[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[Niklas Mischkulnig]

The grey ones aren't selectable, everything is fine. (I actually like this 
more than Windows, where folder can suddenly seem empty)

Niklas

Am Donnerstag, 27. Juni 2019 17:45:19 UTC+2 schrieb T. Modes:
>
> Hi Niklas,
>
> Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 23:10:51 UTC+2 schrieb Niklas Mischkulnig:
>>
>> Yes, that works:
>>
>
>  Ok, that looks better. But it seems that the file open dialog behaves 
> different on Mac OS X. When you select another file type the other files 
> are only grey out - can you still select the greyed out files, or can you 
> select only the active images? If it is the former one, I need to change 
> the logic for Mac OS.
>
> Thomas
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[T. Modes]

Hi Niklas,

Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 23:10:51 UTC+2 schrieb Niklas Mischkulnig:
>
> Yes, that works:
>

 Ok, that looks better. But it seems that the file open dialog behaves 
different on Mac OS X. When you select another file type the other files 
are only grey out - can you still select the greyed out files, or can you 
select only the active images? If it is the former one, I need to change 
the logic for Mac OS.

Thomas

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[Niklas Mischkulnig]

Yes, that works:

[image: Bildschirmfoto 2019-06-26 um 23.09.15.png]

Niklas


Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 21:32:44 UTC+2 schrieb T. Modes:
>
> Hi Niklas,
>
> Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 20:39:41 UTC+2 schrieb T. Modes:
>>
>> Now the add raw dialog is called when a raw file is selected in the add 
>> images dialog (this is detected by using the selected file type filter.) 
>> Not sure why the this is missing in your screen shot - according to 
>> wxWidgets doc this is also supported on Mac. 
>>
>
> okay, found it. Apple decided that the file open dialog should not show a 
> file type list and wxWidgets follow this recommendation, what the heck...
> I found a (poorly documented) workaround to force the display of the file 
> type list again on OS X. Could you please test current tip?
>
> TIA
> Thomas
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[T. Modes]

Hi Niklas,

Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 20:39:41 UTC+2 schrieb T. Modes:
>
> Now the add raw dialog is called when a raw file is selected in the add 
> images dialog (this is detected by using the selected file type filter.) 
> Not sure why the this is missing in your screen shot - according to 
> wxWidgets doc this is also supported on Mac. 
>

okay, found it. Apple decided that the file open dialog should not show a 
file type list and wxWidgets follow this recommendation, what the heck...
I found a (poorly documented) workaround to force the display of the file 
type list again on OS X. Could you please test current tip?

TIA
Thomas

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[Niklas Mischkulnig]

Wasn't there an "Add Raw Image" dialog once? Using the normal one for 
images adds only the tiny embedded

thumbnails for me (NEF files), rather than throwing an exception (not ideal 
either).


The "Add Image" dialog:

[image: Bildschirmfoto 2019-06-26 um 18.51.55.png]




Am Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 16:54:01 UTC+2 schrieb T. Modes:
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 23:30:19 UTC+2 schrieb Michael Kraul:
>>
>>
>> When adding a RAW file this will not be decoded
>>
>>
> Have you set the file filter in the add files dialog to raw files?
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW Support in Hugin 2019 failed

[T. Modes]

Am Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 23:30:19 UTC+2 schrieb Michael Kraul:
>
>
> When adding a RAW file this will not be decoded
>
>
Have you set the file filter in the add files dialog to raw files?

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Albert Szostkiewicz]

Ah yes, thx for reply.
I was looking at that as well. Adobe is using its own DNG converter
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/adobe-dng-converter.html
I heard good things about it, but too bad for me that its only win/osx 
again and it is yet again another layer of conversion. That is why i was 
looking at UFRAW and DCRAW instead. Not sure if you have any test examples 
but I was unable to find any meaninful differences where dcraw or ufraw 
would destroy any raw data.

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 8:21:31 AM UTC-7, Erik Krause wrote:
>
> Am 12.07.2018 um 17:05 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz: 
> > Could you elaborate please? what is your choice of converter that is 
> giving 
> > you best result ? 
> > "decent converter" is not a suggestion. 
>
> I use Adobe Camera Raw, since I happen to own a Photoshop CS6 license. 
> Lightroom uses the same raw conversion engine, BTW. Before that I used 
> the raw converter that came with my EOS 5D, Digital Photo Professional, 
> but never went back. ACR is so much better, especially if you use third 
> party lenses. 
>
> I tested RawTherapee some years ago. The results where just fine but 
> back then it was less reliable. This might have changed. Other people 
> swear on DxO and find it superior to ACR, but I never tried that. 
>
> As for my workflow: I batch convert with ACR to 16bit TIFF, then batch 
> merge and tonemap (in case of bracketed shots) with SNS-HDR lite, then 
> stitch. 
>
> -- 
> Erik Krause 
> http://www.erik-krause.de 
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Erik Krause]

Am 12.07.2018 um 17:05 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:

Could you elaborate please? what is your choice of converter that is giving
you best result ?
"decent converter" is not a suggestion.


