[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Kainalu]

Anyone looking for an early adopter of your Appaloosa handlebars? I'll be 
happy to take them.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY


On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back at 
> you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 miles. The 
> fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see about the 
> color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is awesome. I'm in 
> no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't be one of the 
> early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them next year.
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>
>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about 
>> the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, 
>> i'd be all over this. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm looking at those bars and thinking "$2100 for that sweet handlebar, and 
it comes with a FREE BIKE attached"

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 1:47:51 PM UTC-7, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Anyone looking for an early adopter of your Appaloosa handlebars? I'll be 
> happy to take them.
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back 
>> at you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 
>> miles. The fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see 
>> about the color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is 
>> awesome. I'm in no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't 
>> be one of the early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them 
>> next year.
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> Vallejo, CA. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>>
>>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel 
>>> about the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying 
>>> around, i'd be all over this. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Dave Brandt]

As others have mentioned I have also been waiting on a frameset. Part of what I 
enjoy about Rivendell's is the individuality of each bike being set up by each 
owners preferences. Alain I don't know what components are being put on this 
complete to invest $2100. I do like the rigidity of the bullmoose handlebars 
and the angle shown on this one but I don't like not having the ability to 
rotate them to my preferred angle. I understand Rivendell will be selling this 
frame in the future, but who knows when that will be. I'm strongly considering 
going back to a Hunqapiller but I feel in between sizes.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly prefer 
the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
in this area.  

I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes offered 
as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 



On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
> really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.
>
> I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the 
> Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
> could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
> better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand 
> new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  
>
>  
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
>> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem but 
>> the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long chain 
>> stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it seems the 
>> joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the Clem 
>> geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that being 
>> said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a different 
>> price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day due to 
>> their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun riding it, 
>> that hasn't changed.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Garth]

   As a Bomba owner of an early version I appreciate it even more with each 
succesive model !   It's great not needing another frame . 


   

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:33:06 AM UTC-4, El Sapo wrote:
>
> Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
> really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.
>
> I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the 
> Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
> could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
> better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand 
> new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  
>
>  
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Zed Martinez]

Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near as 
I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions as 
the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an old-school 
bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy 
ones: 
http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
 
I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
geometries.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>
> I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly prefer 
> the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
> Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
> my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
> huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
> backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
> on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
> in this area.  
>
> I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes offered 
> as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>>
>> Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
>> really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.
>>
>> I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the 
>> Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
>> could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
>> better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand 
>> new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  
>>
>>  
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>>
>>> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
>>> but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long 
>>> chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
>>> seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
>>> Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that 
>>> being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
>>> different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day 
>>> due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
>>> riding it, that hasn't changed.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Zed Martinez]

Sweet! Glad to hear it Kurt, and nice seeing it again. I just keep 
remembering that bike whenever the Appaloosa/Clem talk turns to how they 
need to have sweepy bars ;) I just keep thinking how much I'd rather have 
that setup with the more mountainy posture.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:57:32 AM UTC-4, Kurt Manley wrote:
>
>
> 
> That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:38:56 AM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near 
>> as I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions 
>> as the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an 
>> old-school bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: 
>> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
>>  
>> I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
>> but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
>> with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
>> frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
>> posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
>> The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
>> long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
>> have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
>> Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
>> tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
>> and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
>> bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
>> Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
>> geometries.
>>
>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly 
>>> prefer the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
>>> Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
>>> my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
>>> huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
>>> backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
>>> on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
>>> in this area.  
>>>
>>> I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes 
>>> offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:

 Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
 really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.

 I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's 
 the Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
 could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
 better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a 
 brand 
 new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  

  
 On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:

> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
> but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long 
> chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
> seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
> Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but 
> that 
> being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
> different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one 
> day 
> due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
> riding it, that hasn't changed.



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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Kurt Manley]

That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:38:56 AM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near as 
> I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions as 
> the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an old-school 
> bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: 
> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
>  
> I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
> but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
> with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
> frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
> posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
> The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
> long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
> have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
> Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
> tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
> and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
> bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
> Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
> geometries.
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>>
>> I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly prefer 
>> the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
>> Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
>> my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
>> huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
>> backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
>> on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
>> in this area.  
>>
>> I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes 
>> offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>>>
>>> Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
>>> really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.
>>>
>>> I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the 
>>> Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
>>> could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
>>> better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand 
>>> new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  
>>>
>>>  
>>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>>>
 Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
 but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long 
 chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
 seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
 Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that 
 being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
 different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day 
 due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
 riding it, that hasn't changed.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Philip Kim]

such a sweet bike!

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:57:32 AM UTC-4, Kurt Manley wrote:
>
>
> 
> That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:38:56 AM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near 
>> as I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions 
>> as the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an 
>> old-school bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: 
>> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
>>  
>> I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
>> but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
>> with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
>> frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
>> posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
>> The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
>> long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
>> have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
>> Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
>> tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
>> and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
>> bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
>> Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
>> geometries.
>>
>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly 
>>> prefer the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
>>> Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
>>> my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
>>> huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
>>> backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
>>> on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
>>> in this area.  
>>>
>>> I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes 
>>> offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:

 Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
 really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.

