Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/20/2013 01:26 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 09:47:10PM +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: I don't use the word flippantly, but it seems odd to me how many users seem to feel devs owe them something (explanations, time, respect). Where's that entitlement come from? In open source, developers and users should be on the same side. Many times, there is some flow between the two groups. With commercial software, the relationship is explicitly one of commerce and market dynamics. With open source, when functional at least, the whole community is important. So, while you certainly get a number of obnoxious people with an over-wrought sense of entitlement, not all feedback along these lines is that way. I share what I think not because I can't work around it, but because the new enforced workflow is more difficult for me and I think more difficult for others, to the detriment of the software as a whole. I don't presume any right to demand anything, but designers and developers who don't listen to their engaged, active, and concerned users are missing something valuable. If the same thing keeps coming up over and over again to the point where everyone is tired of it and very frustrated, maybe it's time to step back and rethink a little bit. Someone a while ago had the suggestion of building sidecar files with the entire undo history of an image. As storage space continues to increase, that sounds like a very promising path providing best of all worlds. I mean, sure, the developers are perfectly fine in saying no, we're gonna do it this way, but it's also short-sighted to say and stop giving feedback. It seems better to say We did it this way for reasons x, y, and z, but we recognize that what you're asking isn't like the broken spacebar comic. You have options a and b now, and we're thinking about some even better approaches in the future. That's not a sign of weakness. I completely agree with your comment -- Maderios Art is meant to disturb. Science reassures. L'art est fait pour troubler. La science rassure (Georges Braque) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: Someone a while ago had the suggestion of building sidecar files with the entire undo history of an image. As storage space continues to increase, that sounds like a very promising path providing best of all worlds. Part of the reason for this change, is to align the current UI with such capabilities that GIMP eventually will gain as part of the ongoing GEGL integration effort. As already mentioned many times in this thread and through the last decade; GIMP is moving towards a non-destructive editing mindset – interactions designers/architects involved, core developers and well informed users that closely have been following the development over the last decade are aware of this. When such changes have landed in a stable release; there has been a quite long period of feedback from the users that follow development more closely than the users that only use stable versions of GIMP. This is also the reason that core GIMP contributors consider this discussion to already be done and dealt with before it flared up and trolls are keeping it artificially alive. The self selected beta testers that are willing to use the development version and work out problems during active development have a larger influence on decisions. These are also the users it makes most sense for the developers to spend their volunteered time communicating with – since these users directly contribute to finding bugs and potential problems early. /Ø ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 09:47:46PM +0800, Øyvind Kolås wrote: When such changes have landed in a stable release; there has been a quite long period of feedback from the users that follow development more closely than the users that only use stable versions of GIMP. So, that's me, for example. This is also the reason that core GIMP contributors consider this discussion to already be done and dealt with before it flared up and trolls are keeping it artificially alive. The self selected beta testers that are willing to use the development version and work out problems during active development have a larger influence on decisions. These are also the users it makes most sense for the developers to spend their volunteered time communicating with – since these users directly contribute to finding bugs and potential problems early. That doesn't appear to have been the case here. I brought this up during the 2.7.x development series, and was told that it had already been decided. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org http://mattdm.org/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 02:43:12PM +0100, Simon Budig wrote: What would you say to We did it this way for reasons x, y, and z, but we recognize that what you're asking isn't like the broken spacebar comic. You have options a and b now, and we're thinking about some even better approaches in the future, but we won't revert to the old behaviour. Because this is what we said in the past. Over and over again. I would say: okay, cool. But that's not what I've been seeing. It's largely along the lines of you just don't understand that your way causes data loss. Well.. that is a part of it, but it really stops short of the entire point, which is not you just don't understand that your way causes data loss, but more like there are many things in GIMP currently that cause data loss. We are working over the next few releases to change this model such that data loss will never be part of the expected workflow. The change to the save vs. export file handling is just one step in many toward this goal. We won't totally stop you from losing data if you really want to, but we will keep anyone from doing it accidental. Also, please remember that big