I use Adobe Camera Raw, since I happen to own a Photoshop CS6 license. 
Lightroom uses the same raw conversion engine, BTW. Before that I used 
the raw converter that came with my EOS 5D, Digital Photo Professional, 
but never went back. ACR is so much better, especially if you use third 
party lenses.


I tested RawTherapee some years ago. The results where just fine but 
back then it was less reliable. This might have changed. Other people 
swear on DxO and find it superior to ACR, but I never tried that.


As for my workflow: I batch convert with ACR to 16bit TIFF, then batch 
merge and tonemap (in case of bracketed shots) with SNS-HDR lite, then 
stitch.


--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Albert Szostkiewicz]

> Use a decent raw converter and convert to 16 bit TIFF.

Could you elaborate please? what is your choice of converter that is giving
you best result ?
"decent converter" is not a suggestion.
Thanks.

> To be clear, you're using PTGui not merely to develop the raw images,
> but also to stitch/fuse them, correct?

correct! currently yes. If I was just about to convert raw images I would
choose something like DCRAW or UFRAW that i have tested in the past.
Maybe Erik could suggest something better that he is using.
Currently I am using PTGui to stitch my hdrs but I would love to switch to
Hugin if I could get at least similar results.

Cheers!




On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:01 AM Erik Krause  wrote:

> Am 12.07.2018 um 15:57 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
> > What is your suggested workflow then ?
>
> Use a decent raw converter and convert to 16 bit TIFF.
>
> --
> Erik Krause
>
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[T. Modes]

Am Donnerstag, 12. Juli 2018 08:45:47 UTC+2 schrieb Groogle:
>
> > Other than the work required (which may be non-trivial, balanced 
> > against the fact that the Hugin developers have other things they 
> > want to do, not to mention lives outside of Hugin), there's no 
> > reason Hugin couldn't do the same thing. 
>
> In fact, I'm working in exactly the opposite direction, writing 
> scripts that automate more and more of what Hugin does.  But yes, 
> possibly the option of starting a raw converter of your choice might 
> make sense. 
>
Or you could use PTBatcherGUI, which has already a lot of automatic 
functions.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Robert Krawitz]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:57:26 -0700, Albert Szostkiewicz wrote:
>> PTGui uses only a fraction of that possibilities. I'd never shoot raw
>> only for PTGui's raw import. It's not worth the hassle at all.
>
> What is your suggested workflow then ?

To be clear, you're using PTGui not merely to develop the raw images,
but also to stitch/fuse them, correct?

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:18 AM Erik Krause  wrote:
>
>> Am 12.07.2018 um 08:46 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
>> > I know that PTGui is using dcraw, and there is nothing wrong with it. It
>> is
>> > also not true that dcraw will strip all dynamic range data. You can check
>> > its possibilities here (https://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/)
>>
>> PTGui uses only a fraction of that possibilities. I'd never shoot raw
>> only for PTGui's raw import. It's not worth the hassle at all.

-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Erik Krause]

Am 12.07.2018 um 15:57 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:

What is your suggested workflow then ?


Use a decent raw converter and convert to 16 bit TIFF.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Albert Szostkiewicz]

> PTGui uses only a fraction of that possibilities. I'd never shoot raw
> only for PTGui's raw import. It's not worth the hassle at all.

What is your suggested workflow then ?


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:18 AM Erik Krause  wrote:

> Am 12.07.2018 um 08:46 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
> > I know that PTGui is using dcraw, and there is nothing wrong with it. It
> is
> > also not true that dcraw will strip all dynamic range data. You can check
> > its possibilities here (https://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/)
>
> PTGui uses only a fraction of that possibilities. I'd never shoot raw
> only for PTGui's raw import. It's not worth the hassle at all.
>
> --
> Erik Krause
> http://www.erik-krause.de
>
> --
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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Erik Krause]

Am 12.07.2018 um 08:46 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:

I know that PTGui is using dcraw, and there is nothing wrong with it. It is
also not true that dcraw will strip all dynamic range data. You can check
its possibilities here (https://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/)


PTGui uses only a fraction of that possibilities. I'd never shoot raw 
only for PTGui's raw import. It's not worth the hassle at all.


--
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http://www.erik-krause.de

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Albert Szostkiewicz]

wow, I did not expect such big and aggressive response :)
I did not meant to offend hugin hardcore fans :)

I know that PTGui is using dcraw, and there is nothing wrong with it. It is
also not true that dcraw will strip all dynamic range data. You can check
its possibilities here (https://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/)
All I am asking is why not give such ability to Hugin? I don't think that
would strip anyone from control. It would just add simple yet handy feature
to Hugin.

