Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Noe that the debuger chapter is closed, and you actually did create a error tracker helper and try to return them client side, I can understand that you are frustrated by the poor php layer and support regarding exception handling, but on this point as a lot of people answer you we are doing that server side, if you are developing in a MVC environment you don't need the view to debug your model. Best, On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:13 AM, mm w 0xcafef...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Andrea, I did not mean to hurt you, my point was: beeing a Jerk when it's ending in void conflicts with people, if you don't like their comments, just don't answer to people. For my concern, a program cannot be debuged by itself (especially with a scripting language, we almost did a joke by saying that too), to debug you need real debug symbols exposed and catchable the only to have them: you must have a php-zen-debug build, unfortunately it is not an optional feature to run the interpreter in this mode, you can only have it at compile time, thing that is impossible to predicate and have due the different platform support extensions, secondable, what you are doing is not a debuger, it's a run-time error tracker, to make a debuger you need to run a session of the interpreter (exposing real debug symbols) into your own exception handler program e.g a debuger, debuging php-script using php-script is a non-sense, beside this it could be done using DTrace unfortunately not available on every OS. Best On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Andrea Giammarchi an_...@hotmail.com wrote: Hello Andrea, I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me the truth or the right to be a jerk?, Which part is jerk, people starting replying without even looking for 1 minute the project page? People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler, ignoring it does not catch all errors? Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done, as if the programming world and all ideas ended years ago? I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys, I am not the last arrived here, so do not threat me as a noob please, OK? I prefer answers such: I am using this other program, application, strategy, and I do not need it rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfectly represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute to read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ... right? They confirmed they did not read, so WTF? I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply. you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting language. back to silence. Best I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about, this is my only point. Best See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Hello Andrea, I did not mean to hurt you, my point was: beeing a Jerk when it's ending in void conflicts with people, if you don't like their comments, just don't answer to people. For my concern, a program cannot be debuged by itself (especially with a scripting language, we almost did a joke by saying that too), to debug you need real debug symbols exposed and catchable the only to have them: you must have a php-zen-debug build, unfortunately it is not an optional feature to run the interpreter in this mode, you can only have it at compile time, thing that is impossible to predicate and have due the different platform support extensions, secondable, what you are doing is not a debuger, it's a run-time error tracker, to make a debuger you need to run a session of the interpreter (exposing real debug symbols) into your own exception handler program e.g a debuger, debuging php-script using php-script is a non-sense, beside this it could be done using DTrace unfortunately not available on every OS. Best On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Andrea Giammarchi an_...@hotmail.com wrote: Hello Andrea, I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me the truth or the right to be a jerk?, Which part is jerk, people starting replying without even looking for 1 minute the project page? People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler, ignoring it does not catch all errors? Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done, as if the programming world and all ideas ended years ago? I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys, I am not the last arrived here, so do not threat me as a noob please, OK? I prefer answers such: I am using this other program, application, strategy, and I do not need it rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfectly represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute to read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ... right? They confirmed they did not read, so WTF? I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply. you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting language. back to silence. Best I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about, this is my only point. Best See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
At 7:28 AM +0200 9/14/09, J DeBord wrote: In all fairness Tedd, your example is a bit of a joke. Send some JSON back and forth, do some database queries, and use a webservice all at the same time. Your AJAX calls won't be so simple then. Okay, so my work is a joke. Been there, done that before and will do it again. However, I offered it as an example as someone on this list using ajax, which if you will read the thread, you will see that he asked the question if anyone used ajax. I replied with my joke. Sorry that my example doesn't live up to your expectations. But then again, you really don't know what my example does, do you? Sure, you see the ajax side of it, but that's really all you see, isn't that right? Maybe it has some other redeeming properties that you have failed to consider? While it's a joke, in all fairness, it does work. -snip- Charles is a great tool when doing Flash and Flex remoting, and AJAX. I have the impression that Andrea's tool is perhaps doing something similar, but taking it a step further. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it is difficult to write off as useless. If you really want to be fair about this -- how about you show me where me where I said his debugger was useless? You claimed I did, so in all fairness you should be able to prove it. In fact, how about you showing me anywhere where I said anything negative about his debugger? That would be fair, right? Also while you are at it, how about reading the entire thread and see how I came involved in the first place. After all, we all want to be be fair about this, right? In all fairness, I think if someone followed this thread and saw the sequence of events, a fair minded individual might come away with a different perspective and claims than you did. Sometimes I wonder why I try to help people in the first place. tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
