Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?
Rolf SF wrote: I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to include a span within a caption in a table. A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning: Element 'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption' According to the HTML 4.01 DTD, caption can contain inline elements. As span is an inline element, you should therefore be fine. !ELEMENT CAPTION - - (%inline;)* -- table caption -- If you're unsure about this sort of thing, run your output through the W3C validator... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliant PHP Output
Quoting CK [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
The following example of using simpleXML to output XML data is strong.
However, would some standards savvy PHP maven guide in outputting the
list in the proper format:
Just having a cursory glance, I'd say that what you want in that
central loop is actually a table, not a list ... it's tabular data.
foreach ($xml-foodGroup as $foodGroup){
echo h2Food group name is . $foodGroup-groupName . /h2;
echo table
thead
trth scope=colItem/thth scope=colQuantity/th/tr
/thead
tbody;
foreach ($foodGroup-item as $foodItem){
echo trth scope=row . $foodItem-name . /th;
echo td . $foodItem-howMuch . /td/tr;
}
echo /tbody;
}
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] No. abbreviation glyph
Ben Buchanan wrote: Reducing a whole concept to a symbol? Wild ;) In more general terms, that's exactly what language does... eg. How do you get a screen reader to vocalise what the author intended with a visual communication? The only available method that I can think of is to wrap an ABBR around the item in question and specify what you mean. That's because HTML has such a limited vocabulary of available elements. The more correct (although admittedly not ready for widespread use in the here and now) way would be to use additional vocabularies (in the case of use of greek letters in mathematical formulae, MathML or similar for instance) and/or to tie lookup tables for glyph/vocalisation intended for a particular document in metadata or something like a linked RDF. Debating which of the severely lacking HTML elements would be most pervertable in order to achieve something that wasn't taken into account in HTML's design is certainly interesting, but futile (IMHO, of course). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] No. abbreviation glyph
Ricky Onsman wrote: So how do we tell screen readers (and browsers) which is the right function, depending on the context? As long as the language we use to mark up content does not natively cater for this infusion of meaning, we can either hack around the shortcomings of HTML by perverting some of its constructs (overloading the use of ABBR - on a tangent, this is the same thing that's happening with some microformat usage, such as that suggested by Tantek for marking up dates...a very inelegant, and definitely not screen reader friendly, usage) or rely on heuristics in user agents to make educated guesses as to what the intended meaning is. Or, as is already the case for sighted users, we leave it up to the reader/user to filter what's presented by the user agent at face value and draw their own conclusions based on their interpretation of the context (which, in most cases, would be far more accurate than any guesses by a machine). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility
Jermayn Parker wrote: OK so how do we help the lecturers??? It's possibly at this point that it's worth mentioning the WaSP Education Task Force (EduTF) http://webstandards.org/action/edutf P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling a Code Listing
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Hi all, I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how_to_style_a_code_listing.asp If whitespace needs to be preserved even when CSS is off (can't remember...is it python or something that actually depends on having the right number of spaces for indentation?), then possibly a pre could be wrapped around the code elements as well. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
Quoting Rob Kirton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Andrew I believe that Kat is correct in her approach, though would suggest that the class is applied to an em tag set, therefore will still be shown as being employed even if CSS is disabled for whatever reason. N...if it's not an emphasis, don't mark it up as emphasis. End of the day: if you're really after showing a visual style even if CSS is unavailable or disabled, heck, stick with presentational markup and use i then, and don't abuse em where it's not appropriate. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: cite is a single element. A full bibliographic reference will typically contain a selection from: Article name Journal name Authors name(s) Editors name(s) Date of publication and probably a few other things. As you can see, each item needs to be kept distinct from each other, so a single container is not enough. Not necessarily. HTML is a very semantically poor language, which of course doesn't have any granular elements that can distinguish content down to that level. All of that would probably fall under a single cite. If you *do* feel that, even though there are no adequate elements to distinguish these separate bits of the citation, they should be physically separated in the markup, you could still provide them as a neutral series of spans. A suitable micro-format would be great, but the point is that regardless of what non-sighted users require, a visual user requires a visual distinction. Which can then be provided by styling the separate spans. Unless under visual user you also mean visual user in a text-only or otherwise CSS incapable browser, which again would bring us back to the core problem of this argument. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A very similar example would be bibliographic citations What's wrong with cite then? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Just because something is visual doesn't mean that it doesn't have meaning. Of course. But HTML has far more sophisticated ways to convey meaning behind the scenes than printed material, which intrinsically has to convey the extra meaning in a visual way. What came first? The extra meaning, or the way print designers / typesetters / etc had to implement it? I have long been a member of the scientific community and I write Latin arthropod binomials. This is a visual thing, but it's something I want -- and feel necessary -- to convey whether CSS is supported or not. And using a span with appropriate class (or similar) still carries this meaning...it's just that it doesn't, by default, present it *visually*, which should maybe not be expected in situations where CSS is off/not supported. I suspect the W3C would agree with this else they'd deprecate these elements, but they haven't. They also haven't deprecated sub/sup, but that's the same issue there. Basically, to preserve backwards compatibility, they can't deprecate them, imho, because there's no other markup element from the old set that can mark up the various meanings which, visually, translate to sub and sup. But hey, it's just the idealist in me talking... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: you also need to point out with alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo... Not necessarily. The alt can just be Company name. And if the logo has a strapline Company name - strapline. The fact that it's a logo is irrelevant. Alt reflects the meaning of the image, which in the case of a logo is to brand the content with the company's name. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: but we all know that for the best screen reader users expirience, it is still better that headeings contain text only... But we are not designing sites solely to cater for screen reader users. Using an image in markup, with correct alt, is perfectly fine and still usable for all audiences, sighted or not. Why would one want to use an image, rather than CSS trickery? Many reasons...one would be to avoid potential css on/images off issues (as previously discussed on the list), if one cares about that particular configuration; another would be a restrictive CMS; or, which is the situation I usually face, when there are multiple authors with varying skill levels editing pages and requiring them to set up specific image replacements for all their particular graphical needs is simply not a realistic option, and it's far easier for them to put an image in as long as they provide the right alternative text behind it. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: Something like ... screan reader reads it dotdotdot... that is anoying. This is the start of shorten news text and it ends with dotdotdot It is something that is also a part usability issue, while it anoyes while listening... But the thing is: it may annoy you, but does it annoy actual blind users of the software, or is it just something that they're not even hearing anymore because they're used to it and it's just part of their daily experience? From the handful of blind screenreader users I've conversed with in the past few years, this sort of thing is not something they've ever mentioned to me as an annoyance. In this specific example, dot dot dot is - both in written form, and when spelled out - a convention to mark an omission. Also, it will depend on the screenreader's specific verbosity settings, in many cases, whether this is read out or simply replaced with an appropriately long pause of silence. In general terms, what I'm trying to convey here is: it's easy to pick up a screenreader as a sighted user, do some testing, and come to some conclusions, all with the right intentions of course, like oh, this must be annoying for those users...but, not being a blind user who uses that technology day in, day out, it's also possible to draw some erroneous conclusions, or to seek absolute, black and white maxims (this should never be done) where there are really just opinions, personal preferences, and lots of shades of gray. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