 I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's 
 the Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
 could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
 better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a 
 brand 
 new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  

  
 On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:

> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
> but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long 
> chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
> seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
> Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but 
> that 
> being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
> different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one 
> day 
> due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
> riding it, that hasn't changed.



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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[drew]

im still not sure what exactly makes this more like a 
hunq/atlantis/bombadil than a sam hillborne. from my novice reading and 
riv's 2011 chart, the geometry is almost the same as a sam (excluding 
longer stays), the prototype looks like a sam and it's replacing the sam in 
the lineup for now. i understand it has canti mounts, but sams have had 
those too. 

when i first heard about it, i was excited about the idea of sam with more 
off road tendencies. i thought it filled a gap in the lineup and would 
appeal to people who wanted something for rougher stuff who would be put 
off by the extreme stoutness of atlanti/hunq/bombadil (and now clem), and 
would appreciate a slightly lighter version.  at the pricepoint, it seems 
like it could compete with the somas and salsas and all those brands. 

i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper 
atlantis. it seems like that will only diminish atlantis sales and not add 
anything new to the lineup that isnt covered by a few other bikes already. 

still, i think it is an awesome bike. 


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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Now that, I do like!!!   I have to say that Bullmoose handlebars are sort 
of an end goal for me on my dream bike.  Is that a 26", 650B or 700c bike?



On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:57:32 AM UTC-5, Kurt Manley wrote:
>
>
> 
> That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:38:56 AM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near 
>> as I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions 
>> as the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an 
>> old-school bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: 
>> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
>>  
>> I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
>> but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
>> with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
>> frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
>> posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
>> The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
>> long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
>> have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
>> Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
>> tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
>> and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
>> bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
>> Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
>> geometries.
>>
>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly 
>>> prefer the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
>>> Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
>>> my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
>>> huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of 
>>> backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted 
>>> on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
>>> in this area.  
>>>
>>> I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes 
>>> offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:

 Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
 really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.

 I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's 
 the Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
 could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
 better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a 
 brand 
 new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  

  
 On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:

> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
> but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long 
> chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
> seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
> Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but 
> that 
> being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
> different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one 
> day 
> due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
> riding it, that hasn't changed.



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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Philip Kim]

I thought about this too, but maybe it has to do with tubing? They created 
a new fork crown, which seems to be made for rougher stuff.

The geometry is different than a Sam. Longer wheelbase - longer CS and more 
fork rake. Lower BB, longer TT. HT and ST seems to be in between the 
Atlantis and Sam.

Seems like a more stretched out and stable bike, and sits between an 
atlantis and hillborne.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:30:03 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:
>
> im still not sure what exactly makes this more like a 
> hunq/atlantis/bombadil than a sam hillborne. from my novice reading and 
> riv's 2011 chart, the geometry is almost the same as a sam (excluding 
> longer stays), the prototype looks like a sam and it's replacing the sam in 
> the lineup for now. i understand it has canti mounts, but sams have had 
> those too. 
>
> when i first heard about it, i was excited about the idea of sam with more 
> off road tendencies. i thought it filled a gap in the lineup and would 
> appeal to people who wanted something for rougher stuff who would be put 
> off by the extreme stoutness of atlanti/hunq/bombadil (and now clem), and 
> would appreciate a slightly lighter version.  at the pricepoint, it seems 
> like it could compete with the somas and salsas and all those brands. 
>
> i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper 
> atlantis. it seems like that will only diminish atlantis sales and not add 
> anything new to the lineup that isnt covered by a few other bikes already. 
>
> still, i think it is an awesome bike. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[El Sapo]

I'm a bullmoose handlebar lover. But after riding this bosco bullmoose, I think 
it's better (for me). Ive moved on from drop bars. This Bosco is going to make 
me move on from mountain bike bars. Keep in mind that your hand position can 
move from the grips (way back) to a point where they are right at the head 
tube. That's plenty of posture change for me. I think people are going to love 
the bosco.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Bill Lindsay]

"i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper 
atlantis."

