Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
At 02:32 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. The scenario is not entirely ridiculous, though the numbers are likely inflated over what they would actually be at current pricing. The cancellation fee is unlikely, but if it was clearly stated in the user agreement, accepted at installation, it might be legally enforceable. However, the scenario goes beyond what would be lawfully enforceable in today's world: Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. This would almost certainly be a violation of credit card company policy. In other words, the credit card companies would ignore it and would still honor a protest and chargeback if they determined the charge to be illegitimate. Having a little experience with chargebacks, I'd say that the credit card companies tend to give priority to customer claims; if the customer claim is reasonable on the face, they will give the charging company an opportunity to rebut; but they don't want to be courts, there is no money in it for them. The cardholder is their customer, they want to keep him or her happy; and if they don't honor a reasonable chargeback, their customer could, in fact, refuse to pay the bill and that, in itself, will create more headache than they want. (If you refuse to pay a charge on a credit card bill, they *must* follow a procedure prescribed by law; if they don't, not only will you not be required to pay the charge, they will be assessed penalties which, if there is still a balance, you can deduct from the balance. I ended up in a dispute with Capital One over some overlimit and interest charges they had assessed because they failed to credit an account timely with a payment; fortunately, I had sent the payment return receipt requested, so I knew when they had received it. It did take a few months and a few layers of management, but they ended up crediting me with the whole shebang, reversing their charges and in addition, the penalty prescribed by law.) So Microsoft would have to go to court to collect. They might succeed if the user contract was reasonable, i.e., there was a discount given at time of purchase which could be recaptured if a customer did not complete a contract period, but a contract that locks in a customer to payments over, basically, the rest of their life would probably not be enforceable under the statute of frauds (which makes contracts to be performed over a period longer than one year unenforceable unless they are in writing). And Microsoft would definitely not want to be seen in court with customers over a matter like this! It's easy to cancel a credit card! Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Well, some aspects are possible, but quite unlikely. Such practices would have to be clear in the user agreement, and, if as extensive as was described, would also have to be in writing; even then they could be cancelled (stringent contracts written by the seller to the buyers detriment might not be enforceable even if the buyer has signed). And as soon as it was widely realized that a user agreement contained such provisions, their sales would go to close to zero. Files can't report being opened (unless they are executable), rather an operating system could make such a report that the file was opened. And this would be a tad difficult if the network was unplugged. And I think it would be a bit difficult to
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) You are not alone. As I have said before on this list, W2K and Office 2000 are the last Microsoft products I will be buying unless they scrap their new licensing policies and cut the prices. Likewise with future Protel versions; 99SE will be it. It's a shame, because in many ways W2K and Protel 99SE are excellent products. Further improvements on them would be a wonderful thing, but the new licensing and pricing is a killer. You can not only work with your checkbook, you can also evangelize others about the issues at stake. I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 4499897D6A9FF5499E903EFFE072FF71D3F4650C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
Hahahahaha I love this guy ;-) -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 03 August 2002 19:32 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) You are not alone. As I have said before on this list, W2K and Office 2000 are the last Microsoft products I will be buying unless they scrap their new licensing policies and cut the prices. Likewise with future Protel versions; 99SE will be it. It's a shame, because in many ways W2K and Protel 99SE are excellent products. Further improvements on them would be a wonderful thing, but the new licensing and pricing is a killer. You can not only work with your checkbook, you can also evangelize others about the issues at stake. I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 4499897D6A9FF5499E903EFFE072FF71D3F4650C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
easy Ivan... micro-junk may be reading this and you just laid out the ground work for them!!! it was hella funny, despite the possibility of it happening for real! ~Joel - Original Message - From: Rich Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Hahahahaha I love this guy ;-) -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 03 August 2002 19:32 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) You are not alone. As I have said before on this list, W2K and Office 2000 are the last Microsoft products I will be buying unless they scrap their new licensing policies and cut the prices. Likewise with future Protel versions; 99SE will be it. It's a shame, because in many ways W2K and Protel 99SE are excellent products. Further improvements on them would be a wonderful thing, but the new licensing and pricing is a killer. You can not only work with your checkbook, you can also evangelize others about the issues at stake. I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 4499897D6A9FF5499E903EFFE072FF71D3F4650C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
