Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:26 AM, wrote: > > Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people > this way? It really can't hurt. Maybe it could even ×10 (or more) the founds. On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Heow Goodman wrote: > If we're talking small potatoes, I'm sure there are a number of US > entities (ALU, LispNYC) that would happily front their EIN for a cool > kickstarter. Nice idea. Maybe Alex could get in touch with someone here? There also is http://www.ulule.com/ (european kickstarter). chri -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
> From: Alexander Burger > [...] And I can assure you that PicoLisp will never be a closed > system. > > My personal opintion has always been that developments should be shared, > and that the term "intellectual property" per se is unethical. Well said. If/when other implementations try to compete with you, this statement will give you a competitive advantage. > [...] But I also need to survive economically, > and it is really tough for a freelancer to do so. I understand. I thought you could release the design (even PCB layouts if you end up going that direction) and still sell the hardware. Most people never manufacture their own hardware--that includes me. But I'm a happier customer when I know that the product I'm purchasing has longevity--well known designs live longer. I still have my c64 programmer's manual complete with circuit diagrams, which will come in handy if I want to figure out how to connect it to a modern display device! Secret designs become black boxes once the parent company loses interest--no new display adapters (for example) and no hope of making your own. It sounds like you know this well already. :) > [...] 95 percent of the sources of the > PilMCU are standard 64-bit PicoLisp. I think I get it. Emu is another arch, like ppc64 or x86-64. Nice. :) I think that this product will have the longevity I seek. Carry on! Cheers, --Dave
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
If we're talking small potatoes, I'm sure there are a number of US entities (ALU, LispNYC) that would happily front their EIN for a cool kickstarter. On 2014-9-22, 5:26 AM, andr...@itship.ch wrote: > Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! > I really believe this is/will be huge. > > 1. kickstarter > Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen > oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by > creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a > bit complex for non-us people. > So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use > this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from > this. > Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people > this way? > > 2. PilMCU applications > Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm > personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing > something similiar to Intel NUC > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? > So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine > little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack > security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. > This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software > on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko > (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) > > 3. OpenSource legitimacy > About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got > it wrong: > > With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with > a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that > the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code > and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. > > Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does > nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). > And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so > isn't this actually an instance were we can "proof" WHAT the hardware and > software of this thing is doing, even when running? > > > >> Good morning everyone! >> >> Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning >> weekend :) >> >> Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share >> my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: >> 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo >> 2. Verilog source code availability >> >> >> 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here >> before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i >> understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the >> early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the >> verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would >> be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option >> would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an >> FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA >> hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their >> inputs ;) >> >> 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually >> there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too >> release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible, >> me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a >> robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the >> best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp >> community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the >> actual hardware is ready ;) >> >> Great weekend everyone, cheers!! >> >> BR, >> Geo >> >> >> >> >> >> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Christophe Gragnic >> writes: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David >>> wrote: If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll buy a few >>> >>> Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of >>> those.» >>> I'd buy a few too. >> >> Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give >> them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity >> to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a >> technical but an economic success too. >> >> You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public >> before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... >> >> -- >> cheers, >> Thorsten >> >> -- >> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >> > > -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Sandeep and Andreas! Thanks for your support :) Andreas, thanks for your great inputs! It's indeed what we are looking forward. With everyone showing support and interest really is a motivation booster and now i'm preparing myself to next stage which is synthesizing the Verilog code to be used on actual FPGA board. I already found a good candidate for the FPGA board but if you want to see, these are my line-ups, sorry its in Chinese :( Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】-淘宝网 Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场类实力旺铺,选购Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】,想了解更多Altera CycloneIV FPGA开发板/学习板 EP4CE6E22C8N 【可开发票】,请进入zrtec... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6-淘宝网 Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6,想了解更多Altera FPGA 开发板学习板 NIOS 赠送USB下载器、电源线 EP4CE6,请进入dongguo100的店... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA-淘宝网 FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA,想了解更多FPGA开发板/CPLD开发板/学习板/视频教程/送下载器/包邮/ALTERA,请进入qqiu1234... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板-淘宝网 FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板,想了解更多FPGA开发板FPGA学习板 Altera EP2C5Q208 NIOSII SOPC实验板,请进入baixunltd的店铺... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频-淘宝网 FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网选购热销单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场商品FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频,想了解更多FPGA外扩板/扩展板 DM9000/CY7C68013/WM8731/VGA 以太网USB音频,请进... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30-淘宝网 FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30-淘宝网 欢迎前来淘宝网单片机/开发板/学习板-IC集成电路/电机-电子元器件市场-3C数码配件市场类实力旺铺,选购FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30,想了解更多FPGA开发板ALTERA CycloneIV视频NIOS图像DDR彩色VGA音频 EP4CE30,... View on item.taobao.com Preview by Yahoo BR, Geo On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:33 PM, "andr...@itship.ch" wrote: Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! I really believe this is/will be huge. 1. kickstarter Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a bit complex for non-us people. So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from this. Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people this way? 2. PilMCU applications Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing something similiar to Intel NUC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) 3. OpenSource legitimacy About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got it wrong: With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so isn't this actually an instance were we can "proof" WHAT the hardware and software of this thing is doing, even when running? > Good morning everyone! > > Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning > weekend :) > > Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share > my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: > 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo > 2. Verilog source code availability > > > 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here > before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i > understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the > early p
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Once more, congratulation! This is awesome! I really believe this is/will be huge. 1. kickstarter Afaik you need a US tax number to use kickstarter, so either a us citizen oder better a us company is necessary. It's possible to do a setup by creating a cheap delaware company, I know guys who did it, but its quite a bit complex for non-us people. So I would recommend using another platform, or even first trying to use this mailling list or a custom website to set a crowd project up from this. Maybe you don't even need a crowdfunding project, if we find enough people this way? 2. PilMCU applications Beside the wearable/mobile/robotics applications (go for it!), I'm personally interested in picolisp server hardware. Maybe producing something similiar to Intel NUC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing) ? So extendable RAM plus storage plus network plug, and we would have a fine little box for all kind of server applications. No OS overhead, no stack security issues (heartbleed), just beautiful picolisp. This would also allow to produce/sell custom solutions, e.g. put software on cheap tiny hardware box, sell the device, similiar to kinko (https://kinko.me/the-kinko-project/) 3. OpenSource legitimacy About this one I'm not sure, its more a philosophical thing, maybe I got it wrong: With traditional soft- and hardware, there is the problem, that even with a copy of the source code of a certain application, we can't be sure that the actual running instance of the application uses the same source code and didn't get altered by a malware-injecting compiler. Let's say we have hardware which interprets picolisp directly, and does nothing else (which one can proof about a certain piece of hardware). And picolisp applicaiton is always readable clear text source code, so isn't this actually an instance were we can "proof" WHAT the hardware and software of this thing is doing, even when running? > Good morning everyone! > > Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning > weekend :) > > Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share > my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: > 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo > 2. Verilog source code availability > > > 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here > before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i > understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the > early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the > verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would > be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option > would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an > FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA > hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their > inputs ;) > > 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually > there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too > release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible, > me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a > robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the > best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp > community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the > actual hardware is ready ;) > > Great weekend everyone, cheers!! > > BR, > Geo > > > > > > On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz > wrote: > > > > Christophe Gragnic > writes: > >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David >> wrote: >>> If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll >>> buy a few >> >> Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of >> those.» >> I'd buy a few too. > > Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give > them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity > to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a > technical but an economic success too. > > You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public > before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... > > -- > cheers, > Thorsten > > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe > -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Oh boy! I've been thinking of something like this for a while. What is the low-hanging fruit here, in the sense of, what applications might we do faster/cheaper/better in hardware like this, than can be done otherwise? The idea of pilog in hardware excites me too ... maybe time to go back and dust off old 1980s Fifth Generation Computer Systems project application ideas - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer Maybe some cool application that can be done better now with pilog in hardware than could be done otherwise. Same for the old lisp-machine/Symbolics applications, I wonder if there is anything useful from Symbolics' experience, in retrospect? The Fifth Generation Computer project was considered a failure but seems to be relevant to to picolisp (and pilog) in hardware. It would be really cool if picolisp in hardware ends up accomplishing things that caused Symbolics Inc and The Fifth Generation Computer Systems project to stumble. I expect this to be the case. Doug On Fri, 9/19/14, Alexander Burger wrote: Subject: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU) To: picolisp@software-lab.de Date: Friday, September 19, 2014, 4:39 AM Hello List, we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me. Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and extensions to PicoLisp. PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the operating system: * Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack * The built-in database is extended to hold a "file system" * One SSD per database file for mass storage * "Processes" run as tasks and coroutines * Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction * Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip. At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture). How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, manufacture and distribute the real thing. We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions and/or robotics research? Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? For the fun of it, here is a sample session: $ make mcu && vvp -M. -mtty mcu # Build and start Verilog engine : $ make emu && ./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator : Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the normal, full DB functionality : (show *DB) {1} (7 . {17}) T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146}) -> {1} you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained in external symbols: : (dir) -> ("lib.l" "lib/") : (dir "lib") -> ("btree.l" "db.l" "dbg.l" "misc.l" "pilog.l" "sq.l") : (in "lib/db.l" (read)) -> (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1))) : (out "foo/bar/mumble.l" (prinl "Hello world")) -> "Hello world" : (in "foo/bar/mumble.l" (line)) -> ("H" "e" "l" "l" "o" " " "w" "o" "r" "l" "d") : (dir "foo/bar") -> ("mumble.l") : (cd "foo/bar") -> "foo/bar/" : (dir) -> ("mumble.l") : (pwd) -> "foo/bar/" Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root: : (scan) "foo/bar/mumble.l" {172} "lib.l" {2} "lib/btree.l" {64} "lib/db.l" {105} "lib/dbg.l" {20} "lib/misc.l" {56} "lib/pilog.l" {146} "lib/sq.l" {166} They point to external symbols, like {2} for "lib.l". (load '{2}) is equivalent to (load "lib.l") The values of these symbols hold the file size: : (show '{2}) {2} 12401 -> {2} They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly in dynamically maintained DB blocks. The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :) ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Jakob Eriksson wrote: > > > On September 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM Thorsten Jolitz > wrote: > > "Loyall, David" > > writes: > > > > > The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the > > > verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? > > > > I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull > > kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it > > instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files? > > +1 > > regards, > Jakob > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe > been a lurker in the list since it's beginnings.. +1
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On September 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM Thorsten Jolitz wrote: > "Loyall, David" > writes: > > > The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the > > verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? > > I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull > kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it > instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files? +1 regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Loyall, On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 08:53:00PM +, Loyall, David wrote: > > From: Thorsten Jolitz > > > It's a Lisp machine. It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with > > > closed design). :) > > > > I'm sure its technical design is not crippled at all. > > I am new to your mailing list and as such I'd like to listen more than > I speak. But please don't speak for me. :) It should be clear that my > implication was that *any* closed-source design is limited. I'll say it > differently to be clear: open designs always have an advantage in the > 'survival of the fittest' game. I agree with you. And I can assure you that PicoLisp will never be a closed system. My personal opintion has always been that developments should be shared, and that the term "intellectual property" per se is unethical. But what should be honoured is the effort and labor developers put into their work. I'm working on PicoLisp since 26 years. It generated my income, for the projects I developed with it. But a lot more time than working for commercial projects I've put into the development of PicoLisp itself, and I *never* got any financial reward for it (except once or a single bitcoin donation a while back, thanks again Jon!). I enjoyed it, and I did it for the fun of it. And of course because it made my project work so much more efficient. But I also need to survive economically, and it is really tough for a freelancer to do so. In that regard, the PilMCU project is a "job" for us. We have put a lot of time into it, and we'll have to spend more time on it. I don't want money for the system or the sources, but just a reward for our time. That's why we need an investor. But if we publish everything we did for PilMCU so far, do you think anybody will care? No. Instead, we should build a useful product from it, and get a fair share. After that, I'm ready to publish it "freely", as everything else of PicoLisp. BTW, all involved details are already freely available. PilMCU just modified and rounded up what is there. Just take a closer look; the PicoLisp language and virtual machine (as of "doc64/asm" in the distribution). Specifically, it is no "closed-source design". 