On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:38:15 +0100, R.S.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
999 times. Or times. Or 9 times. Everyone
would agree the more is the better - from security point of view.
So, should we overwrite 15 times or 999 times ? Please *justify* your
answer. vbg
Hi R.S.,
I enjoy your sense
Ed Gould wrote:
Radoslaw:
Some people (a lot) on this list are (or should be) concerned about data
destruction.
Yes. So what ?
If you are one of the few that are not concerned now but in [...]
Bad assumption. I am concerned. BTDT.
the future you may be asked (or involved) in such
The whole point of multiple write passes is that the physical head does not
write a track at the same exact physical location every time. With the
right equipment ( disk manufacturers and data recovery experts have it), you
can center the read head off to the side of the track, and read a value
Mike Bell wrote:
The whole point of multiple write passes is that the physical head does not
write a track at the same exact physical location every time. With the
right equipment ( disk manufacturers and data recovery experts have it), you
can center the read head off to the side of the track,
On 18 Feb 2008 08:38:41 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.)
wrote:
I read about it approx. 5 years ago, so it's not new for me.
I understand why multiple passes are better than single pass, but still
have no aswer how many times is good enough. Otherwise someone (official
entity) could say 999
R.S. (referring to Ed G) wrote:
While I understand every single word, I don't understand what's your
opinion.
Your mastery of English is *not* the problem ...
Making sense of Ed is beyond a good number (all ???) of us.
Shane ...
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:49:46 -, Van Dalsen, Herbie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On this note... We have about 5000 Double-(blue) and 3000 triple
density(green) Carts, due to the sensitivity of the data on them,
company policy prohibits us from transporting them to the mother ship
who is in the
Mike Baldwin wrote:
[...]
This involves transportation of the media to a
special incinerator that has waste-to-energy capability. Incineration takes
good care of any security concerns; the special incinerator is the best known
eco friendly solution.
IMHO the worst know eco friendly
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:47:20 +0100, R.S.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IMHO the worst know eco friendly solution. It strongly depends on the
kind of plastic, but usually the worst idea is to burn it and the best
what we can do with a plastic is to keep it. Of course it doesn't solve
a problem of data
IMHO the worst know eco friendly solution. It strongly depends on the kind of
plastic, but usually the worst idea is to burn it and the best what we can do
with a plastic is to keep it.
The burning of plastic, and other materials that emit toxic fumes, is no longer
an ecology problem, in
Kees,
The potential to read overwritten data comes from the fact that the heads
never perfectly line up in the same place twice. A write may write over
95% of the bits in a given track leaving a shadow of old data that can be
read - with great difficulty and very slowly, but it can be read.
, IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
In a message dated 2/11/2008 3:00:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Unless I missed a part of the discussion, all statements that
overwriting once is not good enough,
In a message dated 2/11/2008 3:00:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Unless I missed a part of the discussion, all statements that
overwriting once is not good enough, were based on rumours, assumptions,
theoretical possibilities and negative evidence (data is
Shmuel Metz , Seymour J. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/08/2008
at 09:36 AM, R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Don't you think, the magic numbers of the rewrites comes from
voodoo
(or black magic) rather than from technological
In [EMAIL PROTECTED],
on 02/08/2008
at 10:49 AM, Van Dalsen, Herbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On this note... We have about 5000 Double-(blue) and 3000 triple
density(green) Carts, due to the sensitivity of the data on them,
company policy prohibits us from transporting them to the mother ship
In [EMAIL PROTECTED],
on 02/11/2008
at 08:57 AM, Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Unless I missed a part of the discussion,
You missed the discussion of head alignment.There are also commercial
firms doing data recovery.
Is there some report, investigation, official statement
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/08/2008
at 09:36 AM, R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Don't you think, the magic numbers of the rewrites comes from voodoo
(or black magic) rather than from technological reasons ?
No.
Any disk taken (stolen) from DASD array contains part of
(IBM Mainframe Discussion List) wrote:
In a message dated 2/7/2008 12:27:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I believe someone on here said that the DOD said 15 writes over the
data set was good enough.
The latest (JUN 2001) DOD specification that I read on the
R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
(IBM Mainframe Discussion List) wrote:
In a message dated 2/7/2008 12:27:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I believe someone on here said that the DOD said 15 writes over the
data set was
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
On this note... We have about 5000 Double-(blue) and 3000 triple
density(green) Carts, due to the sensitivity of the data on them,
company policy prohibits us from transporting them to the mother ship
who is in the process to devouring us, even though they are
situations?
Regards
Herbie
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM
Sent: 08 Februarie 2008 08:50
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED
] Subject
.EDU Re: Safest way to destroy 3590
Carts(Data Erasure Products)
02/08/2008 06:21
On Feb 8, 2008, at 2:36 AM, R.S. wrote:
SNIP-
Gentlemen,
Don't you think, the magic numbers of the rewrites comes from
voodoo (or black magic) rather than from technological reasons ?
