Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[BohwaZ/PHP]

Could not find anything about PDOStmt::setParam either, but I fixed it
for you: http://php.net/pdostatement_bindparam
You're welcome ;)


Ah ah good catch :) I meant bindParam obviously ^^

The fact is http://php.net/bindparam
will return nothing about PDOStatement::bindParam

which is kind of weird :)

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Michael Wallner]

Am Do., 7. Feb. 2019, 10:27 hat BohwaZ/PHP  geschrieben:

> Le 04/02/2019 01:14, azjezz a écrit :
> > In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This
> > sadly may reflect "badly" on the language reputation nowadays.
>
> I find that the main PHP website is quite good actually, the design
> looks modern, it is quite clear and easy to use and it provides great
> access to documentation.
>


Yeah, I think so, too. Thank you Levi et al!


> I have to say the PHP documentation is usually great (and when it's not,
> just change it :) ), and the feature where you can just type
> php.net/function to get direct access  to the documentation of a
> function/feature is great, although it doesn't search in methods, eg.
> http://php.net/setParam will not return anything about PDOStmt::setParam
>


Could not find anything about PDOStmt::setParam either, but I fixed it for
you: http://php.net/pdostatement_bindparam
You're welcome ;)


I also love the comments feature, people often provide great examples,
> tips or replacement functions for old PHP versions, this is very
> helpful!
>
> So I don't think that we need to redesign and start over, but iterate
> and make the current website better, please don't throw out what is
> already good :) It would be a recipe for disaster.
>
> But I have to agree that signing to the internals list wasn't an easy
> task as the website form wasn't working when I subscribed 2 years ago,
> but it might have been fixed?
>
> > # FrontEnd Framework
> >
> > We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight
> > options out there.
>
> Please only use HTML and CSS, don't use a JS framework. The website
> should be future-proof and not broken and hard to maintain in 6 months.
> Also it should be lightweight and not download a bunch of code just to
> display stuff. HTML and CSS are more than plenty for our needs :)
>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

Hello Bohwaz,

i think you should take a look at the mock ups[1].

I don't plan on using an JS Framework, the frameworks i suggested are 
lightweight CSS Frameworks.


I'm also planning on keeping the shortcut redirects and maybe even improve them.

[1]: https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, February 7, 2019 10:27 AM, BohwaZ/PHP  wrote:

> Le 04/02/2019 01:14, azjezz a écrit :
>
> > In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This
> > sadly may reflect "badly" on the language reputation nowadays.
>
> I find that the main PHP website is quite good actually, the design
> looks modern, it is quite clear and easy to use and it provides great
> access to documentation.
>
> I have to say the PHP documentation is usually great (and when it's not,
> just change it :) ), and the feature where you can just type
> php.net/function to get direct access to the documentation of a
> function/feature is great, although it doesn't search in methods, eg.
> http://php.net/setParam will not return anything about PDOStmt::setParam
> :(
>
> I also love the comments feature, people often provide great examples,
> tips or replacement functions for old PHP versions, this is very
> helpful!
>
> So I don't think that we need to redesign and start over, but iterate
> and make the current website better, please don't throw out what is
> already good :) It would be a recipe for disaster.
>
> But I have to agree that signing to the internals list wasn't an easy
> task as the website form wasn't working when I subscribed 2 years ago,
> but it might have been fixed?
>
> > FrontEnd Framework
> >
> > ===
> >
> > We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight
> > options out there.
>
> Please only use HTML and CSS, don't use a JS framework. The website
> should be future-proof and not broken and hard to maintain in 6 months.
> Also it should be lightweight and not download a bunch of code just to
> display stuff. HTML and CSS are more than plenty for our needs :)
>
>
> 
>
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php



--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[BohwaZ/PHP]

Le 04/02/2019 01:14, azjezz a écrit :

In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This
sadly may reflect "badly" on the language reputation nowadays.


I find that the main PHP website is quite good actually, the design 
looks modern, it is quite clear and easy to use and it provides great 
access to documentation.


I have to say the PHP documentation is usually great (and when it's not, 
just change it :) ), and the feature where you can just type 
php.net/function to get direct access  to the documentation of a 
function/feature is great, although it doesn't search in methods, eg. 
http://php.net/setParam will not return anything about PDOStmt::setParam 
:(


I also love the comments feature, people often provide great examples, 
tips or replacement functions for old PHP versions, this is very 
helpful!


So I don't think that we need to redesign and start over, but iterate 
and make the current website better, please don't throw out what is 
already good :) It would be a recipe for disaster.