part of the tone of many around here is that it keeps coming up and in some cases, the same people continually repeat their arguments and some who are just plain rude about it(calling someone working for free on a program you use stupid is generally not a way to endear them to your opinion..not saying *you* have but a few people have said such things and even far worse) I don't know if you have kids or not, but it's kind of like being on a road trip and the kid saying are we there yet dad? The first few times(hopefully), you are nice, but after the kid asks for the 50th time, you feel like breaking something. And Overwrite is pretty close, but it doesn't mark images as clean, so I get confused about what I've saved already. But see, that's because it's not supposed to. Again, you have to remember that as of 2.8, any image pulled into Gimp is NO LONGER a .jpeg or .png or whatever, it's a Gimp image(xcf). You can verify this by looking at the filename in the titlebar which has the (imported) modifier beside it. This shows up for non GIMP file formats and is your cue that you are working on a non native file format(also notice that it goes away once you save to a Gimp file format, as well as the overwrite flag.) This is the whole point in that going forward, it is expected that you work in a non destructive methodology. Another thing to remember is that you are using a plugin to try to get around a behavior that was built in and it's never going to be able to override all of the default functionality(yet another reason I suggest people just bite the bullet and change their thought processes). Anyway... Joe ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:54:41AM +0100, Daniel Hornung wrote: I can't believe this was not brought up by someone already... https://xkcd.com/1172/ So, okay: should the response to that person be: - You should get longer fingers or: - Okay, so you won't be able to do that anymore, but here's how to remap keys in a supported way which will get you want you want ? -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org http://mattdm.org/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Feb 19, 2013 7:31 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:54:41AM +0100, Daniel Hornung wrote: I can't believe this was not brought up by someone already... https://xkcd.com/1172/ So, okay: should the response to that person be: - You should get longer fingers or: - Okay, so you won't be able to do that anymore, but here's how to remap keys in a supported way which will get you want you want Or No, that's not supported anymore. I don't use the word flippantly, but it seems odd to me how many users seem to feel devs owe them something (explanations, time, respect). Where's that entitlement come from? ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote: I have certain doubts that you understand the point of free (as in speech) software. The reason for my doubts is because you keep talking about the character of the giver. The giver/taker dichotomy is, frankly, artificial. GIMP isn't a commercial software project. For one, we don't rely on the customer is always right rule. If you judge us, we are allowed to judge you back, except it's neither constructive nor fun. Cheers are motivational, but so are technical challenges, and we currently have tons of the latter and a good supply of the former. Eventually all currently existing software will become obsolete, and GIMP is no exception. The sooner it happens, the sooner the team will have more spare time for families, friends, and various hobbies. We'll probably even start giving away free hugs instead of free software. My, my -- what a horrible perspective :) The giver/taker dichotomy is not artificial. It is more than human, in fact. It is quite animal in nature. As an aspi myself, I recognize that it is inherently tempting to seek to discard things which are not necessary. But to suggest that giver-taker relationships are artificial? No. Giver-taker, teacher-learner are animal relationships and one which is especially developed among humans. Either I failed to explain, or you didn't get it. What I meant to say is that the same person can be both a giver and a taker. You seem to be attempting to suggest that it isn't so. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Burlen Loring blor...@lbl.gov writes: I'm sure the author(s) feels that it's the best thing since sliced bread, however, differentiating between save and export in newer gimp is a ridiculous waste of time. it's so annoying and in efficient that I feel the need to chime in against it and strongly hope this change will be reversed in a future release. The GIMP developers have stated that they are not reverting the change. Your options are: 1) learn the new way 2) use this plugin which implements the old way within GIMP: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ 3) use the GIMP fork GIMB which reverts the change completely: https://github.com/mardy/gimb -- Kevin Brubeck Unhammer GPG: 0x766AC60C ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:37:25 +0100 Kevin Brubeck Unhammer wrote: 2) use this plugin which implements the old way within GIMP: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ 3) use the GIMP fork GIMB which reverts the change completely: https://github.com/mardy/gimb ... but if so don't try to use Audacity ;-) - Richard. -- Richard Kimber Political Science Resources http://www.PoliticsResources.net/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Heh, I've mostly adapted to the new ways - PRAISE BE TO OUR SAVIOR THE EXPORT COMMAND! I AM NO LONGER A HEATHEN BROTHERS! but it's still *very fun *to see this Smug Developers Vs. The Stupid Backlash that Wouldn't Die movie franchise unfold in countless installments. My main problem with the export faith is that now, one does not simply overwrite into a PNG image after enabling transparency. But what can I do, if I'm just a body among the ignorant, unwashed masses, upon which the glory of the Gimp shines, without ever being able to completely grasp its radiant holyness? PRAISE BE TO THE EXPORT COMMAND! FOR IT IS CODED THAT THROUGH THE EXPORT COMMAND IS THE PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT, SALVATION AND PHOTO EDITING! I have been proven willing to use the holy export command, and thus worthy of the heavenly gift that main branch Gimp is! But to lose patience against a powerless, trickling ragtag bunch of trolls, not only ignorant and unwashed but UNFAITHFUL, and in ill will refusing to accept the good news and renewing ways of the HOLY EXPORT COMMAND? That sure is a sign of a faltering faith. On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer unham...