subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Legolas\!"

Thing is, we know Riv offers customs and that they will make you want you 
want, within their guidelines, which of course would likely include any 
bike similar, if not identical, to one of their past models. The regular 
$4,000 full customs include fancy Joe Bell paint, so really all we have 
been talking about are Riv customs with cheaper D paint. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Maybe the reason Rivendell never drew attention to the fact that you can 
order some retired models is that few if any customers had ever asked 
before now, much less actually ordered one. 

As for letting "the market decide," I assume that if, say, the Legolas had 
been a huge money maker, they would have kept it in the line-up. Even now 
that we know about the possibility, how many of us here are going to pull 
the trigger on one of these $3,000 semi-customs? Enough to make a real 
difference to Rivendell's yearly profit? 

Regarding the price difference, I was told that Grant's design fee doesn't 
figure in. 

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 8:16:32 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> I think that there’s middle ground to be had here. 
>
> If Riv can find a builder that will make a frame that people are willing 
> to pay for, and provide them with some profit (enough to make it worth it), 
> then this is a win-win. My understanding is that already-designed frames 
> with blueprints are simply waiting on a (quality) frame builder who has the 
> bandwidth to make them. The “market” will decide if it’s worth it. 
>
> If I decided that I wanted a new Legolas (or whatever the new name would 
> be), I assume the price would be somewhere between a Rodeo and a custom. It 
> should not cost as much as a custom because the design was done long ago. 
> It’s a matter of picking a size and colors. 
>
> I’d call Riv, ask them to pick up the phone,  

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread tc

...pick up the phone, order a Legolas in size 62, color xyz, and it’d be ready 
in maybe 9 months. I’d get a cool bike, and Riv would make a profit. They could 
use that profit to run their business. 

What is not realistic about that scenario?

Ford sells really cool Shelby Mustangs that cost out the wazoo. At the same 
time, they sell a gazillion F-150s with white paint, vinyl seats, and little 
base model steel wheels. They make a profit on both. They have customers for 
both, so they make both. 

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread tc

I think that there’s middle ground to be had here. 

If Riv can find a builder that will make a frame that people are willing to pay 
for, and provide them with some profit (enough to make it worth it), then this 
is a win-win. My understanding is that already-designed frames with blueprints 
are simply waiting on a (quality) frame builder who has the bandwidth to make 
them. The “market” will decide if it’s worth it. 

If I decided that I wanted a new Legolas (or whatever the new name would be), I 
assume the price would be somewhere between a Rodeo and a custom. It should not 
cost as much as a custom because the design was done long ago. It’s a matter of 
picking a size and colors.

I’d call Riv, ask them to pick up the phone,  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I am reminded of a story about Richard Sachs. Early in his career, he made 
a frame for a pro rider. The pro rider had very specific design requests 
that Sachs strongly disagreed with, but he made the frame anyway, because 
he thought that was the job. Of course, the bike rode badly and the rider 
was unhappy. Sachs decided from that point on that he would no longer make 
custom frames, he would make *bespoke* frames -- tailored to the rider's 
anatomy, but with a design he could stand behind. 

Maybe the no level top tube is a similar issue and Grant has a strong 
belief in sloped TT's. Maybe a level TT should be no big deal -- I like 
them -- but if you find yourself disagreeing with a frame designer on 
geometry, maybe he's just not the frame designer for you. At the end of the 
day, it's Grant's company's name on the bike and I assume he wants to feel 
100% good about everything that goes out the door. 

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 7:59:22 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "Odd: Didn't Grant way back in the day vocally hold out for level-top 
> tube, fistful of seapost design? I think I do recall that. Not that I care; 
> my 2 remaining rivs have a 3* or so slope."
>
> Yes on a fistful of post so you could ride a level-ish toptube frame big 
> enough to get the bars up, no on dead flat. Every Riv ever produced has at 
> least a modicum of rise from seattube to headtube and I'm not surprised 
> Grant wasn't going to be talked out of it. But I also doubt the story was 
> as simple as that request...
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Joe Bernard

"Odd: Didn't Grant way back in the day vocally hold out for level-top tube, 
fistful of seapost design? I think I do recall that. Not that I care; my 2 
remaining rivs have a 3* or so slope."

Yes on a fistful of post so you could ride a level-ish toptube frame big enough 
to get the bars up, no on dead flat. Every Riv ever produced has at least a 
modicum of rise from seattube to headtube and I'm not surprised Grant wasn't 
going to be talked out of it. But I also doubt the story was as simple as that 
request...

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Although I, too, wish I had known about all this earlier, I understand why 
Riv might not want to advertise it. I work at a small business -- not bike 
related -- and fairly often a customer will ask, "Why don't you still make 
such-and-such? When is it coming back?" I find this frustrating, because of 
course we have always made what we think is best. My job doesn't have me 
speaking to customers directly, but if I did, I would tell them, "That's 
great you liked the other thing, but we feel this new thing is actually 
better, and I wish you would give it a chance. We wouldn't have changed it 
if we didn't believe that." 

>From the very start of Rivendell, Grant Petersen's designs have continually 
evolved. I haven't always agreed with the changes -- like a lot of people 
here, I prefer shorter chain stays --- but I admire Grant for following his 
heart instead of market trends. He could have left the Atlantis alone, but 
I trust that he truly believes the longer chain stay version is better, or, 
at least, an experiment worth trying. He sounds super excited about the new 
bikes, the Gus, etc, and although I may not want one of those, I don't 
doubt for a second that he is designing the best bikes he can, within 
certain unavoidable financial constraints. 

To put it another way, the production frames are Rivendells's main source 
of money, the distillation of their current state of mind, really the whole 
reason for the company to exist, so I can see why they would want to put 
the spotlight there and not on past models. 

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 1:34:32 AM UTC-8, Roberta wrote:
>
> I wonder why they don't advertise that, but keep it a secret.  Perhaps put 
> at the bottom of their bike page, next to "Custom", "Previous production 
> frames."  Then send out an email blast.
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Bill Lindsay

I have several thoughts about people's complaints about the "hidden menu".  
Here's how I think about it, in the form of two parables, one made up, and 
one real.

Made up parable:

Imagine you owned a cheese shop.  Imagine you sell a particular goat 
cheese.  It's very good cheese and you have customers who like buying it 
and it's kind of a trademark for your business.  You call it "House 
Chevre".  As time passes, the supplier who sells you the cheese increases 
the prices steadily, and sometimes can't supply it at any price.  Your 
customers buy less because it is so expensive, but some are willing to 
order it.  Sometimes the supplier takes so long to deliver your orders that 
some of your customers lose patience and cancel.  It gets harder and harder 
to sell it.  Then, you find another vendor that has even better goat 
cheese.  It's flat out better (in your judgement), AND it's half the 
price.  The vendor is super reliable, so you have it on the shelf.  Some of 
your customers know there's been a change, and say "I want the old stuff, 
it was good"  You agree, it WAS good, but this is better and half the 
price.  Some of your customers insist.  Other customers of yours get 
annoyed that you've made it harder to buy the old overpriced cheese and 
complain about it on a forum.  It's true that "the customer is always 
right", but in the situation above, would you really keep selling the 
overpriced product from the unreliable vendor?  Or would you stick to your 
principles and continue to try to "push" the product that you sincerely 
believe is superior, and way cheaper?  You're kind of being a pompous jerk 
presuming you know more than your customers, but in reality, that's why you 
own the cheese shop.  