But I have to agree that signing to the internals list wasn't an easy 
task as the website form wasn't working when I subscribed 2 years ago, 
but it might have been fixed?



# FrontEnd Framework

We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight
options out there.


Please only use HTML and CSS, don't use a JS framework. The website 
should be future-proof and not broken and hard to maintain in 6 months. 
Also it should be lightweight and not download a bunch of code just to 
display stuff. HTML and CSS are more than plenty for our needs :)



--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 22:25, azjezz  wrote:

> You are totally right.
>
> in my opinion the the community site should be targeted to all the PHP
> Community ( PHP Developer / Core Developers ) to ask questions about PHP,
> discuss the development of PHP and related topics.
>
> Moderation should be done by a Community Manager and Moderators. ( no idea
> for now who these would be, people we vote for or promoted by core members
> maybe ? )
>
> For the software i would like to suggest https://flarum.org as well.
>


I think there is an important point you're missing here: this is a complex
project on its own, but you're talking about it as just one part of a
"website rewrite". The same is true of many of the other things you've
mentioned in passing - a new bug tracker, a new documentation format, etc.
Those would be great projects, but they're each going to involve weeks of
planning, and probably months of implementation; they also all have
different users you need to agree the project's aims with.

To put it bluntly: you need to decide which one project you want to put
your effort into, and think about what it will involve, what you are
offering to do yourself, and what help you'll need to recruit from others.
Then you can pitch that idea to the people who will be affected, and make
sure people agree with your general direction before you spend too much
time.

Regards,
-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:51 PM, Rowan Collins  
wrote:

> On 05/02/2019 17:32, Tom Worster wrote:
>
> > I have two suggestions, assuming you proceed roughly as outlined in
> > your original post.
> >
> > 1.  Start with /community
> >
> > > A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask
> > > questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
>
> Like all the bold ideas in this thread, that alone would need some
> serious planning and commitment.
>
> Technically, it's easy - assuming you'd just install PHPBB / Gitter /
> whatever, and not try to invent yet another wheel; but building a
> community is hard.
>
> For a start, off the top of my head, you would need to figure out:
>
> -   Who is this community aimed at, and how will you attract them to use it?
> -   Who will moderate it, and according to what policies? (Particularly
> important if you're branding it as "the official PHP community")
>
> -   How will it relate to all the existing community tools (IRC,
> StackOverflow Chat, phpug.slack.com, these mailing lists, etc, etc)?
>
> If you can make it successful, I'm sure it would be a great asset, but
> there's a long and uncertain road between here and there.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Rowan Collins
> [IMSoP]
>
> --
> PHP Webmaster List Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

You are totally right.

in my opinion the the community site should be targeted to all the PHP 
Community ( PHP Developer / Core Developers ) to ask questions about PHP, 
discuss the development of PHP and related topics.

Moderation should be done by a Community Manager and Moderators. ( no idea for 
now who these would be, people we vote for or promoted by core members maybe ? )

For the software i would like to suggest https://flarum.org as well.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:49 PM, Midori Koçak  wrote:

> I can do some design, I designed the UI of CakePHP framework generators in 
> 2015. You can see the whole process here: 
> https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/issues/6679
>
> We should not rely on any css, js or html framework in my opinion. But it's 
> up to you.
>
> For layout, CSS Grid and Flexbox is more than enough and would be future 
> proof, but should be tested and polyfilled.
>
> A lot of cross browser testing will be needed.
>
> Cheers,
> Midori

I'd really appreciate help in this.

if you would like to collaborate in the mock-ups for now, that would be great.

I'm not good enough with CSS so i have used Specter CSS framework in the 
mock-ups, it a lightweight pure CSS framework as i don't see the need for any 
JS yet.

I have sent you an invitation on GitHub, if you would like to join you are 
welcome.

https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/invitations

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On 05/02/2019 17:32, Tom Worster wrote:
I have two suggestions, assuming you proceed roughly as outlined in 
your original post.


1. Start with /community

A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask 
questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.



Like all the bold ideas in this thread, that alone would need some 
serious planning and commitment.


Technically, it's easy - assuming you'd just install PHPBB / Gitter / 
whatever, and not try to invent yet another wheel; but building a 
*community* is hard.


For a start, off the top of my head, you would need to figure out:

* Who is this community aimed at, and how will you attract them to use it?
* Who will moderate it, and according to what policies? (Particularly 
important if you're branding it as "the official PHP community")
* How will it relate to all the existing community tools (IRC, 
StackOverflow Chat, phpug.slack.com, these mailing lists, etc, etc)?


