Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Mon, 2009-05-18 at 18:04 +0200, gg wrote: [...] It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred. The idea that the pixel under the mouse pointer should stay at the same position on the screen is very cinematic -- when you zoom in or out, you should always have such a point on the screen, or people call your film Blair Witch and issue warnings about motion sickness... :) But it would be a lot clearer that this was happening if we actually had a cinematic zoom. Now, some of this is that I work on large images, but even on smaller ones, an example might be to draw tiles around the mouse pointer first (this would almost always be better than drawing them from the top, I suspect), and/or zooming the projection first then filling in details. I suppose an animation of a cross-hair cursor glowing for a moment would emphasis what was going on and might also help for things like a paste that happens off-screen (see another thread...) but might be too cutesy for gimp... When the whole image fits in the viewport, because it's really tiny, e.g. under 1,000 pixels on a side, maybe there could be two zoom-out steps, 100% and 100%-centered? Similarly, when the image is very large, but you zoomed out to, say, 5%, and it all fits in the window, at the point at which it would all fit, add a status message, zoom out once more to centre image ? And zooming out that time would not actually zoom out, but centre. To help people who zoom out to look at the overall picture, then zoom in, maybe we could borrow a text editor concept of marks (some GUI programs have this as well, e.g. Bryce 3d has keys bound to a number of different views/zooms/etc) -- press `` to toggle between shrink-fit and current view, for example. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 15:01, Maciej Pilichowski bluedz...@wp.pl wrote: On Sunday 17 May 2009 13:08:33 Fredrik Alströmer wrote: I don't want to add fuel to the fire, Nah :-), we are talking not quarreling :-)) Well, in that case... ;) I just wanted to point out that Sven is not alone in his opinion. I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit. It'll probably be very hard to solve for everyone, I guess solving for 'most people' (don't try to get a definition out of me on that one..) ;) is the best we can do. Note that I'm not saying I'm necessarily one of that group. I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me. I must say, now I don't understand what you're saying, so chances are there's been a misunderstanding here.. :) All I'm trying to say is that I zoom out and back in, perhaps a level or two to see the context, and without moving the mouse I zoom right back in again and get exactly the same view. If I do zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow). For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted. Ok, so now you've lost me. You're asking for kind of a 'bookmarked view', so you don't have to zoom in again but rather 'undo' your zoom outs? Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor, I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone. I just tried the same thing, and I ended up in Opa-Locka, Miami... Seriously though, how do you zoom in? (The behavior you're describing is consistent with clicking the + and - buttons? Keyboard perhaps?) If you're not using the scroll-wheel, than go ahead and take it for a spin. Zooming back out, same story, mouse in the lower right, and that's exactly where Miami ends up. The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing inout is preserved. Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too. If those 3 modes cannot be combined into one (and I guess not), I would love to see an option for it. After all, not every single behaviour work for everybody. Adding options is rarely the answer. It has a tendency to blow an application to pieces. See this here for example (ok, perhaps a bit exaggerated, but still funny, and on a meta-level actually rather accurate) http://stuffthathappens.com/blog/2008/03/05/simplicity/ I'm not familiar enough with the plug-in interfaces, but perhaps the behavior could be overridden using a plug-in, keeping the core product nice and clean. Greetings, Fredrik. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Rob Antonishen wrote: Instead of zooming in and out all the time why not vreate a new view at the other zoom to have both always available? So we are back to the old magnifying lens discussion? :) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Monday 18 May 2009 09:13:03 Fredrik Alströmer wrote: I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit. It'll probably be very hard to solve for everyone, I guess solving for 'most people' (don't try to get a definition out of me on that one..) ;) is the best we can do. Note that I'm not saying I'm necessarily one of that group. As I wrote before if we cannot find common solution (sometimes it is not possible) option is the way. I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me. I must say, now I don't understand what you're saying, so chances are there's been a misunderstanding here.. :) All I'm trying to say is that I zoom out and back in, perhaps a level or two to see the context, and here I am saying that gimp does not serve this purpose. and without moving the mouse I zoom right back in again and get exactly the same view. And here it does :-) Maybe examples: http://www.imagebam.com/image/3cd42136101635 I would like to get the context of the black circle in the top. What is the context of it? I place mouse cursor over it and perform zoom out _twice_. http://www.imagebam.com/image/088e8136101636 Still I don't see too much, so 2 x zoom out... http://www.imagebam.com/image/8b484e36101637 Still no good, 2 x zoom out again... http://www.imagebam.com/image/e0cc2e36101638 Ok, finally I have clue it is Kenora. But for comparison look how much data I get (bottom of the screen) that is no related at all. For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted. Ok, so now you've lost me. You're asking for kind of a 'bookmarked view', so you don't have to zoom in again but rather 'undo' your zoom outs? Actually no, but it is a good idea if the zoomscroll would be implemented. This would be the tool for those interested in getting back _exactly_ where they started. I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone. I just tried the same thing, and I ended up in Opa-Locka, Miami... Seriously though, how do you zoom in? (The behavior you're describing is consistent with clicking the + and - buttons? Keyboard perhaps?) If you're not using the scroll-wheel, than go ahead and take