Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[David Gowers]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Michael Natterer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:
>
> > There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
>  > there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
>  > suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
>  > i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
>  > IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
>  > *depend* on them for basic usability.
>
>  To quote from that "Window Manager's" web page:
>
>  "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's
>  pointless to
>   make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist.
>   No novices asking stupid questions."
>
>  I think you just disqualified yourself to say anything about
>  usability here.
That's a straw man. There are many tiling WM's, and only two of them
are written by Anselm Garbe. It's quite common for tiling WMs (eg.
dwm, Ion, wmii, ratpoison,  stumpwm) to not have taskbars, because
they are simply unnecessary when you can see the current windows at a
glance. Mainstream WM's are a window management nightmare -- by which
I mean the user is constantly being called on to manage windows, to
make decisions that could in most instances be made well by the
computer, and the need for a task bar in such WM's just reflects this
basic demand for micromanagement imposed by an overconfigurable
concept of window management. It's not bad that the user can configure
their WM, or even their windows -- they should only rarely be called
on to configure their windows, since it's perfectly possible to treat
the majority of windows in a way that Just Works.

In short -- taskbars save you some of the time that your WM otherwise
calls upon you to waste.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Michael Natterer]

On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:
> There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
> there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
> suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
> i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
> IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
> *depend* on them for basic usability.

To quote from that "Window Manager's" web page:

"Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's
pointless to
 make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist.
 No novices asking stupid questions."

I think you just disqualified yourself to say anything about
usability here.

ciao,
--mitch

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Laxminarayan Kamath]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:
>
>> There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all.

>> IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
>> *depend* on them for basic usability.

> I don't think opening an image per DND counts as basic functionality. If
> you are working on a desktop that doesn't provide basic functionality
> like some sort of taskbar, then you may miss a feature or two. No
> problem as long as you can still open an image somehow.

Completely agree. GIMP need not worry too much about this. If you
still want a place to DND in this situation, you can always write a
simple but separate app that gives just a DND basket like d4x or kget
gives. For whatever is dropped on it, you can always call gimp's
remote.  Heck! you can even make it intelligent and open the app you
want based on different criteria! But that is enough said on GIMP's
list. :-)



-- 
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
(+91) 9945036093
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:

> There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
> there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
> suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
> i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
> IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
> *depend* on them for basic usability.


I don't think opening an image per DND counts as basic functionality. If
you are working on a desktop that doesn't provide basic functionality
like some sort of taskbar, then you may miss a feature or two. No
problem as long as you can still open an image somehow.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[David Gowers]

On Feb 20, 2008 11:07 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  peter sikking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said on Feb 19, 2008 13:46 -0500 (in
> part):
>
>
>  You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
> > as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
> > there?
>
>  I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
> application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
> can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?
>  I have Windows only experience (not Linux or Mac) so maybe I'm missing
> something here ...
>
>  In Windows D'n'D, for a non-visible application works "everywhere" as drag
> to taskbar button which brings that application to foreground. User (still
> w/o releasing mouse button) then drags to to window which has just been
> brought to foreground and releases.
>
>  This works now with current Gimp whether there is an image open or not so
> long as the first bring to foreground is done to the Gimp toolbox window.
>
>  So wrt. remaining question: "where can users d+d files apart from on the
> taskbar icon?" . Why is there any need for anything else? That's how Windows
> user expect ALL applications to behave.
>  Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail

There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
*depend* on them for basic usability.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[buralex]

 peter sikking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said on Feb 19, 2008 13:46 -0500 
(in part):

You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
> as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
> there?



I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?
I have Windows only experience (not Linux or Mac) so maybe I'm missing 
something here ...


In Windows D'n'D, for a non-visible application works "everywhere" as 
drag to taskbar button which brings that application to foreground. User 
(still w/o releasing mouse button) then drags to to window which has 
just been brought to foreground and releases.


This works now with current Gimp whether there is an image open or not 
so long as the first bring to foreground is done to the Gimp toolbox window.


So wrt. remaining question: "where can users d+d files apart from on the 
taskbar icon?" . Why is there any need for anything else? That's how 
Windows user expect ALL applications to behave.


Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
--

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 19:46 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> Just like Sven or Mitch cut the crap when users keep discussing things
> that are technically not possible, I have to cut the crap when we keep
> discussing interaction that simply does not make sense.

OK. As long as the result is something that doesn't look like crap and
also appeals to new and occasional users.

> I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
> application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
> can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?