If you can make it successful, I'm sure it would be a great asset, but 
there's a long and uncertain road between here and there.


Regards,

--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Midori Koçak]

I can do some design, I designed the UI of CakePHP framework generators in 
2015. You can see the whole process here: 
https://github.com/cakephp/cakephp/issues/6679

We should not rely on any css, js or html framework in my opinion. But it's up 
to you.

For layout, CSS Grid and Flexbox is more than enough and would be future proof, 
but should be tested and polyfilled.

A lot of cross browser testing will be needed.

Cheers,
Midori

On 04/02/2019, 02:03, "Levi Morrison"  wrote:

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:15 PM azjezz  wrote:
>
> Hello Internals !
>
> As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the 
PHP Project.
>
> In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly 
may reflect "badly" on the language
>
> reputation nowadays.
>
> New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", 
report issues or write RFCs.
>
> Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
>
> Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to 
start working on a new website.
>
> # Global proposal
>
> The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite 
would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
>
> bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
>
> It would be done with this in mind:
>
> * No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
>
> * Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
>
> * This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
>
> * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP 
Logo, a code example maybe and
>
> the download link [3].
>
> * A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask 
questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
>
> * Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account 
to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the 
documentation.
>
> * Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand 
new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
>
> specificities (eg, what server does what).
>
> # FrontEnd Framework
>
> We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight 
options out there.
>
> but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with 
front-end development and will happily contribute.
>
> see :
>
> - https://mustard-ui.com/
>
> - https://getuikit.com/
>
> - https://bulma.io/
>
> - https://picturepan2.github.io/spectre/index.html
>
> # Next steps
>
> I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
>
> [1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
>
> [2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
>
> [3] 
https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
>
> [4] https://php.net/community
>
> ---
>
> Saif Eddin Gmati 

I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:

  
https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png

In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.

I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Tom Worster]

I have two suggestions, assuming you proceed roughly as outlined in your 
original post.


1. Start with /community

A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask 
questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.


and use it to build and coordinate the dev team for this new php.net 
website. If you do a good job and the conversations and culture develop 
nicely then the scope of topics can expand as you already planned. It 
could be a success, providing something I think PHP needs, even if you 
don't reach all the other goals in your project.


2. Don't use a frontend framework. There's so little stability in this 
area that you should plan to own long-term maintenance of whatever you 
use, so it's better to start with your own, picking the ideas you like 
from the work of others.

[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

> Is this your desired look you wanna propose? I may misunderstand and

this is the original proposal :
> https://twitter.com/azjezz/status/1091722433424285698

how ever people seem to lean more toward having releases and changlogs in the 
front-page.


> -   example code (with an option to run)
i have already explored more sites for programming languages and most do have 
code samples and `run` option, but people seem to dislike this idea here.

> -   short description
> -   get started
> -   latest versions
i already added these in the last changes : 
https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups#landing


> -   example code (with an option to run)
> -   features
> -   why this lang and what especially for
> -   some latest news (not few pages as it is right now)
> -   etc.

i don't see how can we fit all this in 1 page.

but i think we can show releases in the sidebar + a button to read more ( see 
changelogs, download links .. etc ) / code sample in the main container / 
features and why this lang under it, and few news cards under with a link to 
/news.

if you have any other ideas please let me know or if you wanna send a PR that 
would be amazing :)

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On 5 February 2019 13:51:45 GMT+00:00, "Johannes Schlüter" 
 wrote:
>I for one don't think we need news going back to 2017 on the frontpage.
>I would like a stronger emphasis on the docs and maybe making the
>search more obvious (you have direct access to all docs from there -
>it's not just a stupid site search!)

Yes, a "most recent N news articles" with a "view older news" link would make 
sense, and give room for some other sections like prominent links to main 
documentation sections, bug tracker, etc.

This would be a good incremental improvement within the current look and feel, 
and is more likely to be completed successfully than several months of 
root-and-branch redesign.

Regards,

-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Johannes Schlüter]

On Mo, 2019-02-04 at 15:32 +0200, Andrey Andreev wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only
> wanted
> to reply to this:
> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing
> > > the PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > the download link [3].
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > [3] https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a
> > > 91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f5844776752
> > > 61662e706e67
> I just hate those useless landing pages.
> 
> Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> 
> I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the
> news,
> changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> be the only one unhappy about that.

