Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[KinsleyForPrez08]

By George, I think he's figured it out!  Somebody give Jeff an attaboy, 
maybe appoint him as Director of FEMA.

Perhaps this is the mantra that has been taught in our public schools for 
the last 50 years?  We are all a product of our environment, and as such 
cannot be held accountable for our actions or inactions.

I've been behind on reading my emails, but they (the emails, just so no one 
misconstrues what I amd referring to) have been entertaining.

Regardless of our opinions of the stupidity of some people* in the 
Katrina-ravaged areas, we should do what we can to help all of the victims 
of this disaster.  After all is said and done, let's try and change the way 
people think and help prevent this situation from happening again.

*By some people, I am excluding the following: children, elderly, disabled, 
invalid, mentally-challenged, non-English speaking immigrants, Saints fans 
and anyone named Forrest ("stupid is as stupid does").

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government 
owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To 
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between 
corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of 
today."
 - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


>I just got it. The less we hold people accountable for there own actions, 
>the more we can blame the administration for all their troubles. Makes 
>perfect sense to me.
>
> Jeff
>
>
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> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Keith Addison]

"We need food and water and they sent us men with guns" - Katrina survivor

> "They give us food and they shoot us," a Somali said [of UN 
>peacekeepers in 1993].

Such extraordinary comparisons one can make.

John posted a message titled "Is Katrina the end to Bush's brand of 
'conservatism'?" which had some interesting links:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-September/003970.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/hg76

But I think it could be or is the end of more than that, and it's 
been kind of obvious from the time the full scale and scope of the 
disaster became known, along with the unbelievable central fact that 
left the rest of the world stunned - that the most powerful, wealthy 
and capable nation there's ever been had just lost a major city 
through sheer incompetence.

Never mind the Twin Towers, this is "the greatest calamity in 
American history". What is one supposed to say? "Butterfingers!" or 
something?

Stratfor Report: New Orleans: A Geopolitical Prize
A simple way to think about the New Orleans port complex is that it 
is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and 
the bulk commodities of industrialism come in.
http://snipurl.com/hfol

Incompetence and worse - from today's gleanings (with thanks to Tom 
Feeley of ICH):

New Orleans crisis shames Americans
The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third 
World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would 
have responded better.
http://snipurl.com/hfob

The Two Americas
By Marjorie Cohn
Last September, a Category 5 hurricane battered the small island of 
Cuba with 160-mile-per-hour winds. More than 1.5 million Cubans were 
evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm. Although the hurricane 
destroyed 20,000 houses, no one died.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10112.htm

Bodies Are Strewn 'Like Roadkill'
By Scott Gold and Alan Zarembo
Teams searching for survivors in attics and on rooftops have been 
given instructions to tie bodies that they encounter to street poles 
so they can be collected later.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10122.htm

Cuba has twice offered to send fully equipped medical personnel with 
experience in disaster relief.

Washington tried to cover it up and didn't reply:

Tell Bush & Congress: Accept Cuba's offer to send doctors to the 
hurricane victims!
Specifically, Cuba is offering to send 1,100 medical doctors with 
26.4 tons of medications and diagnosis kits at no expense to the U.S. 
(they will even bring their own food and water).
http://snipurl.com/hfoi

Meanwhile:

Navy ship nearby underused
The Bataan's hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and 
beds for 600 patients, are empty.
http://snipurl.com/hfof

Americans are seeing things they're not used to seeing, and used to not seeing:

Amanda Lang: Left Behind
We are afraid of each other. Isolating ourselves to our own class or 
perceived kind behind 'gated' neighborhoods and communities, we drive 
with blinders in SUVs towering above the fray at lightning, 
gas-guzzling speeds looking over, through, and/or around our fellow 
citizens trying to do anything but see them.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10111.htm

Now they're seeing this:

Failing at War, Peace and Dignity
By Dan La Botz
Hurricane Katrina blew off the façade of American society. It pulled 
back the curtain to reveal the millions who live in poverty, mostly 
African American in New Orleans, but in other cities Latino, Native 
American, and white. The most apparent failure of the state has been 
in emergency response, but far greater has been the failure to create 
a stable existence, a decent society for millions.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10095.htm

And much besides:

New Orleans is a bad place to be poor
New Orleans officials issued an almost cynical evacuation order in a 
city where they know full well that thousands have no car, no money 
for airfare or an interstate bus, no credit cards for hotels, and 
therefore no way to leave town before the deadly storm and flood 
arrived.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/343324p-292991c.html

How the Free Market Killed New Orleans
Everyone was expected to devise their own way out of the disaster 
area by private means, just as the free market dictates, just like 
people do when disaster hits free-market Third World countries.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10118.htm

Along with just where the buck stops:

Brown pushed from last job: FEMA chief had to be `asked to resign'
The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was 
fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10115.htm

Ex-officials say weakened FEMA botched response
Government disaster officials had an action plan if a major hurricane 
hit New Orleans. They simply didn't execute it when Hurricane Katrina 
struck.
http:

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Keith Addison]

Oh dear... you sure have some homework to do Rick, on just about all 
counts. I suggest you do so before you argue any further about it, on 
just how that half-million-odd children died and why (Hakan didn't 
say they starved), on the Iraq food program under Saddam Hussein 
(very few people starved) and a comparison with the situation now, on 
Saddam gassing his own people, and probably a whole lot else, because 
you have it all wrong. And we've had it all out here before, so the 
onus is on you to prove what you say, not on us to disprove it, we've 
already done so.

Best wishes

Keith




> Dear Hakan,
>
>I hold no brief for the second Gulf war and am totally disgusted with
>George Bush and was so before it became cool to be disgusted with George
>Bush.  However, this assertion about the US led blockade has always
>seemed to me grossly unfair.  Large numbers of children (and adults for
>that matter) died as a direct consequence of how Sadam chose to spend
>the money from the oil for food program.  He built 27 palaces and
>diverted money to rebuild his military.  Given how he gassed and
>tortured Iraqis before the first Gulf war he needed no help from the US
>to visit atrocities on his own people.   If he had used the money the
>way it was intended, for food and medicine, nobody would have starved.
>Also, this is without taking into consideration the hundreds of millions
>of dollars he had stashed away outside the country that could have been
>used to feed his people.  Or do we say that, since he was a head of
>state, he stole the money fair and square so it was his?
>
>Rick
>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Kim,
> >>>
> >>>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
> >>>large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
> >>>picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
> >>>only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
> >>>Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
> >>>Galloway speech at,
> >>>
> >>>http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv
> >>>
> >>>This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
> >>>it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
> >>>Americans being upset about that.
> >>>
> >>>Hakan


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Richard Littrell]

 Dear Hakan,

I hold no brief for the second Gulf war and am totally disgusted with 
George Bush and was so before it became cool to be disgusted with George 
Bush.  However, this assertion about the US led blockade has always 
seemed to me grossly unfair.  Large numbers of children (and adults for 
that matter) died as a direct consequence of how Sadam chose to spend 
the money from the oil for food program.  He built 27 palaces and 
diverted money to rebuild his military.  Given how he gassed and 
tortured Iraqis before the first Gulf war he needed no help from the US 
to visit atrocities on his own people.   If he had used the money the 
way it was intended, for food and medicine, nobody would have starved.  
Also, this is without taking into consideration the hundreds of millions 
of dollars he had stashed away outside the country that could have been 
used to feed his people.  Or do we say that, since he was a head of 
state, he stole the money fair and square so it was his?

Rick

>>
>>
>>>Kim,
>>>
>>>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
>>>large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
>>>picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
>>>only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
>>>Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
>>>Galloway speech at,
>>>
>>>http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv
>>>
>>>This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
>>>it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
>>>Americans being upset about that.
>>>
>>>Hakan
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Keith Addison]

>I, on the other hand, am purposefully ignoring both Keith and Hakan and
>am kind of hurt that neither one has even noticed.
>Hakan and Keith, please ignore this post.

What post?

Keith

>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>
> >Greetings Keith and Hakan,
> >I am not ignoring you or refusing to answer.  My AC went down and my
> >computer does not like to work in 90F+.  I have to use the cool of the day
> >to get the farm chores done.  I will be back.
> >Bright Blessings,
> >Kim
> >
> >At 07:15 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Kim,
> >>
> >>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very



 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

I, on the other hand, am purposefully ignoring both Keith and Hakan and 
am kind of hurt that neither one has even noticed.
Hakan and Keith, please ignore this post.

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings Keith and Hakan,
>I am not ignoring you or refusing to answer.  My AC went down and my 
>computer does not like to work in 90F+.  I have to use the cool of the day 
>to get the farm chores done.  I will be back.
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 07:15 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Kim,
>>
>>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
>>large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
>>picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
>>only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
>>Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
>>Galloway speech at,
>>
>>http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv
>>
>>This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
>>it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
>>Americans being upset about that.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>At 14:35 02/09/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe
>>>that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander,
>>>then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children
>>>died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that
>>>every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like
>>>that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others
>>>to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that
>>>their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>
>>>At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
>help themselves, just those who don't.
>  
>
And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth & Kim Travis wrote:



>Greetings,
>
>I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
>people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to 
>  
>
>>pick
>>
>>
>up the pieces?
>
>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just 
>  
>
>>those who
>>
>>
>don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when 
>  
>
>>we were
>>
>>
>growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
>and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the
>  
>
>>>street that
>>>  
>>>
>was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
>money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
>mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
>were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to
>  
>
>>>help the guy.
>>>  
>>>
>How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
>
>I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered 
>  
>
>>themselves and
>>
>>
>others is out of line.
>
>And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
>people of Louisianna.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
>  
>
>>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
>>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
>>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

Look how well the US embargo of Cuba has worked.  If it's such a good 
idea to embargo Communist countries,
let's embargo China.  We can't of course, they could destroy our 
country's currency at the drop of a hat. 

Personally, if we want to get rid of Castro,  probably  the best thing 
we could do would be to
flood Cuba with "Western" goods, ideas in the form of visitors, and 
communication.  The embargo was and is a stupid idea.

With regards to Iraq, Saddam managed to sneak quite a bit of money in 
during the blockade, and managed to build
even more palatial residences for himself.  The money went to the select 
Sunnis who supported the regime, and not to the Shia majority.
As is usual in situations where the flow of money is limited due to 
displeasure with the leadership of a country, it's never the elites who 
suffer,
it's the poorest, which makes one ponder the usefulness of blockades. 

That said, is there a pragmatic response to the North Koreas and Burmas 
of the world?   What  is the role of the UN?  What is the role of this 
subset of people on the Biofuels lists - people who actually take time 
away from the big screen TV to ponder these questions - a rarity in the 
US. 

Many of us have decided NOT to buy into the oil-based economy for 
various reasons.  I know why I have chosen to move away:  political - I 
don't  wish to support the interplay of our government and businesses 
that provide oil; environmental concerns; economic concerns - it's 
sustainable, and let's be honest, I'm cheap; and finally I often find 
kindred spirits among the folks that I meet and work with here.

I wonder if there is a feasible way to expand this model and use it to 
extend what I perceive to be commons goals or beliefs among the members 
of this list?  A global Moveon.org or similar? 

As anyone who reads my  posts will notice,  I have a hard time keeping 
my hopes up with regards to my country.  The last five years have seen 
the almost wholesale dismantling of many of the things that have made 
this country great: a somewhat equitable tax system (gone); an active 
EPA (gone); a social safety net (gone); a flawed but not rigid rich/poor 
gap (going) affordable health care (gone); civil liberties (gone) - I 
could go on.

Why do Americans buy into this?  Or, why do roughly half of Americans 
buy into it?  Why do we drive Hummers while the rest of the world drives 
Smart Cars?

I hope we can go forward with a government that is able to acknowledge 
and face the global issues confronting us.

