Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Michael Schumacher
Carol Spears wrote:

 On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 01:27:40AM +, Eric Pierce wrote:

  Implementing the import/export of a dynamic text layer from psd would 
  be a nice addition though.

 someone just needs to do this, and i think that someone said that they
 could do this -- someone needs to just take the time to do it.

IIRC, one of the prerequisites for this is an API for text layers.
Currently, all you can do is to add text in a new layer or a new floating
selection.

The API should provide such things as getting/setting the font, text, the
dimensions of the text layer, alignment, justification, ... 
This list doesn't claim to be accurate or comprehensive, but you get the
idea.

I don't know if anything has already been done to CVSHEAD regarding this.

HTH,
Michael

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Simon Budig
Gregbair ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Anyway, Fireworks can import PSD files with the text layers.  I'm 101%
 positive Adobe didn't tell Macromedia how to do this, so if Fireworks
 can, maybe some smart GIMP person can.

I am pretty sure, that Macromedia licensed the current PSD specification
from Adobe. They can afford to sign a NDA and it is probably relatively
cheap compared to the efforts to reverse engineer it.

Bye,
Simon
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread David Neary
Hi Greg,

Gregbair wrote:
 And, no they don't publish the extensions.  Anyway, Fireworks can import PSD
 files with the text layers.  I'm 101% positive Adobe didn't tell Macromedia
 how to do this, so if Fireworks can, maybe some smart GIMP person can.

It's not quite that straightforward. Presumably, MM used Adobe's
SDK for PSDs, which includes the specs of the file format. Up
until PS 6 these were available free. Since then, there is a
licence agreement to sign which is very unfriendly to free
software. This is a bit of a problem for the GIMP.

Cheers,
Dave.

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Lyon, France
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Duncan Lithgow
 I am pretty sure, that Macromedia licensed the current PSD specification
 from Adobe. They can afford to sign a NDA and it is probably relatively
 cheap compared to the efforts to reverse engineer it.

 Bye,
 Simon

Just thought I'd mention that Autodesk bought Macromedia - and Autodesk has a 
long history of being uncooperative in releaseing a useful descriptino of 
their AutoCAD .dwg or .dxf filetype. For more on 3d / 2d filetypes in open 
source look at blender3d.com and:
http://www.opendesign.com/about/whtpaper/whynot.htm

Duncan
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Jakub Steiner
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 03:08 +0100, Simon Budig wrote:
Eric Pierce ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[MM Fireworks]
 He told me that the default file format is png!  I called him a bold
 faced lier, but he swears up and down that png is the default format.
 I asked him about layers, and he said the pngs that Fireworks saves
 can DO LAYERS.  I haven't seen it firsthand... is there any truth to
 this!?

PNG can handle custom application specific chunks of data, so it is
perfectly possible that Fireworks uses custom data blocks, not specified
in the PNG standard. I have no idea if MM published these extensions,
but a PNG file just using the standard chunks cannot handle multiple
layers.

This actually sounds very interesting. I really like the way Inkscape's
native format uses the SVG with some extensions to store similar extra
attributes of the image, yet it's correctly parsed and rendered by any
SVG renderer. 

Having to deal with maintaining thousands of icons in XCF  exported
PNGs makes it sound like a good approach. On the other hand, it could be
too bloated to be used as the final output format. Interesteing idea
though.

cheers

-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Novell, Inc.

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Jeffrey McBeth
Quoting Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 03:08 +0100, Simon Budig wrote:
Eric Pierce ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[MM Fireworks]
He told me that the default file format is png!  I called him a bold
faced lier, but he swears up and down that png is the default format.
I asked him about layers, and he said the pngs that Fireworks saves
can DO LAYERS.  I haven't seen it firsthand... is there any truth to
this!?
PNG can handle custom application specific chunks of data, so it is
perfectly possible that Fireworks uses custom data blocks, not specified
in the PNG standard. I have no idea if MM published these extensions,
but a PNG file just using the standard chunks cannot handle multiple
layers.
This actually sounds very interesting. I really like the way Inkscape's
native format uses the SVG with some extensions to store similar extra
attributes of the image, yet it's correctly parsed and rendered by any
SVG renderer.
Copied from Firework's online manual...
In addition to supporting PNG as an output format, Fireworks actually uses PNG
as its native file format for day-to-day intermediate saves. This is possible
thanks to PNG's extensible ``chunk-based'' design, which allows programs to
incorporate application-specific data in a well-defined way. Macromedia has
embraced this capability, defining at least four custom chunk types that hold
various things pertinent to the editor. Unfortunately, one of them (pRVW)
violates the PNG naming rules by claiming to be an officially registered,
public chunk type, but this was an oversight and should be fixed in version
2.0.