I for one don't think we need news going back to 2017 on the frontpage.
I would like a stronger emphasis on the docs and maybe making the
search more obvious (you have direct access to all docs from there -
it's not just a stupid site search!)

johannes

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Michał Brzuchalski]

wt., 5 lut 2019 o 04:32 azjezz  napisał(a):

> ...
> mock ups : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups
> screenshot :
> https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/blob/master/screenshots/getting-started.png
>

Is this your desired look you wanna propose? I may misunderstand and
probably am.
I made a small pinboard [1] with a collection of known programming
languages websites and
thought it might be useful. When I look at some a home page usually exposes:
* short description
* example code (with an option to run)
* get started
* latest versions
* features
* why this lang and what especially for
* some latest news (not few pages as it is right now)
* etc.

When I look at your proposed landing screenshot it doesn't differ much than
what we have now, right?
You've changed the original purple colour, why?

[1] https://pl.pinterest.com/brzuchal/programming-languages/year-2019/
-- 
regards / pozdrawiam,
--
Michał Brzuchalski
about.me/brzuchal
brzuchalski.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Côme Chilliet]

Le lundi 4 février 2019, 14:44:31 CET Rowan Collins a écrit :
> In general, though, I quite like the current site design, and would much
> rather effort was spent iteratively improving it, rather than throwing it
> away and implementing a new set of bugs.
> 
> My personal annoyance is the search result page; specifically, that the
> "Full website search" link appears in the sidebar like it's an
> afterthought, rather than prominently with the search results, or as a
> separate results tab or something.

I agree, I like the current website and design and would see much more value in 
an attempt at fixing small problems one by one rather than trying to redo the 
whole thing at once.

Change the pages organization a bit would improve things, but the design do not 
need to change.

For example I hate how this page https://php.net/support has the "Table of 
Contents" on the right while this one https://php.net/get-involved.php has 
unique information in the same place that you overlook the first time you read 
the page.
When I tried to get involved in PHP the first time, I got to 
https://php.net/get-involved.php, read the "Development of the PHP source" 
section and was like «Hum, ok, but where is the source? Why aren’t there any 
links here?». The stuff in the right column should really be in the middle and 
replaced with a Table of contents for consistency IMO.

Côme

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:20 AM, Andrey Andreev  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz azj...@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > > to reply to this:
> > >
> > > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the 
> > > > > PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > > > the download link [3].
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > [3] 
> > > > > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> > >
> > > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> > > Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> > > phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> > > and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> > > consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> > > "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> > > I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> > > the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> > > changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> > > to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> > > be the only one unhappy about that.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andrey.
> >
> > The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for 
> > php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample 
> > and a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, 
> > installation and tutorial )
>
> There's a missing link here - who searches for "php" without prior
> knowledge of what it is? Programming languages aren't buzzwords that
> come up in casual conversations between people who don't already use
> them.
>
> And how does it make sense to show a code sample? What for? The only
> time I've seen isolated, meaningless code samples serve a purpose is
> to look cool in movies.
>
> Now that you mentioned a tutorial, that's one thing I agree is useful
> and missing. As a self-learner myself, 15 years ago I would've
> appreciated a vetted selection of tutorials on the official website.
> But why not just put a "Tutorials" link alongside "Documentation"?
>
> > You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page 
> > would look like.
>
> No such thing had been linked until your last reply (which was sent
> after I started writing this), but that's my point exactly - you have
> to look at it first in order to know what's hiding behind it and
> that's counter-productive to me; I reiterate the suggestion to have a
> "Tutorials" link instead.
>
> > if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type 
> > php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for 
> > changelogs and articles.
>
> See, this is where you actually make the site harder to use.
>
> Today, I only type "ph" into my address bar and thanks to Firefox
> hitting enter gets me to php.net, which in turn gives me everything
> that I need:
>
> -   The news are the main content and you want to put that on a separate
> page, calling it "Blog".
> Yes, most modern websites have a "Blog" instead of a "News" section,
> but that's because at some point it became "cool" for everyone to
> blog. There's no use to just naming it that when there's zero blogging
> going on and we have almost exclusively only release announcements.
>
> -   The ChangeLog I get convenienty linked to from each news article
> about a release (again that's all the news). So that's another thing
> you're taking away from the index page, even if by accident.
>
> -   The search bar allows me to check the manual for any function
> signature, built-in class reference, etc.
> Note that I said "search the manual" in my first reply, not browse
> it. I've never needed to visit php.net/documentation, yet that's what
> you suggest I should do.
>
> These things are regressions for me, not improvements.
>
>
> In essence, I share Rowan's sentiment in that I actually quite like
> the current website, but I like it because it is excellent for
> everyday lookups. As long as you can keep it that way, I fully support
> your effort.
> I don't really care about the design, but there's plenty of other
> stuff that could use some love.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrey.
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz azj...@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > > to reply to this:
> > >
> > > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply 

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Andrey Andreev]

Hi,

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz  wrote:
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > to reply to this:
> >
> > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the 
> > > > PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > > the download link [3].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > [3] 
> > > > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> >
> > Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> > phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> > and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> > consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> > "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> >
> > I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> > the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> > changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> > to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> > be the only one unhappy about that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrey.
>
> The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for 
> php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and 
> a straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, 
> installation and tutorial )
>

There's a missing link here - who searches for "php" without prior
knowledge of what it is? Programming languages aren't buzzwords that
come up in casual conversations between people who don't already use
them.

