Re: [ilugd] Mailing list stats
On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 11:25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Few queries and observations > 1. What is noise Pankaj has already given the answer to that in his posting. Look at the first few lines in his mail, they say: "Total Lines" does not count attachments, only the main body of the message. Messages which contain only attachments count as 0 lines. "Original lines" are the subset of "Total Lines" that are not preceeded by ">". "Noise" is the other part -- the quoted material. The stats willbe off for HTML messages - Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Planning a maiden Linux setup
Sorry, forgot to mention: We run LTSP 3.X series on Red Hat 9. The norm is that disk-less workstations boot off the network server. We have a separate machine which acts as our internet gateway and mail server. It might help to understand our setup better.. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Planning a maiden Linux setup
Hi Anand, Don't have any technical suggestions, but there seem to be some similarities in the situation that you describe, and what we have in our office. We are an NGO. When we first started almost three years ago, it was decided to have a FLOSS network- and no proprietary software. On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 08:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I am planning to setup a large, maiden linux desktop installation in a > Windows Centric Environment. Hard realities at ground (1) 99% users > will be first timers, many may not have heard of it before!! When we started, 100% users were first timers. And to this day, most new people who join haven't heard about Linux- the poor souls at recruitment don't know what they are in for! But at the end of the day- they all work with Linux- and do not hanker for Windows. > (2) Lack of trained support staff, learn by burning your hands, looks > like to be the fact of day. Yes, indeed, that's what happened with us also, though we do have a great consultant. Today, we have 13 terminals runnings. We never had any trained support staff- whatever daily support that is currently needed is given by me- and I have learnt everything from scratch- with a lot of heartache and pain, but only sometimes ;-). And I have NO technical background at all. And yet, my office functions fine.Our systems are NEVER down, and I yet have to come across any major problem thrown up by my users which I have not been able to solve- with a little guidance over the phone, and google, and man pages... Hence, my experience: - you don't have to be a geek to administer a linux network. All you need is a willingness to learn- and hard work. - equally important: you need a lot of patience and a rather thick skin: one is bound to come across people who want "mera windows wala icon"! One has to survive them- and believe me, I have managed. one should have one's arguments and explanations in place before you start.. - in one sense, it is easier for people to migrate if they are given no choice (i know it sounds autocratic, but that's what worked for us. We did not want pirated software for legal reasons, and we couldn't afford licensed copies. now, the general users don't even ask for windows) - an encouraging consultant- whom you can call up and who will walk you through your initial baby steps: that is an indispensable factor! Hope this helps. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
[ilugd] need 64-bit distro
Hi, I need to know if anyone has any Linux distros for EM64T/AMD64? I already have Ubuntu, looking specifically for FC4, and also interested in anything else available. Also, does anyone have K12 LTSP 4.4.1.? Location not a consideration, I can have it picked up from anywhere in Delhi/Noida/Gurgaon. Thought of posting to the cd mailing list, but it seems pretty inactive. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ Event: Freedel 2005, 17th & 18th September, 2005 - http://freedel.in
Re: [ilugd] Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden
On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 10:11, Raj Shekhar wrote: > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050911153013536 Thanks, good reading. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ Event: Freedel 2005, 17th & 18th September, 2005 - http://freedel.in
Re: [ilugd] Women in Free Software, by Fernanda G. Weiden
On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 10:11, Raj Shekhar wrote: > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050911153013536 Thanks, good reading. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ Event: Freedel 2005, 17th & 18th September, 2005 - http://freedel.in
Re: [ilugd] (fwd) [foss.in] Get involved *now*!