@fsfe.orgwrote: Burlen Loring blor...@lbl.gov writes: I'm sure the author(s) feels that it's the best thing since sliced bread, however, differentiating between save and export in newer gimp is a ridiculous waste of time. it's so annoying and in efficient that I feel the need to chime in against it and strongly hope this change will be reversed in a future release. The GIMP developers have stated that they are not reverting the change. Your options are: 1) learn the new way 2) use this plugin which implements the old way within GIMP: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ 3) use the GIMP fork GIMB which reverts the change completely: https://github.com/mardy/gimb -- Kevin Brubeck Unhammer GPG: 0x766AC60C ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Psiweapon wrote: My main problem with the export faith is that now, one does not simply overwrite into a PNG image after enabling transparency. Could you please elaborate on that? Ideally, in a bug report to bugzilla.gnome.org. May the glorious Sikking emanate His usability love upon you. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/18/2013 02:09 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Jeffery Small j...@cjsa.com wrote: When a major UI change like this is contemplated, why would it not be implemented as a configuration switch which can be turned on/off on the Preferences menu? In this particular case, a simple switch could reverse the Save and Export functions. In the default mode, it would operate just snip There has probably been 1000 times more effort expended writing about this change than would have been spent implementing my suggestion above. That's something worth thinking about. This applies to both sides of the discussion. Except one side wants the old behaviour kept and one doesn't. Whose responsibility is it, then? What do Alexandre and the rest of the devs actually owe users in an open-source project? Particularly years after the change was first mooted and discussed. There are ALREADY plugins for those who want the old behaviour back (not that I've used them). While I can understand the fly-by posts by ignorant rant-ers (happens everywhere), I do not understand long-term readers of this ML continuing this discussion. Someone has already 'fixed' what you believe is broken Hi I use everyday save-export-clean.py plugin. Its' different from gimp-2.6 and other image editors like Krita, Digikam Showfoto, etc.. behavior. It becomes complicated because you get 5 options : - save - save as - export - save/export clean (python plugin) - save for web http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-user/14746-a-plug-in-for-those-who-still-don-t-like-the-new-save-export I do not understand myself why users (who use Gimp everyday, professional or not) opinion is not taken. Developers could give two options in the configuration: 2.6 OR 2.8 save / save as behavior. Gimp-2.6 behavior is not old: it's the standard available in Krita, Digikam Showfoto, Libreoffice, Phot$op, most text editors, etc... -- Maderios Art is meant to disturb. Science reassures. L'art est fait pour troubler. La science rassure (Georges Braque) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/18/2013 09:37 AM, Kevin Brubeck Unhammer wrote: Burlen Loring blor...@lbl.gov writes: I'm sure the author(s) feels that it's the best thing since sliced bread, however, differentiating between save and export in newer gimp is a ridiculous waste of time. it's so annoying and in efficient that I feel the need to chime in against it and strongly hope this change will be reversed in a future release. The GIMP developers have stated that they are not reverting the change. Hi 1) We can suppose developers spend their precious time to code, not to create/edit images 2) Even if developers create images, these developers are amateurs, not professionals: they edit some photos, they do not need to save time like professionals. 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. 4) These developers do not want to see what is happening elsewhere, in the professional world, it is a mistake... -- Maderios Art is meant to disturb. Science reassures. L'art est fait pour troubler. La science rassure (Georges Braque) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