And how does it make sense to show a code sample? What for? The only
time I've seen isolated, meaningless code samples serve a purpose is
to look cool in movies.

Now that you mentioned a tutorial, that's one thing I agree is useful
and missing. As a self-learner myself, 15 years ago I would've
appreciated a vetted selection of tutorials on the official website.
But why not just put a "Tutorials" link alongside "Documentation"?

> You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would 
> look like.
>

No such thing had been linked until your last reply (which was sent
after I started writing this), but that's my point exactly - you have
to look at it first in order to know what's hiding behind it and
that's counter-productive to me; I reiterate the suggestion to have a
"Tutorials" link instead.

> if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type 
> php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for 
> changelogs and articles.

See, this is where you actually make the site harder to use.

Today, I only type "ph" into my address bar and thanks to Firefox
hitting enter gets me to php.net, which in turn gives me everything
that I need:

- The news are the main content and you want to put that on a separate
page, calling it "Blog".
  Yes, most modern websites have a "Blog" instead of a "News" section,
but that's because at some point it became "cool" for everyone to
blog. There's no use to just naming it that when there's zero blogging
going on and we have almost exclusively only release announcements.

- The ChangeLog I get convenienty linked to from each news article
about a release (again that's all the news). So that's another thing
you're taking away from the index page, even if by accident.

- The search bar allows me to check the manual for any function
signature, built-in class reference, etc.
  Note that I said "search the manual" in my first reply, not browse
it. I've never needed to visit php.net/documentation, yet that's what
you suggest I should do.

These things are regressions for me, not improvements.

---

In essence, I share Rowan's sentiment in that I actually quite like
the current website, but I like it because it is excellent for
everyday lookups. As long as you can keep it that way, I fully support
your effort.
I don't really care about the design, but there's plenty of other
stuff that could use some love.

Cheers,
Andrey.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:14 PM azjezz  wrote:
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > to reply to this:
> >
> > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the 
> > > > PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > > the download link [3].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > [3] 
> > > > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> >
> > Yes, it looks neat and 

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

On Monday, February 4, 2019 5:11 PM, Thomas Hruska  
wrote:

> On 2/4/2019 6:32 AM, Andrey Andreev wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> > to reply to this:
> >
> > > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the 
> > > > PHP Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > > the download link [3].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > [3] 
> > > > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > I just hate those useless landing pages.
> > Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> > phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> > and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> > consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> > "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
> > I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> > the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> > changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> > to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> > be the only one unhappy about that.
> > Cheers,
> > Andrey.
>
> I regularly go to thephp.net homepage for the live documentation search
> function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly. My most
> frequent search is the date() function for the % code list. One of
> these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every
> time to save everyone the bandwidth. Of the things I'd miss the most
> would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what
> I'm looking for. Google Search doesn't cut it here.
>
> For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group
> of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be
> valuable. I wouldn't want the homepage to load a video player though.
>
> My biggest complaint is that there's nothing in the mockup that says
> what PHP is for.
>
> Website: "Here's PHP spelled out and a difficult to comprehend code
> example. Uh...Get Started?"
>
> First time visitor: "Okay, that's great. Now tell me what is PHP in
> words I can understand and what can I use it for and is it popular?"
>
> A code example rarely, if ever, makes a good first impression.
>
> -
>
> Thomas Hruska
> CubicleSoft President
>
> I've got great, time saving software that you will find useful.
>
> http://cubiclesoft.com/
>
> And once you find my software useful:
>
> http://cubiclesoft.com/donate/


thanks for your suggestion, i have update the mock up to :

1. include a search input in the navbar
2. move the "Getting Started" button to the navbar
3. include a short description of what PHP is ( the same one that is currently 
on the of php.net )

see : https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

On Monday, February 4, 2019 5:16 PM, Rowan Collins  
wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 15:19, azjezz  wrote:
>
>> I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead rebuild 
>> all PHP websites.
>
> I'm not sure what the difference between "updating the UI" and "rebuilding 
> the websites" is. Do you mean that as well as rewriting every HTML and CSS 
> template, you're going to build a completely new bug tracker, a new DocBook 
> to HTML generator for the manual, and so on? If so, I strongly suggest you 
> rein in your ambitions and tackle one problem at a time.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Rowan Collins
> [IMSoP]

i think i will start by php.net and the documentation. but this would also 
require markdown documentation, as contributing to the PHP docs is not easy at 
all now.
but this it another topic for another time.

for now, i'll just finish doing the mock ups.