This sounds a lot like the solution will be a lot more complex than the
intermediate that can be implemented for 2.6. Anything that requires
complex interaction with the window manager might take years to
implement as we would most likely have to push quite some changes into
GTK+ and/or get the EWMH specification changed.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

OK guys,

here comes the moment where I have to cut the crap.

Just like Sven or Mitch cut the crap when users keep discussing things
that are technically not possible, I have to cut the crap when we keep
discussing interaction that simply does not make sense.

That is why I listed the gimmicks at the start of the UI spec:
it has been checked, forget it, over my dead body.

In difficult times like this I always go back to the product vision
and GIMP is an high-end 'pro' app. It is used in an environment with
other applications to get the job (or hobby) done.

If you can see that whole picture, than you can feel where I am going.

I'd rather spend some time now to show in the spec what I mean and
to figure out what happens to the toolbox and inspectors when no
file is open (hmmm, recent files dialog should stay open...).

Sven wrote:

>> "we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe
>> usability problem"
>>
>> who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.
>
> You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
> as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
> there?

I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?

I am thinking about that.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-18 at 14:54 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> Our core users are people who know what they are doing.
> They do not need 'help'.

Yes, they do. This dialog is the first thing people see when starting
GIMP. And a large fraction of our users are beginners. So we have a good
chance hear to give them a helping hand. If we don't do that, this will
most likely be the last time they ever used GIMP.

> "we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe  
> usability problem"
> 
> who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.

You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
there? That looks like a severe usability problem to me and I don't
think we need run any tests to see this.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-18 at 12:21 +0100, Tobias Jakobs wrote:

> You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
> a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
> the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
> carefully than Krita.

I don't know the Krita start dialog, but I have seen the mockup that
Guillermo has drawn and it doesn't seem to yell at me. Perhaps it could
benefit from a little less content, but overall it looks like a very
nice mockup and it provides exactly the functionality that the user
needs at this point.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

I only have time to write a quick note, so here we go:

Yes, focus on the 'yelling kid' to imagine what kind of interaction
avoid.

Our core users are people who know what they are doing.
They do not need 'help'. GIMP has to avoid trying to be
the boy scout helping the grandma across the busy street,
against their will.

also for you folks to focus on (to understand why I am designing
the solution in this way) is that as soon the last image is closed,
GIMP play from that moment a role in _the_whole_desktop_environment_.

That period can last 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day,
while our users are concentrating on other things.

So we have to be humble but ready for the next action users want
to undertake with GIMP when _they_ want.

avoiding visual clutter is the name of the game here.

Tobias wrote:

>>> Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there
>> Yeah, I would also like to know that.
>>
> I thin peter explained i in one of the first mails:
>
> "the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some
> kid yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): "that was fun, what  
> are we
> going to do now... I mean now... really now!" "
>
> You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
> a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
> the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
> carefully than Krita.

very well said Tobias, and I am exploring that.

>>> And finally... a "drag here" sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.
>>
>> Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this  
>> window as a
>> DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop  
>> images when
>> there is already an image opened?

"we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe  
usability problem"

who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.

> If you see the window as a DND target has a severe usability problem
> every other thing in this window will have the same problem after
> opening the first image. This puts us back to an empty window without
> any functionality. And that doesn't sounds like a good solution, too.
>
> I've made some mock-ups and I like nr. 5c (with common tasks, like Gez
> one) and nr. 6 (DND area). I definitive don't like the nr. 4 (without
> any functionality). But this is just the look and not the feel.
> http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/5c.png
> http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
> http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/4.png

It is nr.6 that I am developing further. Tobias, thanks for making
the mock-ups.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Tobias Jakobs]

On Feb 18, 2008 8:27 AM, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 2008-02-17 at 05:13 -0200, Guillermo Espertino wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there
>
> Yeah, I would also like to know that.
>
I thin peter explained i in one of the first mails:

"the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some
kid yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): "that was fun, what are we
going to do now... I mean now... really now!" "

You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
carefully than Krita.


> > And finally... a "drag here" sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.
>
> Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this window as a
> DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop images when
> there is already an image opened?
>

 If you see the window as a DND target has a severe usability problem
every other thing in this window will have the same problem after
opening the first image. This puts us back to an empty window without
any functionality. And that doesn't sounds like a good solution, too.

I've made some mock-ups and I like nr. 5c (with common tasks, like Gez
one) and nr. 6 (DND area). I definitive don't like the nr. 4 (without
any functionality). But this is just the look and not the feel.
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/5c.png
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/4.png

Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Sun, 2008-02-17 at 05:13 -0200, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

> Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there 

Yeah, I would also like to know that.