Real life parable:

In the late 1980's through early 1990's, Kona Coffee became super 
fashionable.  It was convincingly marketed as superior coffee.  It was 
super expensive, maybe $20-$25 a pound when other high-end coffees were 
$12-$15 a pound.  Very conspicuously, Peet's didn't sell Kona Coffee.  I 
knew (know) people in the upper levels of management in the Peet's 
organization, and those people made it clear to me why they didn't sell 
Kona Coffee: because it sucked.  It was objectively mediocre coffee.  Their 
customers demanded it, but Peet's didn't care.  They cared about curating 
the very best coffee in the world, (by their own judgement) and hoped 
enough people would appreciate their efforts enough to buy it.  They 
weren't going to "sell out" and supply a "just OK" product that was 
absurdly overpriced, despite what their customers claimed they wanted to 
buy.

I think Rivendell is trying to offer the best bikes they can at the best 
price to us.  I think they are doing things the way Peet's did things in 
the 1990s (Peet's has subsequently sold out on several levels, but that's 
another story).  I think Waterford is not a great supplier to Rivendell.  
I'm not surprised Rivendell is pulling away from the Waterford models.  I 
owned a 56cm Bombadil, which was a good bike.  My 56cm MIT Atlantis is a 
better bike in every possible way and costs less than half of what a new 
Bombadil would cost today.  I owned a 58cm 700c MUSA Atlantis.  It was a 
very good bike.  The combination of my Sam Hillborne and my 650B Atlantis 
are better. The off-menu bikes that Rivendell should offer (and does), is 
the ultra fancy step-throughs: Glorious and Wilbury.  The Roadeo is out 
there.  The cyclocross race bike just needs a name.  I think all we're left 
with is a $3000 Hunqapillar frame.  Who on this thread is dying to buy a 
$3000 Hunqapillar.  I would not trade my 650B MIT Atlantis for a 
Hunqapillar in my size.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 6:39:02 PM UTC-8, Kurt Henry wrote:
>
> Roberta, I'm with you.  I'm not sure I understand the "hidden menu".  I'm 
> sure Grant and company do it for a reason, but I don't know what it is.  My 
> guess about pushing frames in inventory vs. made to measure is pure 
> speculation and being curious out loud.  And I think you're right about 
> there being some groups of people that would be in the market for one set 
> of models and not the other.  Until recently I was firmly in the "not 
> really interested in long wheelbase" camp.  I think I'm starting to come 
> around, or at least around enough to be open minded about it.  
>
> I definitely appreciate your offer of a test ride! I haven't done a good 
> PBH measurement, but run a saddle height of ~75cm and am 5'10" (even if 
> that darn nurse at my checkup pegged me at 5' 9-3/4" a while back, I'm 
> claiming that extra quarter inch!!).  I suspect the sizing would be off by 
> a bit, though maybe you've let someone my size test ride before?
>
> Kurt Henry
> Lancaster, PA
>
> On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 7:42:20 PM UTC-5, Roberta wrote:
>>
>> Kurt,
>>
>> It seemed to me that if a business has something they are willing to sell 
>> (I assume at a good profit), they'd let

Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Benz, Sunnyvale, CA

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 11:06:09 AM UTC-8, James Valiensi wrote:
>
>
> Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of 
> mine wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the 
> sloping top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild 
> up-slope of 3-deg or so). They refused the order. 
> Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I 
> doubt it will happen. 
>

Rivendell/Grant had made it clear 
 that 
a custom Rivendell isn't "what the customer wants, whatever that is", but 
their interpretation of *their* style of bike, except made specifically to 
fit the customer's dimensions (with accoutrements like pump pegs, and other 
minor design features exempted). It makes sense, since part of what you're 
paying is your designer/builder's expertise to execute a particular design 
theme harmoniously, so trying to squeeze in design elements that run 
counter to the designer/builder's philosophy won't help things, and may in 
fact make things worse because you may be forcing the designer/builder to 
venture into territory that (s)he may not have expertise in.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Patrick Moore

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:06 PM James Valiensi 
wrote:

> Hi,
> Here is what I know.
> Rivendell was asked to stop using Tolkien names after the movies came out.
> The lawyers agreed that the name Rivendell could remain and they could use
> up the remainder of the Legolas stickers,
>

That's actually a pretty generous concession, at least compared to modern
corporate standards. I'm certainly glad that Rivendell was allowed to keep
calling itself Rivendell; somehow any other name just wouldn't work.

> ...
>

> Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of
> mine wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the
> sloping top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild
> up-slope of 3-deg or so). They refused the order.
> Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I
> doubt it will happen.
>

Odd: Didn't Grant way back in the day vocally hold out for level-top tube,
fistful of seapost design? I think I do recall that. Not that I care; my 2
remaining rivs have a 3* or so slope.

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Bill Lindsay

Kurt

As Joe correctly pointed out, Mark Abele is a very accomplish cyclocross 
racer, and the Legolas is 'Marks bike'.  It is still a Rivendell, no 
question, but It's definitely a race bike.  It's got a lower BB than some 
cross bikes, and it has a lot more flex and springiness than some of the 
ultra stiff carbon race bikes. I normally use it for familiar 1.5 - 2.5 
high intensity mixed terrain rides where I want to go hard.  I sometimes 
use it on road rides.  I intend to use it tomorrow morning for my 40 mile 
hilly road commute through the east bay hills.  That's why I put the BonJon 
Pass Extralights on.  The East Bay trails are too mucky this time of the 
year.  I'll post a ride report late tomorrow morning.  I definitely don't 
feel beat up after riding it.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 6:38:36 PM UTC-8, Kurt Henry wrote:
>
> Bill, I appreciate the offer of pictures!  It you're running knobby 38s 
> with a little breathing room, I suspect it would clear fenders around 
> enough tire for me.  More is better, but I don't want to sound greedy!
>
> Do you have any thoughts you can share on the ride?   I've read the 
> Legolas billed as a race frame, but have a hard time imaging Grant 
> designing a steep angled, high bottom bracket dedicated cross frame.  I've 
> ridden something along those lines and really didn't enjoy it.  The whole 
> thing of being so twitchy that it adjusted course every time I took a deep 
> breath or pushed up my glasses made it just exhausting to ride after a 
> bit.  If the Legolas is race-oriented by Riv standards, but still 
> comfortable enough to take out for a few hours without feeling beat up, 
> that sounds awesome.
>
> Kurt Henry
> Lancaster, PA
>
> On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 6:14:47 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Kurt 
>>
>> I am holding a recent Legolas. It’s got 38 knobbies on it now with nice 
>> clearance but not enough to include fenders. I’m likely going to put 35 
>> road tires on it tonight. I’ll take a couple clearance shots of that for 
>> you if I get around to it. 
>>
>> Bill Lindsay 
>> The Little Hill, Ca 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Joe Bernard

The trick is to imagine how Mark Abele designed his cross customs 15-20 years 
ago, then imagine Grant made a production model of it. This was the Rambouillet 
era, long before what most Rivs look like now. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch

Bill, I appreciate the offer of pictures!  It you're running knobby 38s 
with a little breathing room, I suspect it would clear fenders around 
enough tire for me.  More is better, but I don't want to sound greedy!

