worthless because the test ran for a
trivial amount of time? Seems like it happens a lot to me. This patch
was already on my todo list for 8.4 and I'm glad I don't have to write it
myself now.
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uot;Most people have no idea how to set [GUCs]" which I know some
people wanted to see a more formal document for before mucking with any of
the code. I'll have something to announce there shortly.
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articular machine, so that all those numbers
actually can be tied to some real-world time measure. If you did that,
you'd actually have a shot at accomplishing the real goal here, making
statement_cost_limit cut off statements expected to take longer than
statement_timeout before they even ge
obe in the middle there to make that straightforward.
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both.
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Windows as well, at least enough to
cover this particular issue.
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cleanup/wizard plan that's being worked on. The pg_settings view
really should show the value both as the user input it and as it's stored
internally for cases like these, which lowers the confusion here a bit
even without going so far as converting everything to bytes.
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e amount of layering
in this area makes it difficult to understand just what's going on
sometimes (especially when new to it). A lot of that abstraction felt a
bit pass-through to me, and anything that would collapse that a bit would
be helpful for streamlining the code instrumenting going
ook useful and consistant, then move toward
cleaning up broader compatibility issues like the segfault concerns Zoltan
mentioned.
Going to take a while to work through all that, but performance patches
with platform-specific benefit are always painful like this.
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restored a previous version after a crash that
didn't save an updated copy.
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itself, I like
http://doxygen.postgresql.org/
4) Notes on how to deal with version control issues, patch submission, and
to find out what development is going on currently are all at
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Development_information
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tting new
features implemented.
Maybe all that's needed is to extend the "provides" section there with a
tag for those who are willing to take that sort of work on.
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make it easier for potential sponsors to navigate.
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about their server, or
sometimes that they're even using PostgreSQL inside the firewall. If it's
not a tool that you can run on the same server you're running PostgreSQL
on, I'd consider that another diversion that's not worth pursuing.
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lving the newbie problem. I want a tool to help out
tuning medium to large installs, and generating a simple config file is
absolutely something that should come out of that as a bonus. Anything
that just targets the simple installs, though, I'm not very motivated to
chase after.
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.
I don't think these people need guidance on how to manage the project,
they need some sort of way to feel comfortable saying "will pledge $Y for
feature $X" in a way that makes sense on both sides.
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range, and recommended setting are all valuable things people
would like to see when deciding what the change a setting to. And there's
no reason accumulating all that info should be the responsibility of a
tool writer when it's easy to expose and keep up to date inside the
database itsel
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Gregory Stark wrote:
"Greg Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
1) Is it worthwhile to expand the information stored in the GUC structure to
make it better capable of supporting machine generation and to provide more
information for tool authors via pg_sett
osh) didn't
just make them all up out of nowhere you know. I wrote a message here
already about what the seemingly inevitable path the budding "wizard tool
hacker" follows and why that leads into some of the changes suggested.
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topic now) to hash out suggestions in this area, I'm trying to keep this
somewhat thread focused now.
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require messing around with kernel settings
that no PostgreSQL tool can really help with.
Yes. So? All you can do is point this out to users.
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To make
mock-up showing what each of the outputs from the
pg_generate_conf tool might look like to get feedback on that; it will
make what is planned here a bit easier to understand as well.
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leting all of the continuing attemps to
divert the discussion over to parameter tuning details or expanding the
scope here.
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he settings I tinker with do,
but even I'd like it to be easier to find the right spot in the manual;
for newbies it's vital. You are correct that (2) isn't strictly necessary
here, but it's valuable and will be easier to wrap into this than to bolt
on later.
(3) (4) (5)
h a proper
API.
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rformance
tuning document a bit more in people's faces might help lower some of the
criticism the project takes over providing low defaults for so many
things.
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In the shared_buffers case, it may be possible to just recommend a
value without caring one bit what the current one is. But for work_mem,
you really need to actually understand the value if you want any real
intelligence that combines that information with the maximum connections,
so that you can
e moving along at their own pace.
There's already more tuning knowledge available than tools to help apply
that knowledge to other people's systems, which is why I think a diversion
to focus just on that part is so necessary.
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urther outbursts about non-productive comments
here, and each time I am tempted instead work on prototyping the necessary
code I think this really needs instead.
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hat should show at the very
beginning.
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en running for a while (and possibly moved to another
machine). By that point nobody wants to mess with their configuration
file unless it's one simple change at a time.