My point being: I needed simple software that gives me good result, fast
for my own simple task: create HDR panorama from raw photos (for my
personal purposes, not at work). I was checking few softwares on the market
like gigapano, ptgui, hugin and few others. Without knowing neither of
them, I wanted to give a try to each one of software ans see which one will
give me best results.
I ended up being torn apart between ptgui and hugin. While Hugin is a free
package, I was forced to deal with conversions, transferring exif infos,
dealing with color spaces during conversion and stitching was giving me
unwanted artifacts which I have tried to fix with different tools and
settings but after few hours i gave up. Ptgui on other is not available on
linux so I had to run it via wine and it payed software so two strikes on
beginning. But I was able to throw at him my raw photos directly and i got
expected result without touching a single setting, no artifacts, just
worked with single button, got expected dynamic range.
Simplicity when needed. Ended with paying for PTGui license.
Stitching HDR panoramas should be really 1-2-3 click, simple task. There is
no brainier here (from Artistic point of view).
In a large company I work for, they ended up writing own software to stitch
HDR panos automatically (as we use them for work purposes)
I am Linux user, and I work in quite complicated software on everyday
basics but If we could simplify and make some steps easier - why not?


On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:36 AM Vladimir Nadvornik 
wrote:

> On 07/11/2018 11:17 AM, Marcel Brouillet wrote:
> > I read about demosaic-ing and did my RAW-101 class :-). I'm still a noob
> on
> > this. I understand the process would involve a RAW sticher, the PTO
> being
> > generated on some initial set of (rough) converted files. Yet...
> > Vladimir, why do you have the need to separate the colors ? Can't the
> > stitching be done on the array of Bayer data ?
>
> I was thinking about something similar to "Bayer drizzle" algorithm
> (soory, right now I can't find any good explanationon fof it, the
> information on google is rather fragmented)
>
> The input is bayer data, output is normal RGB image.
>
>
> > Care has to be taken that
> > red values be distorted and only put in red positions in the resulting
> > array, before mixed with other red values from other distorted arrays.
> But
> > then the resulting array is a giant RAW array, a panoramic RAW, that
> needs
> > to be de-mosaic'ed, white-balanced, noise-reduced, etc... The advantage
> > (quite certainly not worth the development, but theoretical) being that
> you
> > handle the RAW processing on the entire pano, afterwards.
> >
> > In other words, programmatic care has to be taken that « *The next
> problem
> > is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed* » be avoided.
> >
> > I foresee a possible objection, that raw values only have sense in
> relative
> > values within a single shot, and that two shots do not share the same
> > numeric conversion origins (i.e. measurement offset, inconsistent
> > calibration of the A-to-N converter). Is that so ?
> >
>
> I see no advantage in saving output as Bayer data. For example
> Rawtherapee handles tif files almost the same as raws.
>
>
> Vladimir
>
> >
> > Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 20:53:52 UTC+2, T. Modes a écrit :
> >>
> >> Am Montag, 9. Juli 2018 16:02:06 UTC+2 schrieb nadv...@suse.cz:
> >>>
> >>> It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent
> channels
> >>> with transparency:
> >>>
> >>> source:
> >>>
> >>> RGRGRG
> >>> GBGBGB
> >>> RGRGRG
> >>>
> >>> to:
> >>>
> >>> RTRTRT
> >>> TT
> >>> RTRTRT
> >>>
> >>> TGTGTG
> >>> GTGTGT
> >>> TGTGTG
> >>>
> >>> TT
> >>> TBTBTB
> >>> TT
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with
> nona
> >>> and enblend.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you do it this way each color will get different interpolation for
> each
> >> color (because different alpha channels) and this will results in color
> >> seams.
> >> The next problem is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is
> destroyed.
> >> With the destroyed Bayer pattern it because impossible (or at least
> very
> >> difficult) for the RAW converter to demosaic the data now to get the
> final
> >> image.
> >>
> >> (An alternative approach would be to demosaic the image data, then
> remap
> >> the data and then mosaic the data again to get the RAW again. But then
> you
> >> will loose resolution. So this is a no go.)
> 

Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 at  8:29:20 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:15:19 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 at  8:10:08 -0700, Albert Szostkiewicz wrote:
>>> As much as I wish to stay with Linux (which is my main operating
>>> system) and Hougin Open software, currently I am forced to run PtGui
>>> via wine to do my job as expected.
>>
>> Note that the Unix (and thus Linux) way is to have multiple programs,
>> each able to perform one function and perform it well.  It looks like
>> you're looking for the opposite.
>
> The "UNIX/Linux way" also allows for scripts and other ways to combine
> separate tools into one from the user perspective.

Yes, of course.

> If I have a complex pipeline of operations I want to perform I don't
> have to remember them and run them all by hand; I can use a script
> to do that for me.

Yes, that's exactly what I do.  And also make(1), of course.