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Thomas Nunninger]

Hi Thomas,

I regularly go to the php.net homepage for the live documentation search 
function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly.  My most 
frequent search is the date() function for the % code list.  One of 
these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every 
time to save everyone the bandwidth.  Of the things I'd miss the most 
would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what 
I'm looking for.  Google Search doesn't cut it here.


Try http://php.net/date

As long as you know the exact spelling of the method, that works 
perfectly. If you do not know exact spelling, perhaps you get some 
usable suggestions - more often not...


Regards

Thomas

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 16:11, Thomas Hruska  wrote:

> For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group
> of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be
> valuable.
>

I know some people love them, but I absolutely hate video introductions. I
like to skim read content for the bits that are of use to me, and glance
back and forth to get the idea; videos don't let me do that. If a project
says "watch our 10- minute video to understand what we're all about", I
close the browser tab and go somewhere else. So if anyone goes down this
route, please make videos *supplement* a user-friendly text introduction,
not *replace* it.

Regards,
-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 15:19, azjezz  wrote:

> I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead
> rebuild all PHP websites.
>


I'm not sure what the difference between "updating the UI" and "rebuilding
the websites" is. Do you mean that as well as rewriting every HTML and CSS
template, you're going to build a completely new bug tracker, a new DocBook
to HTML generator for the manual, and so on? If so, I strongly suggest you
rein in your ambitions and tackle one problem at a time.

Regards,
-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Thomas Hruska]

On 2/4/2019 6:32 AM, Andrey Andreev wrote:

Hi,

I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:


* A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, a 
code example maybe and
the download link [3].

[...]

[3] 
https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67


I just hate those useless landing pages.

Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...

I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.

Cheers,
Andrey.


I regularly go to the php.net homepage for the live documentation search 
function just to make sure I'm using functions correctly.  My most 
frequent search is the date() function for the % code list.  One of 
these days I'll print out that docs page instead of looking it up every 
time to save everyone the bandwidth.  Of the things I'd miss the most 
would be the live documentation search feature to jump directly to what 
I'm looking for.  Google Search doesn't cut it here.


For a newbie, I'd say a "Get Started" button that goes to a vetted group 
of starter tutorials (maybe videos?) on a variety of subjects could be 
valuable.  I wouldn't want the homepage to load a video player though.


My biggest complaint is that there's nothing in the mockup that says 
what PHP is for.


Website:  "Here's PHP spelled out and a difficult to comprehend code 
example.  Uh...Get Started?"


First time visitor:  "Okay, that's great.  Now tell me what is PHP in 
words I can understand and what can I use it for and is it popular?"


A code example rarely, if ever, makes a good first impression.

--
Thomas Hruska
CubicleSoft President

I've got great, time saving software that you will find useful.

http://cubiclesoft.com/

And once you find my software useful:

http://cubiclesoft.com/donate/

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:02 AM, Levi Morrison  wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:15 PM azjezz azj...@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hello Internals !
> > As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the 
> > PHP Project.
> > In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may 
> > reflect "badly" on the language
> > reputation nowadays.
> > New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", 
> > report issues or write RFCs.
> > Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
> > Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to 
> > start working on a new website.
> >
> > Global proposal
> >
> > 
> >
> > The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite 
> > would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
> > bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
> > It would be done with this in mind:
> >
> > -   No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
> >
> > -   Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
> >
> > -   This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
> >
> > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP 
> > Logo, a code example maybe and
> >
> >
> > the download link [3].
> >
> > -   A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask 
> > questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
> >
> > -   Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account 
> > to file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the 
> > documentation.
> >
> > -   Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand 
> > new website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
> >
> >
> > specificities (eg, what server does what).
> >
> > FrontEnd Framework
> >
> > ===
> >
> > We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight 
> > options out there.
> > but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with 
> > front-end development and will happily contribute.
> > see :
> >
> > -   https://mustard-ui.com/
> >
> > -   https://getuikit.com/
> >
> > -   https://bulma.io/
> >
> > -   https://picturepan2.github.io/spectre/index.html
> >
> >
> > Next steps
> >
> > ===
> >
> > I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
> > [1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
> > [2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
> > [3] 
> > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> > [4] https://php.net/community
> >
> > Saif Eddin Gmati https://azjezz.github.io
>
> I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
> old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
> one:
>
> https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
>
> In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
> take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
> long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
> use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
> to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
> find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
> cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
> mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
> in a few different codebases.
>
> I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
> were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
> requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
> needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
> While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
> new design, you want to minimize it.

