Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Mark Fowler

 Take a look at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~bssnrw/getchart.html for a
 differing viewpoint.

Nice BLINK tags.

bss?  Biological Sciences Staff?  Hmmm.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Network Programming with Perl

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

I picked up a copy of Lincoln Stein's new book "Network Programming
with Perl" last night. I've only had time to flick thru a few chapters
but it looks very interesting. I'll bring it along tonight if anyone
wants to hav a look.

Dave...
  



apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll


Apologies one and all,

i am not going to be able to make it tonight, today is my first day
back at work after some flu like illness. i had hoped to make it 
tonight but currently feel like matt wrights code,

see you all at the next meeting,

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:54:40 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Apologies one and all,
 
 i am not going to be able to make it tonight, today is my first day
 back at work after some flu like illness. i had hoped to make it 
 tonight but currently feel like matt wrights code,

OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the day by stepping in to give a 
20 min talk - or do I have to talk about Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?

Dave...



Re: Zebware

2001-01-18 Thread Robert Shiels

From: "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Anyone read/heard about http://www.zebware.com/ ? I just read an article
on
 them in Open (Jan 2001) issue.


 I haven't tried this with Netscape but with IE every element on their
pages
 is drag and drop-able in an impressive/disconcerting way. They employ some
 serious clustering tech as well.


I really dislike the way some of their buttons respond to the downclick, and
not the upclick.

And I'm trying to work out why you'd want to drag and drop paragraphs of
text around?

/Robert




TPJ

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

According to a mail I got on the SPUG mailimng list last night, TPJ #20 _has_ been 
printed and is in the post now.

Which is good news.

Dave...
  



Re: Online Time

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:11:20AM +, Robin Szemeti wrote:

 from this quarters BT bill I managed to accumulate 786 hours of internet
 time .. anyone top that?

I dunno how much it cost per minute, but I averaged five hundred quid per
quarter on the ISDN bill - and I had some free time as well.  Hey, perhaps
my ISDN bills are one of the reasons Oven went tits up!

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Network Programming with Perl

2001-01-18 Thread Redvers Davies

 I picked up a copy of Lincoln Stein's new book "Network Programming
 with Perl" last night. I've only had time to flick thru a few chapters
 but it looks very interesting. I'll bring it along tonight if anyone
 wants to hav a look.

Yes please, I'm just starting a project whereby I have to listen to 
broadcast udp packets.  I'd rather listen to my mp3's.



Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Steve Mynott

"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: "Robin Houston" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Aww c'mon! RedHat was obviously targeted because it's the most
  widely used! None of the vulnerable software was written by RH
  (and all of it was also included in other distros).
 
 That's true -- but how easy is RH to upgrade/patch? And why is RH7 shipping
 with all these services turned on? (NFS? rpc.*? Hello?) Perhaps *that's* why
 it's a steaming pile of crap getting hacked the whole time.

RH is incredibly easy to upgrade with RPM one liners.  There is a
single web page of current security issues if people bothered to read
it they wouldn't get hacked.

RH7 ships with so many services turned on because Redhat marketing
think offering more services by default is popular with customers.
Longer feature list equal better in this world.

Don't blame the distribution (they are all equivalent anyway) blame
the lack of decent sysadmins.

RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
programmers.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

hey, if you can't remember when you booted it, it ain't windoze.



Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Roger Burton West

On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:

RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
programmers.

And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
them.

R



Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:07AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  as a matter of interest what is your fave Linux or *nix install then??
 From what I've been reading on this list, Debian seems to be argued for
 quite a lot, as is FreeBSD (? I think -- one of the BSDs, anyway).

I like Debian for general use, and OpenBSD for servers where there's
a particular security concern...

Michael



Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Tony Bowden

On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 08:40:56PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 If you present the chart in a different format to how they did then
 there's nothing they can do...
 Take a look at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~bssnrw/getchart.html for a
 differing viewpoint.

OK ... when I said "there's nothing they can do", I of course meant
there's nothing they can do if you're prepared to actually fight them
in court, not "they can't send you threatening legal letters that
actually carry no legal weight".

There's nothing at that page to suggest that CIN were doing anything
other than throwing their weight around just to scare someone off.
Which is what companies do all the time. 

I paid thousands of pounds for legal advice on this very issue (albeit
about 5 years ago), and the opinion I got was "factual information
cannot be copyrighted - only the arrangement of it". The classic case is
someone who retypes a phone book. You can't reissue it in the same order
(i.e. alphabetic by surname) as the original, but you could quite happily
order it numberic by phone number and no-one could do anything...

