Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Saturday 16 May 2009 00:09:45 Alchemie foto\grafiche wrote: Is not simple and intuitive create, or move, the selection where you want your object be paste ? I just found out -- maybe I put my wish into reverse. Instead of changing current behaviour maybe adding function: a) sticky dragging or/and b) move it here This will not affect how gimp works now in any way (0 penalty) but would enhance abilities to fast move the blocks. (a) could be great for handicapped users So my workflow would be like this (option b): * copy * paste * confirm * paste * ctrl+shift+h (this will move the block from its initial position to the position of the mouse) ctrl+shift+h is of course just an example. Sticky dragging is similar, it glues the block to the mouse, so you don't need to hold LMB while dragging (relief for users with even RSI). User in such case could choose whatever fit the best current situation. What do you think? Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Maciej Pilichowski wrote: So my workflow would be like this (option b): * copy * paste * confirm * paste * ctrl+shift+h (this will move the block from its initial position to the position of the mouse) ctrl+shift+h is of course just an example. Sticky dragging is similar, it glues the block to the mouse, so you don't need to hold LMB while dragging (relief for users with even RSI). User in such case could choose whatever fit the best current situation. What do you think? I think the concept your propose is interesting, but I also feel it is highly optimized for your own workflow, and doing interaction design based on several peoples personal desires is never a good idea. I'd like to see your proposal presented in terms of the bigger GIMP UI picture. This site will be a starting point for doing such a thing: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 11:17 -0700, Akkana Peck wrote: I've found the paste centers behavior quite useful, and have recommended it to lots of other people as a quick way to center a layer (which used to be a FAQ, though less so now that the align tool exists). We could add Center Layer to the menus. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 20:48 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: On Thursday 14 May 2009 20:17:43 Akkana Peck wrote: I've found the paste centers behavior quite useful, It is predictable and more useful than random placement for sure. But with hires monitor I would still like some kind of hint from the mouse. Maybe LMB click and then paste would do it? So I am for dropping random placement, and using centered placement. GIMP doesn't place the pasted content randomly. What makes you think so? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 13:21 -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote: When there is no selection, and you paste, the paste typically ends up 3,926,201 screens above where you are working (for me at least). Not sure what version of GIMP you are using. But the current code has the following logic: If there is a selection, paste to the center of the selection boundary. If there is no selection, paste to the center of the viewport unless that would place the selection completely outside the drawable we we are pasting to. If we still didn't find a suitable position, fall back to the center of the image. I didn't check all corner cases, but the code looks OK and the little tests I did seem to indicate that the behavior is as I described. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Friday 15 May 2009 20:40:21 Sven Neumann wrote: GIMP doesn't place the pasted content randomly. What makes you think so? Because I don't see any relevance in second paste to what I do (and where I do) and I see no relevance between first paste and the second one. And it should be. I know that concept of adding some kind of AI is ridiculous, but simple anticipation is possible -- where user works is very likely where she/he is focused. Cheers, PS. I am now subscriber of this ML. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Friday 15 May 2009 21:03:27 Sven Neumann wrote: Not sure what version of GIMP you are using. But the current code has the following logic: If there is a selection, paste to the center of the selection boundary. If there is no selection, paste to the center of the viewport unless that would place the selection completely outside the drawable we we are pasting to. The unless part should be enhanced also to outside viewable and added to the first section. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
When you paste a second time, the first paste should still be visible and selected(?) and the floating selection is the current drawable, and thus the second paste end up on top of it (allowing for difference in paste sizes), right? Can you elaborate on the precise order of operations that results in the second paste ending up somewhere random? On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Maciej Pilichowski bluedz...@wp.pl wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 20:40:21 Sven Neumann wrote: GIMP doesn't place the pasted content randomly. What makes you think so? Because I don't see any relevance in second paste to what I do (and where I do) and I see no relevance between first paste and the second one. And it should be. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:16 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: GIMP doesn't place the pasted content randomly. What makes you think so? Because I don't see any relevance in second paste to what I do (and where I do) and I see no relevance between first paste and the second one. And it should be. I explained the currently implemented logic in another mail. It is by far not random. Did you even try a recent development snapshot before you posted your wishes here? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Friday 15 May 2009 21:25:54 Sven Neumann wrote: I explained the currently implemented logic in another mail. It is by far not random. Did you even try a recent development snapshot before you posted your wishes here? I tried it for a test and it is centered indeed :-) However since I move the window it is not easy to spot (on a big screen) if you don't know where to look for (what to find). From perspective of user focused on this and that area it is not in the area of interest (with the exception you are focused on the middle of the window). So I keep my wish -- that second paste and further would be placed initially within the are I work on. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Friday 15 May 2009 21:23:57 Sparr wrote: When you paste a second time, the first paste should still be visible and selected(?) and the floating selection is the current drawable, and thus the second paste end up on top of it (allowing for difference in paste sizes), right? Can you elaborate on the precise order of operations that results in the second paste ending up somewhere random? As Sven explained it is centered indeed, not truly random. But to realize the need of sane placement of the second paste, take an image, zoom it in, copy a rectangle from left, upper corner, paste it, confirm, paste it again, you have to go for the block (to dd) right, down. Ok drag it and drop it in the initial corner. Now, copy something from bottom, right corner, paste it, confirm, paste it again. Now you have to go up, left. When you copypaste a lot of blocks all the time it really looks like a random process because you are chasing the second paste all over the window. This is not productive behaviour and can be improved by anticipating the more appropriate placement. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:42 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote: On Friday 15 May 2009 21:23:57 Sparr wrote: When you paste a second time, the first paste should still be visible and selected(?) and the floating selection is the current drawable, and thus the second paste end up on top of it (allowing for difference in paste sizes), right? Can you elaborate on the precise order of operations that results in the second paste ending up somewhere random? As Sven explained it is centered indeed, not truly random. But to realize the need of sane placement of the second paste, take an image, zoom it in, copy a rectangle from left, upper corner, paste it, confirm, paste it again, you have to go for the block (to dd) right, down. Ok drag it and drop it in the initial corner. Now, copy something from bottom, right corner, paste it, confirm, paste it again. Now you have to go up, left. Simple enough to press Shift-Ctrl-A if you don't need your selection any longer. Than what you paste won't end up being placed there. Sure, perhaps this can still be improved, but it needs careful thinking and a proper analysis of the current behavior and possible work-flows. A lot of thought and effort has gone into the current behavior. And I refuse to discuss such changes with someone who completely disrespects this effort and calls the placement random. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Friday 15 May 2009 21:52:01 Sven Neumann wrote: And I refuse to discuss such changes with someone who completely disrespects this effort and calls the placement random. Surely it is your call, for me it is odd though that using word random is taken as offense and being just a user of gimp is treated as disrespect to developers -- it is not and it was not. But of course you can feel it that way. No irony/offense of any kind was intended previously and now. What I have in mind is improving productivity of software I use, in those talks, Gimp. Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Logic may be even changed, but before change something is better understand how it works Paste is centered at the center of the selection (if any) Is not simple and intuitive create, or move, the selection where you want your object be paste ? How i would able to guess a relation with the position of my mouse cursor and a object to be pasted ? i can not see any logical connection But i may well guess a relation with the selection Only other meaningful relation i am able to imagine is center at the intersect point of 2 guides IF snap to guide is enabled (and no more then 2 guides are used) If not will be required for GIMP not only develop a advanced AI but even telepathic skills , because if for you may be relevant the position of the mouse, for me may be much more relevant the center of the portion of image i zoomed in...and who know what may seems more relevant for somebody else ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Hi, In GIMP 2.6.2 when pasting several references are taken into account -- and that is useful. But if there is no reference (no previously selected region for example) it would be useful to paste the block initially at mouse cursor position (counting left, upper corner of the rectangle which boundaries of the block make, as the base point). So I could move mouse into desired place, paste, and then just fine tune the final position. Currently the block is shifted so much that I have to drag it back each time. Kind regards, PS. I am posting it here instead of bugzilla because I was asked every time to do so. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Maciej Pilichowski wrote: Hi, But if there is no reference (no previously selected region for example) it would be useful to paste the block initially at mouse cursor position (counting left, upper corner of the rectangle which boundaries of the block make, as the base point). I don't think it is a good idea to use the cursor as the insertion point since this is both very uncommon and not very practical, the mouse cursor is too volatile for this. More reasonable is to use the selection as the insertion point, and this is currently how it works. Using this as a base for an improved workflow seems like a better idea to me. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Thursday 14 May 2009 18:43:01 Martin Nordholts wrote: Maciej Pilichowski wrote: Hi, But if there is no reference (no previously selected region for example) it would be useful to paste the block initially at mouse cursor position I don't think it is a good idea to use the cursor as the insertion point since this is both very uncommon and not very practical, the mouse cursor is too volatile for this. More reasonable is to use the selection as the insertion point, and this is currently how it works. Using this as a base for an improved workflow seems like a better idea to me. I quoted entire mail to repeat -- if there is __no__ reference. If there is some reference, sure, I agree with you. On the first paste there is one, and gimp uses it. On the second (sequence) paste there is no reference and gimp shows the pasted block randomly. So, I opt for some kind of predictability vs. randomness. And in such case, mouse cursor position is a good reference. In other words, please make the mouse cursor position as last resort (when everything else fails). Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 18:43 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote: [...] I don't think it is a good idea to use the cursor as the insertion point since this is both very uncommon and not very practical, the mouse cursor is too volatile for this. More reasonable is to use the selection as the insertion point, and this is currently how it works. Using this as a base for an improved workflow seems like a better idea to me. When there is no selection, and you paste, the paste typically ends up 3,926,201 screens above where you are working (for me at least). So the workflow is 1) paste 2) zoom out until yu find the selection 3) when you can't see it, turn on the marching ants 4) use the move tool and shift-arrow to drag the selection (or drag with the mouse if it's solid so you can actually grab it when it's only a few mm long on the screen) 5) zoom in on the place where you want to work, a step at a time, gradually moving the floating selection 6) when you get to 50% or 100% so you can work, try to remember why you wanted whatever you pasted. Why you think that's a smoother workflow than 1) paste so floating selection appears on the screen 2) continue working is beyond me. When there *is* a selection, normal procedure is 1) undo the paste 2) select none 3) paste and follow the 6-step path to confusion given above :-) For me at least. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Maciej Pilichowski wrote: So, I opt for some kind of predictability vs. randomness. And in such case, mouse cursor position is a good reference. I don't think the cursor is ever a good insertion point. It is better than a random insertion point, yes, but so what? It's still not a good insertion point IMO. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
On Thursday 14 May 2009 19:26:41 Martin Nordholts wrote: It is better than a random insertion point, yes, but so what? I am puzzled -- if it is better (and I agree) we should use it. Is there any reason to keep worse UI? I think progress means search for better solutions and use them. Here is better solution -- use the mouse cursor position instead of random position. It's still not a good insertion point IMO. By definition it won't be any better because we are talking about case where are no other hints. So it is the best we have (I agree with you it is fragile, of course it is). Cheers, ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [wish] when pasting without any reference use mouse cursor position
Liam R E Quin writes: 5) zoom in on the place where you want to work, a step at a time, gradually moving the floating selection 6) when you get to 50% or 100% so you can work, try to remember why you wanted whatever you pasted. Why you think that's a smoother workflow than 1) paste so floating selection appears on the screen 2) continue working is beyond me. I've found the paste centers behavior quite useful, and have recommended it to lots of other people as a quick way to center a layer (which used to be a FAQ, though less so now that the align tool exists). That said, it's hard to see an argument for anyone wanting to paste to a part of the image that isn't visible. Surely most people paste because they want to do something with the pasted layer, which requires it being visible on screen. Perhaps paste should center within the visible viewport? ...Akkana ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
