Re: [neonixie-l] Lighting of only cathode lead wires

[gregebert]

I've tried depoisoning a few of these 6844/5031 tubes with zero success, 
even at high current (20+ mA). They get hot, but wont clean-up. Whatever 
contaminates the surface of the cathode is rather stubborn. Perhaps it's an 
oxide; many of these failing tubes have a black haze inside the tube, which 
I suspect is Iron(II) oxide. There is a lack of oxygen, so the familiar 
Iron(III) oxide wont form.


On Saturday, April 27, 2024 at 1:19:52 PM UTC-7 Leroy Jones wrote:

> Picture of clock built in 2010 that uses NL-6844A tubes.
>
> On Saturday, April 27, 2024 at 1:49:40 PM UTC-4 Leroy Jones wrote:
>
>> Hmm.   This thread somehow got deleted.   But anyway, as I was 
>> saying.The National NL-6844A always tests better and with much more 
>> success than the Burroughs version ever does.
>> These are certainly NOT ideal tubes.  Short life.  No mercury.  But they 
>> do make up for their deficiencies by looking cool while they actually 
>> operate correctly.
>> Especially on a clock that has them mounted on a clear case, and sticking 
>> out the front.-Chuck
>>
>> On Saturday, April 27, 2024 at 12:28:57 PM UTC-4 David wrote:
>>
>>> I have seen this also on these tubes. The 6844A is an early tube design 
>>> that didn't have mercury added to prevent cathode poisoning. I doubt that 
>>> anyone has done recent research on this phenomenon, so we're left with 
>>> conjecture. Here's mine: after the cathode gets poisoned, the plasma has to 
>>> be generated somewhere. That somewhere is the lead wires. Later tubes had 
>>> insulating paint applied to the lead wires to prevent this. It's usually 
>>> white or green. 
>>>
>>>
>>> David Forbes, Tucson AZ 
>>>
>>> > On Apr 26, 2024, at 7:29 PM, Leroy Jones  
>>> wrote: 
>>> > 
>>> >  
>>> > Hello, A while back I was testing a batch of Burroughs 6844A nixie 
>>> tubes. 
>>> > None in the batch worked correctly. Only the cathode lead wires 
>>> glowed, not the 
>>> > digits themselves. I have noticed this repeatedly on Burroughs 6844A 
>>> tubes. 
>>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Anyone want to collaborate on electroluminescent display projects ?

[gregebert]

Here's the current status as of April 16, 2024. The test display has been 
running for a few weeks now at low intensity, using my waveform generator 
(1kHz) and a reverse-wired power transformer. I'm not noticing any 
degradation of intensity yet.

The inverter design has stalled for a bit while I wrap-up another clock 
(uses IEE projection-type displays). SPICE simulations of the inverter are 
showing a lot of ringing, which has been a challenge to get rid of, and 
there is a mysterious asymmetry into the transformer. This is causing 
imbalance, and that results in a net DC current, which is not only wasteful 
but also will cause saturation of the transformer. I'm also trending to use 
a triangular waveform, rather than sinusoidal, because it results in 
constant current (well, at least theoretically...) for the display.

Opto triacs are easier to use than regular ones, so I expect to go with 
those and drive them from a serial chain of shift registers. I standardized 
a serial link for my projects using 10-conductor ribbon cable, using the 
same signals/levels as used by the HV5532 (and similar) drivers. Each 
IEL-0-IV display is 8 segments, so 48 bits will control a 6-character 
display via direct-drive. I wont use, or attempt to use, multiplexing. 
Adding more characters is as simple as adding more serial devices. Right 
now I think I will have 2 displays per board; keeping the PCBs less than 
100mm/side (4 inches) keeps the price way down at PCBWay. A run of 10 
boards is around 14 USD ($5 total for the 10 boards, $9 for shipping).

As far as controlling the serial link, I use a Raspberry Pi Zero W. I'm 
sure any controller will work as long as you use a level-shifter for the 
serial interface.

On Tuesday, April 16, 2024 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-7 Nick Andrews wrote:

> Okay, so after realizing my search parameters were off, I found and bought 
> 10 of the same 'Predator" style EL displays.  Supposed to be here in 5 or 
> so weeks...  So I'll be interested.
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 2:55 AM Michail Wilson  wrote:
>
>> That is the type of burn in I have experienced as well.
>>
>> Not just on the small one you have, but on the various sizes.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Michail Wilson
>>
>> 206-920-6312 <(206)%20920-6312>
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
>> Of *gregebert
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 2, 2024 11:23 AM
>> *To:* neonixie-l 
>> *Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Anyone want to collaborate on 
>> electroluminescent display projects ?
>>
>>  
>>
>> There are some on Ebay right now (I have no affiliation with the seller). 
>> Do a  search for IEL-0. I suggest shopping around for awhile to get the 
>> best price. I'm a bit nervous about the IEL-0-IV displays. After 10 days of 
>> basic testing, my test device has noticeable burning, though I cant confirm 
>> if the luminous output has dropped. I need to build a photometer and do 
>> more testing. Prior to using it, the entire screen was the same color.
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 8:46:06 AM UTC-7 Nick Andrews wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone seen any of these for sale in the last few years?  I'd be 
>> interested in the project if I had some! 
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 5:24 PM gregebert  wrote:
>>
>> Right now it looks like there will be 3 different PCB's: One for the HV 
>> power supply, one for a single I-95, and another for 2-4 IEL-0-IV (I havn't 
>> sized the board yet, but it needs to be less than 4" per side). I use a 
>> modular design approach, and everything is connected with a 10-pin 
>> ribbon-cable serial bus I call IOLINK. So if you are willing to adapt your 
>> favorite controller to the IOLINK interface, which uses 12V signalling (2 
>> inputs, 5 outputs), these boards will be workable for you.
>>
>> On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 7:59:59 AM UTC-7 Keith Moore wrote:
>>
>> I am interested but not much help with the design. I'd love to use my 
>> displays though. 
>>
>> On Thursday, March 14, 2024 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>
>> I'm finally at the point I have time to work on a design for my 
>> Soviet-era electroluminescent displays. I have 2 types, the smaller 
>> IEL-0-IV, and a much larger I-195. Both are the 'alien' style formats, and 
>> will make unusual clocks.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have done some very initial testing on the smaller one, and it appears 
>> to be burning the phosphor after just a few hours of usage. It's not lit 
>> very bright, so I dont know if this is a common burn-in phase, or not. 
>> Documentation is pretty limited, and I've been running 

[neonixie-l] Re: More High Prices

[gregebert]

Well, if people pay $50,000 for a digital image (fancifully called an NFT) 
from Bored Ape Yacht Club, I suppose anything is possible.


At least with the tube you actually get something tangible.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2024 at 10:33:52 AM UTC-7 Mac Doktor wrote:

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/335341009588
>
>
> Is it just me or is $140 pretty steep for a common (and untested) EM84 
> magic eye tube? 
>
> The whole thing strikes me as weird. The description is...creative. He has 
> 16,528 items and most of them are the same price regardless of what they 
> are. Something just doesn't add up.
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> Detective Gregory: “Is there any other point to which you would wish to 
> draw my attention?”
> Sherlock Holmes: “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.”
> Gregory: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.”
> Holmes: “That was the curious incident.” — "Silver Blaze", Sir Arthur 
> Conan-Doyle
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Google Pending Messages

[gregebert]

Any clues to why some messages get flagged as pending, and others don't ? 
This isn't the kind of group that gets into controversial or offensive 
topics, unless perhaps you attempt to glorify modern LEDs.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2024 at 1:12:07 AM UTC-7 Grahame Marsh wrote:

> Hi Y'all
>
> Please be aware that the Google Group system is sending more messages 
> than it has done recently into Pending instead of straight through. It 
> can be 3 or 4 days before the Moderators are notified that there are 
> Pending messages so some of your posts might not appear very quickly.
>
> Grahame
>
> Moderator
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] whats the life of the Burroughs HB-106

[gregebert]

Ever since I got a clearly marked 5031 nixie, I assumed the others with the 
same shape with no visible marking were also 5031's but there apparently 
are other numbers such as 6844 and HB-106.

I too have several dead ones, and I often wondered if they had been 
circulating in Ebay-land as untested devices. I knew the risk when I bought 
them.

I have tried to rehab them, with zero success. The ones that are dark cant 
be coaxed to glow even at 500 volts; others have partially-glowing cathodes 
or glowing only on the bondwires. As best I can tell, the gas is 
compromised. I suspect that since these were early-production devices the 
glass-to-metal seal was not nearly as good as later devices. A few have 
darkened interiors, which is probably sputtered material due to a lack of 
mercury; of those, some still have a slight orange glow.

In hindsight, I should have tried zapping them in a discarded microwave 
oven I found last week, just to see if anything is in there. BTW, there 
were a few things I scrapped from the microwave, but I made sure the deadly 
MOT was recycled.
On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 9:31:49 PM UTC-7 liam bartosiewicz wrote:

> Fairly certain that all HB-106’s are standard life. You could probably get 
> somewhere around 10,000 hours with a “new” one.
>
> > On Apr 5, 2024, at 7:55 PM, David  wrote:
> > 
> > The truly long-life tubes had mercury added. If you see a hazy purple 
> glow when the tube is lit, it's long life. Solid orange is not so long 
> life. 
> > 
> > 
> > David Forbes, Tucson AZ
> > 
> >> On Apr 5, 2024, at 6:45 PM, Jasper nagle  wrote:
> >> 
> >> i picked 9 of these up for $90 $10 a pcs for A clock project, and iv'e 
> tried searching all the data sheets about them the most i can find is one 
> stating long life, but long life in 1955 i would assume wouldn't compare 
> well to like a 1960 one ? 
> > 
> > -- 
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> .
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Re: [neonixie-l] Replacing vintage AC cord

[gregebert]

I've had battles with some of the strain-reliefs in the past. If they dont 
break coming out, they often will when going back in so best to get some 
spares if you can.

I'm not sure who adopted the IEC power connectors first, but they deserve a 
Nobel prize in my opinion.

On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 12:57:00 AM UTC-7 Toby Thain wrote:

> On 2024-04-04 9:55 p.m., Mac Doktor wrote:
> > I bought a Systron-Donner counter from eBay a few months back. Naturally 
> > the cord was chopped off and the fuse cap removed.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm having trouble finding a suitable replacement.  It amounts to three 
> > conductor zip cord. I know I'm not going find the original stuff, at 
> > least not at a price mortals can afford.
>
> Suitable 3 wire cords with North American plug are available at Digikey 
> and Mouser, unless I'm misunderstanding the type you need. I even found 
> a coiled one to replace a similar one on a Tektronix 602 that was 
> wearing out.
>
> --Toby
>
> > 
> > 
> > Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> > "The Mac Doctor"
> > 
> > https://www.astarcloseup.com 
> > 
> > “...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, 
> > it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close 
> > up.”—Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night",/Cosmos/, 1980
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
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> > .
> > To view this discussion on the web, visit 
> > 
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>  
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/BB4D5909-1659-4D85-AD0C-48845479010F%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer
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>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Anyone want to collaborate on electroluminescent display projects ?

[gregebert]

There are some on Ebay right now (I have no affiliation with the seller). 
Do a  search for IEL-0. I suggest shopping around for awhile to get the 
best price. I'm a bit nervous about the IEL-0-IV displays. After 10 days of 
basic testing, my test device has noticeable burning, though I cant confirm 
if the luminous output has dropped. I need to build a photometer and do 
more testing. Prior to using it, the entire screen was the same color.

[image: burned_IEL-0-IV.jpg]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 8:46:06 AM UTC-7 Nick Andrews wrote:

> Has anyone seen any of these for sale in the last few years?  I'd be 
> interested in the project if I had some! 
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 5:24 PM gregebert  wrote:
>
>> Right now it looks like there will be 3 different PCB's: One for the HV 
>> power supply, one for a single I-95, and another for 2-4 IEL-0-IV (I havn't 
>> sized the board yet, but it needs to be less than 4" per side). I use a 
>> modular design approach, and everything is connected with a 10-pin 
>> ribbon-cable serial bus I call IOLINK. So if you are willing to adapt your 
>> favorite controller to the IOLINK interface, which uses 12V signalling (2 
>> inputs, 5 outputs), these boards will be workable for you.
>>
>> On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 7:59:59 AM UTC-7 Keith Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I am interested but not much help with the design. I'd love to use my 
>>> displays though. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 14, 2024 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm finally at the point I have time to work on a design for my 
>>>> Soviet-era electroluminescent displays. I have 2 types, the smaller 
>>>> IEL-0-IV, and a much larger I-195. Both are the 'alien' style formats, and 
>>>> will make unusual clocks.
>>>>
>>>> I have done some very initial testing on the smaller one, and it 
>>>> appears to be burning the phosphor after just a few hours of usage. It's 
>>>> not lit very bright, so I dont know if this is a common burn-in phase, or 
>>>> not. Documentation is pretty limited, and I've been running a 50-page 
>>>> document page-by-page thru google translate; so far nothing has come up 
>>>> regarding burn-in.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone out there is working-on IEL's, or planning-to do so, please 
>>>> chime in so we can start a discussion here.
>>>>
>>>> [image: electrolum.jpg]
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>
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>> .
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Anyone want to collaborate on electroluminescent display projects ?

[gregebert]

Right now it looks like there will be 3 different PCB's: One for the HV 
power supply, one for a single I-95, and another for 2-4 IEL-0-IV (I havn't 
sized the board yet, but it needs to be less than 4" per side). I use a 
modular design approach, and everything is connected with a 10-pin 
ribbon-cable serial bus I call IOLINK. So if you are willing to adapt your 
favorite controller to the IOLINK interface, which uses 12V signalling (2 
inputs, 5 outputs), these boards will be workable for you.

On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 7:59:59 AM UTC-7 Keith Moore wrote:

> I am interested but not much help with the design. I'd love to use my 
> displays though. 
>
> On Thursday, March 14, 2024 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>
>> I'm finally at the point I have time to work on a design for my 
>> Soviet-era electroluminescent displays. I have 2 types, the smaller 
>> IEL-0-IV, and a much larger I-195. Both are the 'alien' style formats, and 
>> will make unusual clocks.
>>
>> I have done some very initial testing on the smaller one, and it appears 
>> to be burning the phosphor after just a few hours of usage. It's not lit 
>> very bright, so I dont know if this is a common burn-in phase, or not. 
>> Documentation is pretty limited, and I've been running a 50-page document 
>> page-by-page thru google translate; so far nothing has come up regarding 
>> burn-in.
>>
>> If anyone out there is working-on IEL's, or planning-to do so, please 
>> chime in so we can start a discussion here.
>>
>> [image: electrolum.jpg]
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Anyone want to collaborate on electroluminescent display projects ?

[gregebert]

I've been running some SPICE simulations on potential candidates for the HV 
supply, and I'm close to having something I can run from my function 
generator. I've done enough basic testing on one display with sinusoidal 
and triangular waveforms running thru a power transformer to confirm the 
display works. I'll put this onto a small PCB and hopefully test it out in 
the next few months. I'm aiming for operating around 1Khz, and the 
iron-core power transformer I'm using right now seems fine up to around 
5Khz before it starts to poop-out.

I havn't finalized how to drive the individual segments; most likely I will 
use small triacs. I've used opto-triacs many times before, so I'll probably 
stick with them unless I find "regular" triacs for a lot cheaper. My only 
concern is the leakage current of the triacs might cause the segments to 
glow, as they only need a few uA. That's another experiment I need to do 
after I have the power supply nailed down.

On Thursday, March 14, 2024 at 8:54:51 PM UTC-7 Paul Andrew Lafranchise 
wrote:

> I've put together a 4 and 6 digit clock using IEL-0-VIs. I haven't noticed 
> any burn-in but I don't run them very often. I've attached my notes. Happy 
> to answer any questions. This was one of my first electronic/clock projects 
> so I'm sure I've made some obvious mistakes along the way. :-) 
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
> . 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQKusSVB4Jw
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SvZFT0Ix38PpcBTwWniY5Ow4kFfds62K/view?usp=drive_link
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 10:43 AM gregebert  wrote:
>
>> I'm finally at the point I have time to work on a design for my 
>> Soviet-era electroluminescent displays. I have 2 types, the smaller 
>> IEL-0-IV, and a much larger I-195. Both are the 'alien' style formats, and 
>> will make unusual clocks.
>>
>> I have done some very initial testing on the smaller one, and it appears 
>> to be burning the phosphor after just a few hours of usage. It's not lit 
>> very bright, so I dont know if this is a common burn-in phase, or not. 
>> Documentation is pretty limited, and I've been running a 50-page document 
>> page-by-page thru google translate; so far nothing has come up regarding 
>> burn-in.
>>
>> If anyone out there is working-on IEL's, or planning-to do so, please 
>> chime in so we can start a discussion here.
>>
>> [image: electrolum.jpg]
>>
>> -- 
>>
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>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Who simulates or protoypes their designs before doing a PCB ?

[gregebert]

I tried LTSpice 10-12 years ago because it has models of many of the IC's 
from Linear Tech; a lot of other IC manufacturers dont supply models at 
all, or only with an NDA. It's a great tool, but I generally dont use it 
because it's PC-based, rather than Linux, which I use for my other design 
work. I may give it another try if I mount a Linux disk onto the PC (so far 
I have not, largely out of security concerns; my PC is more likely to get 
hacked than my Linux machines, and having a pathway between them makes 
things less-secure).

The other reason I used LTSpice was that I could run sims during work 
breaks; my employer's firewall blocked remote access to my home network. 
But, that problem has been solved because I'm now retired.

Netlisting out of your schematic-capture tool, rather than from LTSpice, 
and into your simulator (SPICE, Verilog, etc) is a good way to catch 
design-entry errors that can sneak into your PCB layout otherwise 
undetected.

On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 5:37:00 AM UTC-7 Grahame Marsh wrote:

> I am a chemical engineer and when I retired I was working on the safe 
> landfall of north sea oil and gas. I have little formal electronics 
> training and I'm mostly self taught That said
>
>  I do a mixed bag of experiments using dead insect on a copper sided PCB, 
> a plug in board, a literal breadboard (mostly for valves), strip board when 
> I want something semi-permanent or for a long running experiment and 
> simulations using LTSpice. I tend to do what I think is best at the time 
> for the tests I want to perform. I do enjoy building things, this is the 
> hobby after all.
>
> My use of LTSpice is limited to analogue stuff and some power supply 
> simulations. I've not had too much success with designs that use inductors 
> in particular. But I spent some time simulating various CRT deflection 
> amplifier designs before moving to a PCB and I was not disappointed by the 
> results. I know I should simulate more before heating up the soldering 
> iron...
>
> For PCB design I own an unlimited copy of Eagle 7.7.0 which was the last 
> version before they went subscription based. It is getting old now (like 
> me) and I have looked at some of the all-in-one design software but Eagle 
> does what I want (schematic to Gerbers), I know how to use it and I have a 
> large component library that I have developed myself. So I don't feel a 
> need to go anywhere else: I am unconvinced that the facilities in any new 
> software would be repaid the time I would spend learning how to use it. But 
> my prototype PCB designs often have problems: they tend not to be 
> "electrical" but "mechanical" in nature. Components are too close or I goof 
> with the silkscreen such as I label things incorrectly - this is just 
> incompetence I know.
>
> Going back to the simulation question - I started with QUCS and then moved 
> to LTSpice - should I look to use another simulator? What should I look at 
> beyond LTSpice?
>
>  Keep in mind my limited knowledge of electronics and the need to 
> self-teach!
>
> Grahame
>
> On 30/03/2024 12:03, Dekatron42 wrote:
>
> I sometimes use LTSpuce for analogie simulations where many different 
> positive and negative voltages are present as my skills ate inferior when 
> it comes to electronics, I especially did this when figuring out how to 
> design coupling stages and driving stages for the A-201 Polyatron some 
> years back. 
>
> /Martin
>
> On Tuesday 26 March 2024 at 21:20:07 UTC+1 gregebert wrote:
>
>> I've heard of Proteus and Falstad, but never looked into them because I'm 
>> entrenched in my current suite of free CAD tools and so far I havn't seen 
>> anything that will nudge me out. The biggest fear I have is that a tool 
>> will get abandoned, so having them installed on my local system is a must. 
>> So far, the gEDA tools haven't been abandoned yet, but it's been a few 
>> months since the latest update. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 26, 2024 at 12:45:02 AM UTC-7 Tom Nolan wrote:
>>
>>> I've been using Proteus for many years.  I'm sure I've saved lots of 
>>> money on wasted boards.  Also often see better ways of doing things while 
>>> simulating.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 11:41 AM gregebert  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just curious to know how many of you run logic and/or analog 
>>>> simulations on your designs before doing a PCB, or if you do any 
>>>> prototyping. 
>>>>
>>>> Since I'm a longtime designer of IC's, I rely heavily on simulations: 
>>>> ngspice for the analog sections, verilog for the entire PCB (logic, FPGA 
>>>> if 
>>>> a

[neonixie-l] Re: Improper Storage

[gregebert]

I store most of my tubes in metal ammo boxes, with plenty of bubble wrap.

IN-18's have the softest pins in my collection

On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 11:29:49 AM UTC-7 Dekatron42 wrote:

> They sometimes came like that when sold years ago here where I live as 
> they were just delivered in sealed plastic bags with no extra protection on 
> the pins and no box. Other manufacturers just stuck a piece of styrofoam on 
> the pins which fell off during shipping as they weren’t secured properly.
>
> At least the pins looks free from rust.
>
> /Martin
> On Friday 29 March 2024 at 17:57:43 UTC+1 Mac Doktor wrote:
>
>> Check out the bent pins:
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/156143847734
>>
>>
>> I need to get some boxes for the loose stuff myself. Any suggestions?
>>
>> I do have the requisite label printer...
>>
>>
>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>
>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>
>> “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't 
>> go away.”–Philip K. Dick, "I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon"
>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Calc!

[gregebert]

OwwwI'm really tempted because the seller is just a few streets away 
from me.

On Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 3:51:49 PM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:

> Not my listing, but good price and damn cool:
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/315246877632?mkcid=16=1=711-127632-2357-0=0d_9FTHmTPa=2047675=PHyjOWfuSxi_ver=artemis=COPY
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Who simulates or protoypes their designs before doing a PCB ?

[gregebert]

I've heard of Proteus and Falstad, but never looked into them because I'm 
entrenched in my current suite of free CAD tools and so far I havn't seen 
anything that will nudge me out. The biggest fear I have is that a tool 
will get abandoned, so having them installed on my local system is a must. 
So far, the gEDA tools haven't been abandoned yet, but it's been a few 
months since the latest update. 

On Tuesday, March 26, 2024 at 12:45:02 AM UTC-7 Tom Nolan wrote:

> I've been using Proteus for many years.  I'm sure I've saved lots of money 
> on wasted boards.  Also often see better ways of doing things while 
> simulating.
>
> Tom
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 11:41 AM gregebert  wrote:
>
>> Just curious to know how many of you run logic and/or analog simulations 
>> on your designs before doing a PCB, or if you do any prototyping.
>>
>> Since I'm a longtime designer of IC's, I rely heavily on simulations: 
>> ngspice for the analog sections, verilog for the entire PCB (logic, FPGA if 
>> any, and analog). Once that is done, I go straight to PCBs with no 
>> prototyping. So far, I've only had 1 project that required any 'blue wires' 
>> to fix a design error.
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>>  
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/acf7f9a1-2cf2-4997-9f21-9ae30c929960n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Who simulates or protoypes their designs before doing a PCB ?

[gregebert]

Just curious to know how many of you run logic and/or analog simulations on 
your designs before doing a PCB, or if you do any prototyping.

Since I'm a longtime designer of IC's, I rely heavily on simulations: 
ngspice for the analog sections, verilog for the entire PCB (logic, FPGA if 
any, and analog). Once that is done, I go straight to PCBs with no 
prototyping. So far, I've only had 1 project that required any 'blue wires' 
to fix a design error.

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Re: [neonixie-l] When a "Quick and Simple" project is neither quick nor simple

[gregebert]

Wow!  That was literally one hell of an endeavor.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2024 at 9:17:57 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> I know the feeling. Things can spiral out of control.
> Many years ago I came into some similar red 8x8 LED bricks for a price 
> that seemed too good to be true. Yup, it was. They were very very dim.
> You can read about the TV set they ended up in, SatanVision, here.
> SatanVision LED Television <http://www.cathodecorner.com/satanvision/>
> cathodecorner.com <http://www.cathodecorner.com/satanvision/>
> [image: favicon.ico] <http://www.cathodecorner.com/satanvision/> 
> <http://www.cathodecorner.com/satanvision/>
> These projects need to be built, if only to teach their builders a lesson.
>
>
>
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ
>
> On Mar 11, 2024, at 10:51 PM, gregebert  wrote:
>
> I'm sure we've all been thru this before: You see an opportunity to make 
> a new clock or other gizmo, and the displays are so cheap you cant resist. 
> What could go wrong 
>
>
> In my case, it was 8x8 bi-color LED arrays...for 86 cents each. LEDs are 
> pretty easy to multiplex (imagine if it was direct-drive129 pins ?? 
> Yikes). So I literally bought a brick of them, 24 total, last summer and 
> thought I could knock this project out pretty quick.
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Flicker in Neons used as colons

[gregebert]

I have a large clock with about 300 NE-2 bulbs that I built in 2013. Most 
of the bulbs glow normally, but about 4 or 5 have a slight flicker and have 
done that for many years. I also have 2 dead ones I need to replace (yeah, 
that's what I said 10 years ago...).

So from what I've seen it's not common and it's not a sign of imminent 
death.

