[WSG] IE div jumps to the end of the document when using AJAX
I use AJAX to load a bigger image when I click on a thumbnail. I refresh the innerHTML of the above placed layer. All's fine in firefox and safari. But in IE the layer with the list of thumbnails under the refreshed content gets confused and is replaced to the bottom of the document. When the image I load with AJAX is in cache the problem is gone. Does anyone have suggestions how I can prevent IE from replacing the layer to the end of the document. this is the page i'm talking about http://www.frontendplace.nl/bb/? page_id=14 JoJo Thnx ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Default browser stylesheet values
The Yahoo User Interface (Google YUI library) include style sheets for normalising styles over browsers. (So all margins/font sizes etc are consistent) They also offer a wealth of cross-browser JavaScript functions for animation and AJAX calls, well worth checking out. (file size is a bit big though, not much you can do about that though, they pack so much good stuff into them) Samuel www.seasonstravel.com.au | www.geminidevelopment.com.au -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of e-Bility Sandra Vassallo Sent: Tuesday, 1 August 2006 3:45 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Default browser stylesheet values Hi Paul, I usually start with Tantek's 'debug scaffolding' to create a consistent starting point by ruling out the various browser defaults - not sure if this is what you had in mind but I find it a great approach. http://tantek.com/log/2004/09.html#d06t2354 Erik has also written about it in his archives 'Really Undoing html.css' at: http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/15/emreallyem-undoing-htmlcss/ Cheers, Sandra russ - maxdesign wrote: Here is the one recommended by the W3C http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html One clumsy way I have used in the past to test individual browsers it to put two identical html files beside each other - one without any css and the other with css in the head. Then you can zero all margins, padding size etc for specific elements in this second html file and add your own css to try and match the unstyled version. Not ideal but it works :) Russ Hey all, Just wondering if anyone is aware of any web resources that detail the default style values given to various elements by browsers (specifically IE6)? For example, what are the default IE6 CSS values for body, h1-6, p, etc? I've already tried Googling this myself, but didn't come up with anything. Thanks in advance, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Thanks Russ --- Russ Weakley Max Design Phone: (02) 9410 2521 Mobile: 0403 433 980 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/ News: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/feed/ Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/ Sams Teach Yourself CSS in 10 Minutes: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/book/ --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Sandra Vassallo e-Bility Inclusive IT Web Accessibility Usability Solutions t: 02 9810 2216 m: 0414 765 881 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Inclusive IT: www.inclusiveit.com.au e-Bility web: www.e-bility.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] JAWS/ screen reader users
Certainly - drop me an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you can. FRANCES BERRIMAN http://www.fberriman.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gavin Cooney Sent: 01 August 2006 00:23 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] JAWS/ screen reader users Hi Guys, Any screen reader users out there who would be willing to take a few minutes out to help test a Flash app we have built for special needs kids to exams with? If you could please drop me a mail, i will send you a url and a login. Any help would be most appreciated. Regards Gavin PS i'll likely not reply for a few hours... it's midnight in ireland. -- www.gavcooney.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default browser stylesheet values
Paul Hempsall wrote: Just wondering if anyone is aware of any web resources that detail the default style values given to various elements by browsers (specifically IE6)? For example, what are the default IE6 CSS values for body, h1-6, p, etc? Sandra, Samuel: I think you're misinterpreting Paul's question. I understand him to be asking what the defaults are for various browsers when *nothing* is specified by CSS. Not that I have an answer - does anyone know if browsers have a set of inbuilt CSS rules that they refer to in the absence of any overriding stylesheet file? Hmm - OK, answers own question - FF on my Mac, with a little digging (Firefox.app Show Package Contents Contents/MacOS/res/) coughs up a file called html.css - which *appears* to contain the defaults. There's a bunch of others, too: forms.css mathml.css platform-forms.css quirk.css ua.css viewsource.css Caveat: I can code web pages, but I can't build browsers. Edit at your own risk! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default browser stylesheet values
Paul Hempsall wrote: Hey all, Just wondering if anyone is aware of any web resources that detail the default style values given to various elements by browsers (specifically IE6)? You could download and install the IE Web Developer toolbar from Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038displaylang=en Then load an unstyled document containing the elements you want to know the values for, select View DOM from the toolbar and, in the Current style pane, select the Show default style values checkbox. Then, in the document tree view, select the elements in turn to see what the style values are. HTH, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, The client does not have the time or resources for a strictly CSS solution. Ck On Jul 31, 2006, at 9:23 PM, Jude Robinson wrote: CK wrote: Greetings: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Greetings CK - is there a specific IE 5.2 bug/problem that you know you will be unable to work around? Or will the client not pay you for the extra time it would take to get the CSS working for IE 5.2? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
On 8/1/06 6:16 AM, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, The client does not have the time or resources for a strictly CSS solution. Ck This statement seems really odd to me, since I noticed that once I started doing things strictly in CSS, my production time on the average website (especially the troubleshooting part) was effectively cut in half. With the web of yore solutions, so much time was spent trying to find workarounds and hacks and pulling my teeth out with a rusty hammer because my layouts were breaking all over the place and I couldn't figure out why (pardon the exaggeration) that it made me completely hate web design, and I didn't embrace it as a potential career path until I discovered Standards about a year and a half ago. Could you speak to what time is lost using standards? Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Hi, I agree production time is lessened using standards. However, the time being lost is mine. Given the budget and the misconceptions of the client, I've not the time to educate and dispel CSS rumors and myths. Had the project been larger, with an allowance for education, it is assured that the decision could be swayed. In agreement with your other point I had decided to return to Food Service, before reading Designing With Web Standards. Having found the constant bullying of information with tables and quirky JS less desirable than burns and cuts. CK On Aug 1, 2006, at 6:45 AM, Dani Nordin | 401.787.5178 wrote: that it made me completely hate web design, and I didn't embrace it as a potential career path until I discovered Standards about a year and a half ago. Could you speak to what time is lost using standards? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
Greetings! Here's a puzzler. A bug? A feature? Animal? Vegetable?