Any disk taken (stolen) from DASD array contains
R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
On this note... We have about 5000 Double-(blue) and 3000 triple
density(green) Carts, due to the sensitivity of the data on them,
company policy prohibits us from transporting them to the mother
Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM wrote:
[...]
We degaused some 5000 cartridges years ago before selling them to a
broker as used cartridges. Degausing erases the data, including the
label, so the tapes must be reinitialized but that is all.
Not in this case. 3590's are *unusable* after degaussing. The
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
--
Eric Bielefeld
Systems Programmer
Aviva USA
Des Moines, Iowa
515-645-5153
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message
In a message dated 2/7/2008 12:27:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I believe someone on here said that the DOD said 15 writes over the
data set was good enough.
The latest (JUN 2001) DOD specification that I read on the Internet said six
times is enough, but
Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] För Ed Gould
Skickat: den 6 februari 2008 06:53
Till: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Ämne: Re: Data Erasure Products
On Feb 5, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/04/2008
at 11:18 PM, Ed Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 11:15 +0100, Thomas Berg wrote:
Seriously, at some level You can be practically certain that
the data cannot be resurrected, NSA or not NSA.
I always work on the basis that if the spooks (any nationality) are
*really* interested in your data, they already have it.
Well
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/05/2008
at 11:53 PM, Ed Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Of course there are. But as long as there is a person left on earth
there would be attempt(s) to devaporize (I know there is no such word)
but if Star Trek can materialize someone and dematerialize someone
On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
--SNIP
You made the point that someone would try well enough. What you
didn't do
was to provide a reason to believe that there was the remotest
chance of
success. Appeals to a TV series are not
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/04/2008
at 11:18 PM, Ed Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I am a little skeptical about this seeing as how the PC world
doesn't to be really interested in this issue.
There are several major issues that the PC world doesn't seem to be
interested in. A failure to
On Feb 5, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/04/2008
at 11:18 PM, Ed Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I am a little skeptical about this seeing as how the PC world
doesn't to be really interested in this issue.
There are several major issues that
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:01:10 -0600, Ed Gould
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I vaguely remember a story here I cannot remember where I heard it
(it may be an urban legend).
*SUPPOSEDLY* the CIA (NSA??) was able to read a disk even after data
has been written on it, even after 10 or 11 times.
Hi Ed,
I
for a 100% increase in fluid storage.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ed Gould
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:48 AM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN
On 4 Feb 2008 10:15:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Baldwin) wrote:
*SUPPOSEDLY* the CIA (NSA??) was able to read a disk even after data
has been written on it, even after 10 or 11 times.
Hi Ed,
I thought it interesting that you mentioned 11 times.
In a customer security standard document
On Feb 4, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Diehl, Gary (MVSSupport) wrote:
Ed,
I've been told the same thing. I worked SBLC for the AF, and we were
told that data could be recovered after up to 7 rewrites, and the
methodology was based on signal strength analysis. I.E. You read the
sector of a hard disk
On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:14 PM, Mike Baldwin wrote:
--SNIP---
Hi Ed,
I thought it interesting that you mentioned 11 times.
In a customer security standard document (that I cannot quote),
that refers
to U.S. DoD standards, when overwriting at least 12
this might be something like overwritting a specific
number of times with (different) random data ... nist standard:
http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-88/NISTSP800-88_rev1.pdf
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#47 Data Erasure Products
oh, and note recent article:
'Erased
Of SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Niall
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Data Erasure Products
How about encrypting the volume in its entirety before deletion?
I've been through the DR/deletion exercise a few times, and used an in-
house
utility
On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:48 AM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Niall wrote:
How about encrypting the volume in its entirety before deletion?
I've been through the DR/deletion exercise a few times, and used an
in-house
utility to overwrite the disk. If available, however, would
encryption not
be a
I have used FDR Erase. It is easy to install and use. We last used it
after a DR test.
Not too expensive.
Pat Mihalec
Rush University Medical Center
Senior System Programmer
(312) 942-8386
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
For IBM-MAIN
On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:48 AM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Niall wrote:
How about encrypting the volume in its entirety before deletion?
I've been through the DR/deletion exercise a few times, and used an
in-house
utility to overwrite the disk. If available, however, would
encryption not
be a
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pat Mihalec
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 7:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
I have used FDR Erase. It is easy to install and use. We last
used
-Original Message-
Ed
I have worked at several top secret installations in the past
and I was told that they take the old DASD and drop them in a
acid bath then cut them up.
Never saw it happened so not totally sure it was done or not.
George Fogg
Physical destruction of
Unless there is some weird legislative standard which says that encryption is
fine for transmission of data over open IP networks, but is not fine for
resundant data held on permanent storage.
I'm interpreting this from a Canadian perspective, but after working for a
company headquartered in
I've heard from my Amdahl days that the decommissioned machines had to be
destroyed rather than returned for their parts value - and that the destruction
was pretty definitive.