On Saturday, March 2, 2024 at 7:49:04 AM UTC-8 Robert wrote:

> I noticed this on a number of clocks, sometimes within months, none have 
> subsequently failed though
>
> How common is this?
>
> No issues with the Daibor colons although they are a different beast
>
>
> Rob

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: EleksTubeIPS replacement firmware

[gregebert]

Crypto prices should be easy to displayisn't that just a random number  
??  ;-]


On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-8 Alan Tan wrote:

> This would be perfect if it can display crypto prices with the ability to 
> select a set of coins and currency :)
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 8:00 PM Paul Andrews  wrote:
>
>> Hi Nick. I’ve fixed the problem Richard d was having, so it’s Ok to 
>> update to the latest version on the web site.
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2024, at 11:02 PM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi Paul, I'm running the version prior to the latest and I've noticed on 
>> two occasions the displays have been blank, the clock portal is still 
>> responsive, but no display on the OLEDsa restart fixes it.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 8:36 AM Paul Andrews  wrote:
>>
>>> Richard ran in to an issue with the latest firmware (it was continuously 
>>> connecting to and disconnecting from wifi), so I'm curious if anyone else 
>>> has tried it and what the results are. For him downgrading to the previous 
>>> version worked. Naturally I have not experienced this issue myself, but am 
>>> just wondering whether to pull it from my web site or not.
>>> On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 12:48:07 PM UTC-5 Richard Scales 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Many thanks for this - installation was a breeze, all looking lovely.
  - Richard

 On Wednesday 21 February 2024 at 02:10:25 UTC Paul Andrews wrote:

> Last release for a while, barring the odd bug fix. Available at the 
> usual place . 
> This is the release notes:
>
>
>- Added a default clock face that includes colons, am, pm and 
>empty background.
>- Added an additional time display mode that uses four digits, a 
>flashing colon and a display of today's weather.
>- Changed the initial configuration to use this clock face and 
>display the four-digit clock with weather.
>- The default weather icons have also changed to *monochrome*. 
>These icons can be drawn against the blank background and the color 
> can be 
>adjusted to match the color of the clock face (via the *Weather*
> page).
>- Where the GUI allows you to adjust colors the controls indicate 
>what will happen as you adjust the color
>- There is an additional color control that both displays the 
>current color and provides an alternate way to modify it.
>- The GUI is responsive to the state of the clock - it will hide 
>controls that aren't used for the current clock state.
>- The clock can now display BMP files that have 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 or 
>24 bits per pixel. batch_convert_images.py has been modified to 
> produce 
>files with these various bit depths.
>
> This is a piccie:
>
> [image: original.jpg]
>
> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 2:39:34 PM UTC-5 Paul Andrews wrote:
>
>>
>> Tell me more about all this. I would like to provide access to a 
>> movement sensor, so I’ve ordered a aqara motion sensor and a sonoff 
>> zigbee 
>> dongle. I’m a little confused about the options from there on though. 
>> e.g. 
>> ESPHome, zigbee2mqtt, HA etc. It seems like just polling an mqtt broker 
>> would be easiest from the perspective of getting data from the sensor 
>> but I 
>> would like this to be as general as possible given the memory 
>> restrictions 
>> that I have in the clock. Any guidance would be gratefully received.
>> On Saturday, January 27, 2024 at 10:38:55 AM UTC-5 Benoit Tourret 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I also like esp web tools, this is a great piece of art !!!
>>> I am using the version used on Home Assistant, called EspHome 
>>> . this is an esp32, 8266, rp2040 "os" used 
>>> with simple yaml configuration files.
>>> I use it with success for many sensors and displays in my home, and 
>>> I try to use it on my new clock: B-7971/eight equipped with 
>>> SmartSockets.
>>> up to now I can display time / date and internal + external 
>>> temperature. I wish I could display message from HomeAssistant...
>>>
>>>
>>> Le samedi 27 janvier 2024 à 02:33:28 UTC+1, Paul Andrews a écrit :
>>>
 I recently did a search to see if EleksMaker had updated the 
 firmware for the EleksTubeIPS clock so that it could use the WiFi 
 connectivity that the ESP32 has. Well, they hadn't, but now *I* 
 have - though I'm not the first. Note that they released a *v2* of 
 this clock that does have WiFi connectivity, so this firmware is for 
 the 
 original *v1* clocks. I went a bit crazy with it: It syncs with 
 NTP, has a web-based GUI, you can upload new clock faces from the GUI, 
 you 
 can configure it to display 

Re: [neonixie-l] Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room

[gregebert]

No problem; amazing what you can do with 500nm.

Since they actually are UV LEDs, you may want to tweak the software so they 
can be turned off after a few seconds if your clock is direct-drive. If 
it's multiplexed, you probably need the UV on continuously in the dark 
(would be very informative to run an experiment here to find out).


On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 9:53:17 PM UTC-8 Jeff Walton wrote:

> Hi Greg, 
>
> The LEDs were 385nM, not 885nM.  
>
> Clearly the LEDs were UV.  I initially thought the 365nM would be more 
> effective but they were not.  The 365nM parts might have also been less 
> desirable from a safety standpoint and were also quite a bit more 
> expensive.  The 405nM UV LEDs are less expensive and more plentiful but 
> seem to have more visible light spill. 
>
> I wish that I could edit the original post, but no such luck!
>
> Jeff 
>
> ---- Original message 
> From: gregebert  
> Date: 2/19/24 10:56 PM (GMT-06:00) 
> To: neonixie-l  
> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room 
>
> 885-890nm ? That's infrared. If the LEDs are always-on, then I'm glad 
> you're using IR instead of UV because it's much less harmful (perhaps 
> harmless ?) to materials and humans/pets, etc.
>
> BTW, those are really interesting tubes. I dont think I've ever seen tubes 
> with a solid/opaque anode.
>
> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 5:19:12 PM UTC-8 Jeff Walton wrote:
>
>> I posted this a couple months ago regarding the MG-17G display tubes that 
>> wouldn’t fire reliably in the dark.  The final resolution for it was to 
>> mount some 885-890nM UV LED’s under the tubes.  A completely updated 
>> display board with LEDs driven from a fixed supply and a transistor on an 
>> LDR so that they LEDs only turn on in a darkened room.  This 885nM 
>> wavelength seemed to work better than the 865mM and was less visible than 
>> the 905nM LEDs.  I wasn’t trying for a visible underlighting effect on the 
>> tubes, so they are being driven at about 2mA so that there is sufficient 
>> light without excessive glow.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The clock is a Richard Scales design and this is the only one (so far) 
>> with the “keep alive” LEDs.  The tubes do not have a keep alive cathode, so 
>> this method works.  Otherwise, any single segment or decimal point would 
>> not fire reliably.  Now the tubes light dependably.  Thanks to Richard for 
>> the new board and a lot of back and forth to get this working right!
>>
>>  
>>
>> The original PCB:
>>
>>  
>>
>> The new PCB:
>>
>>  
>>
>> The display in operation:
>>
>>  
>>
>> The case in Place with LEDs on:
>>
>>  
>>
>> The finished clock:
>>
>>  
>>
>> Once we got past the issues with dark operation, the clock performs very 
>> well!
>>
>>  
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Jeff Walton *
>> *--*
>>
>>
>> jwalt...@gmail.com
>> jwalt...@msn.com 
>>  (952) 943-2064  Home
>> (612) 865-5560  Cell
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
>> Of *Jeff Walton
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2023 8:44 PM
>> *To:* neonixie-l 
>> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room
>>
>>  
>>
>> I've recently come across a situation where I have some tubes in a clock 
>> that are being directly driven and are having trouble starting when the 
>> room is darkened but light right up when a room light is turned on.  These 
>> particular tubes were probably intended for use in a calculator.  They are 
>> seven segment neon MG-17G tubes.  Once the tubes have any of the segments 
>> lit, there is really no issue with the performance.  It's when the tubes go 
>> completely dark if a space is used while scrolling a message or lighting a 
>> dash on and off to emulate a colon.  I'm wondering if others have found any 
>> particular tricks to help convince tubes to light up.  There is no 
>> "baselighting" and the HV is ~172v.  I'm considering increasing the HV by 
>> 10-15v but don't want to over drive the tubes.  Short of putting a 
>> radioactive source in the vicinity, are there other things that anyone has 
>> had any luck with?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this g

Re: [neonixie-l] Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room

[gregebert]

885-890nm ? That's infrared. If the LEDs are always-on, then I'm glad 
you're using IR instead of UV because it's much less harmful (perhaps 
harmless ?) to materials and humans/pets, etc.

BTW, those are really interesting tubes. I dont think I've ever seen tubes 
with a solid/opaque anode.

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 5:19:12 PM UTC-8 Jeff Walton wrote:

> I posted this a couple months ago regarding the MG-17G display tubes that 
> wouldn’t fire reliably in the dark.  The final resolution for it was to 
> mount some 885-890nM UV LED’s under the tubes.  A completely updated 
> display board with LEDs driven from a fixed supply and a transistor on an 
> LDR so that they LEDs only turn on in a darkened room.  This 885nM 
> wavelength seemed to work better than the 865mM and was less visible than 
> the 905nM LEDs.  I wasn’t trying for a visible underlighting effect on the 
> tubes, so they are being driven at about 2mA so that there is sufficient 
> light without excessive glow.
>
>  
>
> The clock is a Richard Scales design and this is the only one (so far) 
> with the “keep alive” LEDs.  The tubes do not have a keep alive cathode, so 
> this method works.  Otherwise, any single segment or decimal point would 
> not fire reliably.  Now the tubes light dependably.  Thanks to Richard for 
> the new board and a lot of back and forth to get this working right!
>
>  
>
> The original PCB:
>
>  
>
> The new PCB:
>
>  
>
> The display in operation:
>
>  
>
> The case in Place with LEDs on:
>
>  
>
> The finished clock:
>
>  
>
> Once we got past the issues with dark operation, the clock performs very 
> well!
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *Jeff Walton *
> *--*
>
>
> jwalt...@gmail.com
> jwalt...@msn.com 
>  (952) 943-2064  Home
> (612) 865-5560  Cell
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
> Of *Jeff Walton
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2023 8:44 PM
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room
>
>  
>
> I've recently come across a situation where I have some tubes in a clock 
> that are being directly driven and are having trouble starting when the 
> room is darkened but light right up when a room light is turned on.  These 
> particular tubes were probably intended for use in a calculator.  They are 
> seven segment neon MG-17G tubes.  Once the tubes have any of the segments 
> lit, there is really no issue with the performance.  It's when the tubes go 
> completely dark if a space is used while scrolling a message or lighting a 
> dash on and off to emulate a colon.  I'm wondering if others have found any 
> particular tricks to help convince tubes to light up.  There is no 
> "baselighting" and the HV is ~172v.  I'm considering increasing the HV by 
> 10-15v but don't want to over drive the tubes.  Short of putting a 
> radioactive source in the vicinity, are there other things that anyone has 
> had any luck with?
>
>  
>
> Jeff
>
> -- 
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "neonixie-l" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
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>  
> 
> .
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Trouble Issue Changing MOD-SIX Lumina WiFi

[gregebert]

I had a similar problem with a different WiFi device, in this case it was a 
wireless camera. When I got my new WiFi router from my new ISP, I set the 
SSID and password to be the same as the previous router, so that it would 
be a "seamless" transition. Well, for most WiFi devices (laptops, phones, 
tablets), that was true. But for some odd reason, the camera did not 
connect to my new router, even after multiple reboots/power cycling of the 
new router and the camera.

After the camera was shut-down for a few weeks, then powered-up, for some 
unexplained reason it linked-up with the new WiFi router. I have no 
explanation why, and it's frustrating because I was ready to do some 
low-level debugging.

On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 4:55:06 PM UTC-8 Jon D. wrote:

> I am changing ISPs.  In trying to changeover my MOD-SIX Lumina WiFi from 
> an existing WiFi from the old router to a new and different WiFi router, my 
> procedure is NOT working.  Both the prior (soon to be off) WiFi and new 
> WiFi are on and up.  
>
> I can see the MOD-SIX Lumina web server on the WiFi IP it says it is on 
> (the old router).  When I try to change the WiFi to the new SSID and PW via 
> the Lumina online web server, it shows the new WiFi SSID as an option, it 
> takes the SSID and PW input for the new WiFi router, and nothing happens.  
>
> I also tried doing this next to the MOD-SIX Lumina using my phone, but my 
> phone shows the MOD-SIX "network" as "disconnected".  Something is amiss.
>
> Is there a trick to doing this ??
>
> Jon J.
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Reaches for popcorn....

[gregebert]

Probably a good thing I'm retired and on fixed-income now, otherwise I 
might be cranking on a 6-tube clock with CD47's. Those things are real 
monsters.

On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 5:04:54 AM UTC-8 Richard Scales wrote:

> I managed to resist - despite the almost overwhelming hoarding instinct!
>  - Richard
>
> On Monday 5 February 2024 at 12:47:32 UTC Paul Andrews wrote:
>
>> Yeah. He could easily have got more I think. Possibly they were sold off 
>> eBay, He posted on Nixie Tube Artists Facebook group before listing them.
>>
>> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:38:54 PM UTC-5 Audrey wrote:
>>
>>> Someone did the buy it now for $1650 for the CD47 listing, jeez...
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 7:25 PM Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>>>
 https://www.ebay.com/itm/176223472746

 Fugly tubes anyone? I kid (sort of...)..

 Super, super rare. Don't see these at auction often, not my listing!

 Cheers

 Nick

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>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Recommendations for a Nixie tester/cathode de-poisoner?

[gregebert]

I wouldn't build  a separate depoisoner; just build-in to your clocks.

I've had very few issues with IN-18 poisoning. If your tubes have been 
sitting around unpowered for years, they shouldn't be poisoned and should 
be ready-to-use. My IN-18 clock runs about 16 hours per day, and at night 
it runs a 1-hour depoisoning routine that cycles thru the unused digits at 
a rate of once persecond. Tubes that display 0-9 (such as unit seconds) are 
left off, because they get uniformly used during the day; tubes that cycle 
0 thru 5, such as tens-seconds and tens-minutes, are cycled 6-9. The 
remaining 10 tubes ( hours, month, day, year) are cycled 0-9 because they 
are essentially static.

You would think the year tubes would have poisoning problems, but they 
dont, so the 1-hour cycling seems to be enough. I dont run them at elevated 
current for depoisoning. The most-troublesome tube  is for the unit months, 
and it can take a few days at the beginning of certain months to fully 
clean-up.

I've never seen a 5092 show signs of poisoning; they are outstanding tubes. 
They are used in my first nixie clock, run 24/7, and have no depoisoning 
algorithm.

My 7971 clock runs a 24/7 depoisoning algorithm when the display is idle 
(based on a PIR sensor), and runs 1 segment of 1 tube for about 0.3 
seconds, cycling thru all 15 segments and all 8 tubes repeatedly. Never saw 
even a hint of poisoning.

On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 3:25:36 PM UTC-8 J.C. Wren wrote:

> Greetings.  It's been a long time since I've participated in the 
> neonixie-l group. Having retired and having free time on my hands, it's 
> time to do something with the stash of tubes I've been sitting on for 
> years.  My intention is to put those tubes in a few clocks I'll design, but 
> before I do, I'd like to go through and test them all. 
>
> What's the latest and greatest Nixie tester that supports cathode 
> de-poisoning? I've seen a couple on eBay that seemed a little more basic 
> than I'd like, and the one from nixietester.com that's no longer 
> available. I'm not particular if it's a kit or fully assembled. It would be 
> nice if it has a smart de-poisoning algorithm, such as the one described 
> for the bi-quinary tubes by Mark Smith. In a perfect world, it would 
> datalog the current and voltage for each segment.
>
> The tube models I'd like to test are IN-18, ZM-1040, NL-840, 1970-0009, 
> B-5092, B-7971, and NL-5859CS. The first three are the critical ones, as 
> they're my favorite tubes :)
>
> Any and all recommendations appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
> --jc
>
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Multiplexing Displays

[gregebert]

>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, 2 November 2023 at 13:32:57 UTC Richard Scales wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> @Mike, many thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll work through that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  - Richard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, 2 November 2023 at 12:20:53 UTC Mike Mitchell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My most recent Nixie project uses ZM1032 tubes.  They are a 9-pin 
>>>>>>>> tube, with five cathode pins and two anodes.  I'm using direct-drive 
>>>>>>>> on all 
>>>>>>>> the cathodes, but skimp on the tens-of-hours digit where I only drive 
>>>>>>>> three 
>>>>>>>> cathodes instead of all five.  I'm using four SN75468 darlington 
>>>>>>>> arrays to 
>>>>>>>> drive the cathodes and two opto-isolators to drive the anodes, 
>>>>>>>> multiplexing 
>>>>>>>> the anodes as all evens and all odds.
>>>>>>>> I'm using a Teensy 4.1 processor to control everything, though I 
>>>>>>>> could have used an ESP32.  I just wanted something with a lot of pins 
>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>> handle driving the 28 cathodes.  I'm not using a timing interrupt at 
>>>>>>>> all. 
>>>>>>>> In the main loop I use the built-in arduino "micros()" call to keep 
>>>>>>>> track 
>>>>>>>> of the time and compare it to the time of the next event.  I use a 
>>>>>>>> state 
>>>>>>>> variable to keep track of what to do next.  Here's some pseudo code:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if (long)(micros() - timeNextDisp) >= 0 {
>>>>>>>>   switch(dispstate) {
>>>>>>>> case DISP_DELAY_EVEN:
>>>>>>>>   timeNextDisp = micros() + 200
>>>>>>>>   turn off all anodes, turn on all cathodes
>>>>>>>>   dispstate = DISP_EVEN
>>>>>>>>   break;
>>>>>>>> case DISP_EVEN:
>>>>>>>>   timeNextDisp = micros() + disp_even_time
>>>>>>>>   turn off all cathodes
>>>>>>>>   turn on appropriate cathodes
>>>>>>>>   turn on even anode
>>>>>>>>   dispstate = DISP_DELAY_ODD
>>>>>>>>   /* split work between even/odd anodes */
>>>>>>>>   read PIR
>>>>>>>>   read GPS
>>>>>>>>   break;
>>>>>>>> case DISP_DELAY_ODD:
>>>>>>>>   timeNextDisp = micros() + 200
>>>>>>>>   turn off all anodes, turn on all cathodes
>>>>>>>>   dispstate = DISP_EVEN
>>>>>>>>   break;
>>>>>>>> case DISP_ODD:
>>>>>>>>   timeNextDisp = micros() + disp_odd_time
>>>>>>>>   turn off all cathodes
>>>>>>>>   turn on appropriate cathodes
>>>>>>>>   turn on odd anode
>>>>>>>>   dispstate = DISP_DELAY_EVEN
>>>>>>>>   /* split work between even/odd anodes */
>>>>>>>>   read RTC
>>>>>>>>   read ADC
>>>>>>>>   calculate time display values
>>>>>>>>   break;
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my case the even digits are behind a screen electrode which 
>>>>>>>> blocks their light.  I keep the even digits on for about twice as long 
>>>>>>>> as 
>>>>>>>> the odd digits to even out the brightness.  I could have increased the 
>>>>>>>> even 
>>>>>>>> digit's current by reducing the even's anode resistor, but I decided 
>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>> keep the current the same for even/odd and just increase the "on" 
>>>>>>>> time.  My 
>>>>>>>> timings are roughly 10.1ms on for even, 0.2 ms for dead time, 5

Re: [neonixie-l] Flip Disc Clock and Controller

[gregebert]

Great job on the mechanical section, Marcin. These look like 
production-quality items, not something that was 3D-printed in a rush.

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8 Mac Doktor wrote:

> On Dec 19, 2023, at 3:50 PM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Shaun, Marcin's projects are always fun and interesting.
>
>
> Oh no, more money to Poland! He's already taken me for plenty.
>
> How's the Euro this week? My timing was good the last time around.
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> "It gets calls when nothing else works"—W. Eugene "Doc" Scott, 
> PhD, explaining somewhat facetiously why a "TV preacher" was smoking a 
> cigar. ('80s)
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room

[gregebert]

I've never had problems with tubes failing to ignite, perhaps because I use 
higher-than-minimum supply voltages, typically around +200VDC. My first 
clock uses 340V.

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 1:46:25 PM UTC-8 Jeff Walton wrote:

> Give me the glow, Nick!
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Helping Nixie Tubes Fire in a Darkened Room

[gregebert]

UV light source, such as from an LED ? 

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 6:43:48 PM UTC-8 Jeff Walton wrote:

> I've recently come across a situation where I have some tubes in a clock 
> that are being directly driven and are having trouble starting when the 
> room is darkened but light right up when a room light is turned on.  These 
> particular tubes were probably intended for use in a calculator.  They are 
> seven segment neon MG-17G tubes.  Once the tubes have any of the segments 
> lit, there is really no issue with the performance.  It's when the tubes go 
> completely dark if a space is used while scrolling a message or lighting a 
> dash on and off to emulate a colon.  I'm wondering if others have found any 
> particular tricks to help convince tubes to light up.  There is no 
> "baselighting" and the HV is ~172v.  I'm considering increasing the HV by 
> 10-15v but don't want to over drive the tubes.  Short of putting a 
> radioactive source in the vicinity, are there other things that anyone has 
> had any luck with?
>
> Jeff
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Scope Clock with 3LO1i

[gregebert]

I have 12 of these tubes for a future project, so I am very interested in 
seeing this work. Do you have any details which pin numbers on the 3L01I 
are connected to the circuit ? I think the voltage for focusing needs to be 
adjusted.

Does the size or shape of the "dot" change when R43 or R44 are varied ?

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 2:49:47 PM UTC-8 Max DN wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I managed to successfully build a scope clock almost entirely based on 
> Cathode Corner design using CRT 3RP1A.
>
> I happen to have a 3LO1i (I know it only lasts for 1000 hours...) and I 
> tried to modify the voltage doublers to use my circuit with this CRT but 
> I'm not too sure about the correct voltages. At the moment I have:
> Grid: -480V; HTR2: -380V; HTR1: -384V; HTR1-HRT2: 6.3VDC; CATH: -384V; A1: 
> -248V; A2: +200V
>
> However I cannot get a small green dot, only a wide green shade, picture 
> attached.
> I'm sure I'm doing something wrong with the voltage divider. Any 
> suggestions please?
>
> Thank you,
> Max
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: It lives!

[gregebert]

Nice!  How far away from Denver are you located ? I wonder if the signal 
strength is an issue. And if you're a time zealot, being 2000 miles away 
means your time will be about 10msec late due to propagation delays. 
Doggone it, radio signals and fiberoptics are so annoyingly slow



On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:29:14 PM UTC-8 Terry S wrote:

> After sitting dormant for more than a year, I decided to take a 3rd look 
> at my Jeff Thomas WWVB clock, the one that uses the huge Z568M tubes. At 
> some point the WWVB clock module fell off a window ledge and would never 
> lock onto the radio station after that. 
>
> I had dug into it earlier and never found a fault -- it just wouldn't 
> lock. But recently I bought a decent magnifier for my workbench, and today 
> I took it apart again. Still didn't find a definitive cause for the 
> failure, but under magnification, I went thru the board and re-soldered all 
> my connections as well as some of the factory solder joints. I wasn't at 
> all confident that I'd made any improvements.
>
> Put it all back together and within an hour, the clock had locked onto 
> WWVB and is working perfectly. I must've touched the right solder 
> joint![image: 
> 20231107_182327.jpg]
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] SP-252 Seeking drawings

[gregebert]

Make sure the holes for the display pins are larger than minimum; I made my 
own footprint for the SP-151 and it was difficult to get the pins fully 
aligned when trying to solder it in. Larger holes makes it much easier to 
insert the display for soldering.

Also beware of the *glasshole*, as I call it. It's the fill-tip when the 
display gets gassed-up, and you need to make the PCB hole large enough to 
accommodate slight manufacturing variances in diameter and location. I 
think I used a 5mm hole, and keep traces spaced away as much as possible in 
case you need to make the hole larger. I didn't have any glasshole  
problems on my boards.

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 9:35:11 AM UTC-8 Christian Riise Wagner 
wrote:

> Can't help you with better drawings, but I can recommend 3D-printing a 
> small piece with the holes at the planned locations to verify the fit 
> before sending off the board for production. I've used this technique 
> myself a couple of times.
> søndag den 5. november 2023 kl. 16.12.59 UTC+1 skrev Dekatron42:
>
>> Have you asked Dieter if he has a better scan that he can share?
>>
>> /Martin
>>
>> On Sunday, 5 November 2023 at 05:30:53 UTC+1 Richard Scales wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Benoit but I need actual data to make a footprint to use in 
>>> PCB design application.
>>>
>>> I think I'm mostly there but was really seeking a better picture so I 
>>> can confirm the accuracy of the supplied numbers and to which pins they 
>>> apply - some of the ones buried in the centre of the display are not so 
>>> clearly linked to the numbers at the side.
>>>  - Richard
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 14:37:27 UTC Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>>
 try to find 0.5 mm inner diameter pipe, 10cm long, fit all the pins, 
 pour some silicone, you should have a good representation of the socket... 
 if you didn't forgot to add some wax or similar to unmold the silicon.
 the more parallel your pipes will be, the more accurate your print will 
 be.
 for a good print, the end of the pins is not important, the most 
 important is the place they have at the beginning, the nearest to the 
 display. without sacrifying a display; I don't see any other way to have a 
 good measurement.

 Le samedi 4 novembre 2023 à 10:04:19 UTC+1, Richard Scales a écrit :

> Hello, there are indeed a few the line up - it's the ones that don't 
> that worry me the most!
>  - RIchard
>
>
> On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 08:54:44 UTC Benoit Tourret wrote:
>
>> Hello Richard,
>>
>> have a look on the SP-351, 
>>
>> https://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/data/datasheets/SP-351_SP-352-drawing-01.jpg
>> [image: SP-351_SP-352-drawing-01.jpg]
>> not the same number of digit, but some of the pins should be 
>> identical...
>> On my SP-356, there is 0 aligned pins on a diagonal way. only in 
>> horizontal.
>>
>> Le samedi 4 novembre 2023 à 07:31:29 UTC+1, Richard Scales a écrit :
>>
>>> I used to so that but it relies on all the pins being straight and 
>>> for this particular display - there are 30+ pins in a very small space 
>>> - 
>>> the more accurate the better - especially when it finally comes to 
>>> plugging 
>>> the things in!
>>> [image: TTPicture.JPG][image: PPpicture.JPG]
>>>
>>> Perhaps the differences are so subtle it's not worth worrying about. 
>>> It's like staring at constellations! This group on the left seems a 
>>> little 
>>> out of alignment when compared with the image from Sperry, it's 
>>> counterpart 
>>> in the image for the character on the right looks more like my chart - 
>>> yet 
>>> - from the data I have logged - the chart shows similar groupings for 
>>> left 
>>> and right - is their image wrong ? is their data wrong?
>>>
>>> [image: DDpicture.JPG]
>>>
>>> When daylight comes I'll get eyes on the physical display though I 
>>> fear at my age - that may be the least helpful method!
>>>
>>> - Richard
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 06:09:25 UTC Audrey wrote:
>>>
 You could scan the bottom of one using a scanner and convert to 
 inches/mm using the DPI.

 On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 2:04 AM Richard Scales  
 wrote:

> I'm looking for any details of the pinout of the Sperry / Beckman 
> SP-252 Multi Segment display which are any better than the one that I 
> found 
> over at tube-tester.com:
> https://tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/data/SP-252/sp-252.htm
>
> I'm making a footprint and need to get the pin positions as 
> accurate as possible. My usual process for this is to copy the pin 
> positions into a spreadsheet and make a scattergram which should 
> represent 
> the pin positions. 
>
> This allows me to spot any 

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Multiplexing Displays

[gregebert]

Where it all leads to, I think, is that you no longer need to do custom 
logic design, and you can skip the need for certain ICs such as realtime 
clocks, by switching to a software-based design, whether it's RasPi, 
Arduino, or any other embedded controller.

It's gotten so "bad" that I rarely need to use a scope or logic analyzer to 
hunt down a bug. Several years ago I literally logged-in remotely to the 
RasPi controlling my NIMO clock and did quite a bit of software development 
and debug from thousands of miles away.

Even now, I'm too lazy to get out of my chair, and go out into the chilly 
garage to work on my Pi+FPGA board. Instead, I will write a new test and 
run/debug logic simulations rather than push new (untested) code onto the 
FPGA to see if it works.