Do you have any thoughts you can share on the ride?   I've read the Legolas 
billed as a race frame, but have a hard time imaging Grant designing a 
steep angled, high bottom bracket dedicated cross frame.  I've ridden 
something along those lines and really didn't enjoy it.  The whole thing of 
being so twitchy that it adjusted course every time I took a deep breath or 
pushed up my glasses made it just exhausting to ride after a bit.  If the 
Legolas is race-oriented by Riv standards, but still comfortable enough to 
take out for a few hours without feeling beat up, that sounds awesome.

Kurt Henry
Lancaster, PA

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 6:14:47 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Kurt 
>
> I am holding a recent Legolas. It’s got 38 knobbies on it now with nice 
> clearance but not enough to include fenders. I’m likely going to put 35 
> road tires on it tonight. I’ll take a couple clearance shots of that for 
> you if I get around to it. 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> The Little Hill, Ca 
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch

Roberta, I'm with you.  I'm not sure I understand the "hidden menu".  I'm 
sure Grant and company do it for a reason, but I don't know what it is.  My 
guess about pushing frames in inventory vs. made to measure is pure 
speculation and being curious out loud.  And I think you're right about 
there being some groups of people that would be in the market for one set 
of models and not the other.  Until recently I was firmly in the "not 
really interested in long wheelbase" camp.  I think I'm starting to come 
around, or at least around enough to be open minded about it.  

I definitely appreciate your offer of a test ride! I haven't done a good 
PBH measurement, but run a saddle height of ~75cm and am 5'10" (even if 
that darn nurse at my checkup pegged me at 5' 9-3/4" a while back, I'm 
claiming that extra quarter inch!!).  I suspect the sizing would be off by 
a bit, though maybe you've let someone my size test ride before?

Kurt Henry
Lancaster, PA

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 7:42:20 PM UTC-5, Roberta wrote:
>
> Kurt,
>
> It seemed to me that if a business has something they are willing to sell 
> (I assume at a good profit), they'd let potential buyers know. (That is 
> just my unused marketing degree talking.  I don't mean to be armchair 
> quarterbacking of running their business.) I wonder how many who have read 
> this thread and now that they can put down money on their grail bike will 
> do it.  I'd also guess that some of the potential buyers who'd want a 
> previous model might be different buyers than those of the current models.  
> No company is immune from this, even the one I work for.  Some of our 
> customers buy items from other companies because they didn't know/we didn't 
> tell them that we ALSO sold them.
>
> I hadn't heard of Rivendell until only a few years ago.  I test rode a few 
> and they were all very nice.  Then, I got on the Joe Appaloosa and OMG  
> I purchased it right away.  I'm in Philadelphia and my Joe A. is 51 cm.  If 
> you are nearby, I'd be happy let you ride it or my 54.5 AHH or both.  I 
> rarely go west, but I could also meet you at Valley Forge or thereabouts.
>
> Roberta
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Roberta

Kurt,

It seemed to me that if a business has something they are willing to sell 
(I assume at a good profit), they'd let potential buyers know. (That is 
just my unused marketing degree talking.  I don't mean to be armchair 
quarterbacking of running their business.) I wonder how many who have read 
this thread and now that they can put down money on their grail bike will 
do it.  I'd also guess that some of the potential buyers who'd want a 
previous model might be different buyers than those of the current models.  
No company is immune from this, even the one I work for.  Some of our 
customers buy items from other companies because they didn't know/we didn't 
tell them that we ALSO sold them.

I hadn't heard of Rivendell until only a few years ago.  I test rode a few 
and they were all very nice.  Then, I got on the Joe Appaloosa and OMG  
I purchased it right away.  I'm in Philadelphia and my Joe A. is 51 cm.  If 
you are nearby, I'd be happy let you ride it or my 54.5 AHH or both.  I 
rarely go west, but I could also meet you at Valley Forge or thereabouts.

Roberta

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-5, Kurt Henry wrote:
>
> Roberta, I wonder if part of it is a desire on their part to clear the 
> inventory they have in house.  I think Grant has mentioned needing to pay 
> their suppliers up front for frame shipments, which is reasonable.  If they 
> have a bunch of Clems and Hillbornes in the back and are waiting to get 
> their money back when the frames sell, Riv would probably rather people 
> bought those than a semi-custom at less than custom rates.  Obviously a 
> semi-custom is better than spending nothing, for sure!  It seems like it 
> would be a tough line to walk for them.  Do they put the information about 
> the semi-customs out there, potentially pushing people on the fence toward 
> something that their custom builder has to make, or do they keep it kinda 
> quiet and hope those same people grab something off the shelf instead.
>
> That said, I'm on the fence about the new long wheelbase Atlantis after 
> seeing the MTB video posted recently.  I was previously turned off by the 
> long wheelbase.  Now I'm curious.  I'd like to test ride a long wheelbase 
> bike to see what it's like before throwing down money on one.  But a 
> Legolas?  I've posted in the not too distant past, I think on iBob, about 
> wanting a steel frame without disc brakes but enough clearance for 32+ 
> (emphasis on +) and fenders.  I think a Legolas would more than cover that 
> while being a bit racey, but I gather still not beyond what Grant would 
> design and not something that would wear you out after 30-40 miles.  Anyone 
> holding one care to comment on that part?  If that holds true, I gotta say 
> I'm getting an itchy trigger finger.
>
> Kurt Henry
> Lancaster, PA
>
> On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 4:34:32 AM UTC-5, Roberta wrote:
>>
>> I wonder why they don't advertise that, but keep it a secret.  Perhaps 
>> put at the bottom of their bike page, next to "Custom", "Previous 
>> production frames."  Then send out an email blast.
>>
>> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:50:00 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>>>
>>> In case anyone else here is interested, I asked Riv and you can indeed 
>>> still order a Legolas (without the name) in a standard size for less than 
>>> full custom price. It is also possible to order other retired frames, eg, 
>>> the Saluki. 
>>>
>>> On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 5:01:14 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:

 What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but 
 wow, they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  
 Is it simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order 
 at custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  
 Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?

 From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross 
 bikes.  So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake 
 when 
 it came out.  

 Tom

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread Bill Lindsay

Kurt 

I am holding a recent Legolas. It’s got 38 knobbies on it now with nice 
clearance but not enough to include fenders. I’m likely going to put 35 road 
tires on it tonight. I’ll take a couple clearance shots of that for you if I 
get around to it. 

Bill Lindsay 
The Little Hill, Ca

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch

Roberta, I wonder if part of it is a desire on their part to clear the 
inventory they have in house.  I think Grant has mentioned needing to pay 
their suppliers up front for frame shipments, which is reasonable.  If they 
have a bunch of Clems and Hillbornes in the back and are waiting to get 
their money back when the frames sell, Riv would probably rather people 
bought those than a semi-custom at less than custom rates.  Obviously a 
semi-custom is better than spending nothing, for sure!  It seems like it 
would be a tough line to walk for them.  Do they put the information about 
the semi-customs out there, potentially pushing people on the fence toward 
something that their custom builder has to make, or do they keep it kinda 
quiet and hope those same people grab something off the shelf instead.

That said, I'm on the fence about the new long wheelbase Atlantis after 
seeing the MTB video posted recently.  I was previously turned off by the 
long wheelbase.  Now I'm curious.  I'd like to test ride a long wheelbase 
bike to see what it's like before throwing down money on one.  But a 
Legolas?  I've posted in the not too distant past, I think on iBob, about 
wanting a steel frame without disc brakes but enough clearance for 32+ 
(emphasis on +) and fenders.  I think a Legolas would more than cover that 
while being a bit racey, but I gather still not beyond what Grant would 
design and not something that would wear you out after 30-40 miles.  Anyone 
holding one care to comment on that part?  If that holds true, I gotta say 
I'm getting an itchy trigger finger.

