Re: Question on BUILDMCS

[Binyamin Dissen]

The BUILDMCS will run w/o the DISTLIBs, but you will need to preserve the
DISTLIBs to get source for the RELFILEs. The target stuff would be built by
the SMP apply process.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 20:03:17 + Allan Staller
<0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

:>Classification: Confidential
:>
:>I am in the process of performing a BUILDMCS for the 1st time. This is to 
preserve some products no longer orderable from IBM.
:>I have RTFM'ed the manuals (SMP/E User's Guide and SMP/E Commands), and the 
actual requirements are unclear.
:>
:>When I look at the SMPPUNCH I see stuff like:
:>++MAC(x)  distlib( )  fromdsn() number(2) vol()  .
:>
:>I presume number(x) is the relfile number AND fromdsn is the current location 
of the item.
:>
:>Do I need to physically preserve the current target/distlibs for this product 
to the build MCS can be executed?

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question on BUILDMCS

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Thanks Dave,

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jousma, David
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2024 2:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question on BUILDMCS

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Just run the buildmcs.  It will use those files to copy from to create the 
relfiles from, when received into the new environment.   Make sure all 
maintenance has been applied.  Many folks run the buildmcs for the fmid in the 
DLIB environment.

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Allan Staller <0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Date: Monday, February 26, 2024 at 3:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Question on BUILDMCS
Classification: Confidential I am in the process of performing a BUILDMCS for 
the 1st time. This is to preserve some products no longer orderable from IBM. I 
have RTFM'ed the manuals (SMP/E User's Guide and SMP/E Commands), and the 
actual requirements


Classification: Confidential



I am in the process of performing a BUILDMCS for the 1st time. This is to 
preserve some products no longer orderable from IBM.

I have RTFM'ed the manuals (SMP/E User's Guide and SMP/E Commands), and the 
actual requirements are unclear.



When I look at the SMPPUNCH I see stuff like:

++MAC(x)  distlib( )  fromdsn() number(2) vol()  .



I presume number(x) is the relfile number AND fromdsn is the current location 
of the item.



Do I need to physically preserve the current target/distlibs for this product 
to the build MCS can be executed?



Thanks in advance,

::DISCLAIMER::



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Re: Question on BUILDMCS

[Jousma, David]

Just run the buildmcs.  It will use those files to copy from to create the 
relfiles from, when received into the new environment.   Make sure all 
maintenance has been applied.  Many folks run the buildmcs for the fmid in the 
DLIB environment.

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Allan Staller <0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Date: Monday, February 26, 2024 at 3:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Question on BUILDMCS
Classification: Confidential I am in the process of performing a BUILDMCS for 
the 1st time. This is to preserve some products no longer orderable from IBM. I 
have RTFM'ed the manuals (SMP/E User's Guide and SMP/E Commands), and the 
actual requirements


Classification: Confidential



I am in the process of performing a BUILDMCS for the 1st time. This is to 
preserve some products no longer orderable from IBM.

I have RTFM'ed the manuals (SMP/E User's Guide and SMP/E Commands), and the 
actual requirements are unclear.



When I look at the SMPPUNCH I see stuff like:

++MAC(x)  distlib( )  fromdsn() number(2) vol()  .



I presume number(x) is the relfile number AND fromdsn is the current location 
of the item.



Do I need to physically preserve the current target/distlibs for this product 
to the build MCS can be executed?



Thanks in advance,

::DISCLAIMER::



The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended 
for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be 
secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, 
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The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore 
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opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and 
may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any 
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Re: Question

[Phil Smith III]

Yes, the Serena stuff is part of the divestiture to Rocket.

Request: more extensive Subject: lines than "Question". Makes the list much 
more useful.


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Re: Question

[Steve Beaver]

I hate one-Drive but I'm stuck with it at the office


Regards,


Steve Beaver

No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he 
desires for himself. 




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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of ITschak Mugzach
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question

Same here on Mac. One drive is a pain...

*| **Itschak Mugzach | Director | SecuriTeam Software **|** IronSphere
Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for Z/OS, zLinux
and IBM I **|  *

*|* *Email**: i_mugz...@securiteam.co.il **|* *Mob**: +972 522 986404 **|*
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בתאריך יום ג׳, 20 בפבר׳ 2024 ב-21:28 מאת Steve Thompson :

> Yes. If you go this route, and you have your own file server(s)
> and backup systems, the first thing you do is uninstall ONEDRIVE.
>
> You may find that after doing this, you may have issues with Word
> and XL. (we did with W10)
>
> If you do not, it will back up various folders to the M/S cloud.
> And I think once you cross the limit (not sure what it is), you
> may start getting billed by M/$ for space for all your data it is
> backing up for you.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 2/20/2024 1:36 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:
> > I have run MS Office 2010 for years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is
> >
> > No more MS Office.  I also have my own domain for email
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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>

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Re: Question

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

I use Office 2013 when I have a choice.
I use Office 2016 on some company equipment, little difference.
Sometimes I'm forced to use Office 365 on another company equipment and 
I hate it. Again - it is not a revolution. I it is not big enhancement. 
I it big mess. Big change in user interface to hide the functions your 
already know in different places.


I also keep virtual machine with Office 2003 or XP to have possibility 
to edit my drawings created in .doc format. "Fortunately" MS does not 
care about compatibility and a lot of my work would remain uneditable or 
even unreadable (word 2.0).


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 20.02.2024 o 19:36, Steve Beaver pisze:

I have run MS Office 2010 for years.

  


Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is

No more MS Office.  I also have my own domain for email

  


Thanks

  


Steve

  



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Re: Question

[Seymour J Metz]

My work laptop is locked down so I have no choice. On my personal machines I 
use (Libre|Open)Office.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Beaver <050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Question

I have run MS Office 2010 for years.



Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is

No more MS Office.  I also have my own domain for email



Thanks



Steve




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Re: Question

[ITschak Mugzach]

Same here on Mac. One drive is a pain...

*| **Itschak Mugzach | Director | SecuriTeam Software **|** IronSphere
Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for Z/OS, zLinux
and IBM I **|  *

*|* *Email**: i_mugz...@securiteam.co.il **|* *Mob**: +972 522 986404 **|*
*Skype**: ItschakMugzach **|* *Web**: www.Securiteam.co.il  **|*





בתאריך יום ג׳, 20 בפבר׳ 2024 ב-21:28 מאת Steve Thompson :

> Yes. If you go this route, and you have your own file server(s)
> and backup systems, the first thing you do is uninstall ONEDRIVE.
>
> You may find that after doing this, you may have issues with Word
> and XL. (we did with W10)
>
> If you do not, it will back up various folders to the M/S cloud.
> And I think once you cross the limit (not sure what it is), you
> may start getting billed by M/$ for space for all your data it is
> backing up for you.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 2/20/2024 1:36 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:
> > I have run MS Office 2010 for years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is
> >
> > No more MS Office.  I also have my own domain for email
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Question

[Steve Thompson]

Yes. If you go this route, and you have your own file server(s) 
and backup systems, the first thing you do is uninstall ONEDRIVE.


You may find that after doing this, you may have issues with Word 
and XL. (we did with W10)


If you do not, it will back up various folders to the M/S cloud. 
And I think once you cross the limit (not sure what it is), you 
may start getting billed by M/$ for space for all your data it is 
backing up for you.


Steve Thompson

On 2/20/2024 1:36 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:

I have run MS Office 2010 for years.

  


Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is

No more MS Office.  I also have my own domain for email

  


Thanks

  


Steve

  



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Re: Question

[Gord Tomlin]

On 2024-02-20 13:36 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:

Has anyone in the group Subscribed to Office 365 since there is

No more MS Office.


I dumped MS Office for LibreOffice years ago, and it does everything I 
need, including good compatibility with MS Office documents. Haven't 
missed MS Office and have no need for Office 365.


--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: Question

[Bruce Hewson]

In addition to the IBM supplied python, we also have Rocket's SMP packaged Open 
AppDev for Z.

ant 
bash
cert-bundle 
cffi
cryptography
curl
diffutils   
exceptiongroup  
gettext 
git 
gzip
iniconfig   
less
libssh2 
localedata  
make
ncurses 
nghttp2 
nghttp2 
numpy   
openssl 
packaging   
perl
perl-alien-build
perl-alien-gmp  
perl-alien-m4   
perl-bit-vector 
perl-capture-tiny   
perl-carp   
perl-carp-clan  
perl-convert-ber
perl-convert-ebcdic 
perl-crypt-curve2551
perl-crypt-idea 
perl-cryptx 
perl-date-calc  
perl-dbd-db2
perl-dbd-jdbc   
perl-dbi
perl-devel-checklib 
perl-ffi-checklib   
perl-file-chdir 
perl-file-homedir   
perl-file-which 
perl-importer   
perl-math-gmp   
perl-math-int64 
perl-mojo-dom58 
perl-net-sftp   
perl-net-ssh-perl   
perl-os390-stdio
perl-path-tiny  
perl-pathtools  
perl-pkgconfig  
perl-scope-guard
perl-sort-versions  
perl-string-crc32   
perl-sub-info   
perl-term-table 
perl-termreadkey
perl-test-needs 
perl-test-simple
perl-test2-v0   
perl-uri
php 
pip 
pluggy  
pycparser   
pytest  
python  
sed 
setuptools  
six 
sudo
sudo_nokrb  
terminfo
tomli   
unzip   
vim 
xz  
zip   
zlib

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Re: Question

[Frank Swarbrick]

That is interesting indeed.  Thanks.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Lionel B. Dyck <057b0ee5a853-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2024 11:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Question

I got this update from an IBM contact - hope it helps:

"I'm not sure if the question was answered, but any Python from Rocket at the 
3.10 or later level is the IBM SDK."


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck
System Z Enthusiasts Discord: 
https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question

Someone will correct me if/where I'm wrong.

Open Enterprise SDK for Python - Just python. Comes with pip and virtualenv or 
venv, which are included in Python distribution these days.
pip = package manager.
virtualenv / venv = environment manager.

Rocket Python = Rocket delivers the open source tools it delivers through 
Anaconda, which is a Python environment + package manager.
I haven't looked but I believe they deliver Bash, and some other tools also via 
Anaconda "channels".

ZOSOpen Tools's Python = It's an empty wrapper. At the moment, it just exists 
to add itself as a dependency to any Python project you may want to port.
All it does is check if Python exists in your sys.

Upstreaming zOS-relevant bits of code to Python, I think, is happening 
completely separate from ZOSOpen Tools's Python.
Some of it may well be tied with "Python AI Toolkit for Z".
PATZ = Close to OE SDK for Python, but delivered via an IBM hosted & managed 
repository manager (ex: JFrog Artifactory, Sonatype Nexus).
The difference is, PATZ is also a source for python packages that have zOS 
support (+ acceleration where possible I think) added.
There's also the layer of safety of it coming from an IBM "stash" rather than 
pypi.org directly.
pypi = the "stash" where "pip install thing" will get a package from, by 
default.




On Thursday, February 8th, 2024 at 00:01, Rick Troth  wrote:

> The closest standard is Python's "ctypes".
> Now ... some of the guides I have read say that CTYPES only works with
> C, but I've found that (within limits) LE calling convention works
> well with other languages, not just C.
>
> In a previous life, I was able to call C from Python (the point being
> "to call /native/") without any special rigging other than CTYPES
> (included w Python).
>
> -- R; <><
>
>
>
> On 2/7/24 12:32, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:
>
> > Add to that question how does the z/OS Open Tools port of python
> > compare to Rockets and to the IBM Open Enterprise SDK?
> >
> > Lionel B. Dyck <><
> > Github:https://github.com/lbdyck
> > System Z Enthusiasts Discord:
> > https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597
> >
> > “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is
> > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - -
> > John Wooden
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu On
> > Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:30 AM
> > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> >
> > So here's a curious question. Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python
> > and the Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?
> >
> > Frank
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu on
> > behalf of Peter sylvesterpeter.sylves...@gmail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> >
> > Yes, from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)
> >
> > Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59)
> > [Clang
> > 14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] on zos On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > : >python
> > > Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023,
> > > 05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos Type "help", "copyright", "credits"
> > > or "license" for more information
> > > On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:
&

Re: Question

[Henri Kuiper]

Using python 3.11 'in production' (the IBM version)
STC's running flask applications in a 'virtual environment'

Looking to exploit the 'overlay fileSystem' soon to not have to have the
'bin/activate' in the startup process :)

will share some 'findings' at my SHARE Orlando session coming March :)




[image: __tpx__]
[image: photo] 

Henri Kuiper
Chief Technology Officer, CTO

[image: linkedin] 

* P * +31 (0) 6392 19574 <+31+(0)+6392+19574>   * W * mainframesociety.com

* E * he...@mainframesociety.com *M *Book a Google Meet




On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:48, Ed Jaffe  wrote:

> On 2/6/2024 10:47 AM, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> > : >python
> > Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023,
> > 05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> > >>>
>
> Just to be clear, we are running FMID HAMB3B0 "IBM Open Enterprise SDK
> for Python".
>
>
> --
> Phoenix Software International
> Edward E. Jaffe
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
>
>
>
> 
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Re: Question

[Ed Jaffe]

On 2/6/2024 10:47 AM, Ed Jaffe wrote:

: >python
Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023, 
05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos

Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>


Just to be clear, we are running FMID HAMB3B0 "IBM Open Enterprise SDK 
for Python".