On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 9:23:25 PM UTC-7 Richard Scales wrote:

> Dual Core Processors - now my head really hurts - I mean - I love the idea 
> but don't think my programming skills are ever going to stretch that far!
> Just woke early (03.13) - still full of Covid and had a wrestles thinking 
> session on this during which I reminded myself of all the success that I 
> have had with B-7971/ZM1350 Smart sockets - can you see where this might be 
> going?
>  - Richard
>
>
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 16:29:32 UTC Craig Garnett wrote:
>
>> I'm using a Pico in my project, I run the tube driving routine on one 
>> core and everything else on the rest so it doesn't suffer from slowdowns.
>> I've had to introduce a delay to slow it down to a 1ms refresh!
>>
>> Craig
>> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 15:47:33 UTC gregebert wrote:
>>
>>> Multiplexing might not be possible in certain software environments. 
>>> Several years ago I switched to Linux-based Raspberry Pi systems in my 
>>> projects, and with the unpredictable overhead of Linux I cant rely on the 
>>> CPU being available every millisecond to update the display. Instead of 
>>> using Arduino or a custom OS, I add an FPGA or CPLD to handle the time- 
>>> critical tasks.
>>>
>>> Just by coincidence, I'm putting the final touches on the software and 
>>> RTL code for a board I recently had fabbed to do this. I know it's 
>>> blasphemy, but the first project using this is LED-based...I got a bunch of 
>>> large 8x8 red/green LED arrays for just under 1 USD apiece and the need a 
>>> multiplexed driver. Dont worry, there are several nixie and nixie-ish 
>>> projects in the pipeline that will use this board.
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: raspi_fpga.JPG]
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 8:19:48 AM UTC-7 Richard Scales wrote:
>>>
>>>> @Paul - I have no idea of the sense of scale and the relative times 
>>>> taken. If I were to hang another HV driver on the chain with associated 
>>>> electronics to switch the HV, is there going to be enough time to do the 
>>>> following:
>>>>
>>>> Set the bits for the segments required- I add this step just in case 
>>>> any settling time might be be required
>>>> Set the bits for the segments required and the anode(s) on
>>>> Wait for 400us (typical on time for the panaplex segments I have in mind
>>>> Set the digits and anode(s) off again
>>>> Loop to the next set of digits
>>>>
>>>> With 12 individual anodes - there would be 12 passes - one for each 
>>>> anode that needed to be switched on
>>>> If I used 2 drivers (using 3 x 16 bits for cathodes, I could use bits 
>>>> from the remaining 16 to control the anodes. Thus there would be only 3 
>>>> passes.
>>>>
>>>> Please stop me when I've gone off the scent (still mid-covid) :-(
>>>>
>>>> In Summary:
>>>> Using the HV55xx for cathodes AND anodes
>>>> Given i want 12 characters:
>>>> with 1 driver I have 16 segments and 16 spare for the 12 anodes - easy 
>>>> but slowest
>>>> with 2 drivers I have 3 lots of 16 segments and then group the displays 
>>>> into lumps of 4 (12 characters/3) and still have 16 bits to control the 
>>>> anodes, of which there will now only be 3)
>>>>
>>>> Am I anywhere near close with the driver split and the pseudocode for 
>>>> the ISR?
>>>> I was thinking that there should be some uS delays either before and/or 
>>>> after lighting the segments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 15:01:20 UTC Richard Scales wrote

[neonixie-l] Re: Driving Z570m tubes

[gregebert]

I'm speculating that in order to get the higher current for multiplexed 
operation, the increased voltage was enough to coax a bondwire into 
glowing. I have a few 5031 nixies that are so worn-out that only the 
bondwires glow.

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 1:43:57 PM UTC-7 Greg P wrote:

> Interesting.  
>
> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 2:27:50 PM UTC-4 Craig Garnett wrote:
>
>> The directly driven tube is just 2mA and that doesn't light the pins.
>> If I swap the tubes then it stays with the multiplexed tube.
>>
>> On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 14:58:31 UTC Greg P wrote:
>>
>>> How much current are you using in a directly driven tube?  I’ve had the 
>>> same issue with the pins lighting up with as little as 1mA on the Z570M 
>>> tubes.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 10:31:57 AM UTC-4 Craig Garnett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Increasing the HT gave me 10mA and looks pretty good but is this an 
>>>> issue in the photo?
>>>> It only occurs in the multiplexed tube.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 18:13:19 UTC+1 Craig Garnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks gregebert,
>>>>> I'll have a play with the HT voltage and report back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 16:33:12 UTC+1 gregebert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You can run nixie tubes at much higher voltages if you wish, it does 
>>>>>> no harm as long as you increase the series resistor to keep the current 
>>>>>> within spec. For example, my first nixie clock runs the B5092 tubes from 
>>>>>> a 
>>>>>> +340V supply, and I used a larger resistor (75K I think) to get the 
>>>>>> optimal 
>>>>>> 2.2mA current. Running at higher voltage gives you more design margin, 
>>>>>> but 
>>>>>> it does waste more energy as heat. Generally my HV supplies run between 
>>>>>> +200 and +220VDC; seems like every clock I make ends-up with a different 
>>>>>> power supply design. So far, I've designed and built nixie clocks with 
>>>>>> B5092, B6091, B7971, IN-18, and RZ568m tubes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would bump your supply up to +200V, and adjust the resistor to get 
>>>>>> 8mA of peak current (6:1 multiplexing). That will give plenty of voltage 
>>>>>> margin as the tubes age.  From the photo, 8mA looks nice. I recommend 
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> you view your tube as you vary the supply voltage to get currents 
>>>>>> between 
>>>>>> 5mA and 12mA just so you can see the effect of current on brightness. 
>>>>>> You 
>>>>>> should see that once the tube is lit "normally", increasing the current 
>>>>>> doesn't make as much of a change visually.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dont run my tubes multiplexed for a variety of reasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:38:06 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks  gregebert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My HT is a 12V module and is adjustable but the tube spec says 170V 
>>>>>>> so I left it at that.
>>>>>>> Are you saying that it's safe to increase the HT to get maybe 10mA?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 05:06:34 UTC+1 gregebert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My concern is that over time as the tubes age your HV supply 
>>>>>>>> voltage might be too low to ensure proper ionization. If it's not 
>>>>>>>> adjustable, you can boost it with a series DC supply such as a 
>>>>>>>> wall-wart 
>>>>>>>> transformer or a small isolated DCDC converter. Anything from +12 to 
>>>>>>>> +24 
>>>>>>>> should work fine, and the current is pretty low (12mA).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once you get the HV supply resolved, you will be able to get more 
>>>>>>>> current thru the tubes. BUT..you may want to stay with 8mA. From 
>>>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>>> photo, the tubes glow nicely. 

[neonixie-l] Re: Driving Z570m tubes

[gregebert]

You can run nixie tubes at much higher voltages if you wish, it does no 
harm as long as you increase the series resistor to keep the current within 
spec. For example, my first nixie clock runs the B5092 tubes from a +340V 
supply, and I used a larger resistor (75K I think) to get the optimal 2.2mA 
current. Running at higher voltage gives you more design margin, but it 
does waste more energy as heat. Generally my HV supplies run between +200 
and +220VDC; seems like every clock I make ends-up with a different power 
supply design. So far, I've designed and built nixie clocks with B5092, 
B6091, B7971, IN-18, and RZ568m tubes.

I would bump your supply up to +200V, and adjust the resistor to get 8mA of 
peak current (6:1 multiplexing). That will give plenty of voltage margin as 
the tubes age.  From the photo, 8mA looks nice. I recommend that you view 
your tube as you vary the supply voltage to get currents between 5mA and 
12mA just so you can see the effect of current on brightness. You should 
see that once the tube is lit "normally", increasing the current doesn't 
make as much of a change visually.

I dont run my tubes multiplexed for a variety of reasons.

On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 1:38:06 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:

> Thanks  gregebert
>
> My HT is a 12V module and is adjustable but the tube spec says 170V so I 
> left it at that.
> Are you saying that it's safe to increase the HT to get maybe 10mA?
>
> Craig
>
> On Friday, 27 October 2023 at 05:06:34 UTC+1 gregebert wrote:
>
>> My concern is that over time as the tubes age your HV supply voltage 
>> might be too low to ensure proper ionization. If it's not adjustable, you 
>> can boost it with a series DC supply such as a wall-wart transformer or a 
>> small isolated DCDC converter. Anything from +12 to +24 should work fine, 
>> and the current is pretty low (12mA).
>>
>> Once you get the HV supply resolved, you will be able to get more current 
>> thru the tubes. BUT..you may want to stay with 8mA. From the photo, the 
>> tubes glow nicely. Tube wearout is an exponential function of current, so 
>> staying at the lower currents is better for longer lifetime. At some point, 
>> the current could be too low and you might see cathode poisoning, but 
>> that's reversible. My gut feeling is that 8mA of pulsed current should be 
>> fine.
>>
>> So, are you using rectified AC-mains as your DC supply ? No worries, I've 
>> done that on several clocks and it can be done safely with proper circuit 
>> design.
>>
>> On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:28:18 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:
>>
>>> The ongoing project of mine is coming on nicely but I need some 
>>> reassurance with the way I'm driving the Z570s.
>>>
>>> There are two banks of 6 multiplexed tubes, from what I see from the 
>>> datasheet these should run at 2ma static or up to 12ma as a 1 in 6 
>>> multiplex but that is using google to translate from the datasheet's German.
>>>
>>> The problem is that even with a 1K anode resistor I can't quite get 8mA 
>>> from a 170V supply.
>>> The photo shows two tubes, the left is static at 2mA and the right is 
>>> multiplexed at just under 8mA with a 1mS on time from a 170V supply and 1K 
>>> anode resistor..
>>>
>>> Is this ok or could I do it a better way?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Craig
>>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Driving Z570m tubes

[gregebert]

My concern is that over time as the tubes age your HV supply voltage might 
be too low to ensure proper ionization. If it's not adjustable, you can 
boost it with a series DC supply such as a wall-wart transformer or a small 
isolated DCDC converter. Anything from +12 to +24 should work fine, and the 
current is pretty low (12mA).

Once you get the HV supply resolved, you will be able to get more current 
thru the tubes. BUT..you may want to stay with 8mA. From the photo, the 
tubes glow nicely. Tube wearout is an exponential function of current, so 
staying at the lower currents is better for longer lifetime. At some point, 
the current could be too low and you might see cathode poisoning, but 
that's reversible. My gut feeling is that 8mA of pulsed current should be 
fine.

So, are you using rectified AC-mains as your DC supply ? No worries, I've 
done that on several clocks and it can be done safely with proper circuit 
design.

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:28:18 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:

> The ongoing project of mine is coming on nicely but I need some 
> reassurance with the way I'm driving the Z570s.
>
> There are two banks of 6 multiplexed tubes, from what I see from the 
> datasheet these should run at 2ma static or up to 12ma as a 1 in 6 
> multiplex but that is using google to translate from the datasheet's German.
>
> The problem is that even with a 1K anode resistor I can't quite get 8mA 
> from a 170V supply.
> The photo shows two tubes, the left is static at 2mA and the right is 
> multiplexed at just under 8mA with a 1mS on time from a 170V supply and 1K 
> anode resistor..
>
> Is this ok or could I do it a better way?
>
> Thanks
> Craig
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: SP-431 panaplex displays, looking for opinions on whether to desolder from module

[gregebert]

NICE FIND !!! 

  Based on the size-comparison with the DIP ICs/resistors, these look like 
large displaysmaybe 2 inches tall ? If they really are that big then 
you definitely want to make a gizmo, probably a clock, with these. It looks 
like they are direct-drive, and since the IC's appear to be socketed you 
might be able to remove them and do some individual segment testing to see 
how healthy the displays are before you start the process of 
reverse-engineering or redesigning a new board.


On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 7:03:05 AM UTC-7 leo oel wrote:

>
> Hello
> I made a "Clock" on a similar one, only I have the model SP-494 and SP-492
> https://twitter.com/leoloel/status/1662535750393495552
> a few photos
> понедельник, 23 октября 2023 г. в 16:43:29 UTC+3, Adam Piórko: 
>
>> It looks like VFD displays. If the "plus" is lit, the module seems to be 
>> functioning properly. If you enjoy reverse engineering, you can try to make 
>> a clock from this module. Two things need to be discovered.
>>
>>1. How to send a digit? If it's a counter, it might be challenging. 
>>Incrementing by +1 might be too slow, and digit changes will be visible.
>>2. It's unknown if there's a reset to zero (reset function) - if not, 
>>you'll have to add up to 99. 
>>
>> You can make a 24-hour clock out of it. There's no "AM/PM" - unless you 
>> add it on the side or skip it.
>>
>>
>> niedziela, 22 października 2023 o 13:47:29 UTC+2 ZY napisał(a):
>>
>>> Pictures attached
>>>
>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: An odd, but interesting observation of a weak B7971 tube

[gregebert]

None of my 7971's has aged enough for the segments to get flaky; my clock 
went into operation in 2017. Knocking on wood.

I've seen 2 types of incomplete segment/numeral illumination. On my 
IN-18's, it's cathode poisoning for the months-digit and that clears-up 
within a few days of the new month. Obviously my depoisoning algorithm 
isn't perfect, yet oddly enough the years digits dont show any poisoning so 
there is some factor here with the tube. BTW, it's a 14-tube clock using 
MM-DD- HH:MM:SS format.

The other incomplete illumination appears to be end-of-life for the tube, 
because no amount of voltage or current has been able to fix the tube. You 
get what you pay for when you buy used nixies online; many are OK, some are 
not.

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 8:22:05 AM UTC-7 Rob B wrote:

> When I was a kid [~50 yrs ago], I had several power strips with NE-2 
> indicators, where the indicator starting flicker and then eventually 
> failed.  I noticed that when sunlight hit the NE-2s, they lit more solidly: 
> flickering converted to solid, and off converted to flickering.  I always 
> assumed it was the energy from the sun's photons that was adding just 
> enough joules to the equation to push failing bulbs back over their 
> ionization threshold.  Same effect, probably?
>
> ...R
>
> On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 12:26:27 PM UTC-5 Jim KO5V wrote:
>
>> I have a B7971 that doesn't want to light up - the ends of some segments 
>> will glow,  but none will illuminate along their entire length. I have had 
>> tubes in the past that were probably a bit gassy, and they cleaned up after 
>> running for a few minutes to a few hours.
>>
>> So, I put it into the "10 second" position of my Mod 6 clock, and ran it 
>> over night with no improvement. However after I had been up an hour or so, 
>> I noticed that the tube's segments were lighting up along about 3/4 of 
>> their lengths, and also that the low morning sun was shining on the clock. 
>> This state lasted for as long as the sunlight was on the tube - sometime 
>> after light moved off of the clock, the tube went back to it's wounded 
>> state. 
>>
>> This morning I watched as the sunlight moved toward the clock, and as 
>> soon as the light hit the clock, the tube immediately recovered, and 
>> performed like it did yesterday. However, that state lasted for about 3-1/2 
>> hours after the sunlight moved away. I then shined a flashlight on the 
>> tube, and it recovered as long as the light was there. 
>>
>> I guess this is some kind of photo-voltaic effect. I have a bit of 
>> education in basic physics (for engineering), and this baffles me - but 
>> it's cool!
>>
>> I have a reading lamp that puts out a full spectrum, so I will put that 
>> on the clock today and see what happens. I may also set up a test to run 
>> the tube at a bit higher voltage (180-ish V). It may never recover 
>> completely, but I think this is a fun exercise. 
>>
>> Anyway, and ideas are welcome. I may not be able to save the tube, but I 
>> might actually learn something.  Thanks.  Jim
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] An odd, but interesting observation of a weak B7971 tube

[gregebert]

My first nixie clock with 5092 tubes has been running since 2011. I use 
+340VDC for the anodes, and of course the anode resistors are appropriately 
increased to give the optimum 2.2mA of current.

So, why did I choose 340VDC when the mains here in the US are 120V RMS ? 
This clock has no transformer, so either I would use approx +170VDC from 
rectifying the line directly and risk being too close to the minimum 
voltage, or just use a voltage-doubler and deal with the slightly higher 
wasted energy.

On Sunday, October 8, 2023 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-7 Audrey wrote:

> I thought I had heard/read that lower voltage was better, though a cursory 
> search suggests that the rate of sputtering is nearly directly proportional 
> to current, so that makes sense, the only reason aside from arcing that I 
> could think of would be making the internal wires glow
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023, 3:52 PM liam bartosiewicz  
> wrote:
>
>> Another note about firing voltage is that in general, using higher 
>> voltages for nixies, ie. >200V increases lifespan, assuming the proper 
>> anode resistor is used.
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 11:13 AM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>>
>> I've noticed a few 7971's needing a couple of hours to fully illuminate 
>> after which they're apparently very happy in the long term if in operation. 
>> Is this sign of a very small leak or something else? I'm not sure what to 
>> make of the 'gassy' term to be honestwere 7971's doped with Hg?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2023, at 10:42, Paul Andrews  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I’ve had some of these tubes that require a higher than normal voltage to 
>> even trigger. Most people drive nixies at 170V, but this can be a marginal 
>> trigger voltage for some tubes and completely insufficient for others such 
>> as the GR10G https://www.nixies.us/bwg_gallery/gr10g/
>>
>> Shining light on a tube ionizes the gas inside, the brighter the light, 
>> the more ions. Tubes used in dark environments can take longer to light up. 
>> Once they are lit, the number of free ions in the gas is usually enough to 
>> keep it going. Several approaches were used to circumvent this. Some tubes 
>> have an extra cathode driven with a very low current that is always on. 
>> Some tubes were doped with Krypton 85, a radioactive gas, e.g. 
>> https://www.nixies.us/bwg_gallery/122p224/
>> On Sunday, October 8, 2023 at 12:13:47 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>
>>> Can you do some bench-testing to see if the segments fully light with a 
>>> bit more voltage ?
>>> I collected current-voltage (I-V) data on all my 7971's so I can check 
>>> them for aging effects.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 8, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7 guus.a...@wolmail.nl 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Jim, 
>>>>   
>>>> If you have a source of UV-light, that will do a good job. 
>>>> Maybe an UV-Led beneath the tube will do the trick 
>>>>   
>>>> BR/ 
>>>> Guus 
>>>>
>>>> Op 07-10-2023 19:26 CEST schreef Jim KO5V : 
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>> I have a B7971 that doesn't want to light up - the ends of some 
>>>> segments will glow,  but none will illuminate along their entire length. I 
>>>> have had tubes in the past that were probably a bit gassy, and they 
>>>> cleaned 
>>>> up after running for a few minutes to a few hours. 
>>>>   
>>>> So, I put it into the "10 second" position of my Mod 6 clock, and ran 
>>>> it over night with no improvement. However after I had been up an hour or 
>>>> so, I noticed that the tube's segments were lighting up along about 3/4 of 
>>>> their lengths, and also that the low morning sun was shining on the clock. 
>>>> This state lasted for as long as the sunlight was on the tube - sometime 
>>>> after light moved off of the clock, the tube went back to it's wounded 
>>>> state.  
>>>>   
>>>> This morning I watched as the sunlight moved toward the clock, and as 
>>>> soon as the light hit the clock, the tube immediately recovered, and 
>>>> performed like it did yesterday. However, that state lasted for about 
>>>> 3-1/2 
>>>> hours after the sunlight moved away. I then shined a flashlight on the 
>>>> tube, and it recovered as long as the light was there.  
>>>>   
>>>> I guess this is some kind of photo-voltaic effect. I have a bit of 
>>>> education in basic phy

Re: [neonixie-l] An odd, but interesting observation of a weak B7971 tube

[gregebert]

Can you do some bench-testing to see if the segments fully light with a bit 
more voltage ?
I collected current-voltage (I-V) data on all my 7971's so I can check them 
for aging effects.

On Sunday, October 8, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7 guus.assm...@wolmail.nl 
wrote:

> Hello Jim, 
>   
> If you have a source of UV-light, that will do a good job. 
> Maybe an UV-Led beneath the tube will do the trick 
>   
> BR/ 
> Guus 
>
> Op 07-10-2023 19:26 CEST schreef Jim KO5V : 
>
>   
>   
> I have a B7971 that doesn't want to light up - the ends of some segments 
> will glow,  but none will illuminate along their entire length. I have had 
> tubes in the past that were probably a bit gassy, and they cleaned up after 
> running for a few minutes to a few hours. 
>   
> So, I put it into the "10 second" position of my Mod 6 clock, and ran it 
> over night with no improvement. However after I had been up an hour or so, 
> I noticed that the tube's segments were lighting up along about 3/4 of 
> their lengths, and also that the low morning sun was shining on the clock. 
> This state lasted for as long as the sunlight was on the tube - sometime 
> after light moved off of the clock, the tube went back to it's wounded 
> state.  
>   
> This morning I watched as the sunlight moved toward the clock, and as soon 
> as the light hit the clock, the tube immediately recovered, and performed 
> like it did yesterday. However, that state lasted for about 3-1/2 hours 
> after the sunlight moved away. I then shined a flashlight on the tube, and 
> it recovered as long as the light was there.  
>   
> I guess this is some kind of photo-voltaic effect. I have a bit of 
> education in basic physics (for engineering), and this baffles me - but 
> it's cool! 
>   
> I have a reading lamp that puts out a full spectrum, so I will put that on 
> the clock today and see what happens. I may also set up a test to run the 
> tube at a bit higher voltage (180-ish V). It may never recover completely, 
> but I think this is a fun exercise. 
>   
> Anyway, and ideas are welcome. I may not be able to save the tube, but I 
> might actually learn something.  Thanks.  Jim 
>
>  
>
> -- 
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>  
> .
>  
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Testing a 74141

[gregebert]

74xx TTL devices have a rather high input-low current, on the order of 1mA, 
so you should use a much smaller pulldown resistor, say 100 ohms, or 
perhaps none at all. Logically, it should not be possible for more than 1 
output to get driven low on the 7441, but that only applies if all 
parameters in the datasheet are met. I suspect that the 100K pulldown isn't 
really pulling-down to a logic-zero, and the IC has gone to some 
intermediate logic state which is non-deterministic.

For the LEDs, I would recommend having a 2K series resistor and driving 
from +12 VDC. That works out to around 5mA  of current which is enough to 
make many LEDs visibly glow and  well-below the 7mA max current rating of 
the 7441.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:30:15 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:

> I bought a 74141 on Ebay and I had a bit of trouble with the delivery but 
> it arrived eventually so I'm trying to test it on the breadboard.
>
> I've hooked up LEDs from +ve to all the outputs and pulled the 4 address 
> lines down to ground with 100k
>
> When I power it up 6 of the LEDS are on and raising any of the address 
> lines does nothing.
>
> It doesn't look good does it?
>
> Craig 
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Vacuum pumps for evacuating DIY nixies?

[gregebert]

I'm not an expert on vacuum systems, but the units I see most-commonly for 
low vacuums (such as what you would see in a typical engine or vacuum 
cleaner) are inches or mm of mercury; higher vacuums are measured in 
microns. One Torr (1mm Hg) is 1000 microns. It's a tad silly, because you 
cannot physically measure 1 micron of Hg in a manometer, though at room 
temp the vapor pressure of mercury is quite low, around 2 microns. 

I'm guessing that nixie makers will use whatever high-vacuum equipment they 
can find and afford, and from the brief video shots the setups look like 
they use high-quality (expensive) equipment. Nothing looked cheap or kludgy.

You can even use atmospheric air at low pressure to get a gas discharge.

On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 9:01:27 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:

> >  supposedly can get down to 35 microns
> Is there a particular technical reason to not use the torr unit of 
> measurement when discussing vacuum? Just curious if it's just personal 
> choice or if there's a technical principal at play.
>
> > My plan is to do some heating/baking while the system is fully evacuated
> I have seen Dalibor do this in one of his videos. 
>
> I've also seen it in this one as well at 10:24:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHv1f4_tDv4
>
> Also here, another nixie making gentleman: at 6:57
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyhmEUw4OL0
>
> > To do quality work, you will need another pump, typically a diffusion 
> pump, which will get you below 1 micron 
> I don't think I've yet seen any of the nixie makers talk about exactly the 
> sort of hardware they use, Just glimpses in an occasional camera shot. 
> Do you reckon it's what Dalibur and these other gents use?
>  
>
> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>
>> I bought an A/C evacuation pump from Harbor Freight Tools that supposedly 
>> can get down to 35 microns; I dont have any equipment to measure anywhere 
>> near that low. It was a relatively inexpensive pump, around 80 USD. I think 
>> it's sufficient to do some experimenting. My plan is to do some 
>> heating/baking while the system is fully evacuated, then pressurize with 
>> enough argon (it's cheap and widely available) to get a glow. If I can 
>> sustain the glow for several minutes while heating the tube, I will pump it 
>> down a second time to hopefully get rid of any additional released 
>> contaminants, then refill. After I've made a few of these, I'll make a 
>> decision to continue spending time-and-money, or decide my experiment was 
>> enough to satisfy my curiosity and move onto something else. I'm definitely 
>> not going to build nixies. There are a few other things I want to make that 
>> require a vacuum and some glasswork, such as a radiometer.
>>
>> To do quality work, you will need another pump, typically a diffusion 
>> pump, which will get you below 1 micron and will be rather costly. The 
>> mechanical pump must first be used to pump down as much as possible, before 
>> the diffusion pump is used.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:24:05 PM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, that makes more sense. So in that case High Vacuum is required to 
>>> evacuate then. 
>>>
>>> What sort of pump would I need to be looking for to achieve that?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 5:41:36 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, that's once the tube is pressurized with the desired gas. However, 
>>>> to cleanse the tube of impurities, it must be baked-out and evacuated  to 
>>>> a 
>>>> rather high vacuum. Even at a high vacuum of 1 micron, there are still an 
>>>> extraordinary number of gas molecules present, on the order of 10^16 per 
>>>> liter. For home-made tubes I would actually want to re-evacuate the tube a 
>>>> second time, and refill, to get even more impurities removed.
>>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From he Drive books archive
>>>>> Nixe Tube Data > NixieGas.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I was using the following excerpt from this book. Is it wrong or am I 
>>>>> getting something mixed up?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you mean 10-50 microns (which is 1000 timer lower), not 10-50 
>>>>>> Torr. One atmosphere of pressure is 760 Torr (760mm Hg).
>>>>>> I've seen neon-sign texts stating the need to get below 1 micron for 
>>>>

[neonixie-l] Re: Vacuum pumps for evacuating DIY nixies?

[gregebert]

I bought an A/C evacuation pump from Harbor Freight Tools that supposedly 
can get down to 35 microns; I dont have any equipment to measure anywhere 
near that low. It was a relatively inexpensive pump, around 80 USD. I think 
it's sufficient to do some experimenting. My plan is to do some 
heating/baking while the system is fully evacuated, then pressurize with 
enough argon (it's cheap and widely available) to get a glow. If I can 
sustain the glow for several minutes while heating the tube, I will pump it 
down a second time to hopefully get rid of any additional released 
contaminants, then refill. After I've made a few of these, I'll make a 
decision to continue spending time-and-money, or decide my experiment was 
enough to satisfy my curiosity and move onto something else. I'm definitely 
not going to build nixies. There are a few other things I want to make that 
require a vacuum and some glasswork, such as a radiometer.

To do quality work, you will need another pump, typically a diffusion pump, 
which will get you below 1 micron and will be rather costly. The mechanical 
pump must first be used to pump down as much as possible, before the 
diffusion pump is used.