> And finally... a "drag here" sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.

Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this window as a
DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop images when
there is already an image opened?


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Guillermo Espertino]

Oh... the "no gimmicks" thing.
Nevermind then...

Gez.

Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there 
(apart of the usual "it sucks").
"Create a new image", "open an existing image" and "open a recent file" 
are the first things people do with gimp. So why not?
I use drag and drop to open files, but I wouldn't put "new image" and 
"open recent" as secondary commands, available only via a menu. Those 
three actions share the same hierarchy, imo.

And finally... a "drag here" sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Guillermo Espertino]

Sorry if I'm too late with this reply, but I just came back from my 
vacations.
A couple of months ago I studied this issue and proposed a mockup of an 
introductory window for using when no image is open. 
http://www.blog.ohweb.com.ar/?p=59
Sven explained some of the technical problems of this approach, but 
since the discussion is opened again and there are new ideas, I'd like 
to bring this mockup back for your consideration. I hope you find 
something useful in it.

Regards,
Gez.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Liam R E Quin]

On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 19:12 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
> Tobias Jakobs wrote:
> 
> > I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
> > http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

[...]

> I have been moving in the same direction in the last days.
> 
> If the main function of the window 'body' under the menu bar
> is to have a nice size drag + drop area, let's on its look + feel
> for that. As for the size of this window: just wide enough to fit
> the menubar for the running localisation,height of the window,
> 1/4 or 1/3rd of the width, some nice proportion.

Perhaps it could contain an icon for each active image, so that
left-clicking on the image would bring the image window and any
associated pallettes or whatever to the front, and right-clicking
(or the reverse for left-handed people) would give an image-specifc
context menu as one would expect, either with "close, save a copy,
save as, revert, properties" or the same menu as clicking on the image.

If you make the area useful (drop an image...) and then when the image
is dropped, that area and message are replaced by the image, it's no
longer clear how to open a second image.  The obvious way would be to
drop it in the same place, but that wouldn't work, it would add a layer.

So then you need a visible drop target...

One solution would be that opening an image makes also a new empty image
window to drop things in but that's absurd.

Another (better I think) would be to have a drop target pallette
area/window, that could be docked.

None of this really helps the "window with no image for beginners"
question though.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
> 

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[M Gagnon]

>> I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
>> http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
>>
>> In the center of the area I've added a simpel text "Drop Images  
>> here to
>> open them." (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
>> 
I really like this image. I think what could make it really good is 
adding to it a toolbar with "new" and "open" buttons at its top. I 
understand Peter when he says having the "new image" and "open document" 
displayed prominently can get annoying, however having it as icons in a 
toolbar like in most applications do would be a good compromise in my 
opinion
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

Tobias Jakobs wrote:

> I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
> http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
>
> In the center of the area I've added a simpel text "Drop Images  
> here to
> open them." (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)

I have been moving in the same direction in the last days.

If the main function of the window 'body' under the menu bar
is to have a nice size drag + drop area, let's on its look + feel
for that. As for the size of this window: just wide enough to fit
the menubar for the running localisation,height of the window,
1/4 or 1/3rd of the width, some nice proportion.

Forget about the slider, please. It belonged to another strategy,
another time, another place...

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[David Gowers]

Hi Tobias,

I like the simple, functional design of this. Do you know, has what
the toolbox would become, already been resolved? I notice this does
not seem to concern people presently.

On Feb 8, 2008 9:01 AM, Tobias Jakobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2008, 11:26 +0100 schrieb peter sikking:
> > GIMPsters,
> >
> > Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
> > I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
> > list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
> > sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
> > already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
> > plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
> > drawing any attention to it.
> >
> I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
> http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
>
> The idea is to use a simple radial gradient from the upper left corner
> to the lower right. (This should be switched for RTL languages.)
>
> The gradient colours are calculated from the "selected forecolour" from
> the GTK theme. This way it fits nicely into every desktop environment.
>
> In the center of the area I've added a simpel text "Drop Images here to
> open them." (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
> This is NOT the "Tip of the Day" and should NOT change.
> The colour of the text is the brightest colour from the gradient. This
> will give us a nice contrast and it will fit to the theme colours.
>
> > >> the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to
> > >> seamlessly
> > >> track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
> > >> worth gold in user interaction.
> > >
> > > Would you please care to explain this?
> >
> > I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted
> > out.
> > Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...
> >
> I don't get you slider idea. But if you think about a small timewaster
> what do you think about adding a colour slider to my mock-up?
>
> Regards,
> Tobias
>
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Tobias Jakobs]

Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2008, 11:26 +0100 schrieb peter sikking:
> GIMPsters,
> 
> Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
> I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
> list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
> sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
> already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
> plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
> drawing any attention to it.
> 
I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

The idea is to use a simple radial gradient from the upper left corner 
to the lower right. (This should be switched for RTL languages.)