95 percent of the sources of the PilMCU are standard 64-bit PicoLisp. We directly compile slightly modified versions of what you find in "src64/*.l" to Verilog. We just put in a lot of work and time to map it logically to a hardware implementation, and prepare to produce it physically. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Dear Alex, > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) Fantastic! This is truly amazing. Congratulations! R On 19 September 2014 17:09, Alexander Burger wrote: > Hello List, > > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) > > We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me. > Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and > extensions to PicoLisp. > > > PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A > truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the > operating system: > >* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack >* The built-in database is extended to hold a "file system" >* One SSD per database file for mass storage >* "Processes" run as tasks and coroutines >* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction >* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips > > The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and > power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later > stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip. > > At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an > emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture). > > > How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, > manufacture and distribute the real thing. > > We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a > "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions > and/or robotics research? > > Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? > > > For the fun of it, here is a sample session: > >$ make mcu && vvp -M. -mtty mcu # Build and start Verilog engine >: > >$ make emu && ./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator >: > > Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The > database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the > normal, full DB functionality > >: (show *DB) >{1} (7 . {17}) > T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146}) >-> {1} > > you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained > in external symbols: > >: (dir) >-> ("lib.l" "lib/") > >: (dir "lib") >-> ("btree.l" "db.l" "dbg.l" "misc.l" "pilog.l" "sq.l") > >: (in "lib/db.l" (read)) >-> (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1))) > >: (out "foo/bar/mumble.l" (prinl "Hello world")) >-> "Hello world" >: (in "foo/bar/mumble.l" (line)) >-> ("H" "e" "l" "l" "o" " " "w" "o" "r" "l" "d") > >: (dir "foo/bar") >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (cd "foo/bar") >-> "foo/bar/" >: (dir) >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (pwd) >-> "foo/bar/" > > Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root: > >: (scan) >"foo/bar/mumble.l" {172} >"lib.l" {2} >"lib/btree.l" {64} >"lib/db.l" {105} >"lib/dbg.l" {20} >"lib/misc.l" {56} >"lib/pilog.l" {146} >"lib/sq.l" {166} > > They point to external symbols, like {2} for "lib.l". > >(load '{2}) > > is equivalent to > >(load "lib.l") > > The values of these symbols hold the file size: > >: (show '{2}) >{2} 12401 >-> {2} > > They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly > in dynamically maintained DB blocks. > > The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :) > > ♪♫ Alex > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Rick, On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:14:20AM -0400, Rick Lyman wrote: > How about an indiegogo or kickstarter project for a FPGA board that would > plug into this: > > http://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-development-kit/ > > or this: > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13097 > > or this: > > http://www.mouser.com/new/Freescale-Semiconductor/freescale_tower_system/?gclid=CjwKEAjwqO-gBRCEyp2Fufm0lBASJAAZrX-5AWIHEXmSxSISYGndWQZ6YpVpHo0i65Tj9FJb43o4whoCY__w_wcB > > or Thanks for the links! We will have to investigate those possibilities. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Good morning everyone! Wow! thanks for all this nice feedback's, a nice way to greet a morning weekend :) Btw sorry if i cannot individually reply on each topic, but let me share my thoughts on this two topic that is recently on the table: 1. Kickstarter or Indigogo 2. Verilog source code availability 1. Actually this is what i suggested to Alex for we had a customer here before that we produced his product from kicksarter. But from what i understand, inorder to register our project we need a video to show the early progress of the project. Its either we can make a video showing the verilog simulator running OR emulator in C running? but i think it would be great to show an actual FPGA board running the pilMCU, this option would be more attractive right? so my primary goal as of now is to get an FPGA board from online and start synthesize the code for the actual FPGA hardware. Anyone with experience with FPGA is welcome to provide their inputs ;) 2. This i need to discuss with Alex first. But if you ask me, actually there were good points shared here, but i think its still too early too release the code for it is still at design stage and as much as possible, me and Alex would like to stabilize the core first and also to have a robust kit first. If anyone wants to try the machine, as of the moment the best way is to run the 'emu' version :) but don't worry, picolisp community will surely be the first to have an actual hands-on once the actual hardware is ready ;) Great weekend everyone, cheers!! BR, Geo On Saturday, September 20, 2014 5:46 AM, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: Christophe Gragnic writes: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David > wrote: >> If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll >> buy a few > > Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of > those.» > I'd buy a few too. Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a technical but an economic success too. You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Christophe Gragnic writes: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David > wrote: >> If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll >> buy a few > > Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of > those.» > I'd buy a few too. Thats the idea, I would say: buy the chips and support the project. Give them time to prepare a nice kickstarter project. Enjoy the opportunity to support a wonderful free software project to become not only a technical but an economic success too. You ask them to give away their most important 'capital' to the public before even starting the business. Not a good advice, really ... -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Loyall, David wrote: > If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll buy a few Someone on Hacker News: «where's the kickstarter page? I want a few of those.» I'd buy a few too. chri -- http://profgra.org/lycee/ (site pro) http://delicious.com/profgraorg (liens, favoris) https://twitter.com/profgraorg http://microalg.info -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
> From: Thorsten Jolitz > > It's a Lisp machine. It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with > > closed design). :) > > I'm sure its technical design is not crippled at all. I am new to your mailing list and as such I'd like to listen more than I speak. But please don't speak for me. :) It should be clear that my implication was that *any* closed-source design is limited. I'll say it differently to be clear: open designs always have an advantage in the 'survival of the fittest' game. A chip that can 'have a descendent' any time anybody wants to make one will be more 'successful' in the chip ecosystem than a chip that is owned by some individual or company. Again, it's a Lisp Machine... Its future is something that should be considered. > > It still needs additional development, right Geo and Alex? Many hands > > make light work. > > With 'many hands' involved we would not have most amazing PicoLisp but > rather a kind of 'small common lisp', thats for sure ... PicoLisp is already released under an MIT-Expat license. I was referring to the Verilog source of PilMCU. > > Have you seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8340283 ? Folks > > are looking for the source already. > > Of course they are, but what will folks give in return? If you sell a FPGA configured to be an open source Lisp CPU, I'll buy a few
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
"Loyall, David" writes: >> From: Thorsten Jolitz >> "Loyall, David" writes: >> > The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the >> > verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? >> >> I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull >> kickstarter >> project, so why not try to build a business idea around it instead >> of just giving >> away the verilog source and build files? > > It's a Lisp machine. It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with > closed design). :) I'm sure its technical design is not crippled at all. > It still needs additional development, right Geo and Alex? Many hands > make light work. With 'many hands' involved we would not have most amazing PicoLisp but rather a kind of 'small common lisp', thats for sure ... > Have you seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8340283 ? Folks > are looking for the source already. Of course they are, but what will folks give in return? > You can still make money on "open source" hardware. In fact, that's a > new trend. https://www.google.com/search?q=open+hardware Open-source software has been pretty much a one-way business for Alex so far - he creates the software and gives a lot of assistence to (new) users, but how many of them go on and press the 'donate' button on the website? It would be only fair (and very beneficial for the PicoLisp project) if there would be donations in both directions, and PilMCU looks pretty interesting wrt this goal. -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Thorsten, > I suggest to proceed in 2 steps: > 1. make me a team member > 2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story > ;-) Great! That's the way to go! ;-) > I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my > neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMCU's USPs, I > could try to make first contacts if that helps. Sure. Let's talk more about that via IRC and phone. > If you find out e.g. how an "Embedded Lisp Machine" can be really useful > for the car industry, we will all have PicoLisp jobs pretty soon! That would be wonderful :) ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
This has made it to #4 on Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com). That’s pretty impressive, Alex! — Rand-- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
> From: Thorsten Jolitz > "Loyall, David" writes: > > The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the > > verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? > > I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull kickstarter > project, so why not try to build a business idea around it instead of just > giving > away the verilog source and build files? It's a Lisp machine. It probably shouldn't be born crippled (with closed design). :) It still needs additional development, right Geo and Alex? Many hands make light work. Have you seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8340283 ? Folks are looking for the source already. You can still make money on "open source" hardware. In fact, that's a new trend. https://www.google.com/search?q=open+hardware Cheers, --Dave -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Loyall, David wrote: > > The Internet would like to run this locally. Yes ! > Would you post the verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? Now PicoLisp should not be jealous of BF anymore: https://github.com/briandef/bf16 (Quite funny that Alex's announce arrived a day or two after I was aware of bf16.) I had some questions but I see a mail from George… chri -- http://profgra.org/lycee/ (site pro) http://delicious.com/profgraorg (liens, favoris) https://twitter.com/profgraorg http://microalg.info -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