I disagree that they are  "marketing it as a cheaper atlantis".  They 
sometimes attempt to give us context about what kind of riding it is 
intended with relative statements like it fits in between the Atlantis and 
Hunqapillar.  They sometimes describe bikes relative to other bikes with 
similar designs, like "it's like a Hillborne with longer chainstays and 
cantilever brakes.  I wouldn't call any of that marketing.  They are trying 
to explain what it is to people who might look at it and say "what the heck 
is that?"  For those of us who don't need the relative comparisons to other 
models, we can ignore them.  The Joe Appaloosa is just a kickass bike, 
which is good enough for me.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:30:03 AM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>
> im still not sure what exactly makes this more like a 
> hunq/atlantis/bombadil than a sam hillborne. from my novice reading and 
> riv's 2011 chart, the geometry is almost the same as a sam (excluding 
> longer stays), the prototype looks like a sam and it's replacing the sam in 
> the lineup for now. i understand it has canti mounts, but sams have had 
> those too. 
>
> when i first heard about it, i was excited about the idea of sam with more 
> off road tendencies. i thought it filled a gap in the lineup and would 
> appeal to people who wanted something for rougher stuff who would be put 
> off by the extreme stoutness of atlanti/hunq/bombadil (and now clem), and 
> would appreciate a slightly lighter version.  at the pricepoint, it seems 
> like it could compete with the somas and salsas and all those brands. 
>
> i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper 
> atlantis. it seems like that will only diminish atlantis sales and not add 
> anything new to the lineup that isnt covered by a few other bikes already. 
>
> still, i think it is an awesome bike. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Kurt Manley]

It's a 700c, 29x2.1 on it in the photo

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>
> Now that, I do like!!!   I have to say that Bullmoose handlebars are sort 
> of an end goal for me on my dream bike.  Is that a 26", 650B or 700c bike?
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:57:32 AM UTC-5, Kurt Manley wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>> That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!
>>
>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:38:56 AM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>>
>>> Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near 
>>> as I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions 
>>> as the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an 
>>> old-school bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: 
>>> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122
>>>  
>>> I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, 
>>> but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have 
>>> with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new 
>>> frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey 
>>> posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). 
>>> The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the 
>>> long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would 
>>> have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the 
>>> Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top 
>>> tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes 
>>> and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat 
>>> bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the 
>>> Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem 
>>> geometries.
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:56:07 AM UTC-4, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly 
 prefer the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and 
 Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly 
 my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with 
 huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees 
 of 
 backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight 
 planted 
 on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me 
 in this area.  

 I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes 
 offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 



 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
> really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.
>
> I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's 
> the Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
> could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
> better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a 
> brand 
> new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  
>
>  
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
>> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem 
>> but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features 
>> (long 
>> chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it 
>> seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the 
>> Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but 
>> that 
>> being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a 
>> different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one 
>> day 
>> due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun 
>> riding it, that hasn't changed.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Philip Kim]

Agreed, I'll have to wait to see if they are just selling framesets. I'm 
also not too big a fan of the Hillborne blue color. The $400 off is very 
tempting though...

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Marco wrote:
>
> Really liking the look of this bike, It's got me considering selling my 
> Atlantis, but I certainly don't want the stock build. I would likely 
> transfer all the parts from my Atlantis to a Japaloosa. The bar looks like 
> it would be stiff and comfortable but it's ugly as hell...
>
>
> Hmmm... decisions, decisions
>
>  "but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer."
> did you notice the length of the top tube? this frame has upright, swept 
> back bars written all over it. my 2 cents.
>
> On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-4, Matt R wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
>> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
>> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
>> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
>> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
>> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
>> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
>> be a wonderful bike!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Matt in Tucson
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Wayne Naha]

It not my fault!  Riv is making too many great bikes.  It is an exciting 
time to be part of everything going on.

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 6:48:22 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 12:07 AM, Wayne Naha wrote:
>
> No regrets here.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a Joe 
> alongside my Clem.  It just that when my wife and I were discussing my Clem 
> purchase she asked, "Is this the last bike you are going to buy *during 
> our marriage*?"  It's a little soon to try and weasel out of that one.
>
>
> There's only one thing to say, and Nancy Reagan said it a long time ago:  
> "Just say no."
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Jeffrey Marco]

Really liking the look of this bike, It's got me considering selling my 
Atlantis, but I certainly don't want the stock build. I would likely 
transfer all the parts from my Atlantis to a Japaloosa. The bar looks like 
it would be stiff and comfortable but it's ugly as hell...


Hmmm... decisions, decisions

 "but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer."
did you notice the length of the top tube? this frame has upright, swept 
back bars written all over it. my 2 cents.

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-4, Matt R wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
> be a wonderful bike!
>
> Cheers,
> Matt in Tucson
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Ginz]

I think the complete bike is a great deal.  The only parts I can't live 
with are the brakes, but that's an easy swap. I'd have to try that 
handlebar, too. Not sure about that.

The wheelsets are the achilles heel of complete bike builds but these have 
the Silver hubs, both 36h.  That's a great thing.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Mark Etze' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I thought this was going to be that bike. Would they do two new bikes in 
one year?

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:36:37 AM UTC-4, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Right? Although it's been said over the phone that something specifically 
> tailored to the 100 club was in the works in the coming year. It might be 
> secret, I'm sure information will be released in a need to know basis. No 
> norms.
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Kainalu]

Right? Although it's been said over the phone that something specifically 
tailored to the 100 club was in the works in the coming year. It might be 
secret, I'm sure information will be released in a need to know basis. No norms.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Abcyclehank]

If a "Giant" Joe Appaloosa came out for 97+PBH I would be an early adopter for 
sure.  That price point is a screaming deal even leaving wiggle room for 
personal preferences like brakes, dyno, or cockpit.  