(Nevermind.) It has been filed with Opera as well as posted to css-d,
but I thought it might be good to post here as well.
Minimal Test Case: http://test.joesapt.net/opera
Includes links to BrowserCam shots and a few more variations for good measure.
Markup:
pa href=#1/a a href=#2/a ... a href=#8/a/p
Style:
p { display: table; }
p a { float: left; min-width: 16px; }
(Presume the float is cleared afterward.)
Expected: One row of eight links.
Actual (in Opera 8/9): Two rows of four links. font-size changes
appear to have an effect on the expected results as well.
Perhaps there's an easy fix for this (or I'm missing something
obvious)? Clues, q's and discussion most welcome!
--
Joe D'Andrea
www.joesapt.net
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[WSG] Browser stats
Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can bea bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
[WSG] Problem with hover menu in IE7
I'm working on improving a real mess of a page (rediculous amounts of scripting and css and ugly markup), i've been trying to get it working in IE7 and i've encountered problems with my popup menus. In IE6 they are activated using javascript which works fine, for IE7 things are a bit odd, if I leave the suckerfish menu javascript code in, the menus appear, if I delete the code the menus don't appear. If I disable javascript using the dev toolbar the menus appear... I can only assume this is due to the massive mess of javascript or a browser bug. But *this* isn't the problem that i'm too worried about. The problem is that regardless of how I get the menus to display in IE7, if I click anywhere on the page prior to activating the hover, the menu doesn't disappear again when I move the mouse away. The menus also don't work in Opera, but i've read about a bug with how Opera handles absolute positioning inside relative positioning. I'm hesitant to give a link to the page publically, but if anyone thinks they can help out i'll email a link. Thanks - Andrew Ingram ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS based menu popping behind Flash movie only in Safari problem
On 7/31/06 6:00 PM, Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the example used from that article: WMODE(s): http://snipurl.com/u6hx I noticed that they have no hover actions happening. Do hover actions cause issues with opaque as well (in Safari)? -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
A good question which bring out the random sampling hypothesis testing maniac in me. They site statistics could be a bit biased if you get lots of hits from jaws users or something in particular that has resources for one operating system or browser like a Mac operating resources site stats. Statistically though, to sample the whole world with some accuracy you only need a moderate size sample if the sample represents the wider population. I would not trust the stats even of a single search engine to be unbiased and without commercial interests in selling clicks. Could we trust any one vendor or researcher to report unbiased results from one or a few sites? You need to sample generalist site, with wide appeal, indexed in all search engines wide appeal Widgets like History Science Religion Medicine Psychology, pictures, law and order etc etc. I only get a couple of thousand hits a month (I have banned almost all bots who did not follow robots.txt on my site, but most bad bots might be User Agent X who I have excluded. I must check that. My site seems biased towards Mac hits, a publishing orientation maybe? I'm sure many others would show different stats. There must be a sample possible of members stats, perhaps 40 (the more sites sampled the better) over different months of the year, then we could be sure of browser stats. Which group might be best placed to conduct such research:-) Don't look at me, but I could design the basics of such a study. If you pick generalist sites with wide appeal, you have millions of hits to base your conclusion on that your sample is a true reflection of world-wide browser stats. Tim http://www.hereticpress.com On 01/08/2006, at 10:00 PM, Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can be a bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
On 8/1/06, Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the advantage of trying to get a paragraph to display like a table? Forgot to mention - even if I do use a list, my desired style ultimately requires a centered set of links, each one with a minimum width and padding sufficient to show a background image (no-repeat). That may be a no-brainer with a list of links vs. a paragraph of whitespace-separated links, if listamatic and other examples are any indication. :) -- Joe D'Andrea www.joesapt.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
On Aug 1, 2006, at 8:40 PM, Joe D'Andrea wrote:
Minimal Test Case: http://test.joesapt.net/opera
Includes links to BrowserCam shots and a few more variations for
good measure.