This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-10 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Michael Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 IIRC, one of the prerequisites for this is an API for text layers.
 Currently, all you can do is to add text in a new layer or a new floating
 selection.

Right. The PSD plug-in would have to be able to create a text layer
based on the information read from the PSD file. The current PDB API
for text layers is too limited for anything but very simple layers.

 The API should provide such things as getting/setting the font,
 text, the dimensions of the text layer, alignment, justification,
 ...  This list doesn't claim to be accurate or comprehensive, but
 you get the idea.

 I don't know if anything has already been done to CVSHEAD regarding
 this.

No, but it's on the list of things that we would like to have for GIMP
2.4. That doesn't mean that it will necessarily be there. What's
needed most at the moment is a list of functionality that is needed.
We could then try to design an API based on our needs. The
implemenration will probably not be too difficult.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Jakub Steiner
On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 20:03 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

 while i have no idea what the developers are doing, either as a group or
 individually (it is always just a guess about everything and anything,
 not just gimp stuff), i always thought that they kept the ability to
 read psd to a minimum to force people away from stealing and using
 photoshop.  it would make sense if you look at it like a war.

I'd say quite contrary. Giving the abilkity to read PSD will make it
possible for people to convert their old work and give them a way to
escape.

 THEN i spent a week following things on #gimp some.  there was lots of
 talk and exchange of facts about the gimp raw plug-in.  i haven't seen
 anything here about the raw plug-in, but i did see that Adobe has
 released an updated raw thing themselves.
 
 all this stuff, and i just got to sit back and ask myself, whatsup?
 
 Jakub, do you know whatsup with all this?

As for the raw format (DG, Digital Negative), Adobe did the right thing
and published the spec. [1] 

 
[1] - http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/main.html,
http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/license.html
-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Alan Horkan

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Carol Spears wrote:

 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:03:30 -0800
 From: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED],
  GIMPUser Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:40:13AM +0100, Jakub Steiner wrote:
  On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 11:13 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:
   On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 01:26:49PM +0100, Jakub Steiner wrote:
   
In many cases people just want to convert their old work. They don't use
proprietary formats by ignorance, but simply because of a lack of option
and lock-in of their software.

   define lock-in please.
 
  Lock-in as in f*ck I'm screwed now i have to use Adobe products to have
  access to all my work.

 everyone has their own things that lock them into something and out of
 other things.

 while i have no idea what the developers are doing, either as a group or
 individually (it is always just a guess about everything and anything,
 not just gimp stuff), i always thought that they kept the ability to
 read psd to a minimum to force people away from stealing and using
 photoshop.  it would make sense if you look at it like a war.

If anything being able read PSD files makes it easier to move files away
from Adobe Photoshop and into the GIMP.

I think the ability to write good PSD files would do more to keep users
from working with both the GIMP and Adobe Photoshop but I never believe
the developers would deliberately keep functionality to a minimum.  I
would have thought that developers rather choose to work on the many other
challenges that interested them more instead and because the lack of
specifications from Adobe made the job a lot more difficult.

 people who save their work in psd must be 1) secure that their place of
 employment will always use photoshop and computers that run it or

PSD files are understood by Paint Shop Pro and most most other graphics
software because Adobe did provide some specifications for a while and
even if they do not provide the same kind of information for the latest
versions of PSD they are dominant enough that others have made an effort
to provide some compatibility.  If you want to share files with users of
other graphics software (besides the gimp) without flattening the image
then PSD is the most obvious choice for sharing Layered images (MNG isn't
widely supported yet and if there are other good choices they are not as
obvious as PSD).

