not wrong,
not confusing and mostly: not a new idea.
Juerd
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hing about it before it's too late.
Juerd
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Daniel Hulme skribis 2005-10-24 9:00 (+0100):
> FEAR: I will need a lobotomy before I can make sense of Perl 6!
This falls under "hard to learn".
Juerd
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already expressed in:
FEAR: Perl 6 will not be used as much as Perl 5 was!
Also, I'd like to keep the fear descriptions short :)
Juerd
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t
the same as the Perl 5 community is now.
My take on that is that it is because Perl 6 is not a new version of
Perl 5. I still think "Perl" is a misleading name, and mostly hurts the
image of the language that is created here.
Juerd
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foo foo";
given ($subject) {
s/foo/bar/; # "bar foo foo"
++; # "bar foo fop"
x= 2;# "bar foo fopbar foo fop"
~= "!"; # "bar foo fopbar foo fop!"
}
Especially bare ++ would be useful, I
Joshua Gatcomb skribis 2005-10-25 8:30 (-0400):
> IIRC, Andy has taken up the Perl6 PR hat. I think Juerd should like be
> working with Andy on this one. The rebuttals to these fears needs to be well
> thought out and convincing because from my personal experience they are
> prevalent
ink the latter is more elegant, without reducing legability or
maintainability. I also think that the code is immediately obvious, even
to people coming from Perl 5, who never read this thread.
Juerd
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#x27;s
> face it: $_ already covers 95% of cases, my hypothetical var would cover I
> guess a remaining 4.5% of cases, and who cares for the rest? E.g.:
> for @vert {
> put_point $_, $__ for @horiz;
> }
I find $__ confusing, and prefer $OUTER::_, which already exists.
Juerd
--
"\${ "OUTER::" x $n }_" }
];
}
And then you can use $_1 .. $_9. I think $_1 is much clearer than $__,
but I think neither is needed in the standard language.
Juerd
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not with 6.0.0, if
what you're waiting for is a small thing to implement...
Things that can wait are usually very non-trivial, and have little
impact on the rest of the language.
Juerd
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# 1's complement of number of T instances
Ehm, isn't that +^, ~^ (and ?^, perhaps) nowadays?
Juerd
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needing a one() junction for types, by the way. If
someone can come up with a good real-life example, please do so.)
Juerd
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Jan Dubois skribis 2005-10-25 12:33 (-0700):
> Just something to keep in mind in case you are tempted to use the Won
> sign as a sigil or operator in the future.
I don't know what stitch() will do, but this will have to be its infix
operator :)
zip ¥ Y
stitch
datory parameters get "+", then why do optional
parameters not get "-"?
# The mandatory/optional thing could even be postfix, which results in
# clearer code than the stacked "+:$":
#
# sub foo ($this!, $is!, :$mandatory!, $optional?, $really?)
I do lik
e or less very heavily associated with invocants
anyway.
Hmmm...
method .doit (...) { ... }
method $foo.doit () { ... }
Juerd
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on.
I just really wouldn't like : to have two very differentmeanings in very
similar places.
Juerd
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have a class export a sub to its "use"r.
class A {
has $.b handles { 'show' => 'say' };
eval "sub $?CLASS is export { $?CLASS.new(\$?ARGS) }";
}
Not sure about the existence of $?ARGS, or how else to write it. Well,
@_,
e
same thing, I wouldn't have felt the need to use both :)
Juerd
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Sam Vilain skribis 2005-11-03 11:01 (+1300):
> Does ++; mean &postfix:<++> or &prefix:<++> ?
I no longer think $_ defaulting for mutating ops is a good idea, but to
answer your question, read the original post: all these would imply the
LHS, so that makes ++ po
his buy me all that 10k% more functionality, or would have been a
> _simpler_ design, say "only" 1k% more complex be enough?
I love the OO system, and although it adds to complexity, I believe the
functionality gained is much greater. However, I do not see why we need
to add three ugly opera
The Perl 6 Summarizer skribis 2005-11-04 14:34 (+):
> $_ defaulting for mutating ops
Probably I have not been clear enough about that I no longer think this
is a good idea.
Juerd
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h
onvert (:$from, :$to, :$thing is rw) { ... }
I think the complexity of signatures is much less than that of doing the
same things without them, with the extra benefit that even beginners
will (almost) instantly understand most of it!
Juerd
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I hadn't noticed this change, but I like it.
I've updated the PM node :)
Juerd
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, I have to object. Such combination
doesn't work well in my brain. I'd prefer:
%bins.clear;
%bins.pairs = ...;
Although I think the current situation with simple assignment is still
much better:
%bins = ...;
Juerd
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ry even time.
Would something like that be possible? Wanted? Not too costly?