Quoting Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On the iPhone's site, I thought the Safari demo [www.apple.com/iphone/internet] was the least impressive thing. The fact that it's the most sophisticated (read: complex) hand-held browser is not necessarily good - for example, the browsing of the nytimes and fandango as demonstrated looked completely ineffectual. Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. They could start by honouring media=handheld, rather than pretending that even on a small screen device, your browser should fetch the styling set for normal screens. I've asked a contact of mine at Apple if Safari on iPhone does this, but he couldn't give me any specifics at this stage either. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Mihael Zadravec wrote: well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a file (header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there are no whitespaces :D Are you checking for whitespace in the final HTML that's sent to the browser, i.e. doing a view source? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Quoting Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I use it because it's annoying if while moving cursor around the site, it constantly changes. So it seems nicer if it does not change, but still able to grab a certain text... Annoying to you, perhaps, but vital for other users. It's generally a bad idea to override such UI defaults. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Quoting Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow. Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking default functionality in browsers to aid these users is not a sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on the browser's default behaviour. In short: it's not your role as web content developer to impose certain things like these on all your visitors to fix browsers. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Quoting Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED]: that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera displays arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text... So then people who find the default behaviour in other browsers annoying should consider switching to Opera. Do you people think that they should change that because users maybe don't know if they can grab the text or not? Long time Opera users wouldn't know any different, but certainly users switching from some other browser to Opera may be confused by this. Either way, it's up to Opera to implement what they think is best for their audience. Although not a deal breaker, this is one of those little things that make me slightly dislike Opera's browser, personally. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility
Quoting Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One of the points in accessibility checks is that information conveyed using colour is also conveyed without. The most common way of doing visited links is to have them be a slightly different colour. It's my opinion that in a purely visual sense (because I don't know how screen readers announce visited links) this approach is inaccessible. Screen readers would normally announce whether a link is link or visited link (at least I recall my old version of JAWS doing so). I'd tend to agree in principle, but I would suggest that, unless a site is monstrously large and uses cryptic link text that differs from page to page, it wouldn't be a complete accessibility hurdle for a user if they didn't perceive the difference between visited/non-visited links. It's more of a nice usability feature than an accessibility one...though, if your design allows for it, it's certainly something that you could look at working around, going the extra mile to accommodate users with colour blindness or similar. I'd imagine there'll be some votes for bold/normal problem here is that, if these links are part of the main page content, inline in a paragraph for instance, the change from bold to normal may trigger some content reflow as the link gets activated. If it's an in-page link, this will be even more visible (as the bold link text is switched to normal, it takes up less space, so the rest of the paragraph and following content butt up to fill the space). underline/normal Shouldn't really remove the underline if, again, the link is part of a para of text or similar inversion of background and foreground colour accessible? That could work, but might look a bit heavy-handed. fancy checkbox images (but obviously requires images which raises another issue) Not for colour blindness. As mentioned above, screen readers would cope fine on their own either way. So, the only potential issue is the usual css on/images off scenario which, frankly, I have got little time for (if power users decide to go for that, then they should expect their experience to be slightly different and some possible usability features lost) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
Quoting Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On the issue of background-images: I had never heard of people turning off background images before coming to the list. How is it done? Why is it done? How common is it? In your browser's preferences, often hidden away. Why? To save bandwidth. A site should still function and provide important information in that scenario (which is often the argument against certain image replacement techniques), but in general I'd treat it as roughing it, a conscious decision on the user's part, so certain usability niceties etc often can't be accommodated in this particular scenario. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: SUP
My hardline semantics reply would be... Jan Brasna wrote: Math (a2), square units (km2), Should be MathML? chemistry formulas (Na2CO3) ... ChemML? ... I see it more as an exponent|index|agent|factor / (metaphorically, if you know what I mean) than simply sup|sub / that's it, exactly. I'd rather see some specific elements with better defined semantics, but not in the core language, but as a module (if we're thinking XHTML 2.0 for a second). but at least there's a tool for marking up that difference in a document. Theoretically, would you like it more if it were called indexsomething /? Possibly, yes. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: SUP (was Re: [WSG] dreamweaver additional tags extension)
Designer wrote: See: http://colorantshistory.org/HistoryInternationalDyeIndustryRev1/HistoryInternationalDyestuffIndustryFirefox/dyestuffs.html As it is a 'scientific' publication, I followed the normal scientific conventions, so the references are all 'SUPped'. That is a visual convention, so I'd relegate it to CSS and just style them as spans (or even better, mark them up as links that jump to the reference, and style the links). They don't lose any meaning, in my opinion, if - when CSS is off/unavailable - they're not visually displayed as SUP. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dreamweaver additional tags extension
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Nothing monumental, but I thought this could come in handy - particularly when put together with existing buttons in a Favorites tab. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/88/ Just a show of hands, if you don't mind: who here would also be keen to see those oddly CompSci specific elements KBD, VAR and SAMP included as well? I'm still convinced that SUB and SUP are primarily presentational http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg24851.html so I wouldn't really want to include those. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
SUP (was Re: [WSG] dreamweaver additional tags extension)