Blue would not be my first choice but never a deal breaker from my perspective. 
 RWH is like 19 for 21 with color choices in single color models in my opinion.

Ryan
Spring Lake, MI

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Kainalu]

Right? Although it's been said over the phone that something specifically 
tailored to the 100 club was in the works I'm the coming year. It might be 
secret, I'm sure information will be released in a need to know basis. No norms.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Lynne Cooney]

For me a dynamo hub is non negotiable, so that rules out most complete bikes. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Mark Etze' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am so disappointed  in their sizing. Once again they left out the over 
97cm crowd. I thought the Appaloosa was originally supposed to be for 
larger riders. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Jeremy Till]

Me too.  I had the Bosco Bullmoose on my QB but took them off...just too 
much rise for the already tall front end, and had discovered that 
(standard) boscos worked better with my Trucker anyways.  Since then I've 
tried a number of bar configurations on the QB but nothing really gelled. 
 This thing looks awesome...everything I loved about the Bosco Bullmoose 
but in lower rise.  As long as the width is sufficient (at least 58cm, 
please!), I'll be the first in line for the new bar after-market.  

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:56:40 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back at 
> you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 miles. The 
> fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see about the 
> color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is awesome. I'm in 
> no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't be one of the 
> early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them next year.
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>
>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about 
>> the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, 
>> i'd be all over this. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Braxton Colagross]

They might credit you to have Rich build a set. And even if not, the $400 
off will cover one of their in-stock Velocity-built SP dyno wheels.

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 7:44:33 AM UTC-7, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>
> For me a dynamo hub is non negotiable, so that rules out most complete 
> bikes. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[iamkeith]

This is my *dream* handlebar too!!  Basically a similar function to a 
moustache bar, but with the primary hand position (the one with access to 
the brake levers) being the closer, more upright one.  That's where I need 
the brakes, because that's where my hands are when I'm riding slow or in 
town or in stop-and-go situations.  The lower/aero/tuck position doesn't 
need brakes nearly as often, the way I use it - on the open road.

I tried a Civia Aldrich bar which was "sort" of similar and came in 
different widths and different splay angles, but all were too narrow and 
too small in the grip area:

http://www.cambriabike.com/Civia-Aldrich-Cruiser-MultiPosition-Handlebars-ALDRICHBAR70DEGSIL.asp

Nitto makes a similar shape too, but they're even narrower: 

https://www.benscycle.com/p-1277-nitto-promenade-b601-aluminum-handlebars.aspx

The problem is that widening any bar with this shape, or making the grips 
longer, just adds leverage and makes it easier to inadvertently rotate it 
in the stem clamp.  ( I have had that problem with my non-bullmoose bosco, 
even with a good quality stem.) These new bars, with the bull-moose stem, 
seem to solve both problems.  Nice amount of rise, too!  I prefer to get 
low by stretching out further - not by contorting my back and reaching down 
to the bars.

I too hope these are available aftermarket/individually, and SOON!


On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 9:25:42 AM UTC-6, Jeremy Till wrote:

> Me too.  I had the Bosco Bullmoose on my QB but took them off...just too 
> much rise for the already tall front end, and had discovered that 
> (standard) boscos worked better with my Trucker anyways.  Since then I've 
> tried a number of bar configurations on the QB but nothing really gelled. 
>  This thing looks awesome...everything I loved about the Bosco Bullmoose 
> but in lower rise.  As long as the width is sufficient (at least 58cm, 
> please!), I'll be the first in line for the new bar after-market.  
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:56:40 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back 
>> at you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 
>> miles. The fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see 
>> about the color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is 
>> awesome. I'm in no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't 
>> be one of the early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them 
>> next year.
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> Vallejo, CA. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>>
>>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel 
>>> about the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying 
>>> around, i'd be all over this. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Shoji Takahashi]

Pics of the Appaloosa on the Blug are terrific. I'm looking forward to the 
pics of the new fork crown built up. (BTW-- looks like the "fix" to the 
fork crown was to eliminate the windows facing the midline. 
see 
http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/123735570644/more-on-the-crown-in-the-post-below-this-ungrant)

Question:
What are group members' thoughts on how Appaloosa compares to Cheviot, the 
first mainstream available long-chainstay Riv? 

Having a Hunqapillar and AHH in the stable, it seems like Appaloosa might 
be too much overlap. The Cheviot is distinctly different as a mixte, and 
bonus has the long stays. But the presale price, fork crown, head badge, 
choco-moose bars... that's a tough bike to love (or was that another bike?) 
:)

Thanks for your opinions,
shoji



On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Marco wrote:
>
> Really liking the look of this bike, It's got me considering selling my 
> Atlantis, but I certainly don't want the stock build. I would likely 
> transfer all the parts from my Atlantis to a Japaloosa. The bar looks like 
> it would be stiff and comfortable but it's ugly as hell...
>
>
> Hmmm... decisions, decisions
>
>  "but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer."
> did you notice the length of the top tube? this frame has upright, swept 
> back bars written all over it. my 2 cents.
>
> On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-4, Matt R wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
>> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
>> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
>> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
>> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
>> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
>> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
>> be a wonderful bike!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Matt in Tucson
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Bill Lindsay]

I think Shoji's Hunqapillar and the Joe Appaloosa have a lot of overlap. 
 The Appaloosa would be awesome for me because I sold my Bombadil to 
finance a Mountain Bike, and because I don't own a Hunqapillar.  