>>> It streamlines simple work that has to be done without requirement
>>> of 3rd party software in the process.
>>
>> It still requires mouse pushing.  If you're looking for automatic raw
>> conversions, you can do that too with UFRaw, which has a batch mode.
>> Read in your images, run ufraw-batch on them to produce TIFF output
>> files, and you're ready to go.
>
> One less step, though.

That depends.  We're looking at a single step.  I have a script that
reads in files from the camera, only actually transferring files that
aren't already there.  It would be trivial to augment it to put it
through something like dcraw, if I thought that mindless conversion of
images made sense.

> Other than the work required (which may be non-trivial, balanced
> against the fact that the Hugin developers have other things they
> want to do, not to mention lives outside of Hugin), there's no
> reason Hugin couldn't do the same thing.

In fact, I'm working in exactly the opposite direction, writing
scripts that automate more and more of what Hugin does.  But yes,
possibly the option of starting a raw converter of your choice might
make sense.

>> Just checked https://www.ptgui.com/features.html: yes, PTGui uses
>> dcraw to convert the images.  That's the same program that's behind
>> UFRaw.  The difference with Linux is that you have a choice of raw
>> conversion tools, and that's one of the main reasons for using raw
>> images in the first place.
>
> False dichotomy; there's nothing preventing someone from using a
> separate tool to convert the RAWs into TIFFs or JPEGs and invoking
> PTGui on those.

Of course not, but that misses the point: the original poster wanted
PTGui just for the raw conversion functionality.  If he uses a
standalone program to do the conversion, then he can use Hugin and
doesn't need PTGui.

Greg
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Vladimir Nadvornik]

On 07/11/2018 11:17 AM, Marcel Brouillet wrote:
> I read about demosaic-ing and did my RAW-101 class :-). I'm still a noob on 
> this. I understand the process would involve a RAW sticher, the PTO being 
> generated on some initial set of (rough) converted files. Yet...
> Vladimir, why do you have the need to separate the colors ? Can't the 
> stitching be done on the array of Bayer data ? 

I was thinking about something similar to "Bayer drizzle" algorithm
(soory, right now I can't find any good explanationon fof it, the
information on google is rather fragmented)

The input is bayer data, output is normal RGB image.


> Care has to be taken that 
> red values be distorted and only put in red positions in the resulting 
> array, before mixed with other red values from other distorted arrays. But 
> then the resulting array is a giant RAW array, a panoramic RAW, that needs 
> to be de-mosaic'ed, white-balanced, noise-reduced, etc... The advantage 
> (quite certainly not worth the development, but theoretical) being that you 
> handle the RAW processing on the entire pano, afterwards.
> 
> In other words, programmatic care has to be taken that « *The next problem 
> is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed* » be avoided.
> 
> I foresee a possible objection, that raw values only have sense in relative 
> values within a single shot, and that two shots do not share the same 
> numeric conversion origins (i.e. measurement offset, inconsistent 
> calibration of the A-to-N converter). Is that so ?
> 

I see no advantage in saving output as Bayer data. For example
Rawtherapee handles tif files almost the same as raws.


Vladimir

> 
> Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 20:53:52 UTC+2, T. Modes a écrit :
>>
>> Am Montag, 9. Juli 2018 16:02:06 UTC+2 schrieb nadv...@suse.cz:
>>>
>>> It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent channels 
>>> with transparency: 
>>>
>>> source: 
>>>
>>> RGRGRG 
>>> GBGBGB 
>>> RGRGRG 
>>>
>>> to: 
>>>
>>> RTRTRT 
>>> TT 
>>> RTRTRT 
>>>
>>> TGTGTG 
>>> GTGTGT 
>>> TGTGTG 
>>>
>>> TT 
>>> TBTBTB 
>>> TT 
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with nona 
>>> and enblend. 
>>>
>>  
>>
>> If you do it this way each color will get different interpolation for each 
>> color (because different alpha channels) and this will results in color 
>> seams.
>> The next problem is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed. 
>> With the destroyed Bayer pattern it because impossible (or at least very 
>> difficult) for the RAW converter to demosaic the data now to get the final 
>> image.
>>
>> (An alternative approach would be to demosaic the image data, then remap 
>> the data and then mosaic the data again to get the RAW again. But then you 
>> will loose resolution. So this is a no go.)
>>
> 