Mike - "Sleepless in the SouthEast Weaver




Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings Keith and Hakan,
>I am not ignoring you or refusing to answer.  My AC went down and my 
>computer does not like to work in 90F+.  I have to use the cool of the day 
>to get the farm chores done.  I will be back.
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 07:15 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Kim,
>>
>>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
>>large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
>>picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
>>only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
>>Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
>>Galloway speech at,
>>
>>http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv
>>
>>This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
>>it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
>>Americans being upset about that.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>At 14:35 02/09/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe
>>>that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander,
>>>then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children
>>>died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that
>>>every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like
>>>that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others
>>>to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that
>>>their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>
>>>At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
>help themselves, just those who don't.
>  
>
And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and 

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Keith and Hakan,
I am not ignoring you or refusing to answer.  My AC went down and my 
computer does not like to work in 90F+.  I have to use the cool of the day 
to get the farm chores done.  I will be back.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:15 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:

>Kim,
>
>During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
>large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
>picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
>only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
>Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
>Galloway speech at,
>
>http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv
>
>This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
>it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
>Americans being upset about that.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 14:35 02/09/2005, you wrote:
> >Greetings,
> >No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe
> >that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander,
> >then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children
> >died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that
> >every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like
> >that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others
> >to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that
> >their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
> >Bright Blessings,
> >Kim
> >
> >At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> > > > Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
> > > > help themselves, just those who don't.
> > >
> > >
> > >And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
> > >it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
> > >all they could within their means?
> > >
> > >An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
> > >area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
> > >population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
> > >than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
> > >http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm
> > >
> > >I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?
> > >
> > >As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
> > >of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
> > >stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
> > >decisions on the same basis.
> > >
> > >A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
> > >as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
> > >welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
> > >rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.
> > >
> > >Todd Swearingen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > >
> > > >Greetings,
> > > >
> > > >I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
> > > >people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to 
> pick
> > > >up the pieces?
> > > >
> > > >Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just 
> those who
> > > >don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when 
> we were
> > > >growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
> > > >and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the
> > street that
> > > >was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
> > > >money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
> > > >mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
> > > >were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to
> > help the guy.
> > > >
> > > >How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
> > > >
> > > >I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered 
> themselves and
> > > >others is out of line.
> > > >
> > > >And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
> > > >people of Louisianna.
> > > >
> > > >Bright Blessings,
> > > >Kim
> > > >At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
> > > >>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
> > > >>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >___
> > > >Biofuel mailing list
> > > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists 
> .org
> > > >
> > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > >
> > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > > messages):
>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

Sussex county, where the big beach-front houses are located, is on the 
list of places covered by Fed. flood insurance.  As long as it is 
under-written, people will build there.  When beach front resorts and 
their beaches blow away in storms, the money to rebuild always comes 
from the taxpayers somehow.  Government policies encourage irresponsible 
building. 

The USACE often performs sand replenishment for beaches as well.

Greg and April wrote:

>Mike,
>
>I have been looking at the pdf link, in your post, and I am not
>understanding your reference.
>
>Could you please elaborate?
>
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 20:03
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
>
>  
>
>>I want to build my 2 million dollar dreamhouse on the beach and make the
>>taxpayers foot the bill when it gets flattened.
>>See: http://www.fema.gov/cis/DE.pdf  Rehoboth Beach is almost all on a
>>barrier island.  It's nuts to build there,
>>and nuts to keep paying to put the houses back.  But I guess the money
>>is better spent than being used in Iraq.
>>
>>Greg and April wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
>>>occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
>>>  
>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>like ), and make preparations for them.
>>>
>>>Like I said in another post:
>>>
>>>"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
>>>  
>>>
>selves
>  
>
>>>and still got into trouble.
>>>
>>>BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
>>>warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
>>>  
>>>
>else
>  
>
>>>to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
>>>  
>>>
>case
>  
>
>>>of beer, than a bus ticket.".
>>>
>>>Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
>>>  
>>>
>min
>  
>
>>>warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
>>>live below a dam.
>>>
>>>If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
>>>out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
>>>that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
>>>the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
>>>chance actualy happens.
>>>
>>>If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
>>>hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
>>>
>>>If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
>>>chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
>>>  
>>>
>a
>  
>
>>>coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
>>>
>>>Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
>>>ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
>>>  
>>>
>for
>  
>
>>>someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
>>>  
>>>
>that
>  
>
>>>could save their life.
>>>
>>>7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
>>>case of beer.
>>>
>>>If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
>>>  
>>>
>help
>  
>
>>>after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
>>>  
>>>
>putting
>  
>
>>>the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
>>>  
>>>
>With
>  
>
>>>a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
>>>together, I have put several together for my family.
>>>
>>>If I had to leave the house:
>>>I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
>>>With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
>>>With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
>>>  
>>>
>in
>  
>
>>>some comfort.
>>>With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
>>>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Terry Dyck]

Climate scientists have predicted that our oceans will rise because of 
Global Warming.  Many people living near sea level will have to re- locate, 
some day, onto higher land.  Already the Pacific island of Tuvula is being 
evacuated because of the sea level rise. About 11,000 people live on this 
island.
Terry Dyck


>From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:20:11 -0400
>
>I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and
>gave my neighborhood a teeny slap, on her way out to the gulf. Now 1.5
>million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New
>Orleans alone.
>
>Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are.
>Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are.
>Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it
>a city. <http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html>
>And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 1200
>miles of winding bottomland river into an 800 mile ditch, contained
>(theoretically) by 7 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill
>the bottomland right up to the levies.
>
>In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp
>into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or
>wetlands. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that
>flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want
>to take them out of production. There are lots of places in this
>country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous
>location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic
>coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.
>
>But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a
>muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments
>issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire
>policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and
>flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from
>headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should
>governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of
>Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?
>
>People have to find work, they have to live where they work, what can
>you do?
>
>Taryn
>ornae.com
>
>
>___
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>
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>
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>messages):
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>



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Mike,

I have been looking at the pdf link, in your post, and I am not
understanding your reference.

Could you please elaborate?


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 20:03
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> I want to build my 2 million dollar dreamhouse on the beach and make the
> taxpayers foot the bill when it gets flattened.
> See: http://www.fema.gov/cis/DE.pdf  Rehoboth Beach is almost all on a
> barrier island.  It's nuts to build there,
> and nuts to keep paying to put the houses back.  But I guess the money
> is better spent than being used in Iraq.
>
> Greg and April wrote:
>
> >Yes.
> >
> >If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
> >occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
the
> >like ), and make preparations for them.
> >
> >Like I said in another post:
> >
> >"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
selves
> >and still got into trouble.
> >
> >BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
> >warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
else
> >to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
case
> >of beer, than a bus ticket.".
> >
> >Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
min
> >warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
> >live below a dam.
> >
> >If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
> >out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
> >that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
> >the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
> >chance actualy happens.
> >
> >If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
> >hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
> >
> >If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
> >chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
a
> >coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
> >
> >Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
> >ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
for
> >someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
that
> >could save their life.
> >
> >7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
> >case of beer.
> >
> >If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
help
> >after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
putting
> >the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
With
> >a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
> >together, I have put several together for my family.
> >
> >If I had to leave the house:
> >I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
> >With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
> >With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
in
> >some comfort.
> >With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
> >sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.
> >
> >If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,
and
> >4+ months in the summer.
> >
> >I do not live in a flood plain.
> >
> >I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
> >fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I
could
> >install in a day or so ), to cook food.
> >
> >I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.
> >
> >I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
> >another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
> >heater ).
> >
> >I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.
> >
> >I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
> >splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several
times
> >when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).
> >
> >I'll say it now:
> >
> >If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
> >would be more than happy to give any help I can!
> >
> >In part it'

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[S. Chapin]

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

> Greetings Joe,
> Actually we are in SE Texas.  That is why we caught the very edge of 
> Katrina.  I have been talking to people from New Orleans that left as 
> the evacuation was happening.  This is how I could state, that as far 
> as I have been able to find out, there were no hitchhikers on  the 
> exits looking for rides.  If you don't have money or a car, how else 
> do you leave?
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 10:51 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Kim;
>>
>> I always enjoy reading your posts.  I wish you didn't live so far 
>> away.  I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico?  Sounds like your 
>> place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that way 
>> again I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth.  I know 
>> exactly what you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have 
>> had the same thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart 
>> these days it seems.  Accountability is out of fashion with the 
>> sheeple for some strange reason.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Joe
>>
>> Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Greetings Joe,
>>>Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? 
>>>It is easy to 
>>>understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.
>>>
>>>I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are
>>>judging me."  and 
>>>I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call
>>>your 
>>>friend?"  We make judgements all the time.
>>>
>>>I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
>>>accountability.
>>>
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>  
>>>

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

   


>
>Greetings,
>
>If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
>discriminate.  If
>it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. 
>Could
>you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
>with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not
>what we
>complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure
>that
>what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to
>live
>in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
> 
>  
>

Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are
Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is
not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we
all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>Biofuel mailing list
>>>
>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>>>
>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>
>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>>messages):
>>>
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>> 
>>>  
>>>
>> ___
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>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org 
>>
>>
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>___
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>
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>
>  
>
For one it might have been a good idea to have given an evac notice 
earlier. It costs alot to evac and politicians are reluctant.
Two, there is NO excuse for watching people die because no one thought 
to get AT LEAST wa

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Hakan Falk]

Kim,

During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
picked up in his part of the US "oil for food" hearings. "..- who died
only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time".
Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
Galloway speech at,

http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv

This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
it was not the parents, it was the "Americans".  I did not see many
Americans being upset about that.

Hakan

At 14:35 02/09/2005, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe
>that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander,
>then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children
>died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that
>every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like
>that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others
>to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that
>their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> > > Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
> > > help themselves, just those who don't.
> >
> >
> >And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
> >it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
> >all they could within their means?
> >
> >An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
> >area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
> >population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
> >than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
> >http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm
> >
> >I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?
> >
> >As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
> >of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
> >stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
> >decisions on the same basis.
> >
> >A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
> >as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
> >welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
> >rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >
> >
> >Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> >
> > >Greetings,
> > >
> > >I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
> > >people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
> > >up the pieces?
> > >
> > >Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
> > >don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
> > >growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
> > >and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the 
> street that
> > >was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
> > >money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
> > >mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
> > >were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to 
> help the guy.
> > >
> > >How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
> > >
> > >I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
> > >others is out of line.
> > >
> > >And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
> > >people of Louisianna.
> > >
> > >Bright Blessings,
> > >Kim
> > >At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
> > >>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
> > >>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
> > >>
> > >>Mike
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >___
> > >Biofuel mailing list
> > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > >
> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
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> messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Joe,
Actually we are in SE Texas.  That is why we caught the very edge of
Katrina.  I have been talking to people from New Orleans that left
as the evacuation was happening.  This is how I could state, that as
far as I have been able to find out, there were no hitchhikers on 
the exits looking for rides.  If you don't have money or a car, how
else do you leave?
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 10:51 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim;
I always enjoy reading your posts.  I wish you didn't live so far
away.  I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico?  Sounds
like your place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that
way again I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth.  I know
exactly what you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have had
the same thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart these days
it seems.  Accountability is out of fashion with the sheeple for
some strange reason.
Best regards
Joe 
Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? 
It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are
judging me."  and 
I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call
your 
friend?"  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


 


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

   


Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. 
Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not
what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure
that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to
live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

 


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are
Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is
not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we
all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

There is no call to go making fun of my reactor.  They were small fires
and easily controlled.  The important thing is that I learned not to make
a BioDiesel reactor from straw, so I built it with wood the next time. 
Now I am building the reactor from brick, and have expectation of success.
 I will share the plans with the list.  Please disregard the previous
plans I posted, as they have been proven unworkable.

-Mike



>
> If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.
>
> 2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.
>
> Who is at fault?
>
> A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type
> of
> reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.
> Who
> would be at fault?
>
> A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
> and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?
>
> And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
> reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?
>
> Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
> fires sooner or later.
>
> What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
> warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
> Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down
> your
> house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
> How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
> you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that
> your
> reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
> degree burn?I think so.
>
> How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
> was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
> What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
> because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
> happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
> not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.
>
> I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
> situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
> that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
> more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals,
> but,
> with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
> comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
> place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state
> is
> just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for
> 15
> years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
> there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
> almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies
> moving
> to those that needs it.
>
> What am I doing about it?
>
> It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
> would I prove a negative wrong?
>
> Greg H.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
>
>> You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
>> Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
>> for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
>> That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
>> freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
>> than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
>> mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
>> posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Emil
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
>> April
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
>> occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
>> the
>> like ), and make preparations for them.
>>
>> Like I said in another post:
>>
>> "I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

"What I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be going to do something otherwise what does that make you?"
 
...passing judgment to the very end, and still as baseless and convoluted as ever. My argument has been focused on passing judgment and "accountability". Where should I be going/doing? Is there is a special place where one should be discussing/acting on this?
 
"...at which point if  I backed you into a corner with logic" 
 
Well, I would welcome such a radical change in tactics. We might have a real debate on our hands.
 
MikeJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok well for what it's worh your statment at a) is wrong;I didn't judge that you stated you were involved or not involved.  What I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be going to do something otherwise what does that make you?And your statement at b) is wrong;The thought never occured to me to guess how you might judge me in fact if I was to assume anything I would assume that you would not judge me at all because you seem to be a non judgmental type of fellow.Anyways I am going to end this debate which is somewhat pointless and is taking up bandwidth and wasting space on the archive.  If it did continue I predict that it might go on at some length and become heated at which point if  I backed you into a corner with logic to an appropriate extent YOU would eventually write ME off as an intractible A-hole
 ironically committing the very sin of passing judgement that you seem to be condemning some people for.  Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Appal Energy]

;Preparations can be made if you make the effort.
>
>I made the effort, it can be done.
>
>There is always something that can be done.
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
>
>  
>
>>You know Greg,
>>
>>Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's
>>been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few
>>or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope
>>that it gets no worse.
>>
>>I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of
>>those persons situations.
>>
>>But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst
>>situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to
>>listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery
>>as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as
>>
>>
>you.
>  
>
>>Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are
>>showing.
>>
>>Todd Swearingen
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Appal Energy]

You not only didn't read what I wrote Kim, you completely sidestep, 
ignore and jump over your own all-encompassing statements and the 
singular stewpot that you place everyone in who doesn't measure up to 
your judgemental standards.

And yet you continue to pass judgement on others in the midst of their 
calamity. The masses haven't even found a shower, sufficient meal or an 
hour's rest and you, and Greg and others are still slamming them as to 
how they should be more accountable, not even having the first scrap of 
knowledge as to which ones were acting accountably based upon the 
choices and/or lack of choices at their disposal.

You would serve yourself well to listen to your friends who point out 
your error when you do judge them. The company of the pious is not a 
strong invite to the dinner table.

Todd Swearingen


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings Joe,
>Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
>understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.
>
>I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are judging me."  and 
>I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
>friend?"  We make judgements all the time.
>
>I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
>accountability.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>
>>>If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
>>>it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
>>>you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
>>>with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
>>>complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
>>>what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
>>>in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
>>>
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
>>which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
>>a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
>>spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
>>redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
>>die of fence riding induced lethargy.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

Ok well for what it's worh your statment at a) is wrong;

I didn't judge that you stated you were involved or not involved.  What
I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be
going to do something otherwise what does that make you?

And your statement at b) is wrong;

The thought never occured to me to guess how you might judge me in fact
if I was to assume anything I would assume that you would not judge me
at all because you seem to be a non judgmental type of fellow.

Anyways I am going to end this debate which is somewhat pointless and
is taking up bandwidth and wasting space on the archive.  If it did
continue I predict that it might go on at some length and become heated
at which point if  I backed you into a corner with logic to an
appropriate extent YOU would eventually write ME off as an intractible
A-hole ironically committing the very sin of passing judgement that you
seem to be condemning some people for.  Lets just agree to disagree and
leave it at that.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  OK Joe, here we go.
   
  "I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage
zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."
   
  You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.
   
  This reaction from you implies that either:
   
  a.) I falsely stated that I'm involved in the rescue effort
   
  b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough
   
  ...niether of which has happened.
   
  Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.
   
  What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue
of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of
where and when it might be happening.
   
  Mike
  
  Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  It's
the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders
off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set?  What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness.  If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship?  Is your compassion completely
unconditional?  Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there? 
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded?  Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate?  Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender)  Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again?  Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways.  Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do. 
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive!  Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world?  Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances.  Too bad this is the real world.  Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want.  Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure
out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
   
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
   
  Mike
  
  
  
  

  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

There is an ant and the grasshopper thing 
going on here.
Yes in the story, the grasshopper ends up 
singing for his supper, but, what do we do in 
the real world?
 
Now, I'm not saying that all of the people 
in NO are bad and I agree that the people need help, but, how do you help, 
without rewarding, the bad behavior of the people that are doing the bad 
things?

 
In the news reports I have seen, the people 
just don't know what to do.
 
It is said that just sitting around doing 
nothing, but, thinking how bad things are, is psychologically bad. 

 
Do you start forming work groups, to start 
cleaning up the mess or handing out supplies, thus helping the people to 
help themselves?
 
Greg H.
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 
  7:04
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
   
  Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
  generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
  value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
   
  Mike Garth & Kim Travis 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Greetings,No 
one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent 
bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger 
that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We 
never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything 
like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect 
others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is 
sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their 
behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[je.howard]

I just got it. The less we hold people accountable for there own actions, the 
more we can blame the administration for all their troubles. Makes perfect 
sense to me.

Jeff


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

OK Joe, here we go.
 
"I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."
 
You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.
 
This reaction from you implies that either:
 
a.) I falsely stated that I'm involved in the rescue effort
 
b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough
 
...niether of which has happened.
 
Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.
 
What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of where and when it might be happening.
 
Mike
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders off;Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV set?  What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one? There is a difference between compassion and blindness.  If you had a long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would it change the friendship?  Is your compassion completely unconditional?  Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there?  Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded?  Suppose your partner was equally indiscriminate?  Would you still feel honoured by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender)  Are you going to
 burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and again?  Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their own child, well not if they are good parents anyways.  Often people have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do.  They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there they will bury you alive!  Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in this world?  Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and their circumstances.  Too bad this is the real world.  Too bad we are all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion for those
 who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting what they want.  Might want to consider that along the way as I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk.JoeMichael Redler wrote:



OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one walking out of a store with a TV.
 
Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
 
Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

Hi Kim;

I always enjoy reading your posts.  I wish you didn't live so far
away.  I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico?  Sounds like your
place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that way again
I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth.  I know exactly what
you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have had the same
thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart these days it
seems.  Accountability is out of fashion with the sheeple for some
strange reason.

Best regards
Joe 

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are judging me."  and 
I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?"  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


  
  
Garth & Kim Travis wrote:



  Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

  


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[robert luis rabello]

Michael Redler wrote:

> I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts 
> suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the 
> voice of reason (what you call fence riding).

Many Canadians DO think of themselves as a voice of reason.  Kim has 
pointed out in the past, however, that there's a lot of apathy up here 
too.

>  
> The US has a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) 
> gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and 
> put in camps.

The same thing happened in British Columbia.  Racism transcends 
national boundaries.

> Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started 
> with "we" couldn't trust "those savages" and now the result is hidden in 
> plain sight by what you don't see in phone books.
>  
> Saying a thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. 
> What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and 
> without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no 
> interest in researching the matter any further.

We are all people who carry flaws.  Sometimes we say or write things 
impulsively.  Any one of us, subjected to close enough scrutiny, would 
qualify for criticism.  Let's drop the rocks and roll up our sleeves 
to get some work done.




robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the voice of reason (what you call fence riding).
 
The US has a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and put in camps.
 
Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started with "we" couldn't trust "those savages" and now the result is hidden in plain sight by what you don't see in phone books.
 
Saying a thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no interest in researching the matter any further.
 
"I have no desire to live in a world where people are no accountable for what they do."
 
More generalizations: The phantom of "people" and "they" continuously appear in your posts.
 
"...no accountable for what they do."
 
etc, etc, etc.
 
Statements about people who may or may not exist, doing things of which you may or may not have an understanding and expressing anger and frustration about events that may or may not have occurred by people who's motives you may not know about.
 
You seem to know exactly who "they" are and I'm waiting for you to tell me.
 
Mike
Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings Joe,Thank you. Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? It is easy to understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.I have had friends look at me startled and say: "You are judging me." and I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your friend?" We make judgements all the time.I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no accountability.Bright Blessings,KimAt 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[bob allen]

"blame Canada" (terrance and phillip)




Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
> "France must be punished"
>Condie RICE
> :-)
> frantz
> 
> On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
> 
> 
>>>OK .. well .. history
>>>
>>>New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
>>>the
>>>Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
>>>trade.
>>>
>>>But really only a port that sent goods to another land.
>>>
>>>New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
>>>population
>>>of "free black".
>>>
>>>It also needs to be understood that the majority of those "free black"  
>>>were
>>
>>>from a line of "freed" slaves (women) who were the "contract purchased
>>
>>>mistresses" of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
>>>"offspring" .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
>>>conducting
>>>negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
>>>"contract" to ensure their future wealth.
>>>
>>>The whiter the skin the more desirable.
>>>
>>>Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
>>>children
>>>fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
>>>..
>>>these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
>>>scarves.
>>>
>>>I have a "thing" about "head scarves"!!
>>>
>>>.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
>>>German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
>>>bit of Swedish (as if a "bit of anything" could fit in there).
>>>
>>>The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
>>>neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
>>>his
>>>"contract acquired" (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
>>>contracts .. and even if the the "gentleman" grew tired of his  
>>>mistress ..
>>>the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
>>>in the
>>>name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.
>>>
>>>If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
>>>another
>>>woman.
>>>
>>>New Orleans wasn't a "planned" neighborhood .. but historically, it  
>>>has gain
>>>a certain reputation of being a great place to party.
>>>
>>>Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
>>>follows.
>>>
>>>The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
>>>population ..
>>>the businesses .. and the party.
>>>
>>>.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
>>>French .. a large percentage of the "free black" disappeared (sold  
>>>north)
>>>and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.
>>>
> 
> 
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the
blinders off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set?  What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness.  If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship?  Is your compassion completely
unconditional?  Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there? 
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded?  Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate?  Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender)  Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again?  Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways.  Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do. 
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive!  Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world?  Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances.  Too bad this is the real world.  Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want.  Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out
who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
   
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
   
  Mike
  
  Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate. If 
>it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.
Could 
>you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get
away 
>with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not
what we 
>complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure
that 
>what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to
live 
>in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>


Thank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are
Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say
discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often
loath to call a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to
accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back
home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced
lethargy.

Joe
  
  
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

Yeah, let's get Mel Gibson to spank 'em

Frantz DESPREZ wrote:

>"France must be punished"
>   Condie RICE
>:-)
>frantz
>
>On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>OK .. well .. history
>>>
>>>New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
>>>the
>>>Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
>>>trade.
>>>
>>>But really only a port that sent goods to another land.
>>>
>>>New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
>>>population
>>>of "free black".
>>>
>>>It also needs to be understood that the majority of those "free black"  
>>>were
>>>  
>>>
>>>from a line of "freed" slaves (women) who were the "contract purchased
>>
>>
>>>mistresses" of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
>>>"offspring" .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
>>>conducting
>>>negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
>>>"contract" to ensure their future wealth.
>>>
>>>The whiter the skin the more desirable.
>>>
>>>Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
>>>children
>>>fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
>>>..
>>>these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
>>>scarves.
>>>
>>>I have a "thing" about "head scarves"!!
>>>
>>>.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
>>>German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
>>>bit of Swedish (as if a "bit of anything" could fit in there).
>>>
>>>The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
>>>neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
>>>his
>>>"contract acquired" (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
>>>contracts .. and even if the the "gentleman" grew tired of his  
>>>mistress ..
>>>the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
>>>in the
>>>name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.
>>>
>>>If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
>>>another
>>>woman.
>>>
>>>New Orleans wasn't a "planned" neighborhood .. but historically, it  
>>>has gain
>>>a certain reputation of being a great place to party.
>>>
>>>Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
>>>follows.
>>>
>>>The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
>>>population ..
>>>the businesses .. and the party.
>>>
>>>.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
>>>French .. a large percentage of the "free black" disappeared (sold  
>>>north)
>>>and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>
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>  
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are judging me."  and 
I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?"  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>
> >Greetings,
> >
> >If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
> >it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
> >you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
> >with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
> >complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
> >what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
> >in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
> >
> >Bright Blessings,
> >Kim
> >
>
>
>Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
>which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
>a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
>spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
>redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
>die of fence riding induced lethargy.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one walking out of a store with a TV.
 
Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
 
MikeJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Garth & Kim Travis wrote:>Greetings,>>If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate. If >it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. Could >you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away >with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not what we >complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure that >what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to live >in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.>>Bright Blessings,>Kim>Thank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call
 a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced lethargy.Joe___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

You say that it's not that simple yet, you generalize by pointing to a mixed group of people and take a position against "them", saying that "they" don't help themselves and shoot at rescue workers.
 
Oversimplified - Hell Yes!
 
Who are "they" and how do you know the circumstances of each person and what "their" motivations are?
 

