- Original Message -
From: Benjamin Carlyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Microformats Discuss microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom draft
David,
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 04:02 -0500, David Janes -- BlogMatrix wrote
Dojo [1], a popular AJAX library, uses something even more XHTML
unfriendly for its widget inclusion:
div id=... dojoType=DojoWidgetName widgetId=ID
[Attribute=Value]
/div
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://dojotoolkit.org/
On 8/4/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...and develops YAWS
- Google Base data API is more or less the Atom Publishing Protocol.
- This means you can read/write/search
- The GBase data model is just adding key/value pairs to each entry
- Google Base is a store of records/entries with these key/values
- key can come from a predefined list or you can make
Google Base is explicitly trying to do something that Microformats are
not: boil the ocean, or in this particular case, a sea in the ocean.
Google Base silos are basically spreadsheets; each record is a row in
the spreadsheet. How do you model that in Microformats? In fact, the
best/easiest way
And in particular, have a look at XOXO Rest Datatypes [1]. There's
probably more work that could be done here to model typed values (i.e.
12000 meters) amongst other things; maybe you're the right person
;-)
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes
On 8/27/06,
Like this [1]. 20 events, all look sensible.
Regards, et...
David
[1] http://tinyurl.com/fs9sr
On 8/28/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
One (or more, by the time you read this) of the events on this page is
marked
Try fn org instead of fn [1].
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization
On 8/28/06, Gazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Janes mumbled the following on 28/08/2006 11:38:
Like this [1]. 20 events, all look sensible.
Including the hcard name(s
This looks very possible. In particular,
(1) according the article, Yahoo only returns its results in HTML, so
we know HTML is good
(2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML (a description
file about how your results are returned) indicating that the file is
hAtom
(3) parties not
Random thought: there may be some knowledge in this area that's
extractable from LDAP [1][2].
Regards, etc...
David
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
[1] http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_ldap_authentication
[2] http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6266
On 9/3/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How about public-profiles?
Regards, etc...
David
On 9/4/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While I take your point that profiles vs xmdp profiles I confusing,
the notion of a profile can also apply to groups or teams... So
user-profiles would be too specific.
Perhaps we should do more
Why wouldn't it make sense? Comments are structured much the same way
blog posts are. My personal rule of thumb is things that you'd make an
Atom feed for -- and comments certainly fall under this category --
should be worth considering for hAtom if there's a clear HTML
representation.
What
On 9/11/06, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 11 Sep 2006, at 23:17, Stephanie Booth (bunny) wrote:
Does this way of using hatom on comments make sense to you?
It does to me, yes. Although not using two separate hAtom feeds. I'd
just have one with the original post as the first entry in the
Right -- and a uF for expressing that relationship; this gets a little
trickier. As uFs are about codifying existing practices, my
(superficial) look at comment nesting shows that many sites (like
slashdot) using nesting to express relationships, not explicit URI
linking. On the other hand,
If I can then get GMail to dynamically read the hCards from LinkedIn,
I'll be in Web 2.0 e-mail Nirvana.
Regards, etc...
David
On 9/11/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Check it out... as part of their redesign, LinkedIn will be supporting
hcard and hresume:
Comments are nested within entries and hfeed elements can be nested
too. Typically, one doesn't see multiple entries with comments on the
same page.
In usage that I've seen, one would probably use this nesting structure:
* hfeed (for the blog, optional)
** hentry (for the one entry on the page)
I was just feeding the microformats.org home page into my hAtom parser
for a demo and noticed that it doesn't have an updated class on the
date.
I.e. this:
abbr title=2006-09-13T08:55:49September 13th, 2006/abbr
should look like this:
abbr class=updated title=2006-09-13T08:55:49September
Here's a demo screencast [1] -- there's a few issues with the
screencapture tool and my script -- of a tool I've been working on to
analyze microformats on a page and allow you to perform actions on
each microformat.
In particular, I'm looking a hAtom and showing the content (both as
formatted
I didn't do anything weird that I know of. Try VLC [1]. It may be that
I just upgraded to WMP 11 -- maybe it's screwing around with my
codecs.
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
On 9/14/06, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what can I use to play this?
Windows media
I've been in touch with them, offered to help them out, and my
understanding is they're planning to follow the process. Also, one
of the key guys, Chris Heuer is friends with Tantek.
Regards, etc...
David
On 9/14/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We could, but I don't know if it's
or to name it, but besides that, no
biggie.
Chris
On 9/14/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've been in touch with them, offered to help them out, and my
understanding is they're planning to follow the process. Also, one
of the key guys, Chris Heuer is friends with Tantek.
Regards, etc
I'm working on an implementation in Python and I have a couple of
questions that affect the complexity of the implementation.