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Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
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Re: Question

[Lionel B. Dyck]

I got this update from an IBM contact - hope it helps:

"I'm not sure if the question was answered, but any Python from Rocket at the 
3.10 or later level is the IBM SDK."


Lionel B. Dyck <>< 
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck
System Z Enthusiasts Discord: 
https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question

Someone will correct me if/where I'm wrong.

Open Enterprise SDK for Python - Just python. Comes with pip and virtualenv or 
venv, which are included in Python distribution these days.
pip = package manager.
virtualenv / venv = environment manager.

Rocket Python = Rocket delivers the open source tools it delivers through 
Anaconda, which is a Python environment + package manager.
I haven't looked but I believe they deliver Bash, and some other tools also via 
Anaconda "channels".

ZOSOpen Tools's Python = It's an empty wrapper. At the moment, it just exists 
to add itself as a dependency to any Python project you may want to port.
All it does is check if Python exists in your sys.

Upstreaming zOS-relevant bits of code to Python, I think, is happening 
completely separate from ZOSOpen Tools's Python.
Some of it may well be tied with "Python AI Toolkit for Z".
PATZ = Close to OE SDK for Python, but delivered via an IBM hosted & managed 
repository manager (ex: JFrog Artifactory, Sonatype Nexus).
The difference is, PATZ is also a source for python packages that have zOS 
support (+ acceleration where possible I think) added.
There's also the layer of safety of it coming from an IBM "stash" rather than 
pypi.org directly.
pypi = the "stash" where "pip install thing" will get a package from, by 
default.




On Thursday, February 8th, 2024 at 00:01, Rick Troth  wrote:

> The closest standard is Python's "ctypes".
> Now ... some of the guides I have read say that CTYPES only works with 
> C, but I've found that (within limits) LE calling convention works 
> well with other languages, not just C.
> 
> In a previous life, I was able to call C from Python (the point being 
> "to call /native/") without any special rigging other than CTYPES 
> (included w Python).
> 
> -- R; <><
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/7/24 12:32, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:
> 
> > Add to that question how does the z/OS Open Tools port of python 
> > compare to Rockets and to the IBM Open Enterprise SDK?
> > 
> > Lionel B. Dyck <><
> > Github:https://github.com/lbdyck
> > System Z Enthusiasts Discord:
> > https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597
> > 
> > “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is 
> > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - 
> > John Wooden
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu On 
> > Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:30 AM 
> > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> > 
> > So here's a curious question. Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python 
> > and the Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu on 
> > behalf of Peter sylvesterpeter.sylves...@gmail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> > IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> > 
> > Yes, from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)
> > 
> > Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) 
> > [Clang
> > 14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] on zos On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes.
> > > 
> > > : >python
> > > Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023,
> > > 05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos Type "help", "copyright", "credits"
> > > or "license" for more information
> > > On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > -- For IBM-MA

Re: Question

[kekronbekron]

Someone will correct me if/where I'm wrong.

Open Enterprise SDK for Python - Just python. Comes with pip and virtualenv or 
venv, which are included in Python distribution these days.
pip = package manager.
virtualenv / venv = environment manager.

Rocket Python = Rocket delivers the open source tools it delivers through 
Anaconda, which is a Python environment + package manager.
I haven't looked but I believe they deliver Bash, and some other tools also via 
Anaconda "channels".

ZOSOpen Tools's Python = It's an empty wrapper. At the moment, it just exists 
to add itself as a dependency to any Python project you may want to port.
All it does is check if Python exists in your sys.

Upstreaming zOS-relevant bits of code to Python, I think, is happening 
completely separate from ZOSOpen Tools's Python.
Some of it may well be tied with "Python AI Toolkit for Z".
PATZ = Close to OE SDK for Python, but delivered via an IBM hosted & managed 
repository manager (ex: JFrog Artifactory, Sonatype Nexus).
The difference is, PATZ is also a source for python packages that have zOS 
support (+ acceleration where possible I think) added.
There's also the layer of safety of it coming from an IBM "stash" rather than 
pypi.org directly.
pypi = the "stash" where "pip install thing" will get a package from, by 
default.




On Thursday, February 8th, 2024 at 00:01, Rick Troth  wrote:

> The closest standard is Python's "ctypes".
> Now ... some of the guides I have read say that CTYPES only works with
> C, but I've found that (within limits) LE calling convention works well
> with other languages, not just C.
> 
> In a previous life, I was able to call C from Python (the point being
> "to call /native/") without any special rigging other than CTYPES
> (included w Python).
> 
> -- R; <><
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/7/24 12:32, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:
> 
> > Add to that question how does the z/OS Open Tools port of python compare to
> > Rockets and to the IBM Open Enterprise SDK?
> > 
> > Lionel B. Dyck <><
> > Github:https://github.com/lbdyck
> > System Z Enthusiasts Discord:
> > https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597
> > 
> > “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you
> > are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu On Behalf Of
> > Frank Swarbrick
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:30 AM
> > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> > 
> > So here's a curious question. Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python and
> > the Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion listibm-m...@listserv.ua.edu on behalf of
> > Peter sylvesterpeter.sylves...@gmail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM
> > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Question
> > 
> > Yes, from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)
> > 
> > Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) [Clang
> > 14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] on zos On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes.
> > > 
> > > : >python
> > > Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023,
> > > 05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos Type "help", "copyright", "credits"
> > > or "license" for more information
> > > On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > 
> > --
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> 
> 
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Re: Question

[Rick Troth]

The closest standard is Python's "ctypes".
Now ... some of the guides I have read say that CTYPES only works with 
C, but I've found that (within limits) LE calling convention works well 
with other languages, not just C.


In a previous life, I was able to call C from Python (the point being 
"to call /native/") without any special rigging other than CTYPES 
(included w Python).


-- R; <><


On 2/7/24 12:32, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:

Add to that question how does the z/OS Open Tools port of python compare to
Rockets and to the IBM Open Enterprise SDK?


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Github:https://github.com/lbdyck
System Z Enthusiasts Discord:
https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:30 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question

So here's a curious question.  Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python and
the Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?

Frank

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Peter Sylvester
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU  
Subject: Re: Question

Yes,  from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)

Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) [Clang
14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] on zos On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:

Yes.

: >python
Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023,
05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos Type "help", "copyright", "credits"
or "license" for more information
On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:

Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?


Steve



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Re: Question

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Add to that question how does the z/OS Open Tools port of python compare to
Rockets and to the IBM Open Enterprise SDK?


Lionel B. Dyck <>< 
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck
System Z Enthusiasts Discord:
https://discord.gg/system-z-enthusiasts-880322471608344597

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Frank Swarbrick
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2024 11:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question

So here's a curious question.  Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python and
the Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?

Frank

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Peter Sylvester 
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Question

Yes,  from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)

Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) [Clang
14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] on zos On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> Yes.
>
> : >python
> Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023, 
> 05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos Type "help", "copyright", "credits" 
> or "license" for more information
> >>>
>
> On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:
>> Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?
>>
>>
>> Steve



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Re: Question

[Frank Swarbrick]

So here's a curious question.  Are IBM Open Enterprise SDK for Python and the 
Python from Rocket Software basically the same, or no?

Frank

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter Sylvester 
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 11:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Question

Yes,  from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)

Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) [Clang 
14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)]
on zos
On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:
> Yes.
>
> : >python
> Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023, 05:46:13) 
> [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information
> >>>
>
> On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:
>> Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?
>>
>>
>> Steve



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Re: Question

[Peter Sylvester]

Yes,  from the IBM pax installation. And a bit of pipifax. :-)

Python 3.12.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.12:ef647e3673, Oct 31 2023, 19:02:59) [Clang 14.0.0 (build 1465bdb)] 
on zos

On 06/02/2024 19:47, Ed Jaffe wrote:

Yes.

: >python
Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023, 05:46:13) 
[Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information
>>>

On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:

Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?


Steve




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Re: Question

[Farley, Peter]

Yes.

$ python -VV
Python 3.11.0 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11:2b6da3c0f0, Dec  2 2022, 05:55:59) [Clang 
14.0.0 ]

This is on z/OS V2.5.  Why do you ask?

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 1:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Question


Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?



Steve

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Re: Question

[Ed Jaffe]

Yes.

: >python
Python 3.11.4 (heads/pyz_dev-3.11.ziip:39640ccf4b, Jul 15 2023, 
05:46:13) [Clang 14.0.0 ] on zos

Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>

On 2/6/2024 10:15 AM, Steve Beaver wrote:

Does anyone have Python installed in your shop?

  


Steve



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Re: Question on SSRV entries in system trace table

[Mike Shaw]

Thank you Jim (and Binyamin). I learned something here by examining the
prior PC trace entry.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.


On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 12:32 AM Jim Mulder  wrote:

>   We don't want to waste the time and space.  The caller information is in
> the preceding PC trace entry.
>
> Jim Mulder
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Mike Shaw
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 5:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Question on SSRV entries in system trace table
>
> Anyone,
>
> The doc on SSRV trace table entries in the "z/OS MVS Diagnosis: Tools and
> Service Aids" pub says this:
>
> PSW- ADDRESS-return--:
>
> o For PC/AUTH, supervisor control, and task management: Caller's return
> address if the service was entered by a branch; 0 if the service was
> entered by a PC instruction
>
> In a dump I see that a specific IARV64 REQUEST=GETSTOR macro invocation
> generates a PC instruction and there is no PSW information in that trace
> table entry. Ok. The doc is correct.
>
> Does anyone know WHY there is no PSW saved in SSRV trace entries for
> non-branch-entry system service calls? It makes diagnosis of errors more
> difficult...
>
> Mike Shaw
> MVS/QuickRef Support Group
> Chicago-Soft, Ltd.
>
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Re: Question on SSRV entries in system trace table

[Binyamin Dissen]

I would have to go back to a dump, but I don't recall having any issues in
this area. Perhaps it is in a different trace entry?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:38:40 -0500 Mike Shaw  wrote:

:>The doc on SSRV trace table entries in the "z/OS MVS Diagnosis: Tools and
:>Service Aids" pub says this:

:>PSW- ADDRESS-return--:

:>o For PC/AUTH, supervisor control, and task management: Caller's
:>return address if the service was entered by a branch; 0 if the
:>service was entered by a PC instruction

:>In a dump I see that a specific IARV64 REQUEST=GETSTOR macro invocation
:>generates a PC instruction and there is no PSW information in that trace
:>table entry. Ok. The doc is correct.

:>Does anyone know WHY there is no PSW saved in SSRV trace entries for
:>non-branch-entry system service calls? It makes diagnosis of errors more
:>difficult...

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question on SSRV entries in system trace table

[Jim Mulder]

  We don't want to waste the time and space.  The caller information is in the 
preceding PC trace entry.

Jim Mulder

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 5:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Question on SSRV entries in system trace table

Anyone,

The doc on SSRV trace table entries in the "z/OS MVS Diagnosis: Tools and 
Service Aids" pub says this:

PSW- ADDRESS-return--:

o For PC/AUTH, supervisor control, and task management: Caller's return address 
if the service was entered by a branch; 0 if the service was entered by a PC 
instruction

In a dump I see that a specific IARV64 REQUEST=GETSTOR macro invocation 
generates a PC instruction and there is no PSW information in that trace table 
entry. Ok. The doc is correct.

