
  some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :(
 
  On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of
  management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming
 [..] 
 I might consider coming back.
 
 Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to 
 deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs 
 retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay 
 and 
 help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only 
 one 
 who's having those thoughts.

I've been a developer a bit over 5 years.  We know the problems and are
working to fix them.

 -- 
 Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
 Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
 Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

Regards,
Ferris
--
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) fmc...@gentoo.org
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Markos Chandras
On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote:
 On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400
[..]
 I've been a developer a bit over 5 years.  We know the problems and are
 working to fix them.

I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and 
more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems 
should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. 
There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when 
we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep 
the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on 
features :\
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.gr


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Vlastimil Babka

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of
management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more
likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming
nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. 


I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper
leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree
needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers,
not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do
*not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using
a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how
they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back.


Hi,

am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a 
centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time. 
Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :)
I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me (yeah 
the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to 
overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO.


It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet 
that will fix everything? Or pushing more and more EAPI's will?
I'm quite sure it won't fix the lack of focus. Which I somewhat feel 
too, but that may be just from the fact that I currently lack time (not 
motivation though, that seems almost inversely proportional :) ) for Gentoo.


If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something 
about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves.


Vlastimil



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Markos Chandras
On Monday 04 May 2009 18:54:09 Vlastimil Babka wrote:
 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of
  management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more
  likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming
  nigh-on impossible to keep track of things.
 
  I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper
  leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree
  needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers,
  not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do
  *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using
  a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how
  they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back.

 Hi,

 am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a
 centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time.
 Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :)
I dont think so. Centralized or distributed VCS does not have to do anything 
about the hierarchical structure of Gentoo.
 I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me
Depends of course on how each team/dev uses the overlay. Some of us use the 
overlays as testing places which is much better than pushing ebuilds directly 
to tree without extensive testing :)
 (yeah
 the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to
 overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO.
+1

 It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet
 that will fix everything? 
Certainly it will help development a lot. Take a look on git overlays ( qting-
edge,kde-testing etc ). The commit and bugfix rates are incredible because the 
VCS is amazingly fast. Using cvs, you need at least 2' for a simple commit of 
a single ebuild. Using git you can push 300 ebuilds at the same time. Imaging 
the difference... Git is an extra motivation ( at least for me :/ )
 Or pushing more and more EAPI's will?
No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need people. Then 
we can concentrate on features :)
 If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something
 about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves.
Any ideas?
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 4 May 2009 19:36:04 +0300
Markos Chandras hwoar...@gentoo.org wrote:
  Or pushing more and more EAPI's will?

 No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need
 people. Then we can concentrate on features :)

As it happens, a lot of the features that go into EAPIs are designed to
help with that. They make it easier to write good ebuilds (and harder
to get away with certain QA abuses by accident), possible to write
ebuilds that are less annoying and possible to write ebuilds that cover
things that could not previously be covered. And, looking at it the
other way, Gentoo has lost a lot of good people because they weren't
prepared to put up with EAPI stagnation.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread George Prowse

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp


Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you 
will be missed.


I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things 
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has 
been improving in the past 12 months.


About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago 
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in 
much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can 
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a 
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything 
about Gentoo wanting people.


If you book them, they will come.

G



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Mario Fetka
On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi
 
  Thanks,
  welp

 Sad to hear it mate.

 As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
 will be missed.

 I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
 because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
 been improving in the past 12 months.

 About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
 might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
 much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
 come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
 vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
 about Gentoo wanting people.

 If you book them, they will come.

 G

and I would be the first to come

Mario



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Mario Fetka
On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi
 
  Thanks,
  welp

 Sad to hear it mate.

 As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
 will be missed.

 I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
 because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
 been improving in the past 12 months.

 About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
 might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
 much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
 come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
 vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
 about Gentoo wanting people.

 If you book them, they will come.

 G

and I would be the first to come

Mario




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Richard Freeman

Markos Chandras wrote:
I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and 
more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems 
should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. 
There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when 
we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep 
the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on 
features :\


While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach 
of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved. 
The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't 
simply tell people close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff 
later.  We can certainly encourage people to do this, but there will 
ALWAYS be more maintenance items and I think we'll do better to keep 
Gentoo exciting and dynamic and try to attract more help, and then there 
will be more bodies around to take care of the grind of bugs.


Essentially features are what keeps a significant portion of the current 
manpower motivated.