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 9:24:05 PM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:

> Ok, that makes more sense. So in that case High Vacuum is required to 
> evacuate then. 
>
> What sort of pump would I need to be looking for to achieve that?
>
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 5:41:36 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>
>> OK, that's once the tube is pressurized with the desired gas. However, to 
>> cleanse the tube of impurities, it must be baked-out and evacuated  to a 
>> rather high vacuum. Even at a high vacuum of 1 micron, there are still an 
>> extraordinary number of gas molecules present, on the order of 10^16 per 
>> liter. For home-made tubes I would actually want to re-evacuate the tube a 
>> second time, and refill, to get even more impurities removed.
>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:
>>
>>> From he Drive books archive
>>> Nixe Tube Data > NixieGas.pdf
>>>
>>> I was using the following excerpt from this book. Is it wrong or am I 
>>> getting something mixed up?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you mean 10-50 microns (which is 1000 timer lower), not 10-50 
>>>> Torr. One atmosphere of pressure is 760 Torr (760mm Hg).
>>>> I've seen neon-sign texts stating the need to get below 1 micron for 
>>>> proper bombarding, and I imagine nixie tubes are similar.
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 6:57:51 AM UTC-7 Nick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Look at Dalibor's videos.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 12:08:57 UTC+1 milesan...@gmail.com 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we require to reach vacuums of 10 - 50 torr depending on the 
>>>>>> gas mixture. What sort of vacuum pumps are we looking at sourcing to 
>>>>>> achieve those levels?
>>>>>>
>>>>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Vacuum pumps for evacuating DIY nixies?

[gregebert]

>From what I've researched, getters target oxygen, but I'm certain there are 
other rogue agents lurking out there to ruin your neon work.

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 2:47:03 PM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:

> That is also the purpose of using a getter too right? Remove the majority 
> of the gaseous impurities before back filling with neon/penning gas mixture?
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:41 PM gregebert  wrote:
>
>> OK, that's once the tube is pressurized with the desired gas. However, to 
>> cleanse the tube of impurities, it must be baked-out and evacuated  to a 
>> rather high vacuum. Even at a high vacuum of 1 micron, there are still an 
>> extraordinary number of gas molecules present, on the order of 10^16 per 
>> liter. For home-made tubes I would actually want to re-evacuate the tube a 
>> second time, and refill, to get even more impurities removed.
>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:
>>
>>> From he Drive books archive
>>> Nixe Tube Data > NixieGas.pdf
>>>
>>> I was using the following excerpt from this book. Is it wrong or am I 
>>> getting something mixed up?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you mean 10-50 microns (which is 1000 timer lower), not 10-50 
>>>> Torr. One atmosphere of pressure is 760 Torr (760mm Hg).
>>>> I've seen neon-sign texts stating the need to get below 1 micron for 
>>>> proper bombarding, and I imagine nixie tubes are similar.
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 6:57:51 AM UTC-7 Nick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Look at Dalibor's videos.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 12:08:57 UTC+1 milesan...@gmail.com 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we require to reach vacuums of 10 - 50 torr depending on the 
>>>>>> gas mixture. What sort of vacuum pumps are we looking at sourcing to 
>>>>>> achieve those levels?
>>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ea949a55-26f7-41f0-9118-7f190f9d9fafn%40googlegroups.com
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ea949a55-26f7-41f0-9118-7f190f9d9fafn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Vacuum pumps for evacuating DIY nixies?

[gregebert]

OK, that's once the tube is pressurized with the desired gas. However, to 
cleanse the tube of impurities, it must be baked-out and evacuated  to a 
rather high vacuum. Even at a high vacuum of 1 micron, there are still an 
extraordinary number of gas molecules present, on the order of 10^16 per 
liter. For home-made tubes I would actually want to re-evacuate the tube a 
second time, and refill, to get even more impurities removed.
On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:

> From he Drive books archive
> Nixe Tube Data > NixieGas.pdf
>
> I was using the following excerpt from this book. Is it wrong or am I 
> getting something mixed up?
>
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>
>> I think you mean 10-50 microns (which is 1000 timer lower), not 10-50 
>> Torr. One atmosphere of pressure is 760 Torr (760mm Hg).
>> I've seen neon-sign texts stating the need to get below 1 micron for 
>> proper bombarding, and I imagine nixie tubes are similar.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 6:57:51 AM UTC-7 Nick wrote:
>>
>>> Look at Dalibor's videos.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 12:08:57 UTC+1 milesan...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good day.
>>>>
>>>> Since we require to reach vacuums of 10 - 50 torr depending on the gas 
>>>> mixture. What sort of vacuum pumps are we looking at sourcing to achieve 
>>>> those levels?
>>>>
>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Vacuum pumps for evacuating DIY nixies?

[gregebert]

I think you mean 10-50 microns (which is 1000 timer lower), not 10-50 Torr. 
One atmosphere of pressure is 760 Torr (760mm Hg).
I've seen neon-sign texts stating the need to get below 1 micron for proper 
bombarding, and I imagine nixie tubes are similar.

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 6:57:51 AM UTC-7 Nick wrote:

> Look at Dalibor's videos.
>
> On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 12:08:57 UTC+1 milesan...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Good day.
>>
>> Since we require to reach vacuums of 10 - 50 torr depending on the gas 
>> mixture. What sort of vacuum pumps are we looking at sourcing to achieve 
>> those levels?
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: An Introduction,

[gregebert]

I'm not a fan of multiplexing nixies because of the additional current that 
can lead to shorter lifespan. Multiplexing was common when components for 
driving tubes were expensive and tubes were plentiful; today it's the 
opposite. As long as the tubes dont run 24/7, you will probably get a lot 
of enjoyment from your display. A lot of us use passive IR (PIR) sensors to 
activate our displays only when someone is there to look at it.

I would use 12mA for 1msec as your starting point, and if it's bright 
enough, try reducing the current.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 11:23:20 AM UTC-7 Craig Garnett wrote:

> Hi, I'm Craig from the north of England. 
>
> A friend of mine has had a liking for nixies for a while and we've spoke 
> about building clock kits before. However, he bought 12 x Z570m tubes and 
> after a (probably drunken) conversation that I wasn't involved in, it was 
> decided to build a device that displays the distance from Earth of the two 
> Voyager spacecraft and display it on the nixies. 
>
> So the question was asked, "do you think you could build it?" to which the 
> obvious answer was "I don't know but I'll have a go"
>
> A couple of months later we have a working prototype displaying the 
> distances of both craft in miles and km on multiplexed 12x7 segment leds.
>
> Next step it to get it working on the nixies,
>
> I know from the datasheets (google translated from German) that typical 
> anode current is 2mA and I think that the max multiplexed current is 12mA 
> for no more than 2mS although I've seen elsewhere that it could be 2mA 
> averaged over the duty cycle which would be 24mA
>
> My output routine can do all 12 tubes in 1mS but I can insert microsecond 
> delays to slow it to whatever works best.
>
> I'm sure that I'll be back with questions soon.
>
> Nice to meet you all,
>
> Craig
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: What type of tubing / valves are used in vacuum and de-gassing, gas population experiments?

[gregebert]

The only gauge I can think of would be a standard "U" gauge (manometer), 
but that is only practical down to a few millibars with mercury. Maybe 
there are some exotic liquids with low vapor pressure that might work a bit 
lower, but I doubt anything exists that would get you into the micron range.

For vacuum levels into the micron range, you need something like a Pirani 
gauge, and that requires external connections.

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 11:18:09 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:

> Actually there was something else I was wondering about. 
>
> Is there such a thing as an accurate vacuum gauge which you can just drop 
> into a chamber instead of connecting to the valve / air line of the pump? 
> Conceivably it's something that has it's own sealed air container and would 
> detect the expansion force / difference between external and internal 
> pressures? 
>
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 2:16:13 PM UTC-4 Miles Thatch wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the read references. I know this group has a shared drive with 
>> some reading material. Maybe I can find some of these there. 
>>
>> I'm primarily interested in making a few special character display nixies 
>> like the in-12 tubes. More experimentation than anything. I've seen a gent 
>> on Youtube make one in his garage.  
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 1:56:37 PM UTC-4 gregebert wrote:
>>
>>> I did a lot of research about 15 years ago when I was thinking about 
>>> doing neon art. There are 3 really good books (The Neon Engineer's 
>>> Notebook, Neon Techniques, and The Neon Superguide) and I recommend you 
>>> read all 3 cover-to-cover. Though not particularly for nixies, there is a 
>>> lot of good info about the overall process. I have yet to read the Weston 
>>> text (Cold Cathode Glow Discharge Tubes).
>>>
>>> You will need to pump down to the micron range, and that generally 
>>> requires a diffusion pump ( a fascinating device, and another topic on it's 
>>> own...) in addition to a traditional vane pump that will get you well-below 
>>> the millibar range. I decided against doing neon art because the bombarding 
>>> process is very dangerous; far more dangerous than experimenting with 
>>> microwave oven transformers.
>>>
>>> The manifolds I saw were made of glass, even the valves, and require a 
>>> special lubricant/sealant. I think you can use induction heating, rather 
>>> than bombarding, for removing impurities. The other thing that discouraged 
>>> me was the need to use mercury; it's rather toxic and I was concerned about 
>>> inhaling vapors. I'm not afraid of mercury in liquid form.
>>>
>>> Keep me posted if you start experimenting. I have a vacuum pump and 
>>> intend to do some basic tinkering with gas discharges, but I have no 
>>> intention of taking it to the point of making something durable.
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 10:23:32 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm looking to experiment with making a cold cathode character display. 
>>>> I have plenty of experience experimenting with manufactured IN-12 tubes 
>>>> and 
>>>> the power supplies that drive these, but I want to step further to 
>>>> experiment in making my own.
>>>>
>>>> What grade of materials / tubing / valves should I be looking at to try 
>>>> and build my own jig for evacuating air from a tube and populating a gas?
>>>>
>>>> I don't suppose just about any valve with do (like liquid control 
>>>> valve) and looking at my hobbyist grade vacuum chamber, the tubing 
>>>> contains 
>>>> a spooled wire on the inside to provide rigidity to counter the vacuum 
>>>> forces.
>>>>
>>>> Would brass / copper tubing sealed with aluminum weld be suitable?
>>>>
>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: What type of tubing / valves are used in vacuum and de-gassing, gas population experiments?

[gregebert]

I did a lot of research about 15 years ago when I was thinking about doing 
neon art. There are 3 really good books (The Neon Engineer's Notebook, Neon 
Techniques, and The Neon Superguide) and I recommend you read all 3 
cover-to-cover. Though not particularly for nixies, there is a lot of good 
info about the overall process. I have yet to read the Weston text (Cold 
Cathode Glow Discharge Tubes).

You will need to pump down to the micron range, and that generally requires 
a diffusion pump ( a fascinating device, and another topic on it's own...) 
in addition to a traditional vane pump that will get you well-below the 
millibar range. I decided against doing neon art because the bombarding 
process is very dangerous; far more dangerous than experimenting with 
microwave oven transformers.

The manifolds I saw were made of glass, even the valves, and require a 
special lubricant/sealant. I think you can use induction heating, rather 
than bombarding, for removing impurities. The other thing that discouraged 
me was the need to use mercury; it's rather toxic and I was concerned about 
inhaling vapors. I'm not afraid of mercury in liquid form.

Keep me posted if you start experimenting. I have a vacuum pump and intend 
to do some basic tinkering with gas discharges, but I have no intention of 
taking it to the point of making something durable.

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 10:23:32 AM UTC-7 Miles Thatch wrote:

> I'm looking to experiment with making a cold cathode character display. I 
> have plenty of experience experimenting with manufactured IN-12 tubes and 
> the power supplies that drive these, but I want to step further to 
> experiment in making my own.
>
> What grade of materials / tubing / valves should I be looking at to try 
> and build my own jig for evacuating air from a tube and populating a gas?
>
> I don't suppose just about any valve with do (like liquid control valve) 
> and looking at my hobbyist grade vacuum chamber, the tubing contains a 
> spooled wire on the inside to provide rigidity to counter the vacuum forces.
>
> Would brass / copper tubing sealed with aluminum weld be suitable?
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Seen these before?

[gregebert]

The joke here in the US is that gasoline has been priced at  xxx.9 cents 
per gallon for as long as I can remember, which makes the ".9" financially 
meaningless, though it's believed by marketing dorks that there is a 
perception that a gallon of gas costing 4.999 is a lot cheaper than 5.00 .

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 1:29:52 AM UTC-7 Jon wrote:

> Guessing they might've been used in petrol (gasoline) pump price displays? 
> I have a childhood memory of watching what I now know to be a numitron 
> display on the pump with a 1/2 oscillating on and off as the total mounted. 
> Back when a 1/2p was actually a relevant concept with a physical coin too...
>
> Jon.
>
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:02:39 AM UTC+1 Nicholas Stock wrote:
>
>> [image: 20230821_164810.jpg]
>>
>> Nick
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Vintage projection display optic cell indicator

[gregebert]

Unusual gizmo. I see that it's "backwards", so you need to project onto the 
backside of a screen. From the video it appears to have a built-in lens 
because the characters were nice and crisp, not blurry. Definitely would 
make a neat clock if you had 4 or 6 of them.

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:08:31 PM UTC-7 Mac Doktor wrote:

> I just received one of these:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/115878932855
>
>
> I haven't powered it up yet.
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."—Roy Batty, *Blade 
> Runner*
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

NICE!  You will find this very useful for testing and characterizing nixie 
tubes.

For my more-valuable tubes (RZ568m and b7971), I collect current-voltage 
data for each numeral (or segment) and plot on a graph. From there, I can 
see if there is consistency across tubes, which is an indicator of quality. 
Anything inconsistent is an indication of a quality issue, or possibly 
end-of-life.

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 5:23:42 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> Thanks for your help, 
> I finished my HV power supply...
> [image: 20230819_125349.jpg]
>
> From right to left, top to bottom:
>
> Voltage Output of the DC-DC converter
> Ajustment of the DC-DC output
> Input 8-32V (Usually Set on 12V)
>
> AMeter Output
> 50K Adj. + 4.7k Resistor (2w each)
>
> Voltage Output to the tubes
> output (up to 300V DC)
>
> So far, all is working just fine, tested up to 250V.
> I may add a shunt or a change the AMeter if needed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Benoit.
> Le mardi 2 mai 2023 à 23:17:56 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>
>> I've used a few different flavors of these cheap digital meters 
>> (0-500VDC, 120VAC, 300VDC) and have not had any problemsyet.  Most of 
>> them are self-powered, which is handy because it doesn't require a separate 
>> power supply, though risky because they do create a potential source for a 
>> short. Everything I build has fuses, so even if one of these things 
>> shorted-out, it would just blow a fuse. All but one of them are in metal 
>> cases, so if they caught fire, it would be contained.
>>
>> The most dangerous line-powered items I know of are LED bulbs; even worse 
>> than CFLs due to their construction. I've replaced several on the verge of 
>> failing, or already failed, that have obvious signs of overheating or will 
>> actually still hot in the socket. Hnow I gotta go burn one to see 
>> if the plastic is self-extinguishing. I'm pretty sure those cheap meters 
>> will burn on their own once ignited, but I'm not sure I want to destroy one 
>> in the name of science.unless I can find a *really* cheap one.
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 2, 2023 at 11:54:36 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>
>>> I am a bit afraid of all those inexpensive displays made in PRC, the 
>>> seller often doesn't know what he is selling, the specs are wrong or 
>>> trunked, and I don't know their behavior with 300V DC or more...
>>>
>>> Well, I ran a few of my IN-1, I had to run a couple of them at 4mA 180V 
>>> and the black marks disappears completely after 4h. I can reduce to 150V 
>>> 2mA and still have a good glow.
>>> those tubes are very nice with the "normal" 5, much better than the 
>>> IN-4. 
>>> should be nice on a 6 digit clock with a decatron for tenths of a second.
>>>
>>> Le mercredi 26 avril 2023 à 00:37:49 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Looks good. I've gotten very fond of the inexpensive digital meters on 
>>>> Ebay and started putting them in many of my projects.
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:16:21 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [image: 20230425_170205.jpg]
>>>>> Here is  the first try for my testing devices.
>>>>> My HT power device, with the voltage regulated with the rheostat. next 
>>>>> step will be the rheostat for the output power and placing the voltmeter 
>>>>> after the limitation resistors and an on/off switch.
>>>>> The box is just to have an idea of the size.  may be I will print 
>>>>> something or find a more accurate box... ;-)
>>>>> I will add a 5V USB power supply
>>>>>
>>>>> on the left an arduino uno with a hat and a zif for testing K155id1 
>>>>> with a 12 pin SIL connector for a nixie tube, here a support for IN-1.
>>>>> I made one for IN-12, I am making one for IN-2 and one other for IN-4.
>>>>>
>>>>> on top of the box, a 12 position manual switch. I will use a 
>>>>> Protoboard for better contacts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le samedi 22 avril 2023 à 22:31:34 UTC+2, Benoit Tourret a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Terry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this also will help me a lot.
>>>>>> My electronic courses are too far to be clear in my mind...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I read gregebert's thread, I wanted to write the complete 
>>>>>> equation to calculate the resistor for a wanted current. but the result 
>>>>>>

[neonixie-l] Re: connector for Nixie tube with flexible pins

[gregebert]

Paul - How much insertion force is required for the MillMax pins ? Do you 
have to use needle-nose pliers on each lead, or can you plug-in the tube ?
What about removal ?

I have a future VFD project with Soviet-era tubes that have leads, and 
havn't decided on solder vs socket.

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 9:05:21 AM UTC-7 Paul Andrews wrote:

> For tubes with leads rather than pins I use  Mill-Max 
> 0665-0-15-15-30-27-10-0 https://www.digikey.com/short/pd7709hz
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:36:08 AM UTC-4 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am searching for female pins where I could insert the flexible pins of 
>> a nixie tube such as a IN-14 or a IN-8-1 without soldier them.
>> of course, this should working also with VFD tubes.
>>
>> the idea should for testing tubes, for prototyping or non permanent 
>> purpose...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Benoit.
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: connector for Nixie tube with flexible pins

[gregebert]

You can find them on Ebay (nixie socket pins). I use them on all my 
projects.

[image: 50pcs Nixie/VFD Tube Socket Pins 1mm Gold Plated IN-12 IN-18 IN-8 
QS30-1 ZM1040 - Picture 1 of 5]

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 8:36:08 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am searching for female pins where I could insert the flexible pins of a 
> nixie tube such as a IN-14 or a IN-8-1 without soldier them.
> of course, this should working also with VFD tubes.
>
> the idea should for testing tubes, for prototyping or non permanent 
> purpose...
>
> Regards,
> Benoit.
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] ScopeClock with teensy4.0

[gregebert]

Sounds like the CRT-related stuff is fine (congratulations, BTW), and you 
have issues with the DAC. Have you checked the linearity of the DAC ? The 
best way to start is to run all DAC codes, starting from 0 and incrementing 
to the top, and verify the waveform is a stair-step. I suggest leaving each 
value for about 10usec to allow more than enough time for the DAC and 
amplifiers to settle. Which DAC are you using ? My only experience is with 
8-bit parallel-input DACs, and I had no problems with it (ADCs, on the 
other hand, are a different story). If you see erratic behavior, post 
the findings and we can figure out next steps.

If the DAC is operating correctly, then my first suspect is the 
range/offset of your DAC. You might not be able to drive it rail-to-rail 
due to the design of the level-shifters/deflection amps. In that case, try 
to narrow-down the range where the DAC is driving the CRT as-expected.

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 3:42:21 AM UTC-7 Max Di Noi wrote:

> Hey, Adrian, let me knew if you find that Teensy 3.6.
>
>
> I'm not having much luck with a teensy 4.1 + external DAC using SPI. Nor I 
> can see any issues at all in the code. 
> The connections are simple enough but it cannot draw a circle (as a test) 
> on my CRT using the open source code that Cathode Corner published. Indeed, 
> when I test the DAC output on the oscilloscope looks irregular, whereas the 
> SPI lines seems to behave as expected. Odd. 
>
> If I input two sine waves into the deflection amplifiers using my signal 
> generator, then I can get a circle on the CRT, that proves that power 
> supply, level shifters and deflection amplifiers should be fine. 
>
>  Original message 
> From: Adrian Godwin  
> Date: 10/06/2023 17:17 (GMT+00:00) 
> To: neoni...@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ScopeClock with teensy4.0 
>
> I think I have an unused teensy 3.6. 
> It may take some time to track it down but I'd happily swap it for a 4.1 
> if that simplifies things for you.
>
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:03 PM David Forbes  wrote:
>
>> Here is the schematic of the SCTV rev E, which uses the Teensy 4.1. 
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 8:51 AM Max Di Noi  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for your prompt reply David.
>>>
>>> I have already printed my board for a Teensy 3.6. I have no issues 
>>> soldering tiny smd components assuming that I can get an LTC22632! I may 
>>> design a small PCB to super-impose the Teensy 4.1 over the existing 
>>> footprint and layout. In doing so, I could add the dual DAC on this new 
>>> adapter board. I can see CS is connected to pin10 but where are CLK and SDI 
>>> of the LTC2632 connected? I don’t see them in the code. Yes, It would be 
>>> great if you could post diagram for SCTV-E for Teensy 4.1 please.
>>>
>>> Interesting that you are redesigning the transformer. I managed to 
>>> hand-wire mine and seems to work well. The 6.3V for the heater is the one 
>>> that I’m not too sure how to calibrate exactly, since the SMPS… It shines a 
>>> bit too bright at the moment and voltage drops to 2V, so that’s not healthy 
>>> for the heater filament. I can remove a few turns but not sure what is the 
>>> ‘exact’ RMS V I’m looking for given the spikes of the SMPS at 100Khz, I’ll 
>>> continue to experiment on that using a 6.2V 500mA lightbulb to avoid 
>>> damaging the CRT.
>>>
>>> Thanks again for updating the schematic when you get a chance, it’ll 
>>> save me so much time to experiment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Jun 2023, at 16:41, David Forbes  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi. The SCTV with the Teensy 4.0 uses an LTC2632 dual DAC. This uses SPI 
>>> to load the X and Y values. It's about half the update rate of the built-in 
>>> DACs in the previous Teensy 3.6, so I had to change the step size in the 
>>> drawing routines.
>>> Unfortunately this chip is tiny, so it's hard to solder. 
>>> I am in the process of redesigning the transformer and circuit board to 
>>> be more friendly for kit and DIY use. I want to make the PC board with 
>>> through hole parts, since people enjoy soldering those together.
>>> I will see if I can post the latest SCTV schematic diagram to my website 
>>> today. I've been traveling a lot lately. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:33 AM Max DN  wrote:
>>>
 True, but the schematic is SCTV rev. C which is for Teensy 3.6. Does 
 anyone have the schematic for using Teensy 4.1? Just designed a clock 
 based 
 on SCTV-rev and custom transformer but of course I have now realised that 
 Teensy 3.6 is impossible to get...

 Il giorno sabato 11 marzo 2023 alle 18:41:05 UTC SD ha scritto:

> David Forbes has the schematic on his website, and the firmware on 
> Github.  I did not see that Jörg was making kits, in fact he said he 
> didn't 
> want to make kits, but perhaps make a PCB available, so I do not know why 
> people are asking for kits.  
>
> On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 3:42:49 PM UTC-5 liam bartosiewicz 

Re: [neonixie-l] Found some pushwheel / thumbwheel switches for TIME!

[gregebert]

The manufacturer "cheated", because they only display in increments of 5 
minutes. So, with 4 bits you can get just over 1 hour.

I use 4 BCD thumbwheel switches in my upcoming alarm clock, so that 
burned-up 16 bits. But since I read them thru a serial interface that is 
shared with other switches and LED's, it doesn't require additional pins 
from the CPU or FPGA, but it does take additional shift register ICs.

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 2:40:33 PM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> I found those thumbweels, but they are DCD decimal coded decimal, 10 
> outputs, easy to tests nixie, but I stopped at 3 nixie !!!
>
> how did they manage to count in binary up to 59 with 4 bits ???
>
> Le jeudi 22 juin 2023 à 17:21:23 UTC+2, Nick Andrews a écrit :
>
>> Looks like some used in counters and timers in NIM and related nuclear 
>> physics stuff.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 6:03 PM 'Moses' via neonixie-l <
>> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I forgot I had this! I found a box of old BCD output thumbwheel switches 
>>> marked with the time. Hours 1-12 and minutes at 5 increments. Maybe for an 
>>> alarm input? Would need a switch for AM/PM.
>>>
>>> What else can it be used for ??
>>>
>>> I don't need all the quantity I have.. so if anyone wants some PM me.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Moses
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: IMG_20230621_154658275_HDR-small.jpg][image: 
>>> IMG_20230621_154703466_HDR-small.jpg]
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group.
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>>> an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/97052329-3814-4dcb-a637-679d49e6a442n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] CRT - heater connected to cathode - 6.3V AC or DC

[gregebert]

20 years ? Amazing. How is the phosphor holding up after 20 years ? Do you 
dim the CRT (ie, with a PIR sensor or manually turning-down the brightness) 
, or just let that run as well ?

I have an 8SJ31J CRT clock kit I bought from an overseas seller (it 
wouldn't surprise me if they plagiarized your design, David), and I'm 
reluctant to keep it running a lot out of concerns for the phosphor 
lifetime.

On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 8:15:35 PM UTC-7 David Forbes wrote:

> The Ccope Clock has a rather unusual power supply. It makes a 100kHz 
> square wave for the tube heater. You can't measure it as 6.3V RMS because 
> it's not a sine wave.
> When I designed and tested the transformer, I went by the color of the 
> orange heater glow to get the voltage correct. It seems to work well with 
> the original SC100 clocks, as their CRTs still glow after 20 years of 
> continuous operation. 
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 12:07 AM Max DN  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Reposting with a new title for good order, as I didn't get a reply 
>> before, probably because this post was comingoled in another post.
>>
>> I have built a Scope Clock based on David Forbes design. I hand wound the 
>> transformer.
>>
>> All secondaries, including for the heater are on the same core, so the 
>> voltage for the heather output depends on duty ratio, frequency and load on 
>> the other secondaries.
>>
>> I noticed that even if I’m careful with the winding ratio, it’s difficult 
>> to get an exact 6.3VAC RMS under load and the output voltage would also 
>> depend on the overall load on the primary, being the regulated secondary 
>> winding on the same core (SMPS regulated to +250VDC). 
>>
>> So now I’m thinking to use a +6.3VDC power supply that I had designed on 
>> the same board. I have rectified one of the secondary voltage to about 
>> +12VDC, then I stepped it down to +6.3VDC regulated. The step-down power 
>> supply works well this way. 
>>
>> However when I connect the ‘IsolatedGround’ from the 6.3VDC power supply 
>> to the Cathode PIN of the CRT (internally connected on this tube), the 
>> power consumption increases and the focus pot gets hot very quickly, taking 
>> the a full 600mA load. 
>>
>> So, clearly something isn’t right in this last step, given the huge 
>> voltage differential between CATHODE and IsolatedGround.
>>
>> My schematic attached.
>>
>> >> Any suggestions on how to connect the +6.3VDC isolated power supply to 
>> the Cathode pin of the CRT welcome. I’m sure I’m missing something obvious.
>>
>> >> Also, any tips on what RMS voltage I should read (with and without 
>> load) if I power the heater straight from the secondary. This works well 
>> when connected to the Cathode pin of the CRT, I can even read 6.2VRMS but a 
>> test light bulb of 6.2V 500mA got quickly very dark when receiving 5.7V 
>> under 450mA load, not good.
>>
>> So, not testing it on the CRT again until I get this right. I manage to 
>> get a green dot on the CRT, which is a good sign. But I need to get the 
>> heater voltage right before I plug the CRT in again.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> -- 
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>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>> email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/1466f997-3cfb-4861-abad-c492ef9be684n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: CRT - heater connected to cathode - 6.3V AC or DC

[gregebert]

Where is the power to the regulator for the +5v isolated supply coming from 
? That source needs to be isolated as well.