Kurt Henry
Lancaster, PA

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 4:34:32 AM UTC-5, Roberta wrote:
>
> I wonder why they don't advertise that, but keep it a secret.  Perhaps put 
> at the bottom of their bike page, next to "Custom", "Previous production 
> frames."  Then send out an email blast.
>
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:50:00 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>>
>> In case anyone else here is interested, I asked Riv and you can indeed 
>> still order a Legolas (without the name) in a standard size for less than 
>> full custom price. It is also possible to order other retired frames, eg, 
>> the Saluki. 
>>
>> On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 5:01:14 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>>>
>>> What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but 
>>> wow, they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  
>>> Is it simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order 
>>> at custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  
>>> Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?
>>>
>>> From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross 
>>> bikes.  So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake when 
>>> it came out.  
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-26 Thread James Valiensi

Hi,
Here is what I know.
Rivendell was asked to stop using Tolkien names after the movies came out. The 
lawyers agreed that the name Rivendell could remain and they could use up the 
remainder of the Legolas stickers, After that no more LOR references are 
allowed. So no more Legolas will be made. Grant doesn’t have a shortage of 
interesting and cool names for bikes anyways. Who names a bike Joe Appaloosa or 
Sam Hilborne???

Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of mine 
wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the sloping 
top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild up-slope of 
3-deg or so). They refused the order. 
Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I doubt it 
will happen. 

I have a few Rivendell’s - A custom road bike, a Joe Appaloosa and a 
Clementine. I’ve had a Heron many years ago, but sold it. They are all great 
fun.  I only sell bikes because of space, otherwise I would have 50 by now.

> On Jan 24, 2020, at 10:16 AM, Braxton Colagross  
> wrote:
> 
> You can probably order nearly anything you want and I'm sure Rivendell would 
> be happy to talk about specifics. Maybe some of the old production tubes no 
> longer exist so it wouldn't be *exactly* the same thing but the overall 
> design is theirs. A one-off is going to be more expensive than a stock 
> production frame made as part of a medium size order ten years ago. But if 
> cost is less important than getting exactly what you want... 
> 
> On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 3:58:54 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:
> I agree, Roberta. This is still confusing because I was told last year by a 
> Riv employee that I could no longer order a Hunq. So, a definitive list of 
> specific frames would help!
> Tom
> 
> 
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> .

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-25 Thread S

Yeah, that's odd. Maybe ask them about it? All the other parts seem 
reasonably priced.

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 8:37:01 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> I just went over to buy something I needed from Rivendell, inspired by 
> your post. 
> They want $42 for a UN55 bottom bracket. A bottom bracket with an MSRP of 
> $25 and a normal retail price between $15 and $20. 
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA 
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-25 Thread Philip Williamson

I just went over to buy something I needed from Rivendell, inspired by your 
post. 
They want $42 for a UN55 bottom bracket. A bottom bracket with an MSRP of $25 
and a normal retail price between $15 and $20. 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-25 Thread Jason Fuller

Building bikes designed to last a lifetime, like Rivendell does, is the 
right thing to do--but it's not what pays the bills best. I wonder if it 
wouldn't be in Riv's best interest to offer consignment used Rivendells / 
trade ins for new frames in order to get a portion of the proceeds from the 
sale of used Rivs - which basically sell themselves anyway! 


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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-24 Thread Karl

Thanks John and S! I certainly could have named the thread better (I know 
better next time!) my heart is warm for y’all. 

Karl
Still in Nash, TN

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-24 Thread S

Sorry for sidetracking this thread. Karl makes a good point. 

Although the occasional $1,500-$2,000 frame purchase seems like a lot, 
steady cash flow is actually what keeps businesses going. 

Starting now, I am going to commit to ordering at least a few things from 
Rivendell every month, instead of ordering from them every once in a while, 
as I have been doing. I almost always have a bike build on the go and need 
tubes, or a chain or cassette, etc. If you are on the west coast, shipping 
from Riv is fast and cheap, so there's no good reason to buy these kinds of 
things from anyplace else. 

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 6:45:50 AM UTC-8, Karl wrote:
>
> Now that I have your attention just kidding. I have had a thought 
> rolling around in my head for some time now, and Grant's latest blog post 
> about December has pushed me to act. I love all of y'all. I gave up social 
> media a couple of years ago (someone else does social media for me...wow! 
> it's amazing) as I seek to find more authentic interactions and friends in 
> this life. We are an amazing community. We celebrate when others have wins. 
> We mourn when others go through tough patches in life. We bless others when 
> we have too much. We also are brave enough to be on the receiving end of 
> those things when life throws us curves. This is what any community in the 
> world longs to be. Our "sun" if you would is the beautiful company sitting 
> outside downtown Walnut Creek who thousands pass every day and have no clue 
> of the world changing little company tucked in among all of the auto repair 
> shops. Rivendell and it's people are why we found each other. I am forever 
> grateful for that, and for each and every one of you. 
>
> I could go on, but that brings me to my proposal. I am just as guilty of 
> buying many things from others who have them for sale including bikes, 
> frames, and many other parts. What if we offered up a "thank you" every 
> time we made a transaction in our little community? Just on the honor 
> system, and just to say thank you for bringing us together. I am going to 
> begin buying Rivendell gift certificates in the amount of 10% of my sales 
> or purchases on the list that I will never use. Now, this will not be that 
> much on a normal basis, but as a small business owner, there are times when 
> an extra $100 per week helps tremendously. I believe even if we buy 
> something from Rivendell every time we buy and sell on our little list, we 
> could make a difference and also allow Grant, Vince, Corey, Will, Mark, and 
> all of those fine folks know how much they are appreciated, valued, and 
> loved. 
>
> Thank you for reading my little thoughts. I am grateful for all of you and 
> the way you bless and warm my life. 
>
> Karl
> Nash, TN
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-24 Thread John A. Bennett

Fantastic idea, Karl! 

Buying second, third, or fourth hand is a great way to conserve funds, but 
if we always *only* do that, well, eventuallyno more Rivendell, and no 
more Rivendells. 

In an early Rivendell catalog ---No. 4, I think  -- the brown one, in any 
case --- there was a great line, maybe a quote, that went (and I 
paraphrase) 

"Buy from the fine folks who told you about the merchandise is the first 
place." 

That's a very rough paraphrase/translation.but it still has meaning.  

Ponder the alternative for a guaranteed bummer. 

John in Portland, Ore. 





