Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 01:38:52PM -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote: [cut] > Other than the two visual cue changes I wouldn't change anything about how > resizing currently works. As I said before, I think it works better than > any other program I have previously used. Oh yeah! :-) -- Marco Ciampa ++ | Linux User #78271 | | FSFE fellow #364 | ++ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
Juhana Sadeharju wrote: After making preselection on 5000x5000 image, if only handles are grabbable and one zooms in to details of the image, then the handles may not be visible. It becomes impossible to do precision selections. The edges are always visible when needed and edge-grabbability works. That is exactly the point I was going to make. I have no better solution for visual hint on that the edges can be grabbed. If users are that used to other programs and their 8 handles for resizing, then add the other four tiny little squares in the middle of the sides. If they think they need to click on one of the 8 squares to resize, the change in cursor as they get close to the 8 little black squares should make them realize they don't actually need to grab the "handles" to resize. Can the handles be arrows like this "<- | ->" across the edge? I agree that it would make sense for the arrows to point in both directions when you are near an edge or corner. Right now, they point in only the "make it larger" direction. Other than the two visual cue changes I wouldn't change anything about how resizing currently works. As I said before, I think it works better than any other program I have previously used. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include| -Pinkutus & the Borg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
>From: Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I know at least one professional in user interface design who strongly >disagrees with this. When we asked Peter Sikking to have a look at the That was interesting, but he is simply wrong -- I'm sure he would design the tool differently after knowing the problem. After making preselection on 5000x5000 image, if only handles are grabbable and one zooms in to details of the image, then the handles may not be visible. It becomes impossible to do precision selections. The edges are always visible when needed and edge-grabbability works. I'm not UI professional or wanna-be but I had the problem a couple years ago and you suggested to use the guides at meanwhile. It is now good that we have a real solution to the problem. I have no better solution for visual hint on that the edges can be grabbed. If the selection tool on and the edges are solid, then it might be ok to assume the edges can be grabbed and moved. The switch of icon when the pointer is over the edge would confirm the case. That is how it works in audio editors -- users expect the grabbability. But how grabbability is indicated in Blender? Blender indicates the active object by using different color, but how Blender indicates that an object can be selected and activated? With nothing? Can the handles be arrows like this "<- | ->" across the edge? Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
Quoting Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Hi, On Mon, 2006-08-14 at 22:29 -0500, Tim Jedlicka wrote: Why make only the handles grabbable? I don't understand the harm in having all edges grabbable. I think the idea is that different actions are assigned to different handles. If you grab a handle in the middle of an edge, you only resize in one direction. So if only the handles can be grabbed, it would be clear what's going to happen. But I am not sure if this means that only the handles should work. I would probably appreciate if one could grab somewhere in the vicinity of a handle as well. My strong preference is to have only the four corner "handles". Extra indicators clutter up the interface and a restriction to only moving the handles seems unnecessary and limiting. Selections are the most important aspect of using the GIMP and they should be "streamlined" for proficient use; not designed to cater to the absolute novice. Clicking on an edge of selection frame and moving it is not inconsistent with the manner in which paths are edited, especially so when in the "polygonal" mode. The current implementation is fine: the corner handles indicate an unconstrained move while anywhere else on the selection border constrains the motion. The constraint feature itself is not a requirement of using the tool and therefore, if "undiscovered", no real functionality is lost. (I would submit that even without any knowledge of the tool's operation, the constraint feature *will* be discovered and easily understood. I "discovered" it quite by accident and its functionality seemed very intuitive.) Please reconsider what is gained by adding four more handles versus the clutter (and even confusion) that they bring to the interface. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
Hi, On Mon, 2006-08-14 at 22:29 -0500, Tim Jedlicka wrote: > Why make only the handles grabbable? I don't understand the harm in > having all edges grabbable. I think the idea is that different actions are assigned to different handles. If you grab a handle in the middle of an edge, you only resize in one direction. So if only the handles can be grabbed, it would be clear what's going to happen. But I am not sure if this means that only the handles should work. I would probably appreciate if one could grab somewhere in the vicinity of a handle as well. > This is especially true for the center handle. Take the user case > where I make a selection but now want to fine tune the placement of > the selection (i.e. I want to fine tune the placement of the SW > corner). If I zoom the image such that the center handle is no longer > displayed I have no way of moving the selection. You could still move it using some modifier key. But the center handle is much better discoverable than a modifier key. Currently, a lot of users simply don't know how to move a selection. If we offer a handle that they can grab, that problem would be solved. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
On 8/14/06, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (2) to enlarge the handles and to make only the handles grabbable(3) to add another handle in the center for moving the selection Why make only the handles grabbable? I don't understand the harm in having all edges grabbable. This is especially true for the center handle. Take the user case where I make a selection but now want to fine tune the placement of the selection (i.e. I want to fine tune the placement of the SW corner). If I zoom the image such that the center handle is no longer displayed I have no way of moving the selection.-- Tim Jedlicka, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.galifree.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
From: Juhana Sadeharju <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:12:05 +0300 > >If I have multiple views to the same image, is the rectangle tool, >the crop tool, etc. visible in each view? > >For example, I may have one view to the entire 5000x5000 image, >and second view of size 500x500 in which I do precision placement >of the tools. No, that would be nice, but tool drawing gets applied on a display-specific basis, for any tool. It would be major work to change this. -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