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
make me laugh make me cry enrage me don't try to disengage me
-




Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Philip Newton

Tony Bowden wrote:
 The classic case is someone who retypes a phone book. You
 can't reissue it in the same order (i.e. alphabetic by surname)
 as the original, but you could quite happily order it numberic
 by phone number and no-one could do anything...

They could in Germany :-).

There's been quite a bit of hoo-ha about this in recent years. It started
out with a company providing a telephone CD (apparently they had people in
China type up printed telephone directories, which was cheaper than buying
the data from German Telecom) which also enabled you to search by number.
Then that was forbidden, and third-party companies started selling add-ons
that worked with vendor XYZ's telephone CD to add the reverse search back
in; those are forbidden, too, but these third parties are harder to get at.

I believe the reasoning given is data protection -- people consented to have
their name and number in a book but only for the usual use: looking up a
number by name. And that people are not allowed to provide reverse search
unless they have the consent of all the people involved.

Cheers,
Philip



[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:
 
 RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
 systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
 doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
 programmers.
 
 And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
 clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
 them.

Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of
perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still
need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to
drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do
the second 90% of any job :-)

Anyone know one?

The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-)

And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
 right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 

Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies?

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]
 
 you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
consluting on the side, of course.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

I would join but I appear to be jinxed at the moment. so it would be
unfair on the rest ;)

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Neil Ford

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:54:40 +, Greg McCarroll 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Apologies one and all,

  i am not going to be able to make it tonight, today is my first day
  back at work after some flu like illness. i had hoped to make it
  tonight but currently feel like matt wrights code,

OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the day by 
stepping in to give a 20 min talk - or do I have to talk about 
Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?

Dave...

Well I have both The Matrix and MIB with me on DVD and a DVD capable 
powerbook..

Movie intermission anyone?

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



RE: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread Mike Chamberlain


 
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:22:45AM +, Robin Houston wrote:
 
  MICROSOFT.COM.IS.SECRETLY.RUN.BY.ILLUMINATI.TERRORISTS.NET
  
  but
  
  MICROSOFT.COM.INSPIRES.COPYCAT.WANNABE.SUBVERSIVES.NET
  
  is quite a good explanation of what's happened :-)
 
 Yeah, this was NTKed some time ago.  The names may have 
 changed but the
 principle is the same.
 

APPLE.COM.IS.THE.CHOICE.OF.ALL.SELF.RESPECTING.TERRORISTS.NET

Anyone spotted any others?

Mike.





Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Neil Ford

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:

  RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
  systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
  doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
  programmers.

  And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
  clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
  them.

Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of
perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still
need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to
drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do
the second 90% of any job :-)

Anyone know one?

Well kinda :-)

The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-)

I need to see thing how things pan out here and on a couple of other 
fronts first. Toys are always a good incentive.

And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy.

Quite happy to consider that, doing the sysadminy / strategy / 
project management type stuff can't code perl for toffee I'm 
afraid.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



RE: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread Bates, Duncan

APPLE.COM.IS.THE.CHOICE.OF.ALL.SELF.RESPECTING.TERRORISTS.NET

Server Name: WHITEHOUSE.GOV.HAS.THE.BEST.TERRORISTS.NET


-- 
Duncan Bates
Developer
Proxicom UK
Tel: 020 7321 3812
Mobile: 07884 336 532
http://www.proxicom.com/



whiteboard pens

2001-01-18 Thread alex


for people who are coming to the tech meeting tonight -- do you have any
whiteboard pens you could bring along?

to avoid unnecessary confusion, list traffic and whiteboard pens, if
whiteboard pen owners could mail me directly offering to bring some, I'll
reply to the first person saying "yes please bring your whiteboard pens
along by all means."

cheers,

alex

-- 
Snack pastries are dramatic when shapes are combined





Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread John

David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
   right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
  
  Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?
 
 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

Hmmm, does sound good though.

John

-- 
:wq



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Neil Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Well I have both The Matrix and MIB with me on DVD and a DVD capable 
 powerbook..
 
 Movie intermission anyone?