On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 22:58, Raj Mathur wrote: > >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [Not quoting any of the mail, because it's not necessary] Hi, I am relatively new to the community, and not yet a year old to the ILUGD mailing list. I don't know who Atul Chitnis is, but I gather he is from the FOSS community/LUG/whatever in Bangalore. I have not gone into finding out in great detail about FOSS.IN, though I am very much aware of the debate between proprietary/non-proprietary, FOSS, commercial, free software. My post is not about any of these things. My post is to object to the tone in which Atul presumes to address the community. As a member of the community, I have this opinion to offer (which of course may be completely wrong according to some people): If this is the manner in which you talk to the rest of/part of the community, then your event might still be a success, but the amount of goodwill and cooperation you are able to generate will be miniscule. Apart from the debate over issues, if you insist on showing off in such a distasteful and condescending manner, it will not help. (On the other hand, if this is not important to you, I apologise for the presumption). And I resent your assumption that members of ILUGD are so much sheep waiting to follow whatever Raju (or any of the powers-that-be) says. I have had great differences with all of them, am still on the mailing list, and would like to be credited with the intellectual capacity and objectivity of making up my own mind on whether to participate in something or not. The debate on FOSS.IN is quite possibly relevant. The tone in which it is being conducted most definitely is not. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ Event: Freedel 2005, 17th & 18th September, 2005 - http://freedel.in
Re: [ilugd] eye for photography
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 12:36, Nitin Chandra wrote: > Saurabh > u do have an eye for photography. some really cool > shots of ur Korean trip, and the moments are also > caught well. > above the regular stuff. great work. hope to get to > see more. > > Nitin *sigh* i thought there was enough said about hijacking threads? Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 11:33, Saurabh Nanda wrote: > > Rant stops here... go back to work and be more productive. > > Nandz. Just proves people aren't actually reading the HOW TO. This mail, and the one it is responding to (Manpreet's) would be enough to keep women off the list- now I fully understand why no woman has responded to this thread. Evolution, education, civilisation- have got us nowhere... Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 10:58, Raj Mathur wrote: > > Hassath> Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE > Hassath> WOMEN IN LINUX which I sent in my earlier posting? At > Hassath> least that might indicate to members that the list has at > Hassath> least thought about making things woman-friendly. > > Can do. Thanks, much appreciated. > > There isn't much there that applies to a group as a whole -- it's > mostly what individuals can do to encourage women to feel comfortable > and participate. Apart from the ``Keep meeting is an accessible > location'', there's nothing there that the LUG as a whole can do. The attitude of the individual members of the group will make a difference. Anyway, whether as individuals, or as a group- if those suggestions were followed- they would go a long way. And to begin with, if more people would read the HOW TO, it would help. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:47, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > > Suggestions about what to do next: > No, I think it's imperative that people stop associating the idea of > encouraging women to participate with yet-another-talk about "how to > encourage women to participate". > > I think we should try instead to figure out whom we can invite to talk > about something that doesn't just become a freak sideshow attraction. > What are women using Linux for? What interests them? If we talk about > those things, then they might be encouraged to participate. Indeed, if I felt that I would be treated as just another human being with an interest in FLOSS, I would feel encouraged- I (or any other woman) would dislike being looked at as the 'freak' who decided to be there... > > > c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG posting > > methods/rules. > > Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say: > > "Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though." Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN IN LINUX which I sent in my earlier posting? At least that might indicate to members that the list has at least thought about making things woman-friendly. I find it very interesting and telling that when the thread was being general, there were many posts to and fro- defensive and offensive. But after I have requested people to go through the HOW TO- nobody, nobody has responded to that (is it useful? Can they think of applying any of those to the delhi LUG?.) Does it say something about the seriousness of those who said that they want feedback from a woman? That HOW TO is written by a whole lot of women. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 14:13, Prashant Verma wrote: > Dear Abhijit and Hassath, > > I wanted to say that Nitin may have a point there. > Nitin has mentioned that what he intended to say is > not what you understood from his email. Hi Prashant, I am actually quite tired of all this- like i mentioned in my previous posting- it's not my style at all. But since you have brought it up, let me say- I have responded to Nitin's posting in a certain manner because there is enough of a background to leave no reasonable doubt as to what his attitude is. I really dislike going into finger-pointing like this, but I am left with no option but to paste below a couple of clips from nitin's earlier mails- hopefully, they will illustrate why i have got angry. I repeat, I generally don't like having to stoop to this, but you leave me no option, hopefully this will put an end to this. "Well if the context of my statment is not understood by some people who are challanged..." "Been there experienced that. Well I HAVE BEEN CATCALLED N WISTLED BY GROUP OF WOMEN UNKNOWN TO ME , SO let not make those kind of statments again. As from your statment i undestand that women are so dammingly oppressed.THAT IS your understanding...MY BELIEF IS WOMEN HAVE EQUAL RIGHT TO WORK AND PARTY." The term "women are so dammingly oppressed"- is enough! And then, who can say, looking around himself, that women have an equal right to work and party? It has to be someone who does not want to see the reality of one-half of the world's population. The remark being discussed as being 'misrepresented' is this one: "where by women can accept men as they are and STILL come forward and make a difference rather than "be in the stand and comment". So women can crib OR make a difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux. My request and invitation is for women to accept men as they are and step forward and play in then LUG field and make an enormous difference." whether in the context of this mailing list, or anything larger, I think it is NOT ok to tell women to accept men as they are. I will NOT accept any of the men on this mailing list- I will NOT accept sexist jokes or remarks, and I will NOT accept it when anyone tries to dilute the issue at hand. If this makes someone uncomfortable, then I can't help it. Now- I have indeed moved on by giving suggestions- asking people to look at a specific link, at the very least. I am NOT interested in these kind of postings anymore, and will not respond to them. Prashant, if you are indeed interested (and anybody else on the list who is listening)- please read up the HOW TO, and then come back- maybe we could have a more useful discussion then. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 11:50, Nitin Chandra wrote: > > I cant begin to comprehend the limited vision with > which the context of my statment is understood. :) > Well if this is the way individuals have an > understanding, so be it...I Accept their level of > understanding. > > No more "social cause" statments from me. :) > > Nitin > Since I was requested to point out every objectionable mail/post/thought/joke: I find it objectionable- the implication that I have understood something larger is because of my "limited vision" and "level of understanding". Thanks Nitin, for cooperating by offering to withhold such statements. Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:55, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: > On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 2:32 pm, Raj Mathur wrote: > Actually Raj, now that I have re-read it, I agree with Hassath that it is > *potentially* offensive to women. While it might be perceived as humorous to > men, it appears condescending to women, and hence seems insulting. > > Since the blog is the official face of Freedel till the main site comes up, I > am making some changes as Hassath has pointed out, *with* an appropriate > notice that this is not the original post. > Thanks Sandip, for making the correction on Freedel. And I would like to say that it was not potentially, but very emphatically in-the-face offensive to women, and anybody else with the sensibility. And I am not labouring a point. If men can see and accept an objection for what it is, without attempting to dilute it, it would help things change for the better. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > But it always helps to have the "other" around. In fact the more others > the better it will get I hope > > ram > Thanks Ram. At any rate, I am not interested in exchanging insults and accusations.(It's not a woman's way, honestly ;-)) Those who are capable of seeing the point, would have seen it already.So here's at least a couple of points- as to what can be done: 1. I am pasting below a link- though not Indian in context, still helpful. Even those of you who have seen it earlier, please try to go through it again, especially in the context of the postings on this thread. http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ 2. Secondly, if there is ever a discussion like this, all the men could help by refraining from pointing out to the (lone) woman what is wrong with her attitude / nature of her postings. Instead, it would help if you pointed out to the people who are being obviously offensive that it is not ok. I acknowledge and appreciate that a few of you have indeed done that in this case, and I would like to thank them. And hope that more of you do that. You see, help, appreciation, support- articulated and expressed, would make the whole space more comfortable. 3. Perhaps I don't need to respond to the remark about women having to accept men as they are- it has been responded to. But I just want to make the point that it is the kind of remark that is enough to make a woman want to withdraw from the list. No woman is obliged to accept any man for what he is. (And vice versa). That remark illustrates the attitude that men are god's gift to womankind. I am very sorry to disillusion you, but they are most certainly NOT 4. Whenever the next meeting is scheduled, I will try to make it- if I can arrange my schedule accordingly. Please do try and see if you know any other women who would also come (I don't know of any at the moment). I repeat, I did not enter this discussion in an accusatory tone. Nor am I naive enough to believe that changes happen overnight, or that they are complete when they do happen. But I am willing to try. All help from anyone who thinks it's worthwhile- is welcome. Regards, Hassath PS: I have had a mail addressed to me off-list, which is the kind of thing I would say would put off less determined (stubborn?) women. But here I am, nevertheless ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:33, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: > On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 1:19 pm, hassath wrote: > Hassath, let us discuss this without getting bitter. I understand the > frustation, and I do agree with AMS that atmosphere in the LUG meets is > something that will make women (or children or any elderly people) > uncomfortable. > > Like someone recently said - nobody tries to make the environment > women-unfriendly. However, while I agree that the atmosphere is not right, I > also have to bring it to your attention that this is a chicken and egg > situation too. Because there are no girls or women or children generally at > these meets, people have conversation in a manner which would otherwise not > be acceptable in front of other sections of the population. > > We have had this discussion before, yes, but the reasons why they were > inconclusive was because it was discussed primarily between us males only. > > Hassath, there are certain aspects of male conversation which we know are not > appropriate if women are around (jokes about pr0n, for example). However, > there are many other aspects which only a woman can sensitize us about. As > you pointed out, you found an official announcement in bad taste. There would > be some parts of that which are immediately understandable as being > inappropriate. However, there might be other parts of the conversation which > might not be so clear to others. We need help on this from women like you. > Please help us "clean" out all our official announcements on Freedel, for > instance. > > Just as we need people with experience in dealing with physically challenged > persons, to sensitize us about building accessible technology, we need help > from women professionals like you who deal with such issues everyday, to help > make ILUGD more "friendly" to all sections of the population. (Uh. huh. Bad > analogy -> might be taken otherwise by certain people. I am not trying to > make any insinuation about women being challenged in anyway. ... Sigh. See > how difficult being politically correct all the time is?) > > - Sandip Yeah, if being gender sensitive is so difficult, and being patriarchal is so easy, maybe I made a mistake in raising the issue. And Sandip, my bitterness is not the bitterness of this thread on this mailing list- it is the bitterness of countless women being marginalised and being subjected to patriarchy by the dominant sex over centuries in various fields of life. Why can't you all help with empowerment- so that women don't feel bitter? I repeat- I am not bitter against the few males who have helped me learn what I do know, as far as FLOSS is concerned. If you can't take a certain amount of bitterness from the marginalised, then maybe you shouldn't be interacting with them. Have you noticed what has made me bitter- even limiting it to the list? Please try to understand. If bitterness becomes more of the issue,than the issue- then i really don't know. Like i said, I brought up the issue cos i thought the list was actually interested in changes. If it isn't, then sorry- I take my hands off. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > Well thats the standard arguement " accept us as we are ". > So one is not expected to change for the better. > > > men are abusive so let them be - accept them as they are > men can harass women - accept that > men can use crude and filthy language - accept that. > Men are wife / women beaters - so let them be - accept them as that > > I wonder if you will take any form of filthy language thats aimed at > your being, your sex, your caste your height or whatever. Esp if it > comes from someone more powerful that you. Or if its been systemaic over > the ages - centuries. > > So patriarchy is okay - just as much as facism is okay. - **Really* > > ***Come on** - just go through the entire discussion and try and see > whats been said. > > Make an attempt to understand, to see the issues involved. Thanks a lot, ram- i don't think i could have said it better. It just proves- you don't have to be a woman to understand these issues. > > I thought it was some of the men who were asking why aren't there more > women on this list. Maybe women don't need this list at all or they > don't need to interact with the men that this list is showing up ??? > I think this thread has just proved the point- perhaps I don't need to spend my energy interacting with such men... On the other hand, perhaps they need to hear more of the "other" perspective... Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:07, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > At 2005-08-19 13:32:33 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > the prevailing atmosphere??? > > Right. I can answer that question better now, mostly by having studied > the responses in this thread. Let's have a look, shall we? > > 1. Denial. "What's wrong with the atmosphere, dammit?" > > 2. Proof-by-anecdote that everything is just fine. > > 3. Cheap digs disguised as humour. You know, the kind where, if anyone >objects, one can look injured and say, "But it was a joke! Don't >women have a sense of humour?" > > 4. "If only women bothered to show up more often, they'd see that >everything is really all right." > > 5. "We've done all we can. It's up to someone else now." > > Oh, and when the subject of encouraging women to participate *does* come > up, there's usually this undercurrent of "Yeah, we need more hot chicks > in this group, man!" > > The consequent feeling: Ugh. Better not get involved. > > -- ams Thanks ams- i agree with all your points. I want to add another one, which i have mentioned in my response to Pankaj- the freedel blog has a posting (the top one) by raju which has an offensive "attempt at humour". I would like to emphasise yet again- these "jokes" are not a reflection of a good sense of humour. And when a woman like me raises an objection, it is NOT a case of being oversensitive- if you can't see that and continue to behave like that- yes, women will be put off. I will be much obliged if i don't have to see "jokes" like that again on this list or on the blog. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:25, Pankaj kaushal wrote: > > I am neither discomforted by the discussion nor am I complacent, merely > un-interested in discussions without a result. If there is a result-less discussion, maybe you could take more responsibility for it- you too are part of this list. What a typically privileged attitude -" Oh, nothing comes out of these discussions!" If you saw it as being in your interest, if you took ownership, you would try and get things to change. > > This was exactly my point, males *do* dominate various fields, similarly > there are many fields that are dominated by women, teaching for > example. All I wanted to say was that we have a bigger issue at hand. > Its not just that it is *linux* and the language of linux that is > intimidating to women thus they stay away. > > This group is a open community, anyone can raise her voice, if there are > women on this list and meetings who feel that the *prevailing > atmosphere* is unfriendly and discouraging then this issue must be > raised by pointing out what exactly makes one un-welcome and it must be > addressed. "And we men shall sit back till such time as this happens, and will not be discomforted by the fact that there is no fair representation. It is not our responsibility as the privileged gender to make any initiatives- let the marginalised look after themselves. Amen." > > This subject does come up every now and then, people wonder why more > women don't participate, they raise the issue and say, we should do > something about it. The thread reaches 50 and everyone forgets about it > because nobody knows what to do. > > You have made a start by raising the issue once again. Lets not dwell > into the the nature of society at large As for "not dwelling into the nature of society at large"- i am sorry, i am incapable of seeing things in isolation and closing my eyes to larger connections- and i do not see it as a failing. > but make this group, which you > made yourself a part of by subscribing to the mailing-list a little more > comfortable for women. Well, it will help if you refrain from referring to it (ever again) as "ugly head". And, if you haven't heard any bad jokes, then it just means that you don't see- that you don't see what is offensive to women. If you check the freedel blog right away- the topmost post by raju- if you don't find something objectionable in it- i have only this to say: there are none as blind as those who will not see. And yes, specifically, if you want to make the list comfortable for women, DO NOT put the onus entirely on them- that is guaranteed to offend women. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 22:45, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > At 2005-08-19 17:17:31 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > In all my experiences, I haven't encountered any sexism towards > > females in areas related to computing. Not even bad jokes. > > I wonder if that's because you (and other people) misjudge what might > actually make women uncomfortable. I'm sure nobody at the ilugd meets > would claim to be anti-women, but I've often felt that the prevailing > atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than > once. > > -- ams > Hi all, I was not accessing mail over the weekend- hence the delay. Since there are so many responses to respond to, I think I will just address each one briefly. I haven't seen anything on the list guidelines to say this is not appropriate, but if someone does feel so, they are welcome to make the point. Thanks Kishore, for the invitation to talk. I would have loved to take it up, if i felt there was something concrete for me to talk about- but like I said, I myself am exploring. But I do plan to be there at the event- so hope to put faces to all these names then :-) As for LL's nail-polish mail, I will not comment on-it's part of the problem and an illustration of some men's unwillingness to take the issue seriously... AMS and Raj- point taken. I also agree that the list is not being actively 'woman unfriendly'. Maybe women do need to show up at the ILUG-D meetings and articulate specifically what attitudes/actions they would like to see changes in. (Which means I myself will have to try and make it- as far as my tight schedule allows it! :-)) Thank you AMS for mentioning that the "prevailing atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than once." As far as I can see, if there are some people willing to acknowledge and address the problem, there is hope for discussion and introspection on it- hopefully leading to some attempts at resolution. And Pankaj, this thread