The gradient colours are calculated from the "selected forecolour" from
the GTK theme. This way it fits nicely into every desktop environment.

In the center of the area I've added a simpel text "Drop Images here to
open them." (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
This is NOT the "Tip of the Day" and should NOT change.
The colour of the text is the brightest colour from the gradient. This
will give us a nice contrast and it will fit to the theme colours.

> >> the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to  
> >> seamlessly
> >> track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
> >> worth gold in user interaction.
> >
> > Would you please care to explain this?
> 
> I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted  
> out.
> Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...
> 
I don't get you slider idea. But if you think about a small timewaster
what do you think about adding a colour slider to my mock-up?

Regards,
Tobias

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 12:07 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> > in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
> > make GTK+ widgets translucent.
> 
> Are you 100% sure?
> 
> http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-widgets/

Yes, I am. What your links shows is something entirely different.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[David Gowers]

Alexandre,

What Peter describes does not involve transparent windows.
I agree it does not seem useful, in sense of literal opacity.. Rather,
 a waterlevel-type adjustment could suit this idea better..with
 widgets appearing or disappearing according to whether they are
above waterlevel. It's important in this case that disappearance or
appearance should not change widget positions or sizes-- the widgets
should not be repacked after the initial packing..

(well, we could consider, if needed, more specific instances of a
general kind of action that could, at one level, have a widget for the
general operation, and then as the waterlevel drops, be replaced in
the same space by several widgets that are the more specific
instances.)

On Feb 5, 2008 9:17 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 2008 1:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:
>
> > >> And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
> > > Are you 100% sure?
> > >
> > > http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
> > > widgets/
> >
> > that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
> > how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...
>
> Murrine's developer writes in his blog: "Then you need... a composite
> capable window-manager, like Compiz, future Metacity etc etc…"
>
> I'm not quite sure about usefulness of transparence in a graphics
> editor (unless it's transparence of layers/selections/objects in a
> drawing). Sounds like distraction to me (and yes - I remember your
> argument on Aperture :-))
>
> Alexandre
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Feb 5, 2008 1:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

> >> And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
> > Are you 100% sure?
> >
> > http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
> > widgets/
>
> that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
> how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...

Murrine's developer writes in his blog: "Then you need... a composite
capable window-manager, like Compiz, future Metacity etc etc…"

I'm not quite sure about usefulness of transparence in a graphics
editor (unless it's transparence of layers/selections/objects in a
drawing). Sounds like distraction to me (and yes - I remember your
argument on Aperture :-))

Alexandre
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Alexander Rabtchevich]

peter sikking wrote:
> Alexandre wrote:
>
>>> And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
>>>
>> Are you 100% sure?
>>
>> http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
>> widgets/
>>  
>
> that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
> how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...
>
>
Sorry, but what is the use case for transparent image window? It is 
rather contrary to the idea of the dark room. The only thing I can 
imagine is a "lazy" :) user who doesn't want to make a screenshot of a 
window of some other program and put it to a new lower layer to be used 
as some base background.

-- 
With respect
Alexander Rabtchevich

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

GIMPsters,

I am very busy, so I am going to weed out the actual contributions of
y'all and respond to that:

Sven wrote:

> We absolutely need to find a solution here that works for everyone.

very well said. that's why the gimmicks section is in the spec.

Thorsten raised a good point about the actual geometry of the
'no image' window. Of course this window is a nice drag and drop
target for all those workflows that go to other apps of filebrowsers
to open the next file or files. SO window not to small, not too
obnoxious. Got me thinking again about always going to the minimal
size when last image is closed. cool.

Thorsten wrote:

> The opposite side of "what are we going to do now" would be "see  
> how you

> get along, I will not raise a finger to help you".

Hmmm, menu commands, drag and drop on window and taskbar icon, menu
shortcuts. A nice size window to find back in the window stack.

saul wrote:

> The "no image window" should have a status line, as this provides
> useful feedback with regard to the hover-over hints of the menu
> commands.

Good point. But then I realised which menu items would be available  
at all.
Still thinking about this one.