I have Deep Purple at the Montreux jazz festival 2000... ;-)

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



RE: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread Mike Chamberlain


 
 APPLE.COM.IS.THE.CHOICE.OF.ALL.SELF.RESPECTING.TERRORISTS.NET
 
 Server Name: WHITEHOUSE.GOV.HAS.THE.BEST.TERRORISTS.NET

TERRORISTS.NET.IS.SO.FUCKING.31338.NET







RE: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread Bates, Duncan

APPLE.COM.IS.THE.CHOICE.OF.ALL.SELF.RESPECTING.TERRORISTS.NET
WHITEHOUSE.GOV.HAS.THE.BEST.TERRORISTS.NET

AMAZON.COM.SHOULD.SELL.SEXTOYSONLINE.COM
SLASHDOT.ORG.SUCKS.COMPARED.TO.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG


-- 
Duncan Bates
Developer
Proxicom UK
Tel: 020 7321 3812
Mobile: 07884 336 532
http://www.proxicom.com/




Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* John ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Hmmm, does sound good though.
 

it all depends what you mean, do you mean a proper consultancy or
a bunch of people getting together to share accounting/marketting?

if its a proper consultancy, you'd have to wear suits, be polite
and be in work for 9 in the morning

if you were a contractor joining it you could expect a 50%+ pay cut

instead of recruiters taking a skim, the running of the company
including advertising, management etc. would all eat some of the cash

also you'd need to focus it by problem areas not by language

having said all of this, if its a later its a good idea

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Richard Clamp

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:41:29AM +, Neil Ford wrote:
 Well I have both The Matrix and MIB with me on DVD and a DVD capable 
 powerbook..
 
 Movie intermission anyone?

Cool, 20 minutes is plenty enough to watch all the good bits in The Matrix.
God bless chapter-seek.

-- 
Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread Robert Shiels

 
SLASHDOT.ORG.SUCKS.COMPARED.TO.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG

jimphillips has one on Microsoft too.

MICROSOFT.COM.IS.NO.MATCH.FOR.THE.UEBER-GEEKS.AT.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG

Hmmm

/Robert





Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread jo walsh


 i am not going to be able to make it tonight, today is my first day
 back at work after some flu like illness. i had hoped to make it 
 tonight but currently feel like matt wrights code,

ditto, except today is the first day of similar flu-like illness :(
sorry i wont be there to do the gracious hostessing thing
and my five minutes of fame will have to wait :/

have  a good one,

jo





Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

"Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 - Original Message -
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25
 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
 
 
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
   David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
  to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
  invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
  consluting on the side, of course.
 
 
 Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen
 consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk,
 and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching
 around for work for you.

Gunther had a lot of experience with this at extropia and I have some
mail somorewhere I'm sure he'd be happy to share (but obviously I'll
ask him). However, they were developing an application rather than
bodyshopping^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H consulting.

If you/we got the likes of Andy *hint* on board then I'd go in at the
high end with "getting it right" type of stuff. 

There are also enough products out there that have perl behind them
that there's plenty of scope for installation/customising.

What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
 anyway?

Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
programmer. And the task.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



?party animals

2001-01-18 Thread Jon Galliers

As I've never met you all in person (hopefully to be rectified on February
1st, can't come tonight as we're boarding the loft..don't ask) I don't know
how big a party animal you all are, however some of you may be interested
that Linkdup/Uploaded are having a party on February 1st at the Strongrooms
Bar EC1 that goes on till 2am; details from their website at
http://weare.preloaded.com .


*
 Jon Galliers   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Programmer Perl/C++/MySQL/DB2/Java
 Design Net http://www.design.net.uk
 Tel: +44(0)870 240 0088
 Fax: +44(0)870 240 0099
*




RE: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Mike Jarvis

Tony Bowden wrote:
 The fact you are recording is "What Billboard said was number one". *That*
 is a fact. Why they decided it was number one isn't the issue.

How about if I put up a website wherein I disclose the fact: "This is what
the object code to commercial app looks like?"

Under (U.S.) IP law, it's pretty much the same thing. ymmv. ianal.

--
mike




Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Tony Bowden

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:03:52AM -0500, Mike Jarvis wrote:
  The fact you are recording is "What Billboard said was number one". *That*
  is a fact. Why they decided it was number one isn't the issue.
 How about if I put up a website wherein I disclose the fact: "This is what
 the object code to commercial app looks like?"

If people can't see a difference here, then let's just leave it to
the lawyers. We'll just go round and round for ages...

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
 i don't want the world i just want your half
-



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Simon Wistow

Dave Cross wrote:
 
 OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the day by stepping in to give 
a 20 min talk - or do I have to talk about Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?


I could give a talk on either Flash stuff (again, although there's not
much else to say ATM that people don't already know) or something on IP
- Longtitude and Latitude.