On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 6:45:50 AM UTC-8, Karl wrote:
>
> Now that I have your attention just kidding. I have had a thought 
> rolling around in my head for some time now, and Grant's latest blog post 
> about December has pushed me to act. I love all of y'all. I gave up social 
> media a couple of years ago (someone else does social media for me...wow! 
> it's amazing) as I seek to find more authentic interactions and friends in 
> this life. We are an amazing community. We celebrate when others have wins. 
> We mourn when others go through tough patches in life. We bless others when 
> we have too much. We also are brave enough to be on the receiving end of 
> those things when life throws us curves. This is what any community in the 
> world longs to be. Our "sun" if you would is the beautiful company sitting 
> outside downtown Walnut Creek who thousands pass every day and have no clue 
> of the world changing little company tucked in among all of the auto repair 
> shops. Rivendell and it's people are why we found each other. I am forever 
> grateful for that, and for each and every one of you. 
>
> I could go on, but that brings me to my proposal. I am just as guilty of 
> buying many things from others who have them for sale including bikes, 
> frames, and many other parts. What if we offered up a "thank you" every 
> time we made a transaction in our little community? Just on the honor 
> system, and just to say thank you for bringing us together. I am going to 
> begin buying Rivendell gift certificates in the amount of 10% of my sales 
> or purchases on the list that I will never use. Now, this will not be that 
> much on a normal basis, but as a small business owner, there are times when 
> an extra $100 per week helps tremendously. I believe even if we buy 
> something from Rivendell every time we buy and sell on our little list, we 
> could make a difference and also allow Grant, Vince, Corey, Will, Mark, and 
> all of those fine folks know how much they are appreciated, valued, and 
> loved. 
>
> Thank you for reading my little thoughts. I am grateful for all of you and 
> the way you bless and warm my life. 
>
> Karl
> Nash, TN
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread Joe Bernard

I absolutely agree with Tom on this. If the business has bikes to sell, they 
should be on the website with an Add To Cart button. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread tc

Thanks for the offer, Bill, but I’m good. Given Riv’s reply last year re: the 
Hunq, I started looking for a used one. Took a while to find one in good 
condition and sized right, but find one I did.  Joe Bell has had it in his 
paint queue for a couple of months. 

As for the Legolas, I was just curious.

And, as this thread has proven, there’s a lot of curiosity out there, and 
misinformation, about what can be ordered. The list of orderable bikes isn’t 
large — at least not so large that Riv couldn’t maintain such an accurate list 
on their web site. They are in business to sell bikes; hard to see why they 
wouldn’t make that as easy as possible. 

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread Braxton Colagross

You can probably order nearly anything you want and I'm sure Rivendell 
would be happy to talk about specifics. Maybe some of the old production 
tubes no longer exist so it wouldn't be *exactly* the same thing but the 
overall design is theirs. A one-off is going to be more expensive than a 
stock production frame made as part of a medium size order ten years ago. 
But if cost is less important than getting exactly what you want... 

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 3:58:54 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> I agree, Roberta. This is still confusing because I was told last year by 
> a Riv employee that I could no longer order a Hunq. So, a definitive list 
> of specific frames would help!
>
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread Bill Lindsay

Tom

The problem for Rivendell is that their supplier relationships change over 
time.  Do you want to order a frame today?  If so, which one?  Maybe I can 
help you figure out how to buy what you want to buy.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito CA

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 3:58:54 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> I agree, Roberta. This is still confusing because I was told last year by 
> a Riv employee that I could no longer order a Hunq. So, a definitive list 
> of specific frames would help!
>
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread tc

I agree, Roberta. This is still confusing because I was told last year by a Riv 
employee that I could no longer order a Hunq. So, a definitive list of specific 
frames would help!

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-24 Thread Roberta

I wonder why they don't advertise that, but keep it a secret.  Perhaps put 
at the bottom of their bike page, next to "Custom", "Previous production 
frames."  Then send out an email blast.

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:50:00 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> In case anyone else here is interested, I asked Riv and you can indeed 
> still order a Legolas (without the name) in a standard size for less than 
> full custom price. It is also possible to order other retired frames, eg, 
> the Saluki. 
>
> On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 5:01:14 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>>
>> What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but wow, 
>> they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  Is it 
>> simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order at 
>> custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  
>> Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?
>>
>> From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross 
>> bikes.  So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake when 
>> it came out.  
>>
>> Tom
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-23 Thread S

In case anyone else here is interested, I asked Riv and you can indeed 
still order a Legolas (without the name) in a standard size for less than 
full custom price. It is also possible to order other retired frames, eg, 
the Saluki. 

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 5:01:14 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but wow, 
> they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  Is it 
> simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order at 
> custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  
> Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?
>
> From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross bikes.  
> So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake when it came 
> out.  
>
> Tom
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

Speaking for myself, I like supporting Rivendell and I have bought from 
them over many years. I currently have two Rivendell frames, a Toyo and an 
MiT. I wish I could have bought more, but I bought what I could afford at 
the time. Inevitably, some of the other frames I was interested in slipped 
by. 

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 7:40:20 PM UTC-8, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> and the longer you wait the less chance there will be a company to order 
> from. If every person on this list who said “all I want is a X” decided to 
> buy a pre-designed model at the cost it takes to build them then things 
> might be very different. 
>
> Want a 750-1150$ bike? Find a time machine, buy a Crust or a MIT Riv. 
>
> > On Jan 22, 2020, at 7:22 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote: 
> > 
> > The longer you wait the higher the price will be. 
> > 
> > BL in EC 
> > 
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>  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Brian Campbell

Yes but. it was the last one (of that name) or so I was told. I don't 
know if you can now get the same frame at the same price. Best to call Riv 
and order one just to make sure!

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 10:16:29 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> Have you read the Legolas thread? Group member Brian Campbell got his 
> Legolas last year for $2,700: 
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/HyI-BnNcP3o
>
> As Bill Lindsay -- who also bought a Nobilette Legolas for less than the 
> current Rodeo price -- explained: "The price difference is in paying Grant 
> to design a new bike. The Legolas design is done, so it’s much much cheaper 
> than a custom."
>
> Thus, it's not unreasonable to suppose that you might be able to buy a 
> Saluki, etc, for Rodeo price. Maybe not, I don't know if Riv still has all 
> the lugs needed for the Saluki, but it's confirmed that you can get a 
> Legolas for $2,800 or less. 
>
> I am with you on the Charlie H. I am waiting to see it before deciding on 
> a semi-custom. 
>
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 6:21:50 PM UTC-8, John G. wrote:
>>
>> I don’t think anyone should assume they can get a Saluki, Bombadil, or 
>> Legolas for $2800. That’s the price for the Nobilette Roadeo. At the very 
>> least, I would expect the additional canti braze-one would increase the 
>> cost. 
>>
>> It will be interesting to see how Rivendell iterates the MIT frames. The 
>> longer chainstays and sloped top tubes seem to be somewhat divisive. Maybe 
>> the Gallop will be a hint of things to come. 
>>
>> John in Hoboken, who’d love to test ride a long chain stay Riv.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Justin August

and the longer you wait the less chance there will be a company to order from. 
If every person on this list who said “all I want is a X” decided to buy a 
pre-designed model at the cost it takes to build them then things might be very 
different. 

Want a 750-1150$ bike? Find a time machine, buy a Crust or a MIT Riv. 

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 7:22 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 
> The longer you wait the higher the price will be. 
> 
> BL in EC
> 
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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Bill Lindsay

The longer you wait the higher the price will be. 

BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

Have you read the Legolas thread? Group member Brian Campbell got his 
Legolas last year for $2,700: 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/HyI-BnNcP3o

As Bill Lindsay -- who also bought a Nobilette Legolas for less than the 
current Rodeo price -- explained: "The price difference is in paying Grant 
to design a new bike. The Legolas design is done, so it’s much much cheaper 
than a custom."

Thus, it's not unreasonable to suppose that you might be able to buy a 
Saluki, etc, for Rodeo price. Maybe not, I don't know if Riv still has all 
the lugs needed for the Saluki, but it's confirmed that you can get a 
Legolas for $2,800 or less. 

I am with you on the Charlie H. I am waiting to see it before deciding on a 
semi-custom. 