Comparing the Cheviut to the Appaloosa, I slightly prefer 
cantilever/V-brakes for huge tires.  
Comparing my 58 Atlantis to the Appaloosa, one of the only tiny gripes I 
have with my Atlantis is TCO (toe-clip-overlap).  Grant never used to use 
"front center" measurements in his geo-charts, but with swept back bars and 
long stays, you can stretch the top tube way out and get a longer front 
center, and eliminate TCO.  Some will then hate that they can't run drop 
bars on these bikes, because the top tube is too long.  I'm going to 
measure the front center on my Atlantis, and compare it to the 627.4mm of a 
58 Appaloosa.  No TCO would be a draw.  Low-trail bikes eliminate TCO with 
650B wheels and/or a ton of fork rake.  




On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 12:54:29 PM UTC-7, Shoji Takahashi wrote:
>
> Pics of the Appaloosa on the Blug are terrific. I'm looking forward to the 
> pics of the new fork crown built up. (BTW-- looks like the "fix" to the 
> fork crown was to eliminate the windows facing the midline. see 
> http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/123735570644/more-on-the-crown-in-the-post-below-this-ungrant
> )
>
> Question:
> What are group members' thoughts on how Appaloosa compares to Cheviot, the 
> first mainstream available long-chainstay Riv? 
>
> Having a Hunqapillar and AHH in the stable, it seems like Appaloosa might 
> be too much overlap. The Cheviot is distinctly different as a mixte, and 
> bonus has the long stays. But the presale price, fork crown, head badge, 
> choco-moose bars... that's a tough bike to love (or was that another bike?) 
> :)
>
> Thanks for your opinions,
> shoji
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Marco wrote:
>>
>> Really liking the look of this bike, It's got me considering selling my 
>> Atlantis, but I certainly don't want the stock build. I would likely 
>> transfer all the parts from my Atlantis to a Japaloosa. The bar looks like 
>> it would be stiff and comfortable but it's ugly as hell...
>>
>>
>> Hmmm... decisions, decisions
>>
>>  "but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer."
>> did you notice the length of the top tube? this frame has upright, swept 
>> back bars written all over it. my 2 cents.
>>
>> On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-4, Matt R wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
>>> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
>>> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
>>> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
>>> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
>>> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
>>> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
>>> be a wonderful bike!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Matt in Tucson
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[James Warren]

These are exactly my questions as well. I'm pretty set on what I have. Hunq (Bosco with 14 cm Ritchey stem, big dirt tires), Hillborne (classic Albatross, Barlow Pass fasties), and Atlantis (classic Albatross, 50 mm tires and fenders) trade off almost all of the duties on my favorite riding. (The drop bar bikes are seeing less time as well as the dedicated mountain bike.) I don't see the Appaloosa adding much beyond what these three amazing bikes already offer, but I am curious enough to comment about the longer chainstays:While I've had many extended periods of fun on the Atlantis in touring mode with drop bars and its 45.5 cm chainstays, I don't think I would consider putting drop bars on a bike with 53.5 mm chainstays like the Joe Appaloosa. I buy the argument that the super long chainstay design is best suited to bikes with upright bars like the Bosco and Albatross, because these bars shift the center of mass (of the rider/bike system) rearward. This makes me think of it as a bike that is different from the Atlantis and Hillborne in a fairly substantial way. I'd go back to drop bars on those, but not on a Joe Appaloosa. (The numbers above refer to my Atantis, which was made before they lengthened the chainstays a couple years ago. They used to be 45.5 cm in my size, and now they are 47 cm.)Superficial Sidenote: I love the Hillborne blue, but I pictured the Joe Appaloosa as a dark red frame. For some reason, that's the color it's supposed to be in my mind. I don't know why.-Jim W.-Original Message-
From: Shoji Takahashi 
 Having a Hunqapillar and AHH in the stable, it seems like Appaloosa might be too much overlap. The Cheviot is distinctly different as a mixte, and bonus has the long stays. But the presale price, fork crown, head badge, choco-moose bars... that's a tough bike to love (or was that another bike?) :)








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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[iamkeith]

Comparing it to the Hunqapillar and Atlantis,  the most interesting thing 
about the Appaloosa geometry to me is that it appears to be intended for 
use with a smaller maximum tire size.  Perhaps this suggests that it 
is slated to be even more of a touring-specific bike, than the jack-of-many 
trades bike that the other two are?  The Hunqapillar says 60mm (2.4") max, 
while the Atlantis and Appaloosa both say 55mm (2") max.  We know, of 
course that people successfully run 2.5" even on the Atlantis - but it 
shares the same, huge, 80mm bottom bracket drop that the Hunqapillar has 
(or vice versa).The drop on the Appaloosa, on the other hand, is 2 to 3 
cm less, so it sits  higher.  