RE: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 January 2001 11:05
 
 I have Deep Purple at the Montreux jazz festival 2000... ;-)

That all sounds a bit Spinal Tap.

"We hope you like our new direction" :)

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



RE: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Matthew Jones

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:03:52AM -0500, Mike Jarvis wrote:
  The fact you are recording is "What Billboard said was number one".
*That*
  is a fact. Why they decided it was number one isn't the issue.
 How about if I put up a website wherein I disclose the fact: "This is what
 the object code to commercial app looks like?"

Is this relevant at all?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16147.html
"The injunction was granted thanks to new European database laws that
essentially assume data to be copyrightable"

Does that mean things like the Billboard charts? They could certainly try
and demonstrate an adverse effect on their revenues from licensing their
listings...

-- 
matt
"The problem with youth culture and media today is that young people are
given the impression that they actually are doing something, when in fact
they are only needed as participants in a staged marketing event."  -
Wolfgang Tillmans



Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-18 Thread Tony Bowden

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:53:12PM -, Matthew Jones wrote:
 Is this relevant at all?
 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16147.html
 "The injunction was granted thanks to new European database laws that
 essentially assume data to be copyrightable"

Almost certainly. As I say, my legal dealings here were 5 years ago
when it wasn't...

 Does that mean things like the Billboard charts? They could certainly try
 and demonstrate an adverse effect on their revenues from licensing their
 listings...

Well, you're into transatlantic stuff if the site was in the UK, but this
new law would massively complicate things.

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
   beneath it's shining like gold but better rumours of glory
-



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Steve Mynott

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:05
  
  I have Deep Purple at the Montreux jazz festival 2000... ;-)
 
 That all sounds a bit Spinal Tap.
 
 "We hope you like our new direction" :)

Didn't they appear at the Albert Hall with a orchestra in 1970?  Their
early exposure to classical music didn't impro^H^H^H^H^H change their
direction much.

BTW if anyone has the "On the Wings of a Russian Foxbat" 1977 bootleg
on MP3 with the better guitarist than their usual one can they email
it since Messrs Napster and Gnutella have failed me on this one?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction?  fiction, after all,
has to make sense.  -- mark twain 



Re: (OT-ish) whois microsoft.com

2001-01-18 Thread mallum

Netscape has;

NETSCAPE.COM.SHOULD-DUMP.AOL-AND-REHIRE.JWZ.BUT.CHECK-OUT.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG

mallum

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 12:12:19PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
  
 SLASHDOT.ORG.SUCKS.COMPARED.TO.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG
 
 jimphillips has one on Microsoft too.
 
 MICROSOFT.COM.IS.NO.MATCH.FOR.THE.UEBER-GEEKS.AT.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG
 
 Hmmm
 
 /Robert
 
 



RE: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
 
  What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
  anyway?
 
 Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
 programmer. And the task.

Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
"getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



RE: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 January 2001 13:46

 Dave Cross wrote:
  
  OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the 
  day by stepping in to give a 20 min talk - or do I have to 
  talk about Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?
 
 I could give a talk on either Flash stuff (again, although there's not
 much else to say ATM that people don't already know) or 
 something on IP - Longtitude and Latitude.

Either sounds fine to me. You choose. You're on first :)

Dave...


The information contained in this communication is
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of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
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system.



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

Michael



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 

yes, but if it was a proper consultancy youd be expected to write off some
of that occasionally and also maybe have some centralised support

of the course the real cash comes from ongoing support contracts

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:29:20PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
  than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
  if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
  "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 
 When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
 clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
pays!

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
 with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
 to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow

Both, of course :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Natalie Ford

At 11:41 18/01/01, binkyuk wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:54:40 +, Dave told us to:
 
 OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the day by
 stepping in to give a 20 min talk - or do I have to talk about
 Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?
 
Well I have both The Matrix and MIB with me on DVD and a DVD capable
powerbook..

Movie intermission anyone?

...or, after following the conversations on irc, how about you give a 5-10 
minute talk on how *not* to join a startup at the same time they go bust 
and / or the current state of h2g2, or something like that, Neil?  ;-)

Natalie




Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
  with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
  to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow
 
 Both, of course :-)
 

yip, but you have to make a choice

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  
   there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
   business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
   do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
   see it grow
  
  Both, of course :-)
 
 yip, but you have to make a choice

Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
metamorphose into the latter?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 

an initial wage structure/share division for the former may not be
appropriate for the latter, this of course could be changed but you
may run into disagreements at the stage of this change

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: PIMB THC-shirts

2001-01-18 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 17,  4:05pm, Redvers Davies wrote:
 Myself and a couple of friends of mine were talking about this before
 and someone suggested that ingestion in cakes was healthier still and
 more "effective".