Bill wrote:

> If the user closes the final image by clicking the "X" in
> the upper right corner of the window, we must close that window or we
> violate a fundamental rule of window handling.

Another good point to think about carefully. I evaluated both  
possibilities
and in my minds eye leaving the window open is more elegant,
less rupture.

Sven wrote:

>> I am talking about
>> making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
>> rocket science for GIMP...
>
> Even if this was possible, I still fail to see why this would be  
> useful.
> To be honest, I am completely baffled to hear such a thing proposed  
> from
> a user interface professional. What exactly, except for eye candy, is
> the purpose of this?

Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
drawing any attention to it.

Seriously, I would like to hear contributions here what to do
(read the gimmick list first:
)

>> the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to  
>> seamlessly
>> track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
>> worth gold in user interaction.
>
> Would you please care to explain this?

I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted  
out.
Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...

Alexandre wrote:
>> And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
> Are you 100% sure?
>
> http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent- 
> widgets/

that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Feb 4, 2008 11:14 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

> in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
> make GTK+ widgets translucent.

Are you 100% sure?

http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-widgets/

Alexandre
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:48 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> just to clarify: are you assuming that the whole window will become
> transparent and the desktop shines through?

No. That would be implementable as there's GTK+ API to do that (though
not supported on all platforms).

> I am talking about
> making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
> rocket science for GIMP...

There's no GTK+ API to do this (yet). Of course if all we have in the
window is a background image, then we could make the window background
shine through. But I still assume that we will have some useful content
in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
make GTK+ widgets translucent.

Even if this was possible, I still fail to see why this would be useful.
To be honest, I am completely baffled to hear such a thing proposed from
a user interface professional. What exactly, except for eye candy, is
the purpose of this?

> the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
> track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
> worth gold in user interaction.

Would you please care to explain this?


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Bill Skaggs]

Actually, if  "plug-in" means something like a fill pattern that could
be user-specified in the same way as the splash screen, I think it
would be possible to implement everything Peter has specified here --
including the opacity slider -- using the "scratch image" framework
I've been experimenting with.

There is one aspect of this specification that seems problematic to
me, though.  If the user closes the final image by clicking the "X" in
the upper right corner of the window, we must close that window or we
violate a fundamental rule of window handling.  We can create a new
window if we feel the need to, but we must close the original window.

  -- Bill
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[saulgoode]

The "no image window" should have a status line, as this provides  
useful feedback with regard to the hover-over hints of the menu  
commands.







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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Alchemie foto\grafiche]

I get the sensation that often most trivial solution are overlooked, only 
because are trivial, even if simple things often work better

Users, ( i state as users not as expert of usability) just are used to see 
graphic sw open with a image windows...i don't thing they will appreciate a 
special image windows with sliders or peculiar setting.

They will appreciate something trivial as gimp opening with a image windows, 
inside simply a new image,color white, type RGBA, of a default size (something 
as 600x600 should fit, aside to the toolbox in most of computer screen 
,included little as 800x600)

That and , for the first time only, a dialog popped up prompting

1 to accept that size
or
1 to reset that default size as from users wish


OR

3 instead then a blank image start with the last image opened

And a short info at end of dialogif the user want change again that 
default, he may do from Toolbox/preference.

That in my opinion and experience as users will solve at best

Honestly i can't image any advantage, or anything useful, or even "funny" in 
that proposed  additional Transparency slider .

On the contrary i see a related usability problem, if something as that will be 
done:

Users will think that the slider effect may is also rendered in the saved image

More if they will forget to reset the slider, they will be easy misleaded.by a 
effect that is visible, but will be never rendered, (if not by a screenshoot)


Alchemie Foto\grafiche
   
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:48 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
> track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
> worth gold in user interaction.

You seem to assume that
- users will adjust the slider repeatedly
- this adjustment somehow reflects their mood (not just lighting
conditions from day to night or whatever)

I mean to recall that the product vision stresses serious, professional
level work. I don't see how playing with such a slider is compatible
with a getting-stuff-done mentality. I very strongly doubt that users
would adjust it repeatedly, anyway.

Then, even if they do: what does it tell us about their mood and what
would we do with that information?


> the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like
> some  
> kid
> yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): "that was fun, what are we  
> going
> to do now... I mean now... really now!"
> 
> as long as we understand that, you will be able to understand the
> crucial decisions that I take here.

I fail to see how a full size window that is basically empty regarding
its informational and interaction aspects could be a good thing. It
manages to cover part of the desktop or other windows and distracts from
the then only useful bit, the menu. Seen this way, your wallpaper window
would yell, too, but it'd be: "BLAH!"