Does anyone know WHY there is no PSW saved in SSRV trace entries for 
non-branch-entry system service calls? It makes diagnosis of errors more 
difficult...

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.

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Auto: Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Frederic Mancini]

Je suis absent du 02 janvier 2024 au 05 janvier 2024 inclus.

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Tom Marchant]

If I were you I wouldn't advertise to the world that I have an integrity 
exposure.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 17:25:03 -0600, Steve Beaver  wrote:

>I have the code to turn on the
>JSCBAUTH however it is a SVC

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Peter Relson]

>Binyamin wrote
:>
:>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
:>

:>Everyone I know would consider that to be an address space for which the 
jobstep program is not both linkedited AC=1 and gotten from an APF-authorized 
concatenation, and is not a system key address space (as could be defined in 
such places as the program properties table).

In the context of SRB?


I'd say "yes" (or "not applicable" since this is about an address space, not 
about whether a work unit is or is not currently running in a system state - 
which I would characterize as supervisor state or PSW key 0-7). SRBs (key 0 
supervisor state typically) can run in unauthorized address spaces. The 
authorization of the address space is not related to the authorization of an 
SRB running within that address space.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm not aware of any IBM documentation that refers to a dispatching unit as 
authorized or unauthorized. Nor can I imagine any meaning for "unauthorized SRB 
code".

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Binyamin Dissen 
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2023 11:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question about  IEAMSCHD

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:50:45 + Peter Relson  wrote:

:>Binyamin wrote
:>
:>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
:>

:>Everyone I know would consider that to be an address space for which the 
jobstep program is not both linkedited AC=1 and gotten from an APF-authorized 
concatenation, and is not a system key address space (as could be defined in 
such places as the program properties table).

In the context of SRB?

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com/

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:50:45 + Peter Relson  wrote:

:>Binyamin wrote
:>
:>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
:>

:>Everyone I know would consider that to be an address space for which the 
jobstep program is not both linkedited AC=1 and gotten from an APF-authorized 
concatenation, and is not a system key address space (as could be defined in 
such places as the program properties table).

In the context of SRB?

--
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http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Peter Relson]

Paul D wrote

"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the
scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different
program that is accessible from the target address space, or
in the common storage together with the scheduling code."


This is nothing more than a statement that you cannot have the SRB routine be 
in the private storage of the address space of the scheduler in such a case.
The SRB routine has to be addressable in the target address space and thus can 
be in the private storage of the target address space or can be in common 
storage. If you want it in private storage, it is up to you go get it loaded 
there.

Steve B wrote

I have the code to turn on the JSCBAUTH however it is a SVC


I sure hope no one lets you install that SVC on a system that anyone cares much 
about. Except in a vanishingly small percentage of cases, this is an extreme 
system integrity violation.

Binyamin wrote

What is a "non-authorized" address space?


Everyone I know would consider that to be an address space for which the 
jobstep program is not both linkedited AC=1 and gotten from an APF-authorized 
concatenation, and is not a system key address space (as could be defined in 
such places as the program properties table).
Starting (and even running) in problem state and user key is not enough for the 
characterization. The user program in a non-authorized address space cannot 
switch itself to an authorized state.

Of course within a non-authorized address space at various points code runs 
authorized (such as after an SVC or a non-space-switching PC that is defined to 
execute in supervisor state and/or a system key).

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Michael Stein]

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 03:36:44PM +, esst...@juno.com wrote:
> Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
> .
> "To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the 
> scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different 
> program that is accessible from the target address space, or 
> in the common storage together with the scheduling code."

An SRB is just a small control block containing the ASID for the SRB
routine to run in and the SRB routine entry point address in that address
space (plus more).  So the entry point has to be either in the system
common space which is in all address spaces or else in the target address
space (the supplied ASID).

The system is just going to branch to the target address you supply
in the address space you specified to run the SRB routine.

I don't think it means any more than that.

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Seymour J Metz]

An SRB is for running privileged code, regardless of whether the jobstep is 
authorized. .

The code has to be at an address that the processor can access within the 
target address space. That can be in the common area or in the private area.

The placement is not an integrity issue. The same rules apply regardless of 
where the code is.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
esst...@juno.com 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2023 10:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Question about  IEAMSCHD

.
Hello
.
Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
.
"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the
scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different
program that is accessible from the target address space, or
in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
.
The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb
.
It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine.
.
I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized
Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
storage.
.
I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine
would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.
.
.
.
paul  dangelo
.
.

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Steve Beaver]

I have the code to turn on the
JSCBAUTH however it is a SVC

Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb 

> On Dec 30, 2023, at 17:22, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> SRBs do not run under TCBs and the code is privileged. Asynchronous code 
> under a TCB has an IRB unless SIRB is still a thing for error recovery.
> 
> The key and mode is a separate issue from authorization, which is JSCBAUTH.
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
> נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2023 2:55 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Question about IEAMSCHD
> 
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT, esst...@juno.com  wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized
>> Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
>> storage.
> 
> It's important to tell us about the problem you need to solve because you 
> only told us SRB is how you will solve that problem. Maybe XMEM, PC routine 
> or ??? is a better solution. SRB routines are required to be in common but 
> maybe your problem requires the SRB routine be in common. Do you actually 
> need an SRB because it must execute in that address space?
> 
> You schedule an SRB to a TCB so I'm guessing you meant an unauthorized TCB. 
> This is irrelevant unless you have code that must run unauthorized as opposed 
> to running the SRB in problem state.
> 
> If your SRB routine is not in common, then you most likely use XMEM (some 
> obscure exceptions) where you most likely use primary, secondary, home (again 
> some obscure exceptions). Learn how to use primary, secondary and home. Most 
> important, be consistent about how you use it otherwise you could have a mess 
> on your hands.
> 
>> Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
>> .
>> "To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the
>> scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different
>> program that is accessible from the target address space, or
>> in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
>> .
>> The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
>> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb
> 
> Example 7 specifies ENV=STOKEN which potentially inv

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Seymour J Metz]

SRBs do not run under TCBs and the code is privileged. Asynchronous code under 
a TCB has an IRB unless SIRB is still a thing for error recovery.

The key and mode is a separate issue from authorization, which is JSCBAUTH.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2023 2:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT, esst...@juno.com  wrote:

>I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized
>Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
>storage.

It's important to tell us about the problem you need to solve because you only 
told us SRB is how you will solve that problem. Maybe XMEM, PC routine or ??? 
is a better solution. SRB routines are required to be in common but maybe your 
problem requires the SRB routine be in common. Do you actually need an SRB 
because it must execute in that address space?

You schedule an SRB to a TCB so I'm guessing you meant an unauthorized TCB. 
This is irrelevant unless you have code that must run unauthorized as opposed 
to running the SRB in problem state.

If your SRB routine is not in common, then you most likely use XMEM (some 
obscure exceptions) where you most likely use primary, secondary, home (again 
some obscure exceptions). Learn how to use primary, secondary and home. Most 
important, be consistent about how you use it otherwise you could have a mess 
on your hands.

>Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
>.
>"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the
>scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different
>program that is accessible from the target address space, or
>in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
>.
>The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb

Example 7 specifies ENV=STOKEN which potentially involves a third address space 
where the SRB routine must be addressable. The routine cannot be included with 
the IEAMSCHD because it's not addressable by the SRB.

>It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine.

SRB's are authorized but that does not prevent your SRB from switching to / 
from problem state.

>I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine
>would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
>SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.

This is not an integrity issue because IEAMSCHD specifies the address of the 
SRB routine and it is your responsibility to ensure this address is for code 
that does not create an authorization exposure. This is a requirement for 
running authorized and has nothing to do with SRB. You never allow unauthorized 
programs to pass an executable address to your program running authorized 
regardless of the environment you are running..

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:52:42 GMT "esst...@juno.com"  wrote:

:>.
:>Binyamin wrote
:>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
:>Key 8 Problem state job/started task 

SRBs do not run in/as tasks.

They always get control in supervisor state.
.
:>If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
:>create an IRB.
:
:>Can You elaborate on this ?
:>Did You mean SRB Routine ?
:>How does the SRB create an IRB ?  I must have missed something.

SCHEDIRB
.
:>paul
:>
:>.-- Original Message --
:>From: Binyamin Dissen 
:>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
:>Subject: Re: Question about  IEAMSCHD
:>Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:28:10 +0200
:>
:>On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT "esst...@juno.com"  wrote:
:>
:>::>Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
:>:
:>:>"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the 
:>:>scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different 
:>:>program that is accessible from the target address space, or 
:>:>in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
:>:
:>:>The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
:>:>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb
:>.
:>
:>
:>
:>
:>>It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine. 
:>
:>Well, the SRB runs in supervisor state. You, as the scheduler, are responsible
:>for integrity and not give control to arbitrary routines.
:>.
:>:>I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized 
:>:>Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in 
common storage.
:>
:>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
:>.
:>:>I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine 
:>:>would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
:>:>SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.
:>
:>If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
:>create an IRB. The IRB will not run supervisor state unless you request it.

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Jon Perryman]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:52:42 GMT, esst...@juno.com  wrote:

>Binyamin wrote
>>What is a "non-authorized" address space?
>Key 8 Problem state job/started task 

He's telling you there is no such thing as a "non-authorized" job/STC. A 
job/stc does not have a key or state. Running authorized is different from the 
key and state. An RB (e.g. PRB or IRB) running unauthorized cannot change it's 
key and state whereas an RB (e.g. PRB or SRB) running authorized can switch key 
and state.

Nothing stops an authorized RB (e.g. SRB or PRB) switching to & from key 8 
problem state. 

>If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
>create an IRB.
>.
>Can You elaborate on this ?
>Did You mean SRB Routine ?
>How does the SRB create an IRB ?  I must have missed something.

If you have code that must run unauthorized key 8 problem state, then you can 
use the SCHEDIRB macro that runs an RB called IRB. Chances are this is overkill 
and switching your SRB to key 8 problem state is probably sufficient.

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Jon Perryman]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT, esst...@juno.com  wrote:

>I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized 
>Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
>storage.

It's important to tell us about the problem you need to solve because you only 
told us SRB is how you will solve that problem. Maybe XMEM, PC routine or ??? 
is a better solution. SRB routines are required to be in common but maybe your 
problem requires the SRB routine be in common. Do you actually need an SRB 
because it must execute in that address space?  

You schedule an SRB to a TCB so I'm guessing you meant an unauthorized TCB. 
This is irrelevant unless you have code that must run unauthorized as opposed 
to running the SRB in problem state. 

If your SRB routine is not in common, then you most likely use XMEM (some 
obscure exceptions) where you most likely use primary, secondary, home (again 
some obscure exceptions). Learn how to use primary, secondary and home. Most 
important, be consistent about how you use it otherwise you could have a mess 
on your hands.

>Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
>.
>"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the 
>scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different 
>program that is accessible from the target address space, or 
>in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
>.
>The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb

Example 7 specifies ENV=STOKEN which potentially involves a third address space 
where the SRB routine must be addressable. The routine cannot be included with 
the IEAMSCHD because it's not addressable by the SRB.  

>It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine. 

SRB's are authorized but that does not prevent your SRB from switching to / 
from problem state.

>I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine 
>would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
>SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.

This is not an integrity issue because IEAMSCHD specifies the address of the 
SRB routine and it is your responsibility to ensure this address is for code 
that does not create an authorization exposure. This is a requirement for 
running authorized and has nothing to do with SRB. You never allow unauthorized 
programs to pass an executable address to your program running authorized 
regardless of the environment you are running..

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[esst...@juno.com]

.
Binyamin wrote
What is a "non-authorized" address space?
Key 8 Problem state job/started task 
.
If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
create an IRB.
.
Can You elaborate on this ?
Did You mean SRB Routine ?
How does the SRB create an IRB ?  I must have missed something.
.
paul

.-- Original Message --
From: Binyamin Dissen 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question about  IEAMSCHD
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:28:10 +0200

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT "esst...@juno.com"  wrote:

::>Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
:
:>"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the 
:>scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different 
:>program that is accessible from the target address space, or 
:>in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
:
:>The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
:>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb
.




>It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine. 