În data de Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:45:55 +0400, Alexandre Prokoudine a scris: Assign Ctrl+S to the save/export clean (python plugin), [...] End of problem. It is not end of problem: the python plugin is not translated, so it does not offer a unitary experience for non-english users :p Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Cristian Secară wrote: În data de Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:45:55 +0400, Alexandre Prokoudine a scris: Assign Ctrl+S to the save/export clean (python plugin), [...] End of problem. It is not end of problem: the python plugin is not translated, so it does not offer a unitary experience for non-english users :p Unlike scripts in Scheme, Python plug-ins can be localized. Send your patch and translation to Akkana :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/18/2013 03:45 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:35 PM, maderios wrote: I use everyday save-export-clean.py plugin. Its' different from gimp-2.6 and other image editors like Krita, Digikam Showfoto, etc.. behavior. It becomes complicated because you get 5 options : - save - save as - export - save/export clean (python plugin) - save for web Assign Ctrl+S to the save/export clean (python plugin), and you have a single option. End of problem. Done since a long time When you edit many kinds of files, jpeg, png, xcf, tiff, gif, etc..., you can't spend your time to watch and remember which kind of file you're working on. This is the difference between amateur and professional/hard user work -- Maderios Art is meant to disturb. Science reassures. L'art est fait pour troubler. La science rassure (Georges Braque) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 7:13 PM, maderios wrote: Assign Ctrl+S to the save/export clean (python plugin), and you have a single option. End of problem. Done since a long time And so the problem is...? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. Have a look at http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign While I wouldn't say that the team are no developers, they probably aren't by your definition. Your problem is that this team managed to convince the developers (by your definition) to implement their plans. And apparently those are spreading to other software. Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/18/2013 04:45 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. Have a look at http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign While I wouldn't say that the team are no developers, they probably aren't by your definition. Your problem is that this team managed to convince the developers (by your definition) to implement their plans. And apparently those are spreading to other software. These guys are architects, they don't need Gimp... No artists, photographers, designers. Photoshop was made for professional photographers That's the difference. Photoshop / Saving images http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7783a.html Regards -- Maderios Art is meant to disturb. Science reassures. L'art est fait pour troubler. La science rassure (Georges Braque) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
2013/2/18 maderios mader...@gmail.com: On 02/18/2013 04:45 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. Have a look at http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign While I wouldn't say that the team are no developers, they probably aren't by your definition. Your problem is that this team managed to convince the developers (by your definition) to implement their plans. And apparently those are spreading to other software. These guys are architects, they don't need Gimp... No artists, photographers, designers. Photoshop was made for professional photographers That's the difference. Photoshop / Saving images http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7783a.html Then please use Photoshop and leave us alone! Puisque Photoshop est parfait, pourquoi vouloir que GIMP n'en soit qu'une pâle imitation ? (Since Photoshop is perfect, why do you want GIMP to be only a poor imitation?) Olivier Lecarme ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com On 02/18/2013 04:45 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. Have a look at http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign While I wouldn't say that the team are no developers, they probably aren't by your definition. Your problem is that this team managed to convince the developers (by your definition) to implement their plans. And apparently those are spreading to other software. These guys are architects, they don't need Gimp... They are interaction architects and usability consultants. Their expertise is to decide how software (and other things) is supposed to look, feel and work. I, for one, agree with their approach. Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Sorry, madeiros, but when you write maderios wrote: When you edit many kinds of files, jpeg, png, xcf, tiff, gif, etc..., you can't spend your time to watch and remember which kind of file you're working on. I'm not buying in. Knowing what the final result will be used for is a critical part of the work flow from the beginning, and to a large degree this influences the decision as to the kind of file one is working on. To say one cannot spend time to watch and remember what kind of file one is working on, is /exactly/ the same as an automobile mechanic claiming to bes too busy to remember whether the current work is on a Volkswagen, or on a Mercedes, or a translator claiming to be too busy to remember whether the target language is Spanish or Korean. Or a woodworker claiming to be too busy to know whether the work at hand is being constructed in Cherry wood or in Teak. Because of the different characteristics of the different file formats, knowing what use will be made of the final product is a critical requirement for the workflow, and I would suggest that forgetting the about the use of the final result during the workflow at any point before it is delivered is someone who has not yet progressed beyond the apprentice stage. ns ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