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hat on an XML file in
any shell language in that class, then we might have something to talk
about.
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are dealt with first, and that's where this is at right now.
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ybody who could pull it
off who isn't already overtasked with more important improvements for the
8.4 timeframe.
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To make changes to you
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Tom Lane wrote:
Greg Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Joshua has been banging a drum for a while now that all this data needs to
get pushing into the database itself.
This is, very simply, not going to happen.
Right, there are also technical challenges in the
l planned out if you look
at his presentations, but without the larger overhaul it's just not
possible to make the implementation elegant.
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ttp://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/GUCS_Overhaul I think reading
that version makes it a bit clearer what the proposed overhaul is aiming
for.
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evable to clone a working facsimile of
even a complicated postgresql.conf file set remotely just by reading
pg_settings.
While a bit outside of the part you're specifically aiming to improve
here, if you could slip these two additions in I think it would be a boon
to future writers of multi
because all the
unused bytes are 0. File comes out the same size at the other side, but
you didn't ship a full 16MB if there was only a few KB used.
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ant
March commitfest queue but should probably wander into contrib as part of
8.4.
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;s the
case, it would be nice to explicitly spell out what that was to deflect
criticism of the planned prioritization.
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what the data is in some
environments, and in some of those downtime is really, really expensive.
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d to
http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/postgresql/ and read "Inside the
PostgreSQL Buffer Cache".
The work memory allocated for sorting is separate from that, and it
doesn't cache anything. It just provides working room for a query that's
being executed right
our input files into smaller chunks and loads them,
kicking back the ones that don't load, or breaking them into even smaller
chunks until you've found the problem line or lines.
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ay in sync as the underlying log file changes
(it might rotate every day for example). Unfortunately it's not as simple
as just using tail.
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useful purchase for one of the PG
non-profits to make one day though.
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ng_with_CVS#Initial_setup
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milated into core as well so they don't have to
maintain their patch past 8.3; hopefully Theo or Robert will chime in on
that.
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echnically, but I don't think the introduce any real
functional creep. It would be difficult to even strip a system down to
the point where these packages weren't available.
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defense
mechanisms these environments look for redundant layers of security. In
reality users of this would aim for a completely locked down base
PostgreSQL *and* a completely locked down SELinux implementation
integrated into that, reinforcing one another, rather than just relying on
one le
tgreSQL ones, but it should be easier to change policy
violations that impact the server to something other than just ERROR.
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To make changes to you
llion errors reported
just because there's data that person can't see available.
At a minimum, this needs some finer log control, and maybe a rethinking
altogether of how to handle error cases.
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take it seriously, and the whole thing just leaves me feeling sorry for
them instead.
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control might work well. Maybe have an "adjust estimates for cache
contents" knob that you can toggle on a per-session or per-table basis?
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the additional toolchain
needed for reST processing just to make the FAQ a little easier to edit.
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be a useful hack when a page gets removed or to
handle common shortcuts/errors. In general, if you're relying on them
heavily for external navigation structure, you're probably not using the
right tool for that sort of job.
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On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Greg Smith wrote:
One small change I'd suggest on the main site:
http://www.postgresql.org/developer/coding links to
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Developer_and_Contributor_Resources which
is now a redirect to the above page.
This re
ut the advocacy
contributors to their own section which made the longer title unneeded.
It would be nice one day to change that to use the shorter
Development_information URL instead. It would also be worth considering a
direct link to that URL in the manual, I believe it will remain stable
isn't good enough here? http://doxygen.postgresql.org/globals_type.html
Scraping that HTML seems like it would be pretty straightforward.
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he academic users of PostgreSQL were hoping to
add features in this area in order to allow better using planner internals
for educational purposes. It would be nice if that were available for
such purposes without having to recompile.
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yet. That whole area of the Wiki is still
moving around a bit, and I expect some more usefully targetted pages will
emerge ("How to submit a patch" comes to mind). Having a stable
CommitFest URL is handy, but I don't think it's where the FAQ should be
sending people.
--
n whenever a
specific wiki page is modified right now, that's a standard MediaWiki
feature. If you wanted you could even sign up a mailing list as the
entity being notified. That's not exactly what you had in mind I think,
but it's close enough to be useful for now.
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do items and such rather than letting the idea just get
lost in the archives.
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ict...err, volunteers to pull him out of
the later steps though for a net reduction in his time. Simply getting
things organized better from the start should help with getting more
people helping out with review; the common complaint seemed to be "I can't
figure out what to help w
(but not installed in the database, as you point out) unless
someone goes out of their way to circumvent that.