Well, the SRB runs in supervisor state. You, as the scheduler, are responsible
for integrity and not give control to arbitrary routines.
.
:>I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized 
:>Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
storage.

What is a "non-authorized" address space?
.
:>I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine 
:>would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
:>SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.

If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
create an IRB. The IRB will not run supervisor state unless you request it.

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question about IEAMSCHD

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:36:44 GMT "esst...@juno.com"  wrote:

::>Can someone please clarify this statement regarding IEAMSCHD -
:
:>"To run an SRB routine in a different address space from the 
:>scheduling code, the SRB routine must be either in a different 
:>program that is accessible from the target address space, or 
:>in the common storage together with the scheduling code."
:
:>The above was taken from Example 7 of IEAMSCHD -
:>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=ixg-ieamschd-schedule-srb
.
:>It makes no reference to the authorization of the target srb routine. 

Well, the SRB runs in supervisor state. You, as the scheduler, are responsible
for integrity and not give control to arbitrary routines.
.
:>I would like to schedule an SRB using IEAMSCHD to a non-authorized 
:>Address Space - I would prefer not to place the target SRB routine in common 
storage.

What is a "non-authorized" address space?
.
:>I suspect its implied this is an integrity issue; as the target SRB Routine 
:>would be loaded by the Non Authorized Address Space, AND the Target
:>SRB Routine is entered in supervisor state.

If you want to run code that should not be in supervisor state, have the SRB
create an IRB. The IRB will not run supervisor state unless you request it.

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question About IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY

[Scott Ballentine]

For IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY, Rob Scott's approach should work.  IEFSSI 
REQUEST=QUERY can return data for both return code 0 and return code 4 (see 
reason code IEFSSI_QUERY_INCOMPLETE) so simply checking for return code 0 is 
insufficient.  The service doesn't return a workarea address for any other 
return codes.

In general, this probably varies from service to service (although most modern 
services will probably behave like IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY in that they would not 
return an address unless the caller can safely use it) so you do need to read 
the documentation for the service.  Also, you should not assume that a service 
will zero an output address for you if the service could not return data (which 
goes to Rob's comment about zeroing the output address before calling IEFSSI to 
make sure it is clean.)  

-Scott Ballentine
IBM z/OS Development

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Re: Question About IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY

[Rob Scott]

Paul

My approach would be along the lines of :

(o) Zero the field that is to contain the output workarea address (to ensure no 
pollution)
(o) Prime the subpool input value
(o) Call IEFSSI
(o) Do your logic
(o) Test field that contains output workarea address - if non-zero release with 
subpool specified earlier.

Personally I would not check the RC+RSN from IEFSSI to dictate the storage 
release, and would rely on the service only populating the output workarea 
address when there is caller action required.

Rob Scott
Rocket Software

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
esst...@juno.com
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2023 3:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Question About IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY

EXTERNAL EMAIL





Hello,.Looking at the IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY - It is recommended to Free the 
WorkArea when he request completes -.
Is it safe (as in a good practice) to always release the workarea when the 
WORKAREA address returned is non-zero. ?
.
Meaning once the program has evaluated the return code, the program can RELEASE 
the WORKAREA storage if WORKAREA Address is non-zero.
.
The examples seem to always release the WORKAREA regardless of the address 
returned in workarea and regardless of the return code...What AM I miss 
understanding .Paul D'Angelo .

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Re: Question About IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:22:16 GMT, esst...@juno.com  wrote:

>Hello,.Looking at the IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY - It is recommended to Free the 
>WorkArea when he request completes -.
>Is it safe (as in a good practice) to always release the workarea
>when the WORKAREA address returned is non-zero. ?

If the doc tells you to free something upon return, then you need to free it 
but the real question is whether it was ever allocated. Unless the doc tells me 
the conditions when to free it, my approach has always been to clear the 
pointer prior to the call and then check for non-0 upon return. Clearing it is 
probably overkill but better safe than sorry.

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Re: Question About IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY

[Joseph Reichman]

I did it with no problem and was running other SSI requests afterwards 

> On Oct 12, 2023, at 10:24 AM, esst...@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Hello,.Looking at the IEFSSI REQUEST=QUERY - It is recommended to Free the 
> WorkArea when he request completes -.
> Is it safe (as in a good practice) to always release the workarea
> when the WORKAREA address returned is non-zero. ?
> .
> Meaning once the program has evaluated the return code, the program can
> RELEASE the WORKAREA storage if WORKAREA Address is non-zero.
> .
> The examples seem to always release the WORKAREA regardless of the address 
> returned in workarea and regardless of the return code...What AM I miss 
> understanding .Paul D'Angelo
> .
> 
> --
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Re: Question about RMF III Device Resource Delay

[Colin Paice]

I presume you are using the devr report...

See Pending, disconnect and other gobbledegook.

for some info on what the IO wait times mean.

It might be
Disconnect – Time spent accessing the disks.  This could be accessing local
disks, or accessing remote (mirrored) disks.  The Storage controller is not
doing any work while the disk is busy.

   - The volume is reserved by another system.
   - Waiting for the arm to move, or the disk to rotate (for spinning
   disks).
   - The disk is processing the request – for example a cache miss means
   the disk has to be read.
   - Waiting for a signal from a remote peer to say that write data has
   been stored.
   - Some SMF records have a field “Read Disconnect time”.This
   indicates the read wanted a record which was not in the controller cache.


You can collect SMF42-6 records - IO stats at the dataset level.  I have a
program which prints out these stats.
The RMF data you see  is also in the SMF 79-9 records.

Colin


On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 08:21, Jason Cai  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>I have a question about the RMF III Device Resource Delay report
>
>I noticed that the DLY% value of one disk is 100 every 6 minutes. This
> disk has HyperPAV enabled.
>
>ACT RATE = 5.1,RESP TIME=200 ACT%=2 CON%=1 DSC%=1 USG%=0 DLY%=100
>
>
>According to the IBM manual, DLY% means "Percentage of time when the
> job was waiting to use the data set because of contention for the volume
> were the data set resides".
>
>I would like to know how to identify the cause of this contention. What
> command should I use? Do I need to enable GRS MONITOR?
>
>   Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thank you for your attention and assistance.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jason Cai
>
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Re: Question on the SLIP command

[Charles Hardee]

Hi Peter,

This works:

 STR14,0(,R13)
 JAS   R14,*+4+8
 DCC'$SL$',Y(x,y)
 L R14,0(,R13)

and I can do DA=(14R?,EQ,5BE2D35B)
Where x is a module's identification number and y is the nth macro
expansion for my SLIP trigger macro.

What I wanted to do was:

 J *+4+8
 DCC'$SL$',Y(x,y)

and I can do something like DA=(PSW?,EQ,5BE2D35B)

I was hoping to use the PSW in order to preserve all of my registers.
Apparently, I am not going to be able to do what I want to do.

Thanks for the information.
Chuck




On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 7:24 AM Peter Relson  wrote:

> As you have observed, there is no support for "PSW".
>
> I'm curious what SLIP trap you're setting that would let you even know to
> look at "+4". You'd have to know that the instruction itself was a branch
> and that it was one of "your" branches. If you really could tell that it
> was one of your branches, and if you have a reg that you can afford to use
> consistently perhaps use BRAS instead of J and then you could indirect off
> of the value in the reg.
>
> If this is a PER-SB (or IF) trap, and you know the address is below 2G,
> field LCCAPERA contains the address of the instruction that took the PER
> interrupt. LCCAPPSW contains the resulting PSW (so LCCAPPSW+4 contains the
> address, but may have bit 0 on)
>
> The LCCA is pointed to by PSA location x'210'.
>
> LCCXLCCAPERA and LCCXPPSW16_2 contain the 8-byte address and 16-byte PSW
> analogs.
>
> With use of an expression using indirection starting at x'210' and the EQ
> or EQA comparand you might be able to do something.
>
> Peter Relson
> z/OS Core Technology Design
>
>
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Re: Question on the SLIP command

[Peter Relson]

As you have observed, there is no support for "PSW".

I'm curious what SLIP trap you're setting that would let you even know to look 
at "+4". You'd have to know that the instruction itself was a branch and that 
it was one of "your" branches. If you really could tell that it was one of your 
branches, and if you have a reg that you can afford to use consistently perhaps 
use BRAS instead of J and then you could indirect off of the value in the reg.

If this is a PER-SB (or IF) trap, and you know the address is below 2G, field 
LCCAPERA contains the address of the instruction that took the PER interrupt. 
LCCAPPSW contains the resulting PSW (so LCCAPPSW+4 contains the address, but 
may have bit 0 on)

The LCCA is pointed to by PSA location x'210'.

LCCXLCCAPERA and LCCXPPSW16_2 contain the 8-byte address and 16-byte PSW 
analogs.

With use of an expression using indirection starting at x'210' and the EQ or 
EQA comparand you might be able to do something.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Question on the SLIP command

[Charles Hardee]

Hi Eric,

I have a macro that generates a code sequence like this:

  J*+4+6
  DCC'$SL$,Y(x,y)

x and y are "footprint" type fields.
The x represents the module identifier, 1, 2, 3, etc and y represents the
specific macro expansion, 1, 2, 3, etc.

The idea being when the PSW+4 points to the specific C'$SL$,Y(x,y)
combination, trigger the SLIP.
I tried using the DA=(..) parameter and when I coded what I hoped would
work, I used PSW like I would have used, for instance, 2R, and the SLIP
parser rejected it.

Chuck


On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 1:50 PM Eric D Rossman  wrote:

> Normally, you would use the RANGE= option to have the SLIP hit on certain
> PSWs. Are you trying to see if a particular instruction is present at the
> PSW?
>
> Eric Rossman
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Charles Hardee
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2023 1:40 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Question on the SLIP command
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have a question regarding the SLIP command.
>
> In my DA= parameter I have used things like 2r? to reference register 2,
> etc.
> Is there a symbol for the PSW?
> I have tried DA=(PSW?+0,EQ,*myvalue*) and it tells me the DA parm is bad.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
>
> --
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>

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Re: Question on the SLIP command

[Eric D Rossman]

Normally, you would use the RANGE= option to have the SLIP hit on certain PSWs. 
Are you trying to see if a particular instruction is present at the PSW?

Eric Rossman

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Hardee
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2023 1:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Question on the SLIP command

Hello All,

I have a question regarding the SLIP command.

In my DA= parameter I have used things like 2r? to reference register 2, etc.
Is there a symbol for the PSW?
I have tried DA=(PSW?+0,EQ,*myvalue*) and it tells me the DA parm is bad.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Question about IEAARR Process

[Peter Relson]

> Does the PC routine (IEAARR) simply branch to the Target Routine (R15)
> making it
> an extension of the IEAARR PC Service Routine?

It's not necessarily "simply" and it depends on what you mean by "an extension 
of". But for the most part "yes".
The IEAARR PC Service Routine runs in the caller's state and key (to the extent 
that an authorized user did what they're required to do). And yes, after doing 
whatever else it might feel necessary to do, it branches to the target routine.

When the target routine returns to the system via the return address in reg 14, 
the system issues the PR to match the PC

>Essentially, it works like a combo of BAKR and ESTAEX.

I'd say it works like an ARR that you do not have to be authorized to define 
and use. ESTAEX is not used. That is why it is more efficient than issuing 
ESTAEX. It is not more efficient than an ARR if you happened to be in a 
position to use an ARR.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Question about IEAARR Process

[Binyamin Dissen]

Haven't used it myself, but based on the macro expansion the GLUE would only
need to do is to perhaps place R0-R1 in the MSTA and then set R1 from AR0 and
BASR 14,15.

The predefined ARR of IEAARR would receive control upon abend and user the
MSTA area to set the parameter register and branch to the user specified ARR.

The advantage of ARR over ESTAE is that the ARR is automatically available.
The downside is the PC overhead.