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2018-07-11 18:19 UTC+02:00, Vladimir Nadvornik :
> On 07/11/2018 10:07 AM, Erik Krause wrote:
>> Am 10.07.2018 um 17:10 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
>>> Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I am
>>> hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With PtGui
>>> for
>>> eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper exposure merge
>>> is
>>> being applied. With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for
>>> conversion
>>> into TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible mistake.
>>
>> raw data is by no means image data, it's the raw reading from the sensor
>> and it's awful. PTGui uses dcraw for conversion, which does a very basic
>> job. Using dcraw you loose almost all benefits of shooting raw including
>> correction of chromatic aberration, moiré, white balance, dead or hot
>> pixels, highlight restoration or noise reduction. You might well get
>> better images using jpeg straight from the camera. You don't get the
>> full dynamic range either, since dcraw clips all channels to the lowest
>> channel (thus avoiding a tint in clipped highlights). It is far better
>> to use a decent and dedicated raw converter.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I think this is exactly the problem. RAW converter replaces bad pixels
> (overexposures, hotpixels, etc.) with some "guessed" values. This is ok
> for single image, but when you have multiple image of the same area,
> then there is a chance that another image has "real" values.
>
> Currently Hugin does not have information about these "guessed" values.
> There are some workarounds like using thresholds, but the results are
> not optimal. Having this information directly from (integrated) raw
> converter would work better.
>
> Vladimir
>
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Would this be worth it? How often do you reach a few dozens bad pixels
in an image? Let's say 100 pixels (this seems a lot, I'd buy a new
camera long before) on a 10 MPx image, which means 1 pixel out of
10. And those wouldn't be completely wrong, if the camera did a
correct job of "fixing" them.

-- 
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Vladimir Nadvornik]

On 07/11/2018 10:07 AM, Erik Krause wrote:
> Am 10.07.2018 um 17:10 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
>> Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I am
>> hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With PtGui for
>> eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper exposure merge is
>> being applied. With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for conversion
>> into TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible mistake.
> 
> raw data is by no means image data, it's the raw reading from the sensor 
> and it's awful. PTGui uses dcraw for conversion, which does a very basic 
> job. Using dcraw you loose almost all benefits of shooting raw including 
> correction of chromatic aberration, moiré, white balance, dead or hot 
> pixels, highlight restoration or noise reduction. You might well get 
> better images using jpeg straight from the camera. You don't get the 
> full dynamic range either, since dcraw clips all channels to the lowest 
> channel (thus avoiding a tint in clipped highlights). It is far better 
> to use a decent and dedicated raw converter.
> 

Hi,

I think this is exactly the problem. RAW converter replaces bad pixels
(overexposures, hotpixels, etc.) with some "guessed" values. This is ok
for single image, but when you have multiple image of the same area,
then there is a chance that another image has "real" values.

Currently Hugin does not have information about these "guessed" values.
There are some workarounds like using thresholds, but the results are
not optimal. Having this information directly from (integrated) raw
converter would work better.

Vladimir

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Erik Krause]

Am 11.07.2018 um 11:09 schrieb David W. Jones:

Well, I think dcraw actually is a dedicated raw converter (it doesn't
do anything else) and certainly seems to offer a lot of command line
options (including dead or hot pixels, noise reduction, highlight
clipping/no clipping/blending/reconstruction, etc):


dcraw excels as a raw file decoder. The conversion part is mediocre at 
best. Most universal raw converters use the file decoding code of dcraw 
but only few (that are known for inferior results) use the raw 
conversion part.


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Robert Krawitz]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:15:19 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 at  8:10:08 -0700, Albert Szostkiewicz wrote:
>> As much as I wish to stay with Linux (which is my main operating
>> system) and Hougin Open software, currently I am forced to run PtGui
>> via wine to do my job as expected.
>
> Note that the Unix (and thus Linux) way is to have multiple programs,
> each able to perform one function and perform it well.  It looks like
> you're looking for the opposite.

The "UNIX/Linux way" also allows for scripts and other ways to combine
separate tools into one from the user perspective.  If I have a
complex pipeline of operations I want to perform I don't have to
remember them and run them all by hand; I can use a script to do that
for me.  And indeed if I look in /usr/bin, about 25% of the programs
there are in fact scripts -- programs that hide the fact that they are
actually multiple programs being combined.

>> It streamlines simple work that has to be done without requirement
>> of 3rd party software in the process.
>
> It still requires mouse pushing.  If you're looking for automatic raw
> conversions, you can do that too with UFRaw, which has a batch mode.
> Read in your images, run ufraw-batch on them to produce TIFF output
> files, and you're ready to go.

One less step, though.  Other than the work required (which may be
non-trivial, balanced against the fact that the Hugin developers have
other things they want to do, not to mention lives outside of Hugin),
there's no reason Hugin couldn't do the same thing.

> Just checked https://www.ptgui.com/features.html: yes, PTGui uses
> dcraw to convert the images.  That's the same program that's behind
> UFRaw.  The difference with Linux is that you have a choice of raw
> conversion tools, and that's one of the main reasons for using raw
> images in the first place.

False dichotomy; there's nothing preventing someone from using a
separate tool to convert the RAWs into TIFFs or JPEGs and invoking
PTGui on those.
-- 
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Marcel Brouillet]

I read about demosaic-ing and did my RAW-101 class :-). I'm still a noob on 
this. I understand the process would involve a RAW sticher, the PTO being 
generated on some initial set of (rough) converted files. Yet...
Vladimir, why do you have the need to separate the colors ? Can't the 
stitching be done on the array of Bayer data ? Care has to be taken that 
red values be distorted and only put in red positions in the resulting 
array, before mixed with other red values from other distorted arrays. But 
then the resulting array is a giant RAW array, a panoramic RAW, that needs 
to be de-mosaic'ed, white-balanced, noise-reduced, etc... The advantage 
(quite certainly not worth the development, but theoretical) being that you 
handle the RAW processing on the entire pano, afterwards.