But none of these anecdotes answer my question: would you feel happy after,
for instance, a DR test, to know that the
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Niall
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 10:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
SNIP
But none of these anecdotes answer my question
There are several data protection standards applying over here in Europe, but
I would guess that I could at least defend myself to SOX auditors if I chose
to use encryption in the scenarios I described. Alas, your mileage may vary in
all of these things.
My interest in the subject is at the
On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:29 PM, George Fogg wrote:
I have worked at several top secret installations in the past and I
was told
that they take the old DASD and drop them in a acid bath then cut
them up.
Never saw it happened so not totally sure it was done or not.
George Fogg
George,
On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Stephen Mednick wrote:
--SNIP
The downside of physically destroying the media as against using a
certified
erase solution to remove the contents is that the obsolete storage
media can
never be acquired on a lease-basis given that the box
On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:15 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Niall wrote:
---SNIP---
Unless there is some weird legislative standard which says that
encryption is
fine for transmission of data over open IP networks, but is not
fine for
resundant data held on permanent
Stephan:
It comes down purely (IMO) how valuable the data is. If its
nuclear bomb data (or the like) then I would suggest that
cost is not an issue.
Ed,
it's not a case of how valuable the data is, more importantly it's to do with
what the security classification is that has been
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stephen Mednick) writes:
it's not a case of how valuable the data is, more importantly it's to
do with what the security classification is that has been assigned to
the data. Depending on the data's security classification dictates the
media overwriting/sanitisation method
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:10:06 -, Van Dalsen, Herbie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Not sure what's going to happen to the 3590 carts...
Some examples of what can be done, depending on requirements:
- If re-deploying 3590's, the Data Security Erase command can be used. This
is available from a
?
Herbie
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stephen Mednick
Sent: 12 Januarie 2008 10:07 nm
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any
products in the market
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Van Dalsen, Herbie
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 3:05 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Data Erasure Products
My question on this topic is the following...
If you
Mark Jacobs wrote:
If you want more or less certified method, you need to buy something.
Degausser is most certified, but it destroys your disks. g
Somewhat tangential to the issue of mainframe drives, it is interesting
that, for ATA PC drives, there is another alternative. See:
Hawkins
Sent: 14 Januarie 2008 03:20 nm
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
Herbie,
A format as you describe will leave the data old data unreadable, and
that
will probably suffice in most cases. However it is not actually
shredded,
and the prior contents of the drives can
.
Ron
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Van Dalsen, Herbie
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Data Erasure Products
Thanks Ron,
I was hoping that the formatting
Mark Jacobs wrote:
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
If you want more or less certified method, you need to buy something.
Degausser is most certified, but it destroys your disks. g
If you need reasonable
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any
products in the market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything in the CBT archive for DASD, just some
tape erasure programs.
* *
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Tampa, FL
There are any
Tom Moulder wrote:
If you have EMC DASD, then you can contact them for information about three
erasures offerings. The offerings are from low to high in terms of data
erasure certification and government clearances. The highest certification
level is an internal program that insures all data
:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Jacobs
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Data Erasure Products
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything in the CBT archive
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything in the CBT archive for DASD, just some tape
erasure programs.
* *
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Tampa, FL
Riley: Find the next number in the
Larry Crilley wrote:
Add the XTINCT product from Dino-Software to your information gathering. We
began advertising this tool in last months z-journal.
Larry Crilley
Dino-Software Corporation
800.480.DINO
412.366.3566
www.dino-software.com
Dino-Software Utilities
T-REX - Superior
, 2008 12:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
Richbourg, Claude wrote:
There is another one that we have used.
It is by NEWERA software and it is, 'DASD FAST ERASE'. It works good
as
you can do as many passes over the data with different patterns as
needed.
HTH
Richbourg, Claude wrote:
There is another one that we have used.
It is by NEWERA software and it is, 'DASD FAST ERASE'. It works good as
you can do as many passes over the data with different patterns as
needed.
HTH.
Regards,
Claude Richbourg
I just went on their website and the only
Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Jacobs
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Data Erasure Products
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything
PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Jacobs
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Data Erasure Products
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything in the CBT archive
/Recovery processes, but it enhances them.
gabe
-
Subject: Re: Data Erasure Products
There is another one that we have used.
It is by NEWERA software and it is, 'DASD FAST ERASE'. It works good as
you can do as many passes over the data with different patterns as
needed.
HTH.
Regards
On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Mark Jacobs wrote:
Outside of FDRERASE and good old ICKDSF are there any products in the
market that can erase data from mainframe DASD?
I didn't see anything in the CBT archive for DASD, just some tape
erasure programs.
* *
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer
-snip--
FDRERASE is from a reputable company and IIRC it reasonably cheap. I
looked at it a while ago and I thought it was a good buy. Plus the
Innovation people stand behind their software, thats important when
you are talking about security.
LUNs and volumes at the same time.
Ron
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Moulder
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:49 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Data Erasure Products
If you have EMC DASD
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