It would be interesting to know how many list messages by Maderios are on this old, worn-out topic. Please, everyone, complaining is getting you nowhere and is annoying the rest of us who actually have more productive things to do. Surely there's a way to block certain email addresses from posting on the list again?!! For the record, I'm not 100% happy with the change either, but I understand the devs point of view and, since the software is free and much better than Photoshop, I'm willing to live with a little bit of inconvenience. ~Christen On 2/18/2013 9:08 AM, maderios wrote: On 02/18/2013 04:45 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: maderios mader...@gmail.com 3) These developers have created gimp according to their own practice. Have a look at http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign While I wouldn't say that the team are no developers, they probably aren't by your definition. Your problem is that this team managed to convince the developers (by your definition) to implement their plans. And apparently those are spreading to other software. These guys are architects, they don't need Gimp... No artists, photographers, designers. Photoshop was made for professional photographers That's the difference. Photoshop / Saving images http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7783a.html Regards -- Behind the Feather Curtain https://feathercurtain.wordpress.com/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Christen Anderson wrote: It would be interesting to know how many list messages by Maderios are on this old, worn-out topic. The first post I have from Maderios happens to be on this topic in August, 2012. Since then, he has made 91 posts, which on a cursory review, most, if not all, seem to be on this topic. ns ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:26:37 -0700, Christen Anderson wrote: It would be interesting to know how many list messages by Maderios are on this old, worn-out topic. Please, everyone, complaining is getting you nowhere and is annoying the rest of us who actually have more productive things to do. Surely there's a way to block certain email addresses from posting on the list again?!! For the record, I'm not 100% happy with the change either, but I understand the devs point of view and, since the software is free and much better than Photoshop, I'm willing to live with a little bit of inconvenience. ~Christen Christen, the first msg I found dates back from 11-aug-2012. Its been almost eight months of complaining and getting nowhere. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2012-August/msg00061.html I searched maderios site:https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/; at google, and here's the result, you can see for yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=maderios+site:https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/hl=ptclient=firefox-ahs=ubCtbo=drls=org.mozilla:pt-BR:officialei=b3kiUcyYE5Sy8QTgsoCQAQstart=130sa=Nfilter=0biw=1440bih=786 To be honest, not all messages relate to this issue. Some of them are constructive. But maderios seem to have taken this specific issue very personally, despite the numerous alternatives people have given to solve the problem. I'm amazed at how much time and energy people here are willing to devote to replying to a troll. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
* Noel Stoutenburg mjol...@ticnet.com [02-18-13 14:03]: Christen Anderson wrote: It would be interesting to know how many list messages by Maderios are on this old, worn-out topic. The first post I have from Maderios happens to be on this topic in August, 2012. Since then, he has made 91 posts, which on a cursory review, most, if not all, seem to be on this topic. One on 30 Nov was about scanners :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.orgPhoto Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
I can't believe this was not brought up by someone already... https://xkcd.com/1172/ (Or my mail search function is broken, which is possible) -- Mein öffentlicher Schlüssel / My public key: 4096R/600ACB3B 2012-04-01 Fingerabdruck / Fingerprint: 9902 575B B9A0 C339 CFDF 250B 9267 CA6B 600A CB3B Runterladen z.B. bei/ Get it e.g. from: pgp.mit.edu, subkeys.pgp.net, pgp.uni-mainz.de, pool.sks-keyservers.net, ... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Daniel Hornung wrote: I can't believe this was not brought up by someone already... https://xkcd.com/1172/ (Or my mail search function is broken, which is possible) It is broken. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
lmao On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Daniel Hornung wrote: I can't believe this was not brought up by someone already... https://xkcd.com/1172/ (Or my mail search function is broken, which is possible) It is broken. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Burlen Loring wrote: In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. But it isn't :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
I hate to be that guy but this will most likely never change. I don't want to say I hate that feature but it did cause quite the inconvenience for me when it first came out. Over time, I got used to it and now, it's second nature for me to click Export instead of Save when I need to export an image to PNG/TIFF/JPG/GIF rather than save it to an XCF. It makes sense when you think about it. Sent from my iPod On Feb 17, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Burlen Loring blor...@lbl.gov wrote: I'm sure the author(s) feels that it's the best thing since sliced bread, however, differentiating between save and export in newer gimp is a ridiculous waste of time. it's so annoying and in efficient that I feel the need to chime in against it and strongly hope this change will be reversed in a future release. In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. If it's not broken... ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com writes: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Burlen Loring wrote: In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. But it isn't :) Alexandre: I understand the logic behind this change, I agree it is a change but not broken, and I can get used to it well as anyone. But in your responses over the past year, you have demonstrated a real disregard for the work flow of a large number of people who have been using GIMP for a very long time, many of which may never care to use the xcf format. What I find so mysterious is not only the willingness, but the apparent disregard for other viewpoints that the design team has exhibited, by shoving this change down the throats of so many people who clearly do not like it. This I-know-what's-best-for-you, one-size-fits-all attitude is the sort of approach that is currently tearing the world apart in the political and social realm, and it really chafes to see it migrate into the technical world as well. When a major UI change like this is contemplated, why would it not be implemented as a configuration switch which can be turned on/off on the Preferences menu? In this particular case, a simple switch could reverse the Save and Export functions. In the default mode, it would operate just as GIMP 2.8 does, and with a flick of a preference, Save would save in the current native format as 2.6 does, while Export could be identical to Save As -- or, since it is a new feature, it could simply always save in xcf format without troubling anyone. Then everyone would have been happy. Currently, I use GIMP on two platforms. I'm currently stuck with 2.6 on my Solaris system and use 2.8 on Linux. I do use and save in the xcf format, but I also do a huge amount of one-shot editing of jpeg files. Because of this UI change, I have to remember which machine I am on in order to know what a Save ( Control-S has a LOT of muscle-memory associated with it) is going to do. If I had a preference option as described above, I would probably make 2.8 operate like 2.6 until I was able to use 2.8 everywhere, and then I would switch over to the new model and enjoy it going forward. But I don't have that choice. There has probably been 1000 times more effort expended writing about this change than would have been spent implementing my suggestion above. That's something worth thinking about. I'm trying to be helpful here, not angry or insulting. I love GIMP and I have tremendous appreciation and respect for you and everyone else who contributes to the ongoing development, and I extend my thanks for all you do, including responding to irate users like me on this and other forums. I hope you take these comments in the positive spirit I intend them. Regards, -- C. Jeffery Small j...@cjsa.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Jeffery Small wrote: In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. But it isn't :) Alexandre: I understand the logic behind this change, I agree it is a change but not broken, and I can get used to it well as anyone. But in your responses over the past year, you have demonstrated a real disregard for the work flow of a large number of people who have been using GIMP for a very long time, many of which may never care to use the xcf format. What I find so mysterious is not only the willingness, but the apparent disregard for other viewpoints that the design team has exhibited, by shoving this change down the throats of so many people who clearly do not like it. This I-know-what's-best-for-you, one-size-fits-all attitude is the sort of approach that is currently tearing the world apart in the political and social realm, and it really chafes to see it migrate into the technical world as well. When a major UI change like this is contemplated, why would it not be implemented as a configuration switch which can be turned on/off on the Preferences menu? In this particular case, a simple switch could reverse the Save and Export functions. In the default mode, it would operate just as GIMP 2.8 does, and with a flick of a preference, Save would save in the current native format as 2.6 does, while Export could be identical to Save As -- or, since it is a new feature, it could simply always save in xcf format without troubling anyone. Then everyone would have been happy. Currently, I use GIMP on two platforms. I'm currently stuck with 2.6 on my Solaris system and use 2.8 on Linux. I do use and save in the xcf format, but I also do a huge amount of one-shot editing of jpeg files. Because of this UI change, I have to remember which machine I am on in order to know what a Save ( Control-S has a LOT of muscle-memory associated with it) is going to do. If I had a preference option as described above, I would probably make 2.8 operate like 2.6 until I was able to use 2.8 everywhere, and then I would switch over to the new model and enjoy it going forward. But I don't have that choice. There has probably been 1000 times more effort expended writing about this change than would have been spent implementing my suggestion above. That's something worth thinking about. I'm trying to be helpful here, not angry or insulting. I love GIMP and I have tremendous appreciation and respect for you and everyone else who contributes to the ongoing development, and I extend my thanks for all you do, including responding to irate users like me on this and other forums. I hope you take these comments in the positive spirit I intend them. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. That's what the license says, and you accepted it. If you disagree with the license, you shouldn't be using GIMP in the first place. Sorry about being so blunt, but even my patience has a limit. We've already covered every angle of this controversion, replied all the possible questions and suggestions, most of them -- in multiple variations. Yes, that includes your suggestions above. People didn't join this project to spend their time juggling same words again and again. This is why you don't hear much (if anything at all) regarding this controversion from other team members. And this is why you re not going to hear much about that from me. All the answers have been given. If you disagree with our decision, and existing workarounds do not work for you, the most sensible thing to do would be to either revert to GIMP 2.6, use existing forks, or stop using GIMP altogether. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/17/2013 07:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Jeffery Small wrote: In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. But it isn't :) Alexandre: I understand the logic behind this change, I agree it is a change but not broken, and I can get used to it well as anyone. But in your responses over the past year, you have demonstrated a real disregard for the work flow of a large number of people who have been using GIMP for a very long time, many of which may never care to use the xcf format. What I find so mysterious is not only the willingness, but the apparent disregard for other viewpoints that the design team has exhibited, by shoving this change down the throats of so many people who clearly do not like it. This I-know-what's-best-for-you, one-size-fits-all attitude is the sort of approach that is currently tearing the world apart in the political and social realm, and it really chafes to see it migrate into the technical world as well. When a major UI change like this is contemplated, why would it not be implemented as a configuration switch which can be turned on/off on the Preferences menu? In this particular case, a simple switch could reverse the Save and Export functions. In the default mode, it would operate just as GIMP 2.8 does, and with a flick of a preference, Save would save in the current native format as 2.6 does, while Export could be identical to Save As -- or, since it is a new feature, it could simply always save in xcf format without troubling anyone. Then everyone would have been happy. Currently, I use GIMP on two platforms. I'm currently stuck with 2.6 on my Solaris system and use 2.8 on Linux. I do use and save in the xcf format, but I also do a huge amount of one-shot editing of jpeg files. Because of this UI change, I have to remember which machine I am on in order to know what a Save ( Control-S has a LOT of muscle-memory associated with it) is going to do. If I had a preference option as described above, I would probably make 2.8 operate like 2.6 until I was able to use 2.8 everywhere, and then I would switch over to the new model and enjoy it going forward. But I don't have that choice. There has probably been 1000 times more effort expended writing about this change than would have been spent implementing my suggestion above. That's something worth thinking about. I'm trying to be helpful here, not angry or insulting. I love GIMP and I have tremendous appreciation and respect for you and everyone else who contributes to the ongoing development, and I extend my thanks for all you do, including responding to irate users like me on this and other forums. I hope you take these comments in the positive spirit I intend them. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. That's what the license says, and you accepted it. If you disagree with the license, you shouldn't be using GIMP in the first place. Sorry about being so blunt, but even my patience has a limit. We've already covered every angle of this controversion, replied all the possible questions and suggestions, most of them -- in multiple variations. Yes, that includes your suggestions above. People didn't join this project to spend their time juggling same words again and again. This is why you don't hear much (if anything at all) regarding this controversion from other team members. And this is why you re not going to hear much about that from me. All the answers have been given. If you disagree with our decision, and existing workarounds do not work for you, the most sensible thing to do would be to either revert to GIMP 2.6, use existing forks, or stop using GIMP altogether. Major changes are disheartening and often even painful, disorienting and painful. I too have argued against the forced change. Sometimes this approach works. Sometimes it is met with uncalculated resistance. I'm something of an old-timer in that I remember clearly when MS Windows was still being debated. Many people preferred the elementary nature of DOS and saw Windows as a waste of memory and processor resources for what amounted to a fancy menu system. In the end, the GUI won out though many people still cling to the CLI remembering the good old days. We also have other examples of major change in GNOME/Fedora and in Ubuntu. That change is still being fiercely rejected after how many years? It's difficult to say what the outcomes of these issues will be, but there is/was some sort of addon or something for GiMP that would restore the old behavior. Check the lists for more information if you desire it for your more consistent workflow. My fight is over
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Jeffery Small j...@cjsa.com wrote: When a major UI change like this is contemplated, why would it not be implemented as a configuration switch which can be turned on/off on the Preferences menu? In this particular case, a simple switch could reverse the Save and Export functions. In the default mode, it would operate just snip There has probably been 1000 times more effort expended writing about this change than would have been spent implementing my suggestion above. That's something worth thinking about. This applies to both sides of the discussion. Except one side wants the old behaviour kept and one doesn't. Whose responsibility is it, then? What do Alexandre and the rest of the devs actually owe users in an open-source project? Particularly years after the change was first mooted and discussed. There are ALREADY plugins for those who want the old behaviour back (not that I've used them). While I can understand the fly-by posts by ignorant rant-ers (happens everywhere), I do not understand long-term readers of this ML continuing this discussion. Someone has already 'fixed' what you