Designer wrote: I don't want to start the argument all over again, Patrick, but I had occasion to use SUP recently so I wondered how you'd do it instead? I presume you'd define it in CSS with a smaller font and bottom padding, but it seems a bit like overkill . . .? Depends on the context (which is really the point: sub/sup, as they currently stand, don't actually provide a proper context, but just define how something should look). So, what occasion was it, exactly? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] dreamweaver additional tags extension
Nothing monumental, but I thought this could come in handy - particularly when put together with existing buttons in a Favorites tab. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/88/ P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] New UK rules
Matthew Smith wrote: However, Impressum is generally a page, with a link to it. Repeating the same information on the footer of every page is not, in my opinion, in the spirit of the Web. Obviously an idea of someone still living in the paper age... in that sentence on their Web sites and in their e-mail footers, I'd think footers refers only to email...i.e. we're not actually talking about stuffing all that info in every page footer. Unless I'm misreading this, of course... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: [WD]: [ANN] New release of the W3C CSS Validator - Fuji
(I know I'll burn in hades for top posting, but I want to both comment and pass this on to other lists at the same time) Nice work. I've made a comment on the blog based on a really superficial look of the new system, but while it's waiting in the moderation cue, I thought I'd echo it here as well: Two small quibbles: * There seems to be no way to get to the More Options pseudo-link via the keyboard, making it impossible for keyboard users with javascript enabled to actually access those options * With javascript off, those More Options pseudo-links are still present, but useless. Could these not be generated via DOM scripting, so they're only there when they actually work? (and yes, injecting a proper A element into the document) * On the results page, warnings etc are in a table, but the table itself has no THEAD and THs for each column. Could this be added (and then hidden, i.e. absolutely positioned off-left rather than display:none, of course)? Patrick Karl Dubost wrote: FYI: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/2006Dec/0025 Dear all, Just in time to celebrate the 10th anniversary of CSS, comes a new release of the W3C CSS validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ The new release gets a lot of bug fixes, has updated support for CSS2.1, uses CSS2.1 as its default validation profile, sports a new User Interface, cleaner validation results layout and a wholly revamped documentation - all available in 9 languages. Read More: http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/12/the_fuji_css_validator_release Thanks and congratulations to Jean-Guilhem Rouel, Karl Dubost, Yves Lafon (W3C) as well as Peter Zhelezniakov (Sun Microsystems) and a great number of translators from the W3C Offices and volunteer user community for their work on this new release. We are looking forward to making the tool even better, even easier to use, even more World Wide - contributions welcome. Regards, olivier -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fieldset but no legend
Keryx webb wrote: form id=seek action=seek.php method=post fieldset label for=seektextSeek: /label input name=seektext id=seektext type=text / input type=submit value=sök / /fieldset /form This is my question, since I do need a containing element for my input elements, but see no real reason to have a legend, am I misusing the fieldset element? In a very broad sense, one could argue that every form should at least have one fieldset wrapping everything in it. At that point, though, I'd say that the form itself already acts (semantically/structurally) as the logical container for all the form elements within, and adding an extra fieldset is semantic overkill. The only real reason I put in the fieldset tags is to comply with the DTD. But perhaps a div would be better? I'd say a div would be a fair enough choice here Will screen readers provide any unnecessary information if I do use the fieldset element, that seemed most appropriate for this job? (My only testing tool is Fangs.) This may be of interest http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/general-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-fieldset-legends/ P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Menu Question
Jeff D. Reid wrote: How are they creating the menu navigation at http://www.postglover.com/ ? Badly? The menu seems to be completely generated via javascript (i'm guessing it's the part with the comment ComponentArt Web.UI client-side storage for Inc_nav1_Menu1), and without js the menu just isn't there. It's the '90s all over again... How are they doing the image rotating beneath the menu as well? function ComponentArt_Rotator() I would shy away from looking at this site as an example of good practice, if you ask me... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG CMS] MySource Matrix?
I recently came across MySource Matrix. As it appears to be used by the AGIMO, I was wondering if anybody on the list here has been using it at all? And further, how accessible is the admin interface itself (not the output of the system)? The site mentions WCAG, but I didn't spot any reference to ATAG... http://matrix.squiz.net/ Cheers, P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
Re: [WSG] Replacing target attribute in form
Robin @ Xplore.net wrote: a href=http://google.com/; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; A Test Link /a Doesn't answer the actual question about how to do it in forms, though... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] semantics for a binary tree?
Christian Montoya wrote: http://www.imperialegyptianstud.com/the-stallions/imperial_shehaab.html My initial reaction was just, keep using the table. Thoughts? I'd say a complex table (using all the appropriate headers attributes on the various cells to define relationships) would be the most appropriate way to mark this up, yes. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] best way to style the Tags?
Tee G. Peng wrote:
OK, take http://technorati.com/ homepage for example.
I could only think it this way:
.bush {font-size: 1.5em}
.comedy {font-size: .9em}
.democrates {font-size: 1.2em}
or more generic naming:
.big {font-size: 1.5em}
.small {font-size: .9em}
.medium {font-size: .12em}
lispan class=bigbush/span span class=smallcomedy/spanspan
class=mediumdemocrates/span/li
That relies completely purely on styling to convey meaning. Not saying
that the heavily nested EMs are ideal, but at least they convey meaning
in the markup, where your proposed solution only applies a visual
distinction to otherwise equal and generic spans.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
Christian Montoya wrote: On 11/2/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. Felix Miata springs to mind... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility Trustmark
Emma Sax wrote: Agreed. If a large company like O2 hadn't decided to buy into it, it would have been easier to fob off. Didn't Segala CEO Paul Walsh actually work for O2 at some point, before setting up on his own? At the very least, he had some prior connection with them, but my memory fails me. Oh, and it's nice to see that somebody in charge of the web servers at Segala finally worked out how to stop Apache from doing directory listings...up until not so long ago, simply going to http://www.segala.com/certificate/accessibility/ listed the 5 or 6 official certificates that they've issued (which at that point included 2 or 3 O2 sites, the DaVinci Trail site - also O2 - and Segala's site itself, only...) And, to throw some more petrol on the fire: membership to W3C workgroups can be *bought*, and is not given for merit... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility Trustmark
Tim wrote: Why not just use the W3C icons or the Cynthia icon tested at the page bottom? I'm not paying someone who knows less than me to rate my site. Even the RNIB See it Right logo costs money. Why get sucked into a lot of commercial greed? The W3C or Cynthia badges only attest that a page/site passes automated testing. A proper audit, such as the RNIB's, conscientiously carries out manual testing and user testing. And those human testers cost money, unfortunately... For the more general discourse, I'd say that trustmarks are only as trustworthy as the people who issue them, and the organisations that recognise them as authoritative (same as certificates for accessible web design that institutions/organisations issue for passing courses or tests). Also, they're usually only valid at the time of the test, and unless there's a constant, continuous monitoring and reevaluation programme in place, their worth can only be transitory. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Flash is more accessible than CSS?