Markup:
pa href=#1/a a href=#2/a ... a href=#8/a/p
Style:
p { display: table; }
p a { float: left; min-width: 16px; }
Whatever the rationale for using a p, what is the idea behind using
{display:table} ??
... because I'm not sure this is strictly a bug. An element with
display:table shrink-wraps the width, just as a real table would do.
And Opera is known to be more aggressive in this than some other
browsers.
Add to that, your 'table' element only contains *width-less* floated
elements. That may complicate the computation of width.
And on the side, you won't need to clear those floated elements as
{display:table} establishes a new block formatting context and
contains the floated blocks any way.
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com
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RE: [WSG] Browser stats
That argument may seem reasonable but it is flawed. If users with particular user agents can't use your site or find it difficult to use then they are less likely to return. Your stats will then show a low number for these users. You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to botherfixing the site to caterfor these users but in factthe exact opposite is true. Steve From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seb FrostSent: 01 August 2006 14:20To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Browser stats The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users. - seb On 01/08/06, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can bea bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
Seb, on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 at 15:19 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Even your own stats may not be accurate. You might make some awful design mistakes that makes your site completely unaccessible for users of special browsers. Chances are that they'd never come back and that your usage stats simply say that there are nearly no users of these browsers... It might be useful to compare your own stats with others and take a closer look at differences. But don't forget that differences will probably be normal. A design-blog will probably attract much more mac users and a site about linux-programming will get more hits by Konqueror users than a single-portal. (Ok, I'm not really sure about the last assumption... ;-) regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] forms in floated divs problem
Hi ya, Got a problem with forms in a floated DIV under IE. (see attachment) What i'm trying todo is to create a floated DIV and in the DIV I create a FORM. The problem is that Firefox and Safari display a nice window with a (in this example) a upload form, but under IE, it uses the whole width of the browser. How can I fix this? Besides setting each DIV with a fixed width. Hope that anybody can help me here... With kind regards, Robin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **Title: IE float form problem upload image image upload **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] forms in floated divs problem
Hello Robin,
Hi ya,
Got a problem with forms in a floated DIV under IE. (see attachment)
What i'm trying todo is to create a floated DIV and in the DIV I create a
FORM. The problem is that Firefox and Safari display a nice window with a
(in this example) a upload form, but under IE, it uses
the whole width of the browser.
How can I fix this? Besides setting each DIV with a fixed width.
Hope that anybody can help me here...
Kill fieldset. Why do you need it, any way ?
Or write styles for it:
fieldset class=ff_s.../fieldset
.ff_s{
display:inline;
}
or
.ff_s{
float:left;
}
Both will work. But last is more proper, as for me.
But, if you'll use it, don’t forget to create clear block in the end.
.cleaner{
clear:both;
height:0px;
line-height:0px;
}
fieldset class=ff_s...div class=”cleaner”/div/fieldset
PS. Sorry for my english.
--
Ravenmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Lies, damn lies and Browser stats
You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to bother fixing the site to cater for these users but in fact the exact opposite is true. That is very true - check out the cautionary note on http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp Web developers be aware: Many users still have only 800x600 display screens. Yes, you have to take stats with a pinch of salt - their readership could be slewed by lots of factors - techie sites have a lot of expert users with fast machines, fast connections and big monitors, plus (let's face it) more developers use Firefox than the rest of the population added together. My vote is to make it work at 780, and make sure it still looks ok at 1024 or above. I always think that shorter text lines are easier to read. Ken ps. You should also test all video streaming across a 56k modem connection Steve Green wrote: That argument may seem reasonable but it is flawed. If users with particular user agents can't use your site or find it difficult to use then they are less likely to return. Your stats will then show a low number for these users. You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to bother fixing the site to cater for these users but in fact the exact opposite is true. Steve *From:* listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Seb Frost *Sent:* 01 August 2006 14:20 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Browser stats The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users. - seb On 01/08/06, *Paul Collins* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can be a bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
www.statcounter.com it's free! - Original Message - From: Paul Collins To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:00 AM Subject: [WSG] Browser stats Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can bea bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.0.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
Hi,
Thanks for saving me a few key strokes :)
On Aug 1, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:
A bug? A feature?
...
Markup:
pa href=#1/a a href=#2/a ... a href=#8/a/p
Style:
p { display: table; }
p a { float: left; min-width: 16px; }
(Presume the float is cleared afterward.)