While it's a joke, in all fairness, it does work. only because you debugged before server side responses, and now, as I have said, you have an alternative to speed up that process. Finally, Formaldehyde JS had a typo so only today I realized it and I uploaded the version 1.01 of Formaldehyde for JavaScript so right now and only if you have 5 minutes, you can properly test the project having expected results (before was the same except the typo, now it should be OK) _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
While it's a joke, in all fairness, it does work. only because you debugged before server side responses, and now, as I have said, you have an alternative to speed up that process. Finally, Formaldehyde JS had a typo so only today I realized it and I uploaded the version 1.01 of Formaldehyde for JavaScript so right now and only if you have 5 minutes, you can properly test the project having expected results (before was the same except the typo, now it should be OK) _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
That I created some fresh air or something new? Sure, thanks Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:47:27 -0700 From: li...@cmsws.com To: an_...@hotmail.com CC: pa...@quillandmouse.com; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger Andrea Giammarchi wrote: something I cannot find in any other library or framework. This should tell you something then... -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
I can only say if these are our prespective about innovation and technologies, we need to thanks silly people like me moving further than what is already there and common convention. This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting, fortunately who understood the project and gave it a try to test it has been happy with it. Finally, I am working with FirePHP developer for a FirePHP + Formaldehyde natural integration in FirePHP and obviously he liked Formaldehyde, since there's nothing like that inside FirePHP - they are simply different, and FirePHP does not manage Fatal Errors and other crucial one. The good part is that at least you know there is that possibility, so the day you'll realize that your set_error_handler could be useless in certain circumstances you'll probably re-evaluate Formaldehyde ;-) Thanks to those who tried or tried to understand. Regards P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP and dunno how many innovation awards in phpclasses.org ... so it was not just to waste my time guys, and it is open source, maybe next time I'll keep for me From: jasdeb...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:37:01 +0200 To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lucas li...@cmsws.com wrote: Andrea Giammarchi wrote: something I cannot find in any other library or framework. This should tell you something then... If something like Formandehyde isn't useful, then why is Charles so popular (note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is popular with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so) http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet fight, so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd, the ajax example you linked to does not need any debugging, that is for sure. -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 01:33:49PM +0200, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: snip This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting, snip P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP and dunno how many innovation awards in phpclasses.org ... so it was not just to waste my time guys, and it is open source, maybe next time I'll keep for me Yeah, we people on this list just don't get it. So, you're gonna leave the list now, right? Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
What does this offer that a real debugger, like xdebug, doesn't? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Hello Andrea, I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me the truth or the right to be a jerk?, you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting language. back to silence. Best, On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Andrea Giammarchi an_...@hotmail.com wrote: I can only say if these are our prespective about innovation and technologies, we need to thanks silly people like me moving further than what is already there and common convention. This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting, fortunately who understood the project and gave it a try to test it has been happy with it. Finally, I am working with FirePHP developer for a FirePHP + Formaldehyde natural integration in FirePHP and obviously he liked Formaldehyde, since there's nothing like that inside FirePHP - they are simply different, and FirePHP does not manage Fatal Errors and other crucial one. The good part is that at least you know there is that possibility, so the day you'll realize that your set_error_handler could be useless in certain circumstances you'll probably re-evaluate Formaldehyde ;-) Thanks to those who tried or tried to understand. Regards P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP and dunno how many innovation awards in phpclasses.org ... so it was not just to waste my time guys, and it is open source, maybe next time I'll keep for me From: jasdeb...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:37:01 +0200 To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lucas li...