"Loyall, David" writes: > The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the > verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files? -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
RE: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
> From: picolisp@software-lab.de [mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de] On Behalf Of > George Orais > [...] pilMCU is running under Icarus Verilog Simulator [...] Nice. The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? Cheers, --Dave -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Alex! First of all, thanks for the wonderful tool PicoLisp and also for giving me this opportunity to work with you on this exciting project :) Please let me share some of the exciting feature that we can provide especially on the embedded perspective. Hi Everyone! I am Geo and i'm currently working here in Shenzhen China. As you can see the announcement from Alex, i would also like to point some cool features that hopefully could attract the crowd :) Please excuse my English for it is not may native language so i just write it on bullet-point format: * A 64bit MCU * An MCU which uses Lisp as its low-level language * An MCU that you can program thru UART, LAN or any means as long as you can access the pilMCU core. No need proprietary programmer/debugger used by today's MCU like JTAG * A Lisp machine kit that utilize today's technology (Micro SD, DDR, PS2, I2C, SPI) and because of I2C and SPI we can easily add USB, WIFI and even Bluetooth ;) * A system that is running Lisp (PicoLisp) on bare-metal, meaning the user/developer can directly interact/develop with the hardware using Lisp code without the restriction provided by today's host OS like Windows, Linux, or Android? * A new style of programming MCU which would be an interactive way, no more compiling then debugging :) And i think there is still many more exciting feature that we still can add with your help and feedback's :) As of the moment please let me provide my insight on these points that i recently read: 1. "when PicoLisp" is seen running on _actual_ hardware. 2. to run PilMCU on a raspberry pi now or in the future 3. the real money is nowadays 4. how an "Embedded Lisp Machine" can be really useful 1. For I am doing the Verilog part, as of the moment pilMCU is running under Icarus Verilog Simulator, but soon i will get and off-the-shelve FPGA kits with complete peripherals and try to shoehorn pilMCU to that existing board. It wont affect the core for i abstracted the interfaces so that it would be easy for me to port the core on any FPGA boards. This is proof of concept stage, and once we have a fully tested prototype, our ultimate goal is to upgrade into ASIC chip or even into a full chip fabrication, i know this is still far but with everyone's help i think we can do this ;) 2. Actually this is what Alex told me when i proposed to him this project. Yes i agree about the RPi is today's trend, even the TI BBoard is also cool to run PicoLisp.. and even more i even have the XMOS multi-core MCU board which i was tempted to do some Lisp on it. But i really feel that it is the right time to express the Lisp way on its own hardware. Today's prices per components is far low than the time Lisp machines was booming, so i think why not try to make one again and see the difference? Lets not easily get intimidated with those existing kits, i know its hard to compete with them, but we are not here to compete, but we are here to show a different and more cooler alternative to run Lisp :) 3. Base from my daily work here, i can say that real money these days are anything related to the smartphone which is either the smartwatch or health bands, im currenly working on both products :) and the key ingredients are wireless connectivity which is BLE or NFC.. and from what i heard is the future is to make all devices and appliances to be connected to the internet? so RF chip makers are now trying to make a low power WIFI chip.. but anyway those are just rumours, lets just see :) but back with pilMCU, i think this would certainly attract mostly on the robotics field? something like the Lego Mindstorm? or as what Alex mention maybe at first will be an educational kit for students and hobbyist? but i know its still early to speculate :) so lets just build the prototype first and from there will see how the crowd reacts ;) 4. I think this is already answered from above statements :) but if we really need a something that can be our punch line of making this project, then how about this: "Embedded Lisp Machine" A machine that is designed based from a past but robust principle using with today's present technology to produce a better future system.. sorry i think it sounds ridiculous but for now, just lets try the water with one feet first :) Sorry for this long post guys, but thanks for your feedback's, hoping to hear more suggestions on how we can build a better package of this pilMCU kit that we all can enjoy in the future. cheers!! Bis dann, Geo On Friday, September 19, 2014 10:28 PM, Mattias Sundblad wrote: Great news and good work! Congratulations! I second what Joe wrote a bit earlier, it truly is inspiring to see PicoLisp improve. best regards, Mattias On 19 September 2014 15:24, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: Alexander Burger writes: > >Hi Alex (and George), > >> we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) > >though not really a hardware/low-level guy, I think
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 03:25:09PM +0200, Jakob Eriksson wrote: > > > Funds should flow in when "picoLisp OS" is seen running with all > > > virtues, on existing hardware. > > > > Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware > > project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard > > OS. > > I read that as, "when PicoLisp" is seen running on _actual_ hardware. > (Not currently existing.) Oops, right! I partly misunderstood Alabhya's statement :) > Was I right Alabhya? ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Both Jakob and Alex are right! 1. PicoLisp has to "infiltrate" existing real metal hardware to demonstrate/appeal to less techy, in general people with VC. 2. Comparative benchmarks on same underlying hardware will be helpful to showcase.