Expected: One row of eight links.
...
...discussion most welcome!
--
Joe D'Andrea
www.joesapt.net
Um - gotta ask this, because someone's bound to: it's a list of
links. Why not mark it up as a list? What's the advantage of trying
to get a paragraph to display like a table? (That's the discussion
bit...)
N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Browser stats
Statcounter is ok, i have used it for 3 years and im satisfied accept keyword analysis dont read UTF-8 text. I have also tried google analytics that i think is amazing. i really will let you try it... Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: www.statcounter.com it's free! - Original Message - *From:* Paul Collins mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:00 AM *Subject:* [WSG] Browser stats Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can be a bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
On 8/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of more interest to me is why you are trying to float an inline element ( a )? Another good Q! Seems redundant, yes? Let's back up a sec. What I'd really like to do (besides direct) is style a list of linked numbers such that: * The overall list is centered * Each link has a minimum width of 16px * Each link is centered on itself The minimum width is intended to accomodate a 16px-wide, non-repeated background image (factored out of the minimal test case). The centering is used to (initially) center the link/number relative to the image. The float is used so that width (or min-width) can be applied. Perhaps there's a better way though. How about inline-block? Still have to account for IE though. :\ OK. Here's another example, starting from scratch and using an unordered list vs. a paragraph. Only Opera 8.5/9 wraparound at the halfway point: http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul ! -- Joe D'Andrea www.joesapt.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
On 8/1/06, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... If you put your series of links in a (one) real table-cell, and use the same styling (float), odds are that you'd see similar behaviour/ differences between browsers. ... [excellent explanation trimmed] Thanks! That helps my understanding tremendously. Unrelated to your test case, as IE doesn't do display:table anyway. ... You'll probably need a 'haslayout' trigger for IE ... Bingo and bingo. PS - If you know the number of links, and their minimum-width, you could give your p a minimum width as well. I tried this in one of my early tests, but it didn't seem to work. However, _width_ worked! I wasn't thrilled with the idea of forcing a fixed width though, so I pushed it aside. If I revisit min-width again, this time using my newest test[1], I get better, albeit interesting results[2]. In Opera, the list now fits on one row, however it remains centered relative to the first four items. Still not centered relative to the entire list, but an improvement regardless. Almost there. -- Joe D'Andrea www.joesapt.net [1] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul [2] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul-min ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
Fair point, but I'd never release a site that I hadn't tested and made sure worked adequately in IE5+, firefox, opera, safari etc etc anyway. For me the only really interesting browser stat these days is resolution, and even that isn't a huge concern because 90% of the time I just know that I have to make a site that'll be adequate in 800x600. And sure, some sites might require that you get lynx or netscape 4 support spot on, but again, you're more than likely going to know that before you go live, and will test for it. On 01/08/06, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That argument may seem reasonable but it is flawed. If users with particular user agents can't use your site or find it difficult to use then they are less likely to return. Your stats will then show a low number for these users. You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to botherfixing the site to caterfor these users but in factthe exact opposite is true. Steve From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Seb FrostSent: 01 August 2006 14:20To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Browser stats The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users. - seb On 01/08/06, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can bea bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
Thanks for your replies. What you say makes good sense Seb, but it would be nice to know how many people are using certain browsers so when clients ask me what to build for I can justify building for IE5 Mac. I don't know whether to throw in a towel yet or not with it. Yespeople can tell me no-one uses it, it doesn't get supported etc; but I would like to see actual statistics rather than opinions. Cheers Paul - Original Message - From: Seb Frost To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser stats Fair point, but I'd never release a site that I hadn't tested and made sure worked adequately in IE5+, firefox, opera, safari etc etc anyway. For me the only really interesting browser stat these days is resolution, and even that isn't a huge concern because 90% of the time I just know that I have to make a site that'll be adequate in 800x600. And sure, some sites might require that you get lynx or netscape 4 support spot on, but again, you're more than likely going to know that before you go live, and will test for it. On 01/08/06, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That argument may seem reasonable but it is flawed. If users with particular user agents can't use your site or find it difficult to use then they are less likely to return. Your stats will then show a low number for these users. You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to botherfixing the site to caterfor these users but in factthe exact opposite is true. Steve From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Seb FrostSent: 01 August 2006 14:20To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Browser stats The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users. - seb On 01/08/06, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can bea bit biased. Currently I've got http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php Anyone got better?! Cheers**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
[WSG] Resetting properties after *
I set up my css like this:
*{
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
It all works well until my all my lists loose their margin
and padding power (which is the expected behavior) Does anyone knows how to
re-set the margin and padding for certain sections of the site only? I know I
can go manually and set certain areas as needed, but how about lay
.sectiona ul li {
/*work as normal */
}
Type of deal?