@cmsws.com wrote: Andrea Giammarchi wrote: something I cannot find in any other library or framework. This should tell you something then... If something like Formandehyde isn't useful, then why is Charles so popular (note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is popular with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so) http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet fight, so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd, the ajax example you linked to does not need any debugging, that is for sure. -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Hello Andrea, I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me the truth or the right to be a jerk?, Which part is jerk, people starting replying without even looking for 1 minute the project page? People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler, ignoring it does not catch all errors? Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done, as if the programming world and all ideas ended years ago? I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys, I am not the last arrived here, so do not threat me as a noob please, OK? I prefer answers such: I am using this other program, application, strategy, and I do not need it rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfectly represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute to read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ... right? They confirmed they did not read, so WTF? I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply. you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting language. back to silence. Best I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about, this is my only point. Best _ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Hosting support, since it is 100% php with zero dependencies and zero config effort plus the ability do debug directly via console, unit testing via Selenium and/or others, and it does not require manual error catch after the generic problemi, since it will simply be showed on the client side. On the other hand, xdebug could offer a bit more such memory allocation, something could require APD if integrated with Formaldehyde (and it could be interesting, so I am not excluding I won't do it next release) Best Regards P.S. for others ... these kind of answers, questions, opinions, that IS what I was expecting Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:52:11 -0400 From: oorza...@gmail.com To: pa...@quillandmouse.com CC: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger What does this offer that a real debugger, like xdebug, doesn't? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photos-share.aspx?tab=1
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Andrea Giammarchi an_...@hotmail.com wrote: Hosting support, since it is 100% php with zero dependencies and zero config effort plus the ability do debug directly via console, unit testing via Selenium and/or others, and it does not require manual error catch after the generic problemi, since it will simply be showed on the client side. On the other hand, xdebug could offer a bit more such memory allocation, something could require APD if integrated with Formaldehyde (and it could be interesting, so I am not excluding I won't do it next release) Best Regards P.S. for others ... these kind of answers, questions, opinions, that IS what I was expecting Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:52:11 -0400 From: oorza...@gmail.com To: pa...@quillandmouse.com CC: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger What does this offer that a real debugger, like xdebug, doesn't? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photos-share.aspx?tab=1 The thing is, in a properly configured development environment, it's local, so I can immediately read the logs, or just fire the script up with xdebug, or the errors will get caught in the editor. And I would NEVER imagine publicly exposing error messages in a production environment, so I'm just really confused as to what this offers, other than some seemingly small benefit in readability, specifically in firebug (and some other cruft that you really ought to remove, like the X-Formaldehyde header). And furthermore, this requires code changes from development - production, which is a problem I've always had with FirePHP, too, as that information does not belong in a production environment. As far as support for shared hosting is concerned, I've stated on this list several times that my firm opinion is shared hosting is shooting yourself in the foot (especially as a good VPS isn't that much more expensive, I'm paying $20/mo for mine). I think you best summed up why so many on this list think Formaldehyde isn't a very useful product yourself: the errors are shown on the client side. In theory, a good development environment already exposes this information to the developer and things should fail a lot more gracefully than error output for the user. You said that this project is something that doesn't already exist, perhaps you should consider that it doesn't exist because a sane development cycle precludes Formaldehyde's usefulness? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Right, errors should never be exposed, and error_reporting should be 0 in production but log function and the fact you can move Formaldehyde with the application means it does not require extra effort. In few words, if in production Formaldehyde constant is false, and it must be false, nothing will be exposed. You do not need to change your code if you configure properly the defined constant while you can use what logs have to offers plus you'll have 1:1 production/development application Finally, locally, and at least for me, I find extremely useful the runtime debug, rather than keep logs under control, since specially Ajax interactions needs to be performed runtime via emulators (Selenium) or not (We testing) and other applications I know do not offer this simplicity that you call useless but which is the reason I have created Formaldehyde. That simplicity is not offered so far by your suggested one as well, and please tell me how quick could be an instant PHP error on screen during tests or debug rather than a log analysis but in any case, thanks for the feedback. This is the only serious analysis so far, and