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 6:21:50 PM UTC-8, John G. wrote:
>
> I don’t think anyone should assume they can get a Saluki, Bombadil, or 
> Legolas for $2800. That’s the price for the Nobilette Roadeo. At the very 
> least, I would expect the additional canti braze-one would increase the 
> cost. 
>
> It will be interesting to see how Rivendell iterates the MIT frames. The 
> longer chainstays and sloped top tubes seem to be somewhat divisive. Maybe 
> the Gallop will be a hint of things to come. 
>
> John in Hoboken, who’d love to test ride a long chain stay Riv.

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread John G.

I don’t think anyone should assume they can get a Saluki, Bombadil, or Legolas 
for $2800. That’s the price for the Nobilette Roadeo. At the very least, I 
would expect the additional canti braze-one would increase the cost.

It will be interesting to see how Rivendell iterates the MIT frames. The longer 
chainstays and sloped top tubes seem to be somewhat divisive. Maybe the Gallop 
will be a hint of things to come.

John in Hoboken, who’d love to test ride a long chain stay Riv.

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Karl

Noted Joe!

Karl
Nash, TN

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

Sorry for contributing to that, although interesting that it worked to get 
people's attention . . . . . 

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 6:02:00 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> For future reference, kids, stunt titling a thread leads to predictable 
> results: People are going to revert to the title in the conversation. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

Yes, original Homer had different geometry. And even when the Homer first 
came out, it was available in size 57 and up only, with 700c wheels. I 
don't know if this changed later while still keeping the original 
geometry.  

I, too, would never spend $4,000 on a full custom, but I am intrig by the 
fact that you can get standard sizes of some previous models, eg, the 
Legolas, for $2,800. As I mentioned in the other thread, however, I am 
waiting to see this year's new models before I decide whether to get a 
semi-custom.

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 5:17:16 PM UTC-8, Jason Fuller wrote:
>
> Nah. Comparable to the previous Homer sure, but the new Homer is quite a 
> different bike.  I am actually disappointed it got the same name with such 
> an overhaul. 
>
> I'm also not going to ever be spending the custom Riv money (nor are many 
> people) but the MIT frames are quite competitive with brands like Crust in 
> price, and I think there's hugely more market share to be had by Rivendell 
> in that range 
>
> On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 17:10:44 UTC-8, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>>
>> The Saluki (I own one) is just a Homer.
>>
>> Buy one. 
>>
>> Or ask to get one with shorter chainstays made. 
>>
>> Put money on it. 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Joe Bernard

For future reference, kids, stunt titling a thread leads to predictable 
results: People are going to revert to the title in the conversation. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Jason Fuller

Nah. Comparable to the previous Homer sure, but the new Homer is quite a 
different bike.  I am actually disappointed it got the same name with such 
an overhaul. 

I'm also not going to ever be spending the custom Riv money (nor are many 
people) but the MIT frames are quite competitive with brands like Crust in 
price, and I think there's hugely more market share to be had by Rivendell 
in that range 

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 17:10:44 UTC-8, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> The Saluki (I own one) is just a Homer.
>
> Buy one. 
>
> Or ask to get one with shorter chainstays made. 
>
> Put money on it. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Justin, Oakland

The Saluki (I own one) is just a Homer.

Buy one. 

Or ask to get one with shorter chainstays made. 

Put money on it. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Karl

S,

Bought one in December. Can’t remember the final price, but always wanted one! 
Can barely wait the 6ish months!

Karl
Nash, TN

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

Agreed. Canti Saluki might be the perfect (lightly loaded) all-around bike? I 
am wondering if the semi-custom deal (Rodeo price) mentioned in the Legolas 
thread would work with the Saluki. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas, Bombadil, Saluki

2020-01-22 Thread Jason Fuller

Bringing back the Saluki would be a sure-fire way to get some money out of 
me. :D 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

If Waterford still will build frames for Rivendell you should be able to order 
a Waterford Atlantis or a Waterford Hilsen. The price Rivendell charges you is 
the price you’d pay. Both those frames were about $2600 recently so I’m sure 
that’s still fairly close. 

BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Theoretically, to which other models might this apply? For instance, could 
I order an original version Atlantis or AHH for this price? 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 2:15:10 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> The price difference is in paying Grant to design a new bike. The Legolas 
> design is done, so it’s much much cheaper than a custom. My Nobilette 
> Legolas price was lower than the current Nobilette Roadeo. D did the 
> paint. 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-19 Thread John G.

EXACTLY. It’s all I want. I’m going to ask.

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I am hoping that is the kind of bike the Charlie H Gallop turns out to be 
-- lighter, shorter wheelbase, cantis. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 4:05:52 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> It sounds to me like a lot of people would love a totally stock Roadeo 
> with cantilever brakes. Riv has done canti-Roms, canti-Rams, canti-Hilsen. 
> A canti-Roa might be the 2020 off-menu ultimate. Let’s race. First person 
> to round up the dollars should get their order in. 
>
> BL in EC 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

It sounds to me like a lot of people would love a totally stock Roadeo with 
cantilever brakes. Riv has done canti-Roms, canti-Rams, canti-Hilsen. A 
canti-Roa might be the 2020 off-menu ultimate. Let’s race. First person to 
round up the dollars should get their order in. 

BL in EC 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-19 Thread Brian Campbell

My frame & fork was $2,700. No additional charge for any braze-ons or 
paint. It has front & rear rack mounts, fender mounts, threaded rear brake 
bridge for fender mounting,threaded chainstay bridge for fenders, down-tube 
shifter mounts, pump peg and brazed on canti brake stop. The paint was done 
by D

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 3:45:16 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> Brian should be able to answer this question, if he doesn't mind. If Bill 
> is right, then Brian's Legolas pictured above should have cost $2,800, 
> minus fancy paint upcharge. 
>
> On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:28:12 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Bill, where is the price difference that would make Roadeo and 
>> potentially New Name Legolas cheaper than a full custom? No Joe Bell paint?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Yes, Rivendells are about the design -- versatility, lugs, geometry, ride. 
All the builders are good, but, of course, a Nobilette frame is going to be 
better than, say, some of the Taiwan made frames. I have a Taiwan made 
frame, and even though it is nicer than 90% of the other bikes out there, 
there are a few brazing/finish flaws. Maybe the newer Taiwan frames are 
better? In any case, my Rambouillet is noticeably crisper looking. 

Grant mentioned that the Clem is their best selling model, so clearly he 
was smart to go in that direction. All the design changes could be 
wonderful, for most people, they are just not my preferences. 