TIA.
**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Ive found ol {margin-left:25px}
usually gets you in the ball park.
FYI, the Yahoo User Interface library has
a set of CSS files that you can use for global reset and to establish a
baseline font size setting. Theyve been tested to make sure they
accommodate the Grade A browsers to save you time.
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/fonts/
Ted
Yahoo! Tech
I
set up my css like this:
*{
margin:
0px;
padding:
0px;
}
It
all works well until my all my lists loose their margin and padding power
(which is the expected behavior) Does anyone knows how to re-set the margin and
padding for certain sections of the site only? I know I can go manually and set
certain areas as needed, but how about lay
.sectiona
ul li {
/*work
as normal */
}
Type
of deal?
TIA.
**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Thanks Drake, this is really useful
information. I was familiar with the site but I didnt know you had that extra
information in there.
Good to know.
helmut
From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Ive found ol {margin-left:25px} usually gets you in the ball park.
FYI, the Yahoo User Interface library has a set of CSS files that
you can use for global reset and to establish a baseline font size setting.
Theyve been tested to make sure they accommodate the Grade A browsers to save
you time.
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/fonts/
Ted
Yahoo! Tech
I set up my css like this:
*{
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
It all works well until my all my lists loose their margin
and padding power (which is the expected behavior) Does anyone knows how to
re-set the margin and padding for certain sections of the site only? I know I
can go manually and set certain areas as needed, but how about lay
.sectiona ul li {
/*work as normal */
}
Type of deal?
TIA.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Helmut,
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, 7:51:18 PM, you wrote:
HG I set up my css like this:
HG
HG *{
HG margin: 0px;
HG padding: 0px;
HG }
Maybe you should try this approach:
http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/07/26/starting-css-revisited
Ciao,
Martin
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] AJAX-The Buzz Word
Hi, I've been asked the AJAX buzzword several times, the frenzy has reached my doorstep. Would someone pass along some Standards steeped AJAX tutorials? CK ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: Re: Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
Another update. Philippe, et. al., we may have a winner[3] crossing fingers. I linked to everything else[1][2] to show the progression. To recap, I'm using a list of links vs. a paragraph of links, which is semantically healthier but, when devoid of style, seems too thin and awkward. (It's OK - I'll probably get over it! I still welcome point and counterpoint on that topic though.) Anyhoo, I had to use a fixed width on the cells in the third iteration, but perhaps that will be acceptable for what I'm going to do. I'll acid test s'more, using all the bg images, font styles and so on. Again, I really appreciate the reality-checks and discussion from everyone! -- Joe D'Andrea www.joesapt.net [1] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul [2] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul-min [3] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul-table ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] AJAX-The Buzz Word
On 8/1/06, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been asked the AJAX buzzword several times, the frenzy has reached my doorstep. Would someone pass along some Standards steeped AJAX tutorials? There are no 'standards' AJAX tutorials as the XMLHttpRequest object is not part of any current standard (although that will change soonish). The best approach though is to use Jeremy Keith's Hijax methodology: http://domscripting.com/blog/display/41 But that doesn't really answer your question. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
On 8/1/06, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the following from the w3 specification, if not where is it from? You got it! Direct from the w3 spec. [1] This display: table solution for the outlined problem has me a little muddled. Agreed, it's taking some getting used on my part, but I think I'm warming up to it. The more I read the Anonymous Boxes section, the more it sinks in. Philippe wasn't kidding, this table business is a tricky trick! The latest iteration might be the winner though [2]. We'll see. -- Joe D'Andrea www.joesapt.net [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#anonymous-boxes [2] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul-table ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera Bug? (Table-displayed, left-floated, min-width content)
Joe D'Andrea wrote: The latest iteration might be the winner though [2]. We'll see. [2] http://test.joesapt.net/cf/opera-ul-table Just to state the (more or less) obvious: 'width' = 'min-width' and 'height' = 'min-height' when we're dealing with CSS table elements that take dimensions. Same as for HTML table. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] AJAX-The Buzz Word
CK wrote: Would someone pass along some Standards steeped AJAX tutorials? Try this for leads: http://ajaxian.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problem with hover menu in IE7
When I encounter so weird errors I try coding it all again. I have some old sites which are impossible to edit or know when and why works, so I just start all over again. Not a clean - efficient solution but it works. Regards; Eugenio. On 8/1/06, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on improving a real mess of a page (rediculous amounts of scripting and css and ugly markup), i've been trying to get it working in IE7 and i've encountered problems with my popup menus. In IE6 they are activated using javascript which works fine, for IE7 things are a bit odd, if I leave the suckerfish menu javascript code in, the menus appear, if I delete the code the menus don't appear. If I disable javascript using the dev toolbar the menus appear... I can only assume this is due to the massive mess of javascript or a browser bug. But *this* isn't the problem that i'm too worried about. The problem is that regardless of how I get the menus to display in IE7, if I click anywhere on the page prior to activating the hover, the menu doesn't disappear again when I move the mouse away. The menus also don't work in Opera, but i've read about a bug with how Opera handles absolute positioning inside relative positioning. I'm hesitant to give a link to the page publically, but if anyone thinks they can help out i'll email a link. Thanks - Andrew Ingram ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