I am looking forward for others, if any. Best Regards The thing is, in a properly configured development environment, it's local, so I can immediately read the logs, or just fire the script up with xdebug, or the errors will get caught in the editor. And I would NEVER imagine publicly exposing error messages in a production environment, so I'm just really confused as to what this offers, other than some seemingly small benefit in readability, specifically in firebug (and some other cruft that you really ought to remove, like the X-Formaldehyde header). And furthermore, this requires code changes from development - production, which is a problem I've always had with FirePHP, too, as that information does not belong in a production environment. As far as support for shared hosting is concerned, I've stated on this list several times that my firm opinion is shared hosting is shooting yourself in the foot (especially as a good VPS isn't that much more expensive, I'm paying $20/mo for mine). I think you best summed up why so many on this list think Formaldehyde isn't a very useful product yourself: the errors are shown on the client side. In theory, a good development environment already exposes this information to the developer and things should fail a lot more gracefully than error output for the user. You said that this project is something that doesn't already exist, perhaps you should consider that it doesn't exist because a sane development cycle precludes Formaldehyde's usefulness? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Sorry, I meant environment ... plus you'll have 1:1 production/development application _ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Right, errors should never be exposed, and error_reporting should be 0 in production but log function and the fact you can move Formaldehyde with the application means it does not require extra effort. No, display_errors should be turned off (with log_errors turned on) and error_reporting should be set to whatever standard you're coding to (preferably, E_ALL | E_STRICT, but a lot of people like to ignore E_NOTICE's). In few words, if in production Formaldehyde constant is false, and it must be false, nothing will be exposed. So it's not zero configuration, then? You do not need to change your code if you configure properly the defined constant while you can use what logs have to offers plus you'll have 1:1 production/development application How do I configure a constant without changing code? And I wasn't aware that a 1:1 development:production environment was a desirable thing. Things like xdebug, display_errors, inclued, etc. should be disabled for production and enabled for development. That simplicity is not offered so far by your suggested one as well, and please tell me how quick could be an instant PHP error on screen during tests or debug rather than a log analysis but in any case, thanks for the feedback. Run tail -f /path/to/your/php/error.log and watch the error logs as they're appended, if you need instant error notification. Honestly, I'm sure it sounds like this by now but I'm not trying to trash your application, but you've not done a very good job selling it. It looks like you took some keywords (ajax, zero configuration, portable, etc. etc.) and tried to apply them to your project, without actually seriously describing what your project is. As best I can tell, your project doesn't do much other than facilitate php debugging with Firebug, which is a very niche thing to do and any development cycle that I've been a part of has had no need to do such things, so I'm still failing to see Formaldahyde's usefulness. Maybe I've missed something? This is the only serious analysis so far, and I am looking forward for others, if any. Best Regards The thing is, in a properly configured development environment, it's local, so I can immediately read the logs, or just fire the script up with xdebug, or the errors will get caught in the editor. And I would NEVER imagine publicly exposing error messages in a production environment, so I'm just really confused as to what this offers, other than some seemingly small benefit in readability, specifically in firebug (and some other cruft that you really ought to remove, like the X-Formaldehyde header). And furthermore, this requires code changes from development - production, which is a problem I've always had with FirePHP, too, as that information does not belong in a production environment. As far as support for shared hosting is concerned, I've stated on this list several times that my firm opinion is shared hosting is shooting yourself in the foot (especially as a good VPS isn't that much more expensive, I'm paying $20/mo for mine). I think you best summed up why so many on this list think Formaldehyde isn't a very useful product yourself: the errors are shown on the client side. In theory, a good development environment already exposes this information to the developer and things should fail a lot more gracefully than error output for the user. You said that this project is something that doesn't already exist, perhaps you should consider that it doesn't exist because a sane development cycle precludes Formaldehyde's usefulness? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
No, display_errors should be turned off (with log_errors turned on) and error_reporting should be set to whatever standard you're coding to (preferably, E_ALL | E_STRICT, but a lot of people like to ignore E_NOTICE's). yep, it should be a production environment So it's not zero configuration, then? it is, described in the Security page inside the wiki, zero config means no extensions, no code to change except a single require ... we can call it zero config compared with everything else, specially something to compile or able to change the env as your solution does And I wasn't aware that a 1:1 development:production environment was a desirable thing. sure, PHP 4 on production and 5 as dev then is desiderable, right? What about specific PHP version, extensions, and other specific env problems/bugs? I hope you are not following errors that could appear only because of your plugns/extensions ... that would be a massive waste of time, isn't it? Things like xdebug, display_errors, inclued, etc. should be disabled for production and enabled for development. 