Quoting Web Dandy Design [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The BBC did ask for feedback so it maybe worth trying to give a balanced opinion and correct some of the inaccuracies of the article/broadcast. Does your article is a crock of misinformed sh*t count as balanced? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Chris Williams wrote: Assuming that the user in this case is the developer who is developing the site (the only one who has a reason for the output), then they can unblock it... Oh great, so for the mere mortal users these already cryptic and useless links can become even more useless and cryptic because, when clicked, they then take them to an even more ominous error page? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/25/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would be the reason for choosing htm or html for file extension? Youthful ignorance? DOS 8.3 filename compatibility? :-P P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Tee G. Peng wrote: Hi, I wonder if there is (free) js code out there that can generate xhtml/css validation links that people put at the bottom of their sites. Maybe more of a philosophical question here, but: why would you want those links on all pages (assuming this is client work, yes)? Who are they useful to, if not other developers and/or yourself? It's quite tedious to make the links manually, page by page. Include files are your friend (even humble SSIs, if there's no server-side scripting language available) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Chris Williams wrote: You don't need a snippet of code. Just put in: http://validator.w3.org/check/referer And http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer These will check the page that called them... As long as the user's browser doesn't have referer blocking, such as is the case with Norton Internet Security if I remember correctly. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Tee G. Peng wrote: Yes, it's for client's site. Not out of fame but perhaps marketing purpose. My dedication with extra hours of work for validating markups, css and section 508 (note, I don't just rely on validation tool but my eyes) on each page pay off, because I got a few gigs from companies and web design firms to do web standards compliant sites :). If I only put a link on the home page, it only mean the home page is validated, not other pages. Clients want their clients/ audiences know that each page is validated and section 508 compliant. Besides, this is a good way to promote web standards I think. Personally, I'd say that a discreet mention in a site's about or credits section is more appropriate. *users* don't have a use for those links, and being sent to a technical site (such as a validator results page) won't make them any more clued up about standards. IMHO, of course. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Include files are your friend (even humble SSIs, if there's no server-side scripting language available) You're right about using referer, it's not reliable. But include files won't make the links submit differently (depending on which document host them), and I think that's what Tee is after. Yes, SSIs wouldn't, but I'd think with proper scripting languages you could have includes which then, in turn, echo out the current page's url as parameter for the validator link. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Rob O'Rourke wrote: Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as long as it is a block by default in this case. Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits of CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info on this? Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Jough wrote: I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an argument DL is a badly (or rather, fluffily) designed construct, so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or orang utan). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Tee G. Peng wrote: Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job. What I'm saying is: the definition list is fine, the additional proposed use of a DL and a UL is probably fine as well, and you could even treat it as a small table (as long as appropriate headings are given for both columns and rows). Personally, I wouldn't see any problem just with the DL. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Article: using JS to plug IMG in headings
Thierry Koblentz wrote: A perfect solution is just a solution that *answers* well a particular problem. Improving on a perfect solution doesn't make it more perfect, it makes it better :) To nitpick, though, by most definitions perfect can't be improved upon, hence it can be perceived as a tad presumptuous to use it... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using real images for quotes in blockquote
Matthew Pennell wrote: The first thought that occurs to me - couldn't this be done using :before and :after instead? Not in IE though... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background Image Bullets
Gene Falck wrote: That site shows a background image bullet problem that affects files with many list bullets formed using the background image method. I see this result running Mozilla 1.7 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616) on Win XP (Home) with SP2. Based on that string, the version you're running was released on 16 June 2004...I occasionally run version 1.7.8 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 and don't see the issue you mention. So yes, definitely looks like it was a bug (which has been fixed since 2004). In fact, it may have been around for a while (see this bugzilla report from 2002) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174981 P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Textarea attribues.
David Dorward wrote: On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 10:40:37PM +0100, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: And speaking of XHTML 1.0, I was surprised to also find a lot of presentational attributes still left in the table-related elements (table, tr, th, td, col etc), even in strict. Surely width, border, cellspacing, cellpadding, valign, halign could have been expunged from strict? The design predates CSS 2, so there wasn't a suitable alternative. XHTML 1.0 is dated 26 January 2000, while CSS 2 is 12 May 1998 ... or am I missing something here? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Textarea attribues.
Jough wrote: True, but unlike 'row' and 'col' for textarea which are required, all attributes you have mentioned are implied [1]. What makes these different? I agree that there should be NO presentation attributes in XHTML strict, but if we are to have some why would they be required? [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd Ah, you're right, forgot about that...that's even worse, definitely. And yes, based on the definition of those attributes, there's really nothing beyond the presentation intended This attribute specifies the number of visible text lines. [...] This attribute specifies the visible width in average character widths. Maybe somebody from the W3C HTML list could enlighten us as to why these attributes were kept as required? Is it just for backwards compatibility? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Textarea attribues.
David Dorward wrote: On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:12:10PM +0100, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: The design predates CSS 2, so there wasn't a suitable alternative. XHTML 1.0 is dated 26 January 2000, while CSS 2 is 12 May 1998 ... or am I missing something here? XHTML 1.0 is a direct port (well, almost) of HTML 4.01 to XML. HTML 4.01 is a bug fix to HTML 4.0. HTML 4.0 came out in December '97. Ah, gotcha. It's starting to make sense, in a perverse sort of way. It still (maybe) leaves the question why XHTML 1.1 decided to keep them in the forms modules, since 1.1 is meant as a consistent, forward-looking document type cleanly separated from the deprecated, legacy functionality of HTML 4 Then again, maybe they felt that rows and cols weren't legacy functionality for some reason... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Textarea attribues.