I have to agree. I have two sites: one of an international company in Argentina, and the other one of an expensive bar. 100% of the second one uses Windows with fast connections and (almost all) 1024x768. Just a group of people who goes frecuently. The first one has so many visits from different systems that I could hardly do a good job if I don´t rely on standards... I don´t care how many users are changing to firefox in the second one, but in the first one, I care about Lynx, Safari, Opera, old and new IEs... Just another opinion! Regards; Eugenio. On 8/1/06, Seb Frost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're not getting the information you need! Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users. - seb ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
A too simple way of thinking, and an opinion, not stats. Got it... :) On 8/1/06, TuteC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree. I have two sites: one of an international company in Argentina, and the other one of an expensive bar. 100% of the second one uses Windows with fast connections and (almost all) 1024x768. Just a group of people who goes frecuently. The first one has so many visits from different systems that I could hardly do a good job if I don´t rely on standards... I don´t care how many users are changing to firefox in the second one, but in the first one, I care about Lynx, Safari, Opera, old and new IEs... Just another opinion! Regards; Eugenio. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Helmut Granda
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:05 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Thanks Drake, this is really
useful information. I was familiar with the site but I didnt know you had that
extra information in there.
Good to know.
helmut
From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Resetting properties after *
Ive found ol {margin-left:25px} usually gets you in the ball park.
FYI, the Yahoo User Interface library has a set of CSS files that
you can use for global reset and to establish a baseline font size setting.
Theyve been tested to make sure they accommodate the Grade A browsers to save
you time.
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/fonts/
Ted
Yahoo! Tech
I set up my css like this:
*{
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
It all works well until my all my lists loose their margin
and padding power (which is the expected behavior) Does anyone knows how to
re-set the margin and padding for certain sections of the site only? I know I
can go manually and set certain areas as needed, but how about lay
.sectiona ul li {
/*work as normal */
}
Type of deal?
TIA.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
[WSG] Div names
Hello all! I have a rather simple question: does it have any semantical meaning the name of a div? For example, if I have a div class=Distributorsh3Distributors/h3/div, will the search engine understand the name of the div or di I need that h3 to do that? I know it has little sense and certainly I use also the h3, but it was just a question I had. Also, as h3 means Heading 3, what thas div mean? Best regards and thanks in advance; Eugenio. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Paul Collins wrote: so when clients ask me what to build for I can justify building for IE5 Mac. Given that IE5/Mac is now officially obsolete, why not group it with other dinosaurs (NN4.x et al) with flaky CSS support and filter your CSS delivery so that browser only receives a stylesheet for nice typographic presentation, but not the full layout? This is what I've started doing... Generate the CSS for typography, bg colour/s, etc (e.g. basic.css) and a separate file for (e.g.) layout.css. Use the Tantek hack in the call for the second file in the head of your (X)HTML file, thus: link rel='stylesheet' type='text/css' media='all' href='inc/basic.css' / style type='text/css' media='screen'/*\*/@import inc/layout.css;/**//style and voila, IE5/Mac only recognises the first file. It saves hours of trial and error trying to get layouts to work in IE5M as they do in compliant browsers, and keeps your layout.css file clear of multiple instances of the Tantek hack. And as a bonus, because of the media attributes, your print styles are taken care of as well... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Div names
TuteC wrote: Hello all! I have a rather simple question: does it have any semantical meaning the name of a div? For example, if I have a div class=Distributorsh3Distributors/h3/div, will the search engine understand the name of the div or di I need that h3 to do that? How about h3 title='Distributors'Distributors/h3? You really don't need the enclosing div. I'm not sure whether the title will help SE effectiveness, but IMHO title is semantically stronger than class... I think the main semantic weight comes more from the h3 itself than from any CSS attributes it might have declared, though (although I'm happy to be corrected). I know it has little sense and certainly I use also the h3, but it was just a question I had. Also, as h3 means Heading 3, what thas div mean? Division. From Wikipedia: DIV, an HTML tag which implements a generic block level object. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIV_%28HTML_tag%29 HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Div names