Now, there are lots of people around who actually like doing maintenance 
and caring for specific packages, and we should certainly try to find 
more people like this.  However, those who would rather be implementing 
new EAPIs in Portage/Paludis/Pkgcore/whatever won't necessarily work on 
arch bugs just because there is a need for this.


I think the best we can do is try to highlight the issues so that those 
who are interested are aware of them and can sign up to help.


I'd also love to see the council and trustees actively looking for 
solutions to these problems, but it can't be the only issue on the agenda.


I've never been big on the whole Gentoo is dying meme.  All people and 
organizations are dying - we're all born dying.  Death is just the 
natural state of the universe in the absence of life.  Even if Gentoo 
were perfect and full of activity we would have people leaving for 
various reasons - the key is to have people coming in to replace and 
even surpass those who leave.  Gentoo has a LOT to offer the linux 
community - and if anything I'd say the level of innovation in Gentoo 
(and related projects) has been trending upwards in recent months.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Markos Chandras
On Monday 04 May 2009 21:24:11 Richard Freeman wrote:
 Markos Chandras wrote:
  I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more
  and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those
  problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until
  they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new
  features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring
  more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we
  are done with that, we can focus on features :\

 While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach
 of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved.
 The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't
 simply tell people close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff
 later.  
Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in order to 
survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some people consider 
as anarchy


-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Markos Chandras
On Monday 04 May 2009 20:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi
 
  Thanks,
  welp

 Sad to hear it mate.

 As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
 will be missed.

 I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
 because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
 been improving in the past 12 months.

 About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
 might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
 much the same way as the Bug Days? 
This is actually a very interesting idea

-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

2009-05-04 Thread Thomas Sachau
Mario Fetka schrieb:
 On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:
 Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
 Hi

 Thanks,
 welp
 Sad to hear it mate.

 As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
 will be missed.

 I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
 because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
 been improving in the past 12 months.

 About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
 might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
 much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
 come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
 vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
 about Gentoo wanting people.

 If you book them, they will come.

 G
 
 and I would be the first to come
 
 Mario
 
 
 

For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, 
there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation 
from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone 
willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create 
ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, 
that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all 
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good 
chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way 
to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably 
other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be 
the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options 
to become a new
developer.

-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread Tiziano Müller
Am Montag, den 04.05.2009, 15:35 +0300 schrieb Markos Chandras:
 On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote:
  On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400
 [..]
  I've been a developer a bit over 5 years.  We know the problems and are
  working to fix them.
 
 I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and 
 more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems 
 should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. 
 There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff 
 when 
 we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep 
 the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on 
 features :\

The point of most features is to make maintenance easier and reduce
breakages at user-side which hopefully reduces the amount of bugs
reported because of such breakages and keep our users happy and happy
users are more likely to contribute or become devs when they see some
progress.
But you're right, we have to find the balance somehow...


-- 
Tiziano Müller
Gentoo Linux Developer, Council Member
Areas of responsibility:
  Samba, PostgreSQL, CPP, Python, sysadmin, GLEP Editor
E-Mail   : dev-z...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : F327 283A E769 2E36 18D5  4DE2 1B05 6A63 AE9C 1E30


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Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

2009-05-04 Thread Olivier Huber
Hi,

2009/5/4 Thomas Sachau to...@gentoo.org
[snip]
 For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, 
 there is already an option:

 Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the 
 documentation from the topic. The
 Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone 
 willing to learn and
 contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create 
 ebuilds, how to improve them
 and how to maintain them.
 As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, 
 that dont get a
 developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all 
 contributors learn the ebuild
 development work themselves.

I think these are really good advise but I think we could improve the
way users can help concerning maintainer-needed packages.
dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
hole. For instance, the last bugday I tried to close some bugs. Some
one them were assigned to maintainer-needed@,
so I said on #gentoo-bugs that I've updated those bugs. Sometimes, a
dev was watching and the issue was closed, but for others I have still
no comments (Ok. I'm too impatient, but I'm not really confident. But
some devs can still surprise me ;-) )

I fully understand that looking at this type of bug is hard and
boring. On the other hand, I know some devs who are willing to help
and check patches. Since I don't think it would be a good practise to
savagely CC' them, I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or
something like that.

Cheers,

-- 
Olivier Huber



Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)

2009-05-04 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Olivier Huber oli.hu...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
 dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also
 to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black
[snip]

You forgot the references :)

Don't postpone putting them till the end! You *will* forget them! Add
them when you write the [$num]s ;)


-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan



[gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-03 Thread Peter Faraday Weller
Hi,

I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got
too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me
some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :(

On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of
management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more
likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming
nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. 