On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 21:42:52 GMT "esst...@juno.com"  wrote:

:>Hello
:>.
:>.
:>Can anyone add some additional information regarding IEAARR.
:>I am trying to clean up an existing Associated Recovery Routine,
:>by first using IEAARR to drive a Target Routine that is designed to
:>Abend and drive the Associated Recovery Routine.
:>.
:>This works well .. I have No issues with IEAARR, and no issues with the ARR.
:>.
:>I have provided my IEAARR and its expansion.
:>.
:>IEAARR DYNSTORAGE=AVAIL, 
:>  ARRPTR=ARRRTN@,
:>  ARRPARAMPTR=ARRPARMS@, 
:>  PARAMPTR=TARGPARMS@,   
:>  TARGETPTR=TARGETRTN@,  
:>  TARGETSTATE=PROB   
:>.
:>400+M00M0011 DS0H IEAARR-0  
:>401+  PUSH  PRINT   
:>402+   PRINT ON 
:>403+ L 1,ARRRTN@   Pass ARR address 
:>404+ L 0,ARRPARMS@ Pass ARRPARAM address
:>405+ L 14,TARGPARMS@   Get parameter address
:>406+ SAR   0,14Pass parameter address   
:>407+ L 15,TARGETRTN@   Pass target address  
:>408+ L 14,16(0,0)  GET CVT ADDRESS  
:>409+ L 14,772(14,0)GET SFT ADDRESS  
:>410+ L 14,500(14,0)GET LX/EX FOR SERVICE RTN
:>411+ PC0(14)
:>412+ POP   PRINT
:>413+*IEAARR-0 
:>.
:>.
:>My understanding is the Expansion of IEAARR issues a Program Call (PC) to the
:>IEAARR service. Register 15 contains the address of the Target Routine.
:>.
:>Does the PC routine (IEAARR) simply branch to the Target Routine (R15) making 
it 
:>an extension of the IEAARR PC Service Routine? 
:>.
:>Is the Target Routine Attached as a separate Task ?
:>.
:>Can anyone add some details as to how IBM architected this..
:>.
:>.
:> Paul 
:>.
:>.
:>.   
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--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Question about IEAARR Process

[Steve Smith]

Based on my experience (I have no inside knowledge), IEARR is a very simple
non-space-switching PC program that calls your specified EP as a
subroutine, and same goes for the ARR address.  It's very simple... no
subtask is involved, nor any of the privilege modifications that PCs would
normally be used for.  Essentially, it works like a combo of BAKR and
ESTAEX.

Possibly IEARR is more efficient than the latter.  I know I've used it a
couple of times to call subroutines that needed special abend handling; but
it has been a while.

sas


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:44 PM esst...@juno.com  wrote:

> Hello
> ...
> Does the PC routine (IEAARR) simply branch to the Target Routine (R15)
> making it
> an extension of the IEAARR PC Service Routine?
> .
> Is the Target Routine Attached as a separate Task ?
> .
> Can anyone add some details as to how IBM architected this..
> .
> .
>  Paul
> .
> .
> .
> --
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

I'd prefer neither. While I consider them equally offensive, the use of the 
c-word has sexust connotations that I oppose, sp I would use the a-word.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 4:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

So would you rather call someone the a-word or the c-word, in public and
possibly in mixed company?  I don't use either, myself (except when reading
aloud), but I don't pause if someone uses the former around me.

If the question doesn't seem sensible to you, maybe just tell yourself
"there's no accounting...".

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.  -Ambrose Bierce */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 10:00

And bum is equivalent to the a-word.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 9:55 AM

Fanny is equivalent to the c-word ...

--- On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I also don't understand why fanny pack is offensive  ...

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

So would you rather call someone the a-word or the c-word, in public and
possibly in mixed company?  I don't use either, myself (except when reading
aloud), but I don't pause if someone uses the former around me.

If the question doesn't seem sensible to you, maybe just tell yourself
"there's no accounting...".

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.  -Ambrose Bierce */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 10:00

And bum is equivalent to the a-word.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 9:55 AM

Fanny is equivalent to the c-word ...

--- On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I also don't understand why fanny pack is offensive  ...

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:59, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> And bum is equivalent to the a-word.

Yes of course, but there's still a difference in severity been (say) calling
someone an a*s/ar*e and the other ... though there is (in Scotland, and
for all I know elsewhere too) a vernacular way (maybe commonest in 
Glasgow?) in which referring to eg "that bunch of people" over there
as "they c*nts" is much less offensive than saying directly to your pal
or shouting across the street "you're a c*nt". In this sense "they c*nts"
is no worse than "those blokes".

(NB I'm not precious about using the word but some people's email
systems especially on corporate systems might not like me using it
in full.)

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

And bum is equivalent to the a-word.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 9:55 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:

> I also don't understand why fanny pack is offensive  ...

Fanny is equivalent to the c-word ...

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:

> I also don't understand why fanny pack is offensive  ...

Fanny is equivalent to the c-word ...

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

Oddly enough, Fanny is, or was, a perfectly proper diminutive for Frances.

I'm really bad on clothing nomenclature, but wiki claims "Historically, the bag 
was positioned in front of the body,"; from this I infer that the American 
nomenclature is perfectly appropriate in the UK. I also don't understand why 
fanny pack is offensive but bum bag is not.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schmutzok, Mike (US - Georgia) [02dd6b12f291-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 8:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

' Well, UK English can also get us Americans in trouble, e.g., "fanny".'


Yep, made that mistake once. My wife and I were on a bus tour in Ireland and I 
asked my wife to get something out of her fanny pack and a trio of English 
ladies quickly corrected me on that usage…


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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Schmutzok, Mike (US - Georgia)]

' Well, UK English can also get us Americans in trouble, e.g., "fanny".'


Yep, made that mistake once. My wife and I were on a bus tour in Ireland and I 
asked my wife to get something out of her fanny pack and a trio of English 
ladies quickly corrected me on that usage…


Fiserv

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Systems Engineering - Advisor II
FISERV Technology Services

Fiserv
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Sean Gleann]

(Coming in a bit late on this thread)
As others have said, 'kicks' and Hursley are closely related (or rather,
_were_. It is my understanding that Hursley Grange is now some sort of IBM
museum.)
The local no. 66 bus goes between Romsey and Winchester via Hursley, so -
at least at some point in the past - it was definitely possible to "get
your kicks on route 66"...

Sean


On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 at 02:40, Jeremy Nicoll 
wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023, at 02:23, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Also Kipling.
>
> Kindling ??(sorry)
>
> > 
>
> > The root is from "bundle" of sticks and small pieces of wood, and by
> > expansion to bundles of other things.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023, at 02:23, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Also Kipling.

Kindling ??(sorry)

> 

> The root is from "bundle" of sticks and small pieces of wood, and by
> expansion to bundles of other things.

-- 
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

Also Kipling.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Tony Harminc 
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 10:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 21:28, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> I'm pretty sure it's not only British authors, but American too if one goes
> back far enough, whom I caught using "faggot" to mean a piece of wood for a
> fire.  From there to a cigarette is an easy step.

The root is from "bundle" of sticks and small pieces of wood, and by
expansion to bundles of other things.

> How the word came to describe an underclassman at a British boarding school,
> required to run errands for upper classmen, I'm not sure.

I don't think it does - I believe the errand-running boys at certain
British schools were "fag"s, which has other roots entirely - probably
a variation on "flag" as in become tired out, says OED. Probably these
two words have been conflated only in 20th century chiefly American
use into the once common derogatory term.

BTW your favorite C. S. Lewis is a quoted source for the verb "fag":

4. School slang (originally and chiefly in certain British independent
boarding schools for boys). Now historical and rare.
 a. transitive. Of a senior pupil: to make (a junior pupil) one's fag
(fag n.3 1b). Also: to compel (a junior pupil) to carry out a task or
chore. Also with complement indicating the nature of the task or
chore.
[...]
1955   C. S. Lewis Surprised by Joy vi. 96   This could be done only
if one escaped being fagged as a shoeblack.

Tony H.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Tony Harminc]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 21:28, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> I'm pretty sure it's not only British authors, but American too if one goes
> back far enough, whom I caught using "faggot" to mean a piece of wood for a
> fire.  From there to a cigarette is an easy step.

The root is from "bundle" of sticks and small pieces of wood, and by
expansion to bundles of other things.

> How the word came to describe an underclassman at a British boarding school,
> required to run errands for upper classmen, I'm not sure.

I don't think it does - I believe the errand-running boys at certain
British schools were "fag"s, which has other roots entirely - probably
a variation on "flag" as in become tired out, says OED. Probably these
two words have been conflated only in 20th century chiefly American
use into the once common derogatory term.

BTW your favorite C. S. Lewis is a quoted source for the verb "fag":

4. School slang (originally and chiefly in certain British independent
boarding schools for boys). Now historical and rare.
 a. transitive. Of a senior pupil: to make (a junior pupil) one's fag
(fag n.3 1b). Also: to compel (a junior pupil) to carry out a task or
chore. Also with complement indicating the nature of the task or
chore.
[...]
1955   C. S. Lewis Surprised by Joy vi. 96   This could be done only
if one escaped being fagged as a shoeblack.

Tony H.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

I'm pretty sure it's not only British authors, but American too if one goes
back far enough, whom I caught using "faggot" to mean a piece of wood for a
fire.  From there to a cigarette is an easy step.

How the word came to describe an underclassman at a British boarding school,
required to run errands for upper classmen, I'm not sure.  Could it have
come from another source entirely?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I am CopyCat of Borg.  Your tagline will be assimilated. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 15:27

That might have been misinterpreted here in the UK too, if those present
were educated at a public school (*).

* - which is a misleading term in itself, as it means a very expensive
private school, eg Eton.

--- On Sun, 19 Mar 2023, at 18:04, Colin Paice wrote:
> I got into trouble with the Americans ( from the days when people were 
> allowed to smoke in the office) in a presentation with a chart saying 
> " 10 minute fag break"

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Tony Harminc]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 13:22, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> Are "route" and "rut" related?

"Pronunciation:
Brit. pronunciation/rʌt/,
U.S. pronunciation/rət/

Forms:
α. 1500s rutte, 1500s–1600s rutt, 1500s– rut, 1600s rupt.
β. 1500s rotte, 1500s (1900s– English regional (west midlands and
southern)) rout, 1600s root, 1600s roote, 1600s–1700s rote, 1800s rot,
1900s– rowt (English regional (west midlands)).

Origin: Of uncertain origin. Probably either (i) formed within
English, by conversion. Or perhaps (ii) a variant or alteration of
another lexical item. Etymons: rut v.2; route n.1
Etymology: Origin uncertain. Probably < rut v.2, and thus ultimately
parallel to rit n.1... (Show More)
 1.  a. A (deep) furrow or track made in the ground, especially in a
soft road, by the passage of a wheeled vehicle or vehicles."

So it seems likely...

Tony H.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023, at 18:04, Colin Paice wrote:
> I got into trouble with the Americans ( from the days when people were
> allowed to smoke in the office) in a presentation with a chart saying " 10
> minute fag break"

That might have been misinterpreted here in the UK too, if those present
were educated at a public school (*).

* - which is a misleading term in itself, as it means a very expensive 
private school, eg Eton.

-- 
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Colin Paice]

I got into trouble with the Americans ( from the days when people were
allowed to smoke in the office) in a presentation with a chart saying " 10
minute fag break"

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 17:14, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Well, UK English can also get us Americans in trouble, e.g., "fanny".
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw [032fff1be9b4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 6:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
>
> In Australia "rooter" means something rather different, so I suggest you
> don't look it up.
> I was always surprised that most of my USA friends say rowt , but they all
> agree they get their kicks (CICS?) on root 66.
> Lennie
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of
> Jeremy Nicoll
> Sent: 18 March 2023 01:49
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
>
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> > Very interesting discussion.
> >
> > I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
> > word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different
> > opinions. And I learned in the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like
> > "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other,
> > maybe) "row-ter".
>
> In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
> for the woodworking tool.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
> --
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> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

Are "route" and "rut" related?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Harminc [t...@harminc.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 12:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 21:38, Bernd Oppolzer  wrote:
>
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I 
> learned in
> the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to 
> spell the other,
> maybe) "row-ter".

There are two quite different words here, with variants, conversions
n->v, v->n and so on, with ultimately quite different meanings and,
uh, roots. It's only coincidence that the spelling - and some people's
pronunciation -  has ended up the same.

First is the one that has do do with choosing or making a direction of
travel, which is verbing of the noun route, which then gets re-noun'd
to router.

This is pronounced /ruːtə/ in the UK and /raʊdər/ in the US. As
someone said, Canadians are split.

This is (part of) the OED's description of that root:

"Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymon: French route.
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman and Old French rute, Anglo-Norman and Old
French, Middle French rote, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle
French, French route, Middle French routte way, direction (first
quarter of the 12th cent.), course (of a ship) (c1160), path,
passageway (c1170), the course of a military march (a1683) < classical
Latin rupta (short for via rupta broken way), feminine of ruptus
broken, past participle of rumpere to break (see rumpent n.); compare
rumpere viam to open up a path. Compare post-classical Latin ruta ,
rutta way, road (13th cent. in British sources; 14th cent. in
continental sources).

The pronunciation with a diphthong is recorded from the second half of
the 18th cent. and preferred by some, but not all commentators at that
time; it disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America.

 a. A way or course taken in moving from a starting point to a
destination; a regular line of travel or passage; the course of a
river, stream, etc. Also: a means of passage; a way in or out. Cf. en
route adv.Often with modifying word indicating the purpose of travel;
for more established compounds, as air, bus, lane-, migration-, red,
silk, stock-, trade route, etc., see the first element.

router
Electronics and Computing.

A device, circuit, algorithm, etc., which serves to determine the
destinations of individual incoming signals; esp. a device which
receives data packets and forwards them to the appropriate computer
network or part of a network."


The kind of router that removes wood comes from a different root,
pronounced raʊt in both modern UK and North American dialects:

"2. a. Woodworking. Any of various hand tools for working and shaping
grooves, rebates, and mouldings, having a narrow, often profiled,
cutter; (in later use) spec. a router plane.
 b. A machine or power tool for working and shaping grooves,
rebates, and mouldings in wood or other materials, often following a
prescribed outline."

from the verb route:
"3. b. transitive. Originally: to cut a groove or other recess in the
surface of (a material, as wood, metal, etc.) by using any of various
tools; to cut (a groove or recess) in this way. Later: to cut or work
at by using an electric router or similar tool to remove material."

in turn from wroot, v.
"Etymology: Old English wrótan , = Old Frisian *wrôta (West Frisian
wrotte , North Frisian wrote , wröte , wrät ), Middle Low German
wroten (Low German wröten ), Middle Dutch and Dutch wroeten (Antwerp
dialect wruten ), Old High German *wrôzian , ruozian to plough up, Old
Norse and Icelandic róta , (Middle) Swedish and Norwegian rota ,
Danish rode ), < wrót wroot n."

So in summary, the word that involves sending packets somewhere comes
into English from Latin, and the one to do with grooves in wood and
the like from old Germanic roots.

> While doing this research, I found out that the American way to pronounce 
> things often
> is the OLD british way to do it, which was common in GB in the 19th century 
> or earlier,
> and which then changed in GB, but stayed like it was in the US of America.

Yeah - it's normal for the language of emigrants to be more
conservative than that of those who stay behind. As above, where
/raʊt/ "disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America."

Tony H.

--

Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

Northern ir Southern? Or is "roden" the same in both?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer [bernd.oppol...@t-online.de]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 5:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

Thank you very much,

the 2nd word is "roden" in today's German language,
roden is the infinitive form.
"Ich rode, Du rodest, er rodet, ..." etc.
a "normal" German verb.

Roden means: cut a (large amount) of trees and leave an area without trees
(Google translate says: clearing, the German word is: Lichtung).

I didn't know about this homonym so far.

Thank you again.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 18.03.2023 um 05:57 schrieb Tony Harminc:
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 21:38, Bernd Oppolzer  
> wrote:
>> Very interesting discussion.
>>
>> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
>> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different opinions. And 
>> I learned in
>> the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to 
>> spell the other,
>> maybe) "row-ter".
> There are two quite different words here, with variants, conversions
> n->v, v->n and so on, with ultimately quite different meanings and,
> uh, roots. It's only coincidence that the spelling - and some people's
> pronunciation -  has ended up the same.
>
> First is the one that has do do with choosing or making a direction of
> travel, which is verbing of the noun route, which then gets re-noun'd
> to router.
>
> This is pronounced /ruːtə/ in the UK and /raʊdər/ in the US. As
> someone said, Canadians are split.
>
> This is (part of) the OED's description of that root:
>
> "Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymon: French route.
> Etymology: < Anglo-Norman and Old French rute, Anglo-Norman and Old
> French, Middle French rote, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle
> French, French route, Middle French routte way, direction (first
> quarter of the 12th cent.), course (of a ship) (c1160), path,
> passageway (c1170), the course of a military march (a1683) < classical
> Latin rupta (short for via rupta broken way), feminine of ruptus
> broken, past participle of rumpere to break (see rumpent n.); compare
> rumpere viam to open up a path. Compare post-classical Latin ruta ,
> rutta way, road (13th cent. in British sources; 14th cent. in
> continental sources).
>
> The pronunciation with a diphthong is recorded from the second half of
> the 18th cent. and preferred by some, but not all commentators at that
> time; it disappears from standard British English in the course of the
> 19th cent., but is still widespread in North America.
>
>   a. A way or course taken in moving from a starting point to a
> destination; a regular line of travel or passage; the course of a
> river, stream, etc. Also: a means of passage; a way in or out. Cf. en
> route adv.Often with modifying word indicating the purpose of travel;
> for more established compounds, as air, bus, lane-, migration-, red,
> silk, stock-, trade route, etc., see the first element.
>
> router
> Electronics and Computing.
>
> A device, circuit, algorithm, etc., which serves to determine the
> destinations of individual incoming signals; esp. a device which
> receives data packets and forwards them to the appropriate computer
> network or part of a network."
>
>
> The kind of router that removes wood comes from a different root,
> pronounced raʊt in both modern UK and North American dialects:
>
> "2. a. Woodworking. Any of various hand tools for working and shaping
> grooves, rebates, and mouldings, having a narrow, often profiled,
> cutter; (in later use) spec. a router plane.
>   b. A machine or power tool for working and shaping grooves,
> rebates, and mouldings in wood or other materials, often following a
> prescribed outline."
>
> from the verb route:
> "3. b. transitive. Originally: to cut a groove or other recess in the
> surface of (a material, as wood, metal, etc.) by using any of various
> tools; to cut (a groove or recess) in this way. Later: to cut or work
> at by using an electric router or similar tool to remove material."
>
> in turn from wroot, v.
> "Etymology: Old English wrótan , = Old Frisian *wrôta (West Frisian
> wrotte , North Frisian wrote , wröte , wrät ), Middle Low German
> wroten (Low German wröten ), Middle Dutch and Dutch wroeten (Antwerp
> dialect wruten ), Old High German *wrôzian , ruozian to plough up, Old
> Norse a

Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

Well, UK English can also get us Americans in trouble, e.g., "fanny".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw [032fff1be9b4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 6:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

In Australia "rooter" means something rather different, so I suggest you
don't look it up.
I was always surprised that most of my USA friends say rowt , but they all
agree they get their kicks (CICS?) on root 66.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: 18 March 2023 01:49
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different
> opinions. And I learned in the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like
> "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other,
> maybe) "row-ter".

In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
for the woodworking tool.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jay Maynard]

The word you're looking for is "aspirated": you're noticing the difference
between aspirated and unaspirated /k/. In English, the two sounds are
recognized as different realizations of the same phoneme (allophonic).

On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 8:34 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> If you'll allow me just a bit of linguistic geekery, it's because the
> nature of the following 'k' sound is different.  When we say "kin", the 'k'
> sound has a very slight expiration of breath after it, not so much that you
> would think I was actually pronounced an 'h' but it's there.  When we say
> "skin", that slight expiration is missing.  So when I hear "wih-SKAHN-sin"
> and compare it to "wiss-KAHN-sin", I'm pretty sure that the difference is
> actually in the 'k' sound, although my brain interprets it as the placement
> of the 's'.  Same with "rack-EFF" and "ra-KEFF".
>
> Phoneticists have a word for this (but I'm not a phoneticist, just a
> dabbler, so I couldn't tell you off-hand what the word is); it happens with
> the other plosives, too, in for example "pat" and "spat", and "tamp" and
> "stamp".

-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

I grew up in Minnesota, and visited grandparents a few times every summer in 
Wisconsin, which we pronounced "wih-SKAHN-sun".  Then in my high-school years 
we moved to Pennsylvania, where I noticed they pronounced it "wiss-KAHN-sun", 
the 's' moved firmly from the second to the first syllable.  I wasn't even sure 
until just now why the distinction was so clear in my mind.

If you'll allow me just a bit of linguistic geekery, it's because the nature of 
the following 'k' sound is different.  When we say "kin", the 'k' sound has a 
very slight expiration of breath after it, not so much that you would think I 
was actually pronounced an 'h' but it's there.  When we say "skin", that slight 
expiration is missing.  So when I hear "wih-SKAHN-sin" and compare it to 
"wiss-KAHN-sin", I'm pretty sure that the difference is actually in the 'k' 
sound, although my brain interprets it as the placement of the 's'.  Same with 
"rack-EFF" and "ra-KEFF".

Phoneticists have a word for this (but I'm not a phoneticist, just a dabbler, 
so I couldn't tell you off-hand what the word is); it happens with the other 
plosives, too, in for example "pat" and "spat", and "tamp" and "stamp".  If you 
want to put it another way, in "kin" your throat is open and the force of the 
'k' comes from your diaphragm, causing that slight breath; in "skin" your 
throat is closed and the only force in the 'k' comes from the air already 
stored up in your mouth.  It sounds too subtle to worry about, but it's one of 
the things you notice in some foreign accents even if you don't identify it 
consciously.

(Actually they pronounced it "wess-KAHN-sin", with a secondary stress on the 
first syllable.  And what's with claiming that I had an accent?  Minnesotan's 
don't have an accent, we talk normally!  It was years before I could watch a TV 
show and hear a Minnesotan accent.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Never let us be discouraged with ourselves; it is not when we are conscious 
of our faults that we are the most wickedAnd let us remember, for our 
consolation, that we never perceive our sins till He begin to cure them.  
-Francois Fenelon (1651-1715) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 23:51

the time I had temporarily been part of a team to do an ACF2->RACF 
conversion at a large Canadian bank.  (That is a whole story in itself and 
almost cost me my IBM job.) Anyway ... There was this customer person, who in 
every meeting kept pronouncing it Ra-KEFF.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Seymour J Metz]

I say Id Cams, Zee Oh Ess, Ess Queue Ell. 

IFOX00 is Assembler (XF), the last free assembler in the CP-67, DOS/360, OS/360 
lines. It looked like a rewritten Assembler (F), but there were enough 
differences that an OS/360 Stage 1 sysgen wouldn't assemble on it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

Most of those are familiar to me, but I've always said "eye dee cams" and "zee 
oh ess".  "SQL" I hear both ways, and pronounce it according to my mood at the 
time.

Never heard of "IFOX00".

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Public opinion: What everyone thinks everyone else thinks  -Joseph Sobran */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 10:59

South of England:

CICS 'kicks'
IMS 'eye em ess'
VSAM 'vee sam'
IDCAMS 'id cams' (id rhymes with lid)
zOS 'zed oss' ('zee arse' makes me snigger internally :-) )
JES3 'jez three'
SQL 'sequel'
IFOX00 'eye fox zero zero'

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[David Spiegel]

Hi Andrew,
This reminds me of the time I had temporarily been part of a team to do 
an ACF2->RACF conversion at a large Canadian bank.

(That is a whole story in itself and almost cost me my IBM job.)
Anyway ... There was this customer person, who in every meeting kept 
pronouncing it Ra-KEFF.


When I see the dreaded ICH408I, sometimes in conversation with 
colleagues, it'll be I've been RACFrigged again.


Regards,
David

On 2023-03-18 18:15, Andrew Rowley wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:54 pm, Bob Bridges wrote:
Now that you mention this, I guess I'm being inconsistent when I say 
"see eye see ess" and "eye em ess", but privately chuckle when 
ignorami say "are ay see eff" instead of "rack-eff".


RACF always amused me, because "rack off" is a (Australian?) way to 
somewhat rudely tell someone to go away. So, "I tried to log on,  but 
RACF told me to rack off."


It's an accidentally great name for a security product.



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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Andrew Rowley]

On 18/03/2023 11:54 pm, Bob Bridges wrote:

Now that you mention this, I guess I'm being inconsistent when I say "see eye see ess" and "eye em 
ess", but privately chuckle when ignorami say "are ay see eff" instead of "rack-eff".