"I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult."
 
That's right! They're all suicide drowners! Wait, that doesn't sound right. How about suicide starvers, out to send a message but, those rescuing infidels just won't give up!
 
Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
 
Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive looting.
 
More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the list.
 
I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.
 
To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn comes faster.
 
I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult.
 
In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to get thru.
 
I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making ourselves easy to help.
 
These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy for them either.
 
Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or efficient.
 
These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.
 
I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".
 
Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.
 
I'm a newbie though, what do I know.
 
Blessings
Johanna___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
>it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
>you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
>with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
>complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
>what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
>in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a 
dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a spade we 
are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of 
sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding 
induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Appal Energy]

Go back and read your own words Kim.

Their all-inclusiveness painted everyone with the same broad brush. No 
different than Greg, you imply that everyone who remained is of the same 
mindset/mentality, and then you both progress and attempt to convict all 
who stayed as having the same criminal intent and/or recklessness, to 
the point of negligent homicide.

The carelessness with how you, Greg and now Johanna have chosen your 
words, failing to separate "they" from the remotely small population of 
"them" to whom your "frustrations," condemnations and self-righteous 
judgements may (or may not apply), places you precisely and 
smack-dab-center within the definition of "stereotyping."

"Frustration" is not a worthy excuse for the exercise that the three of 
you are conducting. Thoughtlessness is.

Not at all in line with the visual given of someone who constantly signs 
off with "bright blessings." All rather cold, callous and quite the 
opposite.

Todd Swearingen


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
>that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
>then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
>died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
>every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
>that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
>to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
>their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>  
>
>>>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
>>>help themselves, just those who don't.
>>>  
>>>
>>And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
>>it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
>>all they could within their means?
>>
>>An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
>>area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
>>population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
>>than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
>>http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm
>>
>>I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?
>>
>>As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
>>of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
>>stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
>>decisions on the same basis.
>>
>>A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
>>as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
>>welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
>>rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.
>>
>>Todd Swearingen
>>
>>
>>
>>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>
>>>I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
>>>people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
>>>up the pieces?
>>>
>>>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
>>>don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
>>>growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
>>>and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
>>>was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
>>>money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
>>>mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
>>>were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.
>>>
>>>How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
>>>
>>>I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
>>>others is out of line.
>>>
>>>And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
>>>people of Louisianna.
>>>
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike




>>>
>>>___
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>>>  
>>>
>>messages):
>>
>>
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>>>
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:04 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>
>Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
>generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
>value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
>
>Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Why not Sony?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:56
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> 
> I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
> better than Sony.
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[John I]

> Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 03:02:27 -0400
> From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
> There Blame?
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
> format=flowed
> 
> In captions on news photos of Orleans:
>   White people who were carrying boxes were
> 'scavenging'.
>   Black people who were carrying boxes were
> 'looting'.

It's theft no matter who's doing it...  I haven't
noticed any difference in coverage between which race
is stealing. That's not to say you haven't or that
there isn't something wrong with it when you have.  
 
> Both the white scavengers and the black looters were
> collecting stuff 
> that was certain to be a complete write-off for
> whomever owned it 
> before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's
> new cardboard home?

I care on several levels!  If it goes to that persons
insurance when it wouldn't have then it affects all
other insurance ratepayer(of that company/govt). 
Despite what the anarchists may say, there is
something to be said for the rule of law.  If it was
your store or home being looted I doubt we'd see you
there handing the stuff out since it's covered anyway.

> Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, "The punishment
> for stupidity is 
> death". If you're seeking consumer electronics
> instead of water, food, 
> and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.
> 
> When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints,
> more than once, we 
> toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence,
> often evicting some 
> rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily
> sentenced.
> When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300
> million people, we 
> re-elect him.

No doubt!  It sickens me to see that rich get a slap
on the wrist or evade prosecution all together.  When
fined only a small percentage of the take so when that
1 yr stay at club fed is over it's back to the
Ritz disgusting.  

> Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.
> 
> taryn
> http://ornae.com/
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM,
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Kim,
> >
> > You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that
> way.  I am just 
> > getting
> > caught up on the day's email, and I found that I
> agree more with you 
> > two
> > that most of the others on this particular topic. 
> If I lived in a
> > disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana,
> Florida, Southern 
> > California
> > or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly
> prepare for the worst.
> >
> > I also do not condemn the people who attempted to
> help themselves.  In 
> > fact,
> > I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate
> (or tried to) and now 
> > do
> > not know where their homes are still standing or
> have been stripped 
> > clean by
> > selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to
> someone in that 
> > situation,
> > whether I knew them well or not.
> >
> > For those who stayed behind against the warnings
> of the weather experts
> > (including the non-governmental ones), state and
> local governments, 
> > don't
> > worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as
> they always do.  I 
> > just
> > hope that the local police get a copy of the news
> tapes showing the 
> > faces of
> > those looters carrying TVs & DVD players out of
> the abandoned stores.  
> > What
> > do you need a TV for when the power is expected to
> be out for weeks or
> > months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Earl Kinsley
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > --
> > "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned
> an invisible 
> > government
> > owing no allegiance and acknowledging no
> responsibility to the people. 
> > To
> > destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
> unholy alliance 
> > between
> > corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first
> task of the 
> > statesmen of
> > today."
> >  - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans.
> Is There Blame?
> >
> >
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> I am wondering, a

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

"We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves."
 
Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
 
Mike Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings,No one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[John Hayes]

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
> No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  

I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
better than Sony.

Oh wait... nevermind.

;)

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

"Preparations can be made if you make the effort."
 
This thread is beginning to take on a "they" flavor. They were unprepared, lazy, foolish, etc.
 
I do everything I can to resist the urge to judge people. However, I exercise every freedom to judge other people's opinions and philosophies with every expectation that they reciprocate.
 
That said, I think a statement like "Preparations can be made if you make the effort." is a generalization which is presumptuous, judgmental (in this context), lacks any informational value and is based completely on emotion.
 
MikeGreg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That's where you are wrong Todd.For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit tothat too.Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to planaccordingly.I am on a budget just like many of those people. I have been stuck alonein a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not saythat I haven't " been on a roof top ", and don't know what it's like.Preparations can be made if you make the effort.I made the effort, it can be done.There is always something that can be done.Greg H.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> > Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
> > help themselves, just those who don't.
>
>
>And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
>it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
>all they could within their means?
>
>An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
>area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
>population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
>than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise,"
>http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm
>
>I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?
>
>As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
>of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
>stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
>decisions on the same basis.
>
>A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
>as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
>welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
>rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>
>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>
> >Greetings,
> >
> >I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
> >people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
> >up the pieces?
> >
> >Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
> >don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
> >growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
> >and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
> >was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
> >money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
> >mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
> >were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.
> >
> >How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
> >
> >I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
> >others is out of line.
> >
> >And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
> >people of Louisianna.
> >
> >Bright Blessings,
> >Kim
> >At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
> >>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
> >>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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> >
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> >
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> messages):
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Todd,
nobody on this List doubts thath the frequency and 
the enormous strengt of those Hurricanes is in direct link to global 
warming!
David Suzuki predictet in his book "towards 
the year 2040" everything whats happening rigth now ! written in the early 
80.
he compared Humankind with Frogs sitting in a bowl 
of water on a heatsource and not realysing that the Water starts to 
boil!
Now there are scientists warning about global 
warming - and there are politicians discrediting them they are the real 
culprits!
And the Folks out there believe what ever is 
conveneant and do not disturb their so beloved Livestyl
It is tragic what happened but it was foreseeable 
to come and shoes again the criminal incompetence of the Administration in 
almost every level
Fritz

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Appal 
  Energy 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:32 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  > Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to> help 
  themselves, just those who don't.And precisely who's position is 
  it to condemn anyone? And what right is it of their's to say that those 
  whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do all they could within their 
  means?An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New 
  Orleans area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the 
  population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less 
  than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise," http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htmI 
  wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself 
  don't?As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is 
  quite out of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to 
  rant and stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all 
  made decisions on the same basis.A bit like saying all Canadians 
  who choose to live in Texas are as dumb as bricks. Or that all black 
  single moms are sucking on the government welfare teat. Maybe there are 
  extinuating circumstances that rip such rants to shreds under even the 
  most simplified examination.Todd SwearingenGarth & 
  Kim Travis wrote:>Greetings,>>I am wondering, are 
  Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with >people who don't 
  care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick >up the 
  pieces?>>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help 
  themselves, just those who >don't.  I can remember my parents 
  being irate with a neighbor when we were >growing up for the same kind 
  of behavior.  There was a broken water main >and it flooded the 
  basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that >was 
  always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the 
  >money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance 
  premiums.  I >mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, 
  Canada?  I am afraid they >were not very polite when someone came 
  canvassing for money to help the guy.>>How about:  God 
  helps those who help themselves?>>I don't see that a rant 
  against people who have endangered themselves and >others is out of 
  line.>>And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on 
  more for the >people of Louisianna.>>Bright 
  Blessings,>Kim>At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you 
  wrote:>>  >>>I'm sure that there is a 
  percentage of people who have exercised poor >>judgment. Who hasn't 
  exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you >>express less 
  sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.>>>>Mike>>    
  >>>>>>___>Biofuel 
  mailing 
  list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel 
  at Journey to 
  Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search 
  the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
  messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>>>>  
  >___Biofuel 
  mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
  at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch 
  the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
I am sorry if I took your comment the wrong way.  I am just trying to share 
alternatives.  You are correct, there is no one size fits all in the health 
department, since our genealogy has lots to do with what will work for us

At 06:47 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>Kim , my apologies if my position was taken as ridicule, there was no such 
>intent.  All I am trying
>to do is point out all the variables in any health decision, particularly 
>when someone makes a
>blanket statement such as A is good, B is bad.



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Frantz DESPREZ]

"France must be punished"
   Condie RICE
:-)
frantz

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

>>OK .. well .. history
>>
>>New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
>>the
>>Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
>>trade.
>>
>>But really only a port that sent goods to another land.
>>
>>New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
>>population
>>of "free black".
>>
>>It also needs to be understood that the majority of those "free black"  
>>were
>>from a line of "freed" slaves (women) who were the "contract purchased
>>mistresses" of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
>>"offspring" .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
>>conducting
>>negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
>>"contract" to ensure their future wealth.
>>
>>The whiter the skin the more desirable.
>>
>>Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
>>children
>>fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
>>..
>>these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
>>scarves.
>>
>>I have a "thing" about "head scarves"!!
>>
>>.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
>>German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
>>bit of Swedish (as if a "bit of anything" could fit in there).
>>
>>The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
>>neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
>>his
>>"contract acquired" (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
>>contracts .. and even if the the "gentleman" grew tired of his  
>>mistress ..
>>the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
>>in the
>>name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.
>>
>>If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
>>another
>>woman.
>>
>>New Orleans wasn't a "planned" neighborhood .. but historically, it  
>>has gain
>>a certain reputation of being a great place to party.
>>
>>Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
>>follows.
>>
>>The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
>>population ..
>>the businesses .. and the party.
>>
>>.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
>>French .. a large percentage of the "free black" disappeared (sold  
>>north)
>>and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.
>>

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

In captions on news photos of Orleans:
White people who were carrying boxes were 'scavenging'.
Black people who were carrying boxes were 'looting'.

Both the white scavengers and the black looters were collecting stuff 
that was certain to be a complete write-off for whomever owned it 
before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's new cardboard home?

Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, "The punishment for stupidity is 
death". If you're seeking consumer electronics instead of water, food, 
and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.

When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints, more than once, we 
toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence, often evicting some 
rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily sentenced.
When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300 million people, we 
re-elect him.

Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.

taryn
http://ornae.com/


On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kim,
>
> You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that way.  I am just 
> getting
> caught up on the day's email, and I found that I agree more with you 
> two
> that most of the others on this particular topic.  If I lived in a
> disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana, Florida, Southern 
> California
> or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly prepare for the worst.
>
> I also do not condemn the people who attempted to help themselves.  In 
> fact,
> I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate (or tried to) and now 
> do
> not know where their homes are still standing or have been stripped 
> clean by
> selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to someone in that 
> situation,
> whether I knew them well or not.
>
> For those who stayed behind against the warnings of the weather experts
> (including the non-governmental ones), state and local governments, 
> don't
> worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as they always do.  I 
> just
> hope that the local police get a copy of the news tapes showing the 
> faces of
> those looters carrying TVs & DVD players out of the abandoned stores.  
> What
> do you need a TV for when the power is expected to be out for weeks or
> months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Earl Kinsley
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> --
> "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible 
> government
> owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. 
> To
> destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance 
> between
> corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the 
> statesmen of
> today."
>  - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration 
>> with
>> people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to 
>> pick
>> up the pieces?
>>
>> Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just 
>> those who
>> don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we 
>> were
>> growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water 
>> main
>> and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street
>> that
>> was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have 
>> the
>> money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums. 
>>  I
>> mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid 
>> they
>> were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help 
>> the
>> guy.
>>
>> How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
>>
>> I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves 
>> and
>> others is out of line.
>>
>> And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
>> people of Louisianna.
>>
>> Bright Blessings,
>> Kim
>> At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
>>> judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
>>> you
>>> express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
>>> worse.
>>>
>>> Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

No. 
 
I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of meteorology say it's going to be a bad storm and they should evacuate 
coastal areas, people should believe them.
 
I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of geology say that a any break in the levies would put 20 feet ( or 
more ) of water in parts of New Orleans, people should believe 
them.
 
I'm saying that when specialist from 
the field of disaster relief and disaster preparedness, say not to expect any 
direct help from the government for the first 72 hrs after a disaster, people 
should believe them.
 
That is what I'm am saying.
 
What you are hearing from me is not a 
matter of expressing less sympathy as the results of matters 
getting worse, but, of extreme frustration on my part, from knowing, 
that part of this suffering, did not have to happen, had more planning been 
done.
 
" People don't plan to 
fail.    People just fail to plan ".
 
The more suffering I'm hearing about, 
the more frustrated I am getting.    I am extremely 
frustrated about the whole situation, and there is not much more I can do, other 
than I have already done, ( other than to warn other's ) and I don't like 
it one little bit. 
 
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  14:54
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each 
  According To His Needs"?
   
  ...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't 
  help myself).
   
  So Greg, when you say stuff like "
   
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
   
  Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you 
  mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying 
  goes.
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
   
  You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. 
  That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking orders at 
  some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would 
  listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch 
  Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!
   
  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
  you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
   
  Mike"Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  You 
can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put 
yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor 
help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's 
what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely 
to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any 
one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, 
should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts 
doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 
Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
    On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 
PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina 
slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an 
area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, 
tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make 
preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no 
issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand 
still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did 
NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the 
government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, 
because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus 
ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they 
may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose 
everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going 
to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of 
aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out ifthat model of 
aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe 
personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in 
amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one 
can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare 
accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the 
fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. I

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[John I]

> Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:37:35 -0500
> From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
> There Blame?
> To: 
> Message-ID:
> 
>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a
> fellow human being.
> Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy).
> They are pleading
> for help even though you think they might not
> deserve it (have mercy).
> That's what drew me to this list in the first place;
> sharing information
> freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of
> ideas here greater
> than any one person. If my reactor catches fire
> because I made a stupid
> mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I
> feel when I read your
> posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.
> 
I also find it hard to critisize someone for not
planning contigency meals (or more) in case of an
emergency when they may have a tough time planning or
providing the very meal they'll eat tonight.  As it's
been said, it's hard to go when you have no means to
go, so you're stuck.  It's horrible and I can only
imagine that fealing of helplessness.  That being
said, I find it hard to catagorize all the "victims"
as victims.  There is something to be said for the
idea that most have chosen that's where they'll live
rather then being forced by virtue of economics or
other.  It's been said more then a few times in the
list on this subject how questionable it is to live
below sea level next to the sea... and in a known
hurricane area to boot.  Past that, I think it's quite
reasonable, and should be encouraged,  to present
contigencies or various ideas in this group.  I
suspect that many of the affected by this storm will
not approach life in the same way just as do many who
survive a disaster of this sort.  Then again, many
just rebuild and continue as they were and hope it
doesn't happen again, complacent per the norm.  
I commend Greg for trying to be prepared and looking
after the wellfare of himself and his family.  I
suspect that he's shared his views of survival with
others, others that may well be saved by such advice. 
It's only too bad such a voice hadn't been heard by
more of the affected.  
Either way, whether by their own fault or not, my
heart goes out to the many who are suffering over loss
of home, life, certainty.  I'd like to wish that a
storm like this will never happen again, but we all
know it will... somewhere, sometime.

> 
> Regards,
> Emil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Greg and
> April
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
> There Blame?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> If people live in an area, they should learn of
> dangerous natural
> occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal
> waves, blizzards and
> the
> like ), and make preparations for them.
> 
> Like I said in another post:
> 
> "I have no issue with those that TRIED to do
> something to help them
> selves
> and still got into trouble.
> 
> BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  (
> despite all the
> warnings ) to help them selves then expect the
> government and everyone
> else
> to drop what their doing and save them, because they
> would rather buy a
> case
> of beer, than a bus ticket.".
> 
> Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that
> they may only have 5
> min
> warning to get to higher ground, and may lose
> everything they should not
> live below a dam.
> 
> If people are going to fly, they need to take it
> upon them selves to
> find
> out what kind of aircraft they are going to be
> flying on and find out if
> that model of aircraft has a good history of flight
> safety, and then
> take
> the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes
> the one in a
> million
> chance actualy happens.
> 
> If one looks at the past one can see that a given
> area is subject to
> hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
> 
> If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the
> fact that you have
> a
> chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50
> ft of sea level near
> a
> coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well
> reach you.
> 
> Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't
> leave because of
> ignorant parents and for the people that tried and
> still failed.Not
> for
> someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5
> gal bucke

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Flamemom]

In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
  you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
   
  Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive 
looting.
 
More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the 
list.
 
I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and 
do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.
 
To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is 
pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help 
out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn 
comes faster.
 
I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, 
shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more 
difficult.
 
In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out 
and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing 
what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to 
get thru.
 
I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, 
we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making 
ourselves easy to help.
 
These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy 
for them either.
 
Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get 
out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of 
someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief 
isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply 
for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or 
efficient.
 
These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.
 
I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be 
very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to 
rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) 
problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help 
each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the 
ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".
 
Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.
 
I'm a newbie though, what do I know.
 
Blessings
Johanna
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

No you shouldn't be dumped from the list.

Let's me see if I can put it in terms of your reactor.

If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.

2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.

Who is at fault?

A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type of
reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.Who
would be at fault?

A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?

And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?

Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
fires sooner or later.

What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down your
house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that your
reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
degree burn?I think so.

How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.

I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals, but,
with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state is
just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for 15
years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies moving
to those that needs it.

What am I doing about it?

It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
would I prove a negative wrong?

Greg H.




- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
> Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
> for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
> That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
> freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
> than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
> mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
> posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.
>
> Regards,
> Emil
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
> April
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> Yes.
>
> If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
> occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
> the
> like ), and make preparations for them.
>
> Like I said in another post:
>
> "I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
> selves
> and still got into trouble.
>
> BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
> warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
> else
> to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
> case
> of beer, than a bus ticket.".
>
> Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
> min
> warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
> live below a dam.
>
> If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
> find
> out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
> that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
> take
>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

That's where you are wrong Todd.

For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.

For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit to
that too.

Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.

Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to plan
accordingly.

I am on a budget just like many of those people.I have been stuck alone
in a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than
2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not say
that I haven't " been on a roof top ", and don't know what it's like.

Preparations can be made if you make the effort.

I made the effort, it can be done.

There is always something that can be done.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> You know Greg,
>
> Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's
> been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few
> or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope
> that it gets no worse.
>
> I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of
> those persons situations.
>
> But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst
> situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to
> listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery
> as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as
you.
>
> Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are
> showing.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[KinsleyForPrez08]

Kim,

You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that way.  I am just getting 
caught up on the day's email, and I found that I agree more with you two 
that most of the others on this particular topic.  If I lived in a 
disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana, Florida, Southern California 
or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly prepare for the worst.

I also do not condemn the people who attempted to help themselves.  In fact, 
I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate (or tried to) and now do 
not know where their homes are still standing or have been stripped clean by 
selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to someone in that situation, 
whether I knew them well or not.

For those who stayed behind against the warnings of the weather experts 
(including the non-governmental ones), state and local governments, don't 
worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as they always do.  I just 
hope that the local police get a copy of the news tapes showing the faces of 
those looters carrying TVs & DVD players out of the abandoned stores.  What 
do you need a TV for when the power is expected to be out for weeks or 
months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government 
owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To 
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between 
corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of 
today."
 - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

- Original Message - 
From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Greetings,
>
> I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
> people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
> up the pieces?
>
> Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
> don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
> growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
> and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street 
> that
> was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
> money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
> mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
> were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the 
> guy.
>
> How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
>
> I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
> others is out of line.
>
> And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
> people of Louisianna.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
>>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
>>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
>>
>>Mike
>
>
>
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>
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>
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> messages):
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>
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Appal Energy]

> Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
> help themselves, just those who don't.


And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is 
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do 
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans 
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the 
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less 
than Katrina. See  "Hurricane Pam Exercise," 
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out 
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and 
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made 
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb 
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government 
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such 
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with 
>people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick 
>up the pieces?
>
>Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who 
>don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were 
>growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main 
>and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that 
>was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the 
>money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I 
>mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they 
>were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.
>
>How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
>
>I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and 
>others is out of line.
>
>And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the 
>people of Louisianna.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
>>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you 
>>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

I want to build my 2 million dollar dreamhouse on the beach and make the 
taxpayers foot the bill when it gets flattened.
See: http://www.fema.gov/cis/DE.pdf  Rehoboth Beach is almost all on a 
barrier island.  It's nuts to build there,
and nuts to keep paying to put the houses back.  But I guess the money 
is better spent than being used in Iraq.

Greg and April wrote:

>Yes.
>
>If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
>occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
>like ), and make preparations for them.
>
>Like I said in another post:
>
>"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
>and still got into trouble.
>
>BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
>warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
>to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
>of beer, than a bus ticket.".
>
>Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
>warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
>live below a dam.
>
>If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
>out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
>that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
>the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
>chance actualy happens.
>
>If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
>hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
>
>If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
>chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
>coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
>
>Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
>ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
>someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
>could save their life.
>
>7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
>case of beer.
>
>If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
>after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
>the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
>a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
>together, I have put several together for my family.
>
>If I had to leave the house:
>I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
>With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
>With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
>some comfort.
>With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
>sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.
>
>If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
>4+ months in the summer.
>
>I do not live in a flood plain.
>
>I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
>fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
>install in a day or so ), to cook food.
>
>I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.
>
>I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
>another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
>heater ).
>
>I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.
>
>I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
>splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
>when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).
>
>I'll say it now:
>
>If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
>would be more than happy to give any help I can!
>
>In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
>is running out.
>
>Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
>emergency, so do it before it occurs.
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
>
>  
>
>>Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
>>California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
>>eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
>>No one can predict the future.
>>
>>Regards,

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

30% H2O2 is ridiculously expensive as well. $230.00 per gallon in
Canada.
It is hell on wheels though for cleaning silicon pretty near to the
atomic level when mixed 50/50 with concentrated sulfuric.
Don't try this at home kids.

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  on the safety of hydrogen peroxide, from the msds:

note at the bottom, ...may cause... death.
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydPeroxide.html



Potential Health Effects
Eye:
Causes eye burns. Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, redness, tearing, 
inflammation, and possible corneal injury.
Skin:
Causes skin burns.
Ingestion:
May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. 
May cause perforation of the digestive
tract. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. May cause irritation of the respiratory tract with burning pain in the nose and 
throat, coughing, wheezing,
shortness of breath and pulmonary edema. Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. May cause 
ulceration of nasal tissue, insomnia, nervous tremors with numb extremities, chemical pneumonia, 
unconsciousness, and death.
Chronic:
Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.

sounds pretty mean, huh?  but we know better don't we. We know that in dilute solutions that we 
needn't worry about the toxic effects of a 30 per cent solution.

"The dose makes the poison"
paracelsus




Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
  
  
Greetings,
Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:



  Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

Sounds more like the parable of the ant and the grasshopper.