Juerd
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Ruud H.G. van Tol skribis 2005-11-20 1:19 (+0100):
> Maybe
> "\x{123a 123b 123c}"
> is a nice alternative of
> "\x{123a} \x{123b} \x{123c}".
Hmm, very cute and friendly! Can we keep it, please? Please?
Juerd
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r, for example:
@foo Y @bar Y @baz
> (What is Perl's pair terminology, by the way?)
A Pair has a key and a value. To retrieve the key, use the .key method,
to retrieve the value, use the .value method, to retrieve a list of
both, use the .kv method.
Juerd
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; $foo, $bar { ... }
looks, and don't quite like
for @foos Y @bars -> [ $foo, $bar ] { ... }
as much.
> (Or does for no longer automatically take as much elements from the
> input array as needed?
I like the arity-sensitivity solution better, I think.
Juerd
--
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Larry Wall skribis 2005-11-21 12:08 (-0800):
> Unfortunately, though,
>
> would be ambiguous, and/or wrong.
Well, we could of course change "-" to mean "-1 or fewer", as "+" means
"+1 or more"... :D
Juerd
--
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the same rule could be used for .., but then for consistency,
whitespace on its RHS would need to be disallowed.
Juerd
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o use indexes, but [EMAIL PROTECTED] doesn't return an
index.
Juerd
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Larry Wall skribis 2005-11-23 9:19 (-0800):
> ^5.each { say }
Without colon?
Juerd
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n
of lazy strings is an interesting one. It would be very useful, and
would also allow GREAT things like
my $revfoo := reverse $foo;
$revfoo ~~ s/foo/bar/g;
I wonder if it's doable, though...
Juerd
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ame as that of @foo.last.
That almost all arrays range from 0..i is no reason to write bad code.
> Maybe someone doing
> for ([EMAIL PROTECTED])->$i { say @foo[$i] }
That should be ^(@foo.last + 1), or not using ^ at all. I'd prefer the
latter.
Juerd
--
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nconsistent, but with @, it cannot be copied, because that flattens in
list context, which is provided by assignment to another @-thing.
Juerd
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t, that of "the number of elements" is
.elems, or [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you need the last index, plus one, you shouldn't
use the number of elements, and if you need the number of elements,
minus one, you shouldn't use the last index. Am I the only one who cares
about this dis
Juerd skribis 2005-11-24 0:39 (+0100):
> Personally, I think even ^.., ^..^ and ..^ are too much, but that I can
> live with.
For the record, I don't want to die if ^ is introduced. If it's there,
I'll use it. If using [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes accepted style, I'll use
have .i -- "i" for
"index" is accepted abbreviation, isn't it? (Think for (i = 0; ...;
...))
Juerd
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IL PROTECTED] returning a list of indexes, if that
is
the definition. I do object to [EMAIL PROTECTED] meaning [EMAIL PROTECTED],
which happens
to return a list of indexes for most arrays.
Juerd
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http://co
ducing another unary operator?
++
Juerd
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> my $x = 0; my @y = 1..9; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; print "$x\n"; print "@y\n"
The @ sigil does not create list context.
In general, every $foo[$bar] from Perl 5 can be written as @foo[$bar] in
Perl 6. @foo[$bar++]++ is neither weird nor wrong. Ugly, yes, that it
is.
Juer
TSa skribis 2005-12-05 12:32 (+0100):
> IIRC, the default is to be a read-only ref. Not even local modifications
s/ref/alias/, which you can see as an implicit or automatic reference,
but which we usually don't call that.
Juerd
--
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Brad Bowman skribis 2005-12-09 20:14 (+0100):
> $str ~~ my m/ mv @files:=+ $dir:= /
> Nah, that's ugly.
It's mostly ugly because you're not used to it, I think.
my m[mv @files:=+ $dir:=] ~~ $str;
Looks nicer, though.
Juerd
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oes, then wouldn't it be just a bit too silly to stick to {}
being a hash?
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c is under kind control ;)
Autovivification is always predictable.
Juerd
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. Perhaps this can be determined
using some attribute, that for a referenced hash defaults to the
opposite of what it defaults to for a literal anonymous hash.
Juerd
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gt; $range.max, and would be surprised if they meant anything
else.
Juerd
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$bar = Baz.new( foo => %foo );
my $quux = $bar.clone;
%foo = 'b';
Depending much on the semantic value of .foo, I'd want only $bar.foo
or both $bar.foo and $quux.foo to be set to 'b'.
Juerd
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Nicholas Clark skribis 2005-12-23 17:18 (+):
> Why not call the shallow copy .copy, and the deep copy .clone?
Because using (almost-)synonyms for different things leads to infinite
confusion.
List/Array is a good example.