1:1 is about what is running and where it is running ... you have an extension which is not official and which could cause false positives or could have other problems. I prefer same extensions in both dev/prod environments in order to be sure behaviors will be the same, got it? Run tail -f /path/to/your/php/error.log and watch the error logs as they're appended, if you need instant error notification. on windows dev env? and with at least two monitors to maintain a decent application size for client side testings? checking both logs and errors without a red line easily surfable with entire stack rather than pure text to analyze? I prefer Formaldehyde here Honestly, I'm sure it sounds like this by now but I'm not trying to trash your application, but you've not done a very good job selling it. It looks like you took some keywords (ajax, zero configuration, portable, etc. etc.) and tried to apply them to your project, without actually seriously describing what your project is. did you describe xdebug? I had a read, I got what it is, and I am replying ... As best I can tell, your project doesn't do much other than facilitate php debugging with Firebug, which is a very niche thing to do and any development cycle that I've been a part of has had no need to do such things, so I'm still failing to see Formaldahyde's usefulness. 'cause you have tail habit ... I do exactly what you do except I spot it quicker and I can isntantly red Errors expanding and contracting stack traces without any extra effort. This is the difference. If you think Formaldehyde is useless, I can say your way is useless as well, since the purpose is the same, the way logs/errors are showed is different. You had no choice before, and you'll probably never go for Formaldehyde, but you kinda confirmed there was nithing similar before, and I can tell you I am using it and I will do, so this project is not going to die soon, that is for sure, as xdebug will hopefully be maintained (as FirePHP or others) I call them alternatives, and I am an open minded person, I'll give xdebug a try indeed, maybe I can integrate some feature. Of course every of us developed Ajax application 'till now, does it mean the debug process is death as is? Can we try to improve it somehow? That is what I have done but everybody is free to choose his way, this is just a new one, and you already said why (facilitate php debugging). The fact you had no need is also because you had not this option, now you do. Regards P.S. Firebug is just one of compatible consoles, the best so far though, but not because Formaldehyde is for Firebug, client side does not matter, it will work with IE as well for those behind legacy companies (me right now, as example) _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
At 10:49 PM +0200 9/13/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply. You asked if anyone did any ajax? So, I replied and provided you with an example. Who cares if my example only has three pages? It could be hundreds -- the technique scales. In any event, I provided you an example that does not need your debugger -- it works and works good. But then you get all testy because I did not read your documentation. I never said I did AND there was never any requirement for me to do so before posting. I was simply replying to your question. But instead of establishing a constructive line of communication, you start off my criticizing me because I didn't read your documentation. You ask not to be treated as a noob, but you come in here telling others where to get off and bragging about your credentials (as if the rest of us can't do better) -- I'm not sure who you think you are, but you sure act like an noob. If nothing else, you have a lot to learn about making a point. tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:05 AM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: At 10:49 PM +0200 9/13/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply. You asked if anyone did any ajax? So, I replied and provided you with an example. Who cares if my example only has three pages? It could be hundreds -- the technique scales. In all fairness Tedd, your example is a bit of a joke. Send some JSON back and forth, do some database queries, and use a webservice all at the same time. Your AJAX calls won't be so simple then. I think the point of Andrea's project is to make debugging easier. Just like firebug and Charles do in their own respect. Is it something you can do without? Yes, especially if you have a great development environment set up. Is is something that could make inspecting what is getting thrown around in your AJAX calls and the PHP errors that occur easier? Yes, especially when sending JSON or remote object calls. Charles is a great tool when doing Flash and Flex remoting, and AJAX. I have the impression that Andrea's tool is perhaps doing something similar, but taking it a step further. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it is difficult to write off as useless. In any event, I provided you an example that does not need your debugger -- it works and works good. But then you get all testy because I did not read your documentation. I never said I did AND there was never any requirement for me to do so before posting. I was simply replying to your question. But instead of establishing a constructive line of communication, you start off my criticizing me because I didn't read your documentation. You ask not to be treated as a noob, but you come in here telling others where to get off and bragging about your credentials (as if the rest of us can't do better) -- I'm not sure who you think you are, but you sure act like an noob. If nothing else, you have a lot to learn about making a point. tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
I dont think I understood you completely.. Javascript debugger: Something you use to debug javascript. but Formaldehyde dosent make any seance if xhr object is not used. PHP Debugger: We cant use Formaldehyde to debug errors in every single PHP script. I am talking about pages called directly via the browsers URL bar. FirePHP on the other hand can be used with all PHP scripts. AJAX Debugger: I think the example given in Formaldehyde Google code page fits this category. If not may be you can give an example ? @Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the content type instead of text/plain. The Response text given by Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually (for example if I use jQuery.load()). Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
@Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the content type instead of text/plain. The Response text given by Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually (for example if I use jQuery.load()). Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default my mistake. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
my english is not perfect, right ... but let me unsderline something. The subject: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax -- - *PHP* *Error* *Debugger* It's a PHP Error Debugger specially suited for Ajax interactions. Secondly, The set_error_handler is not enough, write it even upside down and most crucial error like these will not be managed: E_ERROR, E_PARSE, E_CORE_ERROR, E_CORE_WARNING, E_COMPILE_ERROR, E_COMPILE_WARNING, E_STRICT Finally, this is the first code example in Formaldehyde page: ?php // generates a Fatal Error echo 'Hello', *iDoNotExist*(), ' ', 'World'; ? And the first result image: http://www.3site.eu/formaldehyde/no-formaldehyde.gif Which clearly *is* about an unmanaged Fatal Error Ajax responses are usually different, even if the called page is the same, and the reason could be an X-Request-With: XMLHttpHeader header, usually set by default with every library and for each Ajax interation. I like to reply about a subject, after I understand what is the subject is about ... but you are right, my English is not perfect, but PHP developers should be more careful about what PHP debug is, what is possible to do with set_error_handler, and how Formaldehyde manage *any* *kind* of *php* *error*, something I cannot find in any other library or framework. Regards Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:20:58 -0400 From: pa...@quillandmouse.com To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 12:23:44AM +0200, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: Exactly Ben, except when PHP fails, even with a Fatal Error, the page has status 200, we need to understand which call failed between hundreds of potential calls in the debugger, and errors could pass silently. With Formaldehyde, accordingly with your predefined error_reporting level, above situation will never happen, and the entire process, without changing anything, will be much simpler, as Ben already described. So yes Tedd, you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... please try to understand it before other comments, maybe you'll discover it's extremely simple, and hopefully useful. I suspect your English is getting in the way. You're calling this an AJAX debugger. Debugging in PHP is relatively straightforward, if you set the error level properly and build your own error handler, etc. So people on this list would probably think of a PHP debugger as an unimportant piece of software. Debugging in Javascript is more complex and difficult, and the responses you're getting on the list sound like people think Formaldehyde is for debugging Javascript (which PHP programmers often aren't very interested in). On the Google code page for Formaldehyde, you only emphasize PHP debugging, as that's the only type of error example you give. If the point of Formaldehyde is to debug PHP code, then you should call it a PHP code debugger, not an AJAX code debugger. Tedd's right-- basic AJAX transactions are incredibly simple, and once the code is written (it can be copied from any number of books), it needs no further work. General Javascript is a different matter-- it can be quite complex and quite hard to debug. But AJAX is a very narrow application of Javascript. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for AJAX code, then you should change the examples and text of your Google code page. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for Javascript code, then you should change the examples on your Google code page to show Javascript errors, and call it a Javascript debugger. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for PHP code, then call it a PHP code debugger. The examples on your Google code page fit this. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Ajax interactions usually produces different results, 'cause an Ajax interaction that returns an entire document does not make much sense. Formaldehyde is for Ajax interaction, which in my case I always catch via headers checks or special parameters. Formaldehyde is client agnostic, FireBUG or FirePHP could or could not be there, but providing both server and client code, we do not have to worry about anything. Finally, even if called manually, the page will have a status 500 and the error will be still readable, being it the first JSON encoded key but obviously, for manual interactions it is extremely simple to spot the error, if any, since PHP clearly shows it in the page, if there are no other debuggers. The stuff about application/json does not make much sense to me, and FireBUG shows automatically things passed via eval, it is not about the response type (also because it could simply be a security problem) Again, Formaldehyde, is client side agnostic, so if we have IE, rather than Firefox, or Safari, Chrome, Opera, Formaldehyde will work, helping with unmanaged PHP errors (or managed one, if we manually throw an exception or trigger an error) Regards From: kranthi...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:39:43 +0530 To: pa...@quillandmouse.com CC: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger I dont think I understood you completely.. Javascript debugger: Something you use to debug javascript. but Formaldehyde dosent make any seance if xhr object is not used. PHP Debugger: We cant use Formaldehyde to debug errors in every single PHP script. I am talking about pages called directly via the browsers URL bar. FirePHP on the other hand can be used with all PHP scripts. AJAX Debugger: I think the example given in Formaldehyde Google code page fits this category. If not may be you can give an example ? @Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the content type instead of text/plain. The Response text given by Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually (for example if I use jQuery.load()). Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