So even if you could squeeze a bigger-than-rated tire in there, it's going 
to raise the center of gravity and the top tube as well.  As a 
mountain bike, this might actually be better, but the sizing would 
effectively run a little larger.  As a touring bike, a taller tire would 
seem to reduce stability - but maybe the longer chainstays compensate?  

Either way, it seems to be a bit of a departure from existing Rivendell 
philosophy, where even the recent Clem has the same drop as the Atlantis 
and Hunqapillar.  Kind of curious too, given the fact that  most of us tend 
to try to squeeze in the biggest tire we can fit, and that fatter tires are 
becoming available regularly.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[iamkeith]

Comparing it to the Hunqapillar and Atlantis,  the most interesting thing 
about the Appaloosa geometry to me is that it appears to be intended for 
use with a smaller maximum tire size.  Perhaps this suggests that it 
is slated to be even more of a touring-specific bike, than the jack-of-many 
trades bike that the other two are?  The Hunqapillar says 60mm (2.4") max, 
while the Atlantis and Appaloosa both say 55mm (2") max.  We know, of 
course that people successfully run 2.5" even on the Atlantis - but it 
shares the same, huge, 80mm bottom bracket drop that the Hunqapillar has 
(or vice versa).The drop on the Appaloosa, on the other hand, is 2 to 3 
mm less, so it sits  higher.  

So even if you could squeeze a bigger-than-rated tire in there, it's going 
to raise the center of gravity and the top tube as well.  As a 
mountain bike, this might actually be better, but the sizing would 
effectively run a little larger.  As a touring bike, a higher center of 
gravity would seem to reduce stability - but maybe the longer chainstays 
compensate?   Or maybe 3mm is not enough to be noticeable, and my thinking 
is exactly opposite of correct, and it would be even MORE of a 
jack-of-all-trades.

Either way, it seems to be a bit of a departure from existing Rivendell 
philosophy, where even the recent Clem has the same drop as the Atlantis 
and Hunqapillar.  Tire size listed is kind of curious too, given the fact 
that  most of us tend to try to squeeze in the biggest tire we can fit, and 
that fatter tires are becoming available regularly.   I would have expected 
the beautiful new crown to take an even wider tire.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[James Warren]

The drop being 77 mm as opposed to  80 mm is puzzling to me.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:24 PM, iamkeith  wrote:
> 
> Comparing it to the Hunqapillar and Atlantis,  the most interesting thing 
> about the Appaloosa geometry to me is that it appears to be intended for use 
> with a smaller maximum tire size.  Perhaps this suggests that it is slated to 
> be even more of a touring-specific bike, than the jack-of-many trades bike 
> that the other two are?  The Hunqapillar says 60mm (2.4") max, while the 
> Atlantis and Appaloosa both say 55mm (2") max.  We know, of course that 
> people successfully run 2.5" even on the Atlantis - but it shares the same, 
> huge, 80mm bottom bracket drop that the Hunqapillar has (or vice versa).
> The drop on the Appaloosa, on the other hand, is 2 to 3 cm less, so it sits  
> higher. 
> 
> So even if you could squeeze a bigger-than-rated tire in there, it's going to 
> raise the center of gravity and the top tube as well.  As a mountain bike, 
> this might actually be better, but the sizing would effectively run a little 
> larger.  As a touring bike, a taller tire would seem to reduce stability - 
> but maybe the longer chainstays compensate? 
> 
> Either way, it seems to be a bit of a departure from existing Rivendell 
> philosophy, where even the recent Clem has the same drop as the Atlantis and 
> Hunqapillar.  Kind of curious too, given the fact that  most of us tend to 
> try to squeeze in the biggest tire we can fit, and that fatter tires are 
> becoming available regularly.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/29/2015 12:07 AM, Wayne Naha wrote:
No regrets here.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a 
Joe alongside my Clem.  It just that when my wife and I were 
discussing my Clem purchase she asked, "Is this the last bike you are 
going to buy _during our marriage_?"  It's a little soon to try and 
weasel out of that one.




There's only one thing to say, and Nancy Reagan said it a long time 
ago:  "Just say no."



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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[El Sapo]

Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I 
really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.

I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the 
Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe 
could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was 
better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand 
new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba?  

 
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:35:10 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:

> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem but 
> the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long chain 
> stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it seems the 
> joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the Clem 
> geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that being 
> said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a different 
> price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day due to 
> their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun riding it, 
> that hasn't changed.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Zach Duval]

Ooh, can a Hunqa fit a 2.5" tire?