 2) fairly certain they will always be able to afford it or steal it.
 photoshop has done its part in the world to continually demand that
 everyone purchase bigger and better computers with each new release;
 everyone counts on things that i have found to be not dependable.

Adobe Photoshop Elements is not as extortionately priced as the full
commercial version of Adobe Photoshop, apparantly the older verison is
even bundled with some digital cameras.  Cheap versions of Photoshop can
be legally obtained, I expect I could pick up a second hand copy of
Photoshop 6 quite cheaply (the university I attend has some copies of PS6
on special machines).  For the ordinary users that doesn't understand
or care about Free Software that isn't such a bad deal.
But my point is that with PS Elements and cheap older versions there are
probably more legitamate Photoshop users than ever.

 i get upset with the independent groups.  i cannot remember the graphic
 but someone appeared on #gimp with a psd for an event that was sponsored
 by a group that was supposed to be all for freedom (it was anti-music or
 anti-copyright, iirc).

I'm surprised they didn't flatten the image to a PNG file but there really
isn't that much choice if you want to preserve layers in a format that a
wide range of applications will be able to understand.

 THEN i spent a week following things on #gimp some.  there was lots of
 talk and exchange of facts about the gimp raw plug-in.  i haven't seen
 anything here about the raw plug-in, but i did see that Adobe has
 released an updated raw thing themselves.

 all this stuff, and i just got to sit back and ask myself, whatsup?

- Alan H.








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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Carol Spears
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 05:15:36PM +0100, Jakub Steiner wrote:
 On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 20:03 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:
 
  while i have no idea what the developers are doing, either as a group or
  individually (it is always just a guess about everything and anything,
  not just gimp stuff), i always thought that they kept the ability to
  read psd to a minimum to force people away from stealing and using
  photoshop.  it would make sense if you look at it like a war.
 
 I'd say quite contrary. Giving the abilkity to read PSD will make it
 possible for people to convert their old work and give them a way to
 escape.
 
heh, weird.  usually i am the optimistic one.   :)

  THEN i spent a week following things on #gimp some.  there was lots of
  talk and exchange of facts about the gimp raw plug-in.  i haven't seen
  anything here about the raw plug-in, but i did see that Adobe has
  released an updated raw thing themselves.
  
  all this stuff, and i just got to sit back and ask myself, whatsup?
  
  Jakub, do you know whatsup with all this?
 
 As for the raw format (DG, Digital Negative), Adobe did the right thing
 and published the spec. [1] 
 
  
 [1] - http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/main.html,
 http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/license.html
 
okay, that is cool.  better to have an enemy who is somewhat healthy and
plays fair!

carol

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
Hi.

So.

TIFF format can have layers, and that is documented (although just 
using the 'normal' blending mode).

Can Photoshop work with layered TIFF's?

I think the support for layers in TIFFs is a lot easier to achieve 
than trying to figure out the PSD file, since the TIFF standard is 
documented, and that would be a good format for interchange of 
layered images.

What do you say?

JS
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Eric Pierce
One of the admins at my work purportedly uses Macormedia's Fireworks for raster 
image editing.

He told me that the default file format is png!  I called him a bold faced 
lier, but he swears up and down that png is the default format.  I asked him 
about layers, and he said the pngs that Fireworks saves can DO LAYERS.  I 
haven't seen it firsthand... is there any truth to this!?

And getting back to an earlier debate (file format 'lock-in' / divide and 
conquer), I've read somewhere that MS Word stole the word processing scene back 
in the day by:
1) implementing a damn near perfect WordPerfect (word pro leader at the time?) 
import filter but (in)conveniently lacked any WordPerfect output filter.
2) offering Word inexpensively

For what it's worth, I think the Gimp would excel and enlighten if it had the 
best psd import AND export filter as possible.  But I've learned to live with 
the current state of the psd filter at work.  I use Gimp for 95% of my work 
(web devel/print work), and the main print guy uses PS for everything.  The 
times when our work overlaps, I can conveniently save to psd for him from the 
Gimp if layers are an issue, and that has been a decent working solution for 
the 2+ years I've been at my current employment.