Healthier, certainly.  Smoking anything is bad for your respiratory
tract and lungs.  However, there is evidence to suggest that smoking
weed is nothing like as harmful as smoking tobacco.  It's not the tar
or the nicotine in tobacco that gives you lung cancer, but the
radiation...

More effective, yes, because none of the THC is lost to the atmosphere.
However, it takes an hour or so to notice the effects coming on and
when they do, there's no way to stop them.  So you might end up ingesting
twice as much as you planned, which you may (or may not :-) consider
wasteful if half as much would have had the desired effect.

Or so I've been told.  :-)=


A

-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Didn't they appear at the Albert Hall with a orchestra in 1970?  Their
 early exposure to classical music didn't impro^H^H^H^H^H change their
 direction much.

They did it again last year and hauled the orchestra round Europe this
time. 

 BTW if anyone has the "On the Wings of a Russian Foxbat" 1977 bootleg
 on MP3 with the better guitarist than their usual one can they email
 it since Messrs Napster and Gnutella have failed me on this one?

It's been cleaned up and officially released:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B06Y3Z/thehighwaystar0a/


Dave // Debating going to Tokyo to see them in March...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me.

I said "from..."

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: apologies

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:03:39 +, "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Jan 18,  4:57am, Dave Cross wrote:

  OK. So we're now a speaker down. Anyone want to save the day by 
  stepping in to give a 20 min talk - or do I have to talk about 
 Symbol::Approx::Sub _again_?
 
 I can talk all night given half the chance (and appropriate throatal
 lubrication :-)

...and most of us would love to listen to you :)

Simon has already stepped into the breach. Thanks for the offer tho'.

Dave...



RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Leo Lapworth

People (no particular order):

 ==   
 = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
 ==   

 ==   =
 = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
 ==   =

 ===  ===
 = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
 ===  ===

 Out source to other similar companies for:
- design
- mass HTMLing

Money:
Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in.

Open source / clients:
Create projects for open source community (sell to clients
with support). When not assigned to a specific money 
making project or client create next project to OS and 
make money from.

Create client base with support contracts.

Long term@ pimp out to only the best companies.

Location
A big pub in central London.
Top floors: development
Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or 
so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you 
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.

Leo




RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hatworm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Neil Ford

[snip the first bit... all great]

Location
   A big pub in central London.
   Top floors: development
   Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops

Purleese wireless is the only way to go. :-)

   Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.

So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 
 Dave...

I presume if the vast majority of the money is going directly into
people's pockets there won't be much going into things that build the
infrastructure of the company - training and so on.

Also one way to build a business is to create a "product" and build round
that (eg cough spew choke Vignette). Working on this sort of thing
may not result in great income in the short term compared to say chucking
ten people off to Goldman Sachs.

jp



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 People (no particular order):
 
  ==   
  = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
  ==   
 
  ==   =
  = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
  ==   =
 
  ===  ===
  = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
  ===  ===

i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the
pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced.
the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one.
i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't
just have one leg to the stool

 Money:
   Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in.

founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers
and 25% pencilled for VC types

contractors could expect to take a 50 to 75% drop in salary

 Open source / clients:
   Create projects for open source community (sell to clients
   with support). When not assigned to a specific money 
   making project or client create next project to OS and 
   make money from.

agreed!

   Create client base with support contracts.

also create partner arrangements, i can think of at least 3
big companies i maybe could arrange partnerships with, that in some
cases would double the daily rate for consultancy

 Location
snip ;-)

 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
equity surely? ;-)


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Tony Bowden

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
 equity surely? ;-)

Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)

But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you.

FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already
well established and actually have revenue and commitments and
stuff

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
 my Uncle Sol had a skunk farm but the skunks caught cold
-



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Leo Lapworth wrote:
 
 
 Location
 A big pub in central London.
 Top floors: development
 Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
 Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... 

Greg

a contractor in a "quite period"

 I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
 so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
 
 Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.
 
 Leo



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
  equity surely? ;-)
 
 Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)
 
 But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you.
 
 FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already
 well established and actually have revenue and commitments and
 stuff
 

well, this is all getting a bit close to the grain for me, if anyone
wants to discuss the possibilities of a non-perl specialised arena
consultancy feel free to to email me off list, however there may be
nasty NDA's involved


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread James Royan

Neil So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)

I know a few things about setting up and running SMEs.  Happy to sit down
for an hour or so one evening with someone if it would be of assistance.

