Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:13 PM, maderios wrote: Earlier today: This error takes away Gimp-2.8 of the world of the professional_s_. And now: What you call safety belt/hard hat is useless for _me_... This is the main problem I have with your argumentation: talking for many people, while it's just about your personal preferences. You've been provided options. What is your reason for continuing this thread? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/14/2012 08:07 AM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do. It's easy - just export it 2) It is not exactly true that further work is near impossible. But without the layers saved separately it's a lot more complex -- of course, depending on specifically what further work you want to do. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:45:48 +0200 From: ofn...@laposte.net To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior On 08/13/2012 09:09 PM, maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote: On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote: But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. How about looking at it this way... We see the reasons behind the change May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ? Before: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer - Does Save as... PNG - Exits - lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving. Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer - Does Export as... PNG - Exits - Gimp complains image not saved - No loss of layers, paths, masks This comparison of GIMP 2.6 and 2.8 demonstrates one of the reasons why the save/export distinction was made in the first place. If you're working on a multilayer XCF composition and use the Save command on a non-XCF (e.g. PNG) format, then: - GIMP doesn't warn you about unsaved changes when you try to exit. - Further invocations of the Save command target the PNG file, not your original XCF. (You should have used the Save a Copy command instead of Save, but I guess nobody ever uses that). You have to manually Save As on the XCF filename again. The most consistent way of solving the issue was to separate XCF and standard file formats into separate commands. Now I am not entirely happy with it - over half my work in GIMP currently involves writing to standard image files so I definitely would like to see an Export/cancel warning instead of just a warning if you try to type in a non-XCF filename, and I still think Save a Copy should be merged as part of the Export command since the only (user-visible) difference between them is the type of file format they write to (neither of them cleans the image status or changes the filename associated with the image). But I am also familiar enough with the whole project concept to know when I should keep a workfile handy so I can come back and work on it later. Another thing that I would like to see, however, is a confirmation warning if you try to use the Overwrite command on a JPEG file; lossy compression and all that -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? 2) Your assumption is that there are layers after the image is flattened seems odd. On 8/14/2012 9:39 AM, Burnie West wrote: On 08/14/2012 08:07 AM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do. It's easy - just export it 2) It is not exactly true that further work is near impossible. But without the layers saved separately it's a lot more complex -- of course, depending on specifically what further work you want to do. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format. I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
...and it still seems as if you have a reading comprehension problem. I asked a simple question -- I think if you would take the time to try and understand the question, you wouldn't be so insulting to people who disagree with your design principles. On 8/14/2012 12:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format. I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/14/2012 09:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format. I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion. Only a native file format and a lossy file format ? Hum (in french, sorry) Native for who ? I presume .xcf is native for you. Not for me if I start with a png, smaller than a xcf. An image file is not native or lossy Ex Lossy format: jpeg, gif Ex Non lossy: png, tiff xcf People are free to work with jpeg or gif. If they want to loss some qualities, they can do do it if they know (or not, why not) what they do. May be, they want to experiment, may be they'll find new forms, nobody knows Jpeg is destructive, may be it's interesting do destroy picture ? Artist is free. Technics are made to be forgotten, otherwise, no Art Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM, maderios wrote: Only a native file format and a lossy file format ? Hum (in french, sorry) Native for who ? 61 deleted messages later you finally started asking the right kind of questions :) As already explained on a frigging huge amount of occasions that you choose to ignore, GIMP is streamlined for people who work on complex multilayered compositions with masks and whatnot, where XCF is always saved, and files in delivery formats (e.g. PNG) are exported. Therefore the only native file format for GIMP is XCF. Period. Therefore GIMP always imports JPEG or PNG instead of just opening it. Full stop. I can see how using Open could be a bit confusing as it both opens (XCF) and imports (JPEG), but let's face it: this is not the reason Ken and you are arguing till you are blue in the face. Ex Non lossy: png, tiff... Oh, but they are. They do not preserve masks, and, when saved form GIMP, TIFF does not preserve layers. It's lossy, no matter how much you want to argue. Please just use Krita. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Tuesday 14 August 2012 21:40:24 maderios wrote: On 08/14/2012 09:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote: 1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format. I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion. Only a native file format and a lossy file format ? Hum (in french, sorry) Native for who ? I presume .xcf is native for you. Not for me if I start with a png, smaller than a xcf. An image file is not native or lossy Ex Lossy format: jpeg, gif Ex Non lossy: png, tiff xcf People are free to work with jpeg or gif. If they want to loss some qualities, they can do do it if they know (or not, why not) what they do. May be, they want to experiment, may be they'll find new forms, nobody knows Jpeg is destructive, may be it's interesting do destroy picture ? Artist is free. Technics are made to be forgotten, otherwise, no Art Best regards Maderios PNG and JPG are not GIMP's native format. XCF is GIMPS native format as PSD is Photoshop's. PNG and JPEG are just some of the formats GIMP or Photoshop can be exported to so other apps can use them too. There is no contest to what formats people want to work in or use. Artists are not bounded by restrictions that such things should be so but rather experiment, use, employ what is available and create something new from these. I don't know who said that but that's what I would define an artist. I'm sorry to be so blatantly direct but so many just have rocks in their brains. Peace and much respect, (Maybe not for some) Archie -- Fortune cookie for Wednesday, August 15, 2012: Sailing is fun, but scrubbing the decks is aardvark. -- Heard on Noahs' ark ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
Are you saying you would like to see the thousands/millions of contented users say so? Please don't encourage that! (Though I am one.) My mail box is already full to overflowing with this discussion that is clearly going nowhere. Remember the serenity prayer--there are some things that just are and you've got recognize them This is one. I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'. I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, That's also how Photoshop does it. Please. Truce. Thanks- Jim Clark From: Ken Warner kwarner...@verizon.net To: Cc: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: 08/12/2012 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Sent by: gimp-user-list-boun...@gnome.org Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that led to this discussion. On 8/12/2012 8:25 AM, isabel brison wrote: Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:55:05 -0500, Jim Clark wrote: Are you saying you would like to see the thousands/millions of contented users say so? Please don't encourage that! (Though I am one.) My mail box is already full to overflowing with this discussion that is clearly going nowhere. Remember the serenity prayer--there are some things that just are and you've got recognize them This is one. I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'. I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, That's also how Photoshop does it. Please. Truce. Thanks- Jim Clark My exact feeling. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'. I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, That's also how Photoshop does it. You confuse professional and amateur work. I'm Audacity user. It works well for amateurs, not for professionnal people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional. When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations. Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning save or save as functions) is not compatible with professional work. Sorry... Regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:58 PM, maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: You confuse professional and amateur work. I'm Audacity user. It works well for amateurs, not for professionnal people. I hate to tell you, but Audacity is extensively used in the professional podcasters community. Yes, personally I'd go for a DAW (and I do), but it doesn't mean Audacity cannot be used professionally. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Monday 13 August 2012 18:58:24 maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'. I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, That's also how Photoshop does it. You confuse professional and amateur work. I'm Audacity user. It works well for amateurs, not for professionnal people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional. When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations. Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning save or save as functions) is not compatible with professional work. Sorry... Regards Maderios LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format. Inkscape will not save a PNG, you'd need to Export it. Save will make your file an SVG or SVGZ. etc. -- Fortune cookie for Tuesday, August 14, 2012: This is Betty Frenel. I don't know who to call but I can't reach my Food-a-holics partner. I'm at Vido's on my second pizza with sausage and mushroom. Jim, come and get me! ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Monday 13 August 2012 21:05:23 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:58 PM, maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: You confuse professional and amateur work. I'm Audacity user. It works well for amateurs, not for professionnal people. I hate to tell you, but Audacity is extensively used in the professional podcasters community. Yes, personally I'd go for a DAW (and I do), but it doesn't mean Audacity cannot be used professionally. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org As a Linux user, I use LMMS. Save, native format. Export, OGG, MP3. -- Fortune cookie for Tuesday, August 14, 2012: Your lover will never wish to leave you. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/13/2012 07:43 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote: On Monday 13 August 2012 18:58:24 maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'. I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, That's also how Photoshop does it. You confuse professional and amateur work. I'm Audacity user. It works well for amateurs, not for professionnal people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional. When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations. Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning save or save as functions) is not compatible with professional work. Sorry... Regards Maderios LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format. Inkscape will not save a PNG, you'd need to Export it. Save will make your file an SVG or SVGZ. Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression. M ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:09 PM, maderios wrote: LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format. Libreoffice doesnt ask you... Oh, but it does ask you whether you really want to save to .doc instead of .odt. I can spread screenshots with a shovel, you know :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. On 8/13/2012 11:20 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: * maderiosmader...@gmail.com [08-13-12 14:09]: ... Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression. In *your* eyes and you are entitled to your *opinion*. You have been told it is to be, why do you continue to argue? You have been provided a ?work-a-round?. Seems you have four choices/avenues available: 1. Akkana Peck's plug-in 2. Create a fork 3. Use different software 4. Use GIMP as provided But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote: But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. How about looking at it this way... We see the reasons behind the change, we were able to adapt to it. Stating that GIMP that the changes are a regression is like saying just change the version number and we'll call that development. Learn to adapt to the changes. Maybe you'll feel better about yourselves. On 8/13/2012 11:20 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: * maderiosmader...@gmail.com [08-13-12 14:09]: ... Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression. In *your* eyes and you are entitled to your *opinion*. You have been told it is to be, why do you continue to argue? You have been provided a ?work-a-round?. Seems you have four choices/avenues available: 1. Akkana Peck's plug-in 2. Create a fork 3. Use different software 4. Use GIMP as provided But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list -- Fortune cookie for Tuesday, August 14, 2012: The moss on the tree does not fear the talons of the hawk. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote: On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote: But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. How about looking at it this way... We see the reasons behind the change May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ? Regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/13/2012 09:09 PM, maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote: On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote: But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. How about looking at it this way... We see the reasons behind the change May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ? Before: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer - Does Save as... PNG - Exits - lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving. Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer - Does Export as... PNG - Exits - Gimp complains image not saved - No loss of layers, paths, masks ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Monday 13 August 2012 21:09:33 maderios wrote: On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote: On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote: But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless. This is most certainly and sadly true. How about looking at it this way... We see the reasons behind the change May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ? Regards Maderios Go over the whole thread please. You might have missed Alexandre's explanation. -- Fortune cookie for Tuesday, August 14, 2012: You will feel hungry again in another hour. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/11/2012 11:40 PM, Gfxuser wrote: On 11.08.12 at 23:19 maderios wrote: For me, export word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary Hi Maderios, the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there. Best regards, grafxuser Hi grafxuser The problem is not to understand ! All I know, all I see, is that the change save and save as in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too. I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and sweat. Unfortunately this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8. This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities save and save as are available again. I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. This is not the case. Another problem in 2.8: When you open a file like bird.jpeg, the file name bird.jpeg doesnt appear in the title bar. I only see bird imported... It is very important to see in the window which file type you edit. Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/12/2012 04:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: * maderiosmader...@gmail.com [08-12-12 10:06]: ... The problem is not to understand ! All I know, all I see, is that the change save and save as in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too. I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and sweat. Unfortunately this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8. Problem would appear to be *selective* reading of the list as Akkana Peck has provided a plug-in to provide your desired action *and* posted notice here. This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities save and save as are available again. I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. This is not the case. I don't believe *threatening* the developers with *your* decision will have *little* effect. I present here just my personal point of view. Developers do what they want ... May be interesting. Upstream disconnected from the user base ? https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107586.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107603.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-May/107697.html ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 12 August 2012 08:37, kiwi_steve for...@gimpusers.com wrote: But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are taking about this is totally unjustified. Then why are they getting it? I've always heard you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. We're getting awesome software absolutely free and yet some people still complain because it's not exactly what they wanted. So why are the devs getting all that flak? I'm beginning to think it's just plain bad manners. *half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration. and I think that they deserve a little (read a lot) of respect simply for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image editing software out there without being paid for it! As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half. Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote: And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution. The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully. So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never listen to you? I have respect for open-source developers Sorry, but you haven't. I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity. And this proves that you don't have any respect for us. I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about it. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote: The name Jesus is correctly pronounced [hey-soos']. Oh boy... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Etymology_of_name I think it's pretty clear what users and developers want and they aren't the same. There we go again. Let me reinstate that: there are no users (as there are no developers). There is a certain group of users we are now catering to at the cost of losing some part of the former community. It was to be expected. We knew that and we take responsibility for that decision. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project Please don't get grumpy, because GIMP is GREAT and its moving forward. I am looking forward to higher bit processing... I wish at times we could close some threads as I am getting a little tied of deleting emails, forums have some advantages to mailing lists... On 12/08/2012 16:42, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote: And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution. The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully. So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never listen to you? I have respect for open-source developers Sorry, but you haven't. I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity. And this proves that you don't have any respect for us. I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about it. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote: Why, in the File-Save as... dialog do other graphical file formats appear in the file browsing? If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then not allow them to save in that format? When you try, a dialog box comes up saying nope! you want to do that, go do this other thing. Imagine being at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign appears saying you can't turn right here *after* you made the turn already! If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working. If the purpose is to educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and negative emotional response. It is simply a bug which you could have reported without all the additional overreaction and speculation. Thanks, this will be looked at. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote: Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how it affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs a user may use at the same time? Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it... GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects, masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file formats such as AAF or OMF. Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check. Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check. Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check. Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check. I've already heard people coming with professional background in media production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export. Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of people we are targeting. And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows) doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original file. This is how we hate you. We've gone from it seemed like a good idea at the time to it's too late to change, the decision has been made. _We_ haven't. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
So please, don't count my silence so far as indifference... Likewise... my silence is not indifference... I LOVE the new behavior. For what I do most, which is creating/editing images with multiple layer/mask support, the change is EXTREMELY welcome. First you have gotten rid of the annoying popup windows telling me I am loosing data when saving to jpeg/png. However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the change now prevents an change being made with layer, mask, or other non JPEG functionality support, saving to jpeg, and the accidentally closing the image without first saving to xcf to ensure those changes are preserved. While it did not happen often in 2.6, it did happen enough to really appreciate the new behavior. Also, for me... EVEN if I hated the new behavior, for me the new features such as resource tagging, brush dynamics(I use a pen/tablet), Layer Groups(though really wish the masking would work on groups.. but will have to wait for 2.10 for that), and other new features are well worth the small change in routine. Of course, this does not even count all of the upcoming changes which will make life so much easier in 2.10, 3.0, and beyond such as layer adjustment masks, etc. For these features alone, I would gladly change my long standing habits. I also want to express my deep appreciation and respect for you guys who spend countless hours of your free time with little to nothing in return. As a few others have noted, I also am getting really tired of hearing all of the people acting like children who are not getting their way. I mean seriously, why keep arguing? The decision has been made, it was made on purpose, it was provided YEARS in advance for those who actually gave a DAMN about their input being heard so that they could provide their input(and in some cases ,their input allowed for some slight tweaks to be made while still following the direction the product wanted to head). Bottom line, if you don't like the new behavior please note your complaint ONCE and then move on... decide if you will relearn behaviors to accommodate the new GIMP UI, roll back to a previous version of GIMP(and thus never get new features again), fork the code, or find a new piece of software. This constant back and forth is pointless trolling... your not going to win and your just doing more to alienate the developers. Perhaps YOU may want GIMP 2.6 to be the perfect GIMP, but you risk ruining for everyone who either don't care about the new save vs export or those who like it from loosing the developers(and thus future updates) of the project. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On Sunday 12 August 2012 21:02:07 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote: Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how it affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs a user may use at the same time? Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it... GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects, masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file formats such as AAF or OMF. Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check. Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check. Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check. Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check. I've already heard people coming with professional background in media production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export. Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of people we are targeting. And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows) doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original file. This is how we hate you. We've gone from it seemed like a good idea at the time to it's too late to change, the decision has been made. _We_ haven't. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org Thank you yet again for the repeated explanation, Alexandre. Allow me to just add in simple terms, GIMP, as excellent as an editor that it is aimed at WORKFLOWS, and although a simple Open File Resize Export (Ctrl+E or Shift+Ctrl+E ... or if anyone wishes, remap the shortcut to Ctrl+S) is also tolerable, the developers' target is serious GIMP use. The choices are simple. If users cannot adapt, stay with 2.6 or look for another editor that works for the users' purposes. Or learn to adapt, which requires very little amount of effort and brain function. If you feel, you've been left out, that is just too bad. Learn to live with it. Give it up with the hate messages. It is clear that the changes are here to stay. I want it to stay, as do many others. Respect to those who deserve, Archie -- Fortune cookie for Monday, August 13, 2012: ASHes to ASHes, DOS to DOS. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
Hi This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions save and save as, indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions save and save as in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice Thanks for your work. Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
How about using the corresponding export commands or binding them to your preferred keys? It doesn't do xcf but this may be acceptable if you mostly export to an image format. Andreas Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios: Hi This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions save and save as, indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions save and save as in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice Thanks for your work. Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
Maybe you can tell us more about what you are doing. I might suspect that it is a repetitive task that could be automated with a script. Let us know if you need help on that. Andreas Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios: Hi This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions save and save as, indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions save and save as in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice Thanks for your work. Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/11/2012 09:58 PM, Andreas Lemke wrote: Maybe you can tell us more about what you are doing. I might suspect that it is a repetitive task that could be automated with a script. Let us know if you need help on that. Andreas Hi No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6 M Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios: Hi This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions save and save as, indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions save and save as in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice Thanks for your work. Best regards Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 11.08.2012 22:51, maderios wrote: Hi No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6 But that would seem to be something the current systems is good for: - export any intermediate state to a different file and format - save in xcf to continue working on the image at a later time Regards, Michael -- Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 08/11/2012 10:59 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: On 11.08.2012 22:51, maderios wrote: Hi No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6 But that would seem to be something the current systems is good for: - export any intermediate state to a different file and format - save in xcf to continue working on the image at a later time This does not happen exactly like your description. I posted this message on Debian list: Save= save the same file (same name) after modifying this file Ex1: I open house.png, I change contrast, luminosity then I save it I use only one key to do it: s It takes 1/5 second Save as= save this file with another name, another extension Ex2: I open house.png, I change contrast, luminosity, I delete some details I don't like with rubber then save it under another name like house-2 because it's a different version. I use only one key to save it under house-2.png: u Ex3: I open house.png. I need .xcf version of this file to build a new image with layers, etc. I use only one key to save it under house.xcf: u Very quick and simple For me, export word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary Save as function is clear: only one key to use and you change only the extension or file name. It's the gimp-2.6 behavior. Regards M ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
On 11.08.12 at 23:19 maderios wrote: For me, export word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary Hi Maderios, the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there. Best regards, grafxuser ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior
And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution. The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully. This is a major change, and many people don't like it (yes, I know many do as well... but you've split the community, and thats the point I'm making). I have respect for open-source developers, but I also wonder how hard-nosed the developers would be if this was a paid application and a bunch of their paying customers started complaining about a divisive change. I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity. I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at the very least have a legacy save option users can activate in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again. My not-so-humble 2.5c (tax inclusive) Steve the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there. -- kiwi_steve (via gimpusers.com) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