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Other people have been
running such tools for Bruce but he doesn't have one he can become
comfortable with running himself yet.
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To make chang
5 from
the above. But that's a one-way operation that doesn't really help with
the commenting situation, and it's inevitably going to lag behind the
mailbox-centered queue unless it's made fully automatic. I can't think of
anything better that doesn't require building so
o pull that off.
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ginal code at http://mmmysql.sourceforge.net/performance/ , there's
also some improved versions at
http://developer.mimer.com/features/feature_16.htm
I'm not sure if all of those changes are net positive for PostgreSQL
though, they weren't last time I played with this.
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mment
about whether those are worth the trouble to integrate. The big missing
piece of community hardware that remains elusive would be a system with
=4 cores, >=8GB RAM, and >=8 disks with a usable write-caching controller
in it.
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my main concern about this experiment. Some
of the discussion that followed your original request for tests was kind
of confusing as far as how to interpret the results as well; I think I
know what to look for but certainly wouldn't mind some more guidance
there, too.
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ones. And it's kind
of a touchy subject to bring up as well, since it's hard to make
recommendations without looking unprofessional--which partly explains the
dead silence you've gotten as a response here so far.
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with "case 'r'" and the 3 new variable
definitions just above it that uses).
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re fixing a bug that's more
troublesome than that risk.
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now people have asked about simulating this
behavior, and I don't recall a good sample solution being presented before
yours.
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t the person who
starts the database will be surprised if the person stopping it isn't
paying attention (or isn't a person).
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ves I got the impression it was some page mapping issue but details
are elusive.
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l project than a database one. I also have my doubts
about whether you could get this done within the GSoC timeframe; better to
pick a less ambitious goal than rewriting the whole storage manager
interface I would think.
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make
your own copy of the repository instead.
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code as an attachment for a proposal if you
can direct people to the web for them. That's why I suggested sending
"the minimum of files necessary", which in this case was zero.
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practically on a wiki already!
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a similar independant
review will need to happen for every component you interact with here, on
top of a technical review. Luckily this is something a lot of people
would like and that should all get taken care of.
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uld
search based on them. A brief glance at the MHonArc documentation
suggests that could be run to re-covert any existing messages that are
still available in order to add to those even.
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out what the reply was referring to.
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.3 progress will make sense. Right now many of these
threads are not turning into patches to review, and the easiest way to
figure out which are which is to read through the discussion
thread--something a wiki wouldn't make any easier than the view Bruce is
already providing.
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work done on postgresqldocs.org into
the new infrastructure in a couple of days, after things settle down a
bit.
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pages get moved over with the same names (which doesn't seem
like it would be a problem), just changing developer.postgresql.org to
point to wiki.postgresql would seem to be sufficient to keep any existing
links working.
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On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Greg Smith wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Magnus Hagander wrote:
How about we move it to the wiki. AFAIK we can still lock it down to who
can edit it if we want to
You should confirm you can get the editing granularity you want before making
too many plans here if this is
developer's wiki.
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* Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
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On Fri, 7 Mar 2008, Heikki Linnakangas wrote:
If I want people to review my patch, I'm ready to sing and dance if
that's what it takes.
Great timing, there's even a suitable song available for you today:
http://use.perl.org/~grantm/journal/35855
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* Greg Smith [EMAIL
make today is
that I'd prefer not to see commit_delay excised until there's a superior
replacement for it that's suitable even for synchronous write situations.
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t thing, but I hope
it's obvious that there's some possibility to improve this area for
applications that can't use async commit. If you're going to dump the
feature, I'd suggest at least waiting until later in the 8.4 cycle to see
if something better comes along first.
nst that single file.
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mps, while a pg_dump focused
effort helps nothing but that specific workflow. I wonder if doing too
much work on the pg_dump path is the best use of someone's time when the
more general case will need to be addressed one day anyway.
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* Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gr
tion between the bgwriter
and the backend doing COPY
It might be worthwhile to turn off the background writer for these runs,
both to see if it changes anything and to simplify the output.
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* Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
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te as people mention new ones.
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. That sort of thing (renamed or improperly continued thread on the
same topic) is another spot where someone keeping track of things manually
can end up with a more consistant view of the discussion than the archives
provide.
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* Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.co
ds, but there is some value
to the way Bruce collects up the more interesting posts in the thread.
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