as margin note, the project page changed name, hopefully less ambiguous: Formandehyde - Zero Config Ajax Based PHP Error Debugger Regards _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
At 12:20 AM +0200 9/12/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:37:30 -0400 To: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net From: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger The only things that may go wrong are in the data I am sending to the ajax routine AND/OR the way my php scripts deal with the data when they receive it. Formaldehyde tells you in the client debugger what was wrong in the php code indeed. Did you actually read the page before you replied? No, I didn't read the page before I replied. YOU asked a question and I replied (read the thread) -- I'm sorry that I did. I'll refrain from doing it again. tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Andrea Giammarchi wrote: something I cannot find in any other library or framework. This should tell you something then... -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lucas li...@cmsws.com wrote: Andrea Giammarchi wrote: something I cannot find in any other library or framework. This should tell you something then... If something like Formandehyde isn't useful, then why is Charles so popular (note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is popular with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so) http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet fight, so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd, the ajax example you linked to does not need any debugging, that is for sure. -- Jim Lucas Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V by William Shakespeare -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? Well, with Formaldehyde you do not need to implement anything. Moreover, ASAIK, Formaldehyde is the only one able to catch even Fatal Error ... in few words, it catches everything. I would like to know other opinions, I mean people that actually spent few minutes to understand what is Formaldehyde before they reply ... Regards Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:47 -0400 To: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net From: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Subject: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger At 11:35 PM +0200 9/10/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: Being something nobody thought before I was expecting some comment ... zero Ajax developers here? Andrea: No, I develop in ajax. Here's one of my demos: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ Please note that the above site can be expanded/edited/altered without ever touching the ajax code that makes it work. As such, I don't need an ajax debugger because the above is an example of an ajax site that never needs any ajax debugging. Please note. the above is dead in the water with javascript disabled. But I have ways around that. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photos-share.aspx?tab=1
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? What's to debug? The site -- http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch the code. Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
How do you debug Ajax calls? I am starting to think you do not do it, or your applications are extremely simple... do you transform only at the end the result? How do you debug the transformation if something go wrong? How do you test via client if something goes wrong? You simply do not care, ok, fine, Formaldehyde is not for you, not today at least. Thanks for the reply in any case, better than nothing. Regards Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:35:43 -0400 To: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net From: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? What's to debug? The site -- http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch the code. Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
So nobody here debugs interaction and nobody uses Selenium for application tests ... fair enough. Would be nice to receive some response for those developers whose deal everyday with big/complex applications, 'cause here seems nobody i susing FirePHP or frameworks debuggers while numbers tell me the scenario is totally different. Regards Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger From: a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk To: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com CC: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:39:12 +0100 On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote: At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? What's to debug? The site -- http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch the code. Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing, you can debug the Javascript parts easily enough. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk _ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photos-share.aspx?tab=1
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote: At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? What's to debug? The site -- http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch the code. Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing, you can debug the Javascript parts easily enough. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