On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:01:46 AM UTC-7 Max DN wrote:

> That was a mistake, I have corrected the schematic, attached. Grahame 
> pointed it out too. Apologies.
>
> What I don't understand is: is it even possible to connect IsolatedGnd to 
> GridGround? There is 1.2k Volt differential. I see Sgiteach does it but 
> Grahame is using two different transformers for the highvoltage supply vs 
> heater supply and then he connects IsolatedGnd to GridGround, I'm trying to 
> do that from the same core, maybe isn't possible? What I don't understand 
> is that if I connect the heater secondary (AC voltage) to GridGround, it 
> works all fine.
>
> If I connect a resistor between IsolatedGnd and GridGround it gets hot 
> very quickly, rightly so...
>
> I must be missing something very simple here...
>
>
> Il giorno sabato 17 giugno 2023 alle 15:54:35 UTC+1 gregebert ha scritto:
>
>> I see a +5 v supply going to the filament supply, but there is no mention 
>> of that being isolated like the 12V_isolated supply. I suspect there is 
>> missing isolation somewhere. The filament is biased near the cathode 
>> voltage, which is several hundred volts negative.
>>
>> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:07:20 AM UTC-7 Max DN wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Reposting with a new title for good order, as I didn't get a reply 
>>> before, probably because this post was comingoled in another post.
>>>
>>> I have built a Scope Clock based on David Forbes design. I hand wound 
>>> the transformer.
>>>
>>> All secondaries, including for the heater are on the same core, so the 
>>> voltage for the heather output depends on duty ratio, frequency and load on 
>>> the other secondaries.
>>>
>>> I noticed that even if I’m careful with the winding ratio, it’s 
>>> difficult to get an exact 6.3VAC RMS under load and the output voltage 
>>> would also depend on the overall load on the primary, being the regulated 
>>> secondary winding on the same core (SMPS regulated to +250VDC). 
>>>
>>> So now I’m thinking to use a +6.3VDC power supply that I had designed on 
>>> the same board. I have rectified one of the secondary voltage to about 
>>> +12VDC, then I stepped it down to +6.3VDC regulated. The step-down power 
>>> supply works well this way. 
>>>
>>> However when I connect the ‘IsolatedGround’ from the 6.3VDC power supply 
>>> to the Cathode PIN of the CRT (internally connected on this tube), the 
>>> power consumption increases and the focus pot gets hot very quickly, taking 
>>> the a full 600mA load. 
>>>
>>> So, clearly something isn’t right in this last step, given the huge 
>>> voltage differential between CATHODE and IsolatedGround.
>>>
>>> My schematic attached.
>>>
>>> >> Any suggestions on how to connect the +6.3VDC isolated power supply 
>>> to the Cathode pin of the CRT welcome. I’m sure I’m missing something 
>>> obvious.
>>>
>>> >> Also, any tips on what RMS voltage I should read (with and without 
>>> load) if I power the heater straight from the secondary. This works well 
>>> when connected to the Cathode pin of the CRT, I can even read 6.2VRMS but a 
>>> test light bulb of 6.2V 500mA got quickly very dark when receiving 5.7V 
>>> under 450mA load, not good.
>>>
>>> So, not testing it on the CRT again until I get this right. I manage to 
>>> get a green dot on the CRT, which is a good sign. But I need to get the 
>>> heater voltage right before I plug the CRT in again.
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: CRT - heater connected to cathode - 6.3V AC or DC

[gregebert]

I see a +5 v supply going to the filament supply, but there is no mention 
of that being isolated like the 12V_isolated supply. I suspect there is 
missing isolation somewhere. The filament is biased near the cathode 
voltage, which is several hundred volts negative.

On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:07:20 AM UTC-7 Max DN wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Reposting with a new title for good order, as I didn't get a reply before, 
> probably because this post was comingoled in another post.
>
> I have built a Scope Clock based on David Forbes design. I hand wound the 
> transformer.
>
> All secondaries, including for the heater are on the same core, so the 
> voltage for the heather output depends on duty ratio, frequency and load on 
> the other secondaries.
>
> I noticed that even if I’m careful with the winding ratio, it’s difficult 
> to get an exact 6.3VAC RMS under load and the output voltage would also 
> depend on the overall load on the primary, being the regulated secondary 
> winding on the same core (SMPS regulated to +250VDC). 
>
> So now I’m thinking to use a +6.3VDC power supply that I had designed on 
> the same board. I have rectified one of the secondary voltage to about 
> +12VDC, then I stepped it down to +6.3VDC regulated. The step-down power 
> supply works well this way. 
>
> However when I connect the ‘IsolatedGround’ from the 6.3VDC power supply 
> to the Cathode PIN of the CRT (internally connected on this tube), the 
> power consumption increases and the focus pot gets hot very quickly, taking 
> the a full 600mA load. 
>
> So, clearly something isn’t right in this last step, given the huge 
> voltage differential between CATHODE and IsolatedGround.
>
> My schematic attached.
>
> >> Any suggestions on how to connect the +6.3VDC isolated power supply to 
> the Cathode pin of the CRT welcome. I’m sure I’m missing something obvious.
>
> >> Also, any tips on what RMS voltage I should read (with and without 
> load) if I power the heater straight from the secondary. This works well 
> when connected to the Cathode pin of the CRT, I can even read 6.2VRMS but a 
> test light bulb of 6.2V 500mA got quickly very dark when receiving 5.7V 
> under 450mA load, not good.
>
> So, not testing it on the CRT again until I get this right. I manage to 
> get a green dot on the CRT, which is a good sign. But I need to get the 
> heater voltage right before I plug the CRT in again.
>
> Thank you
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Diving VFD such as IV-22 etc DC Vs AC Filament drive

[gregebert]

Adding series resistors also reduces the current spike during power-on. 
Hard to say what fails first with VFD's; ones that I've seen such as the 
displays on kitchen appliances which run 24/7 show phosphor degradation 
after a few years. If you frequently power-cycle the filaments, then you 
definitely want to take steps to reduce the current spike.

Be sure to include a PIR sensor so you can shut off the segments when it's 
not in-use; your decision to keep filaments on or off.

For my NIMO clock, I shut off the anode supply after 2 minutes of no PIR 
activity to reduce phosphor burn, and the filaments go off after 12 hours 
of no activity.

On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 6:20:18 AM UTC-7 Paul Andrews wrote:

> Assuming you drive the filaments in parallel rather than in series, a DC 
> voltage would be fine. If you drive them in series then (I assume) the 
> voltage gradient might be visible. A decision to drive in parallel has a 
> knock-on effect - I couldn't come up with an AC drive that had a constant 
> voltage with varying load. With filaments in parallel, the load will change 
> if one or more filaments burn out. You don't want a filament burn out to 
> increase the voltage across the remaining tubes, otherwise they might burn 
> out too - so a regulated DC voltage is easiest. With a non-regulated AC 
> supply, you will also get a higher voltage at startup when the filament is 
> cold. Another reason to go with a regulated DC supply. Which brings me to 
> the potential issue of in-rush current. Either a constant current setup or 
> a current-limiting resistor in series with the filament would be a good 
> idea. The latter also helps with achieving a voltage offset to the grid - 
> i.e. making the grid negative with respect to the filament.
>
> On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 1:45:02 AM UTC-4 Richard Scales wrote:
>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> I am starting to look at VFD displays and am reading all I can about them.
>>
>> I am trying to get a better understanding of the pros and cons of using a 
>> AC filament drive rather than an DC one.
>>
>> I am aware that on larger displays (like those monster ones from Russia) 
>> it is necessary in order to create a more even glow across segments. I 
>> wonder however how important this is for smaller segments like those in 
>> IV-22 for example.
>>
>> Making the filament drive AC adds a small degree of complexity but if the 
>> difference is visible and beneficial then I'd like to go that way.
>>
>> My project would be direct drive, no multiplexing required.
>>
>> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> - Richard
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Date codes on ETL GR10x tubes...

[gregebert]

>  but there is a set of 6 matched GR114/CD47s (will sell only as a set) 
> loads of NIMOs

Well, that's going to be the auction of the century. 

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 10:06:59 AM UTC-7 Nick wrote:

> Thanks for asking, but I really don't know yet. There's a HUGE number of 
> tubes to go through (many 1000s). A few of the exotica have been sold to 
> other collectors, but there is a set of 6 matched GR114/CD47s (will sell 
> only as a set) amongst the stuff in the store, plus many other rare tubes.
>
> I'll start doing auctions in a few months and will provide early warning 
> here. Some of the stuff is extremely rare, including F9020, NEO-5000M, 
> NEO-8000, loads of NIMOs, Pandicons, Pixies, Panaplex, Alphanumeric tubes 
> etc.
>
> On Tuesday, 30 May 2023 at 17:55:20 UTC+1 Robert wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> What would the cost be per tube, used or NIB?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Rob
>>
>> On 30 May 2023, at 17:40, 'Nick' via neonixie-l <
>> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> So here's the thing: I'm rationalising my rather large nixie collection 
>> over the next few months I don't need lots of every nixie.
>>
>>
>> I'm starting with a stash of ETL GR10Gs in varying condition - one has a 
>> broken 7 internally, 3 others are "dark" to the point of ... just 
>> useable... another 10 are in "used but good to OK condition" and the rest 
>> are NIB.
>>
>> They're a strange, early, tube, needing a Va of 250VDC and an Ra of only 
>> 10K for most digits, but 18K2 for the "1" and 14K7 for the "7", i.e. the 1 
>> & 7 also have cathode resistors... They have no Hg doping, so the life of 
>> the tube under controlled circumstances is only 5,000 hours... Early stuff.
>>
>> But they are a BEAUTIFUL tube... I mean, REALLY BEAUTIFUL (IMHO)...
>>
>> The date codes on them are just two characters, e.g. "OJ" or "RC" etc. 
>> Range of ETL logos too...
>>
>> Anyone have a decode table for these?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Saturday give away!

[gregebert]

Nice find. I hope you are still in LA and have time to visit Apex Surplus.

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:48:43 AM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:

> Greetings all,
> I was helping a client in a curios place in downtown Los Angeles called 
> Fairfax. The 1966 vintage HP 3439A 4 digit meter was sitting on a shelf.  
> He said "you can have it"
> I included three photos for all see, including the calibration tag!  Last 
> used in 1987.
> Of course this old girl will need some caps and calibration.  Time to dig 
> up a service manual!
>
>
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon Goodness

[gregebert]

I found a 3-legged surge arrestor awhile back (looked exactly like a NE-2, 
but with 3 leads and 3 electrodes), but was unable to get any visible glow 
from it (up to 500 volts) so I assume it was intended for higher voltages, 
and perhaps had a different gas or pressure. I salvaged it from something 
in the past 1-2 years, but cant remember what it was. It might have been an 
old DSL modem or TV set-top -box.

Another oddball is the spark-gap capacitor. The old Zenith TV we had in the 
late 1960's had a few of these, and it would occasionally make a zap when 
the video signal went from dark-to-light rapidly.


On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 2:45:14 PM UTC-7 Joe Croft wrote:

> Could be cheap over voltage protection as well
>
> -joe
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 3:31 PM Moses  wrote:
>
>> Most NE-2 bulbs are a perfect indicator for the 90v ring voltage.
>>
>> On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 1:14:10 PM UTC-7 Mac Doktor wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2023, at 4:01 PM, martin martin  wrote:
>>>
>>> On my clients asked me to 'take away' this 1994 Panasonic phone system.
>>> I was about to drop it off a the local e-waste center.. Instead, I 
>>> opened it up and found 12 nice little NE-2s!
>>>
>>>
>>> Lightning arrestors?
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>>
>>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>>
>>> "Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it 
>>> out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and 
>>> enthusiasm for science intact."—Carl Sagan, *Psychology Today*, 1996
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Anyone seen these in real life?

[gregebert]

They also chose to make an actual pin-base like a traditional vacuum tube; 
not a trivial accomplishment. Time will tell if they have something that is 
manufacturable and reliable.



On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 10:48:15 AM UTC-7 MichaelB wrote:

> No, but it's a nice looking tube!
>
> On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 9:44:03 AM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:
>
>> https://kepler-labs.com/
>>
>> Did these ever make it into production?
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] "Software-Defined Flyback" for Nixie Tubes

[gregebert]

My take on this is if you need to cut costs, the 10-cent microcontroller is 
definitely the way to go. It's quite amazing how much compute capability 
this thing has for the price.

For me, though, I like having the ability to remotely login thru VNC using 
WiFi, use my favorite pile of free Linux tools, and code-up all sorts of 
diagnostic checks and error-logging. It's definitely more costly (Raspberry 
Pi Zero W is now 15 USDif you can find any, plus the cost of the 
microSD card and cabling/connectors), but I dont have to worry about how 
many kBytes of code get generated, and there is a decent amount of RAM (at 
least 148Mbytes free on the system running my b7971 clock) . BTW, the 7971 
clk code was written in C, takes 25KB for the executable, and uses 0.3% of 
the RAM. No worries about a "1202 Program Alarm".

On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 6:12:38 PM UTC-7 Terry Kennedy wrote:

> On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 6:56:33 PM UTC-4 Mac Doktor wrote:
>
> I recall reading on multiple occasions that a SCSI driver was a 
> non-trivial exercise. Sort-of like "if you don't appreciate how non-trivial 
> it is don't even bother".  
>
>
> Yup. It was bad enough when there was an actual controller chip, but at 
> least the chip handled some of the handshaking internally. Doing it with 
> parallel ports alone was *quite* exciting. Fortunately the original design 
> only needed* to support the Xebec S1410 SASI/ST-506 bridge. Even that was 
> fraught with peril - the SyQuest SQ306 drive used a servo "wedge", so an 
> incautious format operation would destroy** the cartridge servo information 
> and render the cartridge unusable. To make matters worse, the field test 
> drives had matching cartridges - interchange between drives didn't yet 
> work. Ah, the bad old days...
>
> * Of course, right after release a customer showed up wanting to use a 
> tape drive
> ** Xebec eventually released a new S1410 firmware EPROM that prevented 
> this - if you happened to have a controller with that EPROM  (it wasn't the 
> default)
>
> My company had lots of experience with oddball storage - we had a Vertimag 
> 5MB(ish) floppy disk prototype. And I was involved with the Evotek ET-5540 
> disk drive. That was "interesting", but that's a story for another time. We 
> eventually went with CDC Wren drives. DEC (Evotek's other large OEM 
> customer) had a bit more inertia and had to scramble for available drives - 
> that's why the DEC RD52 might be a Quantum Q540 (more common) or an Atasi 
> 3046 (rather rare).
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: "Software-Defined Flyback" for Nixie Tubes

[gregebert]

I've never been comfortable with software doing really tight-timing loops, 
especially if you need timing resolution well-below 1usec. I'll definitely 
look into it more. My biggest concerns w/ software implementations are 
interrupts and precise knowledge of the execution time for each 
instruction. Things get tricky with branches, and downright 
non-deterministic with CPUs that do prefetching, branch-prediction, and 
caching.

I've used FPGAs for the timing-critical parts (20nsec cycle time), and 
software to tweak the hardware knobs. Nothing has gone up in smoke yet, but 
I have recorded some warm temperatures. Now that I'm wrapping-up the wooden 
case for my NIMO clock, I should know pretty soon if the HV supply will 
overheat without a fan. No worriesI have several thermal sensors in the 
case to make sure it doesn't get too warm.

The last time I did timing-critical software was for a floppy-disk 
controller over 40 years ago; the Z80 CPU running at 4Mhz had 16usec to 
read and store each byte as it came out of the controller chip and the loop 
typically took 12usec. 



On Monday, May 8, 2023 at 11:53:45 AM UTC-7 Mac Doktor wrote:

> Includes video:
>
>
> https://www.hackster.io/news/charles-lohr-turns-a-0-10-risc-v-microcontroller-into-a-software-defined-flyback-for-nixie-tubes-aabafa76aa78
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> "It gets calls when nothing else works"—W. Eugene "Doc" Scott, 
> PhD, explaining somewhat facetiously why a "TV preacher" was smoking a 
> cigar. ('80s)
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Anyone who has made a Nixie watch, what microcontroller and tube driver did you use?

[gregebert]

I started by doing an analysis of how much energy I needed to run the watch 
(which means you need to decide on which nixie tube to use, how many of 
them, and how much display-time between charges), then research the 
batteries available. Next, you have to decide how to control it, and the 
energy budget for that. Finally, which device will you use for timekeeping, 
eg DS3231.

On Saturday, May 6, 2023 at 1:35:40 PM UTC-7 Zachary wrote:

> I am planning on building a watch over the summer but I'm not sure where 
> to start.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

I've used a few different flavors of these cheap digital meters (0-500VDC, 
120VAC, 300VDC) and have not had any problemsyet.  Most of them are 
self-powered, which is handy because it doesn't require a separate power 
supply, though risky because they do create a potential source for a short. 
Everything I build has fuses, so even if one of these things shorted-out, 
it would just blow a fuse. All but one of them are in metal cases, so if 
they caught fire, it would be contained.

The most dangerous line-powered items I know of are LED bulbs; even worse 
than CFLs due to their construction. I've replaced several on the verge of 
failing, or already failed, that have obvious signs of overheating or will 
actually still hot in the socket. Hnow I gotta go burn one to see 
if the plastic is self-extinguishing. I'm pretty sure those cheap meters 
will burn on their own once ignited, but I'm not sure I want to destroy one 
in the name of science.unless I can find a *really* cheap one.

On Tuesday, May 2, 2023 at 11:54:36 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> I am a bit afraid of all those inexpensive displays made in PRC, the 
> seller often doesn't know what he is selling, the specs are wrong or 
> trunked, and I don't know their behavior with 300V DC or more...
>
> Well, I ran a few of my IN-1, I had to run a couple of them at 4mA 180V 
> and the black marks disappears completely after 4h. I can reduce to 150V 
> 2mA and still have a good glow.
> those tubes are very nice with the "normal" 5, much better than the IN-4. 
> should be nice on a 6 digit clock with a decatron for tenths of a second.
>
> Le mercredi 26 avril 2023 à 00:37:49 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>
>> Looks good. I've gotten very fond of the inexpensive digital meters on 
>> Ebay and started putting them in many of my projects.
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:16:21 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>
>>> [image: 20230425_170205.jpg]
>>> Here is  the first try for my testing devices.
>>> My HT power device, with the voltage regulated with the rheostat. next 
>>> step will be the rheostat for the output power and placing the voltmeter 
>>> after the limitation resistors and an on/off switch.
>>> The box is just to have an idea of the size.  may be I will print 
>>> something or find a more accurate box... ;-)
>>> I will add a 5V USB power supply
>>>
>>> on the left an arduino uno with a hat and a zif for testing K155id1 with 
>>> a 12 pin SIL connector for a nixie tube, here a support for IN-1.
>>> I made one for IN-12, I am making one for IN-2 and one other for IN-4.
>>>
>>> on top of the box, a 12 position manual switch. I will use a Protoboard 
>>> for better contacts.
>>>
>>> Le samedi 22 avril 2023 à 22:31:34 UTC+2, Benoit Tourret a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Thanks Terry.
>>>>
>>>> this also will help me a lot.
>>>> My electronic courses are too far to be clear in my mind...
>>>>
>>>> When I read gregebert's thread, I wanted to write the complete 
>>>> equation to calculate the resistor for a wanted current. but the result 
>>>> was 
>>>> the opposite of the reality... 
>>>> so I decided to use a potentiometer and a galva...
>>>> but you gave me the result !!!
>>>> Le samedi 22 avril 2023 à 22:13:14 UTC+2, Mac Doktor a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Reading this thread has begun to make my eyes glaze over. I find the 
>>>>> following diagram to be helpful for understanding some of what's going 
>>>>> on. 
>>>>> Perhaps it will add some clarity to the discussion. This in from Marcin 
>>>>> Saj's github and specifically concerns his PRO Nixie Tester:
>>>>>
>>>>> [image: pro-nixie-tester-how-to-use-02.jpg]
>>>>> It took a while for me to completely understand how all of this works 
>>>>> and this diagram was a huge help. I doubt that I would have worked it 
>>>>> clearly otherwise. For the record I haven't gotten around to reading the 
>>>>> JB 
>>>>> Dance book—yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Full info here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/marcinsaj/Universal-PRO-Nixie-Tester-and-Healer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now I'm using the PRO Nixie Tester with three DMMs but I've 
>>>>> purchased some DPMs for a compact, dedicated meter bridge. Someday I'll 
>>>>> get 
>>>>> around to making a panel and wiring them up. And rigging up isolated 
>>>>>

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: does anyone know the trick to pre tin the leads on mtx-90 tubes

[gregebert]

Next time I find a hopelessly stubborn item to solder, I'm going to get my 
version of "The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch"   -- acid-core solder.
I've always wanted to know if the corrosive flux can be safely and 
adequately removed, and possibly over-coated with rosin-based solder.

I rarely use this stuff; in the past it's always been for steel parts but 
that ended when I got an oxyacetylene torch and now I just braze those 
items.


[image: Image result for holy hand grenade picture]

On Tuesday, May 2, 2023 at 6:59:19 AM UTC-7 padlernped...@gmail.com wrote:

> Ditto on the stranded copper wire. One of the most frustrating things and 
> almost impossible to clean the strands well enough for the solder to wet 
> and make a reliable connection. 
>
> Randy 
>
> On May 1, 2023, at 4:58 PM, gregebert  wrote:
>
> Usually when I cant solder something it's because there is too much 
> surface oxidation. Some of it gets so bad that rosin-based flux wont 
> dissolve it, so the next step is to scrape it off with sandpaper, or a 
> dremel tool.
>
>
> So far, the worst I've encountered are
>
>- Oxidized copper leads on bulk neon bulbs from China
>- Lugs on very old switches, pots, and lamp sockets that were not 
>previously soldered
>- Really old resistors that were never used.from the 1950s and 
>1960s
>- Stranded copper wire that mysteriously corroded *beneath* the 
>insulation. I suspect there was a slow chemical reaction between the 
> copper 
>and something that outgassed from the plastic insulation.
>
>
> On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 2:00:24 PM UTC-7 Paul Andrews wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Maybe time to break the flux out? Works for me on old radios.
>>
>> On Apr 29, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Batareyka  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> mth-90 used solder with a high lead content. Therefore, for a long time 
>> of non-use, the balls on the legs of the solder oxidize and form a rather 
>> large film of oxide that prevents the metal itself from melting.
>> To do this, you need to remove the plaque to a shiny with anything, a 
>> file or a knife.
>> And after that, everything is soldered quite easily.
>> суббота, 29 апреля 2023 г. в 19:31:58 UTC+3, Jasper nagle: 
>>
>>>  Maybe I have another go at the blobs tomorrow on a few different tubes 
>>> I’ll see if age makes a difference 
>>>
>>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 at 12:23 am, Yohan Park  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just tried with my iron set to the highest temperature (480C/896F), 
>>>> added lead based solder to try to make it going but nothing happened.
>>>> So either you're soldering at insanely high temperatures or they've 
>>>> used different materials over the years... :)
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:01:11 PM UTC+2 Jasper nagle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was able to melt the blobs on the mtx-90 with a soldering iron so it 
>>>>> must be something like tin or lead 
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 at 7:56 pm, Yohan Park  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No that's not true. It's not solder but a different metal (can't 
>>>>>> recall what it is) to make it easy to solder. You won't be able to melt 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> blobs with your soldering iron though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:10:31 PM UTC+1 Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had read that the little balls on the ends of the leads are 
>>>>>>> solder. Is that not true?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 7:17:05 AM UTC-4 Jasper nagle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks for that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 7:01 PM Batareyka  
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> H3PO4
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> H3PO4 + HCl (10:1)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> пятница, 24 марта 2023 г. в 12:33:31 UTC+2, Jasper nagle: 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> tubes im having no luck putting tin to them i even managed to tin 
>>>>>>>>>> the painted surface i was working on in the process 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are 

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: does anyone know the trick to pre tin the leads on mtx-90 tubes

[gregebert]

Usually when I cant solder something it's because there is too much surface 
oxidation. Some of it gets so bad that rosin-based flux wont dissolve it, 
so the next step is to scrape it off with sandpaper, or a dremel tool.

So far, the worst I've encountered are

   - Oxidized copper leads on bulk neon bulbs from China
   - Lugs on very old switches, pots, and lamp sockets that were not 
   previously soldered
   - Really old resistors that were never used.from the 1950s and 1960s
   - Stranded copper wire that mysteriously corroded *beneath* the 
   insulation. I suspect there was a slow chemical reaction between the copper 
   and something that outgassed from the plastic insulation.


