Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
That would be a different page. We wouldn't do such a page. The JtF website had visitors from 187 countries last month, not just the US. Yes, and this has what to do with the question at hand? The original poster is clearly in Canada or the US as the Jetta is only sold in North America. To claim that a page called The TDI-SVO controversy needs updating because it lacks information on US spec biodiesel in a PD engine is preposterous, it has nothing to do with running a TDI on Straight Vegetable Oil. Then why did you refer Mel Gildow to that page when his question was clearly about biodiesel and not SVO? If the page has nothing to BD and PD TDIs, why send him there? After all, the url *is* /biodiesel_TDI.html, not /SVO_TDI.html Can you see how this might be misleading as to the focus of the page? Oh come off it John! You're clutching at straws. SVO is dealt with in the Biodiesel section, as a sub-set. There isn't a separate SVO section, nor will there be. That TDI page isn't even accessible directly from the Biodiesel section, only from the main SVO page. It's a url, the page has a Title, which appears at the top of the browser window, far outweighing whatever it may say obscurely in the url code, the title is The TDI-SVO controversy, and there's a big red headline right at the top saying the same thing. If you want to think that's misleading, well, suit yourself. Look Keith, how you organize and title your webpages is your business. If you don't want to include North American specific information on your website, that's your choice given your global focus. But frankly, I *do* find it misleading to point a North American reader to the SVO-TDI controversy page and imply that there are no issues with US BD in a PD when asked a question about biodiesel usage in said engine. Hakan is right; the unit injector engines appear to run just fine on Euro-spec BD. But you can't blame the messenger (me) when I point out that your advice (Biodiesel's no problem) is misleading for a North American PD owner. Nor do I think I'm being Amerocentric when I suggest that your page reflect the North American fuel situation if you're gonna give advice to North Americans. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Hello Keith I wasn't being at all combative, but it seems you are. It was not my intention to be combative to you. I tried to use arguments, and point on the controversy between what I know works and what some studies says don«t work. I don«t invent them, and tried to give you some examples. Maybe my English skills are not that well. The critical piece from my Folkecenter is still there. It was just moved to a /press folder, and I sent the link in the previous mail. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/press/pressr_rapeseed_18012001.htm The story never really reached the Danish medias by the way, because we were fast out with the critical piece, and asked the interested journalists the 2 usual questions: 1)which engine was used, and 2) which fuel quality did they use. niels ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh Furthermore, I believe that any commercial producer of BD should cover any fuel related failures. The same goes for petrol diesel. If the filter clogs, that is never covered under warrenty. It's known as routine maintenance. I recently installed a CAT fuel filter, which the big rigs use in my VW for extra its filtering capacity at 2 microns. Your PD needs plenty of flow, which the CAT delivers. Again, check out the tdiclub.com, if you would like more info. Thanks, Todd This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
The speaker at the biodiesel lecture at the TX Green Energy Roundup on Friday said that the new 2005 biodiesel autos (and I think he said VW's) are coming off the line from the manufacturer with a blended biodiesel product in their engines. Can't blame a customer for the manufacturer's choice. It sets the precedent. Someone might ant to substantiate this comment. Peggy Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh Furthermore, I believe that any commercial producer of BD should cover any fuel related failures. The same goes for petrol diesel. If the filter clogs, that is never covered under warrenty. It's known as routine maintenance. I recently installed a CAT fuel filter, which the big rigs use in my VW for extra its filtering capacity at 2 microns. Your PD needs plenty of flow, which the CAT delivers. Again, check out the tdiclub.com, if you would like more info. Thanks, Todd This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
I've used b10, b20, b30, b50,b80 all approximate percentages and with zero problems in my 96 passat tdi. If you go to www.tdiclub.com you will find many many tdi owners (older and new vehicles) using b100 for years with no problems. Chuck - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI - Original Message - From: m gildow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:43 PM Subject: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? What does the instruction booklet say? If the factory forbids the use of bio, stick with it. I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Well, Mel, ( I just had to do that) from what is my understanding ALL new model european cars are BD friendly since the 80's. I could be a little off on the actual dates but it is a sure thing for recent models, from the info posted here in the past. L. Not true. Opel in his new DI engines forbidds use of bio in any form. New VW models