I'm not proposing updating the UI and other websites to use, instead rebuild 
all PHP websites.

for the mock-ups, i have created a GitHub repository : 
https://github.com/azjezz/web-php-mock-ups/

this would take more time than just updating the UI, but the PHP website is 
getting old and most of it is broken or just hard to use.

i would appreciate any help or suggestions for the UI.
as it would be the first step before starting to build the new website.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[azjezz]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, February 4, 2019 2:32 PM, Andrey Andreev  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
> to reply to this:
>
> > > -   A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP 
> > > Logo, a code example maybe and
> > > the download link [3].
> > >
> > >
> > > [...]
> > > [3] 
> > > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
>
> I just hate those useless landing pages.
>
> Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
> phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
> and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
> consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
> "get started" with it, whatever that means ...
>
> I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> be the only one unhappy about that.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrey.

The landing page is meant for the new comers to PHP, when people search for 
php, the home page is the first to appear. it make sense to show a sample and a 
straightforward button to get started with using PHP ( introduction, 
installation and tutorial )

You can see the mock up repository for what the "Getting Started" page would 
look like.

if you usually visit the website for documentation, you would just type 
php.net/documentation in the url bar instead of php.net or php.net/blog for 
changelogs and articles.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Rowan Collins]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 13:33, Andrey Andreev  wrote:

>
> I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
> the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
> changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
> to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
> be the only one unhappy about that.
>

I agree with not needing a splashy home page (that makes me think 1990s,
"click to enter", rather than modern), although I'd point out you already
need to click through for two of the three tasks you name. Maybe there
should actually be a section on the homepage with links to the main manual
sections, as well as the most recent news stories?

In general, though, I quite like the current site design, and would much
rather effort was spent iteratively improving it, rather than throwing it
away and implementing a new set of bugs.

My personal annoyance is the search result page; specifically, that the
"Full website search" link appears in the sidebar like it's an
afterthought, rather than prominently with the search results, or as a
separate results tab or something.

Regards,
-- 
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Andrey Andreev]

Hi,

I could nitpick on most of the proposed plan, but I really only wanted
to reply to this:

> > * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP 
> > Logo, a code example maybe and
> > the download link [3].
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > [3] 
> > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67

I just hate those useless landing pages.

Yes, it looks neat and clean, but after the initial "OMG so pretty"
phase it just becomes annoying - noone cares about the code example
and I for one never know what "Get Started" means. PHP isn't some
consumer desktop software; nobody would just stumble upon php.net and
"get started" with it, whatever that means ...

I'm all for a modern look and all, but let's please keep the news on
the index page. Personally, I only go to php.net to look for the news,
changelogs and to search the docs. This image suggests that I'd need
to do an extra click for each of those things and I'm sure I wouldn't
be the only one unhappy about that.

Cheers,
Andrey.

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Peter Kokot]

Hello,

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 at 02:03, Levi Morrison  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:15 PM azjezz  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Internals !
> >
> > As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the 
> > PHP Project.
> >
> > In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may 
> > reflect "badly" on the language
> >
> > reputation nowadays.
> >
> > New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", 
> > report issues or write RFCs.
> >
> > Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
> >
> > Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to 
> > start working on a new website.
> >
> > # Global proposal
> >
> > The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite 
> > would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
> >
> > bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
> >
> > It would be done with this in mind:
> >
> > * No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
> >
> > * Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
> >
> > * This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
> >
> > * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP 
> > Logo, a code example maybe and
> >
> > the download link [3].
> >
> > * A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask 
> > questions and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
> >
> > * Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to 
> > file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the 
> > documentation.
> >
> > * Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new 
> > website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
> >
> > specificities (eg, what server does what).
> >
> > # FrontEnd Framework
> >
> > We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight 
> > options out there.
> >
> > but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with 
> > front-end development and will happily contribute.
> >
> > see :
> >
> > - https://mustard-ui.com/
> >
> > - https://getuikit.com/
> >
> > - https://bulma.io/
> >
> > - https://picturepan2.github.io/spectre/index.html
> >
> > # Next steps
> >
> > I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
> >
> > [1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
> >
> > [2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
> >
> > [3] 
> > https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
> >
> > [4] https://php.net/community
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Saif Eddin Gmati 
>
> I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
> old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
> one:
>
>   https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png
>
> In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
> take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
> long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
> use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
> to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
> find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
> cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
> mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
> in a few different codebases.
>
> I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
> were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
> requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
> needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
> While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
> new design, you want to minimize it.
>
> --
> PHP Webmaster List Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

Hello, yes, let's do it. I think we must. Thanks for bumping this
topic... Considering that Levi already did such a step once, he knows
a lot what this means and where will be main issues so he can help a
lot here with some advices and all.