it for a spin. I don't use scroll wheel, only keyboard, examples: http://www.imagebam.com/image/d643d536101633 mouse cursor is at the red dot, I zoom in and... http://www.imagebam.com/image/52257236101634 ... I cannot see the area I was pointing out, so now I have to scroll. Adding options is rarely the answer. It has a tendency to blow an application to pieces. See this here for example (ok, perhaps a bit exaggerated, but still funny, and on a meta-level actually rather accurate) http://stuffthathappens.com/blog/2008/03/05/simplicity/ This example is funny of course, but it is about UI, not options. Go to this page: http://www.google.com/ Simple interface, right? But go options: http://www.google.com/preferences?hl=en Not that simple :-)) I think that banning options and trying to fit people into one UI is one extreme, the second putting option for each UI without thinking if they share the same parts is another. By definition those two UIs: * scroll zoom * stay zoom are opposites, so they cannot be combined. We can think if we could easily add aims to achieve the other within one. It is possible for scroll zoom with adding undo zoom or bookmark zoom. For stay zoom it could be center this point. But both look artificial. I don't see that such option is an overkill but it allow _all_ users to customize gimp to _their_ needs. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing inout is preserved. Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too. I think this is the main point from a GUI design angle. The GUI should be consistant in it's action. Scroll-wheel zooming in and out is a great feature for the most part. The point at which the behaviour changes and it jumps to one side is mentally disrouting and breaks work flow. It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred. It seems that this assumption needs to be re-examined. Is this always the best behaviour? On opening an image it would seem a logical choice but on zooming out I would maintain that continuity of the mental focal point is the most important for usability and workflow. In this context whether the user wishes to ALSO centre the image in the window is a secondary and largely separate issue. This can be achieved by a shrink wrap for example. I'm glad this subject has come up because this is a constant annoyance when working close in on images. The initial zoom-in is generally a series of zoom-drag-zoom-drag operations. There is no reason why subsequently re-zooming to the same work area should be equally laborious. /gg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
gg wrote: It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred. Yes this is correct. Before we added this logic it was a pain to work with the zoom; often when you zoomed out the image ended up completely offsetted out in a corner in the image window. I am completely open to improving zoom however since I also have the feeling it is not working as perfect as it could, including the zoom logic where the pixel remains under cursor while zooming. Someone just has to sit down and write a spec on how it should work and which gives the complete picture. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Martin Nordholts wrote: Yes this is correct. Before we added this logic it was a pain to work with the zoom; often when you zoomed out the image ended up completely offsetted out in a corner in the image window. I am completely open to improving zoom however since I also have the feeling it is not working as perfect as it could, including the zoom logic where the pixel remains under cursor while zooming. Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the mousewheel zoom to center on the mouse cursor while hitting + and - on the keyboard should zoom from the center... Just my 0.02 EUR... -- Kurt Bernhard Pruenner --- Haendelstrasse 17 --- 4020 Linz --- Austria ...It might be written Mindfuck, but it's spelt L-A-I-N... np: Secede - Vega Libre: Tetsu Inoue Remix (Vega Libre) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Monday 18 May 2009 20:46:21 Kurt Pruenner wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the mousewheel zoom to center on the mouse cursor while hitting + and - on the keyboard should zoom from the center... This would mean that people with some disabilities are limited by gimp. The same applies to users with specific hardware (for example I block scroll wheel because it increases RSI). Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
The most natural-feeling zoom tools I have used do something similar to this. Instead of centering on the mouse cursor, they zoom such that the pixel under the mouse cursor does not move. This makes the zoom feel very smooth, imho. On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Kurt Pruenner l...@gmx.at wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the mousewheel zoom to center on the mouse cursor while hitting + and - on the keyboard should zoom from the center... ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 22:10, Maciej Pilichowski bluedz...@wp.pl wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 22:02:53 Sven Neumann wrote: On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:55 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote: Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image. We had it implemented that way, but it caused too much other problems. I just commented to your zooming in and out _is_ consistent. It is not. The reason why it is not is another story. Thank you for the reference of course. I don't want to add fuel to the fire, I just wanted to point out that Sven is not alone in his opinion. Yes you're right, if you zoom out far enough, so that the image is smaller than your viewing window, this behavior no longer applies. However, I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). If I do zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow). Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor, imagine it being some other way (and yes, there are some maps-services doing it differently, primary reason for me not using them even if they sometimes have better source material). http://gui.gimp.org/ Of course we are open to improves these specifications further. But your proposals should be made after understanding the reasons for the current behavior. You are right, thank you. Cheers, PS. I _am_ subscriber to this ML :-) No need to CC me. OK! :) Just my two cents... Greetings, Fredrik. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Sunday 17 May 2009 13:08:33 Fredrik Alströmer wrote: I don't want to add fuel to the fire, Nah :-), we are talking not quarreling :-)) I just wanted to point out that Sven is not alone in his opinion. I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit. I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me. If I do zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow). For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted. Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor, I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone. The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing inout is preserved. Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too. If those 3 modes cannot be combined into one (and I guess not), I would love to see an option for it. After all, not every single behaviour work for everybody. For me usefulness is such: 1) center while zooming (PSP) 2) google maps 3) gimp ad.2) that's because it is similar to (1). I could center the area of interest by myself, and then zoom out/in as many times as I want to, and this area is still in the center. This mode could be achieved in theory with the script, but gimp cannot scroll the image freely so the usability would be limited to cases when the image fits entire window Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Instead of zooming in and out all the time why not vreate a new view at the other zoom to have both always available? -Rob A. On 5/17/09, Maciej Pilichowski bluedz...@wp.pl wrote: On Sunday 17 May 2009 13:08:33 Fredrik Alströmer wrote: I don't want to add fuel to the fire, Nah :-), we are talking not quarreling :-)) I just wanted to point out that Sven is not alone in his opinion. I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit. I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me. If I do zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow). For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted. Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor, I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone. The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing inout is preserved. Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too. If those 3 modes cannot be combined into one (and I guess not), I would love to see an option for it. After all, not every single behaviour work for everybody. For me usefulness is such: 1) center while zooming (PSP) 2) google maps 3) gimp ad.2) that's because it is similar to (1). I could center the area of interest by myself, and then zoom out/in as many times as I want to, and this area is still in the center. This mode could be achieved in theory with the script, but gimp cannot scroll the image freely so the usability would be limited to cases when the image fits entire window Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer -- Sent from my mobile device ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Sunday 17 May 2009 16:40:54 Rob Antonishen wrote: Instead of zooming in and out all the time why not vreate a new view at the other zoom to have both always available? Well, I could zoom in and then not zoom out at all, just scroll, but both those solutions require more work than zooming out. Not mentioning they are not as flexible. Depending on the details of the image I choose place and zoom level. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Maciej Pilichowski (bluedz...@wp.pl) wrote (in part) (on 2009-05-14 at 09:08): But for zooming out there is no such cheap workaround. Image: DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC letters are off the screen, digits are visible. | denotes edges Now -- I would like to zoom out on 5 (I would like to focus on that area), how do I do? a) move mouse over 1 (sic!) and zoom out b) move mouse over 5, zoom out, and then scroll the image ad.b) this is tiresome ad.a) this is completely counter-intuitive, in order to zoom out element X I need to zoom out the opposite of X. This is more problematic with conversion when car driver gets on yacht (left-right problem) If you've zoomed in using the Zoom tool and drawing an area with mouse-click and drag ... as you say - not easily discoverable, but once discovered, moving mouse to extreme left (or slightly better results extreme top left) appears to leave desired area always visible though at some point a mouse wheel scroll may be necessary. However (I hadn't tried this before) if with zoom-tool you do Ctrl+click+drag to define area of interest then release AFAICT the area of interest always remains visible. Possible problem (?) - you may find it zooms out too quickly. Again AFAICT ctrl+drag-drop a large area gives better results than a small area. ie. small area vs large area zoom-out may indicate why ctrl+click zoom-out may be giving you problems? And more about (a) -- while zooming in, the mouse cursor movement is small, so I can live with that, but on zooming out, the movement is huge -- it is entire screen. The wish: Please recenter focused area on zoom out (and possible on zoom in). ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Friday 15 May 2009 09:06:25 Alec Burgess wrote: However (I hadn't tried this before) if with zoom-tool you do Ctrl+click+drag to define area of interest then release AFAICT the area of interest always remains visible. Possible problem (?) - you may find it zooms out too quickly. I tried it and I see several problems: * as you mentioned, it zooms out too quickly * it is totally inaccurate, gimp seems cannot to shift the image, so the portion I am interested in is centered, in test case it was area near the edge of the image and after zooming out it was at the right border of the window * it requires a lot of clicking, dragging with LMB hold down is a hard to do for people with even mild disabilities * it requires to change the tool I am not saying this (above) functionality should be removed, but the new one added. I would then: * point out the area, no dragging * press + or - key End. I would get nice, smooth zoom, any change of the focus-area would be totally easy to, just move the mouse. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Hi, On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 15:08 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC letters are off the screen, digits are visible. | denotes edges Now -- I would like to zoom out on 5 (I would like to focus on that area), how do I do? What is your definition of focusing on that area? Focusing on the 5 for means having 5 under the mouse pointer. And that is exactly how zoom is implemented right now. You put 5 under the mouse pointer and no matter if you zoom in or out, it will stay there. Now how can you possibly argue that this is not intuitive and useful? I seriously don't understand your problem. Nor do I understand what changes you are suggesting. Possible solution: -- The centering idea -- please note that I am open to any other idea that would lead to productivity boost. Let's focus on zoom out: * I point out the area * I zoom out * gimp know which area I would like to focus on, so the whole image is scrolled in such way, that the area travels towards center of the window How is the center of the window relevant? What counts is what's under the cursor as that is where you are going to work next. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Friday 15 May 2009 19:57:39 Sven Neumann wrote: DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC What is your definition of focusing on that area? Focusing on the 5 for means having 5 under the mouse pointer. Now how can you possibly argue that this is not intuitive and useful? I seriously don't understand your problem. Nor do I understand what changes you are suggesting. That's because you don't consider that focusing on 5 means what the user would like to do -- possible some alteration, or copying some fragment. Let's say you are the program (gimp), I ask you in natural language Sven, I would like to work on 5 a bit, could you please show it to me. What would you do -- give me: a) K12345 b) 12345A If you think about intelligent anticipation of course (b) is more valueable because it presents the context of the 5, while (a) presents irrelevant information (K). With (a) there is _zero_ new data relevant to 5. With current behaviour I have to cover those shortcomings and scroll all the time. Possible solution: -- The centering idea -- please note that I am open to any other idea that would lead to productivity boost. Let's focus on zoom out: * I point out the area * I zoom out * gimp know which area I would like to focus on, so the whole image is scrolled in such way, that the area travels towards center of the window How is the center of the window relevant? What counts is what's under the cursor as that is where you are going to work next. Nope. What counts is the context of the data, because it is _relevant_. Data shown 1000 pixels distant from where I work are far less useful than data 1 pixel away, which I cannot see because gimp didn't showed it to me. Currently the image is glued to the mouse cursor which I don't find any useful -- I would like to see big picture (or more details), I move the mouse anyway. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Hi, On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 20:20 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: Currently the image is glued to the mouse cursor which I don't find any useful -- I would like to see big picture (or more details), I move the mouse anyway. Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. If you zoom out too far, you can easily zoom back in without loosing the area of interest. I think that clearly outweights the lack of context you may get. And you only get that when your cursor is far off the image center. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote: Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image. If you zoom out too far, you can easily zoom back in without loosing the area of interest. Only if image does not fit the window (gimp 2.6.6). If SVN still does this it is a bug then, but I assume it is or will be fixed. I think that clearly outweights the lack of context you may get. And you only get that when your cursor is far off the image center. Yes, but zoom in-zoom out stability could be easily corrected with small mouse movement of the user (currently user has to do it anyway, see above). On the other hand with current behaviour you have to do huge mouse movement to make the scrolls. You have to make the hoops _all the time_ to center area of interest (while zooming in point _not_ to area of interest, to push it). It is far from natural. So there are more costs than benefits currently. And there is also one advantage in wished behaviour, well, by definition, you could scroll while zooming -- it is not great benefit for handicapped users, but no penalty though. For any other user it is great help because in one task you can perform two. Sven, if you are not convinced, what about an option? (yes, I am KDE user :-DDD): [ ] scroll on zoom * you could center the area of interest just by pointing at it and zooming in * you would get context of the area just by pointing at it and zooming out no scrolling, no artificial mouse movement. Just point and zoom. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
Hi, On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:55 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote: Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image. We had it implemented that way, but it caused too much other problems. You can follow all this by reading the mailing-list archives and by studying the specs published at http://gui.gimp.org/ Of course we are open to improves these specifications further. But your proposals should be made after understanding the reasons for the current behavior. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Friday, May 15, 2009, 21:38:04, Sven Neumann wrote: Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. If you zoom out too far, you can easily zoom back in without loosing the area of interest. I think that clearly outweights the lack of context you may get. I by far prefer the behaviour of PSP - the closer to the edge of image you zoom, the more the viewport moves in that direction. Makes it really easy (and fast) to move around the image by just rolling the wheel up and down (which zooms in and out in PSP, regardless of the selected tool). -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ Authority tends to assign jobs to those least able to do them. -- Cornuelle's Law ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] center on focused area on zoom out
On Friday 15 May 2009 22:02:53 Sven Neumann wrote: On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:55 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote: Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image. We had it implemented that way, but it caused too much other problems. I just commented to your zooming in and out _is_ consistent. It is not. The reason why it is not is another story. Thank you for the reference of course. http://gui.gimp.org/ Of course we are open to improves these specifications further. But your proposals should be made after understanding the reasons for the current behavior. You are right, thank you. Cheers, PS. I _am_ subscriber to this ML :-) No need to CC me. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