do not tolerate biodiesel also (any form, not even B5) in some engines. We have had a LC Toyota (100 series) with a totally broken IP after only 6.000 km on neat bio (costly repair, 12.000 US). We've been in the EU for a very short time (meaning biofuels are legal now in Slovenija) and have had serious damage on engines. I could go on and on: BMW - no good OBD shuts the engine down, Peugeot - will stop engine, beacuse antiPM chemical injected in the exhaust is not compatible with neat bio, Mercedes - OBD gets all fuzzy, can't recognize the neat bio as a fuel ... I recently learned thet people in Germany, though having neat bio at quite a lot of fuel stations, actually don't drive on it and strongly recommend against. Except for farmers and bus fleets owned by cities, very few people drive on bio. VW alone reported about 20M? spent in repairs on warranted VW cars in 2003 for biodiesel usage related damages. Sooo: not all cars come biodiesel ready. Some need to be ordered biodiesel compliant (BMW, Merc, ...) some don't even have this option. Specially suited are older TDIs, most prechamber engines (modification), most new heavy machinery diesels (some need the obvious hoses and gasket change, CAT for example) and most newer gensets. I'm not having good experiences with my car, and I have certified DIN compliant fuel. And, it's not only the gaskets on the pump shaft, if you're wondering. The whole rotor assembly needed to be renewed, it wasn't very expensive, but this means the fuel is not safe for my car in its neat form. Cheers Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
I've used b10, b20, b30, b50,b80 all approximate percentages and with zero problems in my 96 passat tdi. If you go to www.tdiclub.com you will find many many tdi owners (older and new vehicles) using b100 for years with no problems. No one is disputing that pre-2004 TDIs run BD just fine. The question Mel asked, as I understood it, was whether the higher injector pressure found in the new unit injector (Pumpe Duse) engines is incompatible with biodiesel usage. The Bosch designed unit injectors found in the PD engines get up into the neighborhood of 20,000 psi. Questions have been raised on whether BD use is appropriate at such pressures. My understanding is that these pressures are much much higher than either the old distributor pump or common rail designs used in other models. My original point remains unchanged; do not assume that experience with pre2004 TDIs and BD use can be extrapolated to new PD engines. This is not to say that they won't be fine, but the history just isn't there...yet. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
JH, Since 2004 VW models in Europe are certified by VW for use with RME, the question should not be about blanket use of biodiesel. Keith once posted effects of different feed stock on biodiesel and this is maybe a question. Hakan At 04:43 AM 9/27/2004, you wrote: cblumenthal wrote: I've used b10, b20, b30, b50,b80 all approximate percentages and with zero problems in my 96 passat tdi. If you go to www.tdiclub.com you will find many many tdi owners (older and new vehicles) using b100 for years with no problems. No one is disputing that pre-2004 TDIs run BD just fine. The question Mel asked, as I understood it, was whether the higher injector pressure found in the new unit injector (Pumpe Duse) engines is incompatible with biodiesel usage. The Bosch designed unit injectors found in the PD engines get up into the neighborhood of 20,000 psi. Questions have been raised on whether BD use is appropriate at such pressures. My understanding is that these pressures are much much higher than either the old distributor pump or common rail designs used in other models. My original point remains unchanged; do not assume that experience with pre2004 TDIs and BD use can be extrapolated to new PD engines. This is not to say that they won't be fine, but the history just isn't there...yet. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
cblumenthal wrote: I've used b10, b20, b30, b50,b80 all approximate percentages and with zero problems in my 96 passat tdi. If you go to www.tdiclub.com you will find many many tdi owners (older and new vehicles) using b100 for years with no problems. No one is disputing that pre-2004 TDIs run BD just fine. The question Mel asked, as I understood it, was whether the higher injector pressure found in the new unit injector (Pumpe Duse) engines is incompatible with biodiesel usage. The Bosch designed unit injectors found in the PD engines get up into the neighborhood of 20,000 psi. Questions have been raised on whether BD use is appropriate at such pressures. My understanding is that these pressures are much much higher than either the old distributor pump or common rail designs used in other models. My original point remains unchanged; do not assume that experience with pre2004 TDIs and BD use can be extrapolated to new PD engines. This is not to say that they won't be fine, but the history just isn't there...yet. jh I see you still haven't looked at the page I referred to, which you said needed updating (which it doesn't), so I referred you to it again: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Please note, if nothing else, that it's about SVO. Anyway, this is one thing you'd have found there: ... Siemens, Delphi and Bosch all are ramping production of sophisticated new injectors that can handle today's sky-high fuel pressure, and inject infinitesimal fuel droplets so quickly that upcoming diesels may at times employ as many as five distinct injections for each cylinder's combustion 'event.' ... the most promising advantage of common-rail technology is the ability to deliver extremely high fuel pressures on the order of 23,000 psi (1,600 bar) or more. This type of pressure means that in microseconds, astonishingly tiny fuel droplets can be injected; these droplets more effectively mix with the induction air, boosting power production and reducing emissions. Only Volkswagen AG, Europe's diesel volume-sales leader, has resisted the common-rail development path, instead relying on its unique 'unit injector' system that combines each injector with an integral fuel pump, energized by its own lobe on the camshaft. This system develops pressures of up to 29,300 psi (2,020 bar)... -- From Super Diesels!, Ward's Auto World, September 1, 2001 http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle.asp?magazineid=50releaseid= 8418magazinearticleid=118355siteid=26 23,000 psi, 29,300 psi... Note the date - 2001. Keith Addison ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Please let me contribute to the SVO PDI/TDI discussion (PDI=Pumpe Dse=Unit Injection) - Using SVO in TDI«s and PDI«s it not an issue when using proper conversion technology and proper SVO fuel quality, meeting the limits specified e.g. in the German RK standard. Proper conversion included injectors, glow plugs, timing and other fuel settings. Of course the future perspective is that the engine manufactures will make the engines SVO ready from the factory. - See some SVO 1-tank cars here. We made 65 so fare. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/converted_cars_examples.htm - We never had any problems with injection pumps or injectors due to high viscosity cold SVO. The conversion includes overpressure protection of the injection pumps if there's a risk (typically on rotary pumps on pre chamber engines) - Personally I have driven my IDI car more than 5 years always on 100% SVO, never diesel or other additives. It never caused any kind of problem. Our winters offers temperatures down to minus 10-15¡C. - We have converted several TDI«s and one PDI with SVO 1-tank system + heater(boiler) for the winter start. It works absolutely fine. The PDI is a LUPO 3L 1.2, and runs on Faroe Island for 1¸ year now. They have about 5-10¡C ambient temperature around the year. Some of the TDI«s have passed 2 years and about 100.000km. We have imported one TDI from Germany which had passed 330.000km on SVO with 1-tank system. - In winter time the TDI starts direct on SVO even without preheating with the boiler, but to reduce SVO pollution of the lubrication oil, the boiler should preheat at temperatures below 5-10¡C. So if you«ve got an emergency situation, you can startgo without preheating, but don«t do it each time. - 2 weeks ago I tried the new VW Touran 2.0 PDI(4 valves/cyl) with 1-tank system. It was very very convincing, both the start and driving. The German company who converted it claims that the make the type emission approval for all there conversions, which for this car is EURO4. - SVO professionals claims that the high injection pressure is not an issue. If you study the German 100 tractor programme, you will see that some of the most successful conversions use PDI technology. - The original 3-cyl 1.5liter Elsbett engine had PDI system 30 years ago, so it is not new. - If you want to show that SVO in diesels doesn't work, I can help you with links to several other useless studies, like the one on Keith«s The TDI-SVO controversy page. Usually you just need to ask two questions to find out that those studies are useless. 1) What kind of engine conversion did they use. 2) What kind of fuel did they use. Usually you will find that the engine was not converted, at least not by professionals, and that the fuel quality didn't meet the limits, or that fuel quality wasn't considered. In the mentioned study they even find problems with flow of oils from the fuel tank to the engine, blockages in filters and subsequent engine power losses. Even if preheating is used to lower the viscosity, difficulties may still be encountered with starting due to the temperatures required for oils to give off ignitable vapours . If these are problems, it«s a wonder that anything in this world works, and that we can survive. - I agree we miss scientific studies, which verifies to positive experiences with SVO. One reason is that the real professionals try to protect there knowledge, and therefore keeps everything for them self. Another problem is that all research money is allocated for everything else that SVO studies because SVO doesn't have academic appeal. - SVO appears now in the European Biofuel Directive on the list of accepted Biofuels. It was not an Oops mistake by the officials in the EU Commission. It was very hard work to get it there, and it was only possible because there exist so many good working practical examples, and some relative limited documentation. best regards niels ans¿ Denmark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: 23. september 2004 20:46 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI John Hayes wrote: m gildow wrote: Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Hi Mel. The page Keith refered you to probably needs to be updated. As Keith said, in an 2003 TDI or earlier, biodiesel is absolutely fine. It does not need to be updated. Did you look at it? It's about TDIs and SVO, not TDIs and biodiesel. I said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy It will apply even more so to the PD injection pump and SVO/WVO