Unfortunately, I'm far too tied up with current venture to get much more
involved than this.

Regs,

J.
.

Message Central plc Suite K307 Tower Bridge Business Complex 100 Clements
Road London SE16 4DG
Web: www.msgc.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 20 7394 9511 Fax: +44 20
7231 8201
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 -Original Message-
From:   Neil Ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent:   18 January 2001 04:33
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:RE:Consultancy company was  [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red
Hat worm discovered

[snip the first bit... all great]

Location
   A big pub in central London.
   Top floors: development
   Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops

Purleese wireless is the only way to go. :-)

   Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.

So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 * Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Leo Lapworth wrote:
  
  
   Location
   A big pub in central London.
   Top floors: development
   Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
   Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..
 
  What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
  mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
 
 
 nope, they are rewards, rewards are for sucess ;-)

Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-)

 
 --
 Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson


In a bad mailbox incident I lost a couple of mails from BOFH inclined
people. Would y'all mail me again please?

Ta,

Dave

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: PIMB THC-shirts

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 More effective, yes, because none of the THC is lost to the atmosphere.
 However, it takes an hour or so to notice the effects coming on and
 when they do, there's no way to stop them.  So you might end up ingesting
 twice as much as you planned, which you may (or may not :-) consider
 wasteful if half as much would have had the desired effect.

A friend (*ahem*) lost an entire 24hr period at Glastonbury owing to a
mistakenly consuming a 'teenth spilt between two people on a peanut butter
sandwich.

Water pipes/bongs are actually worse than joints for avoiding nasty stuff in
the smoke: THC is more soluble in the water than tar so you end up reducing
the good:bad ratio. There is a paper somewhere on http://www.norml.org/ about
this.

Paul





Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "Leo Lapworth" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
 so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

That's not VC then, that's a "loan". VC is where you heave up a huge chunk of
cash in return for a chunk of company and hope said company doesn't end up
being laughed at and taunted on fuckedcompany.com

Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? It's considered a lot over
here right now :-) But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity
:-(

Anyway, the longer you leave obtaining angel, seed and VC cash and the more
you can generate a demonstrably working revenue model the better. Consider VC
a last resort -- aim rather for alliances and partnerships, or a straight out
acquisition.

Paul






Compiling mod_perl on Debian

2001-01-18 Thread Niklas Nordebo

Hello everybody, I just moved to London from Stockholm, Sweden, so I joined the list.

Anyway, I have a problem I hoped someone might be able to help me with, when trying to 
compile mod_perl statically into Apache on my Debian box I get
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ldb
from the sanity check when Makefile.PL runs Apache's Configure. This doesn't happen if 
I compile Apache standalone.

I have libdb2-dev and libc6-dev installed.

(more stuff:)

Configuring for Apache, Version 1.3.14
 + using installation path layout: Apache (config.layout)
 + activated perl module (modules/perl/libperl.a)
Creating Makefile
Creating Configuration.apaci in src
  + id: mod_perl/1.24_01
  + id: Perl/5.00503 (linux) [perl]
Note (probably harmless): No library found for -lndbm
Note (probably harmless): No library found for -lposix
cd ..; cc  -DLINUX=2 -DMOD_PERL -DUSE_PERL_SSI -Dbool=char -DHAS_BOOL -D_REENTRANT 
-DDEBIAN -I/usr/local/include -DUSE_HSREGEX -DNO_DL_NEEDED `./apaci` -I. 
-I/usr/lib/perl5/5.005/i386-linux/CORE-o helpers/dummy helpers/dummy.c   -lm 
-lcrypt -rdynamic  -L/usr/local/lib 
/usr/lib/perl5/5.005/i386-linux/auto/DynaLoader/DynaLoader.a 
-L/usr/lib/perl5/5.005/i386-linux/CORE -lperl -lnsl -lgdbm -ldbm -ldb -ldl -lm -lc 
-lcrypt
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ldb
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make: *** [dummy] Error 1


-- 
Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 618, further transmissions
  to you by the sender may be stopped at NO COST to you by forwarding this
  e-mail to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=remove
 



Re: Compiling mod_perl on Debian

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

Welcome to London.pm ;-)

From: "Niklas Nordebo" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Anyway, I have a problem I hoped someone might be able to help me with,
when trying to compile mod_perl statically into Apache on my Debian box I get

apt-get install libapache-mod-perl gets you the dynamic version -- is there a
particular advantage to having it statically built?