At 04:00 PM 8/1/2006, TuteC wrote: Hello all! I have a rather simple question: does it have any semantical meaning the name of a div? For example, if I have a div class=Distributorsh3Distributors/h3/div, will the search engine understand the name of the div or di I need that h3 to do that? I know it has little sense and certainly I use also the h3, but it was just a question I had. Also, as h3 means Heading 3, what thas div mean? Best regards and thanks in advance; Eugenio. Eugenio, To my knowledge, no search engine attempts to parse the linguistic content of class names or Ids. div is an abbreviation for division. It means an arbitrary grouping of other elements, without any semantic significance beyond that. The HTML 4.1 spec says: The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents. These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV) but impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors may use these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang attribute, etc., to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes. W3C HTML 4.01 Specification 7 The global structure of an HTML document 7.5.4 Grouping elements: the DIV and SPAN elements http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4 I strongly recommend that you read this entire document -- you need to know your ingredients before you can work wonders in the kitchen. There are translations available here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html4-updates/translations Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Div names
Well, thanks a lot! The first code was an example to show the, now answered, question. Yes, I need to read those manuals at first so as to organize my ideas. Thanks again; Eugenio. On 8/1/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (...) W3C HTML 4.01 Specification 7 The global structure of an HTML document 7.5.4 Grouping elements: the DIV and SPAN elements http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4 I strongly recommend that you read this entire document -- you need to know your ingredients before you can work wonders in the kitchen. There are translations available here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html4-updates/translations Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Div names
TuteC wrote: I have a rather simple question: does it have any semantical meaning the name of a div? For example, if I have a div class=Distributorsh3Distributors/h3/div, will the search engine understand the name of the div or di I need that h3 to do that? I asked a similar question on Sitepoint.com a while back: Does markup have any weight to SEO/SEM? http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336670 Also, this is from page 5 of CSS Mastery: Advanced Web Standards Solutions (kinda related to your question): When naming your IDs and classes, it is important that you keep the names as meaningful and un-presentational as possible. For insatnce, you could give you section navigation an ID of rightHandNav as that is where you want it to appear. However, if you later choose to position it on the left, your CSS and (X)HTML will go out of sync. Instead, it would make more sense to name the element subNav or secondaryNav. These names explain what the element is rather than how it is presented. The same is true of class names. Say you want all your error messages to be red. Rather than using the class name red, choose something more meaningful like error or feedback. Hth? Cheers, Micky ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [OT] email signatures
Sorry for this OT, but I know you guys are quite knowledge on these things, and I have been battling with this issues for a while, so are other people from Pacific Fox. This is my last resort! We all have email signatures with our logo in it, we are using Outlook 2003 and some are using 2000. I've tried to get the HTML for the signature valid, but I am under the impression it doesn't matter whether it is valid or not. Anyways, the main issue we are having is the fact the logo in the signature plays up, I have tried everything, in some outgoing emails it shows up, and in some it doesn't. I've even seen the logo disappear from the new email itself while typing. In some emails it goes out as an attachment, even though I don't do anything different than on other occasions. I really don't want to give up on the logo as I believe it has an impact, but I am on the verge of giving up. Desperately hoping someone on this list might have a clue what is going on. Kind regards,Taco Fleur free call 1800 032 982 or mobile 0421 851 786 fax 07 3414 6464, international +61 7 3325 5103www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial experience since 1994 our services: online, print, marketing information technology website, branding, logo, business cards, letterheads accept online credit card payments www.commerceengine.com.au domain registrations, .com for as low as fifteen dollars a year, .com.au for fifty dollars two years! **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Div names
Understood, really useful. Thanks a lot! Eugenio. On 8/1/06, Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (...) When naming your IDs and classes, it is important that you keep the names as meaningful and un-presentational as possible. For insatnce, you could give you section navigation an ID of rightHandNav as that is where you want it to appear. However, if you later choose to position it on the left, your CSS and (X)HTML will go out of sync. Instead, it would make more sense to name the element subNav or secondaryNav. These names explain what the element is rather than how it is presented. The same is true of class names. Say you want all your error messages to be red. Rather than using the class name red, choose something more meaningful like error or feedback. Hth? Cheers, Micky ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: spam: [WSG] [OT] email signatures ANSWER OFFLIST PLEASE