On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 2:00:24 PM UTC-7 Paul Andrews wrote:

> Interesting. Maybe time to break the flux out? Works for me on old radios.
>
> On Apr 29, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Batareyka  wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> mth-90 used solder with a high lead content. Therefore, for a long time of 
> non-use, the balls on the legs of the solder oxidize and form a rather 
> large film of oxide that prevents the metal itself from melting.
> To do this, you need to remove the plaque to a shiny with anything, a file 
> or a knife.
> And after that, everything is soldered quite easily.
> суббота, 29 апреля 2023 г. в 19:31:58 UTC+3, Jasper nagle: 
>
>>  Maybe I have another go at the blobs tomorrow on a few different tubes 
>> I’ll see if age makes a difference 
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 at 12:23 am, Yohan Park  wrote:
>>
>>> Just tried with my iron set to the highest temperature (480C/896F), 
>>> added lead based solder to try to make it going but nothing happened.
>>> So either you're soldering at insanely high temperatures or they've used 
>>> different materials over the years... :)
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:01:11 PM UTC+2 Jasper nagle wrote:
>>>
 I was able to melt the blobs on the mtx-90 with a soldering iron so it 
 must be something like tin or lead 

 On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 at 7:56 pm, Yohan Park  
 wrote:

> No that's not true. It's not solder but a different metal (can't 
> recall what it is) to make it easy to solder. You won't be able to melt 
> the 
> blobs with your soldering iron though.
>
> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:10:31 PM UTC+1 Paul Andrews wrote:
>
>> I had read that the little balls on the ends of the leads are solder. 
>> Is that not true?
>>
>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 7:17:05 AM UTC-4 Jasper nagle wrote:
>>
>>> thanks for that
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 7:01 PM Batareyka  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 H3PO4
 or
 H3PO4 + HCl (10:1)

 пятница, 24 марта 2023 г. в 12:33:31 UTC+2, Jasper nagle: 

> tubes im having no luck putting tin to them i even managed to tin 
> the painted surface i was working on in the process 
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

Looks good. I've gotten very fond of the inexpensive digital meters on Ebay 
and started putting them in many of my projects.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:16:21 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> [image: 20230425_170205.jpg]
> Here is  the first try for my testing devices.
> My HT power device, with the voltage regulated with the rheostat. next 
> step will be the rheostat for the output power and placing the voltmeter 
> after the limitation resistors and an on/off switch.
> The box is just to have an idea of the size.  may be I will print 
> something or find a more accurate box... ;-)
> I will add a 5V USB power supply
>
> on the left an arduino uno with a hat and a zif for testing K155id1 with a 
> 12 pin SIL connector for a nixie tube, here a support for IN-1.
> I made one for IN-12, I am making one for IN-2 and one other for IN-4.
>
> on top of the box, a 12 position manual switch. I will use a Protoboard 
> for better contacts.
>
> Le samedi 22 avril 2023 à 22:31:34 UTC+2, Benoit Tourret a écrit :
>
>> Thanks Terry.
>>
>> this also will help me a lot.
>> My electronic courses are too far to be clear in my mind...
>>
>> When I read gregebert's thread, I wanted to write the complete equation 
>> to calculate the resistor for a wanted current. but the result was the 
>> opposite of the reality... 
>> so I decided to use a potentiometer and a galva...
>> but you gave me the result !!!
>> Le samedi 22 avril 2023 à 22:13:14 UTC+2, Mac Doktor a écrit :
>>
>>> Reading this thread has begun to make my eyes glaze over. I find the 
>>> following diagram to be helpful for understanding some of what's going on. 
>>> Perhaps it will add some clarity to the discussion. This in from Marcin 
>>> Saj's github and specifically concerns his PRO Nixie Tester:
>>>
>>> [image: pro-nixie-tester-how-to-use-02.jpg]
>>> It took a while for me to completely understand how all of this works 
>>> and this diagram was a huge help. I doubt that I would have worked it 
>>> clearly otherwise. For the record I haven't gotten around to reading the JB 
>>> Dance book—yet.
>>>
>>> Full info here:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/marcinsaj/Universal-PRO-Nixie-Tester-and-Healer
>>>
>>>
>>> Right now I'm using the PRO Nixie Tester with three DMMs but I've 
>>> purchased some DPMs for a compact, dedicated meter bridge. Someday I'll get 
>>> around to making a panel and wiring them up. And rigging up isolated power 
>>> supplies for them.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2023, at 1:50 PM, Moses  wrote:
>>>
>>> That yh11068a module is rated for 40 watts! That is like 10 times what 
>>> you would need for most nixie clocks! Be careful at higher voltages, a 
>>> 200mA capable supply at a few hundred volts will hurt you good.
>>>
>>>
>>> Zaparooney.   x_x
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>>
>>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>>
>>> "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."—Roy Batty, *Blade 
>>> Runner*
>>>
>>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] NIMO Patents

[gregebert]

I watched an Ebay auction about 10 years ago for a lot of 4 XM1000 tubes; 
in the final seconds it went for over 1600 USD. I like their flat-screen. 
Too bad they are so rare.

Eric - What is the difference between XM1000 and XM2000 ?
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 12:28:11 PM UTC-7 Tidak Ada wrote:

> The only I know is that they won a sue against Telefunken who fringed some 
> of their patents with the development of the XM2000. Telefunken had to 
> destroy all the produced tubes, however some came at the black market. I 
> own one.
>
> eric
>
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: 'Grahame' via neonixie-l [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] 
> Verzonden: dinsdag 25 april 2023 18:17
> Aan: neonixie-l
> Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] NIMO Patents
>
> Hi
>
> Does anyone know any patent numbers for the IEE NIMO tubes please?
>
> All I have found so far is Pat Pending.
>
> Ta Grahame
>
>
> -- 
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> .
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: NIMO Patents

[gregebert]

I think that was a follow-on patent to make the single-character NIMO tube 
into a multi-character version. Some of the sales literature shows a 
4-digit display. Neat idea, but by then 7-segment LEDs were getting a lot 
cheaper and led to the death of NIMO, Nixie, Numitron, and 
electroluminescent.

It's really amazing how many oddball (by today's standard) technologies 
were used for numerical displays.  Fifty years from now, I doubt people 
will drool over LCD and OLED displays the way we do with NIMO tubesbut 
you never know.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:52:22 AM UTC-7 Dekatron42 wrote:

> Here's the NIMO patent: 
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US3793551A/en?assignee=ELECTRONIC+ENGINEERS+IND+Inc
>
> /Martin
>
> On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 19:48:34 UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:
>
>> I should have said that it is not the actual NIMO patent but from 
>> Industrial Electronic Engineers, lnc from which you can start your search, 
>> sorry for any confusion.
>>
>> /Martin
>>
>> On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 19:40:13 UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:
>>
>>> Here's one to start you off with: 
>>> https://patents.google.com/patent/US3761169A/en?oq=3%2c761%2c169
>>>
>>> There are a few other interesting patents in the reference section too!
>>>
>>> /Martin
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 18:16:52 UTC+2 Grahame wrote:
>>>
 Hi 

 Does anyone know any patent numbers for the IEE NIMO tubes please? 

 All I have found so far is Pat Pending. 

 Ta Grahame 




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Re: [neonixie-l] ‘Burn’ marks on rear of B-7971 tubes

[gregebert]

I've only seen 2 types of functional failures in 7971's

   - One completely-dead segment (A gift to me; that's how I got started 
   with 7971's)
   - Adjacent segments shorted together (it just happened one-day on my 
   8-tube clock w/o warning; very peculiar)

I have one exhibit-only device with a crack in the base, but that's from 
mishandling. The same tube has two black spots on the mica right next to 
rivets, and I dont know what to conclude from that.

They are pretty rugged, especially considering their massive size  
/mechanical complexity, and versatile because you can display numerals, 
text, and a few special characters. That said, they are butt-ugly and 
getting expensive.

With 9 tubes that all work, you're in great shape to build a 6-tube clock 
and have spares.




On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 2:23:53 PM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:

> I have a variety of B7971's with different micas, 'burn' marks, pins in 
> the top of the envelope etc etc. I have yet to have a tube fail on me in 
> day to day use after many years. I don't think it's an indication of any 
> life expectancy for these tubes they appear to be built like tanks.
>
> Now that I have said that, I await the inundation of messages talking 
> about B7971 failures.. LOL
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 10:42 AM Robert Norman  
> wrote:
>
>> I have 9 tubes, 5 show no sign of any marks, 2 show marks on a couple of 
>> the connections and 2 show more extensive marks, all work perfectly.
>>
>> Are the ones with marks more likely to have a shorter life?
>>
>> Rob
>>
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>>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Help with 12" monochrome CRT circuit TDA1175/TDA1180

[gregebert]

I found this online (service manual for Ball Brothers video monitor). At 
the end of the document is a schematic, and you can see the pinout numbers 
(for the 10-pin card-edge connector) called-out on the schematic. For 
example, pins 1 and 10 are GND, 2,3, and 4 are for the external brightness 
control.

I used to test/repair terminals, printers, and small-business computers as 
a summer job, and encountered several video monitors from different 
manufacturers with this same pinout.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ballBrothers/5-017-1017B_Ball_TTL_Series_Service_Manual_Oct76.pdf

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:

> There was a standard 10-pin interface on video monitors back in the 
> 1980's, so you probably have that. I know the video, vert-sync, and horiz 
> sync were on the connector. Check pin 7; I recall that was for power and 
> usually had a fuse on the PCB board. You should be able to find a pinout on 
> the web.
>
> On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 4:29:26 AM UTC-7 Paolo Cravero wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>> A friend gave me a 12" monochrome CRT with its circuits that was taken 
>> off an injection molding machine (most likely from the control console 
>> Sandretto Selec 90). As I haven't been able to find documentation I started 
>> reversing the circuit to understand the meaning of the 10 pins on the card 
>> edge connector.
>>
>> There is the PSU, the HV generator and two ICs TDA1175P (vertical 
>> deflection) and TDA1180P (horizontal processor). I write here in hope 
>> someone was into these circuits and can help me understand what I need to 
>> get it working.
>>
>> Checks completed so far: fuses don't blow, CRT filament glows, there's a 
>> 14 kHz whine (I cheated using an audio spectrum App), 12Vdc is present. 
>> Nothing on screen.
>>
>> The closest documentation I could find is this service manual 
>> http://oz1db.dk/hp/omnivision_man_lp06xx_rev0_0611.pdf, however I'm 
>> missing something.
>>
>> The 10-pin connector has 3x GND, 1x 12Vdc (output), the 3 contacts for 
>> (what I think is) the remote brightness control, 1x not connected. I am 
>> left with one contact going to a 2N which should be "video input" and 
>> another going to the TDA1180P horizontal processor. Where is the VSYNC 
>> input? Not needed?
>>
>> I've assembled an Arduino with the TVout library and got no reaction from 
>> the CRT both with just the [video signal] and [video signal + TVout sync 
>> output to the contact going to the TDA1180P]. The only difference between 
>> the two input configurations is that when I add the sync signal I hear a 
>> very low frequency buzz coming out of the screen circuits. I haven't been 
>> lucky enough to find a schematic diagram with both these ICs and just one 
>> sync input, and I've finished my guesses.
>>
>> I wonder if someone in this great community has experience with this 
>> circuit configuration and can suggest what kind of signals it is expecting. 
>> Also, should it show something with no input signal, or at least some 
>> noise? I know the dangers of EHT and I would try all low-voltage checks 
>> first.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Paolo
>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Help with 12" monochrome CRT circuit TDA1175/TDA1180

[gregebert]

There was a standard 10-pin interface on video monitors back in the 1980's, 
so you probably have that. I know the video, vert-sync, and horiz sync were 
on the connector. Check pin 7; I recall that was for power and usually had 
a fuse on the PCB board. You should be able to find a pinout on the web.

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 4:29:26 AM UTC-7 Paolo Cravero wrote:

> Hello.
> A friend gave me a 12" monochrome CRT with its circuits that was taken off 
> an injection molding machine (most likely from the control console 
> Sandretto Selec 90). As I haven't been able to find documentation I started 
> reversing the circuit to understand the meaning of the 10 pins on the card 
> edge connector.
>
> There is the PSU, the HV generator and two ICs TDA1175P (vertical 
> deflection) and TDA1180P (horizontal processor). I write here in hope 
> someone was into these circuits and can help me understand what I need to 
> get it working.
>
> Checks completed so far: fuses don't blow, CRT filament glows, there's a 
> 14 kHz whine (I cheated using an audio spectrum App), 12Vdc is present. 
> Nothing on screen.
>
> The closest documentation I could find is this service manual 
> http://oz1db.dk/hp/omnivision_man_lp06xx_rev0_0611.pdf, however I'm 
> missing something.
>
> The 10-pin connector has 3x GND, 1x 12Vdc (output), the 3 contacts for 
> (what I think is) the remote brightness control, 1x not connected. I am 
> left with one contact going to a 2N which should be "video input" and 
> another going to the TDA1180P horizontal processor. Where is the VSYNC 
> input? Not needed?
>
> I've assembled an Arduino with the TVout library and got no reaction from 
> the CRT both with just the [video signal] and [video signal + TVout sync 
> output to the contact going to the TDA1180P]. The only difference between 
> the two input configurations is that when I add the sync signal I hear a 
> very low frequency buzz coming out of the screen circuits. I haven't been 
> lucky enough to find a schematic diagram with both these ICs and just one 
> sync input, and I've finished my guesses.
>
> I wonder if someone in this great community has experience with this 
> circuit configuration and can suggest what kind of signals it is expecting. 
> Also, should it show something with no input signal, or at least some 
> noise? I know the dangers of EHT and I would try all low-voltage checks 
> first.
>
> Thank you,
> Paolo
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

Ben - You can just reduce the resistor value slightly to increase the 
current. At 180V, you had 2mA with a 32K resistor; using ohms law, the 
voltage-drop across the resistor is 32K * 2mA = 64V. Since the power supply 
is 180V, the voltage across the nixie tube is about 116V.

To calculate the value for 2.9mA, assume the voltage on the nixie tube is 
still 116V. In reality it will be a bit higher due to more current, but for 
simplicity assume its the same. So, the new resistor value is 64V/2.9mA = 
22K (a common value).



On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 1:23:24 PM UTC-7 Adrian Godwin wrote:

> When I wanted a higher voltage supply to refresh some tubes, I found an 
> electrophoresis supply on ebay (Shandon Vokam 400-100). It provides up to 
> 400V at 100mA with voltage/current metering and did a good job for me. I 
> think it cost me about £40.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:19 PM Benoit Tourret  
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know how to rise the intensity...
>> I wish I had a laboratory DC power supply, but mine stops at 30V.
>> so I put a  NCH6300HV to raise the voltage. If I can adjust the voltage, 
>> I cannot adjust anything else. 
>> however I added a voltmeter and ammeter to check what I'm sending to the 
>> tube. Do you know if there is an adjustable power supply that can be used 
>> for our beloved tubes?
>> So, I regulate the voltage and I check that I do not exceed the desired 
>> values.
>>
>> should I change the 32K resistor between the PS and the tube? could a 
>> potentiometer be used?
>>
>> So I did see an improvement. but some need to be "heated". I of course 
>> doesn't speak of temperature, but they need 10 to 20 seconds to get their 
>> full glow, a bit like a neon tube with an old starter.
>> They are 52 years old now and never been used.
>>
>> Le vendredi 21 avril 2023 à 16:20:59 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>>
>>> The IN-1 datasheet says 2.5mA typical operating current, so you should 
>>> try cleaning the other 3 tubes at just under 3mA. The other 7 tubes might 
>>> clean-up on their own at normal current if the usage is balanced.
>>>
>>> So did you see some improvement ? 
>>>
>>> On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 12:14:05 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>>
>>>> I ran each tube with 180V 2mA / two hours, turning each plate for 2 
>>>> minutes.
>>>>
>>>> on 10 tubes:
>>>>
>>>> 7 are OK
>>>> 3 are not perfect.
>>>>
>>>> I will wait to be able to lit them all together.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le jeudi 20 avril 2023 à 01:27:40 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't resist asking google Bard this question: Are IN-1 nixie 
>>>>> tubes reliable ?
>>>>> Well, here's the answer. Feel free to laugh.love the part about 
>>>>> the filaments. Geez, maybe that's why I had so much trouble with mine ?
>>>>>
>>>>> IN-1 nixie tubes are generally reliable, but they can fail over time. 
>>>>> The most common failure mode is a leak in the vacuum tube. This can 
>>>>> happen 
>>>>> due to a number of factors, including manufacturing defects, physical 
>>>>> damage, or exposure to extreme temperatures.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a leak develops, the tube will slowly fill with air and the 
>>>>> filaments will eventually burn out. This can happen over a period of 
>>>>> months 
>>>>> or even years. To prevent leaks, it is important to store IN-1 nixie 
>>>>> tubes 
>>>>> in a cool, dry place and to avoid dropping or banging them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another potential failure mode is a failure of the heater filament. 
>>>>> This can happen due to a number of factors, including overheating, 
>>>>> overvoltage, or physical damage. If the heater filament fails, the tube 
>>>>> will not light up.
>>>>>
>>>>> To prevent heater filament failures, it is important to use a 
>>>>> regulated power supply and to avoid exceeding the maximum operating 
>>>>> voltage.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 2:03:54 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I never had an IN-1 run long enough to get poisoned. Mine developed 
>>>>>> internal shorts, resulting in 2 numerals glowing at the same time.
>>>>>> From what I've heard, nixie degradation increases exponentially with 
>>>>&

[neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

The IN-1 datasheet says 2.5mA typical operating current, so you should try 
cleaning the other 3 tubes at just under 3mA. The other 7 tubes might 
clean-up on their own at normal current if the usage is balanced.

So did you see some improvement ? 

On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 12:14:05 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> I ran each tube with 180V 2mA / two hours, turning each plate for 2 
> minutes.
>
> on 10 tubes:
>
> 7 are OK
> 3 are not perfect.
>
> I will wait to be able to lit them all together.
>
>
> Le jeudi 20 avril 2023 à 01:27:40 UTC+2, gregebert a écrit :
>
>> I couldn't resist asking google Bard this question: Are IN-1 nixie tubes 
>> reliable ?
>> Well, here's the answer. Feel free to laugh.love the part about the 
>> filaments. Geez, maybe that's why I had so much trouble with mine ?
>>
>> IN-1 nixie tubes are generally reliable, but they can fail over time. The 
>> most common failure mode is a leak in the vacuum tube. This can happen due 
>> to a number of factors, including manufacturing defects, physical damage, 
>> or exposure to extreme temperatures.
>>
>> If a leak develops, the tube will slowly fill with air and the filaments 
>> will eventually burn out. This can happen over a period of months or even 
>> years. To prevent leaks, it is important to store IN-1 nixie tubes in a 
>> cool, dry place and to avoid dropping or banging them.
>>
>> Another potential failure mode is a failure of the heater filament. This 
>> can happen due to a number of factors, including overheating, overvoltage, 
>> or physical damage. If the heater filament fails, the tube will not light 
>> up.
>>
>> To prevent heater filament failures, it is important to use a regulated 
>> power supply and to avoid exceeding the maximum operating voltage.
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 2:03:54 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:
>>
>>> I never had an IN-1 run long enough to get poisoned. Mine developed 
>>> internal shorts, resulting in 2 numerals glowing at the same time.
>>> From what I've heard, nixie degradation increases exponentially with 
>>> current, so you want to stay as close as possible to normal operating 
>>> current. Try running the worst digit continuously for a few hours at 20% 
>>> higher current, and see if that helps. I was (briefly) drawn to the IN-1 
>>> over 10 years ago because of the large size for the low cost; I bought a 
>>> case of 25 for around 40USD including shipping. Only a few survive today 
>>> that weren't dissected or tortured in a microwave oven (yeah, pretty 
>>> hilarious but kinda toxic because of the bakelite).
>>>
>>> A few of the IN-18's in my clock have shown signs of poisoning even 
>>> though I run a cleansing routine for 1 hour every night. This is 
>>> most-visible on the first day of the month for the months digit, and it can 
>>> take a few days to recover. This clock has 14 tubes; kinda ridiculous but 
>>> it looks impressive. It was inspired by the movie "Tomorrowland", which has 
>>> a brief scene with two 6-digit IN-18 clocks. I'm certain one of our 
>>> neonixie members is the creator of that clock (that was an invitation for 
>>> you to take a well-deserved bow...).
>>>
>>> Tubes that run 0-9 during the day need no cleansing (unit seconds, unit 
>>> minutes, unit hours). Tubes the run 0-5 during the day are cleansed by 
>>> running 6-9 (tens seconds, tens minutes). Tubes that are static, or near 
>>> static (tens hours, month, day, year) run 0-9 for cleansing. 
>>>
>>> The static tubes, notably the 4-digit year, show very little signs of 
>>> poisoning because I have swapped them around to put the 
>>> most-vulnerable-to-poisoning tubes where they run 0-9 during the day.
>>>
>>> I havn't seen any signs of poisoning on Burroughs tubes.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 11:39:54 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello, I have some IN-1 that seems to be poisoned. poisoned or rather 
>>>> oxided, as they seems to  be really new. it is fine mesh from September 
>>>> 1971.
>>>> two of them are fine after one or two day, tree other doesn't show any 
>>>> improvement.
>>>>
>>>> I read that I must overload them a while but how many and how long 
>>>> should I keep one digit on before light the next digit ? is it 1 second or 
>>>> one day...
>>>>
>>>> by the way, as I read that this tube doesn't have mercury inside, can 
>>>> it be unpoisonned ?
>>>>
>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Need advice on a new scope...

[gregebert]

I'm really happy with my HP16500A, and they are reasonably priced if you 
shop around. About 10 years ago I got mine with two dual-channel cards 
(100Mhz/200msps) and two logic analyzer cards (OK, dont laugh50Mhz / 80 
channels) and probes, pods, and manuals, for about 250 USD including 
shipping. It seems like a weird scope because it only has 1 knob, and uses 
a touchscreen. I remember when it first came out around 1989, and it was 
THE scope to have.

Digital scopes are a must-have so you can trigger/capture single events. 
There are better versions (16500B, 16500C) that have hard drives and allow 
you to login via Xwindows.

None of my designs run faster than 50Mhz, so the scope/logic analyzer works 
fine for me. I bought a second unit as a spare, but found enough good cards 
at low cost to have a second 4-channel scope + logic analyzer. 

For nixie work, and especially CRT/NIMO work, get a set of 100x probes.

That said, your Tek scope probably just has a dried-out electrolytic cap in 
the power supply.

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 8:44:50 PM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:

> My Tek 2236 is nearly 30 moons old and no longer stays on for more than a 
> few minutes.  I am sure it's fixable, but on the other hand maybe time for 
> a new digital!
>
> What do you guys suggest for general use and of course clock fixing?
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

I couldn't resist asking google Bard this question: Are IN-1 nixie tubes 
reliable ?
Well, here's the answer. Feel free to laugh.love the part about the 
filaments. Geez, maybe that's why I had so much trouble with mine ?

IN-1 nixie tubes are generally reliable, but they can fail over time. The 
most common failure mode is a leak in the vacuum tube. This can happen due 
to a number of factors, including manufacturing defects, physical damage, 
or exposure to extreme temperatures.

If a leak develops, the tube will slowly fill with air and the filaments 
will eventually burn out. This can happen over a period of months or even 
years. To prevent leaks, it is important to store IN-1 nixie tubes in a 
cool, dry place and to avoid dropping or banging them.

Another potential failure mode is a failure of the heater filament. This 
can happen due to a number of factors, including overheating, overvoltage, 
or physical damage. If the heater filament fails, the tube will not light 
up.

To prevent heater filament failures, it is important to use a regulated 
power supply and to avoid exceeding the maximum operating voltage.

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 2:03:54 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:

> I never had an IN-1 run long enough to get poisoned. Mine developed 
> internal shorts, resulting in 2 numerals glowing at the same time.
> From what I've heard, nixie degradation increases exponentially with 
> current, so you want to stay as close as possible to normal operating 
> current. Try running the worst digit continuously for a few hours at 20% 
> higher current, and see if that helps. I was (briefly) drawn to the IN-1 
> over 10 years ago because of the large size for the low cost; I bought a 
> case of 25 for around 40USD including shipping. Only a few survive today 
> that weren't dissected or tortured in a microwave oven (yeah, pretty 
> hilarious but kinda toxic because of the bakelite).
>
> A few of the IN-18's in my clock have shown signs of poisoning even though 
> I run a cleansing routine for 1 hour every night. This is most-visible on 
> the first day of the month for the months digit, and it can take a few days 
> to recover. This clock has 14 tubes; kinda ridiculous but it looks 
> impressive. It was inspired by the movie "Tomorrowland", which has a brief 
> scene with two 6-digit IN-18 clocks. I'm certain one of our neonixie 
> members is the creator of that clock (that was an invitation for you to 
> take a well-deserved bow...).
>
> Tubes that run 0-9 during the day need no cleansing (unit seconds, unit 
> minutes, unit hours). Tubes the run 0-5 during the day are cleansed by 
> running 6-9 (tens seconds, tens minutes). Tubes that are static, or near 
> static (tens hours, month, day, year) run 0-9 for cleansing. 
>
> The static tubes, notably the 4-digit year, show very little signs of 
> poisoning because I have swapped them around to put the 
> most-vulnerable-to-poisoning tubes where they run 0-9 during the day.
>
> I havn't seen any signs of poisoning on Burroughs tubes.
>
> On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 11:39:54 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:
>
>> Hello, I have some IN-1 that seems to be poisoned. poisoned or rather 
>> oxided, as they seems to  be really new. it is fine mesh from September 
>> 1971.
>> two of them are fine after one or two day, tree other doesn't show any 
>> improvement.
>>
>> I read that I must overload them a while but how many and how long should 
>> I keep one digit on before light the next digit ? is it 1 second or one 
>> day...
>>
>> by the way, as I read that this tube doesn't have mercury inside, can it 
>> be unpoisonned ?
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Scaler with Dekatron Counter

[gregebert]

Historical mix of assembly techniquesPC board (looks single-sided), 
point-to-point components on sockets and terminal strips.
Does it have that wonderful aroma of conformal coating often found in 
vintage equipment ?

Too bad it doesn't have 6 or 7 dekatrons instead of 5. Would have made a 
neat clock.

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:24:11 AM UTC-7 Mac Doktor wrote:

> On Apr 19, 2023, at 2:16 PM, Dekatron42  wrote:
>
> Did you get any sort of documentation with it?
>
>
> Of course not. ;)
>
>
>
> The plastic window in front of the mechanical counter tends to come loose 
> and drop inside the case and that means that dust enters the mechanical 
> counter which makes it count poorly. 
>
>
> Still in place on this one. Without the analyzer I have no way to hook my 
> probe up. I know where to find the circuitry but then I still have to come 
> up with HV connectors and cables. 
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> “...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, it 
> said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close up.”—Carl 
> Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", *Cosmos*, 1980
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: unpoison a IN-1

[gregebert]

I never had an IN-1 run long enough to get poisoned. Mine developed 
internal shorts, resulting in 2 numerals glowing at the same time.
>From what I've heard, nixie degradation increases exponentially with 
current, so you want to stay as close as possible to normal operating 
current. Try running the worst digit continuously for a few hours at 20% 
higher current, and see if that helps. I was (briefly) drawn to the IN-1 
over 10 years ago because of the large size for the low cost; I bought a 
case of 25 for around 40USD including shipping. Only a few survive today 
that weren't dissected or tortured in a microwave oven (yeah, pretty 
hilarious but kinda toxic because of the bakelite).

A few of the IN-18's in my clock have shown signs of poisoning even though 
I run a cleansing routine for 1 hour every night. This is most-visible on 
the first day of the month for the months digit, and it can take a few days 
to recover. This clock has 14 tubes; kinda ridiculous but it looks 
impressive. It was inspired by the movie "Tomorrowland", which has a brief 
scene with two 6-digit IN-18 clocks. I'm certain one of our neonixie 
members is the creator of that clock (that was an invitation for you to 
take a well-deserved bow...).

Tubes that run 0-9 during the day need no cleansing (unit seconds, unit 
minutes, unit hours). Tubes the run 0-5 during the day are cleansed by 
running 6-9 (tens seconds, tens minutes). Tubes that are static, or near 
static (tens hours, month, day, year) run 0-9 for cleansing. 

The static tubes, notably the 4-digit year, show very little signs of 
poisoning because I have swapped them around to put the 
most-vulnerable-to-poisoning tubes where they run 0-9 during the day.

I havn't seen any signs of poisoning on Burroughs tubes.

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 11:39:54 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> Hello, I have some IN-1 that seems to be poisoned. poisoned or rather 
> oxided, as they seems to  be really new. it is fine mesh from September 
> 1971.
> two of them are fine after one or two day, tree other doesn't show any 
> improvement.
>
> I read that I must overload them a while but how many and how long should 
> I keep one digit on before light the next digit ? is it 1 second or one 
> day...
>
> by the way, as I read that this tube doesn't have mercury inside, can it 
> be unpoisonned ?
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Just finished making my Nixie clock using IN-1 Nixie tubes and MTX-90 Indicator tubes

[gregebert]

I hope you have better luck with IN-1's than I did...I found them to be 
very unreliable.

You can always put them in a microwave oven..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYUMy0P560k




On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 6:54:18 AM UTC-7 Jasper nagle wrote:

> thanks if the clock gets better one day i would love to see a pic haha
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 9:42 PM martin martin  wrote:
>
>> looks fab!  I made a similar one using Walnut and 6 digits. Can't show 
>> pic now as the clock in the clock hostpital
>>
>>
>>
>> ~
>> *mcve...@gmail.com*
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 3:10 AM Jasper nagle  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> thanks im very happy with how the case turned out i found the piece of 
>>> wood when i was walking past and thought it would look good
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 6:04 PM newxito  wrote:
>>>
 Looks great! The case is really nice.