repeatedly will raise "its ugly head" because this issue has not been resolved. I am not sorry that it causes discomfort in your complacent world. "that more women aren't using Linux because there is a gender issue relating with technology as a whole. In my experiences males dominate most computer related areas." Welcome to the world- it's not just technology that there is a gender issue to- it is indeed present in every aspect of our lives, and in every corner of the world. A techie will say it's true for technology, a businessman will say it's true for business...media, politics, engineering, medicine- the "gender issue" is ever present. Please look around and notice this. Yes, "males do dominate most computer related areas". And not just computer related areas.It is a fact- but not one to be plainly accepted. The question arises- why is it so? And to take it further, in any field, why is it that the marginalised continue to stay marginalised? Is it because they are genetically predisposed to being marginalised? Or should one ask- What opportunities do they have- are they in any way equal to the opportunities of the more privileged? At this moment, I am talking only about gender, but my concerns extend to all marginalised people, in all areas. It is convenient to say that this is how things are- and be complacent about it. Like you yourself have said- there are men who don't care about alternatives, and similarly, there are women like that. But it DOES NOT mean that its a fact of nature that women are predominantly like that. A baby girl is not born genetically un-inclined towards technology. A baby boy is not born wanting to open up his toy car to see how it works. Socialisation sees to it that women feel underconfident about technology- except when they have gone ahead to specialise in it, and in a few cases, when they have fought against such socialisation. Which is all the more reason for human beings (I am not distinguishing between men and women) who are more priviliged to try to empower those women. And it is possible- I have mentioned my case in brief. The people who have helped me learn what I know, and to do the tasks that I do- are all male. It's just that they were actually interested in my learning. And yet, in the process of my learning, and in my daily work, I continue to face male chauvinism. And this is not a male vs. female debate- I sincerely believe that a healthy balance is good for all human beings- men or women. Whether it's in the world, in the field of technology, or on a mailing list. Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 12:54, Raj Mathur wrote: > > OK, so in your opinion why are there so few women? Is it an innate > issue with perceived geekiness? Or something specific to this list > (or User Group) that keeps them distant? Or do we need to perform > some specific tasks or activities that would get more women > interested? > Well, I can't claim to have the answers myself- I too am exploring, and not "accusing"...And though I can't describe myself as a geek by any stretch, but yes, I do think it is larger than being limited to this specific list. (Lists like linuxchix and grlls-only also mention these things- almost the reason for their existence...) But yes, I have been on this list for a few months, and have not heard anyone actually mention it as a loss- the fact that there are no 'active' women on the list. So I want to know if you guys have ever at any point felt the need for a gender equitable representation on the list? If yes, what steps have you taken to find out the reasons- and try to make it convenient and comfortable for women? I can say what makes me uncomfortable about posting on this list- (i) nobody seems to find anything wrong in a list like this (and is it true for the LUG also? I have not been around long enough) running without active women participants. Just the all-male comfort makes women uncomfortable. (ii) frankly, very often the language is initmidating and 'male'. Like i said, I am not a geek, but yes, I am interested in GNU/Linux. I have no technical background, but I happen to be doing the System Administration for my workplace- works entirely off GNU/Linux- small network of 13 terminals- LTSP, Red Hat. We don't have a "techie" in house- I have been doing the troubleshooting for sometime now, with off-site help from our consultant. I have found no problems with his language (and couple of other people I know who are into GNU/Linux). Obviously, someone in my situation could use all the help and support from a list like this, if only they felt comfortable posting... With the ILUG-D list, it makes me feel like I have wandered into an old boys' gang... What is 'male' about the language and atmosphere?- I think you will have to find out for yourselves- perhaps talking to 'geeky' women you know who have been/are on the list? On the other hand, if you all think its fine as it has been, it can continue as it is Regards, Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?
On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 08:16, Viksit Gaur wrote: > Hullo, > > I was wondering, in reference to Raj's commment.. > > > > Hi D00dz and D00d3tt3z, > > > How many dood3tt3z are actually on this list? :) > > Cheers, > Viksit > > > -- > Viksit Gaur Take it further and ask- if there are few women, why is it so? And if there are a substantial number, why they don't post. And the answer is NOT that there are not enough bright women interested in GNU/Linux. This is too serious a question to be mentioned as an aside... And yes, in case you are 'wondering', I am a woman, and obviously, I am on this list :-)... Hassath ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