If I have multiple views to the same image, is the rectangle tool, the crop tool, etc. visible in each view? For example, I may have one view to the entire 5000x5000 image, and second view of size 500x500 in which I do precision placement of the tools. Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
Hi, > From: Juhana Sadeharju <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >The handles may confuse users if really the grabbing can be done by > >clicking in anywhere on the edge. (That is the preferred way to do it > >since the first interactive graphics system was written.) > >The handles should be removed. I know at least one professional in user interface design who strongly disagrees with this. When we asked Peter Sikking to have a look at the new selection tools, he strongly emphasized that the most important improvements should be done are: (1) to use eight handles so that one can easily do horizontal and vertical resizing (2) to enlarge the handles and to make only the handles grabbable (3) to add another handle in the center for moving the selection (4) to give immidiate cursor feedback on the handles and when pressing and releasing modifier keys http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2006/07/working-on-gimp.html I would strongly suggest to at least consider this advice before jumping to the conclusion that the handles should be removed. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
From: Juhana Sadeharju <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >The handles may confuse users if really the grabbing can be done by >clicking in anywhere on the edge. (That is the preferred way to do it >since the first interactive graphics system was written.) >The handles should be removed. What you are saying makes sense, but there needs to be some visual indication that the rectangle can be modified by moving the edges -- it must not look like a plain ordinary selection. If you can think of a better way of doing this, I believe we would be open to it. Originally we did it by showing the edges of the rectangle in solid black, but I think most people who have tried it feel that it is more pleasant to work with using the four little squares. -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
Juhana Sadeharju wrote: In some other editor, the rectangle can be modified only by grabbing the 8 handles located at the corners and at the middle of edges. (That is an unnecessary limitation.) The handles may confuse users if really the grabbing can be done by clicking in anywhere on the edge. (That is the preferred way to do it since the first interactive graphics system was written.) The handles should be removed. The "handles" aren't really handles like they are in many other software packages where you have to grab them to adjust the size of a selection. In 2.3/CVS GIMP, the "handles" are four (yes, only four) tiny squares which appear in the inside corners of the selection. This provides a visual cue that the selection area can be altered. You need this cue since it is easy to toggle a selection between a fixed and alterable state. When a selection is editable you move the cursor near an edge or corner of the selction. When you are close to the edge or corner the cursor changes to indicate that you can move that edge or corner of the selection (once you hold the left-mouse button down and drag that is). I think this is a much easier method of resizing a selection than having to grab one of the 8 little handles that are used in most other programs. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include| -Pinkutus & the Borg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: rectangle select tool specification
>From: "William Skaggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > The (New) Rectangle Select Tool [ ... ] >An important different from the old tool is that the >rectangle you get is modifiable, as indicated by handles at the >corners. You should be able to click on any corner or edge and drag >it -- the cursor should change to indicate when dragging is possible. What the handles do in the tool? In some other editor, the rectangle can be modified only by grabbing the 8 handles located at the corners and at the middle of edges. (That is an unnecessary limitation.) The handles may confuse users if really the grabbing can be done by clicking in anywhere on the edge. (That is the preferred way to do it since the first interactive graphics system was written.) The handles should be removed. Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re : rectangle select tool specification
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 22:51 +0200, cedric GEMY wrote: > may be i misunderstood your actual specification, but when you define > modifiers, i only talk about multiselection modes. What about old > options with Ctrl and Shift that does the same as "Expand from center" > and "Make Square". > In fact it may confuse the user, because these options have to be > checked before the selection is drawn. > I agree with Sven on this : keep the old way, because users are > accustomed to it. I don't think that we absolutely need to continue doing things the old way. Users get accustomed to new behaviour quite fast, as long as it offers everything they need. I agree though that it is important to make "Expand from Center" and "Make Square" more easily accessible. I believe that we need to use modifier keys for this, quite similar to the way the old tools used to work. The old implementation was however rather unintuitive and hard to discover, mainly because pressing the modifiers didn't change the selection immidiately, you had to move the mouse first. This is due to a limitation in the tools code and cannot be fixed in the selection tools alone. It needs some changes to the tools infrastructure. But I think we need to do those changes now, simply because we can't implement a satisfying behaviour without them. Mitch and me discussed this with Peter a while ago and our conclusion was that it makes sense to continue to use the modifier keys pressed when creating the selection to define whether the selection is replaced, added, subtracted or intersected. Then, while creating the selection, the modifier keys can be reused to add constraints such as "expand from center" and "make square". But in order to make this behaviour understandable by the user, it is important that there is immidiate feedback, unlike with the old tools. Pressing Ctrl should immidiately center the selection on the starting point, releasing the modifier key should restore it. Same for the Shift key. If you press it, the selection outline needs to change to a square/circle immidiately. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re : rectangle select tool specification
may be i misunderstood your actual specification, but when you define modifiers, i only talk about multiselection modes. What about old options with Ctrl and Shift that does the same as "Expand from center" and "Make Square". In fact it may confuse the user, because these options have to be checked before the selection is drawn. I agree with Sven on this : keep the old way, because users are accustomed to it. Options like this could be set in an expander for example. An other thing : The last check box of the rectangle* tool is here told as "Tons vifs" and gives a temporary grey color to the area outside the selection square : 1. may be it is a translation trouble, but french words don't seem appropriate to me. 2. why not also having an intermediate grey color between rectangle and ellipse limit, because for the user the ellipse is as important as rectangle reference shape. Cheers Cedric (pygmee) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