RACF always amused me, because "rack off" is a (Australian?) way to 
somewhat rudely tell someone to go away. So, "I tried to log on,  but 
RACF told me to rack off."


It's an accidentally great name for a security product.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

Most of those are familiar to me, but I've always said "eye dee cams" and "zee 
oh ess".  "SQL" I hear both ways, and pronounce it according to my mood at the 
time.

Never heard of "IFOX00".

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Public opinion: What everyone thinks everyone else thinks  -Joseph Sobran */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 10:59

South of England:

CICS 'kicks'
IMS 'eye em ess'
VSAM 'vee sam'
IDCAMS 'id cams' (id rhymes with lid)
zOS 'zed oss' ('zee arse' makes me snigger internally :-) )
JES3 'jez three'
SQL 'sequel'
IFOX00 'eye fox zero zero'

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

Ah!  I always thought "loaf" in that context was a reference to the shape of 
the head, like "nut".  Although come to think of it, maybe "nut" (for 
"nutbread") is rhyming slang too.

I wonder how many other rhyming-slang items have made their way into American 
English without our being aware of it.  I already know "raspberry", but now I 
suspect there are others.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* God's never been disappointed in me, because he never had any illusions 
about me.  -Clay McLean */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 10:46

Proper rhyming slang doesn't explain itself and you just need to know that 
"loaf" -> "loaf of bread" -> head. Thus "Use your loaf!" was one I heard 
throughout my teens :-)

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Windt, W.K.F. van der (Fred)]

We (in The Netherlands) say “kicks” like the Brits.

Sent from Outlook for iOS

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 8:15:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Question for our international friends (mostly)

How do you say "CICS"? In my experience, Americans mostly say
"see-eye-see-ess"; Brits say "kicks"; Canadians are a mixture; and Italians
say "cheeks" (which makes perfect sense, following Italian pronunciation
rules). If your native language isn't English, how do YOU say it?



This is just a curiosity question, obviously!


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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Rupert Reynolds]

It might be my memory, then.

As it happens, using CICS maps laid some of the groundwork for programming
3270 datastreams the hard way (addresses in base 64, Start Field Extended
and so on).

Roops

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 15:10 Martin Trübner, <
047eec287bd9-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> >> Was some CICS work done in Denver?
>
> Yes, before it came to Hursley.
>
> Also "Denver foot hill" was used However, I insist in
>
> Dieter Fritz Hans (since the krauts made it in the beginning)
>
> ;-)
>
>
> Martin
>
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[P H]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CmaLgxLDE0&ab_channel=JJMClark
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0CmaLgxLDE0/maxresdefault.jpg]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CmaLgxLDE0&ab_channel=JJMClark>
The Two Ronnies Fork Handles - Now 1080p - March 
2019<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CmaLgxLDE0&ab_channel=JJMClark>
The Two Ronnies - Fork Handles - 1080p
www.youtube.com


Regards

Parwez Hamid​

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Rupert Reynolds 
Sent: 18 March 2023 14:46
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

Yes, although it's "A for 'orses" (hay for horses) and so it goes part-way
to explaining itself.

Proper rhyming slang doesn't explain itself and you just need to know that
"loaf" -> "loaf of bread" -> head. Thus "Use your loaf!" was one I heard
throughout my teens :-)

Roops

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 12:47 Bob Bridges,  wrote:

> I suppose this is based on rhyming slang?  I wouldn't begin to know how to
> decipher it.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The first virtue is to restrain the tongue; he approaches nearest to
> the gods who knows how to be silent, even though he be in the right.  -Cato
> the Younger (BC 95-46) */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Rupert Reynolds
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 03:10
>
> Back in the days of analogue mobile phones, I used phonetics a lot!
>
> Once or twice, I used the Cockney phonetics ;-)
>
> A for 'orses
> B for mutton
> C for miles
> ...
> X for breakfast
> Y for girlfriend
> Z for a joke  (i.e. 'said for a joke')
>
> --- On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 00:23 Bob Bridges,  wrote:
> > Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use
> > alpha / bravo / charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is
> > probably unmistakable.
>
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Martin Trübner]

Was some CICS work done in Denver?


Yes, before it came to Hursley.

Also "Denver foot hill" was used However, I insist in

Dieter Fritz Hans (since the krauts made it in the beginning)

;-)


Martin

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Rupert Reynolds]

South of England:

CICS 'kicks'
IMS 'eye em ess'
VSAM 'vee sam'
IDCAMS 'id cams' (id rhymes with lid)
zOS 'zed oss' ('zee arse' makes me snigger internally :-) )
JES3 'jez three'
SQL 'sequel'
IFOX00 'eye fox zero zero'

Incidentally, the DHF prefix in CICS was explained to me as 'Denver Forest
Hills'. Was some CICS work done in Denver?

Roops


On Fri, 17 Mar 2023, 19:15 Phil Smith III,  wrote:

> How do you say "CICS"? In my experience, Americans mostly say
> "see-eye-see-ess"; Brits say "kicks"; Canadians are a mixture; and Italians
> say "cheeks" (which makes perfect sense, following Italian pronunciation
> rules). If your native language isn't English, how do YOU say it?
>
>
>
> This is just a curiosity question, obviously!
>
>
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Rupert Reynolds]

Yes, although it's "A for 'orses" (hay for horses) and so it goes part-way
to explaining itself.

Proper rhyming slang doesn't explain itself and you just need to know that
"loaf" -> "loaf of bread" -> head. Thus "Use your loaf!" was one I heard
throughout my teens :-)

Roops

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 12:47 Bob Bridges,  wrote:

> I suppose this is based on rhyming slang?  I wouldn't begin to know how to
> decipher it.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The first virtue is to restrain the tongue; he approaches nearest to
> the gods who knows how to be silent, even though he be in the right.  -Cato
> the Younger (BC 95-46) */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Rupert Reynolds
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 03:10
>
> Back in the days of analogue mobile phones, I used phonetics a lot!
>
> Once or twice, I used the Cockney phonetics ;-)
>
> A for 'orses
> B for mutton
> C for miles
> ...
> X for breakfast
> Y for girlfriend
> Z for a joke  (i.e. 'said for a joke')
>
> --- On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 00:23 Bob Bridges,  wrote:
> > Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use
> > alpha / bravo / charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is
> > probably unmistakable.
>
> --
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 12:47, Bob Bridges wrote:
> I suppose this is based on rhyming slang?  I wouldn't begin to know how 
> to decipher it.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_Alphabet

where there's explanations.

-- 
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

Now that you mention this, I guess I'm being inconsistent when I say "see eye 
see ess" and "eye em ess", but privately chuckle when ignorami say "are ay see 
eff" instead of "rack-eff".

I've heard "zoss", but I can't imagine ever adopting it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There are no timeouts [in soccer], so the only way players can catch their 
breath is to sustain a major injury.  A guy will get bumped by another player, 
or a beam of sunlight, and he'll hurl himself dramatically to the ground, 
writhing and clutching his leg and screaming that the referee should get a 
priest out there immediately to administer the last rites, or at least call a 
foul.  Some players suffer four or five fatal injuries per game.  That's how 
tough they are.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Laurence Chiu
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 03:04

Note that since CICS came from Hursley and the Brits say kicks, then that is 
the right pronunciation. But it's very irregular since I used to be an IMS 
sysprog and I always say eye-em-ess and not ims. Lately I have been hearing 
people say zos while I say Zed Oh Ess and sometimes Zee Oh Ess

--- Someone wrote:
> I have been sayyng kicks for as long as I have been involved in IBM 
> mainframe, starting in the US in 1982 and on and off until now.  The US is 
> not my home country so I count myself as international.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

I suppose this is based on rhyming slang?  I wouldn't begin to know how to 
decipher it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The first virtue is to restrain the tongue; he approaches nearest to the 
gods who knows how to be silent, even though he be in the right.  -Cato the 
Younger (BC 95-46) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rupert Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 03:10

Back in the days of analogue mobile phones, I used phonetics a lot!

Once or twice, I used the Cockney phonetics ;-)

A for 'orses
B for mutton
C for miles
...
X for breakfast
Y for girlfriend
Z for a joke  (i.e. 'said for a joke')

--- On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 00:23 Bob Bridges,  wrote:
> Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use 
> alpha / bravo / charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is 
> probably unmistakable.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[John McKown]

I'm a Texan ( it's a whole nother country 🤠). I have started saying zed
like the Brits. Zee is too easy to confuse with cee, tee, and pee.

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023, 16:00 Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

> I was giving a talk to some of our guys in Phoenix about REXX. About an
> hour into my talk, one of the guys said, "excuse me, what is 'zed'' ". Oops
> "zee".
>
> Always amazed how US English strayed from the home origins.
>
> In the North of England we always said zebbra not zeebra. Sarf and Norf are
> completely different.
>
> On Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 07:35 Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> > In English the letter 'z' is a voiced 's'.
> >
> > I believe the Italians pronounce it 'ts' like the Germans.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* If you're going to walk on thin ice, you may as well dance. */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Bernd Oppolzer
> > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 16:10
> >
> > not exactly "six" ... more like "tsix", the first letter sounds like a Z
> > in Germany, a letter T followed by a letter S.
> >
> > It comes to my mind that most other languages don't pronounce the letter
> Z
> > this way, only we Germans do ... the other (like French and English)
> simply
> > say S.
> > For example zebra. How do you pronounce it? The word is the same in all
> > three languages, I guess ...
> > We say t-s-ebra.
> >
> > --- Am 17.03.2023 um 20:36 schrieb René Jansen:
> > > I’ve heard Germans say ‘six’; in Dutch we say ‘kicks’ like the Brits.
> >
> > --
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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jay Maynard]

This Texan always spelled out CICS, and pronounces the piece of networking
equipment, the woodworking tool, and the path taken on a trip with the same
vowel value, rOWt.

My roommate is from north central Wisconsin, and does so as well...and
hates Bobby Troup for "Route 66"'s pronunciation.

On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 5:29 AM Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw <
032fff1be9b4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> In Australia "rooter" means something rather different, so I suggest you
> don't look it up.
> I was always surprised that most of my USA friends say rowt , but they all
> agree they get their kicks (CICS?) on root 66.
> Lennie
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of
> Jeremy Nicoll
> Sent: 18 March 2023 01:49
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
>
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> > Very interesting discussion.
> >
> > I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
> > word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different
> > opinions. And I learned in the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like
> > "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other,
> > maybe) "row-ter".
>
> In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
> for the woodworking tool.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
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-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

In Australia "rooter" means something rather different, so I suggest you
don't look it up.
I was always surprised that most of my USA friends say rowt , but they all
agree they get their kicks (CICS?) on root 66.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: 18 March 2023 01:49
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the 
> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different 
> opinions. And I learned in the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like 
> "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other,
> maybe) "row-ter".

In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
for the woodworking tool.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Thank you very much,

the 2nd word is "roden" in today's German language,
roden is the infinitive form.
"Ich rode, Du rodest, er rodet, ..." etc.
a "normal" German verb.

Roden means: cut a (large amount) of trees and leave an area without trees
(Google translate says: clearing, the German word is: Lichtung).

I didn't know about this homonym so far.

Thank you again.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 18.03.2023 um 05:57 schrieb Tony Harminc:

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 21:38, Bernd Oppolzer  wrote:

Very interesting discussion.

I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I 
learned in
the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to spell 
the other,
maybe) "row-ter".

There are two quite different words here, with variants, conversions
n->v, v->n and so on, with ultimately quite different meanings and,
uh, roots. It's only coincidence that the spelling - and some people's
pronunciation -  has ended up the same.

First is the one that has do do with choosing or making a direction of
travel, which is verbing of the noun route, which then gets re-noun'd
to router.

This is pronounced /ruːtə/ in the UK and /raʊdər/ in the US. As
someone said, Canadians are split.

This is (part of) the OED's description of that root:

"Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymon: French route.
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman and Old French rute, Anglo-Norman and Old
French, Middle French rote, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle
French, French route, Middle French routte way, direction (first
quarter of the 12th cent.), course (of a ship) (c1160), path,
passageway (c1170), the course of a military march (a1683) < classical
Latin rupta (short for via rupta broken way), feminine of ruptus
broken, past participle of rumpere to break (see rumpent n.); compare
rumpere viam to open up a path. Compare post-classical Latin ruta ,
rutta way, road (13th cent. in British sources; 14th cent. in
continental sources).