Implementing the import/export of a dynamic text layer from psd would be a nice 
addition though.

Eric P.

On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:10:14PM -0200, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote:
 Hi.
 
 So.
 
 TIFF format can have layers, and that is documented (although just 
 using the 'normal' blending mode).
 
 Can Photoshop work with layered TIFF's?
 
 I think the support for layers in TIFFs is a lot easier to achieve 
 than trying to figure out the PSD file, since the TIFF standard is 
 documented, and that would be a good format for interchange of 
 layered images.
 
 What do you say?
 
   JS
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Simon Budig
Eric Pierce ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[MM Fireworks]
 He told me that the default file format is png!  I called him a bold
 faced lier, but he swears up and down that png is the default format.
 I asked him about layers, and he said the pngs that Fireworks saves
 can DO LAYERS.  I haven't seen it firsthand... is there any truth to
 this!?

PNG can handle custom application specific chunks of data, so it is
perfectly possible that Fireworks uses custom data blocks, not specified
in the PNG standard. I have no idea if MM published these extensions,
but a PNG file just using the standard chunks cannot handle multiple
layers.

Bye,
Simon
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RE: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-09 Thread Gregbair
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
 Of Simon Budig
 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:09 PM
 To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

 PNG can handle custom application specific chunks of data, so 
 it is perfectly possible that Fireworks uses custom data 
 blocks, not specified in the PNG standard. I have no idea if 
 MM published these extensions, but a PNG file just using the 
 standard chunks cannot handle multiple layers.
 

http://www.macromedia.com/support/fireworks/export/fw_export_vs_sav/fw_expor
t_vs_sav02.html

And, no they don't publish the extensions.  Anyway, Fireworks can import PSD
files with the text layers.  I'm 101% positive Adobe didn't tell Macromedia
how to do this, so if Fireworks can, maybe some smart GIMP person can.

HTH,

Greg

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Jakub Steiner
On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 19:41 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

 there are differences between the native photoshop files and the native
 gimp files.  gimp can handle different sized layers and other things.

I'm not too certain Photoshop doesn't. In fact, I believe Photoshop
simply doesn't expose the fact to the interface and resizes layers on
demand.

 gimp cannot read psd text information as editable, it reads it only as a
 painted layer; at least to the best of my knowledge.
 
 it would be nice if everyone would stop making psd files since not
 everyone can use psd.

In many cases people just want to convert their old work. They don't use
proprietary formats by ignorance, but simply because of a lack of option
and lock-in of their software.

cheers

-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Novell, Inc.

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Michael Schumacher
Jakub Steiner wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 19:41 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

  it would be nice if everyone would stop making psd files since not
  everyone can use psd.
 
 In many cases people just want to convert their old work. They don't use
 proprietary formats by ignorance, but simply because of a lack of option
 and lock-in of their software.

You could also argue that you're similarily locked in when using XCF... at
least on systems where you can't install the GIMP.


Michael

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Geoffrey
Michael Schumacher wrote:
Jakub Steiner wrote:

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 19:41 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

it would be nice if everyone would stop making psd files since not
everyone can use psd.
In many cases people just want to convert their old work. They don't use
proprietary formats by ignorance, but simply because of a lack of option
and lock-in of their software.

You could also argue that you're similarily locked in when using XCF... at
least on systems where you can't install the GIMP.
Is the XCF format proprietary?  If not, then this is not a valid comparison.
--
Until later, Geoffrey
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Dave Neary

Hi,

Selon Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Michael Schumacher wrote:
  You could also argue that you're similarily locked in when using XCF... at
  least on systems where you can't install the GIMP.

 Is the XCF format proprietary?  If not, then this is not a valid comparison.

It's not proprietary, in the sense that the information needed to read/write it
is publically available, however it's an internal GIMP format, and in the past
people have been asked not to support reading XCFs, since the format might
change radically, and without notice, if the needs of the GIMP dictated it
(they didn't always agree though - ImageMagick can read XCFs).

Cheers,
Dave.