Rene Saarsoo wrote: The problem with textarea is, how it should be displayed, when CSS is off? Should it default to 5, 10, 15, 20, ... rows? How wide should it be? Wide enough to write a poem, or as wide as the entire page? But that's a UA issue, and UAs handle the same thing for inputs and selects already. Whether they do a good job or a bad one is certainly up for question, but taking the what if CSS is off approach can lead to an argument for reintroducing any presentational stuff back into the markup...i.e. it's a slippery slope. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Absolute URLs, RSS Feeds Mod_Rewrite
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I'd be interested in what many of you feel is best practice in the use of the following, in combination: 1. User/SE friendly urls (eg http://www.domain.com/folder/1/3/ as opposed to http://www.domain.com/folder/index.php?$a=1amp;$b=3) Looks more professional, easier to deal with if you ever decide to switch technologies (php to jsp or whatever), and some search engines don't follow/separately index the second type of URL with GET variables attached (although this may have changed in recent years, as I'm sure I've come across search results which included them) 2. Relative vs absolute urls (eg http://www.domain.com/images/1.jpg vs ../images/1.jpg) Should *all* pages be in a flat file system to avoid ../../ etc, Two questions wrapped in one. You already mention part of the answer later on: to avoid the whole ../ referencing when pointing to things like images, which are usually always in a known location, reference them just from the root of the site, e.g. img src=/images/1.jpg ... I'd avoid the ../ shenanigans, as that makes your directories less portable (if you move a dir, the relative reference to common files may get broken - of course, references from the root of the site can also break if you moved the images folder, for instance). should I use index.php inside its own folder as the default file name for each page? I usually take a hybrid approach (combined with content negotiation in Apache): I usually don't reference index.php at all (linking to the directory only), and any other single files I just link to as if they were directories, e.g. / /about/index.php /about/bio.php I would link to as a href=/ ... a href=/about/ ... a href=/about/bio/ ... respectively. Again, this last one works thanks to content negotiation, aka MultiViews 3. RSS feed requirements Is it true that RSS requires the use of absolute urls? From what I remember, RSS doesn't have a concept of base URL, so yes you'd need absolute URLs. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera Mini and lists
Geoff Pack wrote: Oh come on - are you saying Opera Mini can parse a stylesheet and but isn't powerful enough to indent a line of text and stick a bullet in front of it? or a number in case of OLs? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: class names and IDs (was Re: [WSG] p:first-line)
Tony Crockford wrote: Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: That said, for my clients, using .left, .right, .center will be more intuitive. exactly! For some clients it's also easier to use table layouts and font tags... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: class names and IDs (was Re: [WSG] p:first-line)
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
a img, img.posA, img.posB, img.posC {
background-color : #fff;
border : 0;
}
img.posA {
float : left;
margin : 0 15px 5px 0;
}
img.posB {
float : right;
margin : 0 0 5px 15px;
}
img.posC {
margin : 5px auto;
}
The class refers to a position (pos) or primary class function, this is
unlikely to change. The only change would be the position's definition. That
would be written in an open-ended fashion using A, B, C.
I'd go with something along those lines, yes, or even more generically
(if you foresee that at some point you may not want all images on the
same position, but differentiate them some other way - e.g. one has a
blue border, the other a red border, etc) having classnames like type1,
type2, type3 (as that doesn't imply position).
Sure, it can be taken to an extreme in these cases. I'm flying the
highly idealistic flag here, but reality and pragmatism obviously
prevail in day to day work.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: class names and IDs (was Re: [WSG] p:first-line)
Lea de Groot wrote: There aren't many cases where there is a need to do this. So, when the answer to 'what will this do on the page?' starts with 'all these items will...' then they should have a classname that is meaningful. When the answer is 'they all do this; but some of them have this appearance and some have that. its arbitrary and I assign A or B as my gut indicates' then you don't have a semantic name. How I wish for some reasonable level of CSS 3's :nth-child(n) pseudo-class support, where this could then be abstracted to completely into a separate CSS file without the need for any class assignments at all... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] p:first-line
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
What I mean is if he wants just the first line of a *multi-paragraph*
container indented, then it'd be best to apply the class.
div id=description
p class='first-linePara one/p !-- only this para indented --
pPara two/p
pPara three/p
/div
#description p.first-line {
text-indent : 3em;
}
To be picky, the class name should then be first-paragraph to
accurately describe what you're doingor simply first :)
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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class names and IDs (was Re: [WSG] p:first-line)
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
I would come up with
something that meant something to me and that made sense. Indent really
wasn't bad, though. In the CSS it would have been written as #description
p.indent { } which really is quite telling as to what it is, where it is,
and what it's for. Agreed?
Maybe it's philosophical hairsplitting, but indent still describes the
visual effect you're trying to achieve, rather than being a name
describing either the function or a characteristic of the content
itself. IMHO first falls under that second category (it's an attribute
of the content this is the first of something in the absence of
consistent :first-child support). indent however is just the same as
class names like red, centered, bold, big, etc which should
really be avoided, as they are relating purely to the presentational
aspects and not related to the pure content itself.
Again, IMHO.
P (probably sounding like a grumpy old class name evangelist ;) )
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] p:first-line
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Is it because that class is shown in the mark up layer that makes it somehow wrong? Yup. http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/goodclassnames -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] option text in FireFox
Nick Roper wrote: Hi Group, The following page has some dropdown lists for dates. In IE and Opera the option text appears OK, but in FF the dropdown arrow obscures part of the last character of the text - almost as though there isn't enough room to display it properly. Any ideas on what might be causing this ? did you set a width (via CSS)? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PDF no chance to open in browser !?
Martin Heiden wrote: Gaspar, You can send the pdf with a custom mime-type like x-application/x-pdf. Or a generic standard one like AddType application/octet-stream pdf in your httpd.conf or .htaccess P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] font standards today
Kepler Gelotte wrote: There is a problem converting text to images - you can no longer copy and paste. In the sIFR example page you can: If the generated image also has the right alt text, you can copy paste if you start just before the image (just as with sIFR). The only thing that you can't do is select just a set of characters/words from the replaced heading itself (bit sIFR is limited here as well: you can't start a selection inside the heading and then move further down into the normal text...the selection is locked inside the heading, unless, as above, you start your selection outside of the flash) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] font standards today
Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: Very interesting discussion. But it really makes me wonder – what’s the point of having a ‘designer’ if we leave everything up to the user. Isn’t a designer – graphic and/or web – supposed to be using their knowledge and experience to create something that is visually attractive and successfully promotes the client’s product/service/whatever? The way I'd articulate it, a designer provides one or more suggested visual presentations/layouts, but the power ultimately lies in the hands of the user to consume the actual information any way he/she wishes. Faced with the choice between the same content presented as (1) an attractive colourful graphic magazine and (2) a typewritten (courier font!) stapled bunch of pages, what would the user choose I wonder?! (not!) Depends on the goal the user is trying to achieve, coupled with any potential disability they might have, strong personal preference, technical limitations of their current viewing device, etc. But if they don’t see the first option, then they’d pick up the other, and not know what they were missing. And, depending on any of the above, they may not care. Sure they’d get the same content, but their user experience would not be as enjoyable That's up to the user to decide, again based on the above. or possibly useful. If your content relies on its visual presentation to be of use, then it may not be accessible. Blind people wouldn’t care which font was used. I guess graphic design is something for the seeing. But that doesn’t mean that they (we) shouldn’t be catered for! It's not just a case of blind people versus every seeing user. There is a certain arrogance to designers who maintain that they know better than the user what's best for them. Again, see the first part of my answer...it's a case of suggesting a presentation, but being prepared to accept that users should be able to consume your content any way they please. Sometimes I wonder if we throw away too much with the bathwater when we go all out for accessibility. In its essence, design itself is the art of finding solutions to problems. The often contradictory requirements of strong visual branding and accessibility of the content to the largest possible audience are certainly challenging at times, but with knowledge and a touch of pragmatism it's perfectly possible to create design solutions that satisfy both. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] font standards today
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: This is the best comment I read all day. Why not use unusual fonts to make the design look good (of course keeping legibility in mind - that is part of a good design) Because, if it's unusual, you can rest assured that 99.% of your visitors won't have it, so you might as well not do it. Provide a fall-back for those users that don't have the font and make sure your design still works and the font is still easy to read. I thought this part was just common knowledge? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A elements and psuedo-classes
In reverse order...