(1)
Should all microformat parsers be looking for class=include in any
(non-rel) microformat, or is it a universal option that will always be
there?
(2)
Are multiple
I've been updating my Amost Universal Microformat Parser and, in
particular, been looking to support hResume [1]. To test it, I've run
all the samples provided on the web against the AUMFP and posted the
results here [2].
My observations:
- we should recommend that experience text be marked as a
I've done a preliminary pass at putting hListing [4] into the Almost
Universal MF Parser [1]. Here's Edgio results [2] and (much nicer)
Deal Tagger results [3].
Regards, etc...
David
PS. looks like tinyurl is going to roll over soon!
[1] http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/
[2]
,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
On 20/09/2006, at 9:39 AM, David Janes wrote:
Why not reuse rating from hReview [1]. In particular, use 1.0 to
indicate least popular, 5.0 most popular and use the abbr form [2].
Instead of:
li class=-popular
a href=/tags/Web+Standards+Group
Web Standards Group
If IE6 compatibility is the issue, why not do the rating+rel-tag+css
selectors, plus a hack for backwards browsers?
abbr class=value title=4
a rel=tag href=/tags/Web+Standards+Group class=tsize4
Web Standards Group
/a
Where e.g. tsize4 is not part of the semantics but rather a purely
Hi John,
In my mind, the question is if there wasn't an IE issue, how would we
do it? Given that observation, I then see these three points:
- the IE issue will be marginal in 24 months (I hope) because of IE 7
- uFs are mostly about standardized _semantics_ rather than providing
standardized
In as point #2.
Regards, etc...
David
On 9/20/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David,
Perhaps you could add it to the rel-tag-faq?
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq
Thanks,
Tantek
On 9/20/06 12:36 PM, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Somehow this has escaped me
I'm seeing this:
div class=urlhttp://www.3color.org/~kwilson//div
Likewise:
span class=emailspan class=spamprevention
usernamekwilson/span@span class=spamprevention
domain3color.org/span/span
in a vCard [1]. Good. No good? I'm guessing the latter.
Regards, etc...
David
[1]
in a dictionary as the coiner of replacive
On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Either of these should work fine under the hCard spec, and are
completely understandable markups.
On 9/20/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm seeing this:
div class=urlhttp://www.3color.org
Jeez, yes, I think this would be an ideal application for hAtom [1].
Marking up entries like an RSS feed, mutter mutter mutter...
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom
On 9/21/06, Matthew Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
I'll just jump in here: I've worked in finance, treasury, risk
management and banking for the last 10 years. I've only seen CAD used
technically to refer to Canadian dollars and anyone, from a
banking/finance _technical_ perspective, is probably mostly interested
in consuming that form of
Just specifiy an author for the page in an address block and you're set.
Regards, etc...
On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew
Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
Would there be any mileage in a
Fixed -- I've been iterating the code quite a bit. How does it look now ?
http://tinyurl.com/ntorg
On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Just specifiy an author for the page in an address block and you're set
Blogger is changing their template format. No word on hAtom [1]
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/09/02/on-open-letter-to-blogger/
On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I definately vote picking one standard and sticking to it. As with
date formats,
Honestly, exactly right. hAtom works for what you're doing; don't get
over caught up in the meaning of bookmark or whatever. If could
potentially create an RSS/Atom feed for the page, you'll be able to
put hAtom markup on it.
Regards, etc...
David
On 9/22/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
] wrote:
On Sep 21, 2006, at 5:41 AM, David Janes wrote:
OK thanks both. So this section saying that url, email and photo get
special treatment [1] should be consider as additive to the
previous definitions and not replacive [2]
Regards, etc...
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
.
/abbr
Regards, etc...
On 9/22/06, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 22, 2006, at 1:27 PM, David Janes wrote:
AUMFP is correct. It doesn't let abbr be an all purpose content
hider. This trick might work to your satisfacation:
That's not the way other implementations work. Or other
Quite honestly, I'm still mulling this one over. I note:
- I've never seen it in the wild
- something feels off to me about hiding human readable content in an ABBR
- I can think off some places where it would be useful though
I'd be much happier if there was a general rulle across all
I thought I'd just mention a thought that flitted through my head
several months ago. I'm not proposing this at this time as I'd like to
try it in practice first.
Here's the proposal on my blog [1]. The example given is to link
Ryan's trivial hcard on his blog to his more serious hcard on his
Very interesting idea.
Also, I wouldn't mind have author default to something if it
couldn't be found -- I'll probably want to look at Atom in the context
of data feeds to see what they do first.
Regards, etc...
On 9/26/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Ah yes, sorry missed that! Back to bed...
Regards, etc...
On 9/27/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], David
Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Why?
Why what?