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Lyon, France
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Michael Schumacher
Dave Neary wrote:

[...]
 ImageMagick can read XCFs).

More or less, I heard. Often less.


Michael

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-08 Thread Alan Horkan

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jakub Steiner wrote:

 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:26:49 +0100
 From: Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: GIMPUser Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu,
  Enesha Fairluck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

 On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 19:41 -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

  there are differences between the native photoshop files and the native
  gimp files.  gimp can handle different sized layers and other things.

 I'm not too certain Photoshop doesn't. In fact, I believe Photoshop
 simply doesn't expose the fact to the interface and resizes layers on
 demand.

From my observation that is what it does alright.

  gimp cannot read psd text information as editable, it reads it only as a
  painted layer; at least to the best of my knowledge.

Importing PSD Text layers as text isn't supported yet.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151686

  it would be nice if everyone would stop making psd files since not
  everyone can use psd.

PSD may not be a properly open standard but if you want to swap files with
other graphics applications and still keep your layers it is the best
option at the moment because lots of applications do understand PSD.

Hopefully MNG or something like it will become more popular for sharing
layered graphics in future but for now PSD is firmly entrenched.

 In many cases people just want to convert their old work.

or they downloaded tutorials and samples from the web that were in PSD
format

 They don't use proprietary formats by ignorance, but simply because of a
 lack of option and lock-in of their software.

Very True.

- Alan H
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[Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-07 Thread Enesha Fairluck
Good evening all,
   I am having some trouble, and I hope someone out there can help 
me:)  I have a .psd template that I got from someone on the net.  I 
tried opening it in the gimp 2.0 running on mandrake 10.1 and the file 
opens, and the layers are there, but on the layers panel, the layers are 
all represented as like a grey box / checker pattern, and I cannot edit 
any of the text in the layers.

   I was able to successfully open the file with Photoshop 8CS on 
windows xp running in a virtual machine, and edit the text in the 
layers.  PS did say something about updating when I opened the file, so 
I even tried saving a copy of the file after the update, but it still 
behaves badly in gimp.  Am I perhaps loading something wrong?  Could I 
change some export settings in PS to make it more gimp friendly?  Or am 
I just SOL?  heh.  I could work on it in PS via the virtual machine, but 
I really prefer to keep windows shutdown and use my unix tools instead.

Thanks in advance for your help:)
--nesha
--
Ad Aspera un Astra
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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-07 Thread Carol Spears
On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 09:29:45PM -0500, Enesha Fairluck wrote:
 Good evening all,
 
I am having some trouble, and I hope someone out there can help 
 me:)  I have a .psd template that I got from someone on the net.  I 
 tried opening it in the gimp 2.0 running on mandrake 10.1 and the file 
 opens, and the layers are there, but on the layers panel, the layers are 
 all represented as like a grey box / checker pattern, and I cannot edit 
 any of the text in the layers.
 
I was able to successfully open the file with Photoshop 8CS on 
 windows xp running in a virtual machine, and edit the text in the 
 layers.  PS did say something about updating when I opened the file, so 
 I even tried saving a copy of the file after the update, but it still 
 behaves badly in gimp.  Am I perhaps loading something wrong?  Could I 
 change some export settings in PS to make it more gimp friendly?  Or am 
 I just SOL?  heh.  I could work on it in PS via the virtual machine, but 
 I really prefer to keep windows shutdown and use my unix tools instead.
 
well, unfortunately you are sol and will need to use your viral windows
machine.

there are differences between the native photoshop files and the native
gimp files.  gimp can handle different sized layers and other things.

gimp cannot read psd text information as editable, it reads it only as a
painted layer; at least to the best of my knowledge.

it would be nice if everyone would stop making psd files since not
everyone can use psd.

carol

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Re: [Gimp-user] Trouble with layers from psd

2005-02-07 Thread Carol Spears
On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:58:49PM -0500, Enesha Fairluck wrote:
 Evening, and thanks for the reply:)
 
 Well that isn't the best of news I'll grant you:) Is there no way to 
 convert the psd to something that gimp could import in that way?
 
i am tempted to say definately not so that someone would show me to be
wrong soon, so Definately not!.

carol

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