In other words, programmatic care has to be taken that « *The next problem 
is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed* » be avoided.

I foresee a possible objection, that raw values only have sense in relative 
values within a single shot, and that two shots do not share the same 
numeric conversion origins (i.e. measurement offset, inconsistent 
calibration of the A-to-N converter). Is that so ?


Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 20:53:52 UTC+2, T. Modes a écrit :
>
> Am Montag, 9. Juli 2018 16:02:06 UTC+2 schrieb nadv...@suse.cz:
>>
>> It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent channels 
>> with transparency: 
>>
>> source: 
>>
>> RGRGRG 
>> GBGBGB 
>> RGRGRG 
>>
>> to: 
>>
>> RTRTRT 
>> TT 
>> RTRTRT 
>>
>> TGTGTG 
>> GTGTGT 
>> TGTGTG 
>>
>> TT 
>> TBTBTB 
>> TT 
>>
>>
>> I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with nona 
>> and enblend. 
>>
>  
>
> If you do it this way each color will get different interpolation for each 
> color (because different alpha channels) and this will results in color 
> seams.
> The next problem is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed. 
> With the destroyed Bayer pattern it because impossible (or at least very 
> difficult) for the RAW converter to demosaic the data now to get the final 
> image.
>
> (An alternative approach would be to demosaic the image data, then remap 
> the data and then mosaic the data again to get the RAW again. But then you 
> will loose resolution. So this is a no go.)
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[bugbear]

Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:



Note that the Unix (and thus Linux) way is to have multiple programs,
each able to perform one function and perform it well.  It looks like
you're looking for the opposite.


Agreed - making a monolith is not the Unix way.

But allowing programs to work together in a convenient
and efficient manner is very much the Unix way (c.f. pipelines!!).

I would be interested to have Hugin able
to INVOKE a separate program, with command line arguments,
as an importer, in the same way that it already does for
both control point detection and blending.

Unix being Unix, the "external" program could in fact
be a wrapper script, calling an actual program
with an arbitrary command and/or list of control/parameter files.

 BugBear

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[David W. Jones]

On July 10, 2018 10:07:07 PM HST, Erik Krause  wrote:
>Am 10.07.2018 um 17:10 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:
>> Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I
>am
>> hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With
>PtGui for
>> eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper exposure
>merge is
>> being applied. With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for
>conversion
>> into TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible
>mistake.
>
>raw data is by no means image data, it's the raw reading from the
>sensor 
>and it's awful. PTGui uses dcraw for conversion, which does a very
>basic 
>job. Using dcraw you loose almost all benefits of shooting raw
>including 
>correction of chromatic aberration, moiré, white balance, dead or hot 
>pixels, highlight restoration or noise reduction. You might well get 
>better images using jpeg straight from the camera. You don't get the 
>full dynamic range either, since dcraw clips all channels to the lowest
>
>channel (thus avoiding a tint in clipped highlights). It is far better 
>to use a decent and dedicated raw converter.

Well, I think dcraw actually is a dedicated raw converter (it doesn't do 
anything else) and certainly seems to offer a lot of command line options 
(including dead or hot pixels, noise reduction, highlight clipping/no 
clipping/blending/reconstruction, etc):

http://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/dcraw.1.html

By the way, a blown highlight in a RAW file is a hard max value, not a color 
value outside the limits of a particular color space the way it would be in a 
image file.

Still, I prefer a more interactive and visual process. Color, sharpening, 
contrast/microcontrast, noise reduction - all very much determined by how the 
image looks. Rawtherapee lets me come up with (say) base settings for a 
panorma's component images and apply them en masse, then tweak each image as 
needed, then batch convert.


David W. Jones
gnomeno...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Andreas Hirczy]

Greg 'groggy' Lehey  writes:

> On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 at  8:10:08 -0700, Albert Szostkiewicz wrote:
>> It streamlines simple work that has to be done without requirement
>> of 3rd party software in the process.
>
> It still requires mouse pushing.  If you're looking for automatic raw
> conversions, you can do that too with UFRaw, which has a batch mode.
> Read in your images, run ufraw-batch on them to produce TIFF output
> files, and you're ready to go.