The pronunciation with a diphthong is recorded from the second half of
the 18th cent. and preferred by some, but not all commentators at that
time; it disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America.

  a. A way or course taken in moving from a starting point to a
destination; a regular line of travel or passage; the course of a
river, stream, etc. Also: a means of passage; a way in or out. Cf. en
route adv.Often with modifying word indicating the purpose of travel;
for more established compounds, as air, bus, lane-, migration-, red,
silk, stock-, trade route, etc., see the first element.

router
Electronics and Computing.

A device, circuit, algorithm, etc., which serves to determine the
destinations of individual incoming signals; esp. a device which
receives data packets and forwards them to the appropriate computer
network or part of a network."


The kind of router that removes wood comes from a different root,
pronounced raʊt in both modern UK and North American dialects:

"2. a. Woodworking. Any of various hand tools for working and shaping
grooves, rebates, and mouldings, having a narrow, often profiled,
cutter; (in later use) spec. a router plane.
  b. A machine or power tool for working and shaping grooves,
rebates, and mouldings in wood or other materials, often following a
prescribed outline."

from the verb route:
"3. b. transitive. Originally: to cut a groove or other recess in the
surface of (a material, as wood, metal, etc.) by using any of various
tools; to cut (a groove or recess) in this way. Later: to cut or work
at by using an electric router or similar tool to remove material."

in turn from wroot, v.
"Etymology: Old English wrótan , = Old Frisian *wrôta (West Frisian
wrotte , North Frisian wrote , wröte , wrät ), Middle Low German
wroten (Low German wröten ), Middle Dutch and Dutch wroeten (Antwerp
dialect wruten ), Old High German *wrôzian , ruozian to plough up, Old
Norse and Icelandic róta , (Middle) Swedish and Norwegian rota ,
Danish rode ), < wrót wroot n."

So in summary, the word that involves sending packets somewhere comes
into English from Latin, and the one to do with grooves in wood and
the like from old Germanic roots.


While doing this research, I found out that the American way to pronounce 
things often
is the OLD british way to do it, which was common in GB in the 19th century or 
earlier,
and which then changed in GB, but stayed like it was in the US of America.

Yeah - it's normal for the language of emigrants to be more
conservative than that of those who stay behind. As above, where
/raʊt/ "disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America."

Tony H.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Rupert Reynolds]

Back in the days of analogue mobile phones, I used phonetics a lot!

Once or twice, I used the Cockney phonetics ;-)

A for 'orses
B for mutton
C for miles
...
X for breakfast
Y for girlfriend
Z for a joke  (i.e. 'said for a joke')

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 00:23 Bob Bridges,  wrote:

> Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use alpha /
> bravo / charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is probably
> unmistakable.
>
> I'm always surprised how many help-desk folks are perfectly comfortable
> with that alphabet.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>
>

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Laurence Chiu]

>
>
> I have been sayyng kicks for as long as I have been involved in IBM
mainframe, starting in the US in 1982 and on and off until now.  The US is
not my home country so I count myself as international.

Note that since CICS came from Hursley and the Brits say kicks, then that
is the right pronunciation. But it's very irregular since I used to be an
IMS sysprog and I always say eye-em-ess and not ims. Lately I have been
hearing people say zos while I say Zed Oh Ess and sometimes Zee Oh Ess

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Tony Harminc]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 21:38, Bernd Oppolzer  wrote:
>
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the
> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I 
> learned in
> the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to 
> spell the other,
> maybe) "row-ter".

There are two quite different words here, with variants, conversions
n->v, v->n and so on, with ultimately quite different meanings and,
uh, roots. It's only coincidence that the spelling - and some people's
pronunciation -  has ended up the same.

First is the one that has do do with choosing or making a direction of
travel, which is verbing of the noun route, which then gets re-noun'd
to router.

This is pronounced /ruːtə/ in the UK and /raʊdər/ in the US. As
someone said, Canadians are split.

This is (part of) the OED's description of that root:

"Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymon: French route.
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman and Old French rute, Anglo-Norman and Old
French, Middle French rote, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle
French, French route, Middle French routte way, direction (first
quarter of the 12th cent.), course (of a ship) (c1160), path,
passageway (c1170), the course of a military march (a1683) < classical
Latin rupta (short for via rupta broken way), feminine of ruptus
broken, past participle of rumpere to break (see rumpent n.); compare
rumpere viam to open up a path. Compare post-classical Latin ruta ,
rutta way, road (13th cent. in British sources; 14th cent. in
continental sources).

The pronunciation with a diphthong is recorded from the second half of
the 18th cent. and preferred by some, but not all commentators at that
time; it disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America.

 a. A way or course taken in moving from a starting point to a
destination; a regular line of travel or passage; the course of a
river, stream, etc. Also: a means of passage; a way in or out. Cf. en
route adv.Often with modifying word indicating the purpose of travel;
for more established compounds, as air, bus, lane-, migration-, red,
silk, stock-, trade route, etc., see the first element.

router
Electronics and Computing.

A device, circuit, algorithm, etc., which serves to determine the
destinations of individual incoming signals; esp. a device which
receives data packets and forwards them to the appropriate computer
network or part of a network."


The kind of router that removes wood comes from a different root,
pronounced raʊt in both modern UK and North American dialects:

"2. a. Woodworking. Any of various hand tools for working and shaping
grooves, rebates, and mouldings, having a narrow, often profiled,
cutter; (in later use) spec. a router plane.
 b. A machine or power tool for working and shaping grooves,
rebates, and mouldings in wood or other materials, often following a
prescribed outline."

from the verb route:
"3. b. transitive. Originally: to cut a groove or other recess in the
surface of (a material, as wood, metal, etc.) by using any of various
tools; to cut (a groove or recess) in this way. Later: to cut or work
at by using an electric router or similar tool to remove material."

in turn from wroot, v.
"Etymology: Old English wrótan , = Old Frisian *wrôta (West Frisian
wrotte , North Frisian wrote , wröte , wrät ), Middle Low German
wroten (Low German wröten ), Middle Dutch and Dutch wroeten (Antwerp
dialect wruten ), Old High German *wrôzian , ruozian to plough up, Old
Norse and Icelandic róta , (Middle) Swedish and Norwegian rota ,
Danish rode ), < wrót wroot n."

So in summary, the word that involves sending packets somewhere comes
into English from Latin, and the one to do with grooves in wood and
the like from old Germanic roots.

> While doing this research, I found out that the American way to pronounce 
> things often
> is the OLD british way to do it, which was common in GB in the 19th century 
> or earlier,
> and which then changed in GB, but stayed like it was in the US of America.

Yeah - it's normal for the language of emigrants to be more
conservative than that of those who stay behind. As above, where
/raʊt/ "disappears from standard British English in the course of the
19th cent., but is still widespread in North America."

Tony H.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

In the US, I've heard only ROW-ter (or ROUT-er if you prefer) for both
kinds.  But you can hear both pronunciations, "ROOT" and "ROUT", for "route"
as in a county road.  I think "root" was more usual when I grew up in
Minnesota, but "rowt" is more what I hear here in NC.

...Which is ironic, sort of, because certain words such as "root", "hoof"
and "roof" were pronounced to rhyme with "book" and "cook" in the Midwest
and all three rhyme with "boot" in the east.  I had a classmate in high
school, when I moved to Pennsylvania, whose name was Scott Root, and when I
pronounced it like "put" he thought I was making fun of his name.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it
over?  -Penny Hines */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 21:49

In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
for the woodworking tool.

--- On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the 
> word "router" is, because here in Germany there are different 
> opinions. And I learned in the end, that BOTH ways are correct, like 
> "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other,
> maybe) "row-ter".

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
> Very interesting discussion.
>
> I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the 
> word "router" is,
> because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I learned in 
> the end, that BOTH
> ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other, 
> maybe) "row-ter".

In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter"
for the woodworking tool.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Very interesting discussion.

I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the 
word "router" is,
because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I learned in 
the end, that BOTH
ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other, 
maybe) "row-ter".


While doing this research, I found out that the American way to 
pronounce things often
is the OLD british way to do it, which was common in GB in the 19th 
century or earlier,

and which then changed in GB, but stayed like it was in the US of America.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 17.03.2023 um 22:45 schrieb Pew, Curtis G:

On Mar 17, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
mailto:wayn...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Always amazed how US English strayed from the home origins.

Sorry to be pedantic (language history is kind of a hobby of mine), but British 
English has “strayed” from what it was in the 17th and 18th centuries as much 
as American English. Not to mention that there was even more regional variation 
in dialects back then than there is now, and some American dialects reflect 
now-vanished British dialects.

Languages constantly change, and when groups separate they change in different 
ways.


--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Jay Maynard]

I once had to call Mercedes-Benz Customer Service to let them know I had
purchased a new (to me) used car. I gave them the VIN using the iCAO
phonetics. The customer service rep commented on how it was refreshing to
get someone who knew how to give letters phonetically...

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 7:23 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use alpha /
> bravo / charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is probably
> unmistakable.
>
> I'm always surprised how many help-desk folks are perfectly comfortable
> with that alphabet.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* I know God won't give me more than I can handle.  But there are times I
> wish He didn't trust me quite so much.  -anonymous, but speaks for most of
> us. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jay Maynard
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 18:18
>
> I've always pronounced my ham callsign kay five zed see ...but I use "zee"
> elsewhere. "Zed" works better under marginal conditions.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>


-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

Under marginal conditions (which includes cell-phone calls) I use alpha / bravo 
/ charlie / ... / x-ray / yankee / zulu.  But "zed" is probably unmistakable.

I'm always surprised how many help-desk folks are perfectly comfortable with 
that alphabet.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I know God won't give me more than I can handle.  But there are times I wish 
He didn't trust me quite so much.  -anonymous, but speaks for most of us. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 18:18

I've always pronounced my ham callsign kay five zed see ...but I use "zee"
elsewhere. "Zed" works better under marginal conditions.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Bob Bridges]

I'm pretty sure Wayne was kidding.  But heck, who can resist a little pedantry 
now and then?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Democracy is three wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner.  -C B Low 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 17:46

Sorry to be pedantic (language history is kind of a hobby of mine), but British 
English has “strayed” from what it was in the 17th and 18th centuries as much 
as American English. Not to mention that there was even more regional variation 
in dialects back then than there is now, and some American dialects reflect 
now-vanished British dialects.

Languages constantly change, and when groups separate they change in different 
ways.

--- On Mar 17, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
mailto:wayn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Always amazed how US English strayed from the home origins.

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Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)

[Mike Schwab]

Spelling over adverse voice transmission is best dealt with by using
the NATO phonetic alphabet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 5:18 PM Jay Maynard  wrote:
>
> I've always pronounced my ham callsign kay five zed see ...but I use "zee"
> elsewhere. "Zed" works better under marginal conditions.
>
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 4:00 PM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>
> > I was giving a talk to some of our guys in Phoenix about REXX. About an
> > hour into my talk, one of the guys said, "excuse me, what is 'zed'' ". Oops
> > "zee".
> >
> > Always amazed how US English strayed from the home origins.
> >
> > In the North of England we always said zebbra not zeebra. Sarf and Norf are
> > completely different.
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 07:35 Bob Bridges  wrote:
> >
> > > In English the letter 'z' is a voiced 's'.
> > >
> > > I believe the Italians pronounce it 'ts' like the Germans.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> > >
> > > /* If you're going to walk on thin ice, you may as well dance. */
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > > Of Bernd Oppolzer
> > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 16:10
> > >
> > > not exactly "six" ... more like "tsix", the first letter sounds like a Z
> > > in Germany, a letter T followed by a letter S.
> > >
> > > It comes to my mind that most other languages don't pronounce the letter
> > Z
> > > this way, only we Germans do ... the other (like French and English)
> > simply
> > > say S.
> > > For example zebra. How do you pronounce it? The word is the same in all
> > > three languages, I guess ...
> > > We say t-s-ebra.
> > >
> > > --- Am 17.03.2023 um 20:36 schrieb René Jansen:
> > > > I’ve heard Germans say ‘six’; in Dutch we say ‘kicks’ like the Brits.
> > >
> > > --
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> > >
> >
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>
>
> --
> Jay Maynard
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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