 /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ldb

$ zcat /usr/share/doc/libdb2/changelog.Debian.gz
db (2:2.7.7-2.2) unstable; urgency=low

  * NMU
  * Don't supply libdb.so.[23] anymore. GLibc will handle the runtime libs
for the now obsolete ones

 -- Ben Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:43:15 -0400

So you might want to check your libc's are up to date. Probably worth taking
this up on debian-users if still no luck here.

Paul







Re: Compiling mod_perl on Debian

2001-01-18 Thread Roger Burton West

On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:28:13AM -0800, Paul Makepeace typed:

apt-get install libapache-mod-perl gets you the dynamic version -- is there a
particular advantage to having it statically built?

Want mod_perl and mod_ssl? Debian stable doesn't do this easily without
recompilation.

R



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
 pays!

not here at 'Redpoint Consulting' there isn't :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 People (no particular order):
 
  ==   
  = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
  ==   
 
  ==   =
  = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
  ==   =
 
  ===  ===
  = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
  ===  ===
 

ooh .. if you have room for an almost acceptable Perl  programmer with a
total inability to turn up on time, and an even worse habit of working
too long, let me know... I'll be in for a bit of that.  If its any
consolation I'm not as crap now as I was 6 months ago .. and a whole lot
less crap than I was a year ago ...

and I know a Security Guru who would probably be up for it as well  ..
and hes a proper one too, I believe his wardrobe has all three shades of
hat :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:

 What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
 mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... 

Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
it as you did writing it in the first place.  And in any case, if you
*need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
management.  Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the
group too.  No need for a whole project mangler though to start with.

As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be
rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start.  That way they
become a motivational tool.  Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated
by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s.
I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag
for the office.  Or some clean jerrycans :-)

* - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get
a PS 2.  When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another
game for it.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Steve Mynott

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at
  success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those
  started by MBAs or middle managers..
  
 
 business sense != project sucess

why not?  I would have thought similar skills were involved in both?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

brook's law:
adding manpower to a late software project makes it later



thoth

2001-01-18 Thread Roger Burton West

For the benefit of those who want to know more about thoth, the network
monitoring system I mentioned just now:

ftp://firedrake.org/thoth/
http://firedrake.org/thoth/

(there's even some documentation!)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] with subject subscribe to join the
development mailing list, current rather quiet...

Mail me privately for a URL of a working thoth installation.

Roger



Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Is a million considered a lot in the UK still?

 Not by people who can add up.

OK, same here then. Having said that, it's amazing how much people can
stretch a few $currency_unit if they *don't* have investment :-)

  But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity

 Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system
 seems to be.  Even in cities.

This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/

The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!

On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Paul





Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
 vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
 (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
 earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!

You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)

 
 On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Trust me, they have much, much worse...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

David Cantrell wrote:
 
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
 
  What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
  mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
 
 Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
 idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
 code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
 it as you did writing it in the first place.  And in any case, if you
 *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
 management.  Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the
 group too.  No need for a whole project mangler though to start with.

I was thinking of my mid afternoon kip, before going down stairs to the
pub!  I was only joking ;-)

Totaly agree with the all nighter bit above.

 
 As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be
 rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start.  That way they
 become a motivational tool.  Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated
 by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s.
 I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag
 for the office.  Or some clean jerrycans :-)
 
 * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get
 a PS 2.  When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another
 game for it.

Ah, now motivational thoery is totally different - a PS2 is not that
motivational for me, and I would imaging alot of people.  What _is_
probably motivational about a PS2 equiped office is the environment that
allows you to play with a PS2.

IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them
confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that
had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well
as Lego.  The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so
that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code).

What people seem to be missing is that you need clients - once you've
got some doing the code is the easy bit.

Greg

Who could do the BOFH / security / perl bit  but does not want to
commute further than his home office

 
 --
 David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/
 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
  vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
  (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
  earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
 
 You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)

Are they not in New York ?

Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital
P.

 
 
  On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...
 
 Trust me, they have much, much worse...

What like americans ?

(present american company excluded)

Greg


 
 --
 Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
 Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
   Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
   -



Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 12:11:23PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system
  seems to be.  Even in cities.
 
 This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/

I know :-)  Although actually, I feel it is at least a bit related.  It
seems that CA tried to copy the de-regulation which was implemented in
various parts of Europe (including the UK) but that they decided to tamper
with a system which demonstrably worked (if it ain't broke don't fix it!),
but worse, they tried to shoe-horn it into a completely different
environment.  The UK has for many years had a fair amount of spare generating
capacity, and there are new power stations being built.  CA did not have any
spare generating capacity of note, and has not built any new power stations.
Duh.