Michael Redler wrote:

> Kim,
>  
> "I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves 
> and others is out of line."
>  
> I have no problem voicing my opposition to what I feel is a 
> bad decision. If I knew that an individual was aware of the advanced 
> warning and ignored it, I'd have no problem telling him/her that the 
> decision was stupid. ...but a rant against people? who exactly? 
>  
> I admire your willingness to donate but, disappointed by your 
> willingness to pass judgment. There will be days when I screw up. If 
> you're there when it happens, I won't be sure whether to be grateful 
> for your generosity or feel patronized by your words because I 
> expect them to be as much about me as they would be about my decisions.  
>  
> "God helps those who help themselves?"
>  
> A biblical reference is the last thing I expected to see after you 
> describe a "rant" as "not out of line".
>  
> Did you forget Matthew 7:1?
>  
> Bright Blessings,
>  
> Mike
>
> */Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration
> with
> people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else
> to pick
> up the pieces?
>
> Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just
> those who
> don't. I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when
> we were
> growing up for the same kind of behavior. There was a broken water
> main
> and it flooded the basements of the houses. The one guy on the
> street that
> was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't
> have the
> money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance
> premiums. I
> mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada? I am afraid
> they
> were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to
> help the guy.
>
> How about: God helps those who help themselves?
>
> I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered
> themselves and
> others is out of line.
>
> And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
> people of Louisianna.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
>
>
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>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

Kim,
 
"I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and others is out of line."
 

I have no problem voicing my opposition to what I feel is a bad decision. If I knew that an individual was aware of the advanced warning and ignored it, I'd have no problem telling him/her that the decision was stupid. ...but a rant against people? who exactly? 
 
I admire your willingness to donate but, disappointed by your willingness to pass judgment. There will be days when I screw up. If you're there when it happens, I won't be sure whether to be grateful for your generosity or feel patronized by your words because I expect them to be as much about me as they would be about my decisions.  
 
"God helps those who help themselves?"
 
A biblical reference is the last thing I expected to see after you describe a "rant" as "not out of line".
 
Did you forget Matthew 7:1?
 
Bright Blessings,
 
Mike
Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings,I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick up the pieces?Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who don't. I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were growing up for the same kind of behavior. There was a broken water main and it flooded the basements of the houses. The one guy on the street that was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums. I mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada? I am afraid they were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.How about: God helps those who help themselves?I don't see that a rant
 against people who have endangered themselves and others is out of line.And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the people of Louisianna.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[bob allen]

Kim , my apologies if my position was taken as ridicule, there was no such 
intent.  All I am trying 
to do is point out all the variables in any health decision, particularly when 
someone makes a 
blanket statement such as A is good, B is bad.

arth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital 
> importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming 
> totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the 
> things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming 
> like I am, allergic to everything.
> 
> If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be 
> it.  No need to ridicule the information.
> 
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> 
>>at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
>>chlorine bleach unsafe?
>>also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
>>chlorine ineffective
>>against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? 
>>amoeba? nematodes? etc.
>>
>>darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry
>>
>>
>>
>>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
>>>fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and
>>>child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
>>>Bright Blessings,
>>>Kim
>>>
>>>At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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>>
>>messages):
>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>___
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>>
>>messages):
>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Bob Allen
>>http://ozarker.org/bob
>>
>>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> 
>>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
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"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Ray J]

i think a few cases of bottled water and or jugs of distiled water  from 
the supermarket  will last a few years
 lol ... 



Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital 
>importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming 
>totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the 
>things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming 
>like I am, allergic to everything.
>
>If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be 
>it.  No need to ridicule the information.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>  
>
>>at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
>>chlorine bleach unsafe?
>>also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
>>chlorine ineffective
>>agai
>>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,

I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with 
people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick 
up the pieces?

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who 
don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were 
growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main 
and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that 
was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the 
money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I 
mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they 
were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.

How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and 
others is out of line.

And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the 
people of Louisianna.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:

>
>I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
>judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you 
>express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
>
>Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[bob allen]

on the safety of hydrogen peroxide, from the msds:

note at the bottom, ...may cause... death.
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydPeroxide.html



Potential Health Effects
Eye:
Causes eye burns. Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, 
redness, tearing, 
inflammation, and possible corneal injury.
Skin:
Causes skin burns.
Ingestion:
May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes 
gastrointestinal tract burns. 
May cause perforation of the digestive
tract. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with abdominal pain, nausea, 
vomiting and diarrhea.
Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. May cause irritation of the respiratory tract with burning 
pain in the nose and 
throat, coughing, wheezing,
shortness of breath and pulmonary edema. Causes chemical burns to the 
respiratory tract. May cause 
ulceration of nasal tissue, insomnia, nervous tremors with numb extremities, 
chemical pneumonia, 
unconsciousness, and death.
Chronic:
Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.

sounds pretty mean, huh?  but we know better don't we. We know that in dilute 
solutions that we 
needn't worry about the toxic effects of a 30 per cent solution.

"The dose makes the poison"
paracelsus




Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
> Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
> fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
> child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> 
>>Thanks for the info Emil.
>>I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
>>Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
>>We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
>>emergency.
>>Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
>>It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
>>Better safe than sorry.
>>Brian
>>
>>___
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Brian Rodgers]

Ok great thank you bright blessings Kim.
With all of this information coming in, sometimes it seems like
somebody can find something wrong with every remedy. I was hoping for
something a bit more... fun and less fearful than chlorine. I thought
the silver coin idea was a wives tale that some scientific type had
gone about to prove that it was indeed scientific. I don't work with
money as much as I would like (giggle) but I do recall my mom saying
it(coin) was very dirty and not put in my mouth. So wash it first
right?hehe

I think the rest of the chit-chat here has taken on sort of a dark
tone. I am  glad I didn't open my mouth about the Gulf Coast tragedy.
Here and all over I hear people voicing their judgements about the
people down there. All I can say is, "Poor people."
Nobody should suffer and for sure people shouldn't have ill intent
toward those that are suffering.
I don't really know how it is outside of my little-town life, but here
parents are in constant fear that some do-gooder is going reprimand
them for some atrocity allegedly committed. I have seen first hand
CYFD take kids out of healthy homes and send them to foster parents.
It is scary.
I hope people can keep from meddling in other peoples lives.
I am not naive, I know that at times intervention is necessary, but it
seems to me that it is way out of hand.
Brian  

On 9/1/05, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
> fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and
> child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> >Thanks for the info Emil.
> >I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
> >Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
> >We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
> >emergency.
> >Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
> >It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
> >Better safe than sorry.
> >Brian
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,

I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital 
importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming 
totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the 
things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming 
like I am, allergic to everything.

If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be 
it.  No need to ridicule the information.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
>chlorine bleach unsafe?
>also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
>chlorine ineffective
>against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? 
>amoeba? nematodes? etc.
>
>darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry
>
>
>
>Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
> > fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and
> > child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
> >
> > At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >>Thanks for the info Emil.
> >>I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
> >>Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
> >>We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
> >>emergency.
> >>Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
> >>It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
> >>Better safe than sorry.
> >>Brian
> >>
> >>___
> >>Biofuel mailing list
> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >>
> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>Bob Allen
>http://ozarker.org/bob
>
>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[bob allen]

at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
chlorine bleach unsafe?
also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
chlorine ineffective 
against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? amoeba? 
nematodes? etc.

darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry



Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
> Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
> fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
> child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> 
>>Thanks for the info Emil.
>>I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
>>Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
>>We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
>>emergency.
>>Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
>>It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
>>Better safe than sorry.
>>Brian
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>Thanks for the info Emil.
>I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
>Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
>We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
>emergency.
>Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
>It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
>Better safe than sorry.
>Brian
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Michael Redler]

Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs"?
 
...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't help myself).
 
So Greg, when you say stuff like "
 
"If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
 
Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying goes.
"If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
 
You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking orders at some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!
 
I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
 
Mike"Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans.
 Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out
 ifthat model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. If you live within 50 ft of sea level nearacoast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.Empathy? My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because ofignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed. Notforsomeone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of waterthatcould save their life.7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same asacase of beer.If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expecthelpafter a
 disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better offputtingthe money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.Witha little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard toputtogether, I have put several together for my family.If I had to leave the house:I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with someshelter.With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeksinsome comfort.With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,and4+ months in the summer.I do not live in a flood plain.I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and afireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I
 have a little wood stove Icouldinstall in a day or so ), to cook food.I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containersforanother 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal waterheater ).I have a cha

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Manzo, Emil]

You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
April
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
case
of beer, than a bus ticket.".

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a
million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have
a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as
a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to
put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some
shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,
and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I
could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers
for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and
some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several
times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the
DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during
an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
> California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
> eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is
perfect.
> No one can predict the futu

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Appal Energy]

You know Greg,

Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's 
been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few 
or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope 
that it gets no worse.

I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of 
those persons situations.

But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst 
situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to 
listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery 
as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as you.

Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are 
showing.

Todd Swearingen


Greg and April wrote:

>Yes.
>
>If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
>occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
>like ), and make preparations for them.
>
>Like I said in another post:
>
>"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
>and still got into trouble.
>
>BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
>warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
>to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
>of beer, than a bus ticket.".
>
>Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
>warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
>live below a dam.
>
>If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
>out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
>that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
>the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
>chance actualy happens.
>
>If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
>hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
>
>If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
>chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
>coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
>
>Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
>ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
>someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
>could save their life.
>
>7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
>case of beer.
>
>If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
>after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
>the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
>a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
>together, I have put several together for my family.
>
>If I had to leave the house:
>I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
>With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
>With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
>some comfort.
>With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
>sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.
>
>If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
>4+ months in the summer.
>
>I do not live in a flood plain.
>
>I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
>fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
>install in a day or so ), to cook food.
>
>I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.
>
>I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
>another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
>heater ).
>
>I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.
>
>I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
>splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
>when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).
>
>I'll say it now:
>
>If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
>would be more than happy to give any help I can!
>
>In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
>is running out.
>
>Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
>emergency, so do it before it occurs.
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 200

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

There are a few tricks to keeping water fresh.

1)Use distilled water.If you start with a sanitized barrel, and fill
it with distilled water, there is nothing to 'go bad'.

2) Rotate it every 6-8 months.

3)Bubble air through it before use.Water really doesn't go bad
unless something wasn't clean to begin with, but, it can go flat.We are
used to drinking water with some air dissolved into it, but, with water just
sitting around, the air will eventually escape from the water.

4)Remember that a doctor can cure a water born disease, but, he can not
cure a case of death by dehydration.


Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:36
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP

>
> How do you keep stored water fresh?
> Brian
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket.".

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
> California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
> eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
> No one can predict the future.
>
> Regards,
> Emil
>


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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Were you inquiring 'bad' as in micro-organisms or 'bad' as to taste?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:51
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Thanks for the info Emil.
> I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
> Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
> We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
emergency.
> Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
> It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
> Better safe than sorry.
> Brian
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Brian Rodgers]

Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Manzo, Emil]

Hi Greg. Chlorine is an excellent sanitizer. Another, lesser known one
is silver. A couple of silver coins in the barrel were used in the old
days for keeping pathogens from breeding in the water. 

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rodgers
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:37 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Hi Greg
you write>"I am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three
55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit, & vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a
thing )
to build a safe room.
Greg H."

How do you keep stored water fresh?
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Manzo, Emil]

Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
No one can predict the future.

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
April
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:57 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed
they
should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay
in
their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front
porch
and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the
reporter
to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy
is
for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
trying for a Darwin award.

I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have
the
combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter
WY
is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they
want
more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does
,
after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP

>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
> public works to drain and protect the city.
>
> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
> Hobson's choice,
>
<http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
> themselves?"
>
> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and
fairly
> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
> often floods.
>
> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
> future in the gulf states,
>
> Taryn
> ornae.com
>
> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
g
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Brian Rodgers]

Hi Greg
you write>"I am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three
55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit, & vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a thing )
to build a safe room.
Greg H."

How do you keep stored water fresh?
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket.
I have major issues with adults that through their stupidity and ignorance
killed their kids, like I said on another list:
" My heart breaks, for the kids that had no choice because their parents
were to stupid, to even try to get out of the way, and I curse those parents
for risking their kids life.If I had a say in the matter, I would bring
each and everyone of them up on charges of child endangerment.".

I had a guy on that list try and tell me that they had no warning that the
hurricane was going to be that bad, after I showed him the forecast and
warnings posted by The National Hurricane Center.He then asked me how
these people were supposed to get these warnings off the internet when the
people had no power, then I showed him that the warnings that Katrina was
going to grow stronger were posted Even As The Hurricane Was Leaving The
Florida Coast

It's one thing to break into a store to get food and water to survive after
a disaster, after your supplies have run out, it's another thing entirely
to, steal TV's, VCR's, DVD's, potato chips, soda and the like, because no
one is around.