Juerd
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h
a need to pass a hash that way. f := %foo;
Juerd
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out it. It has nothing
to do with colons or assignment. Colons are used for pairs, assignment
for copying values. It looks like +=, but doesn't quite work like it.
And ::= seems entirely arbitrarily chosen. But I may be wrong.
Juerd
--
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uring and after the
expression, and the aliasing itself had nothing to do with the
substitution.
Juerd
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Ingo Blechschmidt skribis 2006-01-05 18:32 (+0100):
> Juerd wrote:
> > Ingo Blechschmidt skribis 2005-12-25 17:37 (+0100):
> >> I disagree about binding only being a language thing:
> > I fail to see how your example code illustrates your disagreement.
> >>
id having both ... and ...$foo? MMD, longest-match, ugly hacks,
there's a bag full of tricks that could be used, so I gathered there
must be a philosophical reason not to have this. I just can't think of
any that would weigh more than having ...$foo around.
Juerd
--
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Jonathan Lang skribis 2006-01-18 7:26 (-0800):
> Mark Reed wrote:
> > Perl6 "".split(/whatever/) is equivalent to split(/whatever/,"") in Perl5.
> I'm hoping that the perl 5 syntax will still be valid in perl 6.
Don't worry, it is.
Juerd
--
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how you decide to write a method
call on $bar, is still OO.
Classes, like OO syntax, are not necessary for OO.
> You can write code that behaves like you're in OO-land and that talks
> with an OO accent (so long as you don't look behind the curtain), but
> it's not OO.
to different
people. To me, it means I can re-use code more easily.
Juerd
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s is because,
> what is blessed is not a literal "hash", but an instance of ^Hash.
The mistake here is that Foo doesn't "does Hash", I think.
Sure, in Perl 5, you could have different kinds of references as
instances of the same class. But I don't recall ever havi
n-OO fashion.
> &bless was a brilliant idea for Perl5. It's wrong for Perl6.
I think it's needed to be able to convert Perl 5 code
semi-automatically.
But you have probably thought about this more than I, so I'll ask you:
what's the alternative?
Juerd
--
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Juerd skribis 2006-01-19 22:18 (+0100):
> Could you live with @foo being an array, and @foo in scalar context
> returning a reference to that array? And with arrays being interfaces to
> underlying Arrays, which are objects, which makes arrays non-objects
> that can be used *as* ob
fferent kinds of references as
> >instances of the same class. But I don't recall ever having
> >encountered
> >that.
> bless([] => 'Foo');
> bless({} => 'Foo');
> bless(\*Foo => 'Foo');
> bless(\(my $var) => 'Foo&
if "everything is NOT an object", then the synopsis need to
> reflect this.
I was more thinking along the lines of "NOT everything is an object",
"but some things are".
Juerd
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u used and calling those attributes.
> 3) It then creates your BUILD() method, putting all the non-bless
> components of your new() into it.
Doesn't solve the problems as mentioned in this thread, like overlapping
methods.
Juerd
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e for calling it that)
did not. The two are wildly incompatible, but we do want both. Well,
perhaps you do not, but many of us here do.
Juerd
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t some golfs ...
Not worth the effort, because length('[EMAIL PROTECTED]') == length('push a').
Juerd
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hat we can use "ff" and "fff" to mean "loud"
> and "really loud" in our perl poetr^H^H^H^H^Hmusic. :-)
We need pp and ppp for balance.
Juerd
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nt?
I fear someone will suggest the ff ligature.
Juerd
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no profit in there
for me, or anyone except Cafepress. (I did add $ 0.01 because I think
.99 values are incredibly silly.) Please donate to TPF separately :)
Juerd
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tter plan
than having it default to any ORS, even if that ORS happens to be \n.
Juerd
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rning, but not an error?
I'd expect
has $.a;
has @.a;
To result in both $.a and @.a, but only one method .a, which is an
accessor for @.a
Juerd
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Luke Palmer skribis 2006-02-13 9:46 (+):
> class Baz {
> does Foo;
> does Bar; # does this count as double declaration?
> }
I'd put composition and inheritance in a slightly different category
than accessor *generators*.
Juerd
--
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7;s even quite likely that although it describes the way you
intended the module to be used, it doesn't cover all the bases. See
DBIx::XHTML_Table and Apache::Session, that have nothing to do with DBI
and Apache, respectively.
More and more, I like cute names that don't really desc
bar(...).
baz(...).
quux(...)
because then you lose visual indication that bar, baz, and quux are
methods (rather than functions), and the . and the end of a line is
visually lost and probably easily forgotten.
Plus, I don't like continuation characters at all.
Please reconsider.
J
syntax style.
And in this case, I think it breaks almost everyone's syntax style, not
just that of a few.