believe is broken ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On 02/17/2013 09:27 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 5:36 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote: For now, there is no alternative to GiMP. Krita is a very nice alternative for a number of use cases. But if one were to appear, can you imagine what factors might come into play when people decide what to use? GiMP doesn't exist entirely because of the developers. No question that the developers create, maintain and push it forward -- it couldn't happen without it. But the cheering crowds have value as well. Without users expressing their needs and wishes, projects get lost and forgotten... and without the cheering crowd, developers also lose interest. No one owes kindness and consideration to anyone else. But that doesn't mean they aren't important. And it reflects well on the character of the giver. I have certain doubts that you understand the point of free (as in speech) software. The reason for my doubts is because you keep talking about the character of the giver. The giver/taker dichotomy is, frankly, artificial. GIMP isn't a commercial software project. For one, we don't rely on the customer is always right rule. If you judge us, we are allowed to judge you back, except it's neither constructive nor fun. Cheers are motivational, but so are technical challenges, and we currently have tons of the latter and a good supply of the former. Eventually all currently existing software will become obsolete, and GIMP is no exception. The sooner it happens, the sooner the team will have more spare time for families, friends, and various hobbies. We'll probably even start giving away free hugs instead of free software. My, my -- what a horrible perspective :) The giver/taker dichotomy is not artificial. It is more than human, in fact. It is quite animal in nature. As an aspi myself, I recognize that it is inherently tempting to seek to discard things which are not necessary. But to suggest that giver-taker relationships are artificial? No. Giver-taker, teacher-learner are animal relationships and one which is especially developed among humans. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
Daniel Hauck (dan...@yacg.com) wrote: Owe? Therein lies a kind of perspective concern. It's not a question of what is owed, but is what is wanted. The response to something which is wanted is what matters here. Wanted by whom? We had lots of users here expressing their desire in a tone which clearly showed that they think they can demand from the developers to implement the features they want. They seem to think that they can threaten us with a switch to photoshop. [*] The change is viewed by many as unwelcome. The responses to their wants are unkind and devoid of understanding. I said it earlier and will repeat it gladly again. Developers of free software are selfish bastards. And yes, that includes me. I work with free software, because I get a glimpse in relatively big working things. There are interesting problems inside and I don't have to sign stupid NDAs to get access to the source. I have the freedom to modify the program to *my* needs. And I am happy if these needs are the same as from other people and I can discuss interesting issues with them, giving me satisfaction on an intellectual level. It is not interesting to me, to maximize the number of users. There is a certain reputation to be earned if I can claim that I work on the GIMP, but this doesn't really grow with the number of users. In fact, more users means more stupid discussions about uninteresting topics. And to be specific regarding export-vs-save: It was a highly interesting process to watch peter come up with the specification, find its problems, and tweak it. I wasn't really involved directly, but seeing Peters approach to these design things is fascinating. I might disagree with his solution, but I clearly see its solid reasoning. And then there is this clear and straightforward concept, which still might have little bugs or issues that needs to be adressed. And it meets this incredibly loud, uninformed and unkind response when people suddenly realize, that following a development process might *gasp* actually involve changes. And it is about a tiny change in the menus. Nobody seems to care about the important stuff... And the always-repeated suggestion is to introduce a configuration option (which for some reason is perceived as being simple), which would just kill the straightforwardness and clarity, will introduce badly tested codepaths and give a lot of headache to people following tutorials that happen to have the other option enabled. What is it again, that a selfish bastard developer like me would gain from implementing this? I'd do something I am convinced is the wrong thing. And I'd feel dirty for implementing a compromise I regard as stupid. I don't think this is going to happen... Bye, Simon [*] ...which is hilarious. While I don't really know it, Photoshop seems to be a great piece of software and I have a lot of respect for the work the developers do. If you're going to be happy with photoshop, then please go on and use it. But please - regardless of GIMP or Photoshop - respect the licenses attached. -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] export vs save
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote: In the nearly 10 years of using the gimp I can't think of a single time where this would be useful. I've never had a problem differentiating between xcf and other formats. That use case is covered quite nicely by save a copy. But it isn't :) Anyone remember my (somewhat controversial) suggestion way back to merge save a copy with export since the only (user-visible) difference between them is the target file format? Save a copy is for revisions of XCF. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
