just think about how with #13 calcs u start at the end and work
backwards. when you get to the start you're done
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just think about how with #13 calcs u start at the end and work
backwards. when you get to the start you're done
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has anyone noticed the title of nfpa 13 is NOT 'Standard for the
Insallation of AUTOMATIC Sprinkler Systems'? any history on this?
anything in 13 that says automatic is a must? Sorry to diverge even
further Cecil, from the lesson at hand. Ron, George, Steve, Ken, Thom?
anyone heard from
i guess. i think it all started in the big mills (whatever those were)
out east-if there was a fire in the lower 40 someone said 'hey joe, go
open valve L40E.
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patiently waiting (with baited breath) for you to care Teach
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'automatic' is in the definition of system types, and has probably
been required from the time the head replaced the hole.
sorry forum- i need to simmer down again- i'll try..
Ron, correction; i was waiting with bated breath, not baited.
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good stuff. here in the heart of not seismic, but the country itself, (if
fracing doesnt go to far) sway bracing is more like a fashion that comes
and goes; the PM says 'you done yet?, the tech says ya, uh this need to be
be braced?- ya- ok i need 10 minutes to throw some symbols at 40 and 80. I
Steve,
Math and science are opinion free.
Check the latest ROP, i think Roland was involved, there was something
about the 6 not allowing a fire to spread, and i remember thinking it
made sense. However that does not mean it was accepted. I would check
but i have left the building. (thanks
Steve,
Math and science are opinion free.
Check the latest ROP, i think Roland was involved, there was something
about the 6 not allowing a fire to spread, and i remember thinking it
made sense. However that does not mean it was accepted. I would check
but i have left the building. (thanks
definately concurr with Travis-- it is the same sprinkler air space
above the same fire floor space, with no vertical seperation.
Quoting Travis Mack, SET tm...@mfpdesign.com:
It is my understanding you have to flow them simultaneously, even if
the balance point is at the public main.
i wouldn't fret too much about perfect patterns. the heat of
vaporization of water is 970 btu/lb. the heat of combustion of most
fuels is 5600 btu/lb. pick a conservative fuel burning rate and put
that many pounds of water/time somewhere in the vicinity. firefighters
can probably FEEL this
I'll take it, based on the feeling that ten years from now 'green'
will have become 'greener still'.
Quoting Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org:
On May 25, 2012, at 3:49 AM, Damien Shannon wrote:
Any bets on whether any time in
the next decade or two that NFPA 13 will abandon
Is there a difference between abandoned and modified? What if the
13-23 tied Density to ceiling height and Area to occupancy? Even
without a fire, a .1 at the deflector is a .09 on the floor due to
some droplets evaporating by friction. The higher the ceiling, the
higher the amount of
Of course! the thought never occurred to me. it is not just the volume
of liquid water that makes it to the fire- that is just a number that
gives the amount of heat it can absorb on the return trip to the
sprikler! Genius!
Quoting mphe...@aerofire.com:
Most of the delivered density is
area tied to occupancy: min. ft2 -- L.H.=1000, O.H.1=1500, O.H.2=2000.
density tied to ceiling height for all 3 cases = .08 gpm/ft2 times
sprinkler height in feet. Any takers?
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dang me and typing numbers-- should be .008, not .08
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
area tied to occupancy: min. ft2 -- L.H.=1000, O.H.1=1500, O.H.2=2000.
density tied to ceiling height for all 3 cases = .08 gpm/ft2 times
sprinkler height in feet. Any takers?
Fact: a minimum pressure is required to 'push the stopper out of the
orifice' once the 'link has broken'. This means the column of water
above the head has to be at least 16 feet tall. (i wonder if this is
enough for the 'bigger stoppers' of today, but I'll trust the
manufacturers). An
correction, meter, not feet. i should have looked in 13 instead of
trying to recall and thinking i needed to convert. but i now have
another (perhaps stupid) question re the definition of fast response
and standard response: if fast is RTI=50 or less and standard is 80 or
more, what is in
BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than
the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you
will want to know exactly what you looking at, whether it makes sense
or not!
Quoting Bob b...@firebyknight.com:
If memory serves me well, which it
maybe backwards again-- main thing is look at both editions carefully
is the only help i can offer...
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than
the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you
will want to know
maybe backwards again-- main thing is look at both editions carefully
is the only help i can offer...
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than
the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you
will want to know
i don't get it yet Ed. luckily it is after hours so i don't have to.
Are the 2 key points normally energized and all but 1 link knocked
out?
Quoting Ed Vining edvinin...@gmail.com:
A story I have repeated often. Sometime after Adam was kicked out of Eden
KQED TV in San Francisco had an
Vince, no, not exactly yet. If you are calcing a certain number of
heads, the shape factor is not applicable. If you are calcing an area
per FM, the shape factor is tied to ceiling slope, as I posted. This
is not 'word of mouth', but my understanding from what I found in FM's
data sheet on
who knows chris? 15 max btwn heads, 1 hngr per head=15 max btwn hngrs?
13 is a standard-- you ever had a STANDARD JOB? standard vs.
performance is mutually exclusive. 13 is the result of engineering,
broken down in to tables of 'best fit', i.e., ok, lots of 16 inch
beams, plus 6= 22 max,
Look on the bright side here Steve- if the AHJ declares it Ord Haz II,
you could spec high temp, standard response heads, and the successful
contractor can finally use those old pendent heads that've been taking
up shop space.
Is EVERYTHING ever finally said about ANY sprinkler code issue?
one of these days: .008 GPM per sq.ft. per feet ceiling height over
entire STAGE-FORM area, (1) 1.5 hose valve w/30' hose and
extinguisher in cabinet centered on back wall, intermediate temp,
standard coverage, QR heads.
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for the same reason we do not want to screw a dry pend into a 1 C.I.
90 looking down, we should not screw a dry pend into a 1 pipe-o-let
looking down--the top of the dry pend does not make it above the
bottom of the pipe so after the hydro water sits on top of it and if
it freezes it
well... i'm not a lost cause yet. i'll give it some more thought. thanks.
Quoting Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org:
I was hoping I'd be able to convert you :)
The question of the most demanding would be WHICH cross main you
drop the rectangle on.
Roland
On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:48
search this forum for 'calcium chloride'- there are issues with that
too i know, but nothing that could not be resolved. the reason you mix
it slowly is bcoz heat is generated, which tells me we pre-combust
it. with a pressure tank as the approved water supply, bfp's, tapping
fees, etc go
the old.edu in me suggests putting 1 head in the 47 and calling the
other 2 bathrooms closets.
ps- *persuing, not perusing
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George,
I have never had to, am away from my desk, and would rather not aswer
a question with a question, or be overly general, but I would like to
know the extent of your problem-- how many risers (vertical pipes)
do you have to brace? I have to admit I think there is some confusion
on
all i got is some numbers:
27' ceiling height, 9 deflector distance, couch on fire in the middle
of a large, open furniture showroom---
286F, standard response- activation time = 188 seconds
286F, quick response- activation time = 172 seconds
212F, standard response- activation time = 97
!EXACTLY! Ron :)
I never try to predict anything, per se, I try to find the DIFFERENCE
between scenarios, in this case the same Ceiling Height and Heat
Release Rate versus sprinkler Temp and RTI. For a benchmark, I found
the steady state HRR that would activate a 286 SR in ~180 seconds,
In the recent 'Temperature Rating...' post I said:
286 SR, activation time = 188 seconds
286 QR, activation time = 172 seconds
212 SR, activation time = 97 seconds
212 QR, activation time = 80 seconds
This was with a fire directly under the head, with a fire that grew
from 0 to ~1000
Tom, I guess once we equate what goes out of the tachometer with what
goes into the thermometer, the speed does not change-- the magic of
the second law of thermodynamics! (or, as you put it-- 'Pump affinity').
Quoting Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net:
Brad, we measure rpm as a means of
thanks DJJ8389, that's what I thought. I guess electric motor drive is
more consistent and closer to expectations than engine driven. As far
as Tom's 'adjusting the pressure to rated speed' goes though, with
electric we are at the mercy of the local Power and Light, whereas
with engine
Needs 4-6 heads, since it is a mechanical room, Ord. Haz. I.
Non-accesible or limited access relates to FINISH (i.e., non-walkable
ceilings). Walkable ceilings are called floors the next level up by
A.H.Js.
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George,
78% efficient at overload.. not too shabby!
Do you recall the rated RPM? If I assume a 14 impeller diam. I get 2600 RPM.
I thought about converting the 400 speed reduction to the pump room
temperature rise but said nahhh.. it would be negligible against the
1st law of testosterone,
on 2nd thought (calc), 65-70% is closer, I bet.
78% is 4500 @ 170.
by the way, what does PLD stand for?
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
George,
78% efficient at overload.. not too shabby!
Do you recall the rated RPM? If I assume a 14 impeller diam. I get 2600 RPM.
I thought about converting
words vs numbers, 'true' only at the middle of the aisle
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STINKY gets my vote Ron, as most descriptive for some of the numbers I
have posted (the ones that come from the other end of my mouth). All I
can say is excuse me. Today I will model a sidewall sticking out over
a balcony, with and without overhangs and attic eaves, using different
size
First thing, verify the spelling? If it is pellets, OH2 for the actual
manufacturing area and OH4.5 and double the outside hose for the areas
where they get bunched up awaitng shipment. What are they used for
anyway, sling-shot amo?
Quoting Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com:
Any insight into
EH1 pipe scheduled tree system Todd, 17/32, 286, SSU-- over every sq
ft under roof. What normal Sprinkler Contractor includes special
nozzles to guard against auto-ignition in the hammermill? Talk about
shielded! We all need all the work we can get these days. I'm pretty
sure this has
i look forward to the day when the east coast and the heart of the
country are once again in equillibrium John. I survived a tornado in
Ruskin Heights Missouri in 1957 so i can ONLY imagine the hardship for
you and yours right now.
Quoting John Drucker jdruc...@redbanknj.org:
Great sight
instead of Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, how
about Benchmark to Determine Just how far from Reality the Actual
Situation IS from what Is Written Here-In, Now let's See the Numbers?
Quoting Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com:
Email needs a Like button.
On Sat, Nov 10,
I know of a contractor that sends an inspection fitter out to inspect
the original installation! this fitter's feet DOES leave the floor,
and scours the Standards for total compliance. This way, if the
original installer loses the I.T,M, nothing should come back to bite
them so hard they
the fill line would only have city water behind it, where-as the
metered return would have the fire pump behind it, meaning the metered
return could enter the tank anywhere and still prevail, but there
would be an elevation where the fill would be unable to STUFF more
water in--
on the other hand, a vortex might relieve pressure on the
circumference. i think it was a matter of like chris said-- a vaccumnn
was drawn, if only for an instant, allowing the weight of the ocean of
air above it to CRUSH it.
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
the fill line would only have
no way Bruce-- impossible to overfill or over-pressurize this type of
water storage tank
Quoting Bruce Verhei bver...@comcast.net:
Or the opposite. Tank provided with in adequate atomospheric
ventilation, overfilled, and pressurized.
But I'd much rather hear from someone who has facts
i guess i could run some numbers BEFORE i run my mouth. i think it
imploded as opposed to exploded-- is their any doubt it did one or the
other? i got this weekend off, so i'll give it more thought, including
the doubt.
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
no way Bruce-- impossible to
The tank did not burst. Tornados do not blow the roof off a house,
even though the news might say it did. A slight atmospheric pressure
difference does phenomenal things to structures. A full and
pressurized (with water) tank would be like a reading at churn. So it
either 'shivered' as
scot,
play like there was not one single control valve in the whole
sheebang, calc every head in the airspace above a certain floor area
untill you find the most demanding (balanced at the ONE common point,
then add 'system control valves based on ease of maitenance :). i
think this is
does anybody else find the fact that the floor itself is an obstuction
to pattern development a bit disturbing? at 6 feet between sprinklers
with 7 inch max deflector above the floor, the 'dry spots' are going
to be 2 or 3 feet long!
Quoting rfletc...@aerofire.com:
8.15.6.1 refers to
Perfect examples of the limitations of 13 as a Standard. Question:
Does a 50 sqare ceiling cloud require heads above and below?
Definatley below, but what if the distance from the main ceilinf to
the cloud does not exceed 12, or 22? For some reason, upon reading
the original post I thought
none of us likes gray Chris, least of all we engineering technicians,
since our job is to ensure the intent of you EORs and AHJs is APPLIED
to the physical reality of the field. To do this we need measuring
devices (things with numbers on them). But if your intents do not come
with
Dear @riskmanage,
there is no similar experience: this is a clear case of present/former
drinking buddy vandalism. the report from the municipality is
superfulous (a worker there noticed a spike in usage, shut it down,
drove around town, saw no prob., brought it back up). By this time the
i vote for forgiveness all around, this one time.
Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com:
And the reviewer stated it as though it was fact. This comment has
the potential to harm this persons ability to conduct business and
make a living. If Steve's remedy is not effective, I would
I don't get this, Rons. Are you talking about what NFPA 5000 was
supposed to become 30 years ago? That was also the deadline for
converting to metric. But since the American West was not won 25.4
millimeters by 25.4 millimeters, but inch by inch, and most systems
are installed on Earth, we
not messing with you Ron-- i totally do not understand how words can
better describe the built environment better than numbers, i.e.,
Code=Words, Standard=Numbers. i am terrible with numbers, as you know,
and have warned me about (i was an English major when i dropped out of
college), but
the French invented the System Internationale, and decided MASS would
be their ONE. In English, FORCE is ONE. Since pressure is force/area,
and force is mass times acceleration, and 'most systems are installed
on the Earth', why should sprinks convert?
The beauty of multiples of ten is
who's had enough turkey/ham/brisket and specialty dishes for about a year?
It is what it will be minus what it was.
~~~Brad Casterline, circa 2 months ago~~~
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Hey Vince!
I think the intent of a main drain test is to check the 'status' of
the automatic water supply near the source, at acceptance, and
regulary to catch and unacceptable degradation. I might be wrong
though, since i have only thought that for about 2 minutes so far.
HNY 2 U 2!
Brad
GREAT SCOTT!! i mean, great, scott.
i have to admit i cringed a bit at 5' spacing-- SIX is The Minimum!
but that's when max deflector distance is also in play :)
you have inspired me to post a test question (test because i already
know the answer-- the job went out a couple years ago)
?.light hazard, 20x20 cloud, head listed as Quick Response at 20x20,
centered in the cloud.
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beside myself with...
shame-- i mispelled your good name..
please forgive me scot.
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to realize it takes a village to raise a good system. no single pe,
tech, reviewer, installer, or inspector should think they alone can do
that. since humility is an accurate estimate of one's ability and
importance, i think you hit the nail on the head scot.
(r.i.p., the perished, and
I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to
wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for
Fire Rated is no longer approved.
Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:
Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely
if you
I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home
(snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think
vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though,
otherwise the listing would not distiguish?
Quoting Justin Reid
Well.. each mullioned section would mean vertical, since horizontal
are not allowed. This means the water has to run accross the glass,
not just down. I saw the width of it running down, regardless of
vertical mullions as the max horizontal spacing. I think a case for be
made for not
Generally speaking, sprinkler flows are in the turbulent range. For a
double suction pump, water splits and enters the impeller eye from
both sides. To avoid uneven wear on the bearings, the velocity at each
side should be equal. Witn a vertical ell, this would be the case. For
a
I think the most important factor is Is it an essential facility,
like hospital, fire station, police station, after an event. a
warehouse would not be.
Quoting Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com:
Hmmm, maybe just my West Coast interpretation. I've never done anything
without bracing.
I would rather not leave it up to someone to tell me where it would be
required, what with sink holes swallowing men as they sleep, and as
the reward for a nice drive hitting the fairway (the increase in
fracing and the New Madrid fault, etc). I would rather keep it almost
as simple as
Ralphy,
I made a spreadsheet a while back to work the Darcy-Weisbach friction
loss formula 'by hand'. The kinematic viscosity is a required input,
and is the absolute viscosity divided by the density. I wanted to be
able to vary the temperature too, and since density is a function of
and p.s. regarding your 'hat in hand' feeling:
nothing about any of this is easy, and it never will be
~me~ just now
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
Ralphy,
I made a spreadsheet a while back to work the Darcy-Weisbach
friction loss formula 'by hand'. The kinematic viscosity is a
required
-- imagine parallel steel plates 1 foot apart (top and bottom), with
a fluid in-between-- if the top plate is 1 square foot, the viscosity
of the fluid would be a measure of the force required to slide the top
plate with a velocity of 1 foot per second.
Correction: the top plate does not
Ralphy, I predict you will be sizing an expansion chamber soon. Since
chambers only come in so many sizes, and if you are uneasy about what
the maximum static pressure at the chamber might be, you might
consider this:
maximum system static = ((vec - Delta L) * wp) / vec, where:
vec =
well--so far, a number for Low Heat Release Rate from NFPA 13, if Low
means Light Hazard, and Light Hazard means .1 GPM/SQ FT: 744 kilowatt
per square meter. The inherent safety factor here is that 100% of the
fuel mass is converted to heat, i.e., not one ash or piece of soot
left over
I will try to type ledgeably using numbers that will leave no doubt.
Before a proposed change proving equivalency can be considered,
equivalent has to be established. I had almost lost hope thinking
proving eqivalency meant first meeting a 3X safety factor, and it
still might-- i still
NFPA 13:
1) The Red Book
Escutcheon:
1) Canopy, 2) Beauty Ring
Welded, threaded, female outlet:
1) Pipe-o-let
Grooved coupling:
1) Vic, 2) Groover
Drip Cup:
1) Slobber Cup, 2) Dookie
Does that about cover it, or are there any other names for Velocity
Check, Grooved Stubby, etc?
ED? George?
1) NFPA 13
a) The Red Book b) ?
2) Welded, Threaded, Female Outlet
a) Pipe-O-Let b) ?
3) Escutheon
a) Canopy, b) Beauty Ring c) ?
4) Grooved coupling?
a) ? b) Vic
5) Dookie 6) Velocity Check 7) Grooved Stubby
8) thru 12) ?
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ROSETTE! a new one on me-- i love it
from down south no doubt?
Quoting drm...@swbell.net:
-Original Message- From: bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: sprinkler thesaurus NFPA 13:
1) The Red Book
Escutcheon:
new this week:
rosette, mud leg, stub chuck, jodi blond.
still nothing for velocity check...
Mr. Vinning? Vince?
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good question Scot. I only have my '07 on me but I want to read
parameter #2 as For OH2 and less.
Brad
Quoting å... eurekaig...@gmail.com:
2010 NFPA 13
Was it the intention, to the best of our collective imaginations, that
Section 11.2.3.2.3.1 meant to include *both* LH and OH
Thanks for this Scot! In pondering this I finally discovered what I
believe is the equivalency and reasoning behind QR Reduction: It
reduces the amount of time the fire department has to respond based on
ceiling height. This makes total sense because the lower the ceiling
the faster the
Bruce-
I will go out on a Forum limb here and say regarding control mode of
accidental fires in terms of water application versus burning rate
there is only ONE BUFFER. It is huge, but it is not man-made. Imagine
an abandoned wood shack in the middle of nowhwere, struck by
lightning,
Mike,
Yes there is a straight forward way to get the required section
modulus for a cantalevered trapeze member:
weight (lb) * distance (inches) / 15000. For example, hanging 4 Sch.
10 24 off a joist (say to the right)--
15 feet of water-filled pipe plus 250 lbs = 426.7 lb, * 24 =
10,240.8,
Todd,
I wonder if there is any way the fire department could use thier
pumper and hose to make a loop between two hydrants, and put a venturi
flow meter in the curcuit?
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I gave up on the flow meter bypass idea- the Health Department would
throw a fit. I think JM Elect. has a great idea. The FD has water
measuring/transport know-how and apparatus. On thier way to the flow
test they could do Grass Fire training at the park, then re-fill the
tank with an
good eye! i happen to know it gets pretty hot in Ohio geo. even w/o a
fire. i was lucky to start there, and trained by The Greatest Sprink
Whom Ever Lived (thanks Vince). George, please google brad casterline,
i am the first two, ask me 2 B ur FB friend, please, i would gladly
accept and
"(as much as 4 feet away)?"
If you could get the main with-in 2 feet of the nearest joist you
could stub out a 1x2-0 with a cap and put a lateral brace on it, or do
that to a branch line if available. (See the fairly recent thread on
Longitudinal Braces for CPVC Mains).
Hopefully Ken
Well I finally read the book and now I have to correct myself-
from 13-2016:
9.3.5.5.8 Lateral braces shall be allowed to act as longitudinal
braces if they are within 24 in. (600 mm) of the centerline of the
piping braced longitudinally and the lateral brace is on a pipe of
equal or
I could sit and talk with you about this until the cows come home
Nicky but I don't want Roland to have to 'make that face' at me ever
again. (lol mphelps).
So I'll just say I have the experience (10 yrs) and the software
(exactly as referenced in your bottom link) necessary to address all
Thanks Roland.
This was just an activation comparison based on the calc rules in 13 for EH.
Some rules apply no matter what happens after activation.
I don't consider the rules for EH and Storage to be interchangeable in
this regard. EH sprinkler rules are mostly for SSU and SSP. Storage
From 13-2016:
9.3.5.11.5 All parts and fittings of a brace shall lie in a straight
line to avoid eccentric loadings on fittings and fasteners.
The above means, to me anyway, that it is NOT ok to kick the
longitudinal brace out at an angle as seen in plan view. In this way I
think that is an
Thanks Ken.
I was referring to this:
* The only "angle" which really applies in providing longitudinal
bracing is the measurement from vertical. That angle must be at least
30° and have a maximum of 90° from vertical (which is perfectly
horizontal, and would make the brace parallel to
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
Make that 46% increase.
If we started with 2500 and reduced to 2000 for using 286F (SR)
because of the reasoning, "fewer heads would go off", we would have to
go the other direction for QR. 2500x1.3=3250.
I did a quick activation comparison with 286F SR
I find a web based affinity law calculator and pump performance curve
generator here:
http://fsc-icalc.com
pick More Apps--->Pump Test
thanks,
Brad
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I think there are only a couple of minor things you can do once you
choose the density/area method, by the book Bob.
I reached the limit of my reasoning ability about this a few years ago:
The shape of the LH density/area curve comes mostly from, "what will
a LH Pipe Scheduled system
I'm just curious about "OH1 by the way" Ron. Was that specified? I
like the relation mentioned to Parking Garage, and thought about the
"Contents" being the plastics, fabrics, and other combustible stuff
inside, and the fact that, hopefully, the windows are rolled up tight,
one car, and
the one of the ex navy seal hoisting the G-man inside might be worth
hanging on to-, for instance, "I'll trade you this for your June '75
Rigid Tool calendar girl", etc.
Quoting "rongreenman ." :
I have extras. I have many effigies that need burning but I can do one
1 - 100 of 247 matches
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