I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper
leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree
needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers,
not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do
*not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using
a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how
they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back.

If you *really* want me to stay/not retire, and attempt to help fix
these issues, then I guess I can do so if enough people request that of
me. But I will do so purely in a managerial position, and will do no
ebuild or other such development.

I'll still hang around in various channels and so on and so forth.

Whatever happens, I do apparently maintain a few misc packages, most of
which are low maintenance. Various herds will now need a new lead
(apologies guys), so that will have to be arranged as well. You will
also need to find another slacker to replace me ;)

If there isn't a mass revolt against my retirement, so long, and thanks
for all the fish! Otherwise... We'll see.

Thanks,
welp




Re: [gentoo-dev] retiring + looking maintainers for sendmail, tenshi, scapy, ftester

2008-02-07 Thread Robert Buchholz
On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Andrea Barisani wrote:
 Hi folks, I'm retiring.

Sorry to hear that.

 I was maintaining the following packages:

 app-admin/tenshi (note: I'm upstream as well)
 mail-mta/sendmail
 net-analyzer/scapy
 net-analyzer/ftester (note: I'm upstream as well)

sys-apps/systrace is in need of love too, and has open bugs.
But maybe we should just toss it away?


Robert


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Re: [gentoo-dev] retiring + looking maintainers for sendmail, tenshi, scapy, ftester

2008-02-07 Thread Tobias Scherbaum
Heya,

Andrea Barisani wrote:
 Hi folks, I'm retiring.

Sorry to see you go - i'd like to especially thank you for your ldap+ssh
+lpk effort! thanks! :)

 I was maintaining the following packages:
 
 app-admin/tenshi (note: I'm upstream as well)

I can take a look at tenshi if noone else is interested.

  Tobias


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[gentoo-dev] retiring + looking maintainers for sendmail, tenshi, scapy, ftester

2008-02-06 Thread Andrea Barisani

Hi folks, I'm retiring.

I was maintaining the following packages:

app-admin/tenshi (note: I'm upstream as well)
mail-mta/sendmail
net-analyzer/scapy
net-analyzer/ftester (note: I'm upstream as well)

So those needs new maintainership.

Cheers

-- 
Andrea Barisani [EMAIL PROTECTED].*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer  V
 (   )
PGP-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E^^_^^
  Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
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Re: [gentoo-dev] retiring + looking maintainers for sendmail, tenshi, scapy, ftester

2008-02-06 Thread Mike Auty

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Sorry to see you leave,
I can maintain scapy if no one else wants to?
Mike  5:)
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

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1IYpKEqzWFsdiFYXG7IJyhc=
=16SE
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[gentoo-dev] Retiring

2008-02-04 Thread Kevin F. Quinn
Hi all


I'm finally giving in to reality and retiring as a Gentoo Dev.  I've
been effectively inactive since March last year and lack of time
means that isn't going to change any time soon.  I'll still be using
Gentoo of course, so I'll still stick my nose in on bugzilla now and
again :)


There's not much out there that depends on me; packages that have my
name against them as maintainer are:

app-admin/eselect-oodict
app-text/hunspell
app-text/info2html
sys-apps/qtparted

and

app-dicts/myspell-*

There's useful work to be done on the myspell dictionaries (which are
used by hunspell). Currently various applications install their own
copies of dictionaries in various places - something that is just
wasteful and lazy.  I'd always intended to finish an eselect module for
managing myspell dictionaries; got some work done but never finished it
off. eselect-oodict was a quick version for dealing with OOo.org
dictionaries (which uses myspell dictionaries) and you can find my
attempts at a more generic eselect-myspell on bugzilla.  Doing that
needs co-operation from the relevant applications (particularly the
mozilla application set).

qtparted is controversial and may not be worth holding on to; see
bugzilla for details.


Lastly, just to say I've learned a lot from my involvement with Gentoo
over the time I was active and it has been very worthwhile for me;
hopefully I've managed to contribute at least something back to
compensate!


All the best,
Kev.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2008-02-04 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On 21:18 Mon 04 Feb , Kevin F. Quinn wrote:
 I'm finally giving in to reality and retiring as a Gentoo Dev.  I've
 been effectively inactive since March last year and lack of time
 means that isn't going to change any time soon.  I'll still be using
 Gentoo of course, so I'll still stick my nose in on bugzilla now and
 again :)

Feel free to keep trying to get hardened X working perfectly. =)

Thanks,
Donnie
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