 Jasper nagle schrieb am Sonntag, 16. April 2023 um 11:48:48 UTC+2:

> if you have any questions or would like more photos feel free to 
> contact me.
> The the case is made out of jarrah wood and the main board is just a 
> simple kit from online didn't have time to make my own for when i needed 
> this
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: AC VFD Filament Driver Question

[gregebert]

I use a mains-powered 2.5VAC center-tapped transformer for my NIMO clock, 
and apply a DC bias to the center-tap. Basically the same as your approach, 
but not running at 100kHz. The DC bias comes from a DAC (with an OP-amp 
buffer), so I can use software to control the offset, rather than a pot. No 
need for LC filters, etc.

The transformer is rated at 3amps, even though 6 NIMO tubes only require 
1.2amps max. Also, each tube has it's own fuse and series resistor to 
reduce the inrush current. The software-controlled DAC is also necessary so 
I can have the FPGA monitor analog signals to check the fuses, filaments, 
and resistors, and that has to be timed correctly to the AC line and the 
offset has to be different for making these measurements than for regular 
operation. It was probably overkill, but I enjoyed the design challenge.

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:25:57 PM UTC-7 ZY wrote:

> Hello. I'm working on a driver for my VFD filaments. Say I need a 
> Vfilament of 1.6V, and a current of 40mA, such as with a small VFD.
>
> So far I have a square wave driver set up, basically for my two filament 
> pins I can alternate the two pins between 1.6 and 0 with some H bridge at 
> maybe 100KHz. If I connect the filament load to this, it's the equivalent 
> of using a 3.2V Vpp square wave biased at 0v. See Sim Link 1. I put two 40 
> ohm resistors as a stand in for 2 VFD tubes filaments in parallel.
>
> However, I'd like to add some sort of smoothing and DC bias. I was 
> thinking of using a small transformer, such as this one:
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/445/750315240-3096542.pdf
> Applying a 100KHz RC low pass filter to the output, and approximating the 
> turn ratio at 1:1 (it's 1:1.1 in the datasheet but ignoring that for now), 
> I have a simulation below as Sim Link 2.
>
> The problem here is I seem to be wasting a huge amount of power just 
> driving the transformer on the primary size. The plot on the very far left 
> shows I'm delivering 2.2A to the transformer. I guess I could find a larger 
> transformer with a higher inductance, or increase my switching frequency, 
> but I'm not sure if I'm on the right design path here.
>
> Also, it seems like some of my issues stem from my LC filter. If I remove 
> that, the simulation shows more reasonable primary currents of 100mA. See 
> Sim Link 2. I don't really remember my ECE courses from a long time ago, so 
> I'm not sure what is going on here.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>
> Sim Link 1:
>
> https://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCDsB0AcYCYCsBTAtLEAGaBOWuYALFrgGwDMFRSSkSZIuuISrWr6YYAUAG7hE4Mh24IQRTB3FgscudjiKpipP0HiKZTGJDJG08PIU4pSitGJgkuBGSQUkBSLgqqeAcw3DRQsLexsT28tHSESDkieAHdvSXAA+KweACdWBB0M9J0AjhIYiQV-cSIyIgTxZNjS8sRMJCy6oOqyiuy25LS6RibujsKChpzxPuLm1kgerKHwLKq2+IQSCSkC3X09ZY35pekGTdFcgt3ZzAjT8fOxk7H5q6yai53lxeWm5IB7QIhRJGtaViKcqGDgUHhfNg-PRYSRuBDQNg4LCQvSAsEQ8BQcCOMD0QE4CAyRRYSDwZA8IA
>
> Sim Link 2:
>
> https://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCDsB0AcYCYCsBTAtLEAGaBOWuYALFrgGwDMFRSSkSZIuuISrWr6YYAUAG7hE4Mh24IQRTB3FgscudjiKpipP0HiKZTGJDJG08PIU4pSitGJgkuBGSQUkBSLgqqeAcw3DRQsLexsT28tHSESDkieAHdvSXAA+KweACdWBB0M9J0AjhIeMDIWBBJwLIiylRx5WWY6+oaWMGhSAixato7MNGbEWAYsCgRZMGosLOaseiIie2ItSARSGRbp2aR5skXhokVmGIkFf3FZ3eOggSIhvVKr8SWqw-BAyOg1WIrCvOuvoI+fkQSa4PIJeO43b73RYvA6nSrZeHJAAOIBEmUwaL0DBAbiiXkx+lRWEwCGhUQ+ZDOASQE1yqUOonKlMR4B4AGMJMy+pyqeJXsZ2oxmrAtHZ4IMiIRILpqu16XQhVkFQk+YcDjScuJledkrFtUqJlldaxIIqMcTEQdzvESnkpFahITbViDAdnU7Sjr2RCJCTPUbFMYIDgiIgMuQyKT8JJyIG5QB7QLB8AbWhsNgWVWqig8RNsZNLSRuBBvRQQCBanG51jPSDgRxgeg1nAV54thjIaujNuHfDNyw41lAA
>
> Sim Link 3, no LC Filter:
>
> https://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCDsB0AcYCYCsBTAtLEAGaBOWuYALFrgGwDMFRSSkSZIuuISrWr6YYAUAG7hE4Mh24IQRTB3FgscudjiKpipP0HiKZTGJDJG08PIU4pSitGJgkuBGSQUkBSLgqqeAcw3DRQsLexsT28tHSESDkieAHdvSXAA+KweACdWBB0M9J0AjhIeMDIWBBJwLIiylRx5WWY6+oaWMGhSAixato6zRGsiOyJILApEXEgyCDRq2AQKWG1ISAQ7OhE2SZbp2fnF5bGhxWYYiQV-cSIyIgTxZIEiCnESvPu9LCrj8EDI6DVYisKnmQiIK-Z7-CTPBCvIJeO4PUqwvSLT5Hc6XRCYJBZdFBAAOIBEmUwBL0DBAbiiXmJ+nxUIQSKivwuV2yzOSaRWlVYY1ZxyOmJy4g5p2BXMY2P5nOSsSFWWJ2KlzPijwkUiOumpyupCs1pOVwuSAGM9PDMHqsl9jBApmQRAhRhQsJJRrgsNcWu0USdykz5TwAPaBK3gJDWWisRSXQwcCj+8NByGSNxsHAyPThmMBtgQSDgRxgejhnAQVM4MjIWNgNxBkj4QuWMngHhAA
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Neonixie Spam Messages

[gregebert]

Are there any patterns/themes in the pending items that make those postings 
potentially suspicious, such as words or phrases ?
I remember back in the 1980's, many email and USENET users such as myself 
would deliberately add words to our postings to clog-up the spy servers 
purportedly used by intelligence servers. Maybe that's come full-circle now 
to haunt me.

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 7:04:07 AM UTC-7 Nick Andrews wrote:

> Google is doing this across the board more and more, testing their ability 
> to micromanage the flow of information and prepare to interfere with their 
> competition and upcoming elections even more...  We've seen it in many 
> groups and gmail.  I need to find a non-gmail to migrate to.  Groups.io is 
> better for groups too.
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:49 AM 'Grahame' via neonixie-l <
> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> For some reason Google is identifying a lot more messages as spam and 
>> putting them in the moderator's pending folder. We might have one or two 
>> a month but more recently it can be several a day. I just released three 
>> messages from yesterday. Another odd thing, is that at least one message 
>> that had been pending came through by email to me, the selection I have 
>> set for myself, but then it doesn't appear in the thread on the group 
>> webpage.
>>
>> I am trying to remember to look at the pending folder everyday to 
>> release held messages. Please PM me if you are seeing a problem with any 
>> particular posting.
>>
>> Grahame (and Nick and Nick)
>>
>> Moderators
>>
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>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] NIMO

[gregebert]

Hard to say. 10,000 hours is 30 years worth of display time at 1 
hour-per-day which is probably reasonable. The problem is what were the 
assumptions, or test conditions, that led to that lifetime ? And was it the 
phosphor that burned-out, or the filaments ? We really dont know. I 
speculated that for equipment that is used for an 8-hour shift, 5 days per 
week, you would have a service life of 5 years (reasonable), and roughly 
1250 power-cycles if the equipment is turned-off at the end of the day. 
However, without knowing the failure mechanism, it's a guess on how one 
should operate the tubes.

I thought about getting an NOS vacuum tube, and power-cycle the filaments 
to the point-of-failure; not the same exact filament, but it's a useful 
datapoint. OK, run 2 tubesone with inrush current limiting, and the 
other without. Sure as  wont be doing that with a NIMO 
tube...even the mere *thought* of that makes me cringe.

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 1:26:22 PM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:

> A PIR is a must. Datasheet for the BA-P31 says 10,000 hrs at 100 
> Foot-lambert (FL). Is there any reason to think that these should age 
> differently from a regular CRT?
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 1:19 PM gregebert  wrote:
>
>> now the BIG question..how long will the NIMO tubes last ?? I've done 
>> a limited amount of runtime on mine, less than 50 hours, and I can already 
>> see very faint phosphor burn with a UV lamp. My anode current is around 
>> 30ua (varies by digit, but averaging around 30ua which is the datasheet 
>> spec). I also wonder how long the filaments will last (each tube has two 
>> parallel filaments), either from power-cycling or total runtime. I have 
>> inrush current-limiting on the filaments so they dont get stressed as much, 
>> per recommendations on how radio/TV stations prolong the life of their 
>> expensive transmitter tubes.
>>
>> I have a PIR sensor to shutoff the HV after a programmable time 
>> (currently 100 seconds), and another programmable delay to shutoff the 
>> filaments. The filament timeout is the one I'm not sure how to optimize; I 
>> was thinking of running up to 26 hours so I could do multiple activations 
>> per day without cycling the filaments. I do have a front-panel switch to 
>> override the PIR sensor so that the display will stay off, and consequently 
>> force the filaments to time-out.
>>
>> I dont have enough NIMO tubes to experiment with and determine the best 
>> timeout to maximize lifespan. I'm hoping it will end-up like the Voyager 
>> spacecraft, which were overdesigned and have outlasted the wildest 
>> expectations of how long they will function.
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 12:35:38 PM UTC-7 jörg wrote:
>>
>>> The TH-19A is pretty interesting but unobtainium.
>>> So I have switched to the green neon indicators, which I've ordered some 
>>> time ago at aliexpress.
>>> Same type as gregebert use, I guess. I've mounted them a bit too far 
>>> from the center.
>>> The nimos are dimmed based on a LDR, so I have to pwm the indicator 
>>> bulbs, to sync to the nimo brightness.
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: nimo-colon.jpeg]
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 3:46:38 AM UTC+2 Audrey wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have automated searches setup aswell but sometimes they just miss 
>>>> things
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023, 9:24 PM Mac Doktor  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 4, 2023, at 9:00 PM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like they all sold out though. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He must have just gotten them. I've never seen them before and I have 
>>>>> a search for "magic eye" that I check every day. I go through his stock 
>>>>> periodically as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>>>>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> “...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The 
>>>>> stars, it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close 
>>>>> up.”—Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", *Cosmos*, 1980
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>>> an emai

Re: [neonixie-l] NIMO

[gregebert]

now the BIG question..how long will the NIMO tubes last ?? I've done a 
limited amount of runtime on mine, less than 50 hours, and I can already 
see very faint phosphor burn with a UV lamp. My anode current is around 
30ua (varies by digit, but averaging around 30ua which is the datasheet 
spec). I also wonder how long the filaments will last (each tube has two 
parallel filaments), either from power-cycling or total runtime. I have 
inrush current-limiting on the filaments so they dont get stressed as much, 
per recommendations on how radio/TV stations prolong the life of their 
expensive transmitter tubes.

I have a PIR sensor to shutoff the HV after a programmable time (currently 
100 seconds), and another programmable delay to shutoff the filaments. The 
filament timeout is the one I'm not sure how to optimize; I was thinking of 
running up to 26 hours so I could do multiple activations per day without 
cycling the filaments. I do have a front-panel switch to override the PIR 
sensor so that the display will stay off, and consequently force the 
filaments to time-out.

I dont have enough NIMO tubes to experiment with and determine the best 
timeout to maximize lifespan. I'm hoping it will end-up like the Voyager 
spacecraft, which were overdesigned and have outlasted the wildest 
expectations of how long they will function.

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 12:35:38 PM UTC-7 jörg wrote:

> The TH-19A is pretty interesting but unobtainium.
> So I have switched to the green neon indicators, which I've ordered some 
> time ago at aliexpress.
> Same type as gregebert use, I guess. I've mounted them a bit too far from 
> the center.
> The nimos are dimmed based on a LDR, so I have to pwm the indicator bulbs, 
> to sync to the nimo brightness.
>
>
> [image: nimo-colon.jpeg]
>
> On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 3:46:38 AM UTC+2 Audrey wrote:
>
>> I have automated searches setup aswell but sometimes they just miss things
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023, 9:24 PM Mac Doktor  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 4, 2023, at 9:00 PM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like they all sold out though. 
>>>
>>>
>>> He must have just gotten them. I've never seen them before and I have a 
>>> search for "magic eye" that I check every day. I go through his stock 
>>> periodically as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
>>> "The Mac Doctor"
>>>
>>> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>>>
>>> “...the book said something astonishing, a very big thought. The stars, 
>>> it said, were suns but very far away. The Sun was a star but close 
>>> up.”—Carl Sagan, "The Backbone Of Night", *Cosmos*, 1980
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6C443C41-DABE-4211-959C-EC9B706E12D5%40gmail.com
>>>  
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/6C443C41-DABE-4211-959C-EC9B706E12D5%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] NIMO

[gregebert]

I bought from aliexpress several years ago. Had to buy 1000, so I split-up 
and resold to neonixie members to offset my cost.
Other colors are available; blue would be cool.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:28:19 AM UTC-7 Jon D. wrote:

> Do you have a source for the green NE-2s with the internal white phosphor ?
>
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:33:26 AM UTC-6 gregebert wrote:
>
>> I'm using green NE-2 bulbs. Internal phosphor is white; glows green when 
>> energized. The lifetime isn't as long as gas-only bulbs, so be sure to 
>> mount on a plug-in card.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUcURQvQsY
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7 jörg wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a green-glow flathead indicator tube available? 
>>> Size like the MTX-90 Thyratron or smaller. I would like to use them as 
>>> colons for separating H:M:S.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:42:51 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>>>
>>>> A short update to my NIMO project.
>>>> Meanwhile I've put the tubes in a 3D resin printed frame.
>>>> The print is not perfect, but very promising.
>>>> I'm very pleased with this setup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some pictures:
>>>> [image: IMG_2890.jpeg] [image: IMG_2880.jpeg] [image: IMG_2879.jpeg]
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:41:56 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this is the clock from Roger.
>>>>> And he is the guy, who helped me out with one tube, becaue one of mine 
>>>>> was outgassed.
>>>>> Again, thank you very much selling me one.
>>>>> His is the leftmost one in the video, it is a BA -P31 
>>>>> (blueish-green), whereas mine are 6000-92-0006 (yellow-green). 
>>>>> And the font is slightly diffent to the others.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, @all please take it not too serious, the clock is for sure not 
>>>>> the worlds first 6 tube nimo clock, as it is not the most dangerous one...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/cd085.php
>>>>> https://www.industrialalchemy.org/articleview.php?item=943
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 4:37:18 PM UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice to see one more 6 digit Nimo clock!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's at least one other 6 digit Nimo clock that was shown on 
>>>>>> Youtube about a year ago: 
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA1oeqavMg8=3s
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, 27 September 2022 at 16:13:27 UTC+2 gregebert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really nice work!   Congratulations on being the first 6-tube NIMO 
>>>>>>> clock I've ever seen or heard of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 1:58:53 AM UTC-7 jörg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a small update,
>>>>>>>> I've made a short video regarding the build of my 6 tube nimo clock.
>>>>>>>> And thank's a lot to astroschmidt to sell me one of his nimo's to 
>>>>>>>> complete my clock.
>>>>>>>> You sure will see his nimo in the video. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhWgG5TKMg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the best to gregebert project and his brand new nimo's.
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:24:27 PM UTC+2 
>>>>>>>> w...@kitsunegari.net wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 3:09:46 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, if there is someone in the group, who is willing to sell a 
>>>>>>>>>> nimo which might join the other five, pls. pm me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You could ask Fran Blanche
>>>>>>>>> She's got a few Tubes and only has 1 in use and not enough to 
>>>>>>>>> build a clock.
>>>>>>>>> Maybe she's willing to part with one "for science".
>>>>>>>>> Tell her you're building a 6-tube clock and she's your only hope...
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMLgHbpJ8qYqj3CkdbvC0Ww
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] NIMO

[gregebert]

I'm using green NE-2 bulbs. Internal phosphor is white; glows green when 
energized. The lifetime isn't as long as gas-only bulbs, so be sure to 
mount on a plug-in card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWUcURQvQsY


On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7 jörg wrote:

> Is there a green-glow flathead indicator tube available? 
> Size like the MTX-90 Thyratron or smaller. I would like to use them as 
> colons for separating H:M:S.
>
> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:42:51 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>
>> A short update to my NIMO project.
>> Meanwhile I've put the tubes in a 3D resin printed frame.
>> The print is not perfect, but very promising.
>> I'm very pleased with this setup.
>>
>>
>> Some pictures:
>> [image: IMG_2890.jpeg] [image: IMG_2880.jpeg] [image: IMG_2879.jpeg]
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:41:56 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, this is the clock from Roger.
>>> And he is the guy, who helped me out with one tube, becaue one of mine 
>>> was outgassed.
>>> Again, thank you very much selling me one.
>>> His is the leftmost one in the video, it is a BA -P31 
>>> (blueish-green), whereas mine are 6000-92-0006 (yellow-green). 
>>> And the font is slightly diffent to the others.
>>>
>>> And, @all please take it not too serious, the clock is for sure not the 
>>> worlds first 6 tube nimo clock, as it is not the most dangerous one...
>>>
>>> http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/cd085.php
>>> https://www.industrialalchemy.org/articleview.php?item=943
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 4:37:18 PM UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice to see one more 6 digit Nimo clock!
>>>>
>>>> There's at least one other 6 digit Nimo clock that was shown on Youtube 
>>>> about a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA1oeqavMg8=3s
>>>>
>>>> /Martin
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, 27 September 2022 at 16:13:27 UTC+2 gregebert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Really nice work!   Congratulations on being the first 6-tube NIMO 
>>>>> clock I've ever seen or heard of.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 1:58:53 AM UTC-7 jörg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a small update,
>>>>>> I've made a short video regarding the build of my 6 tube nimo clock.
>>>>>> And thank's a lot to astroschmidt to sell me one of his nimo's to 
>>>>>> complete my clock.
>>>>>> You sure will see his nimo in the video. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhWgG5TKMg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best to gregebert project and his brand new nimo's.
>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:24:27 PM UTC+2 
>>>>>> w...@kitsunegari.net wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 3:09:46 PM UTC+2 jörg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, if there is someone in the group, who is willing to sell a nimo 
>>>>>>>> which might join the other five, pls. pm me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could ask Fran Blanche
>>>>>>> She's got a few Tubes and only has 1 in use and not enough to build 
>>>>>>> a clock.
>>>>>>> Maybe she's willing to part with one "for science".
>>>>>>> Tell her you're building a 6-tube clock and she's your only hope...
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMLgHbpJ8qYqj3CkdbvC0Ww
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>

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[neonixie-l] OT: New 'Secret Life Of Components" series from Tim Hunkin

[gregebert]

For those of you who like tinkering with gizmos, there's a 3rd series from 
Tim that's being posted on 
youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za-GyTt729M 

For those of you unfamiliar with Tim, he did a series of shows for TV, 
similarly named as *The Secret Life of Machines* about 30 years ago. 
Despite many of those machines being defunct now, the shows are very 
informative and have the right touch of witty British humor.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Does anyone have the accurate angles and dimensions of the IN-18 pinout?

[gregebert]

This might help. It's the source-code for 3D-printed collar for IN-18 tubes 
and I have 14 tubes of different manufacturing dates that fit just fine. 


//
//  Copyright (c) 2016 Greg Ebert
//
//  Generate pin-collar for IN-18 tubes
//  By setting nrow & ncol, any number of copies can
//  be created in a single print.
//  Setting both to 1 gives a single object
//
//  Dimensions are millimeters
//
outer_radius = 29.5/2; // Disk diameter
hole_radius = 5;   // Interior center-hole for tube nib
pin_radius = 1.4;  // For socket pins
pinring_radius = 17.40/2;  // Location of socket pins
disk_thickness = 6.84; // Millimeters
chamfer = 1.5;// Top angled section
spacing = 0.3; // spacing when replicating
nrow = 5;  // Number of rows (X direction)
ncol = 5;  // Number of columns (Y direction)
disk_color = [0,1,0];
hole_color = [1,0,1];
chamfer_color = [1,0.6,0.5];

for(j=[1:1:ncol]) {
 for(i=[1:1:nrow]) {
  xoffset = i*(2*outer_radius + spacing);
  yoffset = j*(2*outer_radius + spacing);
  difference () {

translate([xoffset,yoffset,(-disk_thickness/2)]) color([chamfer_color]) 
cylinder(h=(chamfer), r2=outer_radius, r1=(outer_radiu
s - chamfer), center=true, $fn=90);// Top chamfer
translate([xoffset,yoffset,0]) color([hole_color]) 
cylinder(h=2*disk_thickness, r=hole_radius, center=true, $fn=20);   // Cent
er hole
for(npin=[1:1:14]) {
x = xoffset + pinring_radius * cos(npin*360/15);
y = yoffset + pinring_radius * sin(npin * 360/15);
translate([x,y,0] )
color([hole_color]) cylinder(h=2*disk_thickness, 
r=pin_radius,$fn=40,center=true);// Pin holes
} // loop
  }   // difference
  
difference () {
translate([xoffset,yoffset,0]) color(disk_color) 
cylinder(h=(disk_thickness-chamfer), r=outer_radius, center=true, $fn=90); 
   // 
Main disk

translate([xoffset,yoffset,0]) color([hole_color]) 
cylinder(h=2*disk_thickness, r=hole_radius, center=true, $fn=20);   // 
Center h
ole
for(npin=[1:1:14]) {
x = xoffset + pinring_radius * cos(npin*360/15);
y = yoffset + pinring_radius * sin(npin * 360/15);
translate([x,y,0] ) color([hole_color]) cylinder(h=disk_thickness, 
r=pin_radius,$fn=40,center=true);// Pin holes
} // loop
  }   // difference
 }// Nrow
} // Ncol

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 7:06:34 PM UTC-7 Zachary wrote:

> I'm trying to model a socket in Fusion 360 but a lot of what I find online 
> is contradictory. Any help would be greatly appreciated

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan

[gregebert]

Inductance can be a real pest; V=Ldi/dt , so switching a bunch of segments 
on or off at the same time (even if they are lit dimly) can cause 
problematic voltage-drops across a relatively small inductance. One trick 
I've done on IC's is to stagger the turn-on and turn-off of 
current-consuming circuits by a few microseconds; can also be done in 
software.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 7:28:42 PM UTC-7 Moses wrote:

> I got around to adding a "keep warm" function for unlit segments on my 
> IV-9 clock kit. My experiences and a short video for those interested.
>
> I thought this would be a quick and easy modification.. it was anything 
> but! I added a hardware interrupt at 1600hz, and added code to keep unlit 
> segments warm with about a 1/10 duty cycle. Worked well.. but seemingly 
> random reboots of the ESP32 micro drove me nuts, I chased a non-existing 
> software bug for more then an hour (much more). Later (much later!) I 
> realized that the load imposed by largish changes in brightness, either on 
> power up or a commanded brightness change, combined with the keep warm 
> function was a pretty big load on the power supply. Yes, even higher then 
> just turning all tubes and segments on all at once. I tried different power 
> cables, different clocks, half a dozen different power supplies from boat 
> anchor linears to modern switchers, I was able to trip up all of them. I 
> even have a very low ESR polymer cap on the clock as well, but nope, the 
> spike load was just too much.
>
> My conclusion is the first few moments of the keep warm feature at 1/10 
> duty cycle, on 6 tubes and all segments, is a greater load then just 
> turning on all segments normally. I'll have to hook up some proper 
> equipment to quantify this soon. I could have brute force fixed this in 
> hardware by throwing a bunch of caps at it.. but I went with the more 
> elegant software solution. The brightness is no longer directly controlled, 
> but ramped up and down (on bootup too) to match the requested brightness, 
> this fixed the problem entirely.
>
> With a normal lit segment being driven at 20mA, the 1/10th duty cycle 
> gives the unlit segments approx 2.5mA current, which is barely visible. I 
> provided a user adjustable setting for the duty cycle, but having no 
> official manufacturer guidance to go on I think 2.5mA is as good a default 
> value as any.
>
> I hope this saves someone 4 hours of profanity ridden shaking of fists at 
> a clock.
>
> Side note, while I was in there.. I added cross fading on the digits, 
> which I must admit looks better then I had imagined on a numitron clock. 
> See the video and be well!
>
> https://youtu.be/dkOwaZvVQrg
>
> Regards,
> -Moses
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 3:08:56 AM UTC-8 gregebert wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. Others who have multiplexed nixie tubes, which run at a 
>> lower current, have reported audible noise. I would expect more noise at 
>> higher currents due to magnetism effects, but that isn't happening here 
>> with your numitrons. I've heard it myself with incandescent bulbs; I havn't 
>> done any work with numitorns.
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:00:25 PM UTC-3 Moses wrote:
>>
>>> Gregebert,
>>>
>>> I've not heard these tubes at all. I was initially running them at 
>>> 100Hz, then changed to 400Hz for a while before settling at 1600Hz.
>>> I've got half a dozen prototypes running for several months, so if they 
>>> were going to make noise I would have heard them by now.
>>>
>>> Neat idea on measuring the time-constant, I'll give it a try.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Moses
>>>
>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 5:12:55 AM UTC-8 gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very good info, Moses.
>>>>
>>>> From that, I would target the  operating current well-below 20mA to 
>>>> prolong the life of the display. You could use an NPN current-limiter 
>>>> (driver) driven from 5V TTL logic. Let me know if you need circuit 
>>>> details, 
>>>> but it's a very simple design (1 NPN + 1 emitter resistor). As a starting 
>>>> point, a 270 ohm emitter resistor will limit current to 16mA.
>>>>
>>>> Do you hear any noise with your PWM running at 1600Hz ?  If not, I 
>>>> would stick with PWM and not use the NPN driver, as it's not necessary. As 
>>>> long as the PWM cycle-time is shorter than the thermal time-constant of 
>>>> the 
>>>> filament (probably a few milliseconds), you should be fine. I think you 
>>>> can 
>>>> measure the thermal time-constant of the filament wi

Re: [neonixie-l] Is there a cheaper alternative to the IN-18 at that size?

[gregebert]

IN-18's are also very reliable; no failures in my 14-tube clock after 7 
years, though they are susceptible to cathode poisoning.