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Isn't it jusr a 5% blend of RME (rape methyl ester)? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 24 September 2004 04:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan At 10:35 AM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Isn't it jusr a 5% blend of RME (rape methyl ester)? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 24 September 2004 04:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks Hakan, have you seen the technology I've been using to make fossil fuel more energy efficient. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 27 September 2004 12:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan At 10:35 AM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Isn't it jusr a 5% blend of RME (rape methyl ester)? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 24 September 2004 04:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
generally very bad at promoting SVO, biodieselers are much better. I think this is one of the problems (from the TDI-SVO controversy page): ... He seems to be using more than just the usual two tanks and heating. Over 60,000km... -- 37,000 miles, good going, but still not very much for a diesel. When he makes it to 250,000, he'll have proved something, if he keeps proper records, but still not that much: that engine, under those conditions, with that system, using that oil. But it'll help. There are so many variables with SVO. Darren Hill and Paddy Goat have been running their users' database for a while now (which I believe I chivvied them into doing, all Paddy was doing was whingeing), certainly worth doing, but it would still be difficult to get what a scientist would call solid data out of it. Hopefully the sheer weight of it will eventually overcome that objection. - SVO appears now in the European Biofuel Directive on the list of accepted Biofuels. It was not an Oops mistake by the officials in the EU Commission. It was very hard work to get it there, and it was only possible because there exist so many good working practical examples, and some relative limited documentation. Good work! I'm glad there were enough good examples to get that done, but really it's still just a fringe, a small minority. It'll take time. I agree the object is to put pressure on the manufacturers, but not by sweeping problems under the carpet and pretending they don't exist, which some SVO people have tended to do. Anyway, Niels, if you like, I can add this very useful comment from you to that TDI controversy page. It could sure use something on the pro side, I've been waiting for it, but there's been very little that's had any substance, if anything. I don't want to tell Adam Khan his study is useless though. Did you read the whole report? Regards Keith best regards niels ans¿ Denmark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: 23. september 2004 20:46 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI John Hayes wrote: m gildow wrote: Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Hi Mel. The page Keith refered you to probably needs to be updated. As Keith said, in an 2003 TDI or earlier, biodiesel is absolutely fine. It does not need to be updated. Did you look at it? It's about TDIs and SVO, not TDIs and biodiesel. I said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy It will apply even more so to the PD injection pump and SVO/WVO. Best Keith However, with regard to the new Pumpe Duse (PD) injection found in the 2004 TDIs, the jury is still out on whether BD is a good idea. It may be fine, but at this point, it simply does not have the track record of the earlier engines. You will find a lot of heated debate on this topic from both sides over at tdiclub.com. You will find lots of definative declarations for both sides, when the truth is somewhere in between. For example, this website http://www.channel4.com/4car/buying-guide/faq/biofuels/biofuels-7.html claims that all Audis and VWs, including the PD engines, are B100 compatible. Yet, on the next page, they refer to biodiesel having the proper octane. If they can't tell octane from cetane, I'm not sure I'd trust their other statements. In any case, VWoA does not warranty any fuel issues, biodiesel or petrodiesel. If you got a bad tank of petrodiesel that ruined your injector pump, VW wouldn't cover that either. In my case, my dealership says BD is fine in my 03 Jetta but my father in law was explicitly warned not to put BD into his new 04 Passat. So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan == Hi Hakan, The state of Minnesota has a relatively new 2% (B2) requirement for biodiesel. This mandate is the first in the USA. Its a good way to allow the startup operations for biodiesel production plants. They are building one now in southwest MN. The transportation companies did not like the mandate. It was supposed to raised the cost of diesel about 0.03 USD. I believe the railroad industry and internal mining operations (taconite iron) are exempt. I thought it sounded a little funny (B2), but it is better than nothing and it is a beginning. We also have to remember that outdoor temperatures can drop to -37.7 degrees Celsius (-36 F.) during the winter months. http://www.newrules.org/agri/biodieselmn.html Ron B. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Don, I cannot remember at the moment, but if you have a link I like to look at it. Hakan At 01:14 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Thanks Hakan, have you seen the technology I've been using to make fossil fuel more energy efficient. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 27 September 2004 12:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan At 10:35 AM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Isn't it jusr a 5% blend of RME (rape methyl ester)? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 24 September 2004 04:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Don, I suspect that the B2-B5 alternative has nothing really to do with going biofuel. Logically it only have any meaning for the automotive industry as a preparation on going ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel), where it serves as an excellent and necessary lubricant. Since the US industry does not have the same advanced diesel engines as the Europeans, it would help them in the all so important truck business. Anything between B20 and B100 make some sense, but B2-B5 only for lubricant in ULSD. Hakan At 02:29 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan == Hi Hakan, The state of Minnesota has a relatively new 2% (B2) requirement for biodiesel. This mandate is the first in the USA. Its a good way to allow the startup operations for biodiesel production plants. They are building one now in southwest MN. The transportation companies did not like the mandate. It was supposed to raised the cost of diesel about 0.03 USD. I believe the railroad industry and internal mining operations (taconite iron) are exempt. I thought it sounded a little funny (B2), but it is better than nothing and it is a beginning. We also have to remember that outdoor temperatures can drop to -37.7 degrees Celsius (-36 F.) during the winter months. http://www.newrules.org/agri/biodieselmn.html Ron B. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Sorry, Hakan. I thought that I had attached it. maybe this did not work thro' the system so I'll try this direct reply approach. See attachment Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 27 September 2004 13:58 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Don, I cannot remember at the moment, but if you have a link I like to look at it. Hakan At 01:14 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Thanks Hakan, have you seen the technology I've been using to make fossil fuel more energy efficient. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 27 September 2004 12:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan At 10:35 AM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Isn't it jusr a 5% blend of RME (rape methyl ester)? Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 24 September 2004 04:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
I see you still haven't looked at the page I referred to, which you said needed updating (which it doesn't), so I referred you to it again Actually, I have read it and in fact have referred others to it on a regular basis. I am quite aware that it refers to SVO and not BD. However, *you* referred Mel to it when his original question dealt with biodiesel, not SVO. You said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. I disagree, and feel that the page should be updated to include the fact that US spec BD may not be appropriate in a PD TDI. If you feel that particular page is focused on SVO specifically rather than the overall controversy over what is the appropriate in fuel a TDI, I can understand that. However, can you see from my perspective why I think a page on TDI fueling controversy should include info about US spec BD in a PD engine? After all, the url *is* /biodiesel_TDI.html, not /SVO_TDI.html Can you see how this might be misleading as to the focus of the page? Hakan said: VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. True enough. VW is pushing really biofuels in Europe as evidenced with this great website: http://www.mobility-and-sustainability.com/ However, in the US press, Bosch has come out against US spec BD, at least for now. Specifically: However Bosch has now put the kibosh on those hopes. Or at least put them on hold until biodiesel can be standardized to a specification satisfactory to Bosch. This means engine warranties, heretofore allowed with certain exceptions for owners using biodiesel, will now generally be disallowed. At least for the newer, cleaner diesel engines with their fine misting sprays and minuscule tolerances. We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use, a Bosch engineer explained. http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,196sid=196article=7253 Moreover, the Bosch engineer goes on to say We are in favor of biodiesel, but not with the fuel as it now exists [in the US]. Given that there *is* some controversy over whether US spec BD is appropriate in a PD TDI, I think blanket statements endorsing BD use in PD engines is inappropriate. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