I used to use this for conversion:
--
#!/bin/sh
# see 
# see 

for i in *.cr2; do
BASENAME=${i%.cr2}
dcraw -v -w -4 ${BASENAME}.cr2
convert -gamma 2.2 ${BASENAME}.ppm ${BASENAME}.tif && rm ${BASENAME}.ppm
exiftool -tagsfromfile ${BASENAME}.cr2 -overwrite_original_in_place 
-exif:all ${BASENAME}.tif
done
--

Best regards,
Andreas
-- 
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Institute of Theoretical and Computational Physicsfax: +43/316/873-10 8190
Petersgasse 16, A-8010 Grazmobile: +43/664/859 23 57

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Erik Krause]

Am 10.07.2018 um 17:10 schrieb Albert Szostkiewicz:

Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I am
hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With PtGui for
eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper exposure merge is
being applied. With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for conversion
into TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible mistake.


raw data is by no means image data, it's the raw reading from the sensor 
and it's awful. PTGui uses dcraw for conversion, which does a very basic 
job. Using dcraw you loose almost all benefits of shooting raw including 
correction of chromatic aberration, moiré, white balance, dead or hot 
pixels, highlight restoration or noise reduction. You might well get 
better images using jpeg straight from the camera. You don't get the 
full dynamic range either, since dcraw clips all channels to the lowest 
channel (thus avoiding a tint in clipped highlights). It is far better 
to use a decent and dedicated raw converter.


--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 at  8:10:08 -0700, Albert Szostkiewicz wrote:
> Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I
> am hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With
> PtGui for eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper
> exposure merge is being applied.

You can be sure that PTGui is simply converting the raw images to some
RGB format, possibly TIFF.  It sounds like you're not being left much
choice in the matter.

> With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for conversion into
> TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible mistake.

And more control.  Others may correct me, but I'd be surprised if
PTGui is performing the raw conversion itself.  Probably it's invoking
a different program.

> As much as I wish to stay with Linux (which is my main operating
> system) and Hougin Open software, currently I am forced to run PtGui
> via wine to do my job as expected.

Note that the Unix (and thus Linux) way is to have multiple programs,
each able to perform one function and perform it well.  It looks like
you're looking for the opposite.

> It streamlines simple work that has to be done without requirement
> of 3rd party software in the process.

It still requires mouse pushing.  If you're looking for automatic raw
conversions, you can do that too with UFRaw, which has a batch mode.
Read in your images, run ufraw-batch on them to produce TIFF output
files, and you're ready to go.

Just checked https://www.ptgui.com/features.html: yes, PTGui uses
dcraw to convert the images.  That's the same program that's behind
UFRaw.  The difference with Linux is that you have a choice of raw
conversion tools, and that's one of the main reasons for using raw
images in the first place.

Greg
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Albert Szostkiewicz]

Personally I am interested in stitching 360 full, true HDR images. I am
hoping to stitch and get as much of original data as I can. With PtGui for
eg. I am able to throw my Canon RAWs directly and proper exposure merge is
being applied. With Hugin I am forced to use 3rd party apps for conversion
into TIFF or other format witch adds one more step of possible mistake.
As much as I wish to stay with Linux (which is my main operating system)
and Hougin Open software, currently I am forced to run PtGui via wine to do
my job as expected. It streamlines simple work that has to be done without
requirement of 3rd party software in the process.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 4:20 PM David W. Jones  wrote:

> On July 9, 2018 3:55:21 AM HST, Marcel Brouillet 
> wrote:
>>
>> It shows my ignorance on what is in the raw format and what tasks the raw
>> processor does. This being out of scope (not hugin related) let's not
>> clutter this list, but I'd appreciate a recommended reading to understand
>> what I'm missing, if you have a good one.
>>
>> Thanks you either way.
>>
>>
>> Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 15:18:21 UTC+2, bugbear a écrit :
>>>
>>> How (on earth) does one perform spatial interpolation on raw data that
>>> hasn't been de-mosaic'd ?!
>>>
>>
> Here's a start at Wikipedia:
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
>
> David W. Jones
> gnomeno...@gmail.com
> wandering the landscape of god
> http://dancingtreefrog.com
>
> Sent from my Android device with F/LOSS K-9 Mail.
>
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[David W. Jones]

On July 9, 2018 3:55:21 AM HST, Marcel Brouillet  wrote:
>
>
>It shows my ignorance on what is in the raw format and what tasks the
>raw 
>processor does. This being out of scope (not hugin related) let's not 
>clutter this list, but I'd appreciate a recommended reading to
>understand 
>what I'm missing, if you have a good one.
>
>Thanks you either way.
>
>
>Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 15:18:21 UTC+2, bugbear a écrit :
>>
>> How (on earth) does one perform spatial interpolation on raw data
>that 
>> hasn't been de-mosaic'd ?! 
>>
>
>-- 
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Here's a start at Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

David W. Jones
gnomeno...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com

Sent from my Android device with F/LOSS K-9 Mail.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Gunter Königsmann]

Also how should we handle bad pixels?