Andrew Ingram wrote:
Wouldn't just styling the a tag by itself achieve the same effect? In
fact, I can't really see any reasons to use the :link class at all. Is
there something bad about not using the :link psuedo-class?
Just using a also affects any anchors you may have, such as
a name=section1Section 1/a
Using a:link just targets proper a href=... ones.
As far as I know, link and visited are mutually exclusive, and I quite
often see people do things like a:link, a:visited {}, but i'm having
difficulty understanding why people doing it this way.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive. In theory, you can also do
a:link:visited - so not completely mutually exclusive. I can't be
bothered testing, but I think that a:visited would also affect named
anchors as above which have been visited.
Hope this makes some kind of sense,
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] htaccess, help please
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks, i have done this and it does not appear to work. the file is up now if you would like to check out the results. http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/svg-test.html It works insofar as your .svg file is now sent with the correct image/svg+xml mime type. However, your svg file itself may be at issue here Looking at the code of http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/svg1.svg it appears to be referencing svg1_Images\svg1_ImgID1.gif which I don't think is anywhere on your server? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] on P H1-H6 Block Elements
Shlomi Asaf wrote: i just been informed that P Hn Elements are Inline Element. How Come? how can those elements be inline, and the user-agent render them as Block-level elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-P this information shocked the ground im standing on. You wouldn't be shocked if you read the DTD properly. I'm assuming that this is what you're referring to: !ELEMENT (%heading;) - - (%inline;)* -- heading -- !ELEMENT P - O (%inline;)*-- paragraph -- the (%inline;)* part refers to the type of elements that the H and P *are allowed to contain*, and does NOT refer to the H and P themselves. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#block defines what elements are block level, and you'll see that %headings is listed there. So unshock yourself, all is as it should be... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages
Sigurd Magnusson wrote: Has anyone used a separate, external print style sheet so that you could review requests of the file, e.g. print.css, and look at the 'referer', thereby seeing which pages get printed on a website? Does this technique work, or do some browsers download this file with great abandon, undermining the accuracy of doing this? Just checking in Firefox with the LiveHTTPHeaders extension, it looks like FF downloads the print.css when the page is loaded, not when you hit print or print preview. I'll go out on a limb and say that this behaviour may well be common in other browsers as well...so doing stats based on the hits to that file seems like a no go. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to add svg+xml to htaccess file
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have located the htaccess file on my server. my host doesn't want to change their current setup. what is the proper syntax to add this to the htaccess file? i would really like to do a copy and paste on this. would someone please help? lastly, is there a mime type svg-xml? Your host should change it, because svg-xml is an outdated type (by almost 6 years) http://support.adobe.com/devsup/devsup.nsf/docs/50809.htm If they're stubborn muppets, though, the syntax would be AddType image/svg+xml .svg P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] firefox doesn't render svg file
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've been experimenting all night and firefox doesn't want to render the svg file at all. i get a download dialog box about the svg file. i just now found out there is not a svg plugin in the download actions dialog of my copy and it is the latest update. could someone point me in the direction to get the svg plugin that is supposed to be native to firefox. i'm really disappointed. http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/svg-test-1.html maybe someone has a copy of firefox that will render the svg file on this page natively. Same thing happening on my copy of 1.5 Your markup seems right, so I'd check the server configuration to make sure it's sending out the correct MIME type for .svg files http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/#server-configuration P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Rounded Corners
James O'Neill wrote: Validating is a great start. But doesn't guarantee anything other than you've used the right syntax. It's the same as running a spell check in your word processor: it can tell you if you've misspelled words, but it can't tell you if what you've written makes any sense at all. Maybe someone could propose a more semantically appropriate example to what was posted? There is no semantically appropriate way to generate a generic rounded corner box like that. So, if you absolutely must have that exact look, you need to resort to tricks, one way or another. Depending on what content you're actually working with, you could find enough elements to naturally hook into to position the 4 required backgrounds. But you shouldn't have to sully your markup with a myriad of empty elements and meaningless containers only to achieve a visual presentation. Patrick, care to take a swing at it? =) I've been shaking my head so hard, I gave myself whiplash... Earlier in this discussion, somebody said that yes, in an ideal world, the (X)HTML should only carry pure meaning, and the CSS do all the styling...but that in the real world, we do occasionally add certain tiny things (like wrapping things like a site logo, top navigation and search inside a header div - still semantic and structural) to facilitate styling. And sure enough, I agree (in fact, that's one of the points I make in my chapter in the upcoming book[1]). But what about that code sample before? Let's see: - use of B, a purely presentational element which, for whatever reason, was still kept in the XHTML spec - nested B, which make even less sense - LOTS of *empty* B elements - this is the big one: if you start slapping lots of empty elements into your document (even if they're spans, or even if you wrapped your content into 10 separate DIVs or something) you're doing it *purely* for presentational purposes; that's the big difference to wrapping things up in a header div or something...there is *no* semantic justification for empty elements placed into the markup solely for the purpose of allowing some CSS trickery Anyway, long rant...at the end of the day, you're obviously free to do what you think is necessary to achieve a certain look. But I'd sincerely question methods that require you to add junk to your document. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 and 'Until user agents...'