Juerd
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tirely predictible.
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documents for storage.
> [101 lines]
I wish I had time to read it all.
Juerd
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hing like that.
Quite often. A silly example:
$hex_wep_key ~~ /^ **{10|26} $/
Juerd
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> 16:50 < audreyt> Juerd: write to p6l and explain the ".." conflict,
The current long dot consists of a dot, then whitespace, and then
another dot. The whitespace is mandatory, which makes the construct at
least three characters long. Tripling the length of an operator, just t
4 -0700 (PDT)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A shorter long dot
Testing with sbc30k
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 16:50 < audreyt> Juerd: write to p6l and explain the ".." conflict,
The current long dot consists of a dot, then whitespace, and then
another dot. The whitespac
editors, like to keep them at the default settings.
And whenever you have to create a macro to do something that's common in
a certain programming language, that programming language was badly
designed. Let's not let Perl 6 be such a language.
Juerd
--
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rd to spot, and about underscores) are made, and I think healthy
discussion can lead to a much better solution than the current long dot.
People who think it wastes their time, by now know what this thread is
about, and can choose to ignore it.
Juerd
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vel. These cascades look messy.
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Yuval Kogman skribis 2006-04-30 2:58 (+0300):
> > We need to be careful not to require the language to solve problems that
> > are better solved with tools.
> On that point I agree, but I think it was a question of
> aesthetics... Juerd?
Yes, it was about both aesthe
.___:bar
Would suffice for my needs. Not sure if people are willing to give up
their underscore-only method names, though.
Perhaps whitespace can be allowed in numbers too:
5 000 000;
5_000_000;
Juerd
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t so long that I'm likely to have
foo.___:bar, and $foo.__:bar is clean.
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Gaal Yahas skribis 2006-04-30 16:05 (+0300):
> But it doesn't work across lines:
> $and_a_long_one_I_still_want_to_align.
> :foo()
Explain to me why it wouldn't work, please. I don't get it.
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.ht
Larry Wall skribis 2006-04-30 9:58 (-0700):
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2006 at 05:15:08PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
> : Larry indicated that changing the long dot would have to involve
> : changing the first character. The only feasible solution in the "tiny
> : glyphs" section was the ba
Markus Laire skribis 2006-05-04 14:55 (+0300):
> When reading Synopses, I sometimes notice some mistakes or typos,
> which I'd like to submit a patch for, but it's not easy to do so as I
> don't know where to get the source.
Have you tried s/html/pod/? :)
Juerd
-
on the outside, this will do Perl 6 much
good.
I've been meaning to do this myself, but I'm past the point where I give
up waiting for sufficient sufficiently round tuits.
Of course, feather can host it :)
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
http://conv
Dr.Ruud skribis 2006-05-05 15:25 (+0200):
> > s/pattern/{ eval doit() }/
> s/eval/try/ ?
No, string eval stays eval. Only block eval is renamed to try.
Juerd
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..<< ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ]
Juerd
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http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
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Gaal Yahas skribis 2006-05-08 17:58 (+0300):
> (Is there special sugar to make @input be the last index when used in a
> range, or did you mean ..^ ?)
I meant @input.last, or probably @input.indices (or .keys?) instead of
the entire range, and @input.first instead of the first 0.
Juerd
--
er be allowed outside a grammar,
> I entirely agree.
I don't. While disallowing named methods and rules may be a wise idea
(I'm not sure they are), the anonymous forms are probably very useful to
have around.
my $method = method { ... };
$object.$method(...);
Juerd
--
http://conv
mation with PHP is possible, but there will
be people who will interpret that meta-info.
Besides that, the page is kind of slow... But that could be temporary.
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html
http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
> Perl 6 pages, and so on.
Feather, the semi-public, semi-private, Perl 6 development server, is
available to host a Perl 6 wiki.
The hostname www.perl6.nl is deliberately kept available for something
like that.
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
http://convolution.nl/make_juerd
Please, for proper threading, don't reply to multiple messages at once.
Conrad Schneiker skribis 2006-05-25 1:46 (-0700):
> Juerd wrote:
> > Feather, the semi-public, semi-private, Perl 6 development server, is
> > available to host a Perl 6 wiki.
> > The hostname ww
ame,
> except it implies serializing to a serial format, like disk. "Locked" is
> the best name I can think of, and it frankly isn't that good -- it's so
> vauge as to be able to mean almost anything.
is exclusive
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.h
I haven't actually read your message, just the Subject, because I was
just going to bed.
Be sure to check out http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Nomenclature
Juerd
--
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I want core stuff to be consise and
short.
> On 8/6/06, Ashley Winters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On 8/6/06, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Please do not answer above the quote.
Regards,
Juerd
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