I thought the PD pressure was more like 30,000 psi, but whatever, it's very high. Although the PD is new to the USA this year, it is not new to Europe. Any European users have any experience with BD in the PD?..Ah, acronyms Perry Jones - Original Message - From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI cblumenthal wrote: I've used b10, b20, b30, b50,b80 all approximate percentages and with zero problems in my 96 passat tdi. If you go to www.tdiclub.com you will find many many tdi owners (older and new vehicles) using b100 for years with no problems. No one is disputing that pre-2004 TDIs run BD just fine. The question Mel asked, as I understood it, was whether the higher injector pressure found in the new unit injector (Pumpe Duse) engines is incompatible with biodiesel usage. The Bosch designed unit injectors found in the PD engines get up into the neighborhood of 20,000 psi. Questions have been raised on whether BD use is appropriate at such pressures. My understanding is that these pressures are much much higher than either the old distributor pump or common rail designs used in other models. My original point remains unchanged; do not assume that experience with pre2004 TDIs and BD use can be extrapolated to new PD engines. This is not to say that they won't be fine, but the history just isn't there...yet. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Hakan, I think it must be as you say. I do not have your range of technical knowledge on this subject. I tried to 'attach' a document re my own testing with other partners on a technology which can treat all fossil fuels to permit them to burn more efficiently. This stuff really excites me, and I am trying to find out if it can similarly work with bio-fuels. I'll try to attach here also. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: 27 September 2004 14:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Don, I suspect that the B2-B5 alternative has nothing really to do with going biofuel. Logically it only have any meaning for the automotive industry as a preparation on going ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel), where it serves as an excellent and necessary lubricant. Since the US industry does not have the same advanced diesel engines as the Europeans, it would help them in the all so important truck business. Anything between B20 and B100 make some sense, but B2-B5 only for lubricant in ULSD. Hakan At 02:29 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: Don, On the specs. I have available now (for Lupo 3L) it is 100% RME, but recall that it is the same for other models. In continental Europe (Germany, France , Austria, etc.) the common mix at the pump is B20, so B5 does not make any sense at all. UK is late in implementation and maybe you are confused with EU directives which talks about minimum B5 blend within a couple of years. I do not now level, how and where UK will start the implementation. B5 does not make any sense for continental Europe, but I think that BP have some influence in UK, as they had on the participation in the Iraq war. LOL Hakan == Hi Hakan, The state of Minnesota has a relatively new 2% (B2) requirement for biodiesel. This mandate is the first in the USA. Its a good way to allow the startup operations for biodiesel production plants. They are building one now in southwest MN. The transportation companies did not like the mandate. It was supposed to raised the cost of diesel about 0.03 USD. I believe the railroad industry and internal mining operations (taconite iron) are exempt. I thought it sounded a little funny (B2), but it is better than nothing and it is a beginning. We also have to remember that outdoor temperatures can drop to -37.7 degrees Celsius (-36 F.) during the winter months. http://www.newrules.org/agri/biodieselmn.html Ron B. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This e-mail is for the intended recipient only. If an addressing, transmission or other error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or reply to this email. This e-mail may be monitored, read, recorded and retained by Portsmouth City Council. E-mail monitoring/blocking software may be used. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Hello All, This article might shed some light on new cars comming off the line with a biodiesel blend in the fuel tanks. http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65054,00 .html Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peggy Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI The speaker at the biodiesel lecture at the TX Green Energy Roundup on Friday said that the new 2005 biodiesel autos (and I think he said VW's) are coming off the line from the manufacturer with a blended biodiesel product in their engines. Can't blame a customer for the manufacturer's choice. It sets the precedent. Someone might ant to substantiate this comment. Peggy Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh Furthermore, I believe that any commercial producer of BD should cover any fuel related failures. The same goes for petrol diesel. If the filter clogs, that is never covered under warrenty. It's known as routine maintenance. I recently installed a CAT fuel filter, which the big rigs use in my VW for extra its filtering capacity at 2 microns. Your PD needs plenty of flow, which the CAT delivers. Again, check out the tdiclub.com, if you would like more info. Thanks, Todd -- -- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: 27. september 2004 14:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Hello Niels Please let me contribute to the SVO PDI/TDI discussion (PDI=Pumpe Dse=Unit Injection) - Using SVO in TDI«s and PDI«s it not an issue when using proper conversion technology and proper SVO fuel quality, meeting the limits specified e.g. in the German RK standard. Yes, I'd agree. But the people claiming there's no problem seldom if ever talk about SVO fuel quality. We do: It's vital to pay close attention to the quality and condition of the oil -- much more critical with an SVO system than if you're going to convert the oil into biodiesel. So do you, and Elsbett, BioCar, Neoteric. It«s