I have never cared about any cachet or mystique Rivendell may have. I buy 
from them because I like their philosophy and how their bikes look and 
ride. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 2:20:45 PM UTC-8, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
> And this thread has brought up a whole Sackville sack of questions that 
> I’d love to see discussed by Riv folks.
> This is not really the thread for it, but I’ll throw some out.
>
> Eric’s comments about Rene Herse.
> The Rivendell bikes are Riv designs whether MIT, made by Waterford, or 
> made by Mark Nobilette.  So “Rivendells” are the design, not the shop?  Joe 
> Smith could build it and you’re still getting a Riv?
>
> tc and S’s comments about favorite Riv models.  Again, it appears to be 
> the design.  Then add a number of the comments from the Long Wheel Base 
> thread.  Specifically, changes to the design seem to put people off.  So - 
> only some changes?  
>
> But in his interviews and books, Grant freely speaks of going the way 
> others don’t.  And we buy into that.  I’ve ridden an XO-1 and wouldn’t buy 
> one, but it is certainly a classic design like we’re discussing here.  I, 
> for one, am glad that the design has evolved.
>
> Then there’s the aesthetic, the cachet, and the philosophy of Rivendell.  
> If they are having financial worries as alluded to, well, it doesn’t matter 
> how many folks compliment a Legolas or how well it rides if Riv can’t make 
> a profit building these types of bikes.
>
> Will the “Legolas Mystique” apply to all lugged Riv bikes in the future?  
> Will Riv become mostly Clem Hs and Roadinis, leaving lugs to the customs?
>
> Another thread for another day.  But I would buy that Fuchsia custom, 
> above, to hang on my wall as art.  What a gorgeous bike.
>  
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Then that's a great deal. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 2:15:10 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> The price difference is in paying Grant to design a new bike. The Legolas 
> design is done, so it’s much much cheaper than a custom. My Nobilette 
> Legolas price was lower than the current Nobilette Roadeo. D did the 
> paint. 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-19 Thread aeroperf

And this thread has brought up a whole Sackville sack of questions that I’d
love to see discussed by Riv folks.
This is not really the thread for it, but I’ll throw some out.

Eric’s comments about Rene Herse.
The Rivendell bikes are Riv designs whether MIT, made by Waterford, or made
by Mark Nobilette. So “Rivendells” are the design, not the shop? Joe
Smith could build it and you’re still getting a Riv?

tc and S’s comments about favorite Riv models. Again, it appears to be the
design. Then add a number of the comments from the Long Wheel Base
thread. Specifically, changes to the design seem to put people off. So -
only some changes?

But in his interviews and books, Grant freely speaks of going the way
others don’t. And we buy into that. I’ve ridden an XO-1 and wouldn’t buy
one, but it is certainly a classic design like we’re discussing here. I,
for one, am glad that the design has evolved.

Then there’s the aesthetic, the cachet, and the philosophy of Rivendell.
If they are having financial worries as alluded to, well, it doesn’t matter
how many folks compliment a Legolas or how well it rides if Riv can’t make
a profit building these types of bikes.

Will the “Legolas Mystique” apply to all lugged Riv bikes in the future?
Will Riv become mostly Clem Hs and Roadinis, leaving lugs to the customs?

Another thread for another day. But I would buy that Fuchsia custom,
above, to hang on my wall as art. What a gorgeous bike.

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

The price difference is in paying Grant to design a new bike. The Legolas 
design is done, so it’s much much cheaper than a custom. My Nobilette Legolas 
price was lower than the current Nobilette Roadeo. D did the paint. 

Bill Lindsay 
El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Brian should be able to answer this question, if he doesn't mind. If Bill 
is right, then Brian's Legolas pictured above should have cost $2,800, 
minus fancy paint upcharge. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:28:12 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Bill, where is the price difference that would make Roadeo and potentially 
> New Name Legolas cheaper than a full custom? No Joe Bell paint?

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I doubt it would be Rodeo price. Brian could answer this question -- if you 
are correct, his Legolas pictured above should have cost $2,800, at least 
before fancy paint. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 11:14:13 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Rivendell is actively trying to drum up business for Mark Nobilette. If 
> you’ve got a $1400 frame deposit burning a hole in your pocket and want a 
> cyclocross race bike, I’m sure Riv will take your deposit and get your 
> frame made for you. I’d expect the Legolas price would be really close to a 
> Nobilette Roadeo. 
>
> BL in EC. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-19 Thread Joe Bernard

Bill, where is the price difference that would make Roadeo and potentially New 
Name Legolas cheaper than a full custom? No Joe Bell paint?

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Rivendell is actively trying to drum up business for Mark Nobilette. If you’ve 
got a $1400 frame deposit burning a hole in your pocket and want a cyclocross 
race bike, I’m sure Riv will take your deposit and get your frame made for you. 
I’d expect the Legolas price would be really close to a Nobilette Roadeo. 

BL in EC. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Also, the Legolas is a *racing* bike and I would guess that Grant Petersen 
never intended to offer it long term, being as Rivendell is the "un-racer" 
bike company. 

That said, I think a Legolas-like frame -- relatively lightweight, cantis, 
classic geometry -- might do well. I have wanted to buy a new frame from 
Riv for a while now, but I just can't get on board with the direction they 
have been taking, with the super long chainstays and compact geometry, etc. 
I know that some of these changes were forced by the market, but still, my 
favorite Rivs are by far the older ones, eg, All-Rounder, original 
Atlantis, Rambouillet, Hunqapillar, Legolas, etc. 

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 4:45:06 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> @aeroperf, Nice wine holder!  A little classier than a king cage, isn't 
> it.  I guess the whole Legolas thing, as you point out, seems to be so 
> niche that it wasn't viable to offer en masse like the MIT Sam, Atlantis, 
> Clem, -- even if the number of lugs were reduced, etc..  I, too, have 
> gotten to the point that it would likely not be a comfortable bike for me, 
> either.  But whenever "Legolas" is mentioned, it's like bears to honey 
> around here.  I would have thought that Legolas (or whatever its new name 
> would be) would be offered at a price point like the Rodeo, which is still 
> significantly less expensive than a custom.  I guess the business case just 
> isn't there after all.
>
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-19 Thread tc

@aeroperf, Nice wine holder!  A little classier than a king cage, isn't 
it.  I guess the whole Legolas thing, as you point out, seems to be so 
niche that it wasn't viable to offer en masse like the MIT Sam, Atlantis, 
Clem, -- even if the number of lugs were reduced, etc..  I, too, have 
gotten to the point that it would likely not be a comfortable bike for me, 
either.  But whenever "Legolas" is mentioned, it's like bears to honey 
around here.  I would have thought that Legolas (or whatever its new name 
would be) would be offered at a price point like the Rodeo, which is still 
significantly less expensive than a custom.  I guess the business case just 
isn't there after all.

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I also had a shot at a Legolas frame held right in front of my face by the man 
himself (Mark) and didn't jump. I'm not even going to tell you the price 
because you'll be just as saw as I am right now thinking about it 

But would I jump on one today? Nope. They're cool, but I have no use for a 
cyclocross frame with 700C wheels and the flat toptube and higher BB that 
discipline requires. Riv makes other bikes that work better for me.  

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

The Hunqapillar will be offered again, in a made to order version like the 
Rodeo. 

My understanding is that Grant retired the Legolas, Quickbeam, etc, for 
financial reasons. They were relatively expensive to produce and just 
didn't sell well enough. Rivendell has also had to move to using fewer lugs 
and frame sizes. That said, I hope the upcoming Charlie H Gallop is a 
return to the lighter, sportier Rivs of yesteryear. 

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:26:34 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:

> Thinking out loud here, I propose that if Riv continued to offer these 5 
> frames, *some* of their financial worries would be diminished. Accepting 
> the fact that I’ve enjoyed 2 glasses of Frank Family 2016 Lewis Vineyard 
> Chardonnay: 
> 1.  Original Atlantis geo 
> 2.  Hunq 
> 3.  Legolas 
> 4.  Rodeo 
> 5.  Sam. Who on earth, who’s been right-sized, does not love this bike?? 
>  Lordy, it is so wonderfully versatile.. Canti, likely would win. OK.  But 
> sidepull is just as awesome! 
>
> I don’t care if the former Legolas is renamed. How silly to abandon an 
> apparently bucket list design because of a copyright or trademark name 
> issue.   That’s why I’m wondering what my original post asked ... what’s 
> the big deal?  If it’s a great design, why not continue to offer it? 
>
> Wife says it’s late. Thanks for your thoughts. 
>
> Tom

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-18 Thread aeroperf

OK, and I’m glad that Warner Brothers didn’t force/change the name of the 
bike shop, too.