I am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three 55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit, & vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a thing )
to build a safe room.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:17
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


Howdy Greg, you seem a little hard on those who didn't evacuate.  I can
think a couple reasons to stay put. The evacuation went well for those
with cars, as all roads were open to outgoing traffic.  But what about
those with our a car?  What are they supposed to do, walk to Arkansas?
So for those without vehicles or money to get on a bus, they walk to the
superdome.  Last I heard the roof leaks, toilets aren't working,
gunshots have stopped the evacuation to the Astrodome.  Meanwhile if you
did walk, wade, or swim to the superdome, your home and all your
possessions are left now to not only the elements, but also the looters.

I am not sure what I would of done if in their situation, but I
certainly have sympathy for their dilemma.


Greg and April wrote:
> They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
> should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.
>
> Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
> their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front
porch
> and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the
reporter
> to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
> for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
> trying for a Darwin award.
>
> I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
> refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have
the
> combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter
WY
> is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
> more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
> after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.
>
> Greg H.
>
>
>
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> SNIP
>
>
>>I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
>>governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
>>government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
>>public works to drain and protect the city.
>>
>>Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
>>generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
>>family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
>>living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
>>Hobson's choice,
>><http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
>>can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
>>themselves?"
>>
>>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[bob allen]

Howdy Greg, you seem a little hard on those who didn't evacuate.  I can 
think a couple reasons to stay put. The evacuation went well for those 
with cars, as all roads were open to outgoing traffic.  But what about 
those with our a car?  What are they supposed to do, walk to Arkansas? 
So for those without vehicles or money to get on a bus, they walk to the 
superdome.  Last I heard the roof leaks, toilets aren't working, 
gunshots have stopped the evacuation to the Astrodome.  Meanwhile if you 
did walk, wade, or swim to the superdome, your home and all your 
possessions are left now to not only the elements, but also the looters.

I am not sure what I would of done if in their situation, but I 
certainly have sympathy for their dilemma.


Greg and April wrote:
> They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
> should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.
> 
> Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
> their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front porch
> and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the reporter
> to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
> for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
> trying for a Darwin award.
> 
> I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
> refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have the
> combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter WY
> is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
> more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
> after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.
> 
> Greg H.
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
> 
> SNIP
> 
> 
>>I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
>>governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
>>government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
>>public works to drain and protect the city.
>>
>>Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
>>generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
>>family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
>>living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
>>Hobson's choice,
>><http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
>>can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
>>themselves?"
>>
>>Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
>>that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
>>highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
>>about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
>>house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
>>good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
>>than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
>>heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
>>often floods.
>>
>>Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
>>future in the gulf states,
>>
>>Taryn
>>ornae.com
>>
>>P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>>
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> 
> messages):
> 
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

Hi Greg,

On Aug 31, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Greg and April wrote:

> They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed  
> they
> should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

You guys are tough! Ok, fair enough.

> Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay  
> in
> their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front  
> porch
> and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the  
> reporter
> to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my  
> sympathy is
> for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
> trying for a Darwin award.

ROFL!  Y'know, most of us are sheep, and never do really learn to think  
for ourselves. When the shepherd drags an idiot lamb out of the  
brambles, she does a great disservice to the race of sheep, though the  
lamb may come to love her.

If we're going to assign culpability, I might first look to the media,  
the fourth estate, which has completely abandoned its role of  
supporting an informed citizenry. Eh... maybe not. After all, Fox loves  
the panic story, but they're not much for risk assessment.

> I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if  
> people
> refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't  
> have the
> combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes. 
> Wamsutter WY
> is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they  
> want
> more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans  
> does ,
> after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.
>
> Greg H.

Dunno, but there will always be those foolish and greedy enough to  
return to Orleans.
Taryn
<http://ornae.com/>


>
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> SNIP
>
>>
>> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
>> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
>> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
>> public works to drain and protect the city.
>>
>> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
>> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
>> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
>> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
>> Hobson's choice,
>> <http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/ 
>> 23.html>,
>> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
>> themselves?"
>>
>> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
>> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
>> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
>> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
>> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and  
>> fairly
>> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
>> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
>> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
>> often floods.
>>
>> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
>> future in the gulf states,
>>
>> Taryn
>> ornae.com
>>
>> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

Hi Marylynn,

The perspective you add for Louisiana's early history brings it  
strikingly close to the Netherlands, in a single overwhelming facet:
They built where they did because there was nowhere else to build.  
Where do you build if your whole territory is tidal basin, swamp and  
river delta?

As far as a "planned" city, few cities were planned then, or even now.  
Excepting cities like Washington, DC, designed (and built on reclaimed  
swamp) as a monumental city and seat of government, most american  
cities are patchwork accidents, shaped by geography, cronyism and  
profiteering far more than formal planning.

Greg said, "New Orleans is a city that should have never been built.".  
Of course that's true, but so is Venice, so is Los Angeles, so is Las  
Vegas. All of these cities have some fatal flaw; too much water, too  
little water, no local resources, etc.

And every time, folks came to settle and either did not know what  
disaster they were precipitating or just didn't care.

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

> OK .. well .. history
>
> New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
> the
> Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
> trade.
>
> But really only a port that sent goods to another land.
>
> New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
> population
> of "free black".
>
> It also needs to be understood that the majority of those "free black"  
> were
> from a line of "freed" slaves (women) who were the "contract purchased
> mistresses" of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
> "offspring" .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
> conducting
> negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
> "contract" to ensure their future wealth.
>
> The whiter the skin the more desirable.
>
> Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
> children
> fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
> ..
> these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
> scarves.
>
> I have a "thing" about "head scarves"!!
>
> .. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
> German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
> bit of Swedish (as if a "bit of anything" could fit in there).
>
> The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
> neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
> his
> "contract acquired" (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
> contracts .. and even if the the "gentleman" grew tired of his  
> mistress ..
> the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
> in the
> name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.
>
> If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
> another
> woman.
>
> New Orleans wasn't a "planned" neighborhood .. but historically, it  
> has gain
> a certain reputation of being a great place to party.
>
> Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
> follows.
>
> The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
> population ..
> the businesses .. and the party.
>
> .. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
> French .. a large percentage of the "free black" disappeared (sold  
> north)
> and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.
>
> Mary Lynn
> Mary Lynn Schmidt
> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
> TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained
> Minister .
> Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition .  
> Homeopathy .
> Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel
> The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
> http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
>
>
>> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:36:29 -0600
>>
>> I sorry as all get out for the folks in New Orleans.
>>
>> But
>>
>> New Orleans is a city that should have never been built.
>>
>> I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for  
>> all
>> the problems.
>>
>> I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
>> drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it  
>> became
>> an
>> important enough port to cause congress to pass the various 

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front porch
and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the reporter
to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
trying for a Darwin award.

I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have the
combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter WY
is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP

>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
> public works to drain and protect the city.
>
> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
> Hobson's choice,
> <http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
> themselves?"
>
> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
> often floods.
>
> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
> future in the gulf states,
>
> Taryn
> ornae.com
>
> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Marylynn Schmidt]

OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called the 
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a population 
of "free black".

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those "free black" were 
from a line of "freed" slaves (women) who were the "contract purchased 
mistresses" of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their 
"offspring" .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers conducting 
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible 
"contract" to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having children 
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there .. 
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head 
scarves.

I have a "thing" about "head scarves"!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a 
bit of Swedish (as if a "bit of anything" could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of 
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for his 
"contract acquired" (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual 
contracts .. and even if the the "gentleman" grew tired of his mistress .. 
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was in the 
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with another 
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a "planned" neighborhood .. but historically, it has gain 
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business 
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the population .. 
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the 
French .. a large percentage of the "free black" disappeared (sold north) 
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.

Mary Lynn
Mary Lynn Schmidt
ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained 
Minister .
Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . 
Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel
The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/


>From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:36:29 -0600
>
>I sorry as all get out for the folks in New Orleans.
>
>But
>
>New Orleans is a city that should have never been built.
>
>I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for all
>the problems.
>
>I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
>drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it became 
>an
>important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and laws
>that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry the
>larger burden of guilt.
>
>Since I first learned of the below sea level issues surrounding New 
>Orleans,
>I have often wondered if the U.S. would be better served by letting go of
>the present location of the city, and rebuilding in a location better 
>suited
>for a city.
>
>Several times I have tried to tally the total preventive and running
>maintenance cost of trying to prevent, what has now happened in New 
>Orleans,
>but, have failed each time.With the millions spent each year, the total
>must be in the billions by now.And now they have to rebuild virtually
>the entire city?
>
>I always wonder if the city is worth what it would take to move it or (
>recalling Popular Science articles ), build a floating city, that would be
>anchored in place and "float" on top of the swampy soil.
>http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/technology_watch/1284346.html
>http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/transportation/1289186.html
>http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281531.html
>It is not like they couldn't do it so it can let a hurricane blow over ( 
>and
>under in the case of storm surge ) them, the technology is now available
>just look at the gulf coast oil platforms.
>
>I think it is going to be interesting to see, how many people and companies
>leave the area, because the cost of rebuilding ( not to mention insurance )
>will be to

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

They do, but, from my understanding, most of the low laying areas are rural.

I don't know of any hurricanes that have hit the Netherlands as well,
Louisiana has a ongoing history of them.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:41
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> I think they live below sea-level in the Netherlands too? People have to
> live somewhere. We do the best we can with the tools we have. OK, back
> to finding energy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TarynToo
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:12 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> Hi, Juan and Greg
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Juan Gutierrez wrote:
>
> > People, were there first and form there own local governments before
> > the feds showed up.
> > besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you
> > want the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live.
> > I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak
> > of its all swamps west of Miami.
> >
>
> And Greg wrote:
>
> > I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for
> > all
> > the problems.
> >
> > I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
> > drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it
> > became an
> > important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and
> > laws
> > that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry
> > the
> > larger burden of guilt.
>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
> public works to drain and protect the city.
>
> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
> Hobson's choice,
> <http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
> themselves?"
>
> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
> often floods.
>
> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
> future in the gulf states,
>
> Taryn
> ornae.com
>
> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
> g
>
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>
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> messages):
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>
>
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>
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messages):
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Manzo, Emil]

How right you are. Living in Florida USA my mortgage requires storm
insurance. Our carrier cancelled us (no reason given). Upon renewal we
expect a higher premium but there will also be extra charges to fund the
"uninsurable". I thought it was noble to help protect the poor but later
found that "Uninsurable" means beachfront. So, I will be subsidizing
those wealthy folks living on the beach. Fortunately over the years we
accelerated payment on the mortgage. We have a plan to pay it off and
drop the insurance all together. There is a moderate risk here, as there
is almost anywhere else I guess. But you folks nailed the issue right on
the nose. Insurance is meant for "intelligent" risk, not reckless
stupidity. I don't know where this mindeset originiates.
Regards,
Emil 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:24 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




TarynToo wrote:

Snip

>But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a
>muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments 
>issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire

>policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and

>flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from 
>headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should 
>governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of 
>Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?
>  
>

On a similar note I remember reading about how construction of  homes, 
buildings and even schools is being done right on top of the San Andreas

fault in California.  One of the criterea for the house I bought was 
that it be cloe to a high point of land in my area.  I would never buy 
or build in a flood plain or sea coast (unless it was solid rock with 
high cliffs), avalanche or mudslide area etc etc etc.  Despite all of 
our wonderful scientific knowledge we cannot ever believe we are above 
Nature (with a capital N) to do so is foolhardy.

Joe


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Manzo, Emil]

I think they live below sea-level in the Netherlands too? People have to
live somewhere. We do the best we can with the tools we have. OK, back
to finding energy 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TarynToo
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:12 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Hi, Juan and Greg


On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Juan Gutierrez wrote:

> People, were there first and form there own local governments before 
> the feds showed up.
> besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you 
> want the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live.
> I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak 
> of its all swamps west of Miami.
>

And Greg wrote:

> I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for 
> all
> the problems.
>
> I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
> drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it 
> became an
> important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and 
> laws
> that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry 
> the
> larger burden of guilt.

I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said 
governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of 
government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started 
public works to drain and protect the city.

Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few 
generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a 
family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent 
living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in 
Hobson's choice, 
<http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>, 
can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for 
themselves?"

Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is) 
that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the 
highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it, 
about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this 
house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly 
good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better 
than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the 
heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp 
often floods.

Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying 
future in the gulf states,

Taryn
ornae.com

P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

Hi, Juan and Greg


On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Juan Gutierrez wrote:

> People, were there first and form there own local governments before 
> the feds showed up.
> besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you 
> want the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live.
> I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak 
> of its all swamps west of Miami.
>

And Greg wrote:

> I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for 
> all
> the problems.
>
> I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
> drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it 
> became an
> important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and 
> laws
> that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry 
> the
> larger burden of guilt.

I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said 
governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of 
government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started 
public works to drain and protect the city.

Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few 
generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a 
family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent 
living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in 
Hobson's choice, 
, 
can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for 
themselves?"

Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is) 
that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the 
highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it, 
about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this 
house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly 
good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better 
than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the 
heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp 
often floods.

Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying 
future in the gulf states,

Taryn
ornae.com

P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Joe Street]

TarynToo wrote:

Snip

>But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a 
>muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments 
>issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire 
>policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and 
>flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from 
>headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should 
>governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of 
>Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?
>  
>

On a similar note I remember reading about how construction of  homes, 
buildings and even schools is being done right on top of the San Andreas 
fault in California.  One of the criterea for the house I bought was 
that it be cloe to a high point of land in my area.  I would never buy 
or build in a flood plain or sea coast (unless it was solid rock with 
high cliffs), avalanche or mudslide area etc etc etc.  Despite all of 
our wonderful scientific knowledge we cannot ever believe we are above 
Nature (with a capital N) to do so is foolhardy.

Joe


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

I sorry as all get out for the folks in New Orleans.

But

New Orleans is a city that should have never been built.

I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for all
the problems.

I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it became an
important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and laws
that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry the
larger burden of guilt.

Since I first learned of the below sea level issues surrounding New Orleans,
I have often wondered if the U.S. would be better served by letting go of
the present location of the city, and rebuilding in a location better suited
for a city.

Several times I have tried to tally the total preventive and running
maintenance cost of trying to prevent, what has now happened in New Orleans,
but, have failed each time.With the millions spent each year, the total
must be in the billions by now.And now they have to rebuild virtually
the entire city?

I always wonder if the city is worth what it would take to move it or (
recalling Popular Science articles ), build a floating city, that would be
anchored in place and "float" on top of the swampy soil.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/technology_watch/1284346.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/transportation/1289186.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281531.html
It is not like they couldn't do it so it can let a hurricane blow over ( and
under in the case of storm surge ) them, the technology is now available
just look at the gulf coast oil platforms.

I think it is going to be interesting to see, how many people and companies
leave the area, because the cost of rebuilding ( not to mention insurance )
will be to high.

How many more hurricanes will it take for New Orleans to wake up to it's
problems?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 22:08
Subject: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and
> gave my neighborhood a little slap, on her way out to the warm gulf
> waters, where she organized into a cat 5 hurricane. Now 1.5 million
> people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New Orleans
> alone. There's no guessing how many will be dead when all is accounted
> for.
>
> Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are.
> Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are.
> Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it
> a city. <http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html>
> And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 2000
> miles of winding bottomland river into a 1000 mile ditch, contained
> (theoretically) by 14 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill
> the bottomland right up to the levies.
>
> In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp
> into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or
> preserve. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that
> flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want
> to take them out of production. Of course if you dam off the river, the
> plain is no longer renewed, topsoil leaches away, and the land starts
> to sink even lower.  Then there are lots of places in this country
> where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous location,
> like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic coast, or
> the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.
>
> People have to find work, they have to live where they work. New
> Orleans grew where it did because it was a handy place for a port that
> served the Mississippi, there was rich fishing in the gulf, it was
> marginally drier than much of the wetland around it.
> But, like Venice, it's been sinking since it was built,
> <http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html> and just
> like the proverbial frog in a slowly heating kettle, few have ever
> decided it was time to get out.
>
> But you can't expect to live below sea level next to a sea, or on a
> flood plain, or a sand bar, or a muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest,
> and be safe. Should governments issue building permits in swamps?
> Should insurance companies write fire policies on wooden houses in pine
> forests? Flood policies on swamps and flood plains? Should governments
> try to control mighty rivers from headwaters to delta, destroying
> wetlands and the buffering swamp?  Should governments dredge millions
> of tons of sand back onto the beaches of Miami eve

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Juan Gutierrez]

People, were there first and form there own local governments before the 
feds showed up.
besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you want 
the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live.
I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak of its 
all swamps west of Miami.




From: TarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:20:11 -0400

I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and
gave my neighborhood a teeny slap, on her way out to the gulf. Now 1.5
million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New
Orleans alone.

Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are.
Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are.
Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it
a city. <http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html>
And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 1200
miles of winding bottomland river into an 800 mile ditch, contained
(theoretically) by 7 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill
the bottomland right up to the levies.

In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp
into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or
wetlands. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that
flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want
to take them out of production. There are lots of places in this
country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous
location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic
coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.

But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a
muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments
issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire
policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and
flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from
headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should
governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of
Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?

People have to find work, they have to live where they work, what can
you do?

Taryn
ornae.com


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Brian Rodgers]

Very true.  My home is on the edge of a pine forest and has been here
since before it was fashionable to build in the forest. I don't cary
nearly the concern for humanity that many others do. It is my opinion
that the old Toyota slogan says it all, "You asked for it, you got
it!"
Many people have become disassociated with nature. They believe they
can abuse mother nature without consequence.

Here in Northern New Mexico we had a lot of help from the Park Service
a few years back when one of their controlled burns took out nearly
half of the town of Los Alamos. No lives were lost so I felt it was
appropriate to give a little chuckle, under my breath of course.
Yuppies, the scourge of America seem to think it would be fun to build
half million dollar houses in remote areas and check-in to nature with
room service. Good riddance when their crap burns.
Brian Rodgers

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Mike Weaver]

We do the same things with barriar islands up here then get all upset 
when they blow away.

TarynToo wrote:

>I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and 
>gave my neighborhood a little slap, on her way out to the warm gulf 
>waters, where she organized into a cat 5 hurricane. Now 1.5 million 
>people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New Orleans 
>alone. There's no guessing how many will be dead when all is accounted 
>for.
>
>Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are. 
>Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are. 
>Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it 
>a city. 
>And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 2000 
>miles of winding bottomland river into a 1000 mile ditch, contained 
>(theoretically) by 14 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill 
>the bottomland right up to the levies.
>
>In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp 
>into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or 
>preserve. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that 
>flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want 
>to take them out of production. Of course if you dam off the river, the 
>plain is no longer renewed, topsoil leaches away, and the land starts 
>to sink even lower.  Then there are lots of places in this country 
>where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous location, 
>like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic coast, or 
>the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.
>
>People have to find work, they have to live where they work. New 
>Orleans grew where it did because it was a handy place for a port that 
>served the Mississippi, there was rich fishing in the gulf, it was 
>marginally drier than much of the wetland around it.
>But, like Venice, it's been sinking since it was built, 
> and just 
>like the proverbial frog in a slowly heating kettle, few have ever 
>decided it was time to get out.
>
>But you can't expect to live below sea level next to a sea, or on a 
>flood plain, or a sand bar, or a muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, 
>and be safe. Should governments issue building permits in swamps? 
>Should insurance companies write fire policies on wooden houses in pine 
>forests? Flood policies on swamps and flood plains? Should governments 
>try to control mighty rivers from headwaters to delta, destroying 
>wetlands and the buffering swamp?  Should governments dredge millions 
>of tons of sand back onto the beaches of Miami every time a hurricane 
>scours them out? Do citizens have a right to settle in the path of 
>disaster? Does government have an obligation to make extraordinary 
>efforts to save them from that disaster?
>
>Whether we ever get New Orleans dry again, or not, perhaps it should be 
>condemned as unfit for human habitation. Made partly into a memorial 
>(To stubborn denial in the face of the obvious?) and the rest back to 
>wetland. We certainly need the wetlands, and I'd bet that if the 
>Mississippi was allowed to set her own course, in only a decade or two 
>the entire bowl of New Orleans would become fine breeding grounds, once 
>again filling the gulf with life.
>
>I'm not sure I even know my own position on all this, but I've lived in 
>the path of hurricanes for many years.  I can't help but stroll the 
>beaches of our barrier islands, looking at houses and condos, built on 
>SAND BARS, and ask, "Are these people nuts? How can they live here and 
>expect sympathy and support when a storm sweeps the land right out from 
>under them? What lunatic zoning board said it was alright to sell 
>condos on sand bars?" The buildings do sit on pilings driven a dozen 
>meters or more into our very soft bedrock, but that only means they 
>might not wash away immediately, instead perching on stilts in the 
>Atlantic ocean, when the storm moves the barrier island out from under 
>them. And it will, sooner or later.
>
>Taryn
>ornae.com
>
>
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>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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>  
>


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[Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and 
gave my neighborhood a little slap, on her way out to the warm gulf 
waters, where she organized into a cat 5 hurricane. Now 1.5 million 
people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New Orleans 
alone. There's no guessing how many will be dead when all is accounted 
for.

Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are. 
Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are. 
Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it 
a city. 
And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 2000 
miles of winding bottomland river into a 1000 mile ditch, contained 
(theoretically) by 14 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill 
the bottomland right up to the levies.

In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp 
into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or 
preserve. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that 
flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want 
to take them out of production. Of course if you dam off the river, the 
plain is no longer renewed, topsoil leaches away, and the land starts 
to sink even lower.  Then there are lots of places in this country 
where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous location, 
like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic coast, or 
the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.

People have to find work, they have to live where they work. New 
Orleans grew where it did because it was a handy place for a port that 
served the Mississippi, there was rich fishing in the gulf, it was 
marginally drier than much of the wetland around it.
But, like Venice, it's been sinking since it was built, 
 and just 
like the proverbial frog in a slowly heating kettle, few have ever 
decided it was time to get out.

But you can't expect to live below sea level next to a sea, or on a 
flood plain, or a sand bar, or a muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, 
and be safe. Should governments issue building permits in swamps? 
Should insurance companies write fire policies on wooden houses in pine 
forests? Flood policies on swamps and flood plains? Should governments 
try to control mighty rivers from headwaters to delta, destroying 
wetlands and the buffering swamp?  Should governments dredge millions 
of tons of sand back onto the beaches of Miami every time a hurricane 
scours them out? Do citizens have a right to settle in the path of 
disaster? Does government have an obligation to make extraordinary 
efforts to save them from that disaster?

Whether we ever get New Orleans dry again, or not, perhaps it should be 
condemned as unfit for human habitation. Made partly into a memorial 
(To stubborn denial in the face of the obvious?) and the rest back to 
wetland. We certainly need the wetlands, and I'd bet that if the 
Mississippi was allowed to set her own course, in only a decade or two 
the entire bowl of New Orleans would become fine breeding grounds, once 
again filling the gulf with life.

I'm not sure I even know my own position on all this, but I've lived in 
the path of hurricanes for many years.  I can't help but stroll the 
beaches of our barrier islands, looking at houses and condos, built on 
SAND BARS, and ask, "Are these people nuts? How can they live here and 
expect sympathy and support when a storm sweeps the land right out from 
under them? What lunatic zoning board said it was alright to sell 
condos on sand bars?" The buildings do sit on pilings driven a dozen 
meters or more into our very soft bedrock, but that only means they 
might not wash away immediately, instead perching on stilts in the 
Atlantic ocean, when the storm moves the barrier island out from under 
them. And it will, sooner or later.

Taryn
ornae.com


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[Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[TarynToo]

I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and 
gave my neighborhood a teeny slap, on her way out to the gulf. Now 1.5 
million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New 
Orleans alone.

Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are. 
Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are. 
Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it 
a city. 
And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 1200 
miles of winding bottomland river into an 800 mile ditch, contained 
(theoretically) by 7 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill 
the bottomland right up to the levies.

In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp 
into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or 
wetlands. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that 
flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want 
to take them out of production. There are lots of places in this 
country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous 
location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic 
coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.

But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a 
muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments 
issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire 
policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and 
flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from 
headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should 
governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of 
Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?

People have to find work, they have to live where they work, what can 
you do?

Taryn
ornae.com


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