The opposite side of "what are we going to do now" would be "see how you
get along, I will not raise a finger to help you".


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

Sven wrote:

> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
>
>> and oh, note that the slider to set the alpha of what goes on in that
>> window will be there anyway...
>
> This is not currently implementable, so I would rather not base the  
> spec
> on this opacity slider.

just to clarify: are you assuming that the whole window will become
transparent and the desktop shines through? I am talking about
making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
rocket science for GIMP...

> I also very much wonder why the window should have something as  
> useless
> as a slider to control the visual appearance

the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
worth gold in user interaction.

> but lack any useful widgets
> to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do  
> next.
> What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
> image dialog?

the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some  
kid
yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): "that was fun, what are we  
going
to do now... I mean now... really now!"

as long as we understand that, you will be able to understand the
crucial decisions that I take here.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 09:01 +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:

> I also very much wonder why the window should have something as useless
> as a slider to control the visual appearance but lack any useful widgets
> to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do next.
> What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
> image dialog?

Same here.

I think such a slider would be a waste of both developer and user time
(a _million_ users wondering: ooh, what does this slider do? ... to
never touch it again ;)

Reasons against having Recent/New in the window:
- "visual noise"
- both are in the file menu already and duplication would lessen
consistency in interaction / work against habituation.

But then I would prefer a window as narrow as possible, not much more
than just a title and a menu bar. Any image would get old soon and
putting effort into exchanging it frequently would be wasted.

Reasons for having Recent/New in the window:
- fast access to the only 2 things a user might want to do (well,
there's also accessing preferences)
- avoiding a mostly empty window which will trigger uncountable
complaints through all eternity ;)

The audio application Ardour has a startup dialog with New and Open
Recent tabs. The dialog has its issues, but feels very useful. I never
use a file manager to open a project there. For GIMP, it should be
possible to have New and Recent side by side.


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> 4) a plugin system for this window; we ship a standard, good one like
> above. If somebody really insists he or she wants to see a file
> open dialog every time or the 10 last edited pictures (both not very
> good ideas to force upon one million users) then let them write a plugin
> to do that.

We certainly don't have so much developer time at hand to design,
implement and maintain a plug-in system to add gimmicks to this window.
We absolutely need to find a solution here that works for everyone.
Delegating this question to a plug-in system is not going to work here.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

> and oh, note that the slider to set the alpha of what goes on in that
> window will be there anyway...

This is not currently implementable, so I would rather not base the spec
on this opacity slider.

I also very much wonder why the window should have something as useless
as a slider to control the visual appearance but lack any useful widgets
to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do next.
What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
image dialog?


Sven


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[Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

[peter sikking]

Sven wrote:

> Merge toolbox and image menus
>
>It would be very nice if we could get this done for 2.6. It  
> would be
>a major user-visible change and as such it would give a clear sign
>that GIMP is moving. What's needed here is a mockup that shows how
>GIMP should look like with no image window open. And a  
> specification
>that tells us what should happen when the first image is opened,  
> what
>happens for the second image, what happens when the last image is
>closed.


Purely due to the infectious enthusiasm of Martin on the irc,
I have given that a start:



so far so good.

After having defined what definitely not should be in that window,
the question remains what actually can.

I think now that the tip-of-the-day idea can get really old really fast,
even if the tips are super and exactly what you need. To see them
10–100 times a day is too much, even though I do build in a slider to
set the alpha of the whole tip thing.

So after rereading the section in the spec about no gimmicks (please  
do):



here are some ideas I have for this window:

1) one of our designers (jimmac, garrett) makes a really nice, soothing,
non-distracting, GIMP value improving wallpaper to show there;

2) like 1), but we ship with a whole series; GIMP shuffles through the
series, shows a different one every time;

3) we have a repository of really nice, soothing, non-distracting, GIMP
value improving wallpapers on gimp.org. When internet-connected, GIMP  
gets
some new ones from the repository, ditches some others, shuffles like  
in 2).
Users contribute new wallpapers, we weed out the crap.

The 3 ideas above add a joy-of-use component to GIMP, not a gimmick.

Another fundamental idea is:

4) a plugin system for this window; we ship a standard, good one like
above. If somebody really insists he or she wants to see a file
open dialog every time or the 10 last edited pictures (both not very
good ideas to force upon one million users) then let them write a plugin
to do that.

and oh, note that the slider to set the alpha of what goes on in that
window will be there anyway...

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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