I’m thinking that you folks are right about everything coming together.  
Even my Sam gets compliments on the bike path by people who don’t know it’s 
a Rivendell, and by people who do, and it is part of the Riv attraction 
(though not nearly as much a part of the attraction as the ride, IMHO).  
The Legolas would probably get a lot more.
And I’m right there with tc - “How silly to abandon an apparently bucket 
list design because of a copyright or trademark name issue.”

But re-checking the thread, I’m not finding a lot of folks who say they 
would sign up for the Black Arrow, even if it was a production Riv bike 
that was an exact duplicate of the Legolas in all but name and just as 
beautiful.  I guess time really does march on, and that’s not a niche that 
people are screaming to have filled right now.

And tc, here’s for your wine: 
https://www.templecycles.co.uk/collections/accessories/products/leather-wine-bottle-holder

:-)

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:01:14 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:
>
> What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but wow, 
> they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  Is it 
> simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order at 
> custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  
> Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?
>
> From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross bikes.  
> So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake when it came 
> out.  
>
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

You are correct -- Rivendell can no longer use the Legolas name for 
copyright reasons. Warner Brothers allowed Riv to use up their remaining 
stock of decals but that was it.

As for the mystique . . . I think everything came together perfectly on the 
Legolas. Geometry, graphics, lug choices. And a frame with lightweight 
tubing and cantis is hard to find, especially these days. 

To put it another way, Rivendells are some of the most beautiful production 
bikes ever made and the Legolas is maybe one of their top three or four 
most beautiful models. Also, everyone who has a Legolas seems to love the 
ride, so they are more than just pretty. 

Even taking into account the reservations I have about cross geometry, I 
regret not buying a Legolas when they were in production and cost much less 
than a comparable custom would now. 

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-8, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
> Joe made a good point - my comment was a bit obscure.
>
> Let me ask the question a different way.  I believe (correct me if wrong) 
> that Rivendell isn’t making Legolas decals any more because of reasons 
> (maybe copyright)?
> But you CAN get a custom with the exact same geometry, and paint job?  If 
> you did, would it still have the “Legolas Mystique”?
>
> So if there were a limited run (i.e. less pricey than a $4000 custom), 
> with Legolas geometry but that had to be called something else, say, the 
> Black Arrow, would it still have the mystique?
> Because this is what I thought Tom was going for in the thread.
>
> I posted the Temple Cycles to show that there are other beautiful 
> fully-lugged bikes out there.
> So other than collector’s value of a versatile, beautiful bike that is no 
> longer in production, what is the thing with the Legolas?
> Or is that the thing?
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-18 Thread aeroperf


Joe made a good point - my comment was a bit obscure.

Let me ask the question a different way.  I believe (correct me if wrong) 
that Rivendell isn’t making Legolas decals any more because of reasons 
(maybe copyright)?
But you CAN get a custom with the exact same geometry, and paint job?  If 
you did, would it still have the “Legolas Mystique”?

So if there were a limited run (i.e. less pricey than a $4000 custom), with 
Legolas geometry but that had to be called something else, say, the Black 
Arrow, would it still have the mystique?
Because this is what I thought Tom was going for in the thread.

I posted the Temple Cycles to show that there are other beautiful 
fully-lugged bikes out there.
So other than collector’s value of a versatile, beautiful bike that is no 
longer in production, what is the thing with the Legolas?
Or is that the thing?


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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I don't understand the connection to Temple Cycles (which I've never heard of). 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-18 Thread aeroperf


Probably not for me, because I don't bend that well anymore.
Also, you can get a wine bottle holder with these: 
https://www.templecycles.co.uk/  :-)
I agree the Legolas is one beautiful bike, though.


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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

His wife Amy's fuschia crosser is amazing, too. I saw it live in color once and 
it's shocking! 

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 1:45:23 PM UTC-8, S wrote:
> Mark's bikes are my favorites on the Staff Bikes page. His two customs look 
> like the Legolas, which is no surprise as Grant has referred to the Legolas 
> as "Mark's bike."
> 
> 
> 
> If I were to order a custom, I would ask for the matte green Legolas, but 
> with the changes I mentioned above. And maybe 650b. 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 1:22:08 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:I love 
> that green. This matte green on Mark @ Riv's Legolas is pretty rad, too. I 
> tried to talk myself into it for my upcoming (not a Legolas) custom but I'm 
> not that brave!  
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-8, Brian Campbell wrote:
> 
> > I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals 
> > left. and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order 
> > (different decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube 
> > angles than my 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if 
> > it was "better' than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 
> > 70 mile mixed surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and 
> > regardless of the terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great 
> > on and off road with 32mm Compass tires.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have 
> > mounts for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is 
> > with fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not 
> > tons of snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed 
> > for riding between December and April.. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

Mark's bikes are my favorites on the Staff Bikes page. His two customs look 
like the Legolas, which is no surprise as Grant has referred to the Legolas 
as "Mark's bike."

If I were to order a custom, I would ask for the matte green Legolas, but 
with the changes I mentioned above. And maybe 650b. 

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 1:22:08 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I love that green. This matte green on Mark @ Riv's Legolas is pretty rad, 
> too. I tried to talk myself into it for my upcoming (not a Legolas) custom 
> but I'm not that brave!   
>
> On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-8, Brian Campbell wrote: 
> > I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals 
> left. and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order 
> (different decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube 
> angles than my 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if 
> it was "better' than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 
> 70 mile mixed surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and 
> regardless of the terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great 
> on and off road with 32mm Compass tires. 
> > 
> > 
> > When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have 
> mounts for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is 
> with fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not 
> tons of snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed 
> for riding between December and April..  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

I love that green. This matte green on Mark @ Riv's Legolas is pretty rad, too. 
I tried to talk myself into it for my upcoming (not a Legolas) custom but I'm 
not that brave!  

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-8, Brian Campbell wrote:
> I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals left. 
> and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order (different 
> decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube angles than my 
> 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if it was "better' 
> than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 70 mile mixed 
> surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and regardless of the 
> terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great on and off road with 
> 32mm Compass tires.
> 
> 
> When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have mounts 
> for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is with 
> fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not tons of 
> snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed for riding 
> between December and April.. 

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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

That's a great looking bike. Excellent choices all around, from paint to 
components. 

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-8, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
> I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals 
> left. and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order 
> (different decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube 
> angles than my 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if 
> it was "better' than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 
> 70 mile mixed surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and 
> regardless of the terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great 
> on and off road with 32mm Compass tires.
>
> When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have 
> mounts for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is 
> with fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not 
> tons of snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed 
> for riding between December and April.. 
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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

2020-01-18 Thread Brian Campbell

I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals 
left. and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order 
(different decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube 
angles than my 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if 
it was "better' than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 
70 mile mixed surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and 
regardless of the terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great 
on and off road with 32mm Compass tires.

When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have 
mounts for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is 
with fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not 
tons of snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed 
for riding between December and April.. 







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[RBW] Re: Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?