Lindsay Evans wrote: I'm in the process of defining accessibility guidelines for a new site, and am thinking it would be helpful to eliminate certain WCAG checkpoints that are no longer relevant and could possibly lead to usability problems if followed to the letter Here are my thoughts on which WCAG 1.0 checkpoints can be knowingly ignored: 10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels and form controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, ensure that the label is properly positioned. (though it's still best practice from a usability point of view) 10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links. (as long as there is at least a single space, and the styling of your page is clear enough - e.g. maybe a bit of extra horizontal padding for inline links) 1.5 Until user agents render text equivalents for client-side image map links, provide redundant text links for each active region of a client-side image map. (as far as I know, all modern user agents should cope fine with properly marked up client-side image map...as long as you provide ALTs for each AREA) 10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel, word-wrapped columns. (since most AT looks to the document source, rather than simply visually scraping the screen, this shouldn't cause any more issues) 10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default, place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas. (apart from old braillers, this is not an issue anymore; in fact, having place-holding content can be a usability issue, as users need to go the extra step of first deleting the default content) Unfortunately I don't have an exact list showing what current UAs/ATs support...this is mainly based on empirical evidence, discussions with users of specific ATs, and a bit of gut instinct. Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Rounded Corners
Steve Eades wrote: Hi, I have been playing with Spiffy Corners @ http://www.spiffycorners.com/ for an Intranet but the Spiffy assures that it is Anti-aliased rounded corners using pure CSS. No Images. No Javascript. No fluff. I can assume you that it is very easy to implement and scalable. Works on Macs too. Looking at the required markup div b class=spiffy b class=spiffy1b/b/b b class=spiffy2b/b/b b class=spiffy3/b b class=spiffy4/b b class=spiffy5/b /b div class=spiffy_content !-- Your Content Goes Here -- /div b class=spiffy b class=spiffy5/b b class=spiffy4/b b class=spiffy3/b b class=spiffy2b/b/b b class=spiffy1b/b/b /b /div all I can say is...wow *shakes head* P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Rounded Corners
Paul Novitski wrote: If you call me a conservativist you're right :) I hope we can find a way to the realm of the rounded corners without solutions like this. Sure -- we can just use SPAN or DIV instead. But that still litters the markup with empty, meaningless elements which are there purely to serve the visual layout... Injecting them via javascript may seem a bit more cumbersome, but at least it would keep the content source devoid of non-content-carrying junk. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF link in XHTML???
Tom Livingston wrote: Target=_blank in XHTML (see original subject line) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Alphabetical Listing Buttons
Felix Miata wrote: Richard's alphabet is a simple row array I'd tend to lean more towards can be interpreted as a simple row array. no user with page styles unavailable will see anything remotely resembling the row format that Richard wants Which should be fine, as styles are used for formatting. It seems natural that, without styles, users won't see a particular format... Anyway, at the end of the day, use a table if you think it's a row array, or use a list if you think an the alphabet is an ordered list of characters. As with those endless discussions of how to best mark up a breadcrumb trail (an unordered list, an ordered list, a nested ordered list of ordered lists ad infinitum, etc), there is no one true way of semantically marking up real world content like this with the limited, generic building blocks provided in HTML. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] gmail is ignoring display:none - what to do?
Jake Badger wrote: Don't tables need captions for screen readers? Not necessarily. It's not an either/or situation. Even without a caption, a table can be perfectly accessible and fine for screen reader users (for instance, if there was enough information preceding the table, such as an introductory paragraph that is visible to *everybody*, or a heading, etc). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access Keys and large sites
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well if no-one else is going to say it, then I will have to: Don't use Access Keys except on an Intranet site. And why would an intranet warrant different treatment from any other web content? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
Steve Olive wrote: I agree - another option is to use small icons that are flags of the nations associated with the destiny language Flags are not a good indicator for language, as certain countries can be multi-lingual, and the same language can be spoken in a variety of countries (e.g. UK/US, why give preference of one over the other?). I seem to recall a recent article about this not so long ago, but I'm too tired to hunt for it... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Ben Buchanan wrote: I think the spirit of that item would probably be more practically addressed by avoiding the nothin' but PDF syndrome :) But what if I preferred my documents sent as PDFs? ;) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Felix Miata wrote: Why do you find it necessary to have it in reduced accessibility mode by default? Why not make the alternate stylesheet reduce the contrast? I'll hazard a guess and say: real-world requirements imposed by marketing and branding? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 9 and standards support
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: OT, but I deleted David's original thread and can't find his email address... if anybody knows, can you pass it on off-list? Thanks to all who responded. Got it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 padding, maybe?
David Laakso wrote: Fine here in xp opera9, ff1.5.0.4, or ie/6.0. Personally, I think it is a little early to worry about ie/7-- a lot can change between now and whenever... IE 7beta2 is feature complete with regards to its CSS capabilities...so any issues you see now will be there in the final release, according to Microsoft's Chris Wilson and the IE team P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 9 and standards support
Samuel Richardson wrote: I'm on Windows XP home version, all service packs installed. I also have the Adobe Font Folio installed, so in excess of 1000 fonts or so. Still OT, but: yes, I have about 3000 fonts installed, and David mentioned that this may be an issue (though they thought they had fixed it). I'm going to try using something like Adobe Type Manager, possibly disabling some sets when not in use... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 9 and standards support
OT, but I deleted David's original thread and can't find his email address... if anybody knows, can you pass it on off-list? I hope you all like Opera 9. As always if you have issues in Opera on your site feel free to contact me and we will help you find the cause of the problem. Not related to a site, but to the application itself: admittedly, I have quite a large number of fonts installed on my WinXP box...but for some reason, Opera 9 (and even 8.5) somehow get confused and think Copperplate is actually Verdana, and a rather gothic looking blackletter font is Tahoma. In short, it chooses the completely wrong fonts (both for page display and UI itself). Is this a known issue? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 9 and standards support
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: OT, but I deleted David's original thread and can't find his email address... if anybody knows, can you pass it on off-list? Thanks to all who responded. Got it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Empty spans - semantics and accessibility question
Susan R. Grossman wrote: Semantics are not broken, you aren't using headings, or definition lists CSS is all about separating design from content, and that's what this does. On the other hand, you're peppering your markup (which should define content in meaningful ways) with empty placeholders. I'd avoid this as much as possible, opting instead to find cleverer ways to place your visual fluff (e.g. as a non-repeating background to the parent element, with adequate padding in the right places if at all possible). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
