Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Tom Lane wrote: Brendan Jurd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/15/07, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, log_line_prefix is misnamed under this rule, and ought to be logging_line_prefix. Similarly, redirect_stderr would become logging_something --- I'd prefer logging_start_collector but could live with logging_collector (or maybe logging_use_collector?) The consistent prefix idea sounds good; does logging_enable jive with your proposal? I dislike it. I claim that logging to plain stderr (without the syslogger process) is still logging. Logging to syslog (which also doen't need the syslogger process) is *definitely* logging. Something named logging_enable would suggest to the normal person that without it turned on, you'll get *nothing*. I'm not wedded to collector per se, but you really cannot escape the fact that there is one more concept in here than you wish to admit. I think that reflecting the existence of a collector process in the GUC names makes things clearer, not less clear. Logging_collector won the day. I have just committed CSVlogs with that change. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
On Aug 18, 2007, at 20:44 , Andrew Dunstan wrote: Logging_collector won the day. I have just committed CSVlogs with that change. Congrats! A couple last-minute correx: http://developer.postgresql.org/cvsweb.cgi/pgsql/doc/src/sgml/ func.sgml?r1=1.385r2=1.386 s/log collector if running/log collector is running/ Might you want to use logging collector here, just to reinforce the term? http://developer.postgresql.org/cvsweb.cgi/pgsql/doc/src/sgml/ config.sgml?r1=1.137r2=1.138 varnamestart_log_collector/varname must be enabled to generate varnamelogging_collector/varname must be enabled to generate Michael Glaesemann grzm seespotcode net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Michael Glaesemann wrote: On Aug 18, 2007, at 20:44 , Andrew Dunstan wrote: Logging_collector won the day. I have just committed CSVlogs with that change. Congrats! A couple last-minute correx: thanks. fixed. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Heikki, Should we change the ordering of pg_settings? Well, an unfixed issue in pg_settings is that the category/subcategory relationship got represented by a non-atomic field which makes sorting on that difficult. -- --Josh Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Andrew Dunstan wrote: Tom Lane wrote: Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Before I wrap up the CSVlog stuff, we need to decide whether or not to change the name of the redirect_stderr setting, and if so to what. The reason is that with CSVlogs it will no longer apply just to stderr (we will require it to be on for CSVlogs, in fact). I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. Nobody else seems to care much. I'll go with start_log_collector. Are we trying to use log_* prefixes, e.g. log_start_collector? -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. Nobody else seems to care much. I'll go with start_log_collector. Are we trying to use log_* prefixes, e.g. log_start_collector? That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.PlanetPostgreSQL.org/ How amazing is that? I call it a night and come back to find that a bug has been identified and patched while I sleep.(Robert Davidson) http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-sql/2006-03/msg00378.php ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Alvaro Herrera wrote: Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. Nobody else seems to care much. I'll go with start_log_collector. Are we trying to use log_* prefixes, e.g. log_start_collector? That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. Yea, good point. I was just wondering because I don't see 'start' used in anywhere at the beginning of a GUC variable. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Bruce Momjian wrote: Alvaro Herrera wrote: Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. Nobody else seems to care much. I'll go with start_log_collector. Are we trying to use log_* prefixes, e.g. log_start_collector? That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. Yea, good point. I was just wondering because I don't see 'start' used in anywhere at the beginning of a GUC variable. Good point too. In other places we just name the feature that's to be started, for example we don't use start_autovacuum. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvherre/ Granting software the freedom to evolve guarantees only different results, not better ones. (Zygo Blaxell) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Alvaro Herrera wrote: That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. Yea, good point. I was just wondering because I don't see 'start' used in anywhere at the beginning of a GUC variable. Good point too. In other places we just name the feature that's to be started, for example we don't use start_autovacuum. How about just log_collector then? Lets decide ASAP please - I want to get this committed. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Andrew Dunstan wrote: Alvaro Herrera wrote: That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. Yea, good point. I was just wondering because I don't see 'start' used in anywhere at the beginning of a GUC variable. Good point too. In other places we just name the feature that's to be started, for example we don't use start_autovacuum. How about just log_collector then? Lets decide ASAP please - I want to get this committed. Works for me, or enable_log_collector? Based on Alvaro's comments, log_collector does sound like we are logging collector activity. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
On Tue, Aug 14, 2007 at 11:42 AM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alvaro Herrera wrote: In other places we just name the feature that's to be started, for example we don't use start_autovacuum. How about just log_collector then? +1 Unambiguous and consistent with other settings. log_collector = on ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Bruce Momjian wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: Alvaro Herrera wrote: That sounds like you want to log when the collector starts, which is not the case and is confusing -- what collector is it talking about? This is about starting the log collector. Yea, good point. I was just wondering because I don't see 'start' used in anywhere at the beginning of a GUC variable. Good point too. In other places we just name the feature that's to be started, for example we don't use start_autovacuum. How about just log_collector then? Lets decide ASAP please - I want to get this committed. Works for me, or enable_log_collector? Based on Alvaro's comments, log_collector does sound like we are logging collector activity. The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. I vote against. Remember that some people look at the GUCs in alpha order from pg_settings. As such, if we're changing GUC names it ought to be in a way that groups logically if we can. log_collector_enable or log_collector_start or even log_redirect. But something with log_* -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Josh Berkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. log_collector_enable or log_collector_start or even log_redirect. But something with log_* I'm voting with Alvaro on this. All of your suggestions are confusing because log looks like the verb, which it is not. Specifically, they sound like what the switch does is to cause a log message to be emitted about some action that would occur anyway. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Josh Berkus wrote: The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. I vote against. Remember that some people look at the GUCs in alpha order from pg_settings. As such, if we're changing GUC names it ought to be in a way that groups logically if we can. Should we change the ordering of pg_settings? -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