>From what I've learned so far with the PHP sites: The websites overall
are very different from one another and some are actually very
complex. The pecl.php.net, bugs.php.net, and the main php.net site are
probably the most complex ones and all written in PHP vanilla way.
After long discussions (regarding the bugs.php.net site), pecl and
bugs sites now include optional Composer for local installation of
some dependencies such as PHPunit, generating fixtures, etc. (not on
production but for local development). So, they are actually going in
the direction of a more modern development. There are also some parts
of php sites that aren't available on GitHub and can't 

Re: [PHP-DEV] New website for the PHP project

[Levi Morrison]

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:15 PM azjezz  wrote:
>
> Hello Internals !
>
> As @official_php suggested [1], I'm here to propose a new website for the PHP 
> Project.
>
> In my opinion, current design looks old, outdated and bland. This sadly may 
> reflect "badly" on the language
>
> reputation nowadays.
>
> New comers find it hard to go around the website, to write "comments", report 
> issues or write RFCs.
>
> Even signing up for the internals mailing list wasn't an easy task [2].
>
> Since the development of PHP 8.0 has started, I think its a good idea to 
> start working on a new website.
>
> # Global proposal
>
> The proposal here is to do a major rewrite of the PHP sites. This rewrite 
> would includes php.net, windows.php.net,
>
> bug.php.net, wiki.php.net, qa.php.net and other official php websites.
>
> It would be done with this in mind:
>
> * No PHP framework (to avoid favoriting one)
>
> * Keep it simple: little to no changes to the database structures
>
> * This site should look modern, simple and feel welcoming.
>
> * A new home page, not a "news" page, but a page simply showing the PHP Logo, 
> a code example maybe and
>
> the download link [3].
>
> * A new community website [4], it can be a place for people to ask questions 
> and discuss php in general - no one uses IRC anymore.
>
> * Single account: Users should be able to use the same community account to 
> file bugs, create a new RFC (depending on karma) and leave notes on the 
> documentation.
>
> * Ideally all *.php.net websites would be "merged" into a single brand new 
> website, but I'm not sure about the hosting
>
> specificities (eg, what server does what).
>
> # FrontEnd Framework
>
> We don't need that too, but we can use one ! there's some light-weight 
> options out there.
>
> but i'm pretty sure some people in the php community have experience with 
> front-end development and will happily contribute.
>
> see :
>
> - https://mustard-ui.com/
>
> - https://getuikit.com/
>
> - https://bulma.io/
>
> - https://picturepan2.github.io/spectre/index.html
>
> # Next steps
>
> I would really like to hear opinions about this proposal.
>
> [1] https://twitter.com/official_php/status/1091903415377108994
>
> [2] https://twitter.com/SaraMG/status/1092185205572542466
>
> [3] 
> https://camo.githubusercontent.com/762e5d9fcaaa4ecf645343350a91929f99f452e9/68747470733a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f584477675261662e706e67
>
> [4] https://php.net/community
>
> ---
>
> Saif Eddin Gmati 

I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you think the current PHP website is
old, out-dated, and bland, you must have not experienced the previous
one:

  https://i2.wp.com/www.geekgumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/phpsite45.png

In any case, I hope you realize this is an ambitious project. It will
take a very long time to build a cohesive UI, and then also a very
long time to update the bugs, windows, docs, wiki, etc, websites to
use it. If you are seriously committed to this, then the next step is
to create mock-ups for every type of page across PHP.net that you can
find, and to share them on the PHP Webmasters mailing list (which I've
cc'd). Then, we'll probably give you a few more pages that needs
mocks, after which you will then have to attempt to build the mock-ups
in a few different codebases.

I did the last redesign, and I took a less rigorous approach. If I
were to do it again, I would be much more rigorous in gathering
requirements and building mock-ups. There were a lot of pages which
needed re-worked because of my design, which took even more time.
While it's okay for some pages to be re-worked content-wise to fit the
new design, you want to minimize it.

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php