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[dougP]

"With the JA, sounds like maybe, possibly, they are thinking of finally 
retiring the flagship...slowly, gently"

Certainly lots of mention of the differences between Joe & 
Atlantislonger stays, more tire clearance, etc.  The Atlantis has been 
around since 1999.75.  Maybe with the design philosophy leaning toward 
longer stays, this seems to be the direction of the future.  The real 
capper is getting a complete bike for less than the price of a frame & 
fork.  Hard to argue with that.  

dougP, happily growing old with a 12 year old Atlantis.  


On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:02:19 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> I really like the proto silver color with the cream, understated classy 
> but not boring. With the JA, sounds like maybe, possibly, they are thinking 
> of finally retiring the flagship...slowly, gently
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back 
>> at you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 
>> miles. The fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see 
>> about the color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is 
>> awesome. I'm in no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't 
>> be one of the early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them 
>> next year.
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> Vallejo, CA. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>>
>>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel 
>>> about the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying 
>>> around, i'd be all over this. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Wayne Naha]

No regrets here.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a Joe 
alongside my Clem.  It just that when my wife and I were discussing my Clem 
purchase she asked, "Is this the last bike you are going to buy *during our 
marriage*?"  It's a little soon to try and weasel out of that one.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 11:35:10 PM UTC-4, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem but 
> the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long chain 
> stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it seems the 
> joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the Clem 
> geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that being 
> said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a different 
> price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day due to 
> their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun riding it, 
> that hasn't changed.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I really like the proto silver color with the cream, understated classy but 
not boring. With the JA, sounds like maybe, possibly, they are thinking of 
finally retiring the flagship...slowly, gently

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back at 
> you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 miles. The 
> fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see about the 
> color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is awesome. I'm in 
> no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't be one of the 
> early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them next year.
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>
>> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about 
>> the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, 
>> i'd be all over this. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Tim Wood]

Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem but the 
58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long chain stays, 
tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it seems the joe could 
be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the Clem geometries prevent it 
from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that being said I haven't even 
ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a different price bracket and I don't 
see the purpose of owning both one day due to their similarities. I'm just 
going to love my Clem and have fun riding it, that hasn't changed.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[drew]

cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about 
the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, 
i'd be all over this. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Philip Kim]

Looks like Geo was released on the riv tumblr

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[BSWP]

The new J-A looks great, so many nice details all worked out. I had been 
leaning to a custom, for touring, but finances have been tight, and so that 
project is delayed. Does anyone know if the Joe will be offered eventually 
as just frame & fork?

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Bill Lindsay]

That bike is SICK!

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 2:59:31 PM UTC-7, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> Looks like Geo was released on the riv tumblr

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[James Warren]

GREAT gearing-Original Message-
From: Bill Lindsay <tapebu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Oct 28, 2015 4:51 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

That bike is SICK!On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 2:59:31 PM UTC-7, Philip Kim wrote:Looks like Geo was released on the riv tumblr



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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Joe Bernard]

I *love* the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back at 
you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 miles. The 
fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see about the 
color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is awesome. I'm in 
no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't be one of the 
early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them next year.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA. 

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

> cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about 
> the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, 
> i'd be all over this. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Jack B]

Wondering if the 62cm will be a single- or double-top-tube. 

Anyone know?

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Wayne Naha]

I love this bike!  

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
 

>
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[David Banzer]

58cm & 62cm are double top-tube.
I'm glad I went with the Clem frameset - complete bikes just don't appeal 
to me as I usually have enough parts to build up a couple frames. If this 
were offered as a frameset only in the future, I'd definitely be interested.
David
Chicago

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:20:03 PM UTC-5, Jack B wrote:
>
> Wondering if the 62cm will be a single- or double-top-tube. 
>
> Anyone know?
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[James Warren]

If I were betting, I'd bet double. Tougher call is parallel versus diagonal. 
I'm gonna guess parallel double.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2015, at 5:20 PM, Jack B  wrote:
> 
> Wondering if the 62cm will be a single- or double-top-tube. 
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[EGNolan]

One li'l thing that may also prove to be more Hunq/Atlantis than 
Atlantis/Hillborne is wheel size. Looks like the small J. Appaloosa had 26" 
wheels. Going 26" for small sizes would veer in the direction of 
Hunq/Atlantis & make it even more of a touring bike in the traditional 
sense than the 650b wheels on the smaller Hillbornes . I'm looking forward 
to a bike w/ more clearance & longer stays than the HIllborne that is 
equally affordable. I prefer canti's or V brakes over sidepulls & I think 
the App will be a winner on these accounts and probably many more that I 
don't know about yet. As always, just my  $.02...

Best,
Eric


>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[iamkeith]

Man, it's been driving me nuts for quite a while, trying to remember where 
I'd first heard that the new appaloosa was going to have long chainstays.  
But I finally figured it out:  It's in a post by Grant,  in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rbw-owners-bunch/urGzPAzOsj4/LfDsmtn9ccYJ

Another thought I had before locating this:  The Hillbourne used to have 
cantilever brakes, like the Hunquapillar.  The Hunquapillar used to have 
parallel, double top tubes like the Hillbourne, and less tire clearance.   
But both models have longer and more sloped top tubes than the Atlantis.   
If they just increased the clearance of the Hillbourne, *without* also 
lengthening the chainstays, wouldn't it essentially just be a Hunquapillar?

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 10:23:52 AM UTC-6, Garth wrote:

>
>   Exactly !   Proto means prototype , which explains itself .  Riv selling 
> a proto-type frame means nothing as to whether or not that particular frame 
> is what is to come . 
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:14:00 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> The problem here is the concept for this bike has bounced around a lot 
>> since the original Mystery Bikes were produced, and I'm not convinced the 
>> Protovelos were much more than design exercises. The only thing they nailed 
>> down was a head badge. 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[BenG]

I ride one of those Mystery Bike protovelos on 50mm Big Bens. Grant once wrote 
that it was especially designed for flat-landish commuting. That's my modus 
operandi, and we get along quite well. He wrote extensively in the Blug on what 
he was up to while designing his own prototype long bike, the first one. I also 
enjoy a 60cm dtt Hillborne on 38mm little Bens.  The prospect of a Hillborne on 
fatties sounds about perfect to me.

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Garth]

 The frame you mention is but "pie in the sky" as of today .   No one 
can know a geometry for a bike that does not exist !  

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Mark Etze' via RBW Owners Bunch]

If they plan on producing it sometime next year Riv must have their 
geometry charts finished by now. I hope they decide to make it in a larger 
stock size than do with any of their other large tired bikes. 

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 7:10:00 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
>
>
>  The frame you mention is but "pie in the sky" as of today .   No one 
> can know a geometry for a bike that does not exist !  
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Braxton Colagross]

Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with greater 
clearances" is "Hillborne with longer chainstays." Those two sum up Joe A. 
for me. 

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 9:46:30 AM UTC-7, Matt R wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
> be a wonderful bike!
>
> Cheers,
> Matt in Tucson
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-6, Braxton Colagross wrote:
>
> Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with 
> greater clearances" is *"Hillborne with longer chainstays."* 
>

That's what I had expected too, but those protovelos they sold in the Web 
Specials didn't look particularly long, at least to the naked eye.  
Hopefully someone saved an image and can share it. 

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Joe Bernard]

The problem here is the concept for this bike has bounced around a lot 
since the original Mystery Bikes were produced, and I'm not convinced the 
Protovelos were much more than design exercises. The only thing they nailed 
down was a head badge. 

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:28:33 AM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-6, Braxton Colagross wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with 
>> greater clearances" is *"Hillborne with longer chainstays."* 
>>
>
> That's what I had expected too, but those protovelos they sold in the Web 
> Specials didn't look particularly long, at least to the naked eye.  
> Hopefully someone saved an image and can share it. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Garth]

  Exactly !   Proto means prototype , which explains itself .  Riv selling 
a proto-type frame means nothing as to whether or not that particular frame 
is what is to come . 




On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:14:00 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The problem here is the concept for this bike has bounced around a lot 
> since the original Mystery Bikes were produced, and I'm not convinced the 
> Protovelos were much more than design exercises. The only thing they nailed 
> down was a head badge. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[James Warren]

You can see those Protovelos still pictured by navigating back in time on the Blug. What I couldn't find anymore are the descriptions that went with those photos. The descriptions went away after those Protovelos sold, I'm guessing.-Original Message-
From: iamkeith <keithhar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Oct 13, 2015 8:28 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-6, Braxton Colagross wrote:Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with greater clearances" is "Hillborne with longer chainstays." That's what I had expected too, but those protovelos they sold in the Web Specials didn't look particularly long, at least to the naked eye.  Hopefully someone saved an image and can share it. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Jim Bronson]

+1
The Appaloosa head badge is fantastic!

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> The problem here is the concept for this bike has bounced around a lot
> since the original Mystery Bikes were produced, and I'm not convinced the
> Protovelos were much more than design exercises. The only thing they nailed
> down was a head badge.
>
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:28:33 AM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-6, Braxton Colagross wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with
>>> greater clearances" is *"Hillborne with longer chainstays."*
>>>
>>
>> That's what I had expected too, but those protovelos they sold in the Web
>> Specials didn't look particularly long, at least to the naked eye.
>> Hopefully someone saved an image and can share it.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

[drew]

Yeah, at riv hq it was described as "like the hillborne but with more 
clearances". Could've changed since then, I guess, but the holding off on 
hillbornes and introducing the Appaloosa makes me think it's meant to fit in 
between sams and antlanti

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa geometry

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I missed this bike/frame.  Anyone have a photo?


On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-5, Matt R wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa 
> geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and 
> Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special 
> proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only 
> obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's 
> truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my 
> pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will 
> be a wonderful bike!
>
> Cheers,
> Matt in Tucson
>

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