On Aug 14, 2007, at 12:40 , Tom Lane wrote: Josh Berkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. log_collector_enable or log_collector_start or even log_redirect. But something with log_* I'm voting with Alvaro on this. All of your suggestions are confusing because log looks like the verb, which it is not. Specifically, they sound like what the switch does is to cause a log message to be emitted about some action that would occur anyway. AIUI, if the-GUC-yet-to-be-named is not enabled, no logging is done at all: messages are just sent to stderr. Why something simple like enable_logging or start_logger? Michael Glaesemann grzm seespotcode net ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Michael Glaesemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AIUI, if the-GUC-yet-to-be-named is not enabled, no logging is done at all: messages are just sent to stderr. Why something simple like enable_logging or start_logger? Um, that's still logging by my definition. I could live with start_logger, since that is not the same as logging. It could be that if we want real consistency we're going to have to make more changes than this one. Consider something like this: * All variables that cause a specific kind of log message to be printed or not shall be named log_something. (So log_ is a verb.) * Variables that affect the logging mechanism as a whole shall be named logging_something. For example, log_line_prefix is misnamed under this rule, and ought to be logging_line_prefix. Similarly, redirect_stderr would become logging_something --- I'd prefer logging_start_collector but could live with logging_collector (or maybe logging_use_collector?) Looking at the docs, there are a whole bunch of GUCs that would have to be renamed to meet this rule, but I think it would become clearer what does what. Is that too radical? regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Josh Berkus wrote: The problem here is that log seems to be a verb in log_collector which is what makes it confusing. So we need another verb to make it clear that log is not one. This is not a problem with autovacuum because that one cannot be confused with a verb. start_log_collector still gets my vote. I vote against. Remember that some people look at the GUCs in alpha order from pg_settings. As such, if we're changing GUC names it ought to be in a way that groups logically if we can. Should we change the ordering of pg_settings? Yeah, this is not a good reason for deciding a naming issue. If we really want thematic collection of GUC vars then we should arrange for some sort of hierarchical naming, and appropriate sectioning of the config file. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
On 8/15/07, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, log_line_prefix is misnamed under this rule, and ought to be logging_line_prefix. Similarly, redirect_stderr would become logging_something --- I'd prefer logging_start_collector but could live with logging_collector (or maybe logging_use_collector?) The consistent prefix idea sounds good; does logging_enable jive with your proposal? Introduction of the term collector might be an overthink, and could confuse people. Your average postgres user tweaking his config file is going to see that and wonder what on earth a log collector is. Whereas it's generally understood that to log is to capture output and make it persistent, and logging_enable is clearly a setting that allows this to take place. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
With so many people trying to paint this particular bikeshed, my suggestion to Andrew is to commit the patch as is and leave the rename for a later patch. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/DXLWNGRJD34J Jude: I wish humans laid eggs Ringlord: Why would you want humans to lay eggs? Jude: So I can eat them ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Brendan Jurd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/15/07, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, log_line_prefix is misnamed under this rule, and ought to be logging_line_prefix. Similarly, redirect_stderr would become logging_something --- I'd prefer logging_start_collector but could live with logging_collector (or maybe logging_use_collector?) The consistent prefix idea sounds good; does logging_enable jive with your proposal? I dislike it. I claim that logging to plain stderr (without the syslogger process) is still logging. Logging to syslog (which also doen't need the syslogger process) is *definitely* logging. Something named logging_enable would suggest to the normal person that without it turned on, you'll get *nothing*. I'm not wedded to collector per se, but you really cannot escape the fact that there is one more concept in here than you wish to admit. I think that reflecting the existence of a collector process in the GUC names makes things clearer, not less clear. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
On 8/15/07, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brendan Jurd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The consistent prefix idea sounds good; does logging_enable jive with your proposal? I dislike it. I claim that logging to plain stderr (without the syslogger process) is still logging. Logging to syslog (which also doen't need the syslogger process) is *definitely* logging. Something named logging_enable would suggest to the normal person that without it turned on, you'll get *nothing*. I'm not wedded to collector per se, but you really cannot escape the fact that there is one more concept in here than you wish to admit. I think that reflecting the existence of a collector process in the GUC names makes things clearer, not less clear. Fair enough. I just took a fresh look at postmaster.conf, and indeed the logging variables are more complex than I gave them credit for with logging_enable. Retracted. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Tom Lane wrote: Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Before I wrap up the CSVlog stuff, we need to decide whether or not to change the name of the redirect_stderr setting, and if so to what. The reason is that with CSVlogs it will no longer apply just to stderr (we will require it to be on for CSVlogs, in fact). I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. Nobody else seems to care much. I'll go with start_log_collector. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
[HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Before I wrap up the CSVlog stuff, we need to decide whether or not to change the name of the redirect_stderr setting, and if so to what. The reason is that with CSVlogs it will no longer apply just to stderr (we will require it to be on for CSVlogs, in fact). I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. But maybe that doesn't matter, as we can note it in the docs and the sample conf file. thoughts? cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] change name of redirect_stderr?
Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Before I wrap up the CSVlog stuff, we need to decide whether or not to change the name of the redirect_stderr setting, and if so to what. The reason is that with CSVlogs it will no longer apply just to stderr (we will require it to be on for CSVlogs, in fact). I suggest redirect_logs, although it's arguably too general as it doesn't apply to syslog/eventlog. Perhaps it should be named analogously to stats_start_collector, ie think of the syslogger process as a log collector. I don't much like log_start_collector though --- start_log_collector seems far less confusing as to where the verb is. No strong opinion here, just tossing out some ideas. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