The entry-content is X, where X is the HTML content between paired
tags span class=entry-contentX
Just back from a mini-vacation. I'll have a look tomorrow at the AUMFP.
Regards, etc...
On 9/28/06, Ian McKellar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I'm playing with writing a generic microformat parser that'll be able
to parse any format, given some minimal definition. I started with geo
(piece of
Fixed. Y'all can try it by pasting in the text here [1].
For those not heads down in hAtom, the tricky parts in the sample below are:
- markup inside the Q are supposed to be ignored wrt. hAtom elements
- missing entry-title then should trigger the logic outlined below
- multiple entry-content
On 10/4/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Andy Mabbett wrote:
Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the
future. Which set me thinking
This is a good list of use cases. Some of these things are already
covered, at least in part, by existing formats.
the status of that effort?
A couple things that I know of.
- David Janes went off and did a related minimicroformat, the name of
which slips my mind.
- I went off and did a hella lotta drafts and experiments with
alternative approaches.
___
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On 10/5/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What's next?
Just keep working through the process: that is, if you're comfortable
with the examples you've accumlated about how species is used on the
web, brainstorm (which I see you've done), throw together a strawman
uF, then say this
fn seems to basically be the class name to be used where people
think of title. I regret that we didn't use it in hAtom for
entry-title (but I'm not losing sleep over it) -- you can read the
reasoning here [1].
Regards, etc...
David
[1]
This will be an excellent time to mention, for the purposes of FYI to
all, the Atom Threading extensions [1]. Someone else can jump in and
mention The Process.
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt
On 10/11/06, Ashley Kyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear The List,
I'm
Damnit, I was about to coin that one.
On 10/12/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wow. At 1.5MB of documentation, that's pretty much the antithesis of a
microformat.
Holy $h1t! Maybe we should call that one a Macroformat? Hehe. ;)
-Mike
I concur with Ryan's opinion. You never know what application may be
discovered for it in the future (which is the beautiful thing about
powerful ideas).
Regards, etc...
David
On 10/17/06, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 17, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
In message [EMAIL
The initial design-patterns ... and I know because I wrote them ...
were distillations of existing practices. Include breaks this pattern
only slightly, but was a reasonable isolation of a unit of work from
hResume (I believe)
Regards, etc...
David
On 10/19/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], David
Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
The initial design-patterns ... and I know because I wrote them ...
were distillations of existing practices. Include breaks this pattern
only slightly, but was a reasonable isolation of a unit of work from
The process of what moves something from draft to specification is
a little bit of a mystery to most of us, I think...
Regards, etc...
David
On 10/26/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
The 'wiki' page on rel-enclosure:
What do you think of using rel-enclosure to point source data -- for
example, an HTML table that's source created from a CVS, XLS, or
SQL/JSON data source that's URI addressable?
Regards, etc...
On 10/26/06, Kevin Marks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I had a discussion about this in Shelley Powers'
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is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private
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David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http
I'd like to broach the topic of a thing microformat (or design
pattern). I don't believe this is a boiling the ocean type of topic
and I'll outline what I've been thinking about and how it would be
used
(1) This would be a simple container hthing with all the elements
from vCard that would make
discussed before, in which
case, any links to a justification against?)
James
On 14 Nov 2006, at 13:27, David Janes wrote:
I'd like to broach the topic of a thing microformat (or design
pattern). I don't believe this is a boiling the ocean type of topic
and I'll outline what I've been thinking
of hours on the project.
-brian
On 11/16/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Any takers? I'm willing to start putting together an -examples and
-brainstorming page, but I don't want to invest tens of hours in the
project if people think it's semi-stupid or we consider that but then
we
could be
quite powerful, enabling you to easily see that this is a thing, it
is owned by this hcard, it is for sale at this price and these are
several reviews of it. These are the thoughts that tempt me. Although
I'm still torn.
James
On 16 Nov 2006, at 16:36, David Janes wrote:
I certainly
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
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as things take shape?
-James
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-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
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David Janes
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http://www.onamine.com
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, is this ground already being covered by hListing (which seems to
be looking to include some of this info), or would you simply have
hListings of events (hEvent), people (hCard), and things (hItem)?
The latter, but we're data mining hListing/hReview to maximize reuse.
Thanks
-Eric
--
David Janes
Founder
id=link was just left over from the original example.
On 11/17/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], David
Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
a
id=link
Why ID? Why not class?
hreflang=en
type=application/pdf
I wonder how widely used those two are, in real life
-discovery
mechanisms use type=application/rss+xml and application/atom+xml
to recognise XML feeds.
Ben
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David Janes
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in.
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vant m. yak / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http
I'm looking at the schema for hListing [1] and I have a question: is
the item explicitly marked as class=item? It's not clear from the
markup.