This is not the place for this discussion. Please answer Taco off list P From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Taco FleurSent: Wednesday, 2 August 2006 10:25To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: spam: [WSG] [OT] email signatures Sorry for this OT, but I know you guys are quite knowledge on these things, and I have been battling with this issues for a while, so are other people from Pacific Fox. This is my last resort! We all have email signatures with our logo in it, we are using Outlook 2003 and some are using 2000. I've tried to get the HTML for the signature valid, but I am under the impression it doesn't matter whether it is valid or not. Anyways, the main issue we are having is the fact the logo in the signature plays up, I have tried everything, in some outgoing emails it shows up, and in some it doesn't. I've even seen the logo disappear from the new email itself while typing. In some emails it goes out as an attachment, even though I don't do anything different than on other occasions. I really don't want to give up on the logo as I believe it has an impact, but I am on the verge of giving up. Desperately hoping someone on this list might have a clue what is going on. Kind regards,Taco Fleur free call 1800 032 982 or mobile 0421 851 786 fax 07 3414 6464, international +61 7 3325 5103www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial experience since 1994 our services: online, print, marketing information technology website, branding, logo, business cards, letterheads accept online credit card payments www.commerceengine.com.au domain registrations, .com for as low as fifteen dollars a year, .com.au for fifty dollars two years!**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
[WSG] Hiding form buttons that are not required when javascript is on
Hi all I've built a form that when a user selects a value from a select element a javascript event is triggered and a secondary select is populated. To accommodate users without javascript there is a submit button adjacent to the first select that allows for the form to be submitted and the secondary select to be populated via server scripts. The form looks something like this: __ __ Label 1 |select 1 |v| | submit 1 | -- -- __ _ Label 2 |select 2 |v| | submit form | -- - This form was usability tested and it was recommended that the submit 1 button (for users without javascript) should be removed/hidden. Easy enough to do with javascript. Curious to know the thoughts of the group on this one. Cheers Bruce -- Bruce Morrison Solution Architect designIT Pty Ltd Website Content Management Specialists ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] [OT] email signatures
Oooh, my apologies for the OT which has caused a stir. Please forget I ever asked. What was I thinking. Kind regards,Taco Fleur free call 1800 032 982 or mobile 0421 851 786 fax 07 3414 6464, international +61 7 3325 5103www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial experience since 1994 our services: online, print, marketing information technology website, branding, logo, business cards, letterheads accept online credit card payments www.commerceengine.com.au domain registrations, .com for as low as fifteen dollars a year, .com.au for fifty dollars two years! -Original Message-From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Nick GleitzmanSent: Wednesday, 2 August 2006 10:45 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] [OT] email signaturesTaco Fleur wrote: We all have email signatures with our logo in it, we are using Outlook 2003 and some are using 2000. I've tried to get the HTML for the signature valid...You've only got to View Source on your own message to see the cr*p that MS generates:IMG=20style=3D"MARGIN: 1em 0px; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:none;= BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none"=20height=3D26 alt=3D"Pacific Fox#8482; #8212; web strategists"src="">[EMAIL PROTECTED]"=20width=3D148Can't see that validating, somehow...And look at the src for the image: "cid:828171900@02082006-09F8". Does that make any sense to you?Suggestions:(1) Code your sig (if you can) so it calls the image file from a web server(2) Ask Microsoft - it's their software(3) Re-read the Guidelines for this list ;)N___Omnivision. Websight.http://www.omnivision.com.au/**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Browser stats
Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors to the site which can be a bit biased. Heh, it's an evergreen question... my pre-written thoughts are at http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2005/06/lies-damn-lies-and-browser-statistics.html In short: your own server's stats will be the most relevant sample; but you can look at global stats (eg. http://www.thecounter.com/stats/) with a grain of salt and get general impression of trends. eg. while nobody knows exactly how much, we can say with some certaintly that Firefox and Opera have gained marketshare in the past year. Percentages? Nah, I wouldn't put percentages on it :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Nick Gleitzman wrote: Umm... OSX/Classic? Ah, you want details. Well, the web folks do use OSX/Classic... we are the select few that get that luxury. As for the rest of the newsroom folks, they are on older 7100's/Beige G3's and such... Upgrading to OSX just to run classic mode means a whole lot of cash. The best most employees can expect is a hand-me-down G3 blue-and-white or G4. Actually, now that you bring it up, I am realizing that there is too much to explain... Hehe, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. :) Cheers, Micky ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Steve Green wrote: I would hardly call OSX an 'upgrade' - it's a major investment. It's not just the £100 or so for the OS, it's the cost of all the new applications like an office suite and all the other stuff you need plus the installation time and hassle of migrating email accounts etc. I know only too well... My tongue *was* firmly in cheek in calling this an upgrade... I don't have current figure for OS9 usage but in June 2004 (i.e. 3 years after OS X launched) Steve Jobs announced that 50% of the 24 million Mac users were now using OS X. That means 50% were still on OS9 or earlier. ...and that's 2 years ago now - a long time in computing! In the developed world we're used to having pretty up to date kit but don't forget that a large proportion of the world's population can't afford this and still use much older kit, often machines that have been discarded here precisely because the software cannot be upgraded. OK, sure - which brings me back to my suggestion of delivering a no-frills version of sites to people with no-frills gear. For the sake of nine characters, you can make sure your sites are accessible (=usable in this context) by the max number of visitors. Not as pretty, maybe, but what's more important - the layout or the content? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