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Great news and good work! Congratulations! I second what Joe wrote a bit earlier, it truly is inspiring to see PicoLisp improve. best regards, Mattias On 19 September 2014 15:24, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: > Alexander Burger writes: > > Hi Alex (and George), > > > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) > > though not really a hardware/low-level guy, I think this sounds pretty > exiting! > > > How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, > > manufacture and distribute the real thing. > > I suggest to proceed in 2 steps: > > 1. make me a team member > > 2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story > > ;-) > > > We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a > > "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions > > and/or robotics research? > > > > Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? > > I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my > neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMCU's USPs, I > could try to make first contacts if that helps. > > Not sure what would be a realistic business idea, but maybe start by > figuring out where the real money is nowadays (energy sector, > automotive sector, mobile-phones etc) and then think about a possible > niche to > fill. > > Makes things much easier when potential clients drown in profits ;) > > If you find out e.g. how an "Embedded Lisp Machine" can be really useful > for the car industry, we will all have PicoLisp jobs pretty soon! > > -- > cheers, > Thorsten > > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
How about an indiegogo or kickstarter project for a FPGA board that would plug into this: http://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-development-kit/ or this: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13097 or this: http://www.mouser.com/new/Freescale-Semiconductor/freescale_tower_system/?gclid=CjwKEAjwqO-gBRCEyp2Fufm0lBASJAAZrX-5AWIHEXmSxSISYGndWQZ6YpVpHo0i65Tj9FJb43o4whoCY__w_wcB or -rl On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Alexander Burger wrote: > Hello List, > > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) > > We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me. > Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and > extensions to PicoLisp. > > > PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A > truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the > operating system: > >* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack >* The built-in database is extended to hold a "file system" >* One SSD per database file for mass storage >* "Processes" run as tasks and coroutines >* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction >* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips > > The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and > power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later > stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip. > > At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an > emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture). > > > How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, > manufacture and distribute the real thing. > > We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a > "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions > and/or robotics research? > > Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? > > > For the fun of it, here is a sample session: > >$ make mcu && vvp -M. -mtty mcu # Build and start Verilog engine >: > >$ make emu && ./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator >: > > Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The > database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the > normal, full DB functionality > >: (show *DB) >{1} (7 . {17}) > T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146}) >-> {1} > > you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained > in external symbols: > >: (dir) >-> ("lib.l" "lib/") > >: (dir "lib") >-> ("btree.l" "db.l" "dbg.l" "misc.l" "pilog.l" "sq.l") > >: (in "lib/db.l" (read)) >-> (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1))) > >: (out "foo/bar/mumble.l" (prinl "Hello world")) >-> "Hello world" >: (in "foo/bar/mumble.l" (line)) >-> ("H" "e" "l" "l" "o" " " "w" "o" "r" "l" "d") > >: (dir "foo/bar") >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (cd "foo/bar") >-> "foo/bar/" >: (dir) >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (pwd) >-> "foo/bar/" > > Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root: > >: (scan) >"foo/bar/mumble.l" {172} >"lib.l" {2} >"lib/btree.l" {64} >"lib/db.l" {105} >"lib/dbg.l" {20} >"lib/misc.l" {56} >"lib/pilog.l" {146} >"lib/sq.l" {166} > > They point to external symbols, like {2} for "lib.l". > >(load '{2}) > > is equivalent to > >(load "lib.l") > > The values of these symbols hold the file size: > >: (show '{2}) >{2} 12401 >-> {2} > > They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly > in dynamically maintained DB blocks. > > The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :) > > ♪♫ Alex > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On September 19, 2014 at 3:05 PM Alexander Burger wrote: > Hi Alabhya, > > > Funds should flow in when "picoLisp OS" is seen running with all > > virtues, on existing hardware. > > Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware > project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard > OS. I read that as, "when PicoLisp" is seen running on _actual_ hardware. (Not currently existing.) Was I right Alabhya? best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Alexander Burger writes: Hi Alex (and George), > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) though not really a hardware/low-level guy, I think this sounds pretty exiting! > How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, > manufacture