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Schema
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http
://microformats.org/wiki/item-formats#Existing_Microformats
[2] http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes
On 11/17/06, Aaron Gustafson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Janes wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm that excited :-) but I definitely think there's a
gap that can be filled (i.e. that hReview/hListing identify
/microformats-discuss
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adoption; additionally, finding
existing behavior would be a challenge, not to mention the limited
semantic usefulness of knowing that something is a thing or item.
What *specific* problem, captured in the wild, is this work looking to solve?
Chris
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http
Sorry, where do we go to actually find example feeds?
Regards, etc...
David
On 11/18/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In case anyone missed it... something to play with and offer ideas for:
http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/11/14/json-html-and-microformats-oh-my
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#Organization_Contact_Info
[2]
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22organization-name.22_Optimization
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suda
http://suda.co.uk
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, i.e.
class=rss or
rel=rss. I didn't see anything.
Do you have a suggestion?
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As a peripheral observer of this discussion, may I note that parsing
within a URI/URL has a precident in rel-tag [1]
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Abstract
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, then the entry author will default
to the nearest in-parent [EMAIL PROTECTED]author
-Ciaran McNulty
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Why should RDFa get to mooch of the reputation that microformats has
developed over the last 24 months? That reputation was developed by a
lot of hard work by a lot of people (and really hard work by a few).
What has RDFa brought to the table?
Like microformats, RDFa wants to carry inline
://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues
-ryan
On Nov 25, 2006, at 12:52 PM, David Janes wrote:
This would be my preferred solution, but it doesn't conform to the Org
Contact Info rule [1].
Regards, etc...
[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info
On 11/25/06, Chris Messina
/class-names
[3] http://microformats.org/wiki/class-design-pattern
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On 10/20/06, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is a just a friendly reminder for everyone to read our mailing
list policies - http://microformats.org/mailinglists-policies/ . The
reason for the reminder is that this list has grown, ema lot/em
and many of the policies are meant to help
On 12/9/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/9/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- no, this is probably a very old example.
2. Are not class names supposed to have a single meaning across _all_
microformats? I remember this from hAtom discussions, but ...
--- yes
On 12/9/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/9/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My recent thinking has been that the following rules may work:
An outer microformat should
- never look for attributes inside nested microformats (particularly
hCard, hCalendar, hAtom and xFolk
On 12/9/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/9/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
3. Is this documented somewhere or is it something that everyone is
supposed to know (or am I just wrong)?
--- is what documented? the fact that property values are the same
across all
- never look for attributes inside BLOCKQUOTE or Q
Why not?
Because their definitions in the HTML spec [1] say that these are for
pulling in data from elsewhere. From this one concludes that it's
likely that this data is not necessarily going to be marked up in a
way consistent with the
On 12/9/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
i still think/feel that excluding embeded microformats inside other
microformats is a bad idea. The whole point of NOT having namespaces
is that the property values that we put into class/rel/rev have the
same consistent meaning across all formats
Cool.
Second question :-): but this isn't explicitly documented anywhere, correct?
Regards, etc...
David
On 12/9/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/9/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Is this a true or false statement? class names should have an
unambiguous meaning across
On 12/9/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/9/06 8:44 AM, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- i thought there was some substantical documentation - maybe it is
not under the topic/name i thought it was/should be.
This page goes into it in some detail:
://microformats.org/ ?
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David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://www.onamine.com
http
On 12/11/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,
Why not use __NOTOC__ ?
Start a wiki page, keep it in edit mode (i.e. don't save) and play
with it. The current practice has its downfalls but seems to work
esthetically well, with the downside that you have to click one
On 12/30/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Using the page at:
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/older.htm
and the 'Almost Universal Microformat Parser':
http://tools.blogmatrix.com/extract/
to extract hCards, the title attributes for country and region are
not
On 1/9/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Based on:
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/tag-test.htm
which includes rel-tag links to both:
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/site/links.htm#breadcrumb
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/club/branches.htm
Any one else going to Cambridge tomorrow for MashupCamp3 [1]?
Regards, etc...
David
[1] http://wiki.mashupcamp.com/index.php/MashupCamp3Logistics
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David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and how do you find
microformats (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example, to find
Tantek's hCard we could search tantek css:vcard. Neatly, this shows
one of the great
On 1/22/07, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 1/22/07, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Last week in Boston we were discussing Pingerati and how do you find
microformats (in general). One passing idea I had was that search
engines should supply a CSS element selector. So for example
to a search query modifier and
not any thing else.
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
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of microformats. There are very few
implementation issues: most programmers, including those at many
search companies, are aware how to break up a space separated list of
words.
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
(or 4
days, depending on where you start counting), it's amazing search
engine companies aren't already retooling.
Does your Mom use Google's site:* selector? Maybe, and you might not
even know about it.
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
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