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:36:15 AM UTC-7 Audrey wrote:

> Z566M might be a tiny bit cheaper but no, IN-18s are a good price.
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 9:04 PM Zachary  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was wondering if there was any Nixie tube (American or Russian) that 
>> was similar in size (Anything bigger than the IN-14 basically) to the IN-18 
>> but that can be found for cheaper on Ebay.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/291f6d71-1289-42b6-a3ac-03a401d6a35en%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Battery-powered Nixie clock?

[gregebert]

You can estimate battery life by knowing the capacity and the power drain; 
in  my case the battery was a 3.7V Li-ion, rated at 1100mA-hr.
If there are 4 nixie tubes, drawing 2mA at 160V, then each tube requires 
320mW. Which means 4 tubes will need 1.28W.

The battery above is about 4 watt-hours of capacity (3.7V x 1100mA-hr = 
4070mW-hr), so at 100% efficiency, the clock would run about 3 hours of 
continuous display time.

The demo board for my nixie watch ran for about 6 years on a single charge 
because I rarely turned on the display. And that was with a well-used 
cellphone battery, so it certainly did not have the full 1100mA-hr 
capacity. 

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 7:56:18 AM UTC-7 Zachary wrote:

> Has anyone made a battery-powered Arduino-driven Nixie clock? If so what 
> kind of battery did you use and how long does it last? I was thinking of 
> making a small portable IN-4 clock.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie power article

[gregebert]

One caveat about using one of the dual-primary windings as an isolated 
supply for the HV is that the current is limited. As the load current 
increases, the output voltage decreases rather quickly. Even when using a 
transformer well-below it's rated VA output, the output falls. 

I used this approach in one of my clocks (fourteen IN-18 tubes) and 
although all of them illuminate nicely, the anode current on the tubes is a 
bit lower than spec so over time there is minor (and reversible) cathode 
poisoning on some of the month and year tubes. In hindsight I should have 
done some bench measurements on the transformer before committing to the 
design. If you have fewer tubes (lower current), or add a voltage-boost, 
this works fine.

Since then, I've stuck with a "hot" supply for the anodes and actually 
boost rectified+filtered AC line to about 200V.

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 7:11:44 AM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:

>
> https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/transformer-based-power-for-nixies?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=251670313&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-84n63pOWPbREMLiwyRCLhIjk19l1QxpUSRngk9Gfu3sOiAJmPO10G9WorxKeyisqbWWDH30Uv-nfdUwj3imBF-UkaM3g_content=251670313_source=hs_email
>
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-8-2 Anode wire broken

[gregebert]

In the large photo above, there appears to be a crack near the base of the 
tube. If it really is a crack, there will be a vacuum leak.

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-7 Jeff Walton wrote:

> You cut the small slot next to the wire.  That way you do not have an 
> “end-to-end” connection.  It will allow a side-to-side connection based on 
> how deep you make the slot.  It will still be short but much better 
> mechanically than end to end.  Must use very thin wire, like wire wrap wire.
>
>  
>
> Jeff
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
> Of *Benoit Tourret
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2023 3:52 PM
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-8-2 Anode wire broken
>
>  
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
>  
>
> I know that tube is not the more expensive I have, but, I can try to gain 
> experience for an other tube ...
>
> this one have all other legs with 35mm length. I can already use it with 
> one sign as cathode. easy for a clock: 6, 7, 8 and 9 are not used by 50% of 
> the tubes.
>
>  
>
> I have two others in-8-2 with shorts pins, (between 2mm and 10mm)
>
> I will try to save the maximum, even if they are glued on a support, I can 
> manage a connector for testing purpose.
>
> I wonder if tin soldier is not a bit weak, I never could solder the two 
> wires end to end. may be I should try with a spot welding ???
>
>  
>
> I definitly prefers loose a pair of ИН-8-2 to gain a bit of experience ;-)
>
> Le jeudi 23 mars 2023 à 19:00:08 UTC+1, Nicholas Stock a écrit :
>
> Benoit, whilst Jeff's advice is great, for an IN-8-2 tube, I'm not sure 
> it's worth all that effort. Now, if it was a Z568 or NL7094 etc, then yeah, 
> I'd go to those lengths for sure, but IN-8-2's can still be had for $15 or 
> so
>
>  
>
> If you can't find any, then PM me, I can sell you a couple if you need 
> them for a reasonable price.
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 10:43 AM Jeff Walton  wrote:
>
> I have used a Dremel tool with a small high-speed diamond or carbide wheel 
> and created a small slot opening in the glass next to the wire.  You can 
> carefully make a soldered or conductive glue connection with a wire wrap or 
> some other small gauge wire (30-32 ga) .  Scrape the edge of the nixie wire 
> that you expose to get a bare metal surface and carefully make a 
> connection.  After, carefully use acetone (or other) solvent to clean the 
> area around the pin and use a drop of epoxy or UV cure adhesive to protect 
> the connection and secure the small gauge wire to the base of the tube to 
> eliminate stress.  You will need to protect the connection from future 
> stress but as long as you do not further damage the glass/glass wire seal, 
> it should serve you moving forward.  The rest of the intact leads will 
> handle the mounting.
>
>  
>
> You do have risk of breaking the tube if you are not careful but it does 
> give you a viable option to save an otherwise good nixie.
>
>  
>
> Jeff  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
> Of *Benoit Tourret
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2023 8:33 AM
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-8-2 Anode wire broken
>
>  
>
> The cable is way too short. It must be about 0.1 mm
>
>  
>
> Le lundi 20 mars 2023 à 19:50:04 UTC+1, Michail Wilson a écrit :
>
> Why not try to quick soldier a lead wire to it.  I’ve done it often with a 
> number of IN-14s I’ve received.   Especially since I use the decimal points 
> which many have had the legs cut off when they were installed in equipment 
> half a century earlier.Flux it up and a quick hit with iron and solder 
> to tin it and then again when you get a wire you’re happy with to soldier 
> to it.  
>
>  
>
> Sent from Space
>
>  
>
> On Mar 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, martin martin  wrote:
>
>  
>
> I used the conductive adhesive on a Mini Cooper to repair the window 
> antenna for FM. 
>
>  
>
> It did not work at all. 
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 10:56 Benoit Tourret  wrote:
>
> I never thought using a cathode as anode...
>
>  
>
> I just tested , plugging the number 8 on +170V, all the other number are 
> working when grounded.  
>
> same with the number 4. those two numbers gave the best results. good idea 
> to recycle them on a clock...
>
>  
>
> I think use it for test purposes, with a 3D printed support : 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4571828
>
>  
>
> I will first try a rear windows defogger repair kit..

[neonixie-l] Re: IN-8-2 Anode wire broken

[gregebert]

Atom Adhesives sells electrically-conductive adhesives, but be aware of the 
cost. It's probably best to get a new tube, because any vibration or 
movement is likely to break-off the bond. Remember- you cant use a large 
glob like regular adhesives to add bonding-strength because it will short 
to adjacent pins. [OK, you could put sleeves on all of the other pins, 
apply an insulating layer of non-conductive epoxy, then bond over all that 
with a large glob of conductive epoxy. What a mess.]
I've only used their thermally-conductive epoxy and it works nicely.

Another option is if you dont need all 10 digits, you might be able to use 
one of them as an anode. I've never actually done that before, but it's 
theoretically possible.

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 5:50:57 AM UTC-7 Benoit Tourret wrote:

> Hello, do you know if there is a way to fix a broken wire on a IN-8-2 
> nixie, it is cut just at the level of the glass. and, of course, this is 
> the anode...
> do you think that a conductive glue could work ?
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan

[gregebert]

Very interesting. Others who have multiplexed nixie tubes, which run at a 
lower current, have reported audible noise. I would expect more noise at 
higher currents due to magnetism effects, but that isn't happening here 
with your numitrons. I've heard it myself with incandescent bulbs; I havn't 
done any work with numitorns.

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:00:25 PM UTC-3 Moses wrote:

> Gregebert,
>
> I've not heard these tubes at all. I was initially running them at 100Hz, 
> then changed to 400Hz for a while before settling at 1600Hz.
> I've got half a dozen prototypes running for several months, so if they 
> were going to make noise I would have heard them by now.
>
> Neat idea on measuring the time-constant, I'll give it a try.
>
> Regards,
> -Moses
>
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 5:12:55 AM UTC-8 gregebert wrote:
>
>> Very good info, Moses.
>>
>> From that, I would target the  operating current well-below 20mA to 
>> prolong the life of the display. You could use an NPN current-limiter 
>> (driver) driven from 5V TTL logic. Let me know if you need circuit details, 
>> but it's a very simple design (1 NPN + 1 emitter resistor). As a starting 
>> point, a 270 ohm emitter resistor will limit current to 16mA.
>>
>> Do you hear any noise with your PWM running at 1600Hz ?  If not, I would 
>> stick with PWM and not use the NPN driver, as it's not necessary. As long 
>> as the PWM cycle-time is shorter than the thermal time-constant of the 
>> filament (probably a few milliseconds), you should be fine. I think you can 
>> measure the thermal time-constant of the filament with a phototransistor 
>> and a scope. Starting at a low PWM frequency, the phototransistor will show 
>> fluctuations in the bulb's intensity. As the frequency is increased, you 
>> should see the amplitude decrease towards zero. I've never actually done 
>> this but I'm pretty sure it will work. You have to use a phototransistor 
>> (or photodiode); a CdS photosensor will have too-slow of a response time.
>>
>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:37:45 AM UTC-3 Moses wrote:
>>
>>> The TI CD4511B datasheet lists the lists the *minimum* high level output 
>>> (at 5v VDD) of 4.1v but typical is 4.55v, maybe others are different?
>>>
>>> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4511b.pdf
>>>
>>> At 4.55v the segment current on the IV-9 is going to be about 25ma. 
>>> Typical IV-9 segment current is about 20ma I believe, so that would be a 
>>> 25% overdrive.
>>>
>>> I've put up a drive voltage vs segment current table on my site, maybe 
>>> it's useful to someone: http://www.neonixie.com/IV-9-6D-RR/#tech
>>>
>>> I settled with powering the tubes in my designs in one of two ways.. 
>>> 5.0v direct with a recommended PWM of about 65% (the 165 (out of 255) value 
>>> in the table) OR 5v through a regular silicon diode, dropping the voltage 
>>> to about 4.2v at the tube and PWM that to 76%. Both result in a segment 
>>> current of 20ma. Don't know if one or the other is better in regards to 
>>> lifetime, I was not able to find any official sources of information. I 
>>> experimented with driving them using a 3.3v regulator.. but at that voltage 
>>> they were a bit dim.
>>>
>>> NOTE: The IV-9 datasheet does mention to avoid running the tubes at a 
>>> frequency between 105 and 1000 Hz, presumably to avoid mechanical 
>>> resonance. I elected to run them at 1600 Hz.
>>>
>>> I looked through some of my testing data.. at a segment current of 3mA 
>>> the segments are visible, 2mA they are "barely visible" and at 1mA I noted 
>>> them as not visible. Keeping the unlit segments warm with a slight current 
>>> seems to make the most sense to me. It's all software on my clock so maybe 
>>> an option for the next revision.
>>>
>>> That's all I know so far.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Moses
>>> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 5:52:05 AM UTC-8 theold...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> The numitrons are driven by a 4511 decoder, and according to their data 
>>>> sheets the max. output at that voltage is 4.1 V, so that is well within 
>>>> specification for the tube. Yes, I agree, lowering the voltage even 
>>>> further 
>>>> should increase lifespan.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Bill v
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> *From:* neoni...@googlegro

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan

[gregebert]

Under "normal" circumstances, I agree that individual current regulators 
add a lot of circuitry. The reality is that most tubes are no longer 
manufactured, so their numbers are dwindling as the price increases, 
essentially irreplaceable. You wouldn't believe the lengths I went towards 
protecting NIMO tubes in the clock I'm still working on.

I've debated about building a numitron clock, and the route I think I will 
go with uses LED 'filaments' that are used in retro light bulbs. Filaments 
scare the heck out of me because they will fail from thermal cycling, but 
there is no alternative for NIMO and VFD displays.

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:35:22 AM UTC-3 theoldpha...@gmail.com wrote:

> Using a current limiter sounds like a LOT of circuitry, 7 times the number 
> of tubes? I simply use a forward biased diode to drop the voltage, about 
> 0.7 for a standard silicon diode, and about 0.3 for a Schottky. That 
> requires only one or perhaps two diodes for the whole set of tubes. Perhaps 
> not as accurate, but definitely a whole lot simpler.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
> Of *gregebert
> *Sent:* Monday, March 06, 2023 8:13 AM
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan
>
>  
>
> Very good info, Moses.
>
>  
>
> From that, I would target the  operating current well-below 20mA to 
> prolong the life of the display. You could use an NPN current-limiter 
> (driver) driven from 5V TTL logic. Let me know if you need circuit details, 
> but it's a very simple design (1 NPN + 1 emitter resistor). As a starting 
> point, a 270 ohm emitter resistor will limit current to 16mA.
>
>  
>
> Do you hear any noise with your PWM running at 1600Hz ?  If not, I would 
> stick with PWM and not use the NPN driver, as it's not necessary. As long 
> as the PWM cycle-time is shorter than the thermal time-constant of the 
> filament (probably a few milliseconds), you should be fine. I think you can 
> measure the thermal time-constant of the filament with a phototransistor 
> and a scope. Starting at a low PWM frequency, the phototransistor will show 
> fluctuations in the bulb's intensity. As the frequency is increased, you 
> should see the amplitude decrease towards zero. I've never actually done 
> this but I'm pretty sure it will work. You have to use a phototransistor 
> (or photodiode); a CdS photosensor will have too-slow of a response time.
>
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:37:45 AM UTC-3 Moses wrote:
>
> The TI CD4511B datasheet lists the lists the *minimum* high level output 
> (at 5v VDD) of 4.1v but typical is 4.55v, maybe others are different?
>
>  
>
> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4511b.pdf
>
> At 4.55v the segment current on the IV-9 is going to be about 25ma. 
> Typical IV-9 segment current is about 20ma I believe, so that would be a 
> 25% overdrive.
>
>  
>
> I've put up a drive voltage vs segment current table on my site, maybe 
> it's useful to someone: http://www.neonixie.com/IV-9-6D-RR/#tech
>
>  
>
> I settled with powering the tubes in my designs in one of two ways.. 5.0v 
> direct with a recommended PWM of about 65% (the 165 (out of 255) value in 
> the table) OR 5v through a regular silicon diode, dropping the voltage to 
> about 4.2v at the tube and PWM that to 76%. Both result in a segment 
> current of 20ma. Don't know if one or the other is better in regards to 
> lifetime, I was not able to find any official sources of information. I 
> experimented with driving them using a 3.3v regulator.. but at that voltage 
> they were a bit dim.
>
>  
>
> NOTE: The IV-9 datasheet does mention to avoid running the tubes at a 
> frequency between 105 and 1000 Hz, presumably to avoid mechanical 
> resonance. I elected to run them at 1600 Hz.
>
>  
>
> I looked through some of my testing data.. at a segment current of 3mA the 
> segments are visible, 2mA they are "barely visible" and at 1mA I noted them 
> as not visible. Keeping the unlit segments warm with a slight current seems 
> to make the most sense to me. It's all software on my clock so maybe an 
> option for the next revision.
>
>  
>
> That's all I know so far.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> -Moses
>
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 5:52:05 AM UTC-8 theold...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>  
>
> The numitrons are driven by a 4511 decoder, and according to their data 
> sheets the max. output at that voltage is 4.1 V, so that is well within 
> specification for the tube. Yes, I agree, lowering the voltage even further 
> should increase lifespan.
>
>  
>
> Bill v
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroup

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan

[gregebert]

Very good info, Moses.

>From that, I would target the  operating current well-below 20mA to prolong 
the life of the display. You could use an NPN current-limiter (driver) 
driven from 5V TTL logic. Let me know if you need circuit details, but it's 
a very simple design (1 NPN + 1 emitter resistor). As a starting point, a 
270 ohm emitter resistor will limit current to 16mA.

Do you hear any noise with your PWM running at 1600Hz ?  If not, I would 
stick with PWM and not use the NPN driver, as it's not necessary. As long 
as the PWM cycle-time is shorter than the thermal time-constant of the 
filament (probably a few milliseconds), you should be fine. I think you can 
measure the thermal time-constant of the filament with a phototransistor 
and a scope. Starting at a low PWM frequency, the phototransistor will show 
fluctuations in the bulb's intensity. As the frequency is increased, you 
should see the amplitude decrease towards zero. I've never actually done 
this but I'm pretty sure it will work. You have to use a phototransistor 
(or photodiode); a CdS photosensor will have too-slow of a response time.

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:37:45 AM UTC-3 Moses wrote:

> The TI CD4511B datasheet lists the lists the *minimum* high level output 
> (at 5v VDD) of 4.1v but typical is 4.55v, maybe others are different?
>
> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4511b.pdf
>
> At 4.55v the segment current on the IV-9 is going to be about 25ma. 
> Typical IV-9 segment current is about 20ma I believe, so that would be a 
> 25% overdrive.
>
> I've put up a drive voltage vs segment current table on my site, maybe 
> it's useful to someone: http://www.neonixie.com/IV-9-6D-RR/#tech
>
> I settled with powering the tubes in my designs in one of two ways.. 5.0v 
> direct with a recommended PWM of about 65% (the 165 (out of 255) value in 
> the table) OR 5v through a regular silicon diode, dropping the voltage to 
> about 4.2v at the tube and PWM that to 76%. Both result in a segment 
> current of 20ma. Don't know if one or the other is better in regards to 
> lifetime, I was not able to find any official sources of information. I 
> experimented with driving them using a 3.3v regulator.. but at that voltage 
> they were a bit dim.
>
> NOTE: The IV-9 datasheet does mention to avoid running the tubes at a 
> frequency between 105 and 1000 Hz, presumably to avoid mechanical 
> resonance. I elected to run them at 1600 Hz.
>
> I looked through some of my testing data.. at a segment current of 3mA the 
> segments are visible, 2mA they are "barely visible" and at 1mA I noted them 
> as not visible. Keeping the unlit segments warm with a slight current seems 
> to make the most sense to me. It's all software on my clock so maybe an 
> option for the next revision.
>
> That's all I know so far.
>
> Regards,
> -Moses
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 5:52:05 AM UTC-8 theold...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>>  
>>
>> The numitrons are driven by a 4511 decoder, and according to their data 
>> sheets the max. output at that voltage is 4.1 V, so that is well within 
>> specification for the tube. Yes, I agree, lowering the voltage even further 
>> should increase lifespan.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bill v
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
>> Of *Chris
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 04, 2023 8:19 AM
>> *To:* neonixie-l 
>> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan
>>
>>  
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> While i am not sure for the IV9 numitrons have a look at the DA2300 
>> lifetime expectancy,
>>
>>
>>
>> Basically reducing the voltage increases the life expectancy 
>> exponentially. 
>>
>> So i usually run my numitrons at 4.5V or lower and have had no issues so 
>> far.
>>
>> On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 8:05:48 PM UTC+1 theold...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I seem to recall there was some discussion on the life expectancy of IV-9 
>> numitrons some time ago. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> In 2015 I built a number of clocks with these tubes, and they started 
>> failing last year. The clock in the picture is on my bench now, the three 
>> good tubes were replaced in November last year. So today all 6 tubes will 
>> be replaced. I have replaced all 6 tubes on a few other clocks also. One or 
>> more segments will no longer light up, and I do not see any blackening of 
>> the glass tube (The black you see in the picture is my permanent marker, s 
>> I will not replace the wrong tube when I disconnect the power).
>>
>>  
>>
>> The tubes are driven directly from a 4511 chip on a 5V power line.
>>
>>  
>>
>> There does not seem to be any order in which they fail, so I do not have 
>> the feeling that any of the tubes are significantly impacted by thermal 
>> stresses from flashing on and off. I would say based on my experience with 
>> them, the expected lifespan is about 7 years of continues use.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bill v
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this 

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan

[gregebert]

The picture above confirms my suspicion that more-frequently-changing 
digits will die first. The dying hours tube is still a mystery to me; maybe 
it was previously used ? I learned about this as a kid when I would do 
stupid things like turning my room light on-and-off to annoy others. Yeah, 
my bulb always died pretty quickly...

There are 2 design enhancements you can do to prolong filament life. First, 
limit the inrush current by using a simple current regulator or drive from 
a higher voltage and add some series resistance. For example, if a filament 
typically runs at 40mA for a 5V supply, it's HOT resistance is 5/0.04 = 125 
ohms. I've seen cold resistance 4-5 times lower, so such a bulb could 
easily see surge-currents of 200mA. Now, if you drive the same filament 
from a 12V supply, and add a series resistance of (12-5)/0.04= 175 ohms, 
the peak surge current has been reduced to 60mA. This will reduce thermal 
shock, but not thermal cycling.

For rapidly-changing digits, such as the seconds, you may want to have all 
segments slightly energized just below visibility to reduce thermal 
cycling. I would guess somewhere around 10-20% of normal operating current 
is a good place to start.

What about PWM ? Well, that's a good question and I suppose if the 
frequency is high enough, say hundreds of Hz, there wouldn't be any added 
thermal cycling.  But you would likely hear some audible noise. Faster 
still, say 20-30 kHz, wont be audible but might have some unwanted 
harmonics that cause RFI in the AM band.

On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-3 theoldpha...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
>  
>
> The numitrons are driven by a 4511 decoder, and according to their data 
> sheets the max. output at that voltage is 4.1 V, so that is well within 
> specification for the tube. Yes, I agree, lowering the voltage even further 
> should increase lifespan.
>
>  
>
> Bill v
>
>  
>
> *From:* neoni...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf 
> Of *Chris
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 04, 2023 8:19 AM
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] Re: IV-9 numitron lifespan
>
>  
>
> Hi,
>
> While i am not sure for the IV9 numitrons have a look at the DA2300 
> lifetime expectancy,
>
>
>
> Basically reducing the voltage increases the life expectancy 
> exponentially. 
>
> So i usually run my numitrons at 4.5V or lower and have had no issues so 
> far.
>
> On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 8:05:48 PM UTC+1 theold...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I seem to recall there was some discussion on the life expectancy of IV-9 
> numitrons some time ago. 
>
>  
>
> In 2015 I built a number of clocks with these tubes, and they started 
> failing last year. The clock in the picture is on my bench now, the three 
> good tubes were replaced in November last year. So today all 6 tubes will 
> be replaced. I have replaced all 6 tubes on a few other clocks also. One or 
> more segments will no longer light up, and I do not see any blackening of 
> the glass tube (The black you see in the picture is my permanent marker, s 
> I will not replace the wrong tube when I disconnect the power).
>
>  
>
> The tubes are driven directly from a 4511 chip on a 5V power line.
>
>  
>
> There does not seem to be any order in which they fail, so I do not have 
> the feeling that any of the tubes are significantly impacted by thermal 
> stresses from flashing on and off. I would say based on my experience with 
> them, the expected lifespan is about 7 years of continues use.
>
>  
>
> Bill v
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "neonixie-l" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/81b5b7e6-d476-4b83-9a8e-c9d6cc468db9n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: DTF104B Group Buy

[gregebert]

According to the info on Dieter's website, the filaments are 5V. A bit of 
data collection from several tubes will get you information on the current, 
which I'm guessing is around 100mA and hopefully less.

Since these aren't metal-halide displays, the lower the current, the longer 
the life of the filament. It might make sense for the frequently-changing 
digits to keep a moderate standby current flowing on all segments to reduce 
thermal cycling. And always limit the inrush current by using a series 
resistor or a current-regulator for each segment.

I'm still mulling-over whether I will start yet another project with these 
tubes, or stick with the long backlog I already have.



On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 11:26:53 AM UTC-8 Nicholas Stock wrote:

> They are nice tubes. The price *may* come down a little depending on how 
> much interest there is and the total number of tubes sold, but that is out 
> of my control I'm afraid. They don't appear very often on eBay alas. I've 
> not seen a data sheet for these anywhere and was under the impression they 
> were never actually sold commercially, just engineering samples... is that 
> true? Anyone on the list know more about these?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 12:06 AM Mark Moulding  wrote:
>
>> Those are my favorite Numitrons - easy to drive, easy to mount 
>> attractively, large format - and pretty rare now.  That price is still a 
>> bit steep for a "bulk" purchase; maybe it's about right for a small 
>> quantity.  Do you know how many are available?
>>
>> Also, has anyone ever seen an official RCA data sheet for that tube?  Any 
>> chance of posting it somewhere?
>>
>> Here's a clock I made using DTF-104Bs.
>> [image: WoodClock_sm.JPG]
>> ~~
>> Mark Moulding
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-8 Nicholas Stock wrote:
>>
>>> Fellow enthusiasts. I have a vendor (someone I have done business with 
>>> before) who wants to sell some DTF104B's (NOS) for $25 dollars each. If you 
>>> wish to buy some, then please contact me directly and I can organize.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IC Sockets

[gregebert]

Dont use IC sockets; they are not necessary.

If the circuit is properly designed, meaning that all IC datasheet 
parameters are met, you should never see an IC fail. I've built many nixie 
clocks, all of which I designed, and I've never had an IC fail on it's own. 
The first failure I've had was a few weeks ago, caused by ESD (my fault) on 
a Raspberry Pi, so technically not one of my designs.

IC's are actually easy to remove without damaging the PCB, though you will 
likely destroy the IC in the process. For thru-hole IC, flow fresh solder 
into each pin, and while it's still molten, use a vacuum desoldering tool 
like the Edsyn Soldapullt (see below). I've been using mine for ~40 years 
now, and it still works great. Once the pin is sucked-out, wiggle it with 
the soldering iron and it should be free. Once all pins are cleared, you 
should be able to gently wiggle the IC out with your fingers. If not, snip 
the stuck pins off the IC with fine clippers, then use tweezers to remove 
the pin while heating it. After all pins are clear, mop-up with some solder 
wick, then clean with 90% isopropyl alcohol. PCB should be just-like-new.

SMT parts need careful heating with a hot-air reflow tool, and you should 
be able to gently lift it with tweezers, though some pins will get bent and 
most likely the IC has been thermally overstressed, so toss it away. 
Clean-up is same as above.

Lastly, I never breadboard a design. PCBs are easy and cheap to have 
fabbed, and have far superior quality. If you mangle a board with 
debugging, build another. But if you do proper simulation beforehand 
designing the PCB, you wont need to do any debugging.

https://www.edsyn.com/product/DS017.html


On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 4:48:33 PM UTC-8 Charles MacDonald wrote:

> > something in a high vibration environment like a vehicle will give you 
> > more problems. Corrosion is another 'issue'.. but if it's that bad you 
> > should be coating your boards anyway.
>
> back in the 70s I delt with Apple ][ Computers that used socket-ed DIP 
> ICs problems Noted:
>
> bad contact - corrosion.
> loose IC due to vibration.
> they went for Premium AMP brand sockets to get better retention and some 
> of the ICs left the factory with one or more the pins bent under. this 
> worked at first, BUT made for Flaky INTERMITTENT contacts.
>
> Also the socket will have more capacitance then just a plain PC Board, 
> which might round off your signal edges. I think we even had one board 
> where the larger area of the contacts caused a solder bridge, and 
> pulling the socket was more difficult than just pulling an IC would have 
> been.
>
> -- 
> Charles MacDonald VA3CPY Stittsville Ontario
> cm...@zeusprune.ca Just Beyond the Fringe
> No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.
>
>

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