 The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
 vicious weather and earthquakes.

And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others,
just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in
others, just like anywhere else).  But it strikes me as being absurd that I
hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in
.us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe.

  The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
 (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
 earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
 
 On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Nah, you just have their cousins in the baby bells :-)

Actually, I've had no problems with BT engineers in the three years I've
lived here.  My voice line came in just fine and has never stopped working.
Same with the ISDN, and the ADSL line.  Telewest, on the other hand - I
wouldn't trust them to run the hundred yard dash, let alone my comms.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
  Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
  idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
  code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
  it as you did writing it in the first place.
 
 yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
 client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
 just charge em bigtime!
 
 Personally I have done (thinks) about 4 this year ... two of them due to
 sudden arrival of previously unannounced deadline .. (result: badly
 implemented crap code, stress, huge costs and a re write a week later)
 and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I
 didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is
 untouched to date and some of the better code I've written.
 
 There is nothing wrong per-se with working on into the night ... the lack
 of interruption and no pesky phones ringing can be the ideal time to
 engross yourself in the trickiest and most complex of problems ... but
 trying to hack something together whilst knackered is a recipie for
 disaster. My motto: if it feels good, do it.  Code when you feel at your
 most productive, if you don;t think your minds on the job bale out and
 play.  One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do
 hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because
 it was 5:00.
 
  And in any case, if you
  *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
  management.
 
 no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who
 hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just
 when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller
 than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem
 .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :)

Have you done much stuff under a DSDM style - ie. qrite a quick protype
and then iterate on that ? (massive internal rewrites are allowed under
this as it tries to stress the interface / functionality not the
internal implentation)

Greg

 
 I would be VERY interrested in working on a project managed by the XP
 method. It sounds to good to be true, (and I;ve done enough project
 managment to know that it probably is too good to be true) but I shure
 would like to give it a go.
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti
 
 The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
 So I installed Linux!



techmeet aftermath

2001-01-18 Thread alex


Thanks to all for visiting our humble factory.  I hope you all enjoyed it
as much as I.

We have gained a set of whiteboard pens, and a pile of andy wardley's
notes.  Any takers?

The slight downside was a brief invasion by a unshaven fellow clutching a
can of tennants extra.  He asked if he could watch andy wardley talk for a
while (well, he didn't actually know his name afaik), but after a few
minutes I asked him to leave as he was looking around our office in a
worrying way.  I'm pretty sure he didn't pick up anything before I noticed
him there though...

Err, apologies if that person was actually a perl monger...

Anyway, Paul and Philip (the hosts) where very impressed with the
enthusiastic atmosphere, and would be happy for london.pm to come by
again.

A couple of references for my (rather sketchy) talk...

http://slub.org/   - a generative music collaboration between
 ade ward and myself
http://generative.net/ - various things, including a discussion of Data
 Beautification with MIDI::Realtime
http://sound-hack.org/ - various things
http://sound-hack.org/MIDI/Realtime.pm
   - better version than CPAN (sorry)

I am happy to discuss this stuff in greater detail off-list, or in the
generative art mailing list 'eu-gene' at generative.net.

Best,

Alex






Re: thoth

2001-01-18 Thread Mark Rogaski

An entity claiming to be Roger Burton West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: 
: Mail me privately for a URL of a working thoth installation.
: 

That would be c.l.p.m ... unless of course you aren't referring to Tom.

Mark

-- 
Mark Rogaski  | "What in the ding-dong-heckama-doodle
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  hell is that?"
http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo |   -- a farmer in the 1992
__END__   |  movie "Seedpeople"

 PGP signature


Re: thoth

2001-01-18 Thread Philip Newton

Mark Rogaski wrote:
 An entity claiming to be Roger Burton West 
 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 : 
 : Mail me privately for a URL of a working thoth installation.
 
 That would be c.l.p.m ... unless of course you aren't 
 referring to Tom.

I think he doesn't use that appellation any more. BICBW.

Cheers,
Philip



Re: PIMB THC-shirts

2001-01-18 Thread Redvers Davies

 Water pipes/bongs are actually worse than joints for avoiding nasty stuff in
 the smoke: THC is more soluble in the water than tar so you end up reducing

So do people smoke the stuff (as opposed to consumption) for convenience
or maybe the familiarity of the ritual of smoking?