Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility and Free Will

[Craig, previously] Parfit's argument shows only that a causally inevitable act can be morally wrong, not that the actor is morally responsible for the act. [Steve] What does morally responsible mean to you? Probably the same as for you. In the case of a person being morally responsible for

[MD] DQ as sex appeal of the universe

The below seems to have a familiar sound. *whistles innocently* - - - - - From Wikipedia: The early usage of the concept it in this meaning may be see in a story by Rudyard Kipling: It isn't beauty, so to speak, nor good talk necessarily. It's just 'It'.[1] Elinor Glyn lectured: With 'It'

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to, which we perceive DQ

From Lila's Child: Hugo: In my view, free will is a term that can only be used of self-conscious (self reflective) creatures. Will is a term we may use of any organism- of any autonomous entity- describing the goal involved in autonomy. And free will is the ability to change that goal; the

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to which we perceive DQ

Hi dmb, dmb said: ..., the idea that a causally determined act could count as free will is probably one of the stupidest things I ever heard. Free will is exactly NOT a causally determined will. Steve replied:  Ok, that was my understanding of your position as well. But that means that

Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility

Hi dmb, Craig said: Parfit's argument shows only that a causally inevitable act can be morally wrong, not that the actor is morally responsible for the act. Steve replied: What does morally responsible mean to you? dmb says: Responsibility is not a controversial concept, Steve. Any

Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility and Free Will

Hi Craig, On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 2:32 AM, craig...@comcast.net wrote: [Craig, previously] Parfit's argument shows only that a causally inevitable act can be morally wrong, not that the actor is morally responsible for the act. [Steve] What does morally responsible mean to you? Craig:

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to, which we perceive DQ

Hi Andre, Nice job digging up those quotes and tying them together. Best, Steve On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: From Lila's Child: Hugo: In my view, free will is a term that can only be used of self-conscious (self reflective) creatures. Will

[MD] Free will according to the MOQ

Andre quoted Pirsig on free will in the MOQ (from Lila's Child): Hugo: In my view, free will is a term that can only be used of self-conscious (self reflective) creatures. Will is a term we may use of any organism- of any autonomous entity- describing the goal involved in autonomy. And free

Re: [MD] Free will according to the MOQ

Hi dmb, Pirsig's response: Traditionally, this is the meaning of free will. But the MOQ can argue that free will exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one ascends the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom is so small that it can be said that nature

Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility and Free Will

Steve said to Craig: I don't think he [Parfit] was trying to establish all the requirements of moral responsibility. He was just saying that even under determinism, we would still have enough _freedom_ for moral responsibility. We could have acted differently if we had wanted to even if what

Re: [MD] Free will according to the MOQ

Steve said to dmb: You seemed to have missed the quotes that add something interesting... dmb says: No, I didn't miss those quotes. I merely focused on one particular quote, the one that utterly defeats your position. Naturally, you breezed right past my actual without any apparent

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to which we, perceive DQ

Steve: Nice job digging up those quotes and tying them together. dmb: Thanks, Andre. Nice work, as usual. Andre: Thank you Steve and dmb for your kind words in response to my last post. I had hoped however that it would clarify some issues and perhaps (one could only hope) that it would

Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility and Free Will

Hi dmb, Steve said to Craig: I don't think he [Parfit] was trying to establish all the requirements of moral responsibility. He was just saying that even under determinism, we would still have enough _freedom_ for moral responsibility. We could have acted differently if we had wanted to

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to which we, perceive DQ

Hi Andre, It sounds to me like we are in agreement about how the old free will-determinism issue gets dissolved in the MOQ. Or is there something about my position you see yourself as disagreeing with? Best, Steve On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:

[MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to which we, perceive DQ

Hi There is one step before the choice which is the estimation of the Value of the alternatives to choose between. The choice is usually made of the most prefereable alternative, the one with the highest grade of betterness. This pre-experience is based upon our individual set of preferences

Re: [MD] Value is a Verb

Steve, Andre, Mark, and all Value enthusiasts -- On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote to Steve: Pirsig's response to Bodvar: This is a subtle slip back into subject-object thinking. Values have bee converted to a kind of object in this sentence, and

Re: [MD] Taking Words Seriously

Hi Marsha, Marsha said: But I think of a philosopher as someone who is curious about the nature of Reality, or at least some aspect of Reality, not necessarily someone who has an opinion about everything. Matt: I think I understood that this was your different view, as you glossed as a

Re: [MD] Taking Words Seriously

Hi Dave, The Aphorism: One doesn't _have_ static patterns, one _is_ static patterns. Matt said: I want to deny that we should think about the relationship between the standards and the process on that analogy between static patterns and DQ. I'm not sure yet how best to defend this on

Re: [MD] Moral Responsibility

Hi Ham, Hopefully we are at the crux of our disagreement. Physics, metaphysics follow differing logical rules. The logic for physics (mathematics) is incapable of describing evolution (levels in existence), metaphysics. Pirsig suggests that the template of metaphysics is DQ/SQ. This ennables a

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to, which we perceive DQ

hey Andre, Good stuff, inserted at the perfect moment, thnx.   hope others take note   -R     From: Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to, which we perceive DQ

Re: [MD] Free will according to the MOQ

Steve: If the individual is a figure of speech, then talking about the individual making choices is a figure of speech about a figure of speech. At no point does it begin to make any MOQ sense to say that the individual possesses or does not possess free will. We literally are our value choices.

Re: [MD] Taking Words Seriously

Matt, Regardless of my disinterest in creating a distinction between amateur and professional philosopher, you should probably pursue your project until your curiosity is satisfied. Marsha On Sep 13, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Matt Kundert wrote: Hi Marsha, Marsha said: But I think of a

Re: [MD] Could have acted differently v. the extent to which we perceive DQ

Hi Arlo, I appreciate your response. I especially liked your analogy of having free will in the conventional sense that we say someone has ADD, but I think there is an important possible difference. You said, ADD is an attempt to describe Amy's behavior, often by a series of inquiries into

Re: [MD] Free will according to the MOQ

Hello Steve, On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 7:40 PM, X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Steve: If the individual is a figure of speech, then talking about the individual making choices is a figure of speech about a figure of speech. At no point does it begin to make any MOQ sense to say that the