and distribute the real thing. I suggest to proceed in 2 steps: 1. make me a team member 2. repeat the {Microsoft|Apple}-Story ;-) > We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a > "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions > and/or robotics research? > > Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? I think I have VC-Companies and Robotics-Research-Faculties in my neighborhood, so once you have a business-idea based on PilMCU's USPs, I could try to make first contacts if that helps. Not sure what would be a realistic business idea, but maybe start by figuring out where the real money is nowadays (energy sector, automotive sector, mobile-phones etc) and then think about a possible niche to fill. Makes things much easier when potential clients drown in profits ;) If you find out e.g. how an "Embedded Lisp Machine" can be really useful for the car industry, we will all have PicoLisp jobs pretty soon! -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Alex - congratulations... It's really inspiring to see picoLisp keep improving and branching out. It really has staying power This might be off base, but is it within the realm of possibility to run PilMCU on a raspberry pi now or in the future? That's an accessible piece of hardware that many people already have (myself included). These people may also be willing to fund the work My pi has been sitting powered off largely since I bought it. This could reinvigorate it. On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Alexander Burger wrote: > Hi Alabhya, > > > Congratulations to both of you on this important feat! > > Thanks! > > > Funds should flow in when "picoLisp OS" is seen running with all > > virtues, on existing hardware. > > Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware > project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard > OS. > > ♪♫ Alex > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Hi Alabhya, > Congratulations to both of you on this important feat! Thanks! > Funds should flow in when "picoLisp OS" is seen running with all > virtues, on existing hardware. Hmm, but this is a bit against the point, isn't it? This *is* a hardware project. On existing hardware you may be served better with a standard OS. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Congratulations to both of you on this important feat! Funds should flow in when "picoLisp OS" is seen running with all virtues, on existing hardware. Looking for introductory level material on this to present to educational institutions, for them to realize value of this project.
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Fantastic, this is truly great. I have been hoping for years someone would pull this off. Congratulations. best regards, Jakob On September 19, 2014 at 1:39 PM Alexander Burger wrote: > Hello List, > > we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :) > > We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me. > Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and > extensions to PicoLisp. > > > PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A > truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the > operating system: > >* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack >* The built-in database is extended to hold a "file system" >* One SSD per database file for mass storage >* "Processes" run as tasks and coroutines >* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction >* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips > > The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and > power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later > stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip. > > At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an > emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture). > > > How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish, > manufacture and distribute the real thing. > > We imagine something in the line of an "Embedded Lisp Machine" or a > "Lisp Machine Kit". Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions > and/or robotics research? > > Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are? > > > For the fun of it, here is a sample session: > >$ make mcu && vvp -M. -mtty mcu # Build and start Verilog engine >: > >$ make emu && ./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator >: > > Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The > database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the > normal, full DB functionality > >: (show *DB) >{1} (7 . {17}) > T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146}) >-> {1} > > you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained > in external symbols: > >: (dir) >-> ("lib.l" "lib/") > >: (dir "lib") >-> ("btree.l" "db.l" "dbg.l" "misc.l" "pilog.l" "sq.l") > >: (in "lib/db.l" (read)) >-> (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1))) > >: (out "foo/bar/mumble.l" (prinl "Hello world")) >-> "Hello world" >: (in "foo/bar/mumble.l" (line)) >-> ("H" "e" "l" "l" "o" " " "w" "o" "r" "l" "d") > >: (dir "foo/bar") >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (cd "foo/bar") >-> "foo/bar/" >: (dir) >-> ("mumble.l") > >: (pwd) >-> "foo/bar/" > > Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root: > >: (scan) >"foo/bar/mumble.l" {172} >"lib.l" {2} >"lib/btree.l" {64} >"lib/db.l" {105} >"lib/dbg.l" {20} >"lib/misc.l" {56} >"lib/pilog.l" {146} >"lib/sq.l" {166} > > They point to external symbols, like {2} for "lib.l". > >(load '{2}) > > is equivalent to > >(load "lib.l") > > The values of these symbols hold the file size: > >: (show '{2}) >{2} 12401 >-> {2} > > They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly > in dynamically maintained DB blocks. > > The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :) > > ♪♫ Alex > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe