[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Steve Leyton]

All:

I was just approved by NFPA Standards Council to represent AFSA on the 420.   I 
do not yet have a copy of the first draft (it’s not available on the 420 web 
page or through free access), but I’ve requested and will look over the fire 
protection systems design criteria, which I believe consists of nothing 
tangible at this moment.

Since my firm is located in SoCal, we’ve done several grows and each one has 
been different.   We’ve designed for an open warehouse with fixed lighting 
mounts that simply go up and down.  We’ve had to contend with a fixture that’s 
about 4’ wide and can be moved up/down/left/right.   We’ve done two-tier grows 
and three-tier grows and we’ve also dealt with the pre-fab grow rooms.   Within 
those grow rooms we’ve seen fixed tables and the sliding ones alluded to in 
this thread.   To say it’s the Wild West out here is an understatement.

Especially in CA, many fire officials have simply hit the HPS button and called 
it a 24’ (three tiers of mature plants) of Class 3 or 4 on racks in the open 
rooms, but I have issues with that since mature plants are 85% water.   The 
growing medium that is fast becoming industry standard is Class A material 
(rock wool), it’s kept wet, and doesn’t require a container, so the commodity 
ISN’T that hazardous.   What complicates things is the presence of the solid 
shelving, and that gets even more complicated by the sliding fixtures that can 
be nested up to four across, which is a 16’ wide solid obstruction in some grow 
rooms, and sometimes there are two or three of those shelving levels.

I don’t have any specific answers right now but I am hopeful that we can point 
the code development conversation down a reality-based path, that being the 
fact that this commodity isn’t all that hazardous (well, if the munchies aren’t 
considered a hazard), and the shelving (which is plastic or polymer composite) 
makes up a very small percentage of the overall volume of the storage space.   
Yes, there are obstructions to sprinkler discharge, but we have that in other 
storage arrays as well, so absent any clearer prescription, it’s hard to argue 
with the shielded fire load approach and use EH2.  But if it’s only a single 
tier, then I’m probably back in the OH2 camp, although as I said before, it 
almost seems like there are no two growing facilities that are alike and the 
system designer is going to have to flex to what the AHJ is requiring and what 
the specific conditions of that particular facility would dictate.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 420 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 8:52 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

The array of tables are about 1000 sqft each

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 10:42 AM, mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com>> wrote:
I’m in the 2019 edition, but sections 9.5.5.3.1.5 and 9.5.5.3.2 may help 
provide guidance.  They do not up the hazard level due to an obstruction in 
place, I like the idea of taking into effect a shielded fire, especially with 
the size of some of these grow ops these days, but there are certain provisions 
that would suggest otherwise….

Spencer Tomlinson, PE
Owner, Fire Protection Engineer

[red logo]
   Cell: 620-955-7293

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with protection 
where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big difference is 
the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have seen below grow 
tables it is a very wet environment with most of the combustibles being water 
and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that would rise to extensive. The 
other argument if below the tables can be considered  a “concealed space”. 
Since there is no NFPA definition, we need to go to a dictionary definition. My 
dictionary say the definition of conceal is “to hide from view”. Nothing that 
talks about physical separation. I think this would meet that criteria.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)




On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe NFPA14 2019

[Steve Leyton]

Do you have a hose connection on the 1st floor landing of the remote standpipe 
stairwell in addition to the one at the exit passageway door?   And is there 
access to occupiable areas on the first floor from the passageway or stairwell?

Obviously, two or more hose connections supplied by a feed main on a single 
floor is a horizontal standpipe by definition, but it would seem to me that in 
this type of egress system that would be redundant or not of value depending on 
where a firefighter would be going with the water after connection to one or 
the other hose connection.

The foregoing does not represent any opinion or interpretation of the standard 
on behalf of NFPA or the NFPA 14 Technical Committee.

[cid:image003.jpg@01D685F2.A4401010]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training



From: Chris Wilson [mailto:chr...@tvfpinc.com]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2024 7:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Standpipe NFPA14 2019


To all,
I have a 4 story building with 2 exit stairways I am installing a class I 
manual wet standpipe combination sprinkler system. The remote stair is on the 
interior of the building and has a rated exit passageway  on the first floor 
that is 73' long. I am placing all hose valves on the main floor landings and 
one a the exit door of the exit passage way.

I am planning on calculating 500 gpm from the remote stand pipe and 250 for the 
2nd standpipe. The exit passage way hose connection will be fed by a  2/12 
lateral pipe fed from the  4" horizontal supply to the remote standpipe as it 
pass by the exit passageway.

Do I need to include an additional 250 gpm in my calcs at the hose valve at the 
exit passageway?

Thanks
Christopher S. Wilson SET
Project Design Manager
Treasure Valley Fire Protection
2731 S. Saturn Way
Boise, ID 83709
Phone:  208-362-1888
Fax: 208-362-2207

please note all TVFP email
addresses have changed
new email below

chr...@tvfpinc.com<mailto:chr...@tvfp.us>


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Seismic data outside the US

[Steve Leyton]

This piqued my interest, so I did a quick search with a couple of different 
phrases and I found… nothing.   However, I did learn that since 1976 Guatemala 
has had several major earthquakes ranging from M6.8-7.5, so it’s ACTIVE.  They 
have several major faults that get pressed on both the Pacific and Caribbean 
sides, 3 active volcanos and seems like it’s generally very nasty, seismically 
speaking.

Absent known/published force factor values, if I was pressed I would look to 
where we’ve historically had similar quakes (i.e. 7.0+) and the two regions I’d 
benchmark are Prince William Sound, Alaska and the San Francisco Bay area.   We 
actually had a 7.2 about 2 hours east of San Diego in 2010 (Calexico) but that 
region isn’t rated as high as others.  I think using the highest value you can 
find from USGS is a solid Plan B.

My opinion only,
Steve L.

From: Ben Young 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2024 9:04 AM
To: 321 via Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Seismic data outside the US

Does anyone know where I can find seismic data, specifically for Guatemala?

I found FM Global 2-1 and its maps give you the 50 year zone, which gives Sd1 
and Sds, but I need Ss for doing the seismic braces.

Don't know how to get from Sd1 and Sds to Ss though, if that's even possible.

Any pointers in the right direction would be appreciated.

Thanks,


Benjamin Young

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Plastisol liquid PVC

[Steve Leyton]

Thanks Todd.  Nine 55’s of 3B on the floor don’t bother me and they keep about 
a thousand lure bodies on hand at any given time.   The finished products are 
bagged and header cards  attached by hand on work tables, a small-scale 
operation.   So I think I can safely call it Group A up to 5’…

SL



From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2024 12:32 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Plastisol liquid PVC

Steve, a quick search found a couple of different MSDS. The older ones showed 
as you said but some newer ones called it a IIIB flammable liquid. I would 
suggest contact the supplier and get the latest MSDS.

Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559



On Apr 12, 2024 at 2:59 PM, mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> 
wrote:
Happy Friday Forumites:

I’m doing an assessment for a client who’s being compelled to upgrade their 
DCDA to an RPDA in an area that is served by a public water system zone that 
has dropped significantly in working pressure since the time the subject 
building was certified for occupancy.   Typically in this scenario, the City of 
San Diego requires that you prove that the residual pressure and flow on the 
calc’ card can still be met after additional pressure loss is taken for the RP 
device, but in this case it cannot.   So we’re looking at it from a 
protect-to-suit standpoint so that the owner and tenants can at least maintain 
ongoing operations.  Ran into a fishing lure manufacturer in one of the suites 
and they make swim baits from Plastisol, which is essentially liquid PVC, 
60-100% depending on application.The fire and ignition info on a standard 
form MSDS states “Not applicable” for the metrics we use to evaluate flammable 
liquid class, so I’m wondering if anyone has experience classifying this liquid 
(there are 9x 55 gallon drums in the suite) and what the flash point and 
commodity classification might be once it’s been baked into fake sardines and 
whatnot?   I’m assuming its Group A since it’s PVC and semi-solid at that point.


[cid:image001.jpg@01DA8CD7.489F2EE0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Plastisol liquid PVC

[Steve Leyton]

Happy Friday Forumites:

I'm doing an assessment for a client who's being compelled to upgrade their 
DCDA to an RPDA in an area that is served by a public water system zone that 
has dropped significantly in working pressure since the time the subject 
building was certified for occupancy.   Typically in this scenario, the City of 
San Diego requires that you prove that the residual pressure and flow on the 
calc' card can still be met after additional pressure loss is taken for the RP 
device, but in this case it cannot.   So we're looking at it from a 
protect-to-suit standpoint so that the owner and tenants can at least maintain 
ongoing operations.  Ran into a fishing lure manufacturer in one of the suites 
and they make swim baits from Plastisol, which is essentially liquid PVC, 
60-100% depending on application.The fire and ignition info on a standard 
form MSDS states "Not applicable" for the metrics we use to evaluate flammable 
liquid class, so I'm wondering if anyone has experience classifying this liquid 
(there are 9x 55 gallon drums in the suite) and what the flash point and 
commodity classification might be once it's been baked into fake sardines and 
whatnot?   I'm assuming its Group A since it's PVC and semi-solid at that point.


[cid:image001.jpg@01DA8CD0.D877B160]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

[Steve Leyton]

It’s the committee’s intent that the 1,000 gpm threshold is applicable only to 
buildings sprinklered per NFPA 13.   There have been numerous fires in 
13R-protected buildings where the structure became involved, many of which were 
roof burn-offs.   Fire service is acutely aware of this nationwide, and any 
member of the residential sprinkler committee will affirm that every cycle, 
there is at least one but usually multiple inputs that propose to add 
sprinklers in attics if not all combustible concealed spaces.   So the language 
in 14 is based on fire incident reporting and other empirical data that inform 
us that it’s not prudent to limit hose stream capacity in 13R-protected 
buildings, so than an added measure (one additional attack stream) of hydraulic 
capability is backed into the standpipe system.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Ken Wagoner 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2024 10:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

I disagree, Jose.

I'm not terribly confused by the omission of a direct reference to 13R in that 
section.  As the text reads "...for buildings that are not sprinklered 
throughout in accordance with NFPA 13."

Wouldn't you agree that 13R is other than NFPA 13?

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
website<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK=1>


On 4/4/2024 10:28 AM, Jose Anibal Castillo wrote:
It appears there's a conflict in understanding, as section 10.6.1.1.6 outlines 
a requirement for a flow rate of 1,250 gallons per minute (gpm) for buildings 
lacking sprinkler coverage, in line with NFPA 13 standards. Yet, 10.6.1.1.6 
omits any mention of NFPA 13R, leading to confusion about the necessity of 
meeting the 1,250 gpm requirement in scenarios where NFPA 13 standards might 
not be mandated by the building code but NFPA 13R. Furthermore, NFPA 14 does 
not discuss provisions for buildings with partial sprinkler protection 
according to NFPA 13R.

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 9:07 AM John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:
Correct - for standpipe calculations purposes, buildings protected with NFPA 
13R systems do not meet the requirements to limit the flow to 1,250 GPM

10.6.1.1.6 in NFPA 14 - 2024

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
301-343-1457


On Apr 3, 2024, at 09:49, Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:

13R buildings are not considered to be fully sprinklered.




On Apr 3, 2024 at 9:45 AM, mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Why would you do 1250 if it’s a fully sprinklered building?

Shawn Foor, SET

FOOR DESIGN, LLC
10208 E 98TH ST
TULSA, OK 74133
P:918-237-1400


On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 08:43 
mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:
Asking this on behalf of Rowe Sprinkler Systems (Temporally Un-Retired)

We have a 4-story modular apartment building sprinklered in accordance with 
NFPA 13R with allowed exceptions, with 4 standpipes. The standpipes are 
connected at the 1st floor level. One each at the ends of the L shaped building 
and two at the approximate mid-point on either side of a 2-hour separation wall 
with self-closing, rated doors in the corridor.
The question is for purposes of calculating the standpipe can these be treated 
as two separate buildings? For example, 250 gpm at the far end of the 4th 
floor, 250 gpm at the far end of the 3rd floor and 250 gpm at the at the 
connecting point of the middle standpipe, for a total of 750 gpm.
Or do we have to calculate the additional standpipes up to 1250 gpm. Available 
water is the issue.


Richard L. Mote CET
Rimrock Design Services, LLC
Middleburg, PA 17842
Mobile 570-541-2685
EMAIL 
rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com<mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>
WEB: www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com<http://www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com/>


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

[Steve Leyton]

If you can do without a fire pump on ANY water based system, that’s better than 
having one.   Lower first and continuing costs, more reliable through 
simplification, it’s a win-win-win.   And knowing how FDs use standpipes, a 
manual system is preferable for any midrise and some FDs might even say they 
prefer or will treat automatics as manual in high-rise buildings as well, so 
long as the overall height is within their pumping capacity.It’s about 
reliability, control and constancy of flow and pressure.

My opinion only,
Steve L.

From: George Medina Jr. 
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2024 12:27 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

Not sure if this would help, I had a similar Apartment (NFPA-13R) situation 
where the Architect specified an Automatic Standpipe system because there was a 
water supply issue. I come to find out that the project was at the very end of 
the local water purveyors district. The property next door was a different 
water purveyor with plenty of water. The A.H.J. & Consultant allowed me to use 
the flow from that hydrant (25' from property) and design as manual standpipe 
system (Saved the cost of Fire Pump and Water Tank). I had to indicate proper 
signage on FDC. Maybe your property is same situation?

George Medina Jr.
Sr. Fire Sprinkler Designer
SINGLETON FIRE PROTECTION INC.
Office: (818) 252-5744
Cell: (323) 906-5701
Business Hours: 9:00am-5:00pm


On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 06:43:54 AM PDT, 
rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com<mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com> 
mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:



Asking this on behalf of Rowe Sprinkler Systems (Temporally Un-Retired)



We have a 4-story modular apartment building sprinklered in accordance with 
NFPA 13R with allowed exceptions, with 4 standpipes. The standpipes are 
connected at the 1st floor level. One each at the ends of the L shaped building 
and two at the approximate mid-point on either side of a 2-hour separation wall 
with self-closing, rated doors in the corridor.

The question is for purposes of calculating the standpipe can these be treated 
as two separate buildings? For example, 250 gpm at the far end of the 4th 
floor, 250 gpm at the far end of the 3rd floor and 250 gpm at the at the 
connecting point of the middle standpipe, for a total of 750 gpm.

Or do we have to calculate the additional standpipes up to 1250 gpm. Available 
water is the issue.





Richard L. Mote CET

Rimrock Design Services, LLC

Middleburg, PA 17842

Mobile 570-541-2685

EMAIL 
rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com<mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>

WEB: www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com<http://www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com>



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

[Steve Leyton]

Yes, a building separation does divide the hydraulic demands to what is 
required on each side of the separation.   See Fig. A.10.6.1.2.3.1 (2024 ed).


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Rick Matsuda 
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2024 8:29 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations

Here’s a thought which may be out way of line.

The 2-hour separation wall in the middle of the building was installed in lieu 
of an additional stairway. So technically there would have been three stairways 
and only three standpipes.

Does NFPA 14 allow you to install one standpipe by the separation and supply 
two hose valves on each level, one on each side of the wall, instead of two 
separate standpipes? If this is allowed then you’ll need to calculate only 
1000-gpm.

During a fire condition, the fire department should be hooking up to only the 
hose valve on the safe non-fire side.
Just my crazy opinion.
Rick Matsuda


On Apr 3, 2024, at 10:06 AM, Tstone52 
mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:

The building code calls for buildings more than 3 stories to have Standpipes. 
13R has nothing to do with it.
G Tim Stone




On Apr 3, 2024 at 9:50 AM, mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
13R buildings are not considered to be fully sprinklered.




On Apr 3, 2024 at 9:45 AM, mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Why would you do 1250 if it’s a fully sprinklered building?

Shawn Foor, SET

FOOR DESIGN, LLC
10208 E 98TH ST
TULSA, OK 74133
P:918-237-1400


On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 08:43 
mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:
Asking this on behalf of Rowe Sprinkler Systems (Temporally Un-Retired)

We have a 4-story modular apartment building sprinklered in accordance with 
NFPA 13R with allowed exceptions, with 4 standpipes. The standpipes are 
connected at the 1st floor level. One each at the ends of the L shaped building 
and two at the approximate mid-point on either side of a 2-hour separation wall 
with self-closing, rated doors in the corridor.
The question is for purposes of calculating the standpipe can these be treated 
as two separate buildings? For example, 250 gpm at the far end of the 4th 
floor, 250 gpm at the far end of the 3rd floor and 250 gpm at the at the 
connecting point of the middle standpipe, for a total of 750 gpm.
Or do we have to calculate the additional standpipes up to 1250 gpm. Available 
water is the issue.


Richard L. Mote CET
Rimrock Design Services, LLC
Middleburg, PA 17842
Mobile 570-541-2685
EMAIL 
rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com<mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com>
WEB: www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com<http://www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com>


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Storage of EVA shoes

[Steve Leyton]

In this case, if the EVA is the driving commodity, then obviously that's your 
bogie, but synthetic shoes are NOT made primarily of that.   If I've got this 
right, EVA (and now polyurethane in higher-performance footbeds) is used in the 
mid-sole and for heel cup padding for the most part.  PU (rigid), various PE 
compounds and nylons are used for uppers.   Gum rubber and petroleum rubber for 
soles.

I would be VERY sure of what you've got holistically...

Steve L.

From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 11:01 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Storage of EVA shoes

That type of plastic is a Group C plastic (poly-vinyl family)  which would be a 
Class III Commodity.

So, I'd base my design off of that.

On an SDS I found it also included water.

"5.1.Extinguishing media Suitable extinguishing media: Water spray (fog), dry 
chemical, CO2, foams"

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:23 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Storage of EVA shoes

Anyone have experience with "plastic" shoes made of EVA 
(Ethylene-Vinyl-Acetate)? From what I've found on google, "suitable 
extinguishing measure" include dry fog, dry chemical, foam, etc. This is a 
warehouse that stores shoes in cardboard boxes on racks. A very small 
percentage are flip-flops made of EVA. Looking for ideas on how best to protect 
the space.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/bvssystemsinc.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!GCqWKp47X-AiFL6zKz7gvB9MTNv_kwyqwkeSGL6AFOcp5hNDp6Km_-IkB_VhKK_Qj6AjhApsIJFNwioZFa-Ts-MW$>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935




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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Storage of EVA shoes

[Steve Leyton]

Most "lifestyle" shoes are made mostly of plastic and rubber compounds.  We've 
had eagle-eyed AHJ's in CA throwing the retail store plastic storage design 
requirements at us for displays that go higher than 5'.

Steve L.

From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 10:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Storage of EVA shoes

Anyone have experience with "plastic" shoes made of EVA 
(Ethylene-Vinyl-Acetate)? From what I've found on google, "suitable 
extinguishing measure" include dry fog, dry chemical, foam, etc. This is a 
warehouse that stores shoes in cardboard boxes on racks. A very small 
percentage are flip-flops made of EVA. Looking for ideas on how best to protect 
the space.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Main floor hose valve location.

[Steve Leyton]

The building code and NFPA 14 both state that where required, standpipe hose 
connections shall be installed on every floor level landing of every required 
exit stair.  There are obviously additional considerations, such as whether the 
local FD prefers connections on intermediate landings instead of floor level, 
or if a stair goes to the roof or not.  In this case, you’ve ID’d a condition 
where there’s no access to the first floor from the stairs (if I’m 
understanding correctly), so there’s not any value to the FD if valves are 
located there.

Some FD’s will waive hose connections on the level of apparatus access as they 
can pull attack lines directly into the building from their pumper.   Some FD’s 
may want a valve or valves in another location on that ground floor.   Bottom 
line is (broken record here) that you should consult with the responding FD to 
place the valve or valves in a location that they approve and for which they 
can pre-plan and ultimately, use the valve as safely and effectively as 
possible.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2024 7:40 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Main floor hose valve location.

I am working on a small 4 story building where we are required to install a 
standpipe (as well as a full 13 sprinkler system). The first floor consists of 
a conference area, office space and various mechanical and storage rooms. The 
conference space and office area have direct access to the outside, but there 
is no communicating space between them. The 2 stairways lead to an outside 
access only. The elevator lobby has an outside door but does not connect to the 
stairways or conference and office spaces. The total footprint of the building 
is less than 3000 sqft.

Where do you put the hose valve on the 1st floor?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

[Steve Leyton]

Of a separate riser ROOM for backflow, etc.   Definitely not saying that you 
need a chase within the stair shaft, just that you’re not allowed to use the 
under-landing space for a “riser room”.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:48 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

I’ve never seen a requirement for a 1 or 2-hr enclosure of a riser in a stair.  
The stair towers I’ve encountered are typically rated 2-hrs and the combination 
sprinkler/standpipe riser located under the first landing or off to the unused 
side of the ground level has never been rejected by an AHJ.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 4:30 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

Right, as long as your “riser/backflow room” is separated from the rest of the 
stair shaft.   And it might have to be 2-hour rated, not just 1-hour.

To the question of the sprinkler riser, there isn’t any restriction in the 
code, except for the obvious provisions for fire-stopping penetrations.

Steve L.

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:22 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

We do backflows and risers in stairs all the time, typically below the 
intermediate landing, as long as it’s a minimum 1 hour construction then it has 
been ok with most jurisdictions. Remember standpipes and floor controls are 
typically in stairs as a standard.

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01DA7F85.70568FF0]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2farcherconstruction.com*2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1__;JSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!AKDEQrf6NuN-W7D9y4dezAtAkbuSU8nl5s0ZAFQ7pDJyr1jiHYyoFHcF4_6Yz8odTqlPaH82RnQG9j3tHph3goA$>

From: Jeff Werre mailto:jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:09 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Riser in a rated stair enclosure

Does code allow a sprinkler riser to be installed in a rated stairwell?

I cannot find anything that prohibits it, but would like others opinions 
(experiences).

Thank you-

Jeff Werre, CFM
Fire Plan Review and Inspection Specialist

Development Services
City of Goodyear, Arizona
1900 North Civic Square
Goodyear, AZ 85395

c 602 316-0704
 w 
goodyearaz.gov<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.goodyearaz.gov*2f=E,1,HWheNqpd4bMAObWDA1Pz4jKGCAJR-thfNkyG-V6ubIPnRmE78JXq5nU1kLB5Uv0b6yAs3DnR0fq9Cb648VwhZkjzd0drubjF-G192TGVad51Zbnsm7L6vOrmJg,,=1__;JSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!AKDEQrf6NuN-W7D9y4dezAtAkbuSU8nl5s0ZAFQ7pDJyr1jiHYyoFHcF4_6Yz8odTqlPaH82RnQG9j3tVFDFq8g$>
e jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov<mailto:jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov>





From: Ken Wagoner 
mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 1:17 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 14 2019 Hose Connection on the Roof

⚠ This email arrived from an external source - Please exercise caution when 
opening any attachments or clicking on links

Completely agree with you John.

Considering that I work with two adjacent agencies, each of which uses a 
different hose thread.  One uses National Standard Thread, the other National 
Hose Thread.  It's difficult to explain to contractors that identification of 
the hose threads to be supplied on private fire hydrants or hose valves can be 
as critical as it gets.

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
website<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com*2f=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

[Steve Leyton]

Right, as long as your “riser/backflow room” is separated from the rest of the 
stair shaft.   And it might have to be 2-hour rated, not just 1-hour.

To the question of the sprinkler riser, there isn’t any restriction in the 
code, except for the obvious provisions for fire-stopping penetrations.

Steve L.

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:22 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Riser in a rated stair enclosure

We do backflows and risers in stairs all the time, typically below the 
intermediate landing, as long as it’s a minimum 1 hour construction then it has 
been ok with most jurisdictions. Remember standpipes and floor controls are 
typically in stairs as a standard.

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01DA7F81.A85E1DE0]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>

From: Jeff Werre mailto:jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 1:09 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Riser in a rated stair enclosure

Does code allow a sprinkler riser to be installed in a rated stairwell?

I cannot find anything that prohibits it, but would like others opinions 
(experiences).

Thank you-

Jeff Werre, CFM
Fire Plan Review and Inspection Specialist

Development Services
City of Goodyear, Arizona
1900 North Civic Square
Goodyear, AZ 85395

c 602 316-0704
 w 
goodyearaz.gov<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.goodyearaz.gov%2f=E,1,HWheNqpd4bMAObWDA1Pz4jKGCAJR-thfNkyG-V6ubIPnRmE78JXq5nU1kLB5Uv0b6yAs3DnR0fq9Cb648VwhZkjzd0drubjF-G192TGVad51Zbnsm7L6vOrmJg,,=1>
e jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov<mailto:jeff.we...@goodyearaz.gov>





From: Ken Wagoner 
mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 1:17 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 14 2019 Hose Connection on the Roof

⚠ This email arrived from an external source - Please exercise caution when 
opening any attachments or clicking on links

Completely agree with you John.

Considering that I work with two adjacent agencies, each of which uses a 
different hose thread.  One uses National Standard Thread, the other National 
Hose Thread.  It's difficult to explain to contractors that identification of 
the hose threads to be supplied on private fire hydrants or hose valves can be 
as critical as it gets.

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
website<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK=1>


On 2/21/2024 1:13 PM, John Denhardt wrote:
Rick’s and Steve’s comments are spot on. Give the fire department what they 
need/want. Do not install something that no one will ever use in an emergency 
condition.

John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
301-343-1457

On Feb 21, 2024, at 13:30, Rick Matsuda 
<mailto:rick26...@gmail.com> wrote:

Steve’s guidance is the best.
When it comes to hose valves and standpipe requirements, always verify with the 
AHJ to find out what they want.
Rick

On Feb 21, 2024, at 12:09 PM, Steve Leyton 
<mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> wrote:

To Rick’s comments:

Concur, and also offer that while the standard doesn’t require a valve where 
there is no roof access, I am aware of numerous AHJ’s who do.   The stated 
intent of the rooftop connection(s) is to enable forward flow testing of the 
system.   However – and this goes to my mantra of many years now – it is 
incumbent on the designer to verify with the serving FD is they require roof 
connections that they may use for firefighting.   I have been made aware of 
several fire incidents that used roof connection hose streams  and I am also 
aware of fireground strategies that encompass these connections.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Steve L.



From: Rick Matsuda <mailto:rick26...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 9:51 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 14 2019 Hose Connection on the Roof

[Sprinklerforum] Re: EQB and Zone Of Influence

[Steve Leyton]

Where longitudinal bracing is provided for branch lines, the lateral bracing 
ZOI of grid mains does not have to include those lines per §9.3.5.9.6 (2016 
edition).

Steve L.

From: George Medina Jr. 
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 2:55 PM
To: Discussion List On Issues Relating To Automatic Fire Sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] EQB and Zone Of Influence

I have a job where I have grid system where there is 6" grid mains and 2½" grid 
lines. In order to lessen the weight in the zone of influence of  the 6" grid 
mains I have included additional longitudinal bracing on the 2½" grid lines. Is 
it acceptable to exclude the Zone of Influence of the Longitudinally braced 2½" 
Grid lines from the Zone Of Influence of the 6" Grid Mains? Does NFPA-13 
address this scenario?


Thank You,
George Medina Jr.
Sr. Fire Sprinkler Designer
SINGLETON FIRE PROTECTION INC.
Office: (818) 252-5744
Cell: (323) 906-5701
Business Hours: 9:00am-5:00pm

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Gang drain crossing seismic joint

[Steve Leyton]

Yeah, I coulda/shoulda just called Ken, but it’s for the good of the order, 
right?

SL

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 2:09 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Gang drain crossing seismic joint

Well summed up Ken..

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01DA7619.97331BE0]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>

From: Ken Wagoner 
mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 2:07 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Gang drain crossing seismic joint

Steve,

three points here.

  *   §18.4.1 requires clearance for a drain extending through a wall, floor, 
platform, foundations.

  *   §18.5.1.6 omits any bracing requirements for drain piping downstream of 
the drain valve.

  *   It isn't a branch line so restraint is not required. §18.6.4

All references from the 2022 edition of -13.

So my thought is that if you have the required clearance when your piping 
crosses the seismic joint, nothing further is needed.

This is my opinion only.
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
website<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK=1>

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued 
pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of 
the author and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA 
or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither 
intended, nor should it be relied upon, to provide professional consultation or 
services. It should be noted that the above is my opinion as a member of the 
NFPA Automatic Sprinkler System Hanging and Bracing Committee and the Hanging 
and Bracing for Fire Suppression Systems Committee in accordance with the NFPA 
Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be 
considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA or its 
Committees


On 3/14/2024 2:35 PM, Steve Leyton wrote:
All (especially Californicators):

We have to cross a seismic joint with the piping that supplies a combination 
standpipe in a mid-rise building (no PRV’s to test).   As a combo, there’s a 
collection pipe for sectional test and drain discharge, and for reasons 
peculiar to this building, our first choice is to bring the gang drain back to 
the riser room, as it’s the only place with a SS trap in the basement.   We’re 
trying to decide whether a seismic joint is required of the drain pipe, which 
is normally dry and never under system pressure in any case.   I reckon I 
should know this, but I don’t think we’ve had to address this condition in 
forever, maybe never.


[cid:image002.jpg@01DA7619.97331BE0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.protectiondesign.com%2f=E,1,oeBy0qhzYU9iI9fuhud9CT-BY8AEDWVkYf20OsfIbt7-fe5gGmgLH0dWPU7wVK9CDK90ENWZtafNL1qQpofRh9TK4ukNtBCGScw6zCq-_ngl0vpG=1>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training





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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Gang drain crossing seismic joint

[Steve Leyton]

No, and that's exactly my reasoning too.   I should have said in my post that 
I'm not 100% certain because it's being submitted to a preposterously fickly 
AHJ and they're historically very subjective, but my personal opinion is that 
it's not required for the reason that you mention.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 1:03 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Gang drain crossing seismic joint

If the section that crossed the expansion joint were to be torn apart would it 
have any functional effect on the bldg. sprinkler or standpipe systems?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 3:35 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Gang drain crossing seismic joint

All (especially Californicators):

We have to cross a seismic joint with the piping that supplies a combination 
standpipe in a mid-rise building (no PRV's to test).   As a combo, there's a 
collection pipe for sectional test and drain discharge, and for reasons 
peculiar to this building, our first choice is to bring the gang drain back to 
the riser room, as it's the only place with a SS trap in the basement.   We're 
trying to decide whether a seismic joint is required of the drain pipe, which 
is normally dry and never under system pressure in any case.   I reckon I 
should know this, but I don't think we've had to address this condition in 
forever, maybe never.


[cid:image001.jpg@01DA7612.394A7200]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
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[Sprinklerforum] Gang drain crossing seismic joint

[Steve Leyton]

All (especially Californicators):

We have to cross a seismic joint with the piping that supplies a combination 
standpipe in a mid-rise building (no PRV's to test).   As a combo, there's a 
collection pipe for sectional test and drain discharge, and for reasons 
peculiar to this building, our first choice is to bring the gang drain back to 
the riser room, as it's the only place with a SS trap in the basement.   We're 
trying to decide whether a seismic joint is required of the drain pipe, which 
is normally dry and never under system pressure in any case.   I reckon I 
should know this, but I don't think we've had to address this condition in 
forever, maybe never.


[cid:image001.jpg@01DA7606.5400C970]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: FDC for Standpipe

[Steve Leyton]

That’s hydraulics.  If you can deliver the demand with no more inlet pressure 
than the FD is willing to accept, I think you can use 4” for the FDC.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
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Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Dewayne Martinez 
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 9:30 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Cc: Dewayne Martinez 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: FDC for Standpipe

Would a 5”x4” Storz be 750gpm because of the Storz connection size or 500gpm 
because of the pipe?

From: John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2024 10:39 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: FDC for Standpipe

Here is the reference:
NFPA 14 - 2024
10.7.3.1.1

Where a 4 in. (100 mm) inlet is used, the assumed flow per inlet shall be 500 
gpm (1900 L/min).
10.7.3.1.2

Where a 5 in. (125 mm) inlet is used, the assumed flow per inlet shall be 750 
gpm (2850 L/min).

The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation 
in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is 
provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this 
opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official 
position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.AFSA cannot 
provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should 
therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.

Thanks,
John

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American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:
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On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 11:25 AM John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:
To all - review NFPA 14 -2024 as it has new requirements for 4" and 5" storz 
connections.
4" is limited to 500 GPM per connection
5" is limited to 750 GPM per connection

Unfortunately, I'm at a conference where my internet connection is very 
limited, otherwise I would give you a section reference.


The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation 
in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is 
provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this 
opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official 
position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.AFSA cannot 
provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should 
therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.

Thanks,
John

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Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:
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214-349-5965 ext 121
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On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 11:09 AM Ken Wagoner 
mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com>> wrote:
Brian,

Yes, I have been required to provide such a connection in the past.  It has 
been rare, and it was a gorilla sized high rise building.

For me arguing with the AHJ over this seemed pointless.

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Manual Wet Standpipe Inspection

[Steve Mackinnon]

Good morning,

We’ve found it all depends on the district and individual AHJ…

We do a number of manual wet/dry standpipes in our area and each one comes with 
it’s own challenges.

One of my colleagues just invested in a used fire truck figuring the best 
course of action is to be over prepared than under.

Another company gives “donations” to the local Fire Dept. to come and flow the 
standpipe at test time (this can get expensive over time).

But we always provide a hydraulic calculation for the required flow beforehand.

I found most Fire Pump operators start with 90-100 psi and increase by 10 psi 
until we reach the desired flow and pressure on the roof.

From: Chris Dorn 
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 6:53 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Manual Wet Standpipe Inspection

We have been required to perform a flow test using the city fire truck and the 
top two hose valves. I only did it once but the firemen seemed excited to do 
it. I have been required to run some quick calculations to tell them what 
pressure the pumper needed to provide at the FDC to give them the pressure they 
wanted at the top of a standpipe pretty much every one we do.

Christopher Dorn
Dorn Fire Protection LLC
4132 Dumont Street #4
Cincinnati, Ohio 45226
(513) 295-2499


On Mar 6, 2024, at 5:06 PM, Anthony Carrizosa 
mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>> wrote:

Derik,
NFPA 25 states flow tests 6.3.1 Shall be conducted every 5 years on all 
automatic standpipe systems.. your system is not automatic but manual. Since it 
is under water pressure at all times no need for a hydro test either.

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593

https://archerconstruction.com

From: Derik Rich mailto:dr...@certfs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 1:53 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Manual Wet Standpipe Inspection

Looking for some guidance on flow testing a manual wet standpipe. I have been 
told; A. You don’t have to flow test. B. Perform flow test and calculate 
assistance needed. C. You need to do a proper test with a pumper truck. The 
only thing I can find in 25 is that no hydrostatic test is required on manual 
wet. Can anybody steer me in the right direction? Thanks,


Derik Rich
Estimator


O:
801-281-0746
C:
801-231-6375
A:
1015 S. 3600 W. SLC, UT 84104
E:
dr...@certfs.com












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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Apartment used as an office

[Steve Leyton]

I have seen “live/work” loft spaces that were permitted for hybrid residential 
space that were modified and leased to commercial businesses such as a coffee 
shop, tailor shop and café.   These were conceived as “community amenities” by 
the developer and when they got popped by the AHJ, they sought my services as a 
consultant to help them get out of the situation.  Like you, I passed and am 
not sure how it resolved.

Steve L.

From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2024 8:56 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Apartment used as an office

I was in an apartment building yesterday and the apartment on the 3rd floor had 
been rented and was being used as an office. I believe the system design is 
NFPA 13R (not sure but it looks like it). My guess this is under the radar of 
the local authorities. Has anyone else run into this and how have you dealt 
with it?

For this and other reasons, I said I want nothing to do with this place. 
Therefore, this is a just rhetorical question.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 13R water supply question

[Steve Leyton]

Permit application, approval and inspection procedures vary from state to 
state, county to county, city to city and to my knowledge, the NFPA code set is 
mute regarding best practices for this exercise.  IBC defines the building and 
fire officials and establishes jurisdictional authority but again, codes are 
adopted at the state level, so I can tell you a little bit about the California 
Code of Regulations, but nothing about what may or may not be applicable in 
your markets.

Keep in mind that 3rd party plan review and inspection services are not 
autonomous.   Usually - and I emphasize that word because I'm sure there are 
exceptions by my experience in CA  has been - the 3rd party is charged with 
enforcing the AHJ's standing policies.   In other words, they don't get to just 
say, "redundant permit required" unless that policy is already codified by the 
local building department, or through a state amendment during the code 
adoption process.   Your questions and concerns will probably be better and 
more productively expressed directly to the building official/department that 
NIC is contracted with.

My opinion only,
Steve L.

From: Chris Dorn 
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 12:40 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 13R water supply question

I have a 13R sprinkler system whose water supply is a 2" combination 
domestic/fire line run from the city main into the mechanical room. The plumber 
installed the line and pulled the proper permits for the installation of that 
domestic line. The plumber left a 2" outlet left inside of the building as a 
fire supply. The local building department uses an outside corporation to 
review and handle permits / inspections called NIC or National Inspection 
Corporation. NIC is requiring that we as the fire protection contractor are 
also required to apply and pull a permit and perform all tests required for a 
fire line on the 2" domestic service that was installed. I am looking for 
backup to argue this requirement as it seems redundant and unnecessary.  I 
cannot find where this is specifically addressed either in NFPA codes or the 
IBC. Does anyone have any information that may be applicable to this situation?
Thank you, Chris

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Modified 13D System per FD

[Steve Leyton]

Sure Bob.

Bruce – what do you think the odds are?   Not used to being the favorite…  is 
this straight-up or a parimutuel pool?

SL

From: bcap...@firesprinkler.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 5:52 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' 
; Steve Leyton 

Subject: RE: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Modified 13D System per FD

I am not sure, but I don’t believe I’ve ever seen rules related to wagering on 
the forum.  I do not believe it would be appropriate however, in the unlikely 
event of “off-track” betting on the outcome of a code application, the house 
should get 10%.  No vig.


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President
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From: BRUCE VERHEI mailto:bver...@comcast.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 2:54 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>;
 Steve Leyton mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Modified 13D System per FD

Unfortunately I assume we can’t arrange wagers on this forum. I’d give odds 
Steve L is correct on more than one of his points.
One more reason to follow the no installation prior to plans review practice. 
I’ve gone round and round more than once on 13-D that just don’t work 
hydraulically. Knowing there’s not enough margin to spend hours yakking with 
the plan reviewer on these jobs I finally learned to ask ‘Is this already 
installed?’ Uh, yeah. I was hoping to pick up permit today, for inspection 
tomorrow. You gotta approve it the GC is riding me.

i wonder if the u/g is sized adequately.

Best.

Bruce V.
On 02/20/2024 2:20 PM PST Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:


If you have a set-back deficiency and the project was permitted with the 
upgraded sprinkler system as a condition of approval, it’s perfectly legit.   
Before you designed the system, did the owner or their agent inform you that 
there were alternative means and methods required?I would first ask them, 
because if the situation is what LACFD informed you that it is, then the owner 
has almost certainly been informed of these upgrades in writing and the 
information wasn’t conveyed to the construction team.   Did you look at the 
code analysis in the plans to see if it’s there?   Are you the contractor or a 
contract designer?If you’re a 3rd party, did the contractor bid off of 
plans that may include this information and  they’re the ones that didn’t 
convey to you?

Steve L.




From: Owen Evans mailto:firs...@aol.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:39 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Modified 13D System per FD

I designed a standard 13D system for a new SFR in Hermosa Beach Ca.. The city 
of Hermosa Beach contracts with LA County for their fire protection.

I received corrections requiring a 4 head calculation, heads in all 
compartments and attic, and under all exterior overhangs. They call it a 
modified 13D system.

I spoke with the plans examiner and he stated this is an LA country requirement 
with approval from the city of Hermosa Beach. I asked for the amendment that 
allows this “modified 13D” system. He stated that because the SFR encroaches 
into the 5’ setback,  it’s an alternate means and method, no amendment 
required. This is going to result in a significant cost increase.

Is this situation legit?

Owen Evans




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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Modified 13D System per FD

[Steve Leyton]

If you have a set-back deficiency and the project was permitted with the 
upgraded sprinkler system as a condition of approval, it’s perfectly legit.   
Before you designed the system, did the owner or their agent inform you that 
there were alternative means and methods required?I would first ask them, 
because if the situation is what LACFD informed you that it is, then the owner 
has almost certainly been informed of these upgrades in writing and the 
information wasn’t conveyed to the construction team.   Did you look at the 
code analysis in the plans to see if it’s there?   Are you the contractor or a 
contract designer?If you’re a 3rd party, did the contractor bid off of 
plans that may include this information and  they’re the ones that didn’t 
convey to you?

Steve L.




From: Owen Evans 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Modified 13D System per FD

I designed a standard 13D system for a new SFR in Hermosa Beach Ca.. The city 
of Hermosa Beach contracts with LA County for their fire protection.

I received corrections requiring a 4 head calculation, heads in all 
compartments and attic, and under all exterior overhangs. They call it a 
modified 13D system.

I spoke with the plans examiner and he stated this is an LA country requirement 
with approval from the city of Hermosa Beach. I asked for the amendment that 
allows this “modified 13D” system. He stated that because the SFR encroaches 
into the 5’ setback,  it’s an alternate means and method, no amendment 
required. This is going to result in a significant cost increase.

Is this situation legit?

Owen Evans




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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Hose Valves in Townhome Apartments

[Steve Leyton]

Huh?   Are they required by…  a loose cannon EOR?   The AHJ?  Codes and 
standards?

James – how many stories is this building?  Are these two-story apartments 
within a multi-story building that’s taller than two stories?   Not that it 
matters, but what floor is the main entry for these units?   Here’s the thing – 
NFPA 14 and the IBC codes (also state codes based on IBC, such as California) 
require a standpipe hose connection on each level (main or intermediate) of 
every required exit stair.   Interior stairs within multi-story dwelling units 
(even in a multi-story building) are not exit stairs as defined by the building 
code.   So if the context of the question is whether these valves are required 
by code, the answer is unconditionally NO.

Assuming the AHJ agrees with that take (implied by their approval), then simply 
capitulating to this EOR is going to eff up the dwelling units big time.   Is 
this person also requiring the 44” egress pathway clearance on those stairs?
THAT’S a question that should grind their gears to a stop, because you cannot 
safely (or aesthetically) locate a standpipe hose connection in a 36-42” wide 
condo stairwell.   Also ask this oracle of fire protection systems how he/she 
would prescribe piping to these valves – are the units stacked so that one 
riser could serve a valve per unit or are they horizontally arrayed and the 
valves supplied by branch lines?   Keeping in mind that if two or more are 
supplied by a horizontal pipe then it becomes a horizontal standpipe?  No 
matter the configuration, how does the EOR propose that the standpipe serving 
these connections be protected by construction equal to what’s required for the 
exit stairway if the stairways in question aren’t fire rated?  In a midrise 
building the stair shafts have to be 2-hour but dwelling unit envelopes are 
only 1-hour?   Go ahead and ask the GC to craft THAT RFI:  “Please confirm that 
two-story townhome units must be 2-hour construction to protect standpipe(s).”

Just giving in because they offer to pay you is going to open a Pandora’s Box 
of issues if the building and fire officials know the nuances of IBC 905 and 
NFPA 14.I would write a summary of the holes in this groundless opinion and 
then inform the GC and owner that the impact of this additive change is delay, 
cost and potentially impeachment of the approved building construction type.   
That should turn the conversation.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the 
standard.  It also reflects that I’m getting pretty sick and tired of the 
self-annointed experts in our industry that don’t know what they’re talking 
about.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training









From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 5:58 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Hose Valves in Townhome Apartments

Yes. The EOR said so after the fact.. Price the change, add the valves.

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Manager – Southwest Region
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
3508 Hwy. 557
West Monroe, LA. 71292
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>


From: James Litvak mailto:jameslit...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 7:55 AM
To: AFSA Sprinkler Forum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Hose Valves in Townhome Apartments

Caution:  This email originated from outside of the organization.  DO NOT click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender.

I am designing an NFPA 13 mid-rise apartment building that includes three 
townhome-style two-floor apartments. The EOR put a note on the FP plans to 
locate a hose valve on each floor of those units "AS REQUIRED." I didn't put 
them on my plans because I have never seen them required in similar units in 
other buildings. The EOR's review comments came back saying "Fire Protection 
permit review indicated hose valves required in 2-story units." I have 
requested the fire protection permit review comments and was told by the GC it 
is unlikely we'll receive them, and that I should just include those valves. My 
plans were approved by the AHJ without those valves. It is the EOR now refusing 
to ac

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

[Steve Leyton]

You’re right, the JP cannot be supplied from or downstream of the controller, I 
didn’t mean to imply you can as that’s all spelled out in Article 695.3.  But 
you can definitely supply it with the same dedicated circuit as the main pump 
if you tap ahead of the controller.   The question on the table is whether a 
separate circuit of a different current is appropriate or necessary since Brian 
included a JP rated for the same current as the FP.   So the electrician’s 
response that he “can’t” provide a conforming power supply that matches the JP 
is gibberish, assuming there’s a 460/3 ph in the pump room.

Steve L.


From: AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 2:18 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

The way I understood it, the NEC does not permit using the fire pump control 
panel as a junction box. Any tap to the electrical power conductors leading 
into the fire pump control panel used for powering the jockey pump is using the 
control panel as a junction box.


On Jan 19, 2024, at 11:42 AM, Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

This industry can be a roller coaster of challenges and rewards, and also 
brings those occasional scenarios that can (perhaps should) render you 
speechless.   For me, some of the most entertaining moments have been when 
someone stridently insists that we “can’t” do something that’s been a common, 
even standard practice for years…

Steve L.

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 5:06 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

Matt-
We’ve asked that same question and the electrician insist he can’t do that.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.

From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com> 
mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 8:03 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

Can they not just piggy-back from the Main Fire Pump panel?

I had always thought with the Fire Pump power being SUSE rated, that that is 
what they have always done.
Hence the reason the Jockey Pump ratings always matched the Fire Pumps.

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Manager – Southwest Region
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
3508 Hwy. 557
West Monroe, LA. 71292
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>


From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 6:59 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Phase Converter

Caution:  This email originated from outside of the organization.  DO NOT click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender.

We have a job with a fire pump. Electrician ran 3-phase/460v for the main pump 
but not for the jockey pump. They’re asking if using a phase converter is an 
option instead of ordering a single-phase jockey pump. Anyone have experience 
with this?

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

[Steve Leyton]

This industry can be a roller coaster of challenges and rewards, and also 
brings those occasional scenarios that can (perhaps should) render you 
speechless.   For me, some of the most entertaining moments have been when 
someone stridently insists that we "can't" do something that's been a common, 
even standard practice for years...

Steve L.

From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 5:06 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

Matt-
We've asked that same question and the electrician insist he can't do that.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.

From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com> 
mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 8:03 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Phase Converter

Can they not just piggy-back from the Main Fire Pump panel?

I had always thought with the Fire Pump power being SUSE rated, that that is 
what they have always done.
Hence the reason the Jockey Pump ratings always matched the Fire Pumps.

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Manager - Southwest Region
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
3508 Hwy. 557
West Monroe, LA. 71292
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>


From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2024 6:59 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Phase Converter

Caution:  This email originated from outside of the organization.  DO NOT click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender.

We have a job with a fire pump. Electrician ran 3-phase/460v for the main pump 
but not for the jockey pump. They're asking if using a phase converter is an 
option instead of ordering a single-phase jockey pump. Anyone have experience 
with this?

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Non Sprinklered Building Retrofit in California

[Steve Leyton]

What Craig said and more.   The rule in CA is that a building must be 
maintained in accordance with codes and standards in effect when it was first 
permitted for occupancy.   If this is an office building and was first 
certified for B Occupancy, and has been continuously used for Group B, and the 
new tenancy is classified as Group B, then a retrofit is not required by code, 
unless there are extenuating circumstances.  F’rinstance, does the mezzanine 
meet travel distance requirements?

But it sounds like you’re describing a single tenant in a building that is 
20,000 sq. ft. including said office/mezz, which leaves 13,000 sq. ft. of… 
storage perhaps?If the building is an unsprinklered S-1, it may still be 
grandfathered if the new tenant is S-1.   But if it’s Group F (as Craig alluded 
to), and they want to store in the high-bay portion, then it’s a change of use 
and the building official is specifically empowered by CBC to throw the new 
book at it.   And since you’re in LACFD jurisdiction, there may very well be a 
bureau policy regarding changes of tenancy, use, etc.

The determination of whether a permit requires sprinklers shouldn’t be in your 
scope unless you’ve been tasked with it as the sprinkler contractor.   The 
architect and owner need to determine whether a retrofit provision in the code 
is applicable to this project prior to submission for approval of the general 
building permit.

Steve L.

From: George Medina Jr. 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2024 10:11 AM
To: Discussion List On Issues Relating To Automatic Fire Sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Non Sprinklered Building Retrofit in California

There is a 20,000 sq. ft. building with 7,000 sq. ft. of office & mezzanine 
(About 17' high).
The building is not sprinklered and vacant. New tenant (Our Client) wants to 
occupy with the same occupancy (no change in occupancy). Would they need to put 
sprinklers? It is located in Marina Del Ray (LA County). Where would it address 
it in the 2022 CBC or CFC, or any LA County regulations?

Thanks for any Inputs,

George Medina Jr.
Sr. Fire Sprinkler Designer
SINGLETON FIRE PROTECTION INC.


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA-14 Hose Flow

[Steve Leyton]

Why are you putting standpipes in a single story building?Not required by 
code unless you get into some extreme egress pathway distance scenarios...

Steve L.

From: Luis Perea 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2024 9:24 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] NFPA-14 Hose Flow

Hi everyone

According to NFPA-14 if the building exceed 80,000ft2 i must add another stand 
pipe with 500gpm and in case of a third sytand pipe add another 250 (for 
unsprinklered buildings).
Is this just for vertcial buildings to consider standpipes on each level? Or, 
if i have a 1 floor building but exceeding the 80,000ft2 i must have 2 stand 
pipes on the same floor considering the floor area is 150,000ft2?

[cid:image001.png@01DA49F1.C9D7F3D0]

Thanks.

[cid:image002.png@01DA49F1.C9D7F3D0]


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection

[Steve Leyton]

My bad - to be clear, I was talking about the space below the double layer 
envelope on the bottom chords, as I misread the question. In the so-called 
plenum space between top and bottom chords, it's definitely a combustible 
concealed space.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Kevin Hall 
Date: 1/16/24 10:21 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler 
Protection

I think it is still combustible within the concealed space as the top and 
bottom chords are solid wood members... might still be able to omit sprinklers 
if one of the scenarios in the installation chapter applies.

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE
Sr. Manager, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5971
w:  firesprinkler.org<http://firesprinkler.org/>

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straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure your men and 
women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. Click 
here<https://www.firesprinkler.org/sprinkler-apprentice-training/> to learn 
more and enroll.


On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 1:15 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
I believe that two layers of the Type X make the space between the presumably 
non-combustible ceiling and the sheetrock a non-combustible concealed space.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: "George Medina Jr." 
mailto:los_amigos_b...@yahoo.com>>
Date: 1/16/24 10:12 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion List On Issues Relating To Automatic Fire Sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection

There is a one hour floor assembly which consist of 22" Red-S joist (Wood 
Chords with Tube Bars) with 2 layers of type x gypsum board on channels below 
joist. Could it be considered limited combustible construction inside the bar 
joist? Or am I just grasping for straws, and it needs sprinklers.

Thanks For any replies,

George Medina Jr.


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection

[Steve Leyton]

I believe that two layers of the Type X make the space between the presumably 
non-combustible ceiling and the sheetrock a non-combustible concealed space.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: "George Medina Jr." 
Date: 1/16/24 10:12 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion List On Issues Relating To Automatic Fire Sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Concealed Spaces Not Requiring Sprinkler Protection

There is a one hour floor assembly which consist of 22" Red-S joist (Wood 
Chords with Tube Bars) with 2 layers of type x gypsum board on channels below 
joist. Could it be considered limited combustible construction inside the bar 
joist? Or am I just grasping for straws, and it needs sprinklers.

Thanks For any replies,

George Medina Jr.


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Backflow In Stairwell

[Steve Leyton]

Are you talking about a rooftop ladder? That's not an exit stair and also not 
in an egress pathway.



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Jeff Garrison 
Date: 1/16/24 6:19 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Backflow In Stairwell

You should ask - why are they allowed to put a stairs in the Riser Room?

Jeff Garrison
248-878-1458 - cell


On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 8:15 AM Greg McGahan 
mailto:g...@genesisfireservices.com>> wrote:
We have seen in several times.

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:16 PM Brian Harris 
mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote:
Thank you!!
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2024, at 6:13 PM, Bob Caputo 
mailto:bcap...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:


The one thing I do know about stuff in stairs is that you cannot violate the 
44” stretcher rule, which is an arc


[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
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President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
c: 760-908-7753
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214-349-5965 ext124
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From: Joe Burtell [MT-BILL] 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 1:58 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Cc: Dewayne Martinez 
mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Backflow In Stairwell

I have never heard of such a thing. Do you have a code reference by chance? I 
know there is code for elevator equipment room but that is the only one I am 
aware of.


Joe​

Burtell
Fire Sprinkler Manager
D
C


406-204-4653
406-861-4507
3004 1st Ave South
Billings
,
MT
 59101
Office:
406‑652‑7697
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in error, please contact the sender and destroy any copies of this information.
From: Dewayne Martinez 
mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 12:47 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Cc: Dewayne Martinez 
mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Backflow In Stairwell


CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not follow 
guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you KNOW the content is safe.
I think that the only pipe allowed in a stairwell has to be associated with the 
stairwell IE: standpipe or piping supplying sprinklers for the stairwell.  We 
are on the 2015 IBC and I was flagged by the state reviewer for running a bulk 
pipe in the stairwell. Had to move it out into a closet.

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 1:03 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Backflow In Stairwell

Is there anything inherently wrong with putting the

[Sprinklerforum] Class 1B Flammable Liquids in racks

[Steve Leyton]

Evuhbuddy:

Adult beverage distribution facility, everything from hard seltzers to barrel 
proof spirits.   Palletized and in-rack, some of it on plastic pallets.   I’ve 
solved for everything except the products that are over 100-proof (50% ABV), 
which are Class 1B water-miscible.   30 has an IRAS solution that entails 
horizontal barriers and whatnot but I’m wondering if there’s a CMSA or ESFR 
solution that offsets any or all of that?   FCL’s are not my best thing so 
taking the lazy way and throwing it to the Forum…

Happy Holidays,
Steve Leyton




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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2 Most Remote Hose Valves For Standpipe Calc

[Steve Leyton]

The letter and intent of the standard is to calculate 500 GPM from the 2 most 
demanding hose connections on the hydraulically remote standpipe, then add 250 
GPM at the connection point to the feed main serving the additional standpipes, 
up to the required maximum flow rate for the building.   If the remote 
standpipe has a 2-way roof header, we take it there (also, it's a practice 
that's enforced by just about every AHJ in California).   If  you have only one 
hose connection at the top of the remote SP, then take 250 at that one and 250 
from the next-most remote one and run your 500 back to the feed main that way.

I hope this answers your question, otherwise I'm not understanding it clearly.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2023 1:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 2 Most Remote Hose Valves For Standpipe Calc

At one point calculating a standpipe meant having (2) hose valves on the same 
floor and then calculating (1) each on the other standpipes as needed. Is the 
current train of thought adding the "extra" valve on the most remote standpipe 
not required and just catching one on the floor below good enough?

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Flow test adjustment formula

[Steve Leyton]

Yep.

From: Eric Rieve 
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2023 11:09 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Flow test adjustment formula

Steve,

It should be:
[cid:image001.png@01DA13C6.BE13EC40]

Where:
Px= The residual pressure at a particular flow (Qx)
Ps= The static pressure during the flow test
Pr= The residual pressure during the flow test correlating with Qr
Qx= The flow amount correlating with residual pressure being solved for (Px)
Qr= The flow measured during the test correlating with Pr

Though please run the calc through a known water supply  calc just to make sure 
its correct before you use it on an un-known.

Hope this helps!

Thanks,
Eric Rieve, SET
Rieve Fire Protection


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2023 1:26 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Flow test adjustment formula

Happy Friday everyone:

Once I’ve taken a flow test, I know the formula for adjusting the flow at a 
particular  residual pressure; it’s published in NFPA 291.   But I’ve lost my 
notes on the corollary formula for calculating the residual pressure at a 
particular flow – does anyone have that handy?   I made cheat sheets years ago 
but they’ve decomposed and become grains in the sands of time…

Steve L.

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Flow test adjustment formula

[Steve Leyton]

Thanks Jamie.

I just got it from Kevin Hall – I should have called tech support in the first 
place…

SL

From: Jamie Seidl 
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2023 11:05 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Flow test adjustment formula

If I remember correctly, you can convert your outlet (Flow and pressure) to a K 
factor K=Q/√P  then just solve for P with your flow number (Q/K)₂.

Jamie Seidl

On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 1:28 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
Happy Friday everyone:

Once I’ve taken a flow test, I know the formula for adjusting the flow at a 
particular  residual pressure; it’s published in NFPA 291.   But I’ve lost my 
notes on the corollary formula for calculating the residual pressure at a 
particular flow – does anyone have that handy?   I made cheat sheets years ago 
but they’ve decomposed and become grains in the sands of time…

Steve L.

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[Sprinklerforum] Flow test adjustment formula

[Steve Leyton]

Happy Friday everyone:

Once I’ve taken a flow test, I know the formula for adjusting the flow at a 
particular  residual pressure; it’s published in NFPA 291.   But I’ve lost my 
notes on the corollary formula for calculating the residual pressure at a 
particular flow – does anyone have that handy?   I made cheat sheets years ago 
but they’ve decomposed and become grains in the sands of time…

Steve L.

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

[Steve Leyton]

Huh?   I said that your prescription assumed certain things.   I also suggested 
that the owner be put on record as to whether those certain things were going 
to be required or not.   It’s very possible that higher hazard commodities can 
be found in facilities like this and if they are, THEN that’s the reality.   
You might be absolutely right and then again, it might be overkill to bring 
those other hazards into consideration.   In California (and some other states 
I believe), that scenario cannot be the reality because you can’t have those 
things mixed into trash and recycling.  Facilities that process such products 
as recycling or waste have to have special permits; if they are handled at the 
same property, they are required to be segregated.

We have a lot of Mexican importers and distributors in San Diego and we 
recently did a system upgrade to .495/2,000.   The tenant bought and owns the 
building; their business is wood furniture including chests, beds table chair 
sets and benches and their storage 22’ max height.   No upholstery whatsoever 
but there are some other considerations that prompted a Class IV 
classification, hence the density.   Or should we have plugged in ESFR because 
most furniture warehouses have high levels of exposed expanded plastics?

Steve L.

From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2023 2:19 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

Sorry gang.

Silly me for bringing reality into the thread.

Carry on.

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2023 12:59 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

Respectfully, this sounds like overkill.  The project is described as entailing 
“plastics, paper/cardboard and metal.”   Reading Li and propane into it changes 
everything and depending on the state, you can’t process gas cylinders or Li or 
even computer-related wastes in general sorting/recycling disposal centers.

As noted, you’re going to have exposed plastics, bundled, likely non-expanded.  
 Exactly what form will the most hazardous materials take, in what array will 
they be stored and how high is the roof?  I think an Owner’s Certificate (or 
statement or declaration or whatever) is absolutely essential here…

Steve L.




From: Scott Futrell mailto:sco...@ffcdi.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2023 10:19 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

The fire protection in this building and for this hazard should involve a fire 
protection engineer.

There will be lithium batteries, one pound propane tanks, and more.

Early detection and activation, as well as interlocks on equipment, in a very 
dusty environment should be considered. If it is unheated then dry systems and 
high ceiling heights affect the design.

There are more than just a few fires in these types of facilities that you can 
research and find on the internet.

Scott

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2023 10:53 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

I did one of these a while back. There is no good information in the Standards 
about this (unless there is something new). The problem is this could end up as 
a deep seated fire and the only real way to extinguish it is to pull all of the 
stuff out, look for hot spots and hit them with a hose. The closest thing I 
found was a vague reference to fire in piles of wood chips.

If you want to talk about it, give me a call sometime tomorrow

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

On Nov 9, 2023 at 11:46 AM, mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
A local Solid Waste Company is building a new warehouse style building for 
receiving, Sorting, Bailing and short term storage of recyclables. Mechanical  
Sorting (Roughly 40,000 SF), will be used to sort Plastics, Paper/Cardboard and 
metal.
Storage will consist Bailed Paper, Bailed Plastic and Bailed Aluminum. Top of 
storage shall not exceed 15’-0 high. Roughly 27,000 SF of Storage. The bails 
are wrapped with metal bands or wire.

I am having trouble locating NFPA 13 information concerning storage of Bailed 
Materials and or deign information over the Processing/Sorting machinery.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 0

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

[Steve Leyton]

Respectfully, this sounds like overkill.  The project is described as entailing 
“plastics, paper/cardboard and metal.”   Reading Li and propane into it changes 
everything and depending on the state, you can’t process gas cylinders or Li or 
even computer-related wastes in general sorting/recycling disposal centers.

As noted, you’re going to have exposed plastics, bundled, likely non-expanded.  
 Exactly what form will the most hazardous materials take, in what array will 
they be stored and how high is the roof?  I think an Owner’s Certificate (or 
statement or declaration or whatever) is absolutely essential here…

Steve L.




From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2023 10:19 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

The fire protection in this building and for this hazard should involve a fire 
protection engineer.

There will be lithium batteries, one pound propane tanks, and more.

Early detection and activation, as well as interlocks on equipment, in a very 
dusty environment should be considered. If it is unheated then dry systems and 
high ceiling heights affect the design.

There are more than just a few fires in these types of facilities that you can 
research and find on the internet.

Scott

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2023 10:53 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Commodity Classification questions

I did one of these a while back. There is no good information in the Standards 
about this (unless there is something new). The problem is this could end up as 
a deep seated fire and the only real way to extinguish it is to pull all of the 
stuff out, look for hot spots and hit them with a hose. The closest thing I 
found was a vague reference to fire in piles of wood chips.

If you want to talk about it, give me a call sometime tomorrow

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 9, 2023 at 11:46 AM, mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
A local Solid Waste Company is building a new warehouse style building for 
receiving, Sorting, Bailing and short term storage of recyclables. Mechanical  
Sorting (Roughly 40,000 SF), will be used to sort Plastics, Paper/Cardboard and 
metal.
Storage will consist Bailed Paper, Bailed Plastic and Bailed Aluminum. Top of 
storage shall not exceed 15’-0 high. Roughly 27,000 SF of Storage. The bails 
are wrapped with metal bands or wire.

I am having trouble locating NFPA 13 information concerning storage of Bailed 
Materials and or deign information over the Processing/Sorting machinery.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
 CELL: (802) 373-0638
 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves Residual Pressures

[Steve Leyton]

I've been traveling in Europe since this thread started, which is why I haven't 
chimed in yet.  Thank you for posting this Skyler, as it's mostly right and 
suggests what I think is the right path to partnering with the responding fire 
agency.

For the record, the pressure restrictors at Meridian Plaza performed perfectly 
comma and we're working exactly as they had been set and commissioned into 
service.  The problem was that they had been installed and adjusted for 
equipment that Philadelphia Fire Department was using at the time the building 
was certified for occupancy.  At that time they were using large diameter hose 
and a smooth bore tip that probably only required about 40-50 PSI to perform 
well.  The water supply problems they encountered on response or because the 
department the switched to different tactics and equipment in their standpipe 
kits, and firefighters were using small diameter hose and combination tips that 
required are bare minimum of 75 psi to make pattern. This and other buildings 
in the city were never revisited and updated to provide adequate pressure for 
that setup.

This underscores how critically important it is to correspond with the serving 
fire department to make absolutely sure of what pressure they need period many 
fire agency prevention vureaus don't even know what the operations side needs 
in specific terms common so sometimes it can be challenging.  But asking these 
questions on a new project may prompt certain fire departments to collaborate 
on the answer, which is a good thing for all the stakeholders.

Nationwide, fire departments are getting away from small diameter hose packs 
and selectable flow nozzles because of uncertainties about what pressure 
they're going to actually find on the cose connections if they ever need to 
connect and go.  I personally think that the right pressure is about 125 PSI 
minimum, but we have been running with the 100 psi for years now and the 
committee has determined that this is a good pressure, especially with the 
trend toward larger diameter attack lines and a return to smooth bore tips.  I 
don't know why a fire department would want to cap the pressure at 100 psi on a 
class one connection, as they can control that themselves at the valve during a 
firefight.  But it's worthy of discussion with them to be sure that the widest 
possible range of adequate but still safe pressure is available to them on 
demand.

My opinion only, still on vacation and possibly under the influence of a little 
too much wine.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Skyler Bilbo 
Date: 11/3/23 2:49 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Pressure Regulating Valves 
Residual Pressures

I'm late to the party on this one, but along with talking to the local FD about 
how they want them set, please make sure and leave a clearly labeled wrench to 
adjust these on site, in case the FD does need to adjust them in an emergency.  
If you have never heard of the 1 Meridian Plaza fire, I encourage you to read 
about it.  3 fire fighters died and they did all kinds of things to try to get 
more water to fight the fire, which ended up being caused by incorrectly set 
pressure regulating valves.


https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-history/articles/one-meridian-plaza-3-firefighters-killed-during-unimaginable-blaze-vOsQ4mBwJMLDxiH4/

We set a wrench on top of the fire pump controller and label it with a sticker 
saying "wrench for adjusting pressure regulating valves DO NOT REMOVE FROM THIS 
LOCATION".  Even after saying do not remove, they sometimes grow legs and we 
replace it at our annual inspection.  It could save lives for $20.


Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4y8Hq3kJpcrMKcZPAe4JT4xB7a2Rf10HH9h91m15sYft0q0IkyUaWivqrU3_iQPJ9vznaW8t_4]
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax

sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>
www.wenteplumbing.com<http://www.wenteplumbing.com>


On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 8:01 AM Bob Caputo 
mailto:bcap...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:
Lets look at this from the practical application side of things.  The standpipe 
and its valves are there for the fire service, solely and only.  Every 
department has its own operational standards, due in part to the hose nozzles 
they choose.  Some want the hose valves at intermediate landings, some want 
them on the floor landing.  Some want 100 psi, while others want 125 psi at the 
hose valve (because there is about 29 psi appliance loss in 100 ft of hose) and 
they want 100 psi at the nozzle.

Here on earth, the pressure of elevation is the same for everyone:  0.433 psi 
per ft of elevation – that is unless you went to the University of Maryland, 
where its 0.434 psi per 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Distance to fire pump suction

[Steve Leyton]

If you’re not fluent in Spanish or a translation app uses, César’s message 
says, “According to the (NFPA 20) handbook, the 10x diameter provision doesn’t 
apply to vertical in-line electric pumps.”

Steve

From: César Gonzales 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2023 7:15 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Distance to fire pump suction

Estimados,
De acuerdo con HandBook, las 10 veces el diámetro no aplica si se trata de 
electrobombas vertical en línea.
Saludos.
CAGS.

De: John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>>
Enviado el: sábado, 7 de octubre de 2023 10:27
Para: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Asunto: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Distance to fire pump suction

NFPA 20 - 2023 edition is below.

Hmm. I see the issue. This will be added to AFSA NFPA 20 - 2028 list to clarify 
or address.


4.29.3 Devices in Suction Piping.

Where located in the suction pipe of the pump, check valves and backflow 
prevention devices or assemblies shall be located a minimum of 10 pipe 
diameters from the pump suction flange.





John August Denhardt, P.E.
Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
301-343-1457

On Oct 7, 2023, at 11:19, John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:

I have always used the suction flange size of the fire pump.  The suction pipe 
size and backflow preventer size can vary.  I will look at NFPA 20 when I have 
a chance and see if I can find a reference for you.

Thanks,
John

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
John August Denhardt, PE
Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:
301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w:
firesprinkler.org<http://firesprinkler.org/>


Sprinkler Hydraulic Calculations Workshop

AFSA’s three-day, in-person workshop provides a deep dive into the principles 
of hydraulics, including the different types of pressure, calculating changes 
in pressure (elevation and friction loss), and node analysis. Click 
here<https://www.firesprinkler.org/programs/calculations/> for details and to 
register.


On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 10:52 AM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Fire pump is a 250 gpm at 60 psi

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Oct 7, 2023 at 10:48 AM, mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
Todd,

According to NFPA 20, 2013 ed., 4.26, Table 4.26 shows 4” minimum suction.

2022 ED. Is the same.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
 CELL: (802) 373-0638
 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2023 10:16 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Distance to fire pump suction

I have a system with a 6” backflow preventer, which reduces to 4” immediately 
after. There is approximately 48” of 4” pipe to the suction flange on a 4 x 3 
pump. All elbows are turning correctly. Is this sufficient? Does the 10x rule 
apply to the size of the backflow preventer or the fitting directly attaching 
to the pump?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

Let’s look at it another way:  I have a two-riser standpipe system with 750 gpm 
demand; my water supply duration is 30 minutes, so I need to store 22,500 
gallons.   If I have a break tank that’s got water in it up to a point that 
floods pump suction (let’s say the water column is 6” over the suction 
connection), and I have fill lines that will open on demand and replenish the 
tank so the water level remains above the suction main, then I have a 
conforming water supply, no?So I put another 22,500 gallons into the tank 
and voila, my “secondary water supply” now resides on top of my “primary” one.  
 So long as the fill lines are functional, we’re drafting off of our primary; 
if they are interrupted, we’re on our secondary.

As you quoted, there is no arbitrary requirement for a second pump.  I would 
also point out that everyone is reading into this as the word “tank” doesn’t 
appear anywhere in the secondary water supply requirement. I think we need 
to ask ourselves what the intent of the words really is.   And why would we 
make this more complicated than we have to?


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training






From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:42 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Steve, I understand your point but the IBC says Secondary water supply. Thus a 
second water supply as a backup to the main or primary supply. 403.3.3 
describes : An additional fire
pump shall not be required for the secondary water supply
unless needed to provide the minimum design intake pressure
at the suction side of the fire pump supplying the
automatic sprinkler system.

This is describing how the piping arrangement should be for this tank and pump. 
Which is exactly how we have done it here.

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9EFB0.8CA27580]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>



From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:29 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

I think you’re blurring 403.3.2 and 403.3.3.  If you need two separate city 
connections based on building height,  you can still fill a break tank with 
supply lines connected to separate main legs as prescribed.   403.3.3 doesn’t 
say anything about the connection configuration of pump to tank or 
primary/secondary or anything that prescriptively triggers two separate 
connections.   UNLESS  you take suction directly from a city main and then have 
to make a separate connection to a tank.   Using a break tank checks all the 
boxes IMHO, as you stabilize the suction pressure, you have redundancy, you 
have (barring catastrophe) a reliable water supply AND it’s all a lot simpler 
to design, build and maintain.   That last part is the most important and what 
we’re ultimately seeking with a standpipe water supply is adequacy and 
reliability.   Of course all of this assumes rigorous ITM to make sure it’s 
full, but I reiterate that the point of the secondary water supply is to hedge 
against interruption of the primary and assure an adequate water supply.   Not 
two adequate water supplies, just one.   The break tank resolves and the 
disparate discharge pressure issue that Micah originally asked about.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.protectiondesign.com%2f=E,1,7iJVcUuAF8ZKnXHZjK8eyiF8zCNQG-7SAUydaO1o97hPOgjCJRGsQdM4qkmWX0Y3no64UZsTs6Le1EFsd_UKl_cPjlVVI2-XmpKyqNDPiBFbitK3gQOYBaU,=1>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training








From: Brett Peters mailto:br...@proudline.ca>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:11 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>&g

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

We have designed and overseen construction of numerous PIP concrete tanks built 
into the parkade basements of high-rise buildings.   We generally line them 
with a product that’s mostly polyurethane in composition, formulated to bond 
especially well with concrete.Inspection doesn’t require a drain down 
(submersible cameras are widely available) and done right, a tank can be built 
into or installed within a building that doesn’t require intense effort or 
interruption to undertake appropriate ITM.

Steve

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:27 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Per NFPA 25 Tank internal inspection is required every five years.


From: Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:22 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

That makes total sense and I can see where some projects I did in your area in 
the past were specified that way.  I thought it odd, but I see the reasoning 
behind it now.


Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mepcad.com%2f=E,1,0Xlmuo8oRbgvbHYGDjFSKmwTMJurcOOYr_nZJK4N4I2HDItmmIy_62ijp3JcQpPlHZ6JtfOk1Fw-cRM1rdE7UBF-LMEXd5DeFMuEnhhIJ30uSdYhadLqcQ,,=1>
 | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348
Email: t.m...@mepcad.com<mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:20 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

True, if your tank is down for maintenance…

That occurs pretty infrequently, I’m sure we all agree.   Like maybe once every 
20 years or so?   We take sprinkler systems in and out of service without any 
special consideration all the time and keep in mind that there are options for 
fire watch, temporary piping arrangements and the FDC to help mitigate 
impairment for the short period of time that the tank might have to be emptied.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.protectiondesign.com%2f=E,1,7UcEh_b281ASKE8FAqQthqSlZCaOoI2YxQq4qsWNhka9B1w71pNA28kmVZsNm4zrp1x4oxoN3P33GiHFtlDRfHTbxVKsiUZ-yWxzCj9jL8RdjeuWm4ne5hLeO3U,=1>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:11 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Steve:

I was envisioning that you had your city supply going to the tank and you had 
the full tank.  So if there is activation, you have either city supply or tank 
as back up.  That is no issue.  But if there is no direct bypass around the 
tank, then when your tank is down for maintenance, your entire water supply is 
down for that period.

Maybe I am not perfectly picturing what you are indicating.


Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mepcad.com%2f=E,1,sctbvK3fjoJRvj_zONit49w5lf8GJyPbMWDsg8J3Or_qzDhj2uWtJlI-A9LPg6jFUPr4xjdV_GrkqO4C74cVfFMae6q5mpfSqLBmgsPwvUWv2PV0ODsAKPQ,=1>
 | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348
Email: t.m...@mepcad.com<mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:05 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Respectfully don’t concur.

The point of the tank is to store a reserve of standpipe water or sprinkler 
water, whichever volume is highest given demand x duration.   This requirement 
is intended to mitigate interruption of the primary water supply (city main) 
due to a cataclysmic seismic event that might damage the service lateral or 
public system.  Assuming it’s sized correctly, you start with a full tank and 
the pump begins drafting and almost immediately, the autofill opens.  We use

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

I think you’re blurring 403.3.2 and 403.3.3.  If you need two separate city 
connections based on building height,  you can still fill a break tank with 
supply lines connected to separate main legs as prescribed.   403.3.3 doesn’t 
say anything about the connection configuration of pump to tank or 
primary/secondary or anything that prescriptively triggers two separate 
connections.   UNLESS  you take suction directly from a city main and then have 
to make a separate connection to a tank.   Using a break tank checks all the 
boxes IMHO, as you stabilize the suction pressure, you have redundancy, you 
have (barring catastrophe) a reliable water supply AND it’s all a lot simpler 
to design, build and maintain.   That last part is the most important and what 
we’re ultimately seeking with a standpipe water supply is adequacy and 
reliability.   Of course all of this assumes rigorous ITM to make sure it’s 
full, but I reiterate that the point of the secondary water supply is to hedge 
against interruption of the primary and assure an adequate water supply.   Not 
two adequate water supplies, just one.   The break tank resolves and the 
disparate discharge pressure issue that Micah originally asked about.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training








From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:11 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Steve, I understand the argument but I think that eliminates having two 
supplies to the fire pump, if you are only filling the tank and using the tank 
as the sole supply to the fire pump then you only have on supply, what happens 
if in the case of some type of event you actually lose the tank but have city 
water supply, you need the the city supply supplying the fire pump as well as 
the tank or you essentially are still looking at only one supply to the fire 
pump and assuming that the tank will never fail as opposed to having city 
supply and tank supply to the pump which would be 2 independent sources.


Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca<mailto:a...@proudline.ca> for more information



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On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 1:05 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
Respectfully don’t concur.

The point of the tank is to store a reserve of standpipe water or sprinkler 
water, whichever volume is highest given demand x duration.   This requirement 
is intended to mitigate interruption of the primary water supply (city main) 
due to a cataclysmic seismic event that might damage the service lateral or 
public system.  Assuming it’s sized correctly, you start with a full tank and 
the pump begins drafting and almost immediately, the autofill opens.  We use 6” 
fill lines, so once its open, the fill line will either maintain the tank level 
or augment it.   If at some point the supply to the tank is interrupted, you at 
least have tank water for the calculated duration at full demand.

Even if the public (fill) supply is interrupted before the pump operates, you 
still have a full tank at the start.  Which is the point, to assure an adequate 
water supply for the duration of an activation.  Not two separate (

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

True, if your tank is down for maintenance…

That occurs pretty infrequently, I’m sure we all agree.   Like maybe once every 
20 years or so?   We take sprinkler systems in and out of service without any 
special consideration all the time and keep in mind that there are options for 
fire watch, temporary piping arrangements and the FDC to help mitigate 
impairment for the short period of time that the tank might have to be emptied.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:11 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Steve:

I was envisioning that you had your city supply going to the tank and you had 
the full tank.  So if there is activation, you have either city supply or tank 
as back up.  That is no issue.  But if there is no direct bypass around the 
tank, then when your tank is down for maintenance, your entire water supply is 
down for that period.

Maybe I am not perfectly picturing what you are indicating.


Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<http://www.mepcad.com/> | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348
Email: t.m...@mepcad.com<mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 12:05 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Respectfully don’t concur.

The point of the tank is to store a reserve of standpipe water or sprinkler 
water, whichever volume is highest given demand x duration.   This requirement 
is intended to mitigate interruption of the primary water supply (city main) 
due to a cataclysmic seismic event that might damage the service lateral or 
public system.  Assuming it’s sized correctly, you start with a full tank and 
the pump begins drafting and almost immediately, the autofill opens.  We use 6” 
fill lines, so once its open, the fill line will either maintain the tank level 
or augment it.   If at some point the supply to the tank is interrupted, you at 
least have tank water for the calculated duration at full demand.

Even if the public (fill) supply is interrupted before the pump operates, you 
still have a full tank at the start.  Which is the point, to assure an adequate 
water supply for the duration of an activation.  Not two separate (and 
potentially concurrent) water supplies, just a back-up to assure that you have 
one reliable one.   And you won’t have that if you’re drafting just from the 
city main and it gets interrupted, so I think this arrangement is consistent 
with the intent.   And all the AHJ’s out here in Earthquake Country seem to 
agree, as this is a fairly standard arrangement.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 9:47 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

In my opinion, that is not dual water supplies. If the tank is down your water 
supply is down. You need one connected to the city and one connected to the 
tank. Yes. It can be quite tough to balance that calc. I’ve had to put a PRV on 
the incoming line so as to basically kill most of the supply pressure.


Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com<http://www.mepcad.com/> | m: 480.547.9348



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad


From: Micah Davis mailto:micah...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 9:17:40 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

Respectfully don’t concur.

The point of the tank is to store a reserve of standpipe water or sprinkler 
water, whichever volume is highest given demand x duration.   This requirement 
is intended to mitigate interruption of the primary water supply (city main) 
due to a cataclysmic seismic event that might damage the service lateral or 
public system.  Assuming it’s sized correctly, you start with a full tank and 
the pump begins drafting and almost immediately, the autofill opens.  We use 6” 
fill lines, so once its open, the fill line will either maintain the tank level 
or augment it.   If at some point the supply to the tank is interrupted, you at 
least have tank water for the calculated duration at full demand.

Even if the public (fill) supply is interrupted before the pump operates, you 
still have a full tank at the start.  Which is the point, to assure an adequate 
water supply for the duration of an activation.  Not two separate (and 
potentially concurrent) water supplies, just a back-up to assure that you have 
one reliable one.   And you won’t have that if you’re drafting just from the 
city main and it gets interrupted, so I think this arrangement is consistent 
with the intent.   And all the AHJ’s out here in Earthquake Country seem to 
agree, as this is a fairly standard arrangement.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 9:47 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

In my opinion, that is not dual water supplies. If the tank is down your water 
supply is down. You need one connected to the city and one connected to the 
tank. Yes. It can be quite tough to balance that calc. I’ve had to put a PRV on 
the incoming line so as to basically kill most of the supply pressure.


Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com<http://www.mepcad.com/> | m: 480.547.9348



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad


From: Micah Davis mailto:micah...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 9:17:40 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

Thank you for the response, Steve!  Does the redundant fill valves for the tank 
satisfy the secondary supply requirement of the IBC without an additional tank? 
 I was interpreting the city main connected to the pump as the primary supply 
and the tank as the secondary supply (or vice versa).  If my interpretation is 
wrong and the tank with redundant fill valves meets BOTH the primary and 
secondary water supply requirements, I can NOT connect the city water main to 
the fire pump, and the problem is solved using your method above.

Am I tracking correctly?

My thought is that if the city main stays connected to the pump and my demand 
calcs and PRV settings are based on the supply from the tank (which I think is 
correct), how do we avoid overpressurization with the added pressure from the 
city?  I'm probably overthinking this somewhere!  That tends to be my M.O.!


Micah Davis

Ferguson Fire Design

micah.da...@ferguson.com<mailto:micah.da...@ferguson.com>


On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 12:02 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

Micah:

The best way to stabilize the pump discharge pressure and give yourself a 
(nearly) straight line suction pressure curve is to arrange the required 
secondary water supply as a break tank.   Fill the tank with city water 
(recommend to manifold at least one automatic plus one manual fill; in my neck 
of the woods we use two automatic and one manual) and base  your calculations 
on the lowest potential water level in the tank.  We simply use the pump’s 
performance curve as a water supply assuming 0 psi suction head.   Depending on 
water column height, your actual discharge pressure variation will be  ≤ 5 psi, 
unless the tank is uniquely configured and multi-story.





The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.



Protection Design and Consulting

Steve Leyton, President

T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  S

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe PRV Question

[Steve Leyton]

Micah:

The best way to stabilize the pump discharge pressure and give yourself a 
(nearly) straight line suction pressure curve is to arrange the required 
secondary water supply as a break tank.   Fill the tank with city water 
(recommend to manifold at least one automatic plus one manual fill; in my neck 
of the woods we use two automatic and one manual) and base  your calculations 
on the lowest potential water level in the tank.  We simply use the pump’s 
performance curve as a water supply assuming 0 psi suction head.   Depending on 
water column height, your actual discharge pressure variation will be  ≤ 5 psi, 
unless the tank is uniquely configured and multi-story.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Micah Davis 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 8:55 AM
To: SprinklerForum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Standpipe PRV Question

Good morning, Forum!

I've got a head-scratcher and am interested in the Forum's collective opinion!  
Important project parameters are as follows.

- 42-story high rise with an automatic standpipe
- Seismic Design Category - C
- IBC 2018
- Fire pump supplied by city water supply
- Secondary supply, as required by IBC 403.3.3, is a tank of adequate size
- 305 psi @ 1000 gpm pump sized based on the feed from tank
- Direct-acting pressure reducing valves on each floor

Here is my issue.  If I base my PRV settings on city supply, I cannot get 100 
psi at the remote valves when calculating tank as supply.  If I base my PRV 
settings on tank supply, I am over 175 psi discharge on the valve when 
calculating city as supply.  If I try to get my settings using the city as 
static and the tank as residual pressures, there is no PRV setting that works.

I have my opinions about what I think should happen here, but I want to see 
what the Forum thinks.  I will not bother the group with what the design team 
is suggesting I do.

Micah Davis
Ferguson Fire Design
micah.da...@ferguson.com<mailto:micah.da...@ferguson.com>

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Pump Suction Components

[Steve Leyton]

If  you're in earthquake country, grooved offers an inherently better-protected 
suction main, but it would take an almost cataclysmic event to test that 
admittedly.   We've pretty much gone to grooved as the preferred joining method 
throughout our protected environments.  The compounds used to make the rubbers, 
the near-elimination of human error potential with regard to lubricants, 
positioning, proper closure, high to very-high pressure ratings, all make it a 
pretty reliable (and much faster as you say) joining method.

SL

From: Taylor Schumacher 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 6:10 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pump Suction Components

I don't know of a requirement for flanged fittings in the suction side. OS 
valves typically came FxF and hence the suction side fittings would all be 
flanged. Grooved OS is becoming more popular... That being said, I have yet 
to see a pump with grooved inlets and outlets.

Pros to all grooved are they are quicker to install.
Pros to all flanged is they create a more stable/sturdy connection.


Taylor Schumacher
Security Fire Sprinkler
1 Industrial Blvd | Sauk Rapids, MN 56379
Office: 320.656.0847 | Direct: 320.640.7050

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 7:48 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Pump Suction Components

Caution: This email originated from outside your organization. Please take care 
when clicking links or opening attachments.

I've seen two schools of thought with regard to pump suction components. One 
way is flanged on the suction side and grooved on the discharge. The other is 
all grooved. I can; t see where NFPA-20 requires it either way. What's the 
popular choice and are there pro's & cons?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Last OH 3 edition

[Steve Leyton]

Thanks to everyone for the quick replies!

From: Cary Webber 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2023 12:13 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Last OH 3 edition

Was there in the 1989 edition...gone in the 1991 edition.



Cary Webber CFPS Director, Technical Services
Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Co., Inc.
1470 Smith Grove Road, Liberty, SC  29657
Tel: 864-843-5161

[https://www.reliablesprinkler.com/sites/default/files/image001.png]<http://www.reliablesprinkler.com/>

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2023 2:54 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Last OH 3 edition

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.

Any of y'all know when OH2 and OH3 collapsed into just OH2 at .20 density?

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9E4A9.8533A2E0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Last OH 3 edition

[Steve Leyton]

Any of y'all know when OH2 and OH3 collapsed into just OH2 at .20 density?

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9E4A6.B6385730]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Hydraulic Placards

[Steve Mackinnon]

Hey Brian,

I use to do this for a couple companies... I only surveyed the "remote area" 
and main piping back to the alarm valve.

The AHJ is just looking for a replacement Placard, not plans or calcs.

Good luck!
Steven
From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Hydraulic Placards

I'm sure this has been asked before but here goes... An existing apartment 
complex was flagged by the AHJ for not have Riser placards. The building has 
changed owners a couple times so nobody knows who the original sprinkler 
company was. Is it realistic to think the entire system would have to be 
surveyed and enough laid out to run new calcs?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine

[Steve Leyton]

Sorry if this is a little crude, but the EOR is tripping balls and stuff like 
this is starting really piss me off.Our firm has worked REALLY hard to 
develop state-of-the-art skills (Revit-based design, a high-level of knowledge 
regarding codes and standards) up and down our staff roster and these are the 
people we are competing against.

“Obstruction” is a defined term and you can certainly classify a mezzanine as 
one, but if you read the cited section, it clearly implies that you are 
protecting the same area from below the obstruction as from the ceiling above 
it.   It’s one fire area, which a mezzanine is not.   Say you have a high 
hazard like Group A to 30’ under a 35’ roof, that is protected by ESFR.   Under 
a 12’ mezzanine you have 10’ of storage – possibly even Group A -  and it’s a 
different occupancy hazard class.   Now you have adjacent hazards (§20.10 in 
the 2019) and it’s a completely different context with regard to sprinkler 
selection and that section gives us guidance regarding the two ceiling heights 
– see §20.10.1(3).  The language of 9.5.5.3.3 is intended to assure adequate 
discharge density over a particular (higher hazard in this case) fire load; I 
think you have to be of a CYA mindset or worse to read it any other way.

You may want to inform the owner of the project that their consultant is 
pissing away thousand$$ of their money for no good reason.

My opinion only,
Steve L.




From: Joe Burtell [MT-BILL] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 8:43 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine

Both structures are steel construction, roof is steel deck, steel open girders 
and joists. Mezzanine is steel beams, open grating, and steel plate for 
walkways.

I’m not questioning if sprinklers are needed, I agree they are, I am 
questioning if they need to be ESFR to match the overhead or they can be 
different (CMDA, etc..)

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9DA55.63A95F60]
Joe​

Burtell | SET, CFPS
Fire Sprinkler Manager
D
C


406-204-4653
406-861-4507
From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 9:28 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine


CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not follow 
guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you KNOW the content is safe.
A mezzanine is an obstruction to overhead sprinklers. Of that there is no doubt.

Sprinklers need to be provide under the mezzanines as noted in the cited NFPA 
13 section.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Joe Burtell [MT-BILL] 
mailto:jburt...@summitfiresecurity.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 9:23 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] ESFR Below Mezzanine

I have a soda manufacturing warehouse with ESFR at the roof deck. They are 
building out some mezzanines in the middle of the warehouse that will have 
bottling equipment.  The engineer is requiring that below the mezzanine have 
ESFR per NFPA 13 2019 9.5.5.3.3. I am questioning if the mezzanine is really 
treated like an obstruction? I think it would be treated like in-racks would 
and have its own design based on what’s under the mezzanine.

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9DA55.63A95F60]
Joe​

Burtell | SET, CFPS
Fire Sprinkler Manager
D
C


406-204-4653
406-861-4507
3004 1st Ave South
Billings
,
MT
 59101
Office:
406‑652‑7697
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Roof Drain / Sprinkler Drain

[Steve Leyton]

Not so fast everyone.

The answer to this question depends entirely on your location and the 
state/local rules that may apply to managing storm water runoff and what is 
allowed to enter the watershed via the storm drain system.   It’s easy poke fun 
at CA because of our sometimes-suffocating regulatory environment, but it is 
now illegal to direct sprinkler water into the storm system.  In fact, in most 
incorporated cities and counties, you cannot dump onto hardscape if water could 
run to the storm system.  And CA is NOT the only state in the West with such 
restrictions – anywhere that water can run into the ocean, a bay or lake or 
river, we are now seeing these restrictions.

Personally, I understand that if sprinkler water can enter a watershed, it will 
contaminate it and I accept these regulations as a necessary pain-in-the-ass.   
 The challenge is not how to resolve new builds, it’s to deal with 
T.I./expansion projects and ITM throughout the built environment where old 
school test/drain discharge is open to the public way.   There are bio filters 
(sand/oil) for the storm system that may be acceptable to enable discharge, but 
the project civil or owner has to get the private storm system approved if 
using that approach and water cannot enter the public system.  Civil engineers 
and landscape architects engage bio-swales and detention features, and we 
sometimes coordinate with various means to get discharge to percolate into 
softscapes on site.

But the best and most basic approach is to coordinate with the plumbing 
engineer and arrange for a hub drain (4” self-priming trap, 4”-->6” concentric 
increaser to a rubber-booted hub) to be roughed into the riser room.   This 
enables adequate capacity for main drain and inspector’s tests, vents the drain 
per code and controls stinky smells.   In your basement application, we would 
assume that there’s a sewer sump with an ejector, so take it to a hub drain in 
the basement or directly to the sump if you can.   If you’re draining through a 
hose valve, you can obviously drop a hose to the sump.   If one’s not being 
provided, ask for it and point out the challenge of ITM to ownership if the 
building’s not so equipped.

My 4¢,
Steve L.

From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 6:43 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Roof Drain / Sprinkler Drain

Skyler-
Thank you, will do.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>


From: Skyler Bilbo mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 9:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Roof Drain / Sprinkler Drain

In most cases/places, the sprinkler water is considered gray water, and it 
would be OK to discharge a sprinkler drain to a storm sewer (this is most 
likely where it would end up if you have ever piped a sprinkler drain out an 
exterior wall). This is not OK everywhere, so for your specific project, it 
would be best to ask the AHJ and the plumber (and possibly the plumbing 
inspector) on the project if it is OK.

-Skyler

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 8:25 AM Brett Peters 
mailto:br...@proudline.ca>> wrote:
I think that would depend on the municipality, most do not want the sprinkler 
water going directly into the storm drains, drained to exterior or into a waste 
drain


Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca<mailto:a...@proudline.ca> for more information



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On Wed, 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Control/Sectioning Valves

[Steve Leyton]

You’re right, that’s the branch in the assessment tree.   I’m 110%, 
unequivocally on the side of #2, presuming there isn’t a charging code 
requirement as alluded to in the covered mall building example.   Creating a 
series of smaller tenant-specific systems, each with their own flow/tamper 
switch addresses in the larger zone map of the entire mall is different than 
breaking up the distribution piping in a large building that is zoned and 
addressed as such.

We got sucked into an argument with by a contractor client a few years ago, 
where an AHJ was asking for sectional controls in the distribution mains of a 
huge mixed use podium project.   There were 18-20 standpipes, at least four or 
six of them combo with sprinkler controls at each floor, and the occupancies 
were broken up by floor.   There was parking underground, retail/food & 
beverage at the first floor, and residential uses above that.  But the fire 
official wanted a strict horizontal separation scheme based on the same concept 
of counting risers as appliance units.

We ended up having to capitulate as they were adamant (and super-shi**y about 
it) but I got the brilliant idea of going to the CSFM for an interpretation and 
got a favorable one in just a couple of days.  So we ultimately got over on 
this situation AND established the interp so that requirement wasn’t applied 
again in the state to my knowledge.   In the course of that, I asked NFPA staff 
to help me get to the bottom of the intent of the isolation valving 
requirements and I think it’s fair to say that this application was never 
conceived to be for overhead systems.   That’s convenient for me because I 
don’t see the value of them and it feeds into my preferences.

If you have to take down a whole lot of sprinklers to do a T.I. or repair, then 
so be it.  We can’t design systems that aren’t subject to some level of 
interruption unless we valve every sprinkler, and the current standard of care 
has generally worked well for improvements, repairs and inspections, no?  If it 
ain’t broke…

SL

From: Kyle.Montgomery 
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 2:43 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Control/Sectioning Valves

But, (and I’m deliberately being the devil’s advocate here), which is worse:


  1.  10 individual valves controlling small areas, any one of which could be 
closed when it shouldn’t be?
  2.  1 valve controlling the entire area, but which has to be shut each time 
work is done in any of the 10 smaller areas?

It’s arguably more likely that a valve is left off in scenario 1 (but not 
necessarily, since in each case you have to shut a valve any time you work on a 
system, and therefore must remember to open that valve afterwards). But more 
likely to be catastrophic if THE valve is left off in scenario 2. Is it better 
to lose the Forever 21 but save the Twin Pines Mall?

-Kyle M


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:58 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Control/Sectioning Valves

I don’t know for sure what the actual numbers are, and it’s widely accepted 
that a lot of fire incidents are under-reported or not reported in detail to 
the extent that nuance or extenuating circumstances are accurately reflected. 
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I don’t know for sure what the actual numbers are, and it’s widely accepted 
that a lot of fire incidents are under-reported or not reported in detail to 
the extent that nuance or extenuating circumstances are accurately reflected.   
That said, NFPA has been relying on rough numbers for several years to assess 
sprinkler system failures:  80% of all sprinkler system failures are 
attributable to encumbrance of water supply and 80% of those impairments are 
wholly or partially closed valves.   So 2/3 of all failures are due to close 
valves, admittedly in simplistic terms.

So adding sectional valves for convenience or some preemptive purpose that I 
can’t really imagine right now, is a risk and one that goes against my basic 
principles of K.I.S.S. and keeping the chain of events as short as possible.   
Each additional valve is a link that can fail and removing the link prevents 
that potential occurrence.

My 2¢ only,
Steve L.

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Control/Sectioning Valves

[Steve Leyton]

I don't know for sure what the actual numbers are, and it's widely accepted 
that a lot of fire incidents are under-reported or not reported in detail to 
the extent that nuance or extenuating circumstances are accurately reflected.   
That said, NFPA has been relying on rough numbers for several years to assess 
sprinkler system failures:  80% of all sprinkler system failures are 
attributable to encumbrance of water supply and 80% of those impairments are 
wholly or partially closed valves.   So 2/3 of all failures are due to close 
valves, admittedly in simplistic terms.

So adding sectional valves for convenience or some preemptive purpose that I 
can't really imagine right now, is a risk and one that goes against my basic 
principles of K.I.S.S. and keeping the chain of events as short as possible.   
Each additional valve is a link that can fail and removing the link prevents 
that potential occurrence.

My 2¢ only,
Steve L.

From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 12:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Control/Sectioning Valves

Is there anything inherently wrong with installing control valves within a 
system to isolate certain areas? Say for instance you have a strip mall fed 
from one system and you want to add control valves within that system to 
isolate certain stores without interrupting service to the rest. I understand 
It needs monitoring and draining but is there anything else to consider?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

[Steve Leyton]

I’m working on verifying whether it is or isn’t that.   There were several 
TriWater systems installed in San Diego County in the mid-80s and I actually 
designed quite a few of them, including two high-rises.   Bad juju in 
hindsight, but I was a mere pup.   Right now, I’m being told there’s only one 
set of mains and branchlines, so that would preclude a closed loop system, but 
I’ve not laid eyes on it.

SL

From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 2:49 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Could be a closed loop chiller system, allowed by 13, you would have to trace 
the lines and see if it actually is and if it’s done right. I’ve only seen a 
couple of them and they never work right, always end up disconnecting the units.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 3:36 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
We’re pretty it’s not Kosher because A) it don’t seem right and, B) this is 
California and there HAS to be a rule against it, right?

SL


From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 2:20 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Apparently the flow is low enough not to set off any flow switch?  I wonder if 
it’s legal from a water consumption point of view if the sprinkler water isn’t 
metered?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler 
Road<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
   Greenville, South 
Carolina<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
  
29606<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 5:13 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

I think these are a two pipe, so unless they also tapped into the sprinkler 
system for return, it may go to sanitary?I really don’t know (and don’t 
care for purposes of researching a prohibition), just looking for anything 
codified as the owner of the building asked the sprinkie when they discovered 
the condition.   Nobody seems to know how and when it was installed this way.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:54 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Yes, serious question, wasn’t sure what kind of “pancake unit” was being 
referred to.

So the unit is drawing water off the sprinkler branch line and then doing what 
with the water after it goes through the unit?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler 
Road<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
   Greenville, South 
Carolina<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
  
29606<https://www.google.com/maps/search/1041+East+Butler+Road+Greenville,+South+Carolina+29606?entry=gmail=g>
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 4:28 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

I’m not sure if this is a serious question, but no, it’s an extremely compact 
horizontal fan coil unit, aka “pancake style”.   They’ve been used in 
apartments for many years in applications where soffit depth is limited.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:24 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

[Steve Leyton]

We're pretty it's not Kosher because A) it don't seem right and, B) this is 
California and there HAS to be a rule against it, right?

SL


From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 2:20 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Apparently the flow is low enough not to set off any flow switch?  I wonder if 
it's legal from a water consumption point of view if the sprinkler water isn't 
metered?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 5:13 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

I think these are a two pipe, so unless they also tapped into the sprinkler 
system for return, it may go to sanitary?I really don't know (and don't 
care for purposes of researching a prohibition), just looking for anything 
codified as the owner of the building asked the sprinkie when they discovered 
the condition.   Nobody seems to know how and when it was installed this way.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:54 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Yes, serious question, wasn't sure what kind of "pancake unit" was being 
referred to.

So the unit is drawing water off the sprinkler branch line and then doing what 
with the water after it goes through the unit?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 4:28 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

I'm not sure if this is a serious question, but no, it's an extremely compact 
horizontal fan coil unit, aka "pancake style".   They've been used in 
apartments for many years in applications where soffit depth is limited.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:24 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Pancake unit?  Like a flapjack maker?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 3:43 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Non-fire connections

One of our contractor partners just sent us a photo of a pancake unit in an 
existing condition, one of many that is connected in a very tight interstitial 
space to the nearest sprinkler branch line.   All I've found in the 2016 
edition regarding non-fire connections is the info on acceptable recirculating 
loop sprinkler/HVAC systems but I'm not finding a prohibition or any other 
specific info regarding non-fire water connections.  Does anyone know if it's 
in there somewhere, or perhaps in the ICC code set?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D9CACE.59BAAC20]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.protectiondesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!ALzxNM699IRw7FVKR1IxX-Jmkq9-yVaP5MG1xmR-ncs1B6qkQXRQ8p-yY1b_v2AA1Ai9-jtw55PKp4BkEIwRleM$>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

[Steve Leyton]

I think these are a two pipe, so unless they also tapped into the sprinkler 
system for return, it may go to sanitary?I really don't know (and don't 
care for purposes of researching a prohibition), just looking for anything 
codified as the owner of the building asked the sprinkie when they discovered 
the condition.   Nobody seems to know how and when it was installed this way.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:54 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Yes, serious question, wasn't sure what kind of "pancake unit" was being 
referred to.

So the unit is drawing water off the sprinkler branch line and then doing what 
with the water after it goes through the unit?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 4:28 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

I'm not sure if this is a serious question, but no, it's an extremely compact 
horizontal fan coil unit, aka "pancake style".   They've been used in 
apartments for many years in applications where soffit depth is limited.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:24 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Pancake unit?  Like a flapjack maker?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 3:43 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Non-fire connections

One of our contractor partners just sent us a photo of a pancake unit in an 
existing condition, one of many that is connected in a very tight interstitial 
space to the nearest sprinkler branch line.   All I've found in the 2016 
edition regarding non-fire connections is the info on acceptable recirculating 
loop sprinkler/HVAC systems but I'm not finding a prohibition or any other 
specific info regarding non-fire water connections.  Does anyone know if it's 
in there somewhere, or perhaps in the ICC code set?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D9CACA.6D663680]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.protectiondesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!ALzxNM699IRw7FVKR1IxX-Jmkq9-yVaP5MG1xmR-ncs1B6qkQXRQ8p-yY1b_v2AA1Ai9-jtw55PKp4BkEIwRleM$>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.



NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

[Steve Leyton]

I'm not sure if this is a serious question, but no, it's an extremely compact 
horizontal fan coil unit, aka "pancake style".   They've been used in 
apartments for many years in applications where soffit depth is limited.

Steve

From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2023 1:24 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Non-fire connections

Pancake unit?  Like a flapjack maker?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME - Special Hazards | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 3:43 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Non-fire connections

One of our contractor partners just sent us a photo of a pancake unit in an 
existing condition, one of many that is connected in a very tight interstitial 
space to the nearest sprinkler branch line.   All I've found in the 2016 
edition regarding non-fire connections is the info on acceptable recirculating 
loop sprinkler/HVAC systems but I'm not finding a prohibition or any other 
specific info regarding non-fire water connections.  Does anyone know if it's 
in there somewhere, or perhaps in the ICC code set?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D9CAC5.509E9B00]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.protectiondesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!ALzxNM699IRw7FVKR1IxX-Jmkq9-yVaP5MG1xmR-ncs1B6qkQXRQ8p-yY1b_v2AA1Ai9-jtw55PKp4BkEIwRleM$>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.

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[Sprinklerforum] Non-fire connections

[Steve Leyton]

One of our contractor partners just sent us a photo of a pancake unit in an 
existing condition, one of many that is connected in a very tight interstitial 
space to the nearest sprinkler branch line.   All I've found in the 2016 
edition regarding non-fire connections is the info on acceptable recirculating 
loop sprinkler/HVAC systems but I'm not finding a prohibition or any other 
specific info regarding non-fire water connections.  Does anyone know if it's 
in there somewhere, or perhaps in the ICC code set?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D9CABE.F74324F0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Water filled Sprinkler Pipe Condensate issue

[Steve Leyton]

I would DEFINITELY not get involved; my take would be that I'm not a mechanical 
engineer, haven't ever experienced this phenomenon, don't know what's causing 
it or how to resolve.

That said, a couple questions:

  1.  Is there any insulation at the roof?  Is there anything between the 
piping and the cheese racks below?
  2.  Where are the AC ducts that are distributing the cold air that's keeping 
this high volume space at 40-45°?
  3.  Can the ME who designed the AC system project where and how the cool air 
layer over the cheese meets and blends with the warm air from the summer sun 
above?   Or, can the owner hire a company that provides thermography services 
that might help to document that condition?

Off the record (since I've already disclaimed any expertise), it seems logical 
that the cold air is causing condensation of the warm (and possibly humid) 
upper layer that's collecting on the sprinkler piping but otherwise falling out 
and evaporating where it doesn't land on an upper surface.Almost certainly 
nothing to be done with the sprinkler system except to conceal it behind a 
suspended ceiling that would enable conditioning of the cheese below but not 
expose the sprinkler piping to that colder air mass.

Steve L.

From: tston...@comcast.net 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2023 12:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Water filled Sprinkler Pipe Condensate issue

A recently installed wet pipe sprinkler system protecting 25' high rack storage 
of Class 3 Commodity. The warehouse is kept cool between 40° & 45° F. (aging 
Cheese).
The Sprinkler system is a Grid Pipe with branch line piping installed about 
12"+ down below the roof deck. The pipes sweat profusely to the point that the 
company renting the space is concerned about the cheese getting wet.
The Project Manager keeps calling me for advise to resolve the situation and I 
have no ideas except to suggest he bring in a Mechanical Engineer with 
experience in Coolers. The area in question measures 300' long x 167' wide.

Like most areas it has been a hot summer by Vermont standards.

Has any one had issues like this ?

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
 CELL: (802) 373-0638
 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire Alarm Control Panel location

[Steve Leyton]

Yes, and the city has a policy bulletin that precludes locating the FACP where 
my client wants to.   My interest in this issue is now based on my being 
surprised that there is apparently no guidance in the IFC or NFPA 72.

SL

From: BRUCE VERHEI 
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2023 3:28 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire Alarm Control Panel location

I tried to note approved annunciator location at pre-development meeting 
letter, before building permit application had been made. Have you talked with 
fire plan reviewer?

Best.
On 08/07/2023 11:17 AM PDT Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:


Not strictly a sprinkler question, but does anyone know if there’s a 
prescriptive requirement in CFC/IFC or NFPA 72 regarding location of an FACP?   
Mixed use building, residential over commercial and parking, service 
entry/riser and fire pump all in one room, and the architect wants to place the 
FACP in the pump room.   It’s not going to work for a couple of reasons but I 
wanted to steer him to a code-based explanation and surprised to not be finding 
one.

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9C946.8591D140]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Fire Alarm Control Panel location

[Steve Leyton]

Not strictly a sprinkler question, but does anyone know if there's a 
prescriptive requirement in CFC/IFC or NFPA 72 regarding location of an FACP?   
Mixed use building, residential over commercial and parking, service 
entry/riser and fire pump all in one room, and the architect wants to place the 
FACP in the pump room.   It's not going to work for a couple of reasons but I 
wanted to steer him to a code-based explanation and surprised to not be finding 
one.

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9C920.CB155690]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

[Steve Leyton]

While that is certainly the perspective of many/most FDs, it doesn't resolve 
the fact that the check valve on an FDC won't allow water to be taken at that 
second connection, which is the implied intent.   I think what the fire 
official means to say is that they want a wall hydrant off the sprinkler system 
so they can pump to themselves through the building system as opposed to 
utilizing an UG main.

Steve L.

From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 11:22 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Nope. Exterior fire operations are as or more important than internal.

Seen this many times for different applications.

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Designer IV
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
401 N 5th Street
Suite 448
Wausau, WI 54403
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:19 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

This is a first. We recently did a sprinkler system for a 2-story storage 
building. The owner is now putting storage containers in the back parking lot 
and the AHJ wants him to add a 2nd FDC on the back of the building, there's 
already one on the front, and use it to "supply" fire hoses if there's a fire 
outside since there's not a hydrant in the back Tell me I'm crazy.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

[Steve Leyton]

My wife wondered who I was dictating that previous email to and I told her what 
happened last night. She's much more concerned than you and I about high level 
consequences in these situations, but her point is well made. You and I don't 
know this guy, and he could be a total wacko. The convention is in Orlando. His 
company is in Orlando. As I said in my previous email, I don't ever want to see 
or hear or read him if I can possibly avoid it. So what to do?



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Bob Caputo 
Date: 6/10/23 7:50 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

I will remind all users of this forum, this is NOT a place for political 
discussion or personal attacks.  This will serve as a global warning to anyone 
violating this policy, a policy you all agreed to when signing on.  The AFSA 
will remove your access to the Sprinkler Forum if you violate this policy.  
There will be no further warnings – this is one warning, then one-strike and 
you’re out policy.  No exceptions and no appeals. The sprinkler forum is a 
member benefit for AFSA members to discuss technical and business matters.

We all have views on current events and the political drama we see playing out 
every day – this is not the place for it.

Thank you.


[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
c: 760-908-7753
p:
214-349-5965 ext124
w:
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 <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>  
 
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

[Steve Leyton]

Completely inappropriate comment.  Biden isn't facing 37 federal counts, but 
this isn't the venue to talk about it in any case.

Steve L.



 Original message 
From: Sean Lockyer 
Date: 6/9/23 8:32 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

The fitting was called a "Joe Biden did the crime but Donald Trump will do the 
time" bullshit, I mean, bullhead tee.

-Original Message-
From: AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2023 7:14 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Back-to-back sidewalls at Mar-a-Lago?

The DOJ released photos of boxed documents stored at Mar-a-Lago. Something just 
jumps out to anyone familiar to installations. Am I seeing a set of 
back-to-back sidewalls in one of those photos and if so, what fitting was used 
to do that? The photo is not that clear but it sure looks like a set of 
back-to-backs to me, but it is the fitting used to do that that stumps me.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Manual Wet Standpipe & Pump

[Steve Leyton]

In combined standpipe/sprinkler systems utilizing a manual-wet standpipe, the 
sizing of any attached water supply for sprinklers is not required to meet the 
standpipe demand.   This is explicitly codified in §7.7.3 of the 2019 edition 
and conveniently, so numbered in preceding editions as well.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Brian Harris 
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2023 7:18 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Manual Wet Standpipe & Pump

If a building has manual wet standpipes and a fire pump could the pump be sized 
to meet the system demand of the sprinklers only since the fire truck will be 
providing the demands of the standpipe?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Control valve Failures

[Steve Leyton]

Points well made and taken, but the very bottom line is that over the past 30 
years or so (since I started paying attention to the bigger picture in our 
industry) there have been dozens of LODD fires in sprinklered buildings that 
were due to closed valves or otherwise impaired water supplies.   The one that 
really got to me was in a Brooklyn NY apartment building where a fire sprinkler 
sectional valve was closed, buried in a wall cavity behind an unmarked AP, and 
4 firefighters died trying to recon the floor above the fire because they 
thought there were people still in the building.Bottom line is that if a 
valve is redundant (and I understand that may be a subjective consideration in 
some cases), all the stakeholders should think long and hard about whether we 
want to put it in.Tamper switches fail, systems don’t get tested, the more 
valves there are to operate for maintenance and improvements, the more likely 
they are to get tested, etc., etc.

Steve L.

From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 5:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Control valve Failures

Good morning.

I’ve changed the subject from CPVC to follow up these comments.

NFPA statistics are based on NFIRS reports completed within hours or days of an 
event. The statistics do not include any of the failure investigations my 
colleagues and I undertake. It takes months to determine the actual cause and 
cost of a failure event and that is never reported or included.  Case in point, 
NFIRS: 8 sprinklers controlled restaurant fire in Madison, Wisconsin. NFPA gets 
that information. Reality: NO sprinklers in the building and restaurant 
suppression system did NOT suppress the fire.

In the last five years I have investigated two significant losses where the 
valve(s) were closed. ALL of the other failures are design, installation, and 
maintenance failures. NONE of those are in the statistics.

Fires and events happen when impairments are present. Put the valve in to 
isolate the vertical 4” riser, lock it open, install and properly test the 
tamper switch, and all will be as good as we can make it.

My $0.01 worth.

From: Rick Matsuda mailto:rick26...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:37 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: CPVC Exposed

Steve, those are great points. I was referencing only supervised valves.
Still your 2 cents is worth 2 dollars, and it trumps my 2 cents. Thanks for the 
education.
Rick Matsuda

On May 30, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

I think certain arguments and counterpoints need to be made. According to NFPA 
Research Foundation,  approximately 80% of all failures of sprinkler systems to 
successfully control fires are related to impairment of the water supply. Of 
those impairments, approximately 80% are due to wholy or partially closed 
valves.  That means roughly ⅔ of all system failures are due to closed valves. 
I learned that statistic when I was a contract instructor for NFPA, so that was 
about 16 years ago.  Ever since, I have been an outspoken advocate for cutting 
any potential weak link out of the chain of events, ESPECIALLY redundant and 
non-essential shutoff valves.

The chances of a valve being inadvertently left closed greatly exceed the 
occurrence rate of situations where we need to have every intersection of the 
water supply valved in every direction, particularly if those valves aren't 
supervised. I have pushed back hard against AHJs that wanted non-essential 
sectional valves on undergrounds, and also interior distribution piping. The 
situation described where I assume there are floor control assemblies off of 
the subject sprinkler riser is a perfect example: if that valve is left closed, 
which could occur a couple of different ways, then all of the sprinklers are 
without water supply. If there was such a serious impairment that the entire 
sprinkler supply riser needed to be taken out of service, that could be done 
under firewatch or a valve retrofitted while the system was being repaired and 
put back into service during that period. (And how often is that going to occur 
in the life of the system? Once? If ever?)  We simply can't program a solution 
for every potentential eventuality with regard to isolating sections of systems.

My 2¢ only,

Steve L.



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Plastics in Bin Box storage

[Steve Leyton]

 to FM Global 
either through payments or client  procurement collaborations. Scot Deal is 
financially linked to NFPA through subscription fees.

Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering
gms:  +420 606 872 129

Si vis pacem, para vinum




On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:47 PM Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
I want to be sure that I’ve got this right:   A client is moving into a 
brand-new ESFR protected warehouse space and they want to build a two level 
bin-box system.   I explained that they would have to fire protect below the 
walkways and they’ve come back to me asking whether or not building just the 
lower level of the system would alleviate the need to make sprinkler system 
improvements.   The CMSA and ESFR protection tables in Chapter 14 (2016 
edition) don’t include bin-box or plastics in the application range, Only 
palletized and solid pile, Classes 1-4.If they want to use a bin-box 
system, do they have to change roof sprinklers out for CMDA?  Or can the ESFR 
remain and CMDA sprinklers would be installed under walkways when they’re built?

I miss the little bitty book and pipe scheduled systems…

[cid:image001.jpg@01D98C97.16D44260]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.protectiondesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkCbZ5NbQ$>
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[Sprinklerforum] Plastics in Bin Box storage

[Steve Leyton]

I want to be sure that I've got this right:   A client is moving into a 
brand-new ESFR protected warehouse space and they want to build a two level 
bin-box system.   I explained that they would have to fire protect below the 
walkways and they've come back to me asking whether or not building just the 
lower level of the system would alleviate the need to make sprinkler system 
improvements.   The CMSA and ESFR protection tables in Chapter 14 (2016 
edition) don't include bin-box or plastics in the application range, Only 
palletized and solid pile, Classes 1-4.If they want to use a bin-box 
system, do they have to change roof sprinklers out for CMDA?  Or can the ESFR 
remain and CMDA sprinklers would be installed under walkways when they're built?

I miss the little bitty book and pipe scheduled systems...

[cid:image001.jpg@01D98997.9C22E5A0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: help

[Steve Leyton]

The Zurn 5000 is fully field adjustable and can be easily relaxed or restricted 
while setting.   Have you asked the local FD if they want to go conservative 
(i.e. use the theoretical residual pressure at full demand based on your 
calculations) as the inlet pressure or do they want to set the valve based on 
the actual flow during commissioning?  If you use the theoretical, there will 
be less restriction and the final setting will allow a higher than 100 residual 
(if that's the benchmark) and if you set the valve while only flowing one 
outlet, higher demand conditions would be lower.   The FD can adjust the valve 
during a fire fight, so it's all relative and they can also pump the system up 
to the limit of their capacity, there are contingencies built in.   You could 
also commission each valve at 300 GPM to add a bit of safety factor to the more 
liberal approach.   Check with the responding fire department to see if they 
have a policy or preference.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent any formal or informal 
interpretation of NFPA standards or the opinion of the NFPA 14 technical 
committee.


[cid:image003.jpg@01D685F2.A4401010]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training



From: August Hoffman [mailto:aug...@vvfire.com]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2023 12:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] help

Hello,

I am a little confused on calculating PRV hose valves and could use some help 
getting an answer.

I have a standpipe system with two standpipes fed by a pump; the lower floors 
require PRV hose valves due to higher pressure on the lower floors.

We are using the ZurnW5000 PRV hose valves for reference.

We need to add a new hose valve on one of the lower floors that require a PRV 
hose valve. For this we are required to flow 750pgm off that standpipe as well 
as 250 off the other standpipe. The 750gpm will include the new hose valve. 4 
Hose valves all flowing at 250gpm total. So far all good, no confusion.

Now the PRV setting is dependent on available pressure, if I were to determine 
the setting based on just one hose flowing it would be different than if I were 
to have 4 hose valves flowing.

My question is - What do I do to determine the setting? Do I flow one hose at 
250gpm to get the setting, then calc all 4 with their individual settings to 
make sure the system works? Or do I flow 4 hose valves to determine the 
settings accordingly?

My issue is - If I use the setting for just one hose flowing and in the field 
they need to flow 4 then they will not have enough pressure at that hose. If I 
use the setting from 4 hoses being flowed and in the field they end up flowing 
just one hose then there will be too much pressure flowing from that hose.

Second question - This mostly is for any AutoSprink users, how would you input 
these settings? I have tried it 2 ways getting very different results. The 
first test was setting the minimum pressure @ the PRVs residual pressure (say 
setting 14 takes my 194psi RES. down to 154psi RES so I set my min. pressure to 
154). The second test was to keep my minimum pressure @ 125psi but subtract 154 
from 194 and adding 40psi loss to my hose valve. The second test seems to make 
the most sense to me but I heard to do it both ways from different people.

I appreciate any advice.

Thank you,


August

Designer

NICET WBS 153613






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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Ohio Building and Fire Codes

[Steve Leyton]

Thanks Mike and everyone who gave it a thought.

From: Mike Morey 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 8:21 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Ohio Building and Fire Codes

https://com.ohio.gov/divisions-and-programs/industrial-compliance/boards/board-of-building-standards/building-codes-and-interpretations/a-rule-adoption-announcements

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-administrative-code/chapter-1301:7-7


Mike Morey

CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677

Project Manager • Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company

7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825

direct 260.487.7824 /  cell 260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991
email mmo...@shambaugh.com<mailto:mmo...@shambaugh.com>

[Image]

____
From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 11:10:41 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Ohio Building and Fire Codes

All: Urgently seeking to confirm what edition(s) of ICC code set and referenced 
NFPA standards currently enforced in Ohio. Anyone know of a link to adoption 
info? Steve Leyton, President Protection Design and Consulting T | 619. 255. 
8964 x 102
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All:



Urgently seeking to confirm what edition(s) of ICC code set and referenced NFPA 
standards currently enforced in Ohio.   Anyone know of a link to adoption info?





Steve Leyton, President

Protection Design and Consulting

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Ohio Building and Fire Codes

[Steve Leyton]

Idaho, Ohio… are they different?

THANK YOU!

From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 8:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Ohio Building and Fire Codes

Sorry. I’m from the South 

Ohio - ICC (iccsafe.org)<https://www.iccsafe.org/advocacy/adoptions-map/ohio/>



Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Designer IV
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
401 N 5th Street
Suite 448
Wausau, WI 54403
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 9:11 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Ohio Building and Fire Codes

All:

Urgently seeking to confirm what edition(s) of ICC code set and referenced NFPA 
standards currently enforced in Ohio. Anyone know of a link to adoption info?


Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T | 619.255.8964 x 102 | 
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com>
2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




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[Sprinklerforum] Ohio Building and Fire Codes

[Steve Leyton]

All:

Urgently seeking to confirm what edition(s) of ICC code set and referenced NFPA 
standards currently enforced in Ohio.   Anyone know of a link to adoption info?


Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  www.protectiondesign.com 
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Smallest footprint pump assembly

[Steve Leyton]

I'd guess it's about 100 GPM (or less), four residential sprinklers at Light 
Hazard density.  Project is just starting, schematic layouts only, but 
definitely don't need a 150 GPM pump...



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Fpdcdesign 
Date: 4/13/23 4:09 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Smallest footprint pump assembly

What is you max demand? What are the footprint dimensions of the pump you 
mentioned?



On Apr 12, 2023 at 7:18 PM, mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> 
wrote:

Seeking the very smallest footprint list fire pump possible, as we have only a 
4 residential sprinkler/light hazard demand and don’t need a big boost in 
pressure.   Project is a tiny 4 story on a single inner city lot, and wasn’t 
conceived with a pump, so space is at an absolute premium Smallest one I’ve 
found so far is a 7.5hp in-line vertical rated 150 gpm @40 psi.

Anyone have a baby pump set in their back pocket?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D96D58.5D01A9C0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Smallest footprint pump assembly

[Steve Leyton]

No, 13.  Talco informed me that their pumps are not listed. Their residential 
pump assemblies utilize listed pumps, but the assemblies are not listed per UL 
/ FM and NFPA 20.  I think it's because they use limited service controllers 
(?)  At least that's what they told me if I understood them and recall 
correctly.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com
Date: 4/13/23 5:08 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Smallest footprint pump assembly

I am assuming this is 13R, so a listed pump per 20?

As Richard mentioned, the Talco pumps are a good resource.

At 7.5hp 50gpm @ 60psi, I found this one.

https://talcofire.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/13-ULV50-Ra.pdf


R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service<https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature=3539=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Designer IV
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
401 N 5th Street
Suite 448
Wausau, WI 54403
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com<mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>
www.FergusonFire.com<http://www.fergusonfire.com/>

From: Richard Carr 
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2023 5:44 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Smallest footprint pump assembly

Have you looked at Talco.com pumps?

Richard M. Carr, SET
Project Manager/Design
Diboco Fire Sprinklers, Inc.
325 Jackson Loop Road
Flat Rock, NC  28731

rich...@diboco.com<mailto:rich...@diboco.com>
828-696-3400
828-696-2288 Fax
828-708-9118 Mobile



From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2023 7:19 PM
To: 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Smallest footprint pump assembly

Seeking the very smallest footprint list fire pump possible, as we have only a 
4 residential sprinkler/light hazard demand and don’t need a big boost in 
pressure.   Project is a tiny 4 story on a single inner city lot, and wasn’t 
conceived with a pump, so space is at an absolute premium Smallest one I’ve 
found so far is a 7.5hp in-line vertical rated 150 gpm @40 psi.

Anyone have a baby pump set in their back pocket?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D96DCE.48688440]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Smallest footprint pump assembly

[Steve Leyton]

Seeking the very smallest footprint list fire pump possible, as we have only a 
4 residential sprinkler/light hazard demand and don't need a big boost in 
pressure.   Project is a tiny 4 story on a single inner city lot, and wasn't 
conceived with a pump, so space is at an absolute premium Smallest one I've 
found so far is a 7.5hp in-line vertical rated 150 gpm @40 psi.

Anyone have a baby pump set in their back pocket?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D96D58.5D01A9C0]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Standpipes & FDC

[Steve Leyton]

Man, y’all are going off in all different directions.   As best as I can see, 
there are two areas of query here that aren’t actually congruent.

If the subject has areas that are conditioned, then a wet standpipe must be 
installed.   Areas subject to freezing shall be dry.   Doesn’t matter if they 
are manual, automatic or semi-automatic, just wet or dry depending on 
subjectivity to freezing.   (Yes to Travis’s comment below, supervisory air is 
now required for all dry standpipes.)

What I’m wondering is why the initial what-if is based on automatic-wet and 
manual dry?  Is this a high-rise building?   If not, why make the wet system 
automatic?   Once that’s resolved then…

FDC (or FDC’s) can be arranged so that you pump both wet and dry, but if you do 
then the dry side has to be properly drained and restored to its 
driest-possible condition.Which may if fact be the best arrangement because 
the fire department will otherwise have to sort through multiple FDC’s.   Now 
to me, that’s not too big of a challenge because all you need is love (signage, 
actually).But if this building experiences a fire and both wet-f and 
dry-served common floors, then you’re going to want an active water supply in 
ALL standpipes so the 1st team in can pick whatever stair they recon as the 
best one to use on the fire floor.

So like many subjective standpipe questions, this goes back to the responding 
FD’s preferences and attack strategies for buildings equipped with standpipes.  
 Pick an arrangement that is the best assimilation of value and reliability and 
propose it to them for consideration.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training





pumping all st

From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2023 9:01 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Standpipes & FDC

That is from NFPA 14, 2019 edition.  Check the 2016 edition.  It’s there as 
well.


Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD |
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<http://www.mepcad.com/> | m: 480.547.9348

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

Book appointment time in my calendar
https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad

From: Prahl, Craig mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 8:59 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Standpipes & FDC

Travis, what standard or code are you referencing?

I would question the requirement of providing supervisory air in a manual 
standpipe based on the language of 6.1.1 specifically addressing Dry 
standpipes.  A dry standpipe and a Manual standpipe are distinctly different.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:49 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Standpipes & FDC

All dry standpipes,  including manual standpipes, are required to have 
supervisory air to help protect against that situation described.  This was 
added, I believe, in the 2016 edition.  This is a snip from the 2019 edition.

6.1.1 Location of Dry Standpipes.
Dry standpipes shall be monitored in accordance with NFPA 72 with supervisory 
air pressure.
ENHANCED CONTENT
Collapse
Standpipe systems, including standalone manual standpipes, need to be 
supervised to ensure proper operation and integrity of the system. Supervision 
can be achieved through central station, a constantly attended local station, 
or by a signal or local alarm at the initiating device attached to the 
standpipe system.




Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD |
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mepcad.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!FsG36-XDvOQrgI_DHQGIVDG6qG0wUDytk9o-fCPhFdG51_cdUp7u8R9b_hwGMfSVSUMQZ1YdU_uNHp9p$>
 | m: 480.547.9348

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

Book appointment time in my calendar
https://calendly

[Sprinklerforum] Re: pipes Hydrostatic test in NFPA 2001: Clean Agents vs Dirty Agents: Risk Tolerance

[Steve Leyton]

Scot:

Love  the power of your intellect and you remain one of, if not the most 
curious adult I’ve ever met.  But…

Your lucid observations and clearly stated concerns regarding efficacy and 
reliability of chem/gas agent systems are tempered (if not obfuscated) by the 
social commentary, and this is not the venue for discussion of class 
separation, social status or the dissection of gestalt societal mores, unless 
they pertain to fire and life safety.   Nobody loves a good “stick it to the 
man” conversation more than me, but those usually involve alcohol and a setting 
sun…

Steve



From: å...  
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 12:10 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] pipes Hydrostatic test in NFPA 2001: Clean Agents vs 
Dirty Agents: Risk Tolerance



I too worked on projects where the client and EoR called for 'dirty agent' (aka 
clean agent) systems.
What did the client get with their decision?
  Systems egregiously more expensive, that didn't work and which released 
toxic gases.

It took more effort than it should have to prove:
  1).  the contract would require $60 million for 'dirty agent' systems... when 
 $6 million would have covered the cost of extending sprinkler piping in from 
the corridors
  and the costs of these gas-suppression systems... have not included 
the refills and ITM... which if done diligently, will exceed install costs in a 
matter of years

  2).  roughly 67% of these systems are unable to extinguish their design fire 
7 years after commissioning
  (thus the argument that 'dirty agents' provide SUPERIOR protection of 
electrical components is misleading, at best...
  I am waiting 22 years for someone to report to me the when, where, 
how much regarding sprinkler damage to an electronic equipment room...
  Most technicians don't know how to synchronize the detection, 
ventilation-stop, door-closing, barrier-integrity, evacuation alarm and agent 
release interfaces,
  not because they are dumb technicians, but because dumb engineers 
don't provide instructions [let alone good instructions] on these often 
forgotten interfaces)
  3).  NFPA 2001 declares as toxic, many of these fluorinated fire 
suppressants...which is a misdirection because water too is 'toxic in excess'.
FM-200 and NOVEC's real toxicity is not from breathing them in a 
confined space (though NFPA diligently cites it as such).
Their practical  'toxicity' is high global warming potentials and 
sustainability damage from production, storage, transportation, refill...

"There is nothing so useless as doing something well, that need not be 
done at all."  P. Drucker
 But from my reading of performance from gas fire-suppression systems 
over last 37-years,  I can not even say that these systems are done well...

In the end, the owners and EoR for the above project decided to 'stay the 
course' and spend the $600 million.
They chose to preserve their social status by avoiding a change-of-mind; 
they chose to euphemistically 'distribute the money into the economy...'
A sign of intelligence is willingness to change.  True ignorance is not a 
lack of knowledge, it is inability to change.
The client is not always right.

This is the challenge of AGI,
even if AGI points humans to what is the most energy efficient, materially 
sound decision,
humans bound by loyalties (i.e. to bosses, social status, jingoism, money) 
will corrupt AI's efficient decisions to their personal ends...

What is more important:  individuals or society?
the answer is:  all safety tolerance is dynamic, fluid.
The continual reevaluation (& changing of one's mind) as to what that 
tolerance should be is a better use of our time than drugs, bar-b-ques or video 
games.


Scot Deal
Excelsior Fire & Risk Engineering
gms: +420 606 872 129

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Too many sprinklers in the bathroom

[Steve Leyton]

If you can use residential sprinklers, you only have to flow 4 in the design 
area.

Steve L.



From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 12:08 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Too many sprinklers in the bathroom

I am working on a renovation to a college dormitory bathroom. The dorm rooms 
are around the perimeter and the common bathroom is in the central core. The 
college is replacing the existing partial height toilet and shower partitions 
with full height partitions with full height doors. This is in effect creating 
several small room, each requiring a sprinkler. The number of sprinklers in 
this 410 sqft space is increasing from 4 to 15. This will be a hydraulic 
nightmare. The rooms were designed to NFPA 13 Residential and I have not yet 
found a calc sign that included the bathroom. My guess is that the whole system 
would be undersized.

Since this is not in a dwelling unit and is on a common corridor, 9.2.4.1 does 
not apply.

Room design does not work because all of the sprinklers are either in the space 
or the communicating space.

I have to calculate a 1500 sqft area in order to eliminate the sprinklers in 
the stalls and showers.

Per Chapter 12, residential sprinklers can only be used in dwelling units and 
adjacent corridors, so that design is out.

Any thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: HVLS Fans

[Steve Leyton]

George Church is still missed.

I have an FM fire test report regarding sprinkler activation around HVLS fans 
(somewhere, at least).Bottom line is that the fans create a vortex of 
moving and thus cooler air over and around the perimeter of the blade diameter; 
the report has thermographic images of the air temps during the burns.This 
cold air mass retards sprinkler activation times, which is why the prescriptive 
requirements are to symmetrically surround the fan with sprinklers in hopes of 
getting activations in the first, but if not then the second ring around the 
fan, should there be a fire working more or less under it.

George prolly would have talked the customer out of putting up the fans…

SL

From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 1:33 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: HVLS Fans

Good ole George!

You may or may not remember a sprinkler tradition, Next month was pick on 
George month. We interjected his name for all examples. 

Thanks again for the look.

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Designer IV
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
401 N 5th Street
Suite 448
Wausau, WI 54403
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com
www.FergusonFire.com

From: jeff.norm...@mfpdesign.com 
mailto:jeff.norm...@mfpdesign.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:18 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: HVLS Fans

Skyler,

Interesting info there. That should be in the commentary in NFPA. Would be most 
helpful.


Thanks,

Jeff Normand
Fergusen Fire Design


From: Skyler Bilbo mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 3:13 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: HVLS Fans

Matt,

I barely remember one of the guys I looked up to talking about these fans early 
on in my career (George Church).  The research is eye opening for the 
importance of the interlock.  As far as I remember, the system failed every 
time (a boat load of heads were activated) when the fan did not shut down.  
This thread is a good reminder for all of us to insist that the interlock be 
installed.  I see it missing more often than I find one installed out in the 
real world.  It helps to tell the owner that the full scale fire tests showed 
the fire sprinkler system failed every time without it.  They usually take it 
more seriously when they know there is a very real/serious reason you are 
telling them about this requirement.

Literally as I wrote this, a fitter came in my office to ask about a big a** 
fan being added at a car dealership we're doing.  These things are everywhere.


Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
[Image removed by sender.]
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax

sbi...@wenteplumbing.com
www.wenteplumbing.com


On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 2:45 PM 
mailto:matthew.will...@ferguson.com>> wrote:
Hummm. That’s a fair point.

I viewed the center SSU as a “non-issue” as @ 36”, the fan/blades are not an 
obstruction per the book for an SSU.

The research seems to deal mainly with the shutdown interlock.

I was just curious as to location and impact, or lack thereof, as no numbers 
are given for the X/Y planes.

The EOR’s note could be read a couple ways, so I will work them for a more 
compliant look.

Thanks Skyler!

R/
Matt

Please rate our customer 
service

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET
Engineering Designer IV
FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC
A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC
401 N 5th Street
Suite 448
Wausau, WI 54403
C: 307-236-8249
matthew.will...@ferguson.com
www.FergusonFire.com

From: Skyler Bilbo mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 1:32 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: HVLS Fans

IMHO, you are not meeting the intent of the standard with the layout you 
described.  The standard calls for centering the fan between four adjacent 
sprinklers.  Similar to below.  Your layout is approximately centered below a 
single sprinkler, not the 4 most adjacent.

OO
  X
OO



Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
[Image removed by sender.]
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax

sbi...@wenteplumbing.com

[Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version

[Steve Leyton]

Correct – since 2020 editions, NFPA is only selling hard copies again.


[cid:image003.jpg@01D685F2.A4401010]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training



From: Derrek Crigler [mailto:der...@adfiresprinklers.com]
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 7:05 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: - NFPA13:2022 pdf version

You can only buy a hard copy or use NFPA link. No more PDF.
Thank you,

Derrek Crigler
A Fire Sprinklers
858-277-3473


On Mar 6, 2023, at 7:01 PM, Brett Peters 
mailto:br...@proudline.ca>> wrote:

NFPA.org

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 7:57 PM Phong - Indochine Engineering 
mailto:ph...@indoeng.com>> wrote:
Dear All,

Please can you advise where I can buy the pdf file online. Many thanks.

Regards,
Le Vu Phong
Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525

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--
Thank You
Brett Peters
PFPS Ltd
(780) 777 0568
Sent From My iPhone

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: High School Lab rooms

[Steve Leyton]

Can’t say for sure what your regional best practices might be or whether the 
AHJ has a policy, but out here in CA we have a standardized policy and code 
amendment set for K-12 occupancies, both public and private.   The trigger for 
us is whether or not there is pressurized gas to the room – science labs that 
we see in new construction projects are amazingly well-fixturized and that 
includes burners and valved supply connections.   This also includes shop 
classes like jewelry making and welding where gas is on tap.

Generally, we don’t see high volume storage of flammable/combustible liquids 
and the CA Building Code precludes any haz-mats in schools except for extremely 
small and tightly controlled quantities.Where we have a “lab storage” or 
“science storage” room, it’s usually just a designation and doesn’t contain 
non-exempt amounts of flammable liquids that would trigger an H, but that does 
happen with adult education facilities from time to time.

Depending on the actual use and presence of potential sources of combustion and 
fuel, OH1 or OH2 is a good practice…

My 2¢ only,
Steve L.



From: BILL MENSTER 
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2023 8:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] High School Lab rooms

I'm trying to determine the correct occupancy classification for a high school 
science lab room.  I am using 13-2016.  I recall previous editions of 13-A.5.3 
listed Laboratories as OH1 but 2016 makes no reference to labs. Would this fall 
under A.5.2 (5) Educational - Light Hazard?


Thank You





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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 6" Pipe & Z-Purlins

[Steve Leyton]

Ann:

To unsubscribe, send an email to:  
sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>

Information about subscribing/unsubscribing can be found under Sprinkler Forum 
on the Technical Services pull-down menu at AFSA's website home page.

Steve L.

From: Ann Fuller 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 12:33 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] FW: 6" Pipe & Z-Purlins

Please remove this email address from your sprinklerforum email list.

Ann Fuller
Admin

Veritas Fire Engineering, Inc.
12364 West Alameda Pkwy. Suite 135
Lakewood, Colorado 80228
303.985.3300 Ext. 201
303.985.5594 Fax

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 1:28 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 6" Pipe & Z-Purlins

Yep, leaning towards something like that.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbvssystemsinc.com%2f=E,1,fplyasLNk_sUx5ZDcD3iG3U9HsUBE5-DmjF4xM7h7xVeco8pshEoPL56IUQvbRDcm3iin5KzuVeCr7f2jcMeS3A1EpD8gmo7bffVqQ9K8vK3XulFRg,,=1>


From: Hinson, Ryan mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 3:06 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 6" Pipe & Z-Purlins

How about a side beam bracket (listed to 8") with ½" thru-bolt, backing-nut, 
and washer with drilled bolt hole through the center 1/3 of the purlin spine; 
½" bevel washer between the ½" ATR nut and the horizontal leg of the side beam 
bracket as required to counter sloped purlin deck; supporting presumed level 
6"...hanging from every purlin?

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
O 612-900-3755 \  M 763-688-4045 \  F 952-229-2923
rhin...@burnsmcd.com<mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com>  \  
burnsmcd.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.burnsmcd.com%2f=E,1,brwJ0xR-CHZI1y90yJvDHs3lq03hQMMnwUZ_9li9ULnYiHLAJJLtpXxxUPprSx-m8DXBRgAdbrsQ5XJI8vTxvLA0xaH8_eJL2WoWiRPqI5iYjJkTBjQkORkF3A,,=1>
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500  \  Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437
*Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout

[cid:image001.png@01D93FA8.A449B5D0]

From: Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 1:55 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 6" Pipe & Z-Purlins

Anybody have any suggestions for hanging 6" pipe from Z-purlins? Top beam 
clamps are not an option & Sammy's are only good up to 4" pipe.

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbvssystemsinc.com%2F=05%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7Cf8de4d2a14b44331b32808db0dfc545b%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C0%7C638119150051250037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=4LMXxpyxSTU2M9sW00KIySqvOj2fdSyn%2F8izgiY3WAA%3D=0>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Rockford Sprinkler Wrench

[Steve Leyton]

Happy End of the NFL Season to All:

This isn't a technical issue, but I figure this group is a solid resource pool: 
 I have a vintage Rockford (Worcester, MA) spare sprinkler box with 12 matched 
1928 sprinklers, but no wrench.  If anyone knows of one that could be acquired, 
please mail me off-forum.

Steve L.


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Roof Vents Instead of Sprinklers?

[Steve Leyton]

Roof vents that are coordinated with the sprinklers, i.e. rated to operate at a 
higher temperature than the sprinklers, shouldn’t encumber sprinkler operation 
in most scenarios.   Roof vents IN LIEU of sprinklers is… just dopey.

My 2¢,
Steve L.

From: å...  
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2023 5:54 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Roof Vents Instead of Sprinklers?


Opening vents in the roof should provide more oxygen flow.
   'the more flow the more go...'
Most sprinklers were never tested or certified with open smoke vents,
Unknown factor is how wind direction affects roof ventilation.  Depends on if 
wind is leeward or windward to the open side of the roof vent.

Probably owner will not get permit from AHJ for roof vent option (Pb > 0.95).
Probably owner will get random future inspection from the building / fire 
department if they high-pile storage without permit (Pb > 0.9).

Is there a self-insured option for the owner, with liability for damages to 
neighbors and environment in case of fire,  with the jurisdiction wiping its 
hand clean as to responsibility for emergency response fire protection?  
Probably not (Pb > 0.98).

Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
gsm: +420 606 872 129


On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Brian Harris 
mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote:
We recently did a “storage” building and protected it for OH-2 per the EOR. 
System is installed and now the owner says they want to use it for high piled 
storage, AHJ says nay-nay. We were asked to provide pricing to upgrade the 
system to ESFR but the city supply will not support it. Owner has just come 
back to us saying they are “just going to cut vents in the roof instead”. I 
didn’t know that was an option…. Thoughts?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2021 IBC

[Steve Leyton]

Because it’s a MAINTENANCE standard, not design.  Also, isn’t it a recommended 
practice?

SML

From: Ken Wagoner 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 9:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 2021 IBC

Isn't it interesting that Chapter 35 of the '21 IBC has an extensive list of 
referenced standards, as does Chapter 80 of the '21 IFC, NFPA 25 is not 
referenced in the IBC at all.  -13 is, -13D is, -13R is and many others.  No 
-25.

h.
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the 
website
On 1/20/2023 10:15 AM, Anthony Carrizosa wrote:
It is in the IFC not IBC, you can view it online for free.. states NFPA 25-2020 
Edition.


Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D92CB0.E3B69400]
https://archerconstruction.com



From: Tom Duross 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 8:07 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 2021 IBC

Hi Campers,

Is there anyone out there in forum land working under the 2021 IBC that can 
tell me what edition of NFPA #25 is referenced?  Can’t seem to find it online.

Thanks,
TD





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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage

[Steve Leyton]

130 sq. ft.   It ends up being an OH2 system with a .40 proof calc as your gift 
with purchase.

I'm not sure what 100 sq. ft. gets me if I stay with a 5.6 sprinkler, or even 
an 8.0.   If we're worried about droplet size (the more significant criterion), 
we'd have to go to 11.2 and the overflow with so many open sprinklers in the 
model is a deal killer for this type of system.   So we have run with 5.6 or 
8.0 depending on how good/bad the water is, but I'm not aware of any systems 
we've designed that operated, so don't have any field data.   Put it this way:  
nobody's aware of a wave of failures nationwide of standard spray sprinklers 
not controlling or suppressing fires in self-storage facilities.

SL

From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 9:06 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage

I like this approach. What spacing do you use on these. Are you sticking to 100 
and 12' max or are you going to 130?

I know most of them are so cut up that you really can't get greater than 100 sq 
ft in most.

Get Outlook for 
iOS<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2faka.ms%2fo0ukef=E,1,pS77SdBulcMpIy8elxztYeVFnkOhxDUrvN5N5tM6YhOFsaMk8dXD4iWa2PpEvSEFP7uIQpSJPTnb5Ca6X2q3uXWHnHrQ4XvJLEgT4B2zYdDDRg,,=1>

From: Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 10:03:01 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage


Travis raises the ultimate good point regarding self-storage:  MANY small 
businesses use these facilities to store more hazardous stuff than the 
household goods most of us think of when considering self-storage.   Let's use 
a small discount furniture store as a beta: they may store upholstered 
backstock in a mini-storage cell, including mattresses and box springs.



So we have Expanded Group A more than 5', but... does that define the entire 
facility?  Methinks not, so what we do (and we actually work on a lot of these 
in the Southwest) is propose a double density to the fire official.  The 
premise is OH2 is adequate as a basis of design overall (and I believe that it 
is) but we also include a second design area composed of the most hydraulically 
demanding 3 contiguous cells at .40 density.   If a cell loaded with plastics 
lights up, the system will have the capacity to deliver a high density on both 
sides of it as well as over the involved fuel.



Self-storage sprinkler layouts often create OH design areas with 35 sprinklers 
in them, so proving the .40 across four cells generally has no effect on the 
overall system sizing.   It's more of a comfort enhancement drug...



My opinion only,

Steve L.



From: Travis Mack mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 7:35 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage



In my opinion, these are often protected by systems for OH2.  However, I 
believe they should be EH2 at a minimum.  There are too many unknowns of what 
will be in the storage units.



Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

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From: Shawn Foor mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 7:46 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage



I would say minimum OHII can also see EHII.  I am assuming would have to remain 
dry so you have to increase to 1950 and depending on slope of roof maybe even 
2535 sqft



On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 8:39 AM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:

What is the latest thought on the demand for a self storage location? I am 
working on an existing location with 8ft high "rooms" with no ceiling (not a 
Pod type).



The existing system consists of two 1920s or 30s dry pipe, pipe schedule 
system. 6" DPVs. I do not know if any hydraulic calculations have been done 
previously. The plan is to add a backflow preventer and an FDC, but I will need 
to do some analysis for the addition of the backflow. I'm trying to avoid as 
much of a horror show as possible. Normally I would say that this would be a 
great job for my competition but I can't get out of it.



Also, each dry valve has a 6" bypass around it with a normally closed OS







Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

S

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage

[Steve Leyton]

Travis raises the ultimate good point regarding self-storage:  MANY small 
businesses use these facilities to store more hazardous stuff than the 
household goods most of us think of when considering self-storage.   Let’s use 
a small discount furniture store as a beta: they may store upholstered 
backstock in a mini-storage cell, including mattresses and box springs.

So we have Expanded Group A more than 5’, but… does that define the entire 
facility?  Methinks not, so what we do (and we actually work on a lot of these 
in the Southwest) is propose a double density to the fire official.  The 
premise is OH2 is adequate as a basis of design overall (and I believe that it 
is) but we also include a second design area composed of the most hydraulically 
demanding 3 contiguous cells at .40 density.   If a cell loaded with plastics 
lights up, the system will have the capacity to deliver a high density on both 
sides of it as well as over the involved fuel.

Self-storage sprinkler layouts often create OH design areas with 35 sprinklers 
in them, so proving the .40 across four cells generally has no effect on the 
overall system sizing.   It’s more of a comfort enhancement drug…

My opinion only,
Steve L.

From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 7:35 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage

In my opinion, these are often protected by systems for OH2.  However, I 
believe they should be EH2 at a minimum.  There are too many unknowns of what 
will be in the storage units.

Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD |
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mepcad.com%2f=E,1,VnUdVENxHi5EfReXNlDlMm53-i0iQ4aDqDmBEIrsdvcjraAvysTkEA3cdancd5C-YuLOO1Kazh8mbILb0XRi2ySj-bsvuYzh5A2J3gyhxnVz40eaVmnL6SFb59k,=1>
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From: Shawn Foor mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2023 7:46 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Self Storage

I would say minimum OHII can also see EHII.  I am assuming would have to remain 
dry so you have to increase to 1950 and depending on slope of roof maybe even 
2535 sqft

On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 8:39 AM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What is the latest thought on the demand for a self storage location? I am 
working on an existing location with 8ft high “rooms” with no ceiling (not a 
Pod type).

The existing system consists of two 1920s or 30s dry pipe, pipe schedule 
system. 6” DPVs. I do not know if any hydraulic calculations have been done 
previously. The plan is to add a backflow preventer and an FDC, but I will need 
to do some analysis for the addition of the backflow. I’m trying to avoid as 
much of a horror show as possible. Normally I would say that this would be a 
great job for my competition but I can’t get out of it.

Also, each dry valve has a 6” bypass around it with a normally closed OS



Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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--
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FOOR DESIGN, LLC
10208 E 98TH ST
TULSA, OK 74133
P:918-237-1400

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Another phantom flow question

[Steve Leyton]

True, but if the shoe fits…

From: Kevin Hall 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 12:00 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Another phantom flow question

Let's remember to maintain the order and decorum of the SprinklerFORUM.

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Sr. Manager, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
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On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 2:51 PM Kevin Wilson 
mailto:ke...@buildingsprinkler.com>> wrote:
I missed the 7 below! I would agree and should send this to the fuck tards at 
Extreme

Kevin Wilson
Building Sprinkler, Inc.
47187 Wild Clover Circle
Sioux Falls, SD 57107
Cell 605-310-0820
Office 605-334-1880
Fax 605-543-5529

From: Kevin Hall mailto:kh...@firesprinkler.org>>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 11:42 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Another phantom flow question

You only need to calculate those 5 sprinklers (maybe just the 3 above or 2 
below depending on the exact configuration). Since the area is protected by a 
single line of sprinklers, there is a special design area permitted.

11.2.3.4.2*

Where an area is to be protected by a single line of sprinklers, the design 
area shall include all sprinklers on the line up to a maximum of seven.


The above is my opinion as a member of the Technical Committee on Automatic 
Sprinkler Systems and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in 
accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is 
provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this 
opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official 
position of the NFPA or its technical committees. AFSA cannot provide design or 
consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be 
considered, nor relied upon, as such.

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Sr. Manager, Engineering and Technical Services
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On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:27 PM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This is one of my least favorite parts of the standard and the one I most 
disagree with. I have a canopy that has been added to the front of a daycare 
center. The footprint of the canopy is about 174 sqft. The construction is wood 
framed and has a peaked roof with about a 8:12 pitch. The canopy is separated 
from the main building by a brick and block wall (12” thick) with no openings. 
My plan is to protect it with a small dry pipe system. The system design 
consists of 1 

[Sprinklerforum] Underground FDC auto drain

[Steve Cox]

Since the auto drain on an FDC needs to be at the lowest point after the check valve, where do we install it on an underground, remote FDC?  We need to have access to it to service it. Steve CoxCox Fire Systems, LLC817-633-3000 Office817-470-9398 Cellst...@coxfire.netImportant/Confidential: This communication and any files or documents attached to it are intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. It contains information that may be privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication, you are hereby notified that the copying, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication by mistake, please notify the sender immediately by electronic mail and destroy all forms of this communication (electronic or paper). It is also the recipient’s responsibility to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are free of any virus or other defect that might negatively affect a recipient’s computer system, and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for loss or damage in the event such a virus or defect exists.Texas Fire Sprinkler Certificate of Registration SCR-G-2255435Texas Fire Alarm Certificate of Registration ACR-2176114Texas Fire Extinguisher Certificate of Registration ECR-2175786Texas Fire Sprinkler License # RME-G-2255433Texas Fire Alarm License #APS-2463287Texas Fire Extinguisher License # FEL-A-2364622
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply

[Steve Leyton]

If it's serving a sprinkler system only and the main drain cannot flow a 
high-enough volume to match system demand, then you have to configure a means 
of testing that will, whether it's on the building or underground.   If the 
building is equipped with a fire pump and/or standpipes, you can check multiple 
boxes at a time by flow testing those components and the backflow 
simultaneously.

On the one hand, this ongoing conversation is getting close to kicking a dead 
horse, as I sense that many are making this a bigger deal than it has to be.   
On the other hand, if discussion like this can help form a set of standard/best 
practices, then this requirement can be readily incorporated into new builds 
and hopefully retrofitted as needed to existing systems.

Our industry is plagued by failed maintenance issues and we all should be as 
aware of and proactive as we can be on issues that facilitate implementation 
and enforcement of NFPA 25 nationwide.

Steve L.



From: Eric Rieve 
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2022 10:40 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply

You'll probably get some pretty diverse answers depending on how one views the 
intent behind the provision. The commentary advises using the full diameter of 
the riser as the outlet size to theoretically allow the test to be performed 
without needing to measure the flow with a pitot or hose monster setup. While 
this is true, and does adequately provide for exercising the backflow checks, 
it seems very wasteful to install a setup capable of flowing system demand and 
then not provide a few more inexpensive components that would allow the setup 
to accurately measure the flow (and pressure) from a hydraulic design 
perspective. While NFPA 25 doesn't require this accurate measurement 
specifically for the backflow exercise, it does require verifying the system 
demand from the private water main feeding that backflow at 5 year intervals.

Further, a fully functional flow test assembly has immeasurable uses when it 
comes to system modifications, and future water supply degradation testing that 
may someday be necessary. Finally, when filling out your aboveground 
certificate for system acceptance. I'd much rather know that I flowed system 
demand and maintained the appropriate residual pressure for the design as 
opposed to probably way overflowing demand through a full port opening and 
having an unusable pressure gauge reading.

Every riser is different obviously, and we've arranged them all sorts of ways 
depending on the situation. Sometimes we've used the single main drain and just 
installed a brass NPT x NST adapter on the exterior fitting. Other times we've 
installed one or two 2.5" NPT angle valves on saddles directly after the 
backflow with nipples through the wall to NST adapters on the exterior. 
Sometimes if the riser room has an exterior door we've just thrown two 2.5" 
angle hose valves on saddles or a grooved Siamese inlet. Our larger warehouse 
systems generally get a butterfly valve inside and full derby manifold on the 
exterior when they start getting into the 800gpm+ range. If you install an 
arrangement that allows for accurate waterflow measurement then you can prove 
your assembly meets the requirements.

Hope this helps!

Eric
Rieve Fire Protection


From: Dennis Wilson 
mailto:dwil...@blackhawksprinklers.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2022 12:01 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply

On backflow testing, NFPA 13 (2019) 16.14.5.1 states the backflow needs to be 
tested at system demand.
I have a hard cover copy, and in it the question was asked, if a 2" main drain 
would be sufficient, to do the backflow test.
After their explanation, they say it basically needs to be the same size as 
your system riser, and using a larger drain valve would be a waste since the 
drain test is to be done more often.
So what we've been doing is running a pipe outside the same size as the 
backflow, using a normally closed butterfly valve. Sometime routing around the 
FDC if it's a Storz. model.

Our thought now is why not run several 2" drains out the wall.
With 2½" & 3" backflows, we increase the main drain to 2" which is usually 
enough for system demand. Can always run a separate 1" insp. test also.
With 4" backflows, you already need (1) 2" main drain, why not run a separate 
one for testing, that will give you (2) 2" openings, and run a third if you 
have a 6" backflow.
And with multiple systems, run the main drains out separately instead of 
combining them together before you go out.

Does this sound feasible, since all we're really trying to do is exercise the 
springs in the checks?


From: Ed Kramer mailto:e...@ba

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates

[Steve Leyton]

We’ve seen our first pieces of Sch. 10 fail from MIC recently, but that’s a 
different ballgame and NONE of the parent steel alloys factor that in their CRR 
ratings.   I’d like offer another angle if I may, because this thread has been 
in the context of contractor and product practices only so far.   Please keep 
in mind that for the owner of a building, there’s more to issues like this than 
just means and methods.

We are the EOR and specifier for a LOT of publicly bid work, and for our 
institutional clients have been specifying 10 and 40 only for 25 year.   I’m 
sure that Sch. 7 advocates won’t necessarily like or agree with that approach, 
but unlike most consulting engineering firms, we have NEVER been the target of 
a claim or lawsuit.  In fact, we’ve only had to put our insurance company on 
notice of a potential claim one time in 27 years.   Needless to say, I’m proud 
of that of record and from our current perspective if it ain’t broke don’t fix 
it.

I want to emphasize that there is NOTHING wrong with Sch. 7 and I’m not 
suggesting that it’s inferior.  When I was in contracting, we used a lot of 
Sch. 7.  In fact, I still remember the day that a rep from American Tube & 
Conduit brought in a piece of DynaFlow for the first time – we were amazed.  
But the fact is that this material is more subject to oxygen cell corrosion and 
MIC.  As a consultant, corrosion control service provider and also as an expert 
witness, I’ve managed and observed the removal of a lot of leaky pipes over the 
years and have only seen Sch. 7 being subject to the various types of 
irreparable damage that necessitates R

If maintained at a high level from the time it’s commissioned into service, 
there’s no reason not to use it but… that’s the wildcard.   Developers and 
owners of the built environment seem to only hate one thing more than fire 
sprinklers, and that’s having to ITM their fire sprinklers.   Until such time 
as we can say that our universal sprinklered environment is aggressively 
maintained in good condition, this issue will not go away and it’s fair for 
owners to acknowledge the realities of the situation and specify 10 and 40 
only, IMHO.


Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




From: tston...@comcast.net 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 10:14 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates

Only that the owner is worried about pipe failures using schedule 10. I don’t 
know where is information is coming from. In my 34 years in this industry I 
have never heard or seen Schedule 10 pipe failures on water filled sprinkler 
systems unless they freeze. The only other scenario is the use of Schedule 10 
on dry pipe systems which we all are learning is for the short term unless you 
are charging that pipe with Nitrogen.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
 CELL: (802) 373-0638
 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:01 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates

Did the specifying engineer state why he/she wants only Sch 40?



On Nov 22, 2022 at 12:14 PM, mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>> 
wrote:
I always use the Corrosion Resistance Ratio (CRR) argument.  Basically, the 
thickness of schedule 10 piping is greater than or equal to the thickness of 
the first exposed thread of threaded schedule 40.  Using this argument, 
schedule 10 should theoretically last at least as long as threaded schedule 40. 
 You can't use this argument if they call for grooved schedule 40.


Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
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On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 10:14 AM 
mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
Are there an

[Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

[Steve Mackinnon]

Hi Brett,

We have a similar note on our proposal, but this is a fire station with the 
town and they don’t acknowledge exclusions or exceptions with this type of bid.

We did contemplate submitting the engineers layout to the fire marshal and have 
them kick it back due to lack of safety margin… we might still go this route.

Thank you for your help!

Steven

From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 11:24 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

We always put a note in our quotes that our pricing is based on an adequate 
water supply, if the water supply won't support the pipe sizing the engineer 
put on the tender drawings then ask for a change to contract based on the water 
supply from the water purveyor being inadequate to support tender documents.
Mechanical engineers never like being told they are wrong, have to be creative 
and give the mechanical engineer an out, so it's not their fault, better chance 
of getting that change order.


Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
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On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 8:39 AM Steve Mackinnon 
mailto:ste...@hartcorn.com>> wrote:
Good morning everyone,

There is a project that was put out for bid as a “plans and specifications”, 
showing approximate locations of heads, pipe sizes, etc…

We were awarded the project and found out the engineer who laid out the bid set 
did not adequality size the sprinkler pipe for the water supply. The hydraulic 
calculations will not support the pipe sizing noted on the bid plan.

Now we are trying to get an extra for the additional material and upcharge for 
larger pipe. The engineer has rejected our extra and stated we are responsible 
for providing a “Code complaint” system, and has gone as far as to show us a 
note on the bid plan stating such.

We feel this is wrong and it shouldn’t be the installing contractor 
responsibility to pre-calculate or redesign “plans and specifications” during 
the bidding process. But I can’t find anything that backs us up in our argument.

Does anyone have experience with this situation?

Thank you in advance.

Steven MacKinnon

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

[Steve Mackinnon]

Hi Tim,

The contract is signed, I would say we haven’t spoken with out insurance 
provider. I’ll mention this to my boss and see what they think.

Thank you for your help!

Steven

From: tston...@comcast.net 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 11:19 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

Steve,  You didn’t say if a contract has been signed.
If you have not signed any documents or contracts then walk away from the 
project.
Have you discussed this project with your company Insurance provider?

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
 CELL: (802) 373-0638
 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>

From: Steve Mackinnon mailto:ste...@hartcorn.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:39 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] plans and specifications vs design build

Good morning everyone,

There is a project that was put out for bid as a “plans and specifications”, 
showing approximate locations of heads, pipe sizes, etc…

We were awarded the project and found out the engineer who laid out the bid set 
did not adequality size the sprinkler pipe for the water supply. The hydraulic 
calculations will not support the pipe sizing noted on the bid plan.

Now we are trying to get an extra for the additional material and upcharge for 
larger pipe. The engineer has rejected our extra and stated we are responsible 
for providing a “Code complaint” system, and has gone as far as to show us a 
note on the bid plan stating such.

We feel this is wrong and it shouldn’t be the installing contractor 
responsibility to pre-calculate or redesign “plans and specifications” during 
the bidding process. But I can’t find anything that backs us up in our argument.

Does anyone have experience with this situation?

Thank you in advance.

Steven MacKinnon

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

[Steve Mackinnon]

Hey Craig,

With so many bids coming across my desk it would next to impossible to review 
all bid projects top to bottom… we typically RFI what we can and go from there, 
but bid schedules have been shrinking over the past few years.

The extra or the additional work is considerable… if we were to absorb the 
cost, we would defiantly lose money on the job.

This project is a sub prime, so each contract is independent… there is a GC on 
the job, but they have almost no say or involvement. It’s sad.

Thank you for your comments and helpful tips!

Steven


From: Prahl, Craig 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 11:20 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: plans and specifications vs design build

If the engineer had no idea how to layout out a system and size pipe, he 
shouldn’t have done it at all.   Now if his goal was to be sure there was space 
allocated for the sprinkler system, for example he was part of a REVIT project, 
he should have stated that sizes were preliminary and subject to verification 
during shop drawing development or he should not have provided sizes at all.   
I’ve seen this happen and have asked the engineer how they came up with the 
sizes, typically they just guessed based on no real experience, just something 
they did “on the last job”.  Those are the ones who will ask me “What size 
“header” do you run in a typical warehouse?”  Yeah, right, like there is such a 
thing as a “typical” warehouse.

On the engineering side of things we get limited by projects as not being an 
essential provider and often given very few hours to “issue something”.  So, 
our deliverables to the contractor can vary greatly in the amount of 
information provided.  However, I have seen numerous times where someone was 
tasked with producing a fire protection deliverable who had no business doing 
the work.  But that’s a management decision I can’t control.

As a contractor bidding on something like this, if there were no preliminary 
calculations provided, I would have issued an RFI for clarification on how the 
pipes were sized then bid accordingly.   The fact that the system won’t work as 
depicted in the design documents should qualify for a Change Order if your bid 
was based on the information shown on the drawings, regardless of his CYA note. 
 That CYA note is just stupid, as it is a requirement by law as part of the 
responsibility as a legally permitted license holder.

If the cost upcharge is significant, and if your contract has arbitration as an 
option, I might toss that idea around as a possible option to settle the 
matter.  You didn’t say if you’re working directly with an owner or through a 
GC, as that can also make a difference on how this is handled.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS


From: Steve Mackinnon mailto:ste...@hartcorn.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:39 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] plans and specifications vs design build

Good morning everyone,

There is a project that was put out for bid as a “plans and specifications”, 
showing approximate locations of heads, pipe sizes, etc…

We were awarded the project and found out the engineer who laid out the bid set 
did not adequality size the sprinkler pipe for the water supply. The hydraulic 
calculations will not support the pipe sizing noted on the bid plan.

Now we are trying to get an extra for the additional material and upcharge for 
larger pipe. The engineer has rejected our extra and stated we are responsible 
for providing a “Code complaint” system, and has gone as far as to show us a 
note on the bid plan stating such.

We feel this is wrong and it shouldn’t be the installing contractor 
responsibility to pre-calculate or redesign “plans and specifications” during 
the bidding process. But I can’t find anything that backs us up in our argument.

Does anyone have experience with this situation?

Thank you in advance.

Steven MacKinnon



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[Sprinklerforum] plans and specifications vs design build

[Steve Mackinnon]

Good morning everyone,

There is a project that was put out for bid as a “plans and specifications”, 
showing approximate locations of heads, pipe sizes, etc…

We were awarded the project and found out the engineer who laid out the bid set 
did not adequality size the sprinkler pipe for the water supply. The hydraulic 
calculations will not support the pipe sizing noted on the bid plan.

Now we are trying to get an extra for the additional material and upcharge for 
larger pipe. The engineer has rejected our extra and stated we are responsible 
for providing a “Code complaint” system, and has gone as far as to show us a 
note on the bid plan stating such.

We feel this is wrong and it shouldn’t be the installing contractor 
responsibility to pre-calculate or redesign “plans and specifications” during 
the bidding process. But I can’t find anything that backs us up in our argument.

Does anyone have experience with this situation?

Thank you in advance.

Steven MacKinnon

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 14 Hose Systems

[Steve Leyton]

I’m sorry it took a couple days to formulate a response to this – hopefully 
it’s still of value.

“Wall Hydrant” is not a defined term in NFPA 14, but we often refer to 
wall-mounted hose OUTLETS as “wall hydrants”.   The are usually 2-way, 4x2½x2½ 
but to my knowledge, there are no code requirements for their installation.
Most often, this arrangement is undertaken at the direction of the serving fire 
department, and my experience has been that we almost exclusively use them to 
mitigate hose pull distance deficiencies when measuring fire department access. 
 The pipe sizing would be dependent on the flow rate, which would be 
performance-based (or as specified by the FD) because it’s not in any 
prescriptive code.  So a 4” loop might service such a connection or it might 
not, depending on water supply and configuration.

The issue of flow rate isn’t based on area, it’s based on the number of 
standpipes in the building.   Your question is predicated on +80,000 area, but 
is this a multi-storied building or a large single/two-story building?   If 
it’s not a multi-storied building, the question can’t really be answered in the 
context of the NFPA 14 standard because the standard doesn’t apply.If you 
still need help, please describe the building a little better such as # of 
stories, area per floor, whether standpipes are being required by the FD or per 
code since it’s unsprinklered, who’s asking for a wall hydrant, etc.

The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training









From: Luis Perea 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2022 2:53 PM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] NFPA 14 Hose Systems

Hello to all,

I have a couple of questions regarding the NFPA 14 Hose systems,
For a hose only fire protection system based in NFPA 14 is it possible to 
install the wall hydrants with a 4” pipe supply? Considering I have the 4” loop 
inside the building.

If I need to strictly supply  the wall hydrant with a 6” pipe I need to change 
the interior loop to a 6” and increase the cost considerably. (the only wall 
hydrant fm approved is in 6”).

The other question is if i have a building over 80,000ft2 Class I and Class III 
is it ok to have the minimum 750gpm Flow Rate? Or it is mandatory to consider 
the maximum 1250GPM considering that i dont have a sprinkler system?.

Thank you in advance.

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Center vs Quad

[Steve Leyton]

When an architect starts to bore into a particular aesthetic issue where it’s 
not a simple resolve, I also like to use the line, “I appreciate your attention 
to the nuance of the sprinkler layout, but the only people alive who are ever 
going to notice are you and me, and you’ll likely be distracted away from the 
sprinklers by the more prominent features of this masterful interior design…”

Steve L.

From: Ron Greenman 
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 6:35 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Center vs Quad

Travis, I've had that same conversation dozens of times.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brian Harris 
mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote:
Travis-
I like it….

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>

** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence **


From: travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> 
mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 4:39 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Center vs Quad

When architects pose this question in a job meeting, I will say to them in the 
meeting.  “Without looking up, does this building have sprinklers?  Are they 
recessed or concealed? What color are they? If it does have sprinklers, are 
they in the center or quarter point of the tile?”  When they say they have no 
idea, then I respond; “Precisely, so why are you worried about it when you 
don’t even look yourself.?”  I’ve been lucky enough to win more than a few 
battles with an architect and GC that way.  I’ve honestly never had anyone 
answer those questions correctly in a meeting.

Please rate our customer 
service<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fsurvey.medallia.com%2f%3femailsignature%26fc%3d3539%26bg%3dFire%2520and%2520Fabrication=E,1,6--FocZNk7U7caqfhlabjN5rbAuNRy-CDX-AUOqoHi2By7sCC1NY4lRIUef0cSmwXgadU0atCKTZdPLhhT23V-xROBLHICyBN6kDON1qhMYR2Sg,=1>

Travis Mack, RME-G, COC, SET
Senior Engineering Manager
MFP Design
480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
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From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 1:34 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Center vs Quad

You may also have to consider any scoring in the tile


On Oct 24, 2022 at 4:24 PM, mailto:cwbamf...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Did you mean   ?
Quarter Point of ceiling Tile?

1' & 1'in a 2' x 4'--- but Architects  are  Artists

I have negotiated staying 6" from edge of tile and   used concealed heads.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 1:02 PM Brian Harris 
mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote:
I remember seeing a sketch somewhere that showed heads in the quads satisfied 
the “heads in center” requirement. Am I making stuff up?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbvssystemsinc.com%2f=E,1,HrjO4qT2vlfx6Feaf-64rzprqUZrFRcFOGFOjGYXBY7nhZSVn5pz3IgdBe-2AodnKPxbEW8unQNGvUwTqRlVGvoZJBSXymmr_CNQtPLH=1>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence **



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 13D Domestic Flow 5 GPM for Successive Units?

[Steve Leyton]

“Cabins “suggests that these are vacation homes or a resort arrangement – is 
that right?   If you used the fixture count from the plumbing code, you might 
come up with a lower allowance if there’s not an irrigation demand and 
relatively few fixtures in each dwelling.   I take it you’re not in CA, because 
we’ve codified the 5 gpm allowance to include a SFD as well as multiple 
dwellings.   If you can get the project plumbing engineer to affirm what the 
maximum demand of the individual home systems might be, it could help you with 
the numbers.

Steve Leyton
2¢ Worth

From: J H 
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 10:24 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 13D Domestic Flow 5 GPM for Successive Units?

I'm trying to fix an issue where the GC made some changes to the civil 
engineer's drawings without telling the fire protection contractor. What we 
have are five cabins, single family units, being fed from a 2" line and only 
one water meter set for all five cabins. 13D does not require the domestic 
demand be accounted for with single family dwellings unless there's more than 
one dwelling unit and that's technically what we have here. However, since 
their plan was to only have one meter for all five units, and because of the 
line being rather small (2 inch) I decided it was a good idea to account for 
the domestic demand, adding 5 gpm at each unit down the line because in this 
situation I think the probability of someone using water in the other units 
during a fire event is highly probable.

Now the problem: the GC decided to add a sixth unit and backflow preventors 
were added to each cabin without anyone telling us on the design end. Adding 
another 5 gpm busts the gpm limitations of the water meter and the added 
backflows create too much friction loss for this system. So my main question is 
do you think the successive 5 gpm domestic demands are required? Upsizing the 
water meter would largely solve the situation but I don't feel good about 
removing the domestic allowances given the size of underground line they 
decided to run and I'm not even sure that's an option.

Best,
JH


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire rated walls

[Steve Leyton]

We put these types of pre-engineered fixtures into high school auto shops.   In 
CA, they are required to be sprinklered; if they are rated, you only have to Ex 
Haz in the booth but if they’re non-rated you have to Ex Haz the entire 
compartment or building containing the booth.   We’ve learned that they are 
available rated and non-rated and I agree, it’s  up to the architect to specify 
whether the booth is rated or not.  Deciding the appropriate basis of design 
for sprinklers is a reactive exercise, based on what the architect and code 
official determine is required for this or that scenario.


SL

From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2022 10:06 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Fire rated walls

IMO this is the architect's decision and the booth has to have suppression in 
it.

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at 
www.proudline.ca

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
m...@proudline.ca for more information



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On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 11:03 AM Dapr Jones 
mailto:daprjo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm working on a project where there will be a couple open face spray booths 
inside the space.

Similar to this:
https://www.pacificspraybooths.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/S5000657.jpg

The architect is asking whether the walls need to be fire rated. Any thoughts?

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