LOL, so true. --- Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) You are not alone. As I have said before on this list, W2K and Office 2000 are the last Microsoft products I will be buying unless they scrap their new licensing policies and cut the prices. Likewise with future Protel versions; 99SE will be it. It's a shame, because in many ways W2K and Protel 99SE are excellent products. Further improvements on them would be a wonderful thing, but the new licensing and pricing is a killer. You can not only work with your checkbook, you can also evangelize others about the issues at stake. I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 4499897D6A9FF5499E903EFFE072FF71D3F4650C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com * Tracking #: FB78D57C5135DA45BFC322A21CF18FBA30256E54 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
i think the time use model is a future certainty, UCITA already allows remote disabling of users software more or less at the vendor's will UCITA may allow it, but my buying policy does not allow it. If I buy a copy of software I should be able to use it as long as I want to. If a software company wants to lease (rent) software, they should explicitly call it by such standard commerce terms as lease or rent, and those terms should be used in the advertising literature Protel DXP, the EDA platform of the future, is here now! Lease your copy today!. Then, maybe I can make an informed decision as to whether or not to lease (rent) it. Otherwise, I am going to regard it as a time-unlimited use purchase, no matter what phony-baloney pseudo-legalese is in the EULA. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer well, all that notwithstanding there are official numbers on such matters inflation index, consumer price index, and others they are all VERY low for many many years now (knock on wood), on the order a few percent remember the jimmy carter years? software has yet to find it's real price model, it will take quite a while as the value portion is ephemeral another relevant issue here is that pcb designers are not exactly an exploding market, there only needs to be so many of us and most everybody already has some software i think the time use model is a future certainty, UCITA already allows remote disabling of users software more or less at the vendor's will http://www.matrixlist.com/pipermail/leaplist/2000-March/003758.html solidworks has a pretty strong maintenance program, they guarantee something like 5 service packs a year which include enhancements as well as bug fixes they also allow stepping back so that a new SP which introduces new 'issues' (love that word) can be easily rolled back to the prior one if you let the maintenance ($1500/yr) expire then for a 100 bucks penalty (plus of course the $1500) you can reinstate the remaining portion of the year or for a $500 penalty you can reset the yearly clock they've got their revenue stream wired and (or is BUT ?? ) they have a great product this is all done through networks of local dealers who have people who actually know stuff and sell training i don't know if the dealers or anyone makes any real money at any of this but it seems that they might i think what protel really ought to do (seriously now) is open up a little service bureau and put one their people in it so that they can deal with and learn all of the real world requirements first hand Dennis Saputelli * Tracking #: A64420D5930AE34D9F358636A3B0516132E151F2 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
The personal electronics industry is a freak among industries. You must agree with that? Well, it's a BIG freak, then. So big that it is regarded as the norm by anyone not in the industry. Even in your example lies cable modem service that has gone up and up. Tell me why? They say it's because it reflects the value of our service.' BS, it's because DSL went up and cable can go up to because there is no reason to hold it down. Area-specific example. It's not that way in Tallahassee, Florida (not yet anyway). I have been thinking of disconnecting my cable modem ($40/mo.) at home anyway. I probably will keep it until Comcast's first price hike. Then it's gone. One of my employees just got rid of their digital cable TV, they decided it was too expensive for what they were getting. I would discontinue my home phone if I didn't need it for security system monitoring - my cell phone plan makes land lines obsolete. How about gasoline? In California, they told us a few years ago the gas price was going to climb because of the expense of processing in the MTBE additive. Now they find out MTBE sucks, and it's going to cost more again to take it out! Why can't they just make the old gas, and give us the old pre-MTBE price? Because the market will bear it and the gov't won't step in to pull back the reigns. Another area-specific example. I cannot formulate my worldview based on what happens in California. One of my California-based customers says California is the land of fruits and nuts ;-) Of course, you guys probably thought us Floridians were crazy in the election 2000 fiasco... You see no excuse, but capitalism allows it to happen. Maybe if Castro was running the EDA s/w industry we'll all be using expresspcb and liking it. That was NOT nice. I don't appreciate having my opinions being associated with a Communist. I am a good Capitalist, I just don't bow before the idols of Wall Street, that's all. Remember, money is NOT the rool of all evil, but the LOVE of money IS the root of all evil. And there is much *love* on Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue these days... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 00DD89E4140ADE48A8D44243B9A6BB38A291DAF2 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
-Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:43 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer The personal electronics industry is a freak among industries. You must agree with that? Well, it's a BIG freak, then. So big that it is regarded as the norm by anyone not in the industry. Not in terms of US GNP or most other countries' GNP. Housing, fuel, transportation, clothing, food, those are huge. People spend huge amounts of money on those things in comparison to electronics. How many computers are in Africa, or South America? (or everywhere else for that matter) Now how many of those people need food, shelter, clothing? All of 'em. Even in your example lies cable modem service that has gone up and up. Tell me why? They say it's because it reflects the value of our service.' BS, it's because DSL went up and cable can go up to because there is no reason to hold it down. Area-specific example. It's not that way in Tallahassee, Florida (not yet anyway). I have been thinking of disconnecting my cable modem ($40/mo.) at home anyway. I probably will keep it until Comcast's first price hike. Then it's gone. One of my employees just got rid of their digital cable TV, they decided it was too expensive for what they were getting. I would discontinue my home phone if I didn't need it for security system monitoring - my cell phone plan makes land lines obsolete. Sure it's area specific, but I think it's a trend. Corporate mergers make entities closer and closer to monopolies and monopolies usually generate price increases. I think the ATT breakup wasn't a good thing. Even if prices are high, often times good service comes with it. Now prices in telecom are lower, but services suck. How about gasoline? In California, they told us a few years ago the gas price was going to climb because of the expense of processing in the MTBE additive. Now they find out MTBE sucks, and it's going to cost more again to take it out! Why can't they just make the old gas, and give us the old pre-MTBE price? Because the market will bear it and the gov't won't step in to pull back the reigns. Another area-specific example. I cannot formulate my worldview based on what happens in California. One of my California-based customers says California is the land of fruits and nuts ;-) Of course, you guys probably thought us Floridians were crazy in the election 2000 fiasco... Oh yeah, world view...price of gas in Europe today?? It's still on the rise... Gas in Hawaii: cheaper than California and the HAVE to bring it in by ship! We have a frickin' refinery 10 miles away and I pay more for gas than just about anyone in the USA because I 'can afford it.' BS! You see no excuse, but capitalism allows it to happen. Maybe if Castro was running the EDA s/w industry we'll all be using expresspcb and liking it. That was NOT nice. I don't appreciate having my opinions being associated with a Communist. I am a good Capitalist, I just don't bow before the idols of Wall Street, that's all. Remember, money is NOT the rool of all evil, but the LOVE of money IS the root of all evil. And there is much *love* on Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue these days... Ivan, I didn't mean to associate you with anything Communist any more than you related me to a fruit or nut ;) I didn't take your CA comment personally..I would hope you don't take mine to heart either. My comment just meant that unless some power is forcing s/w companies to lower their prices, they will charge whatever the market will bear. So I rolled it down to a strong gov't power (like Castro) enforcing the people to use one low-end tool for one low-end price. It had nothing to do with you! :) Best regards, Tony Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 00DD89E4140ADE48A8D44243B9A6BB38A291DAF2 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:35:44 -0700, Tony Karavidas wrote: ..snip... Sure it's area specific, but I think it's a trend. Corporate mergers make entities closer and closer to monopolies and monopolies usually generate price increases. I think the ATT breakup wasn't a good thing. Even if prices are high, often times good service comes with it. Now prices in telecom are lower, but services suck. The only telecom services that suck around here are local service and that's because it's run by a Baby Bell (SBC), who still basically has a monopoly and runs their business that way. Prices up, service down. Complaining to the state Public Utility Commission is worthless, since their board members are all old ex-telecom (i.e. SBC) guys! My Sprint PCS cell phone service is wonderful. They have every option I could want, keep dropping their prices while adding more services. SBC sure isn't doing that! ..snip... Oh yeah, world view...price of gas in Europe today?? It's still on the rise... The cost to refine gasoline is virtually constant worldwide -- any price differences you see are predominantly TAXES and to a lesser extent transportation costs. Gas in Hawaii: cheaper than California and the HAVE to bring it in by ship! We have a frickin' refinery 10 miles away and I pay more for gas than just about anyone in the USA because I 'can afford it.' BS! I suggest you check into your state gas taxes -- I think you'll find the answer there. As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) Matt Pobursky Maximum Performance Systems * Tracking #: C9E0E04C02F2EA43A4A1F8F01953272268A8D596 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