I do use FirePHP and your project looks interesting to evaluate. Will check it out in a couple of days. It would be more interesting if they really are complimentary. I think people who use FireBug's console API would be able to appreciate FirePHP/formaldehyde more. However, I do NOT deny the fact that not every project needs them. --Bipin Upadhyay. Andrea Giammarchi wrote: So nobody here debugs interaction and nobody uses Selenium for application tests ... fair enough. Would be nice to receive some response for those developers whose deal everyday with big/complex applications, 'cause here seems nobody i susing FirePHP or frameworks debuggers while numbers tell me the scenario is totally different. Regards Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger From: a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk To: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com CC: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:39:12 +0100 On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote: At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for production ... I guess you have implented your own error manager/debugger, right? What's to debug? The site -- http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/ -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch the code. Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing, you can debug the Javascript parts easily enough. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk _ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photos-share.aspx?tab=1
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Agreed, I have never said that, but I cannot even think about a modern website developed without browser tools such Firebug or others. That is why I was kinda surprised by zero reaction. Your feedback will be more than welcome, thanks. Regards Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:39:21 +0530 From: muxical.g...@gmail.com To: an_...@hotmail.com CC: a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk; tedd.sperl...@gmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger I do use FirePHP and your project looks interesting to evaluate. Will check it out in a couple of days. It would be more interesting if they really are complimentary. I think people who use FireBug's console API would be able to appreciate FirePHP/formaldehyde more. However, I do NOT deny the fact that not every project needs them. _ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:37:30 -0400 To: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net From: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger The only things that may go wrong are in the data I am sending to the ajax routine AND/OR the way my php scripts deal with the data when they receive it. Formaldehyde tells you in the client debugger what was wrong in the php code indeed. Did you actually read the page before you replied? Examine this: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Now, where can something go wrong? In the PHP Page, that is what Formaldehyde is about!!! _ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Exactly Ben, except when PHP fails, even with a Fatal Error, the page has status 200, we need to understand which call failed between hundreds of potential calls in the debugger, and errors could pass silently. With Formaldehyde, accordingly with your predefined error_reporting level, above situation will never happen, and the entire process, without changing anything, will be much simpler, as Ben already described. So yes Tedd, you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... please try to understand it before other comments, maybe you'll discover it's extremely simple, and hopefully useful. Regards Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:43:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger From: bdun...@agentintellect.com To: tedd.sperl...@gmail.com CC: an_...@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net Examine this: http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js Now, where can something go wrong? I suppose slave.php could fail with a 4xx or 5xx response. Then, most likely, the user would be left clicking on a link that does nothing. In an edge case the body of the error-response might include a '|' character, which would really mix things up. Certainly, you wouldn't /need/ Formaldehyde to debug this, but it might make the process a bit simpler -- if I read the docs correctly, Formaldehyde would let you see and grasp the whole problem instantly from a browser, without having to resort to web-server logs, etc. Ben _ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx
Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 12:23:44AM +0200, Andrea Giammarchi wrote: Exactly Ben, except when PHP fails, even with a Fatal Error, the page has status 200, we need to understand which call failed between hundreds of potential calls in the debugger, and errors could pass silently. With Formaldehyde, accordingly with your predefined error_reporting level, above situation will never happen, and the entire process, without changing anything, will be much simpler, as Ben already described. So yes Tedd, you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... please try to understand it before other comments, maybe you'll discover it's extremely simple, and hopefully useful. I suspect your English is getting in the way. You're calling this an AJAX debugger. Debugging in PHP is relatively straightforward, if you set the error level properly and build your own error handler, etc. So people on this list would probably think of a PHP debugger as an unimportant piece of software. Debugging in Javascript is more complex and difficult, and the responses you're getting on the list sound like people think Formaldehyde is for debugging Javascript (which PHP programmers often aren't very interested in). On the Google code page for Formaldehyde, you only emphasize PHP debugging, as that's the only type of error example you give. If the point of Formaldehyde is to debug PHP code, then you should call it a PHP code debugger, not an AJAX code debugger. Tedd's right-- basic AJAX transactions are incredibly simple, and once the code is written (it can be copied from any number of books), it needs no further work. General Javascript is a different matter-- it can be quite complex and quite hard to debug. But AJAX is a very narrow application of Javascript. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for AJAX code, then you should change the examples and text of your Google code page. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for Javascript code, then you should change the examples on your Google code page to show Javascript errors, and call it a Javascript debugger. If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for PHP code, then call it a PHP code debugger. The examples on your Google code page fit this. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