David Dixon wrote: Relevant to the content? From your own list of resources the alt attribute should be a textual alternative for the meaning of the image. It has no more relevance to the content than the image itself, and as the image's purpose is to show the user that the wheelchair is a symbol for accessibility (with further advisory explanation from the title element), then I believe the above example is perfectly valid. It would be true if this was a page explaining symbols. As it stands, though, the purpose of those images is purely an aesthetic enhancement to accompany the text. They serve no purpose. But whatever. It's obvious that until you ascribe meaning to those images, we won't agree on this. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
David Dixon wrote: As for my cigarette example, then yes, I think giving a hint as to colour of the symbol is valid, as this symbol is universal (at least in the UK). The red circle itself symbolises something which is not permitted. If you were to explain what a no smoking symbol looked like without saying the circle was red (even if they have no concept of red looks like) would give a lesser clue as to its purpose as providing its colour. In fact, just saying a red circle, would probably give the idea of something that is not permitted, even before saying it has a picture of a cigarette in it. But again, this is only valid if the page in question with the no smoking sign is explicitly explaining the appearance and meaning of symbols. Otherwise, the purpose of that image is to signal No smoking, which would then be a perfectly appropriate ALT text conveying the meaning of the image. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
David Dixon wrote: I would even go as far as saying that example wheelchair image DOES technically add to the content (its a visual representation of a disabled/wheelchair bound person, and an important visual clue as to the purpose of the content (what do you notice first, the wheelchair image or the text beside it?). It's a visual clue that only mirrors/reinforces the text. The what do you notice first question is a red herring: if we're talking about providing equivalent content to users with screen readers or those with images turned off, do you still think that the argument what do you notice first? the ALT attribute of course holds? I'd say no, it doesn't. You also need to consider what would happen if images were disabled? In your example, all that would show would be a space... not very informative I beg to differ. As the image is only an iconographic representation of the text that's immediately next to it, a user that has images disabled still gets the exact same meaning out of the page. In this case, the purpose of the image is purely decorative - visual fluff. I would therefore have no problem with just assigning it as a background image. Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
David Dixon wrote: You are probably correct that if using a screen reader, the user would more than likely get the same information from the page, however the flow at which they get the information would not be the same as someone without visual impairment. That is the difference from making content simply accessible, to making the content accessible an usable (ie ensuring that the flow of information is as you intended). Fine, I'll agree to disagree with you here then. To me, having the ALT text in there Accessibility Testing Consulting - A wheelchair. A symbol for accessibility - Accessibility is a term... Is redundant, compared to Accessibility Testing Consulting - Accessibility is a term... In fact, I'd say the latter is *more* usable, as there's less irrelevant noise which doesn't do anything other than provide visual fluff. Also, I do not see a difference between the usage of the images John is intending to use, and the images that you use for your photographia.co.uk homepage list. You may notice that I haven't updated or worked on photographia for, oh, over 2 years now. At the time, the most reliable markup for my intended layout required me to stick in an IMG element. If I had to rework the site now, I'd include those thumbnails as pure CSS backgrounds. I explicitly set the alt on those images to a null alt because they don't contribute to the content. Therefore, while I believe your reasoning is valid to a point, I don't believe that your solution would bring about the same level of accessibility as the img tag would. Again, looking at my comparison above, if you want to argue that the first example is somehow more accessible than the second one, then yes. I for one would argue that the second example conveys exactly the same information, and allows any user (whether they can see the image or not) to understand the page just fine. Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
Thierry Koblentz wrote: I don't read it like this. For me, the former says a graphic representing a wheelchair is a symbol for accessibility. The latter skips that info. But does that stop you from understanding the page, carrying out any functionality offered by the page, etc? Because going down that route, you'd really also need a longdesc that explains the style in which that symbol is being presented, the colours, any drop shadows, etc. Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site images question
David Dixon wrote: I would probably revise the img tag itself to read something like: img src=/images/accessibility.jpg width=100 height=89 alt=The imagery of a person on a wheelchair is generally considered a symbol for accessibility title=An image of a wheelchair: the symbol for accessibility Sorry, but: for heaven's sake. Can you please demonstrate how that is *useful to any real user* within the context of the page? If this was a page outlining different symbols, fine...but here, it's certainly not needed. As I said, why stop there? Why not explain as well what colours were used to represent this symbol, etc? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility standards - for commercial consumption
Raymond Sonoff wrote: see what my four-year effort has encompassed toward achieving 100% Web accessibility and Web usability, all while conforming to W3C's xHTML 1.0 Strict, CSS, and WCAG Priority Levels 1, 2, and 3, inclusive recommendations on each and every page within the sonoffconsulting.com domain. A rather bold claim. For the interest of learning by example then, could you elaborate on how your site addresses the needs of users with dyslexia and cognitive disabilities in general? Are you using the clearest and simplest language possible? Are the PDFs you provide tagged PDFs? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox refactoring standards-compliant code on render?
Paul Bennett wrote: As we're validating to an xhtml doctype, we use br /, but when I view the source in Firefox, break elements are changed to br. (IE6 leaves them alone) Anyone have any idea why? Are you doing a default View Page Source, or marking a selection of content and View Selection Source from the context menu? The latter will not show the actual markup as it was sent by the server, but the browser's internal representation/DOM (afaik anyway). Or are you running something like the View Rendered Source extension, perhaps? In any case, I've never had this happen before with the default source view. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility standards - for commercial consumption
Mary Krieger wrote: In response to comments from Gunlaug and Patrick on the ease of use of the documents for WCAG 2, I was moved to have a try at revising a short passage - not to change the technical content just to reduce the fog. ... If this kind of rewriting is useful, I would be happy to help. My point was that *we*, the community, should not be doing this. It's the WAI itself who should be providing us with a document that's understandable and usable. As helpful as translations/revisions here may be, they should be fed back to the W3C directly. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility standards - for commercial consumption
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Are WAI fulfilling their mandate by making the guidelines so dense and obscure that they need translation? Not unless that is part of their mandate. One can cover just about everything that way, so maybe it is... From their mission statement: WAI develops support materials to help understand and implement Web accessibility http://www.w3.org/WAI/about-links.html And from the requirements of WCAG 2 Design deliverables with ease of use in mind http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2-req/ So I think they're falling a bit behind on both accounts here... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS is dead... use markup for presentation.
Quoting Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED]: sarcastic pony Looks like most efforts towards separation of content and presentation may cause severe accessibility-failures[1] in the future. Rubbish. This is no different to the current 1.0 Organize documents so they may be read without style sheets. Badly worded in 2.0, for sure. But the concept is the same. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