Yes, Rene, by definition, everything decided is a decision... However, some decisions are worse than others. This morning I decided whether to eat a bagel and grapefruit juice at home, or get a McDonald's biscuit and orange juice on the way to the office. I chose the McD biscuit. That was an OK decision. But if this morning I had decided to rob a bank instead of go to work at the office, that would have been a bad decision. I can imagine the excuses that Andersen, Enron, and Worldcom executives may be giving for their actions it was an executive decision. Well, duh, they were executives and they made decisions. VERY BAD ONES! I won't be basing my beliefs on what is fair by what Microsoft (or Altium) do. If I started operating my business that way, I would be out of business quickly (Thank you for your order. Oh, did I mention that your price just went up 100%? That's because we came out with Rev C of the board and you never bought any Rev B boards, just Rev A's. If you had bought some Rev B's, you new price for Rev C's would be only 50% higher.). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Isn't it the other way round ? Having bought the last version you're regarded as 'good' customer and get a higher discount than another one that bought something 10 years back ? Anyway, it is a decision. Microsoft decided in the case of office software that there are those who have a service agreement ($$$) and all the others are new customers that always pay the full price. There is no obligation to offer a discount, really. Rene Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: I wonder if the software can tell, during installation, which version you actually had and refuse to install if it's not the upgrade jump you paid for? IMO, I think it's a shady business practice to charge someone more for an upgrade just because they skipped a version. That's the same as forcing them to buy something they didn't want. They didn't get the use of those intermediate versions, so why should they pay for them? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer My distributor told me yesterday, that ATS was additional to the usual upgradeability. Meaning you can get DXP whenever you want. The price increases with the number of versions you're behind. Same as when you now upgrade a 2.8 to 99SE, which is more expensive than a 98 to a 99SE. Together with DXP you get ATS, whatever this for a year and you don't have to extend it when it expires. * Tracking #: CB2E41F6A57DBD46BF59EE97520A200D9FD607FC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
the lurkers should be having a fit over the last couple of weeks threads... glad i don't have to attend any of those meetings!!! not to mention having to try to keep a straight face and convince someone that it's in their best interest to buy into the altium way of business... ..see we will get your money no matter what. if you want you can give it to us every year, starting the year of your initial purchase. or we will kindly give you the option of allowing you to earn interest on the money you don't give us every year and you can then give us interest and principle when you choose! if you think about it... it's a win, win situation. either way we win!!! woo ha ha ha ha ! anyone want to buy a bridge. drop me an line... i'll give you a h*ll of a deal! - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Yes, Rene, by definition, everything decided is a decision... However, some decisions are worse than others. This morning I decided whether to eat a bagel and grapefruit juice at home, or get a McDonald's biscuit and orange juice on the way to the office. I chose the McD biscuit. That was an OK decision. But if this morning I had decided to rob a bank instead of go to work at the office, that would have been a bad decision. I can imagine the excuses that Andersen, Enron, and Worldcom executives may be giving for their actions it was an executive decision. Well, duh, they were executives and they made decisions. VERY BAD ONES! I won't be basing my beliefs on what is fair by what Microsoft (or Altium) do. If I started operating my business that way, I would be out of business quickly (Thank you for your order. Oh, did I mention that your price just went up 100%? That's because we came out with Rev C of the board and you never bought any Rev B boards, just Rev A's. If you had bought some Rev B's, you new price for Rev C's would be only 50% higher.). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Isn't it the other way round ? Having bought the last version you're regarded as 'good' customer and get a higher discount than another one that bought something 10 years back ? Anyway, it is a decision. Microsoft decided in the case of office software that there are those who have a service agreement ($$$) and all the others are new customers that always pay the full price. There is no obligation to offer a discount, really. Rene Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: I wonder if the software can tell, during installation, which version you actually had and refuse to install if it's not the upgrade jump you paid for? IMO, I think it's a shady business practice to charge someone more for an upgrade just because they skipped a version. That's the same as forcing them to buy something they didn't want. They didn't get the use of those intermediate versions, so why should they pay for them? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer My distributor told me yesterday, that ATS was additional to the usual upgradeability. Meaning you can get DXP whenever you want. The price increases with the number of versions you're behind. Same as when you now upgrade a 2.8 to 99SE, which is more expensive than a 98 to a 99SE. Together with DXP you get ATS, whatever this for a year and you don't have to extend it when it expires. * Tracking #: CB2E41F6A57DBD46BF59EE97520A200D9FD607FC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up? Everything has gone up, milk, eggs, gas, cars, etc. -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:23 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Yes, Rene, by definition, everything decided is a decision... However, some decisions are worse than others. This morning I decided whether to eat a bagel and grapefruit juice at home, or get a McDonald's biscuit and orange juice on the way to the office. I chose the McD biscuit. That was an OK decision. But if this morning I had decided to rob a bank instead of go to work at the office, that would have been a bad decision. I can imagine the excuses that Andersen, Enron, and Worldcom executives may be giving for their actions it was an executive decision. Well, duh, they were executives and they made decisions. VERY BAD ONES! I won't be basing my beliefs on what is fair by what Microsoft (or Altium) do. If I started operating my business that way, I would be out of business quickly (Thank you for your order. Oh, did I mention that your price just went up 100%? That's because we came out with Rev C of the board and you never bought any Rev B boards, just Rev A's. If you had bought some Rev B's, you new price for Rev C's would be only 50% higher.). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Isn't it the other way round ? Having bought the last version you're regarded as 'good' customer and get a higher discount than another one that bought something 10 years back ? Anyway, it is a decision. Microsoft decided in the case of office software that there are those who have a service agreement ($$$) and all the others are new customers that always pay the full price. There is no obligation to offer a discount, really. Rene Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: I wonder if the software can tell, during installation, which version you actually had and refuse to install if it's not the upgrade jump you paid for? IMO, I think it's a shady business practice to charge someone more for an upgrade just because they skipped a version. That's the same as forcing them to buy something they didn't want. They didn't get the use of those intermediate versions, so why should they pay for them? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer My distributor told me yesterday, that ATS was additional to the usual upgradeability. Meaning you can get DXP whenever you want. The price increases with the number of versions you're behind. Same as when you now upgrade a 2.8 to 99SE, which is more expensive than a 98 to a 99SE. Together with DXP you get ATS, whatever this for a year and you don't have to extend it when it expires. * Tracking #: CB2E41F6A57DBD46BF59EE97520A200D9FD607FC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
No, not everything has gone up. I am surprised that you would make this claim, being in the electronics industry. Here are some things that have gone down: Long distance rates Cellphone rates TVs (get a good one for $300 US, they used to be a lot more) All kinds of personal electronics Computers I have somewhat increased what I charge for consulting services over the years. But I am not able to increase what I charge for hardware due to market forces. Other than hiring more programmers or giving them a raise, I see no excuse for software prices going up. Code can be (and is) re-used from one version to the next, so that RD is already paid for. What the increases are really for is to support the increased inefficiency of the corporate machine. Yes, you are less efficient (in terms of work output / dollars input) if you get paid more for doing the same thing. So, I have become slightly less efficient in the past 10 years ;-) But not to the extent that Big Corp. does. They have big CEOs, big marketing depts, big stockholders to pay big bucks to. But the output isn't scaling with the $$$ input. So they are becoming less efficient. Increasing software prices vs. decreasing customer acceptance of paying those prices. This is another classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It will be interesting to see what happens. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up? Everything has gone up, milk, eggs, gas, cars, etc. * Tracking #: DF1752DB3F408D41961F4515E9A83AB044E225E9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
You have forgotten what EDA software used to cost! In the early days of Daisy, Mentor, Valid you would have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars just for schematic capture! The PCB layout tools cost $100k+. This was before PC's came along. In the IC industry, they have to pay $100k-1m+ for a single software seat! I think PCB is doing pretty well compared to that. If you look at Altium's financials, they are not outrageous. And they are helping many more people to pay their mortgage bills than I suspect your company does. Your other examples have a major difference - they are all very high volume products and services. There are probably around 200-300k hardware engineers in the world, yet there are millions of consumers for the examples you give. (and all of those associated companies pay just as fat salaries and even more for marketing/advertizing). Economies of scale permit them to reduce prices combined with market forces (competition). Software prices will only go up if the market will bear it - supply demand, economics 101. Sorry - but your arguments seem hypocritical to me. You pretty much hinted, that if you could charge more you would (but alas market forces don't permit). --- Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, not everything has gone up. I am surprised that you would make this claim, being in the electronics industry. Here are some things that have gone down: Long distance rates Cellphone rates TVs (get a good one for $300 US, they used to be a lot more) All kinds of personal electronics Computers I have somewhat increased what I charge for consulting services over the years. But I am not able to increase what I charge for hardware due to market forces. Other than hiring more programmers or giving them a raise, I see no excuse for software prices going up. Code can be (and is) re-used from one version to the next, so that RD is already paid for. What the increases are really for is to support the increased inefficiency of the corporate machine. Yes, you are less efficient (in terms of work output / dollars input) if you get paid more for doing the same thing. So, I have become slightly less efficient in the past 10 years ;-) But not to the extent that Big Corp. does. They have big CEOs, big marketing depts, big stockholders to pay big bucks to. But the output isn't scaling with the $$$ input. So they are becoming less efficient. Increasing software prices vs. decreasing customer acceptance of paying those prices. This is another classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It will be interesting to see what happens. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up? Everything has gone up, milk, eggs, gas, cars, etc. * Tracking #: DF1752DB3F408D41961F4515E9A83AB044E225E9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com * Tracking #: A3CD4B6186B3DC41A1CAC1D76E4E8E82A95AECB1 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
You have forgotten what EDA software used to cost! In the early days of Daisy, Mentor, Valid you would have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars just for schematic capture! The PCB layout tools cost $100k+. This was before PC's came along. In the IC industry, they have to pay $100k-1m+ for a single software seat! I think PCB is doing pretty well compared to that. If you look at Altium's financials, they are not outrageous. And they are helping many more people to pay their mortgage bills than I suspect your company does. Your other examples have a major difference - they are all very high volume products and services. There are probably around 200-300k hardware engineers in the world, yet there are millions of consumers for the examples you give. (and all of those associated companies pay just as fat salaries and even more for marketing/advertizing). Economies of scale permit them to reduce prices combined with market forces (competition). Software prices will only go up if the market will bear it - supply demand, economics 101. Sorry - but your arguments seem hypocritical to me. You pretty much hinted, that if you could charge more you would (but alas market forces don't permit). --- Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, not everything has gone up. I am surprised that you would make this claim, being in the electronics industry. Here are some things that have gone down: Long distance rates Cellphone rates TVs (get a good one for $300 US, they used to be a lot more) All kinds of personal electronics Computers I have somewhat increased what I charge for consulting services over the years. But I am not able to increase what I charge for hardware due to market forces. Other than hiring more programmers or giving them a raise, I see no excuse for software prices going up. Code can be (and is) re-used from one version to the next, so that RD is already paid for. What the increases are really for is to support the increased inefficiency of the corporate machine. Yes, you are less efficient (in terms of work output / dollars input) if you get paid more for doing the same thing. So, I have become slightly less efficient in the past 10 years ;-) But not to the extent that Big Corp. does. They have big CEOs, big marketing depts, big stockholders to pay big bucks to. But the output isn't scaling with the $$$ input. So they are becoming less efficient. Increasing software prices vs. decreasing customer acceptance of paying those prices. This is another classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It will be interesting to see what happens. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up? Everything has gone up, milk, eggs, gas, cars, etc. * Tracking #: DF1752DB3F408D41961F4515E9A83AB044E225E9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com * Tracking #: B9C6C8D282D60C4AA50F95563260E914DA61A1AD * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
The personal electronics industry is a freak among industries. You must agree with that? Even in your example lies cable modem service that has gone up and up. Tell me why? They say it's because it reflects the value of our service.' BS, it's because DSL went up and cable can go up to because there is no reason to hold it down. How about gasoline? In California, they told us a few years ago the gas price was going to climb because of the expense of processing in the MTBE additive. Now they find out MTBE sucks, and it's going to cost more again to take it out! Why can't they just make the old gas, and give us the old pre-MTBE price? Because the market will bear it and the gov't won't step in to pull back the reigns. You see no excuse, but capitalism allows it to happen. Maybe if Castro was running the EDA s/w industry we'll all be using expresspcb and liking it. -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:34 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer No, not everything has gone up. I am surprised that you would make this claim, being in the electronics industry. Here are some things that have gone down: Long distance rates Cellphone rates TVs (get a good one for $300 US, they used to be a lot more) All kinds of personal electronics Computers I have somewhat increased what I charge for consulting services over the years. But I am not able to increase what I charge for hardware due to market forces. Other than hiring more programmers or giving them a raise, I see no excuse for software prices going up. Code can be (and is) re-used from one version to the next, so that RD is already paid for. What the increases are really for is to support the increased inefficiency of the corporate machine. Yes, you are less efficient (in terms of work output / dollars input) if you get paid more for doing the same thing. So, I have become slightly less efficient in the past 10 years ;-) But not to the extent that Big Corp. does. They have big CEOs, big marketing depts, big stockholders to pay big bucks to. But the output isn't scaling with the $$$ input. So they are becoming less efficient. Increasing software prices vs. decreasing customer acceptance of paying those prices. This is another classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It will be interesting to see what happens. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up? Everything has gone up, milk, eggs, gas, cars, etc. * Tracking #: DF1752DB3F408D41961F4515E9A83AB044E225E9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