T. Modes  schrieb am Mo., 9. Juli 2018, 21:18:

> Am Montag, 9. Juli 2018 16:02:06 UTC+2 schrieb nadv...@suse.cz:
>>
>> It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent channels
>> with transparency:
>>
>> source:
>>
>> RGRGRG
>> GBGBGB
>> RGRGRG
>>
>> to:
>>
>> RTRTRT
>> TT
>> RTRTRT
>>
>> TGTGTG
>> GTGTGT
>> TGTGTG
>>
>> TT
>> TBTBTB
>> TT
>>
>>
>> I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with nona
>> and enblend.
>>
>
>
> If you do it this way each color will get different interpolation for each
> color (because different alpha channels) and this will results in color
> seams.
> The next problem is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed.
> With the destroyed Bayer pattern it because impossible (or at least very
> difficult) for the RAW converter to demosaic the data now to get the final
> image.
>
> (An alternative approach would be to demosaic the image data, then remap
> the data and then mosaic the data again to get the RAW again. But then you
> will loose resolution. So this is a no go.)
>
> --
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> 
> .
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>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[T. Modes]

Am Montag, 9. Juli 2018 16:02:06 UTC+2 schrieb nadv...@suse.cz:
>
> It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent channels 
> with transparency: 
>
> source: 
>
> RGRGRG 
> GBGBGB 
> RGRGRG 
>
> to: 
>
> RTRTRT 
> TT 
> RTRTRT 
>
> TGTGTG 
> GTGTGT 
> TGTGTG 
>
> TT 
> TBTBTB 
> TT 
>
>
> I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with nona 
> and enblend. 
>
 

If you do it this way each color will get different interpolation for each 
color (because different alpha channels) and this will results in color 
seams.
The next problem is that after remapping the Bayer pattern is destroyed. 
With the destroyed Bayer pattern it because impossible (or at least very 
difficult) for the RAW converter to demosaic the data now to get the final 
image.

(An alternative approach would be to demosaic the image data, then remap 
the data and then mosaic the data again to get the RAW again. But then you 
will loose resolution. So this is a no go.)

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Vladimir Nadvornik]

On 07/09/2018 03:18 PM, bugbear wrote:
> Marcel Brouillet wrote:
>> so merging RAW files seems to have sense to me.
> 
> How (on earth) does one perform spatial interpolation on raw data that
> hasn't been de-mosaic'd ?!
> 
>   BugBear
> 

Hi,

when I think about it...

It might be possible to convert the mosaic data to independent channels
with transparency:

source:

RGRGRG
GBGBGB
RGRGRG

to:

RTRTRT
TT
RTRTRT

TGTGTG
GTGTGT
TGTGTG

TT
TBTBTB
TT


I don't see any principal problem with processing such images with nona
and enblend.
And if you do stack of multiple images shifted by 1 pixel, the result
could even have higher resolution than input.

Vladimir





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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Marcel Brouillet]

It shows my ignorance on what is in the raw format and what tasks the raw 
processor does. This being out of scope (not hugin related) let's not 
clutter this list, but I'd appreciate a recommended reading to understand 
what I'm missing, if you have a good one.

Thanks you either way.


Le lundi 9 juillet 2018 15:18:21 UTC+2, bugbear a écrit :
>
> How (on earth) does one perform spatial interpolation on raw data that 
> hasn't been de-mosaic'd ?! 
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[bugbear]

Marcel Brouillet wrote:

so merging RAW files seems to have sense to me.


How (on earth) does one perform spatial interpolation on raw data that
hasn't been de-mosaic'd ?!

 BugBear

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[hugin-ptx] Re: RAW support with hugin ?

[Marcel Brouillet]

All the answers to this post assumed the raw processing is done before the 
stitching (which would work on TIFF/JPG… files). I totally agree on the 
objections.

However, does it make sense to* combine raw files into a raw output*, that 
can further be processed in rawtherapy ?

Distortions, stitching, etc could presumably be done on raw data arrays in 
an equal manner as they would be done on pixels. Not ? In practice, there 
could be a prior-conversion into jpeg with fixed (low-relevant) processing 
parameters, just to get the stitching parameters (PTO) and 
previsualisation, but the stitcher would work on RAW files. Would absolute 
data values for one shot not have the same reference as for a different 
shot, and consequently merging files has no sense ? I understood that 
precisely RAW format leave the normalizing to the processor, recording 
brute sensor data, so merging RAW files seems to have sense to me.

My question is just theoretic and blunt curiosity. I'm not spending, nor 
asking anyone to spend time on this. It seems like a huge work to rewrite a 
stitcher, especially ending up writing one for as many different raw 
formats as exist (re-using rawtherapy file-opening library, presumably). 
Does it make sense at all ?

(Brings me to the question to start with : *why do people want RAW support 
in Hugin* ? because they find the workflow a pain ? or for technical and 
image quality reasons ?)

Regards,
Marcel.

Le mardi 3 juillet 2018 09:14:43 UTC+2, Albert Szostkiewicz a écrit :
>
> I saw similar topic from 4 years ago without any conclusion. Is where a 
> reason why Hugin is not supporting RAW formats? Any plans for near future ?
>
>

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