well, all that notwithstanding there are official numbers on such matters inflation index, consumer price index, and others they are all VERY low for many many years now (knock on wood), on the order a few percent remember the jimmy carter years? software has yet to find it's real price model, it will take quite a while as the value portion is ephemeral another relevant issue here is that pcb designers are not exactly an exploding market, there only needs to be so many of us and most everybody already has some software i think the time use model is a future certainty, UCITA already allows remote disabling of users software more or less at the vendor's will http://www.matrixlist.com/pipermail/leaplist/2000-March/003758.html solidworks has a pretty strong maintenance program, they guarantee something like 5 service packs a year which include enhancements as well as bug fixes they also allow stepping back so that a new SP which introduces new 'issues' (love that word) can be easily rolled back to the prior one if you let the maintenance ($1500/yr) expire then for a 100 bucks penalty (plus of course the $1500) you can reinstate the remaining portion of the year or for a $500 penalty you can reset the yearly clock they've got their revenue stream wired and (or is BUT ?? ) they have a great product this is all done through networks of local dealers who have people who actually know stuff and sell training i don't know if the dealers or anyone makes any real money at any of this but it seems that they might i think what protel really ought to do (seriously now) is open up a little service bureau and put one their people in it so that they can deal with and learn all of the real world requirements first hand Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: The personal electronics industry is a freak among industries. You must agree with that? Even in your example lies cable modem service that has gone up and up. Tell me why? They say it's because it reflects the value of our service.' BS, it's because DSL went up and cable can go up to because there is no reason to hold it down. How about gasoline? In California, they told us a few years ago the gas price was going to climb because of the expense of processing in the MTBE additive. Now they find out MTBE sucks, and it's going to cost more again to take it out! Why can't they just make the old gas, and give us the old pre-MTBE price? Because the market will bear it and the gov't won't step in to pull back the reigns. You see no excuse, but capitalism allows it to happen. Maybe if Castro was running the EDA s/w industry we'll all be using expresspcb and liking it. -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:34 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer No, not everything has gone up. I am surprised that you would make this claim, being in the electronics industry. Here are some things that have gone down: Long distance rates Cellphone rates TVs (get a good one for $300 US, they used to be a lot more) All kinds of personal electronics Computers I have somewhat increased what I charge for consulting services over the years. But I am not able to increase what I charge for hardware due to market forces. Other than hiring more programmers or giving them a raise, I see no excuse for software prices going up. Code can be (and is) re-used from one version to the next, so that RD is already paid for. What the increases are really for is to support the increased inefficiency of the corporate machine. Yes, you are less efficient (in terms of work output / dollars input) if you get paid more for doing the same thing. So, I have become slightly less efficient in the past 10 years ;-) But not to the extent that Big Corp. does. They have big CEOs, big marketing depts, big stockholders to pay big bucks to. But the output isn't scaling with the $$$ input. So they are becoming less efficient. Increasing software prices vs. decreasing customer acceptance of paying those prices. This is another classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It will be interesting to see what happens. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Ivan, do you mean to say your prices haven't gone up in the past (pick time frame)?? I know I charge more today for basically the same work that I did 3 or 4 years ago. Why is everyone so shocked that Protel's price went up?
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
the early days of Daisy, Mentor, Valid you would have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars just for schematic capture! The PCB layout tools cost $100k+. This was before PC's came along. In the IC industry, they have to pay $100k-1m+ for a single software seat! I think PCB is doing pretty well compared to that. Well not quite true yes Some schematics tools cost 100K in the early days, and one in particular cost $500 US. The first time I saw orcad on a pirated version, my jaw dropped. $500 I couldn't believe it! Orcad went on to capture 70 % of the entire Schmatic market with a product that now sells for 1500. and can still compete with any program out there Mike Reagan EDSI * Tracking #: 2A0C60D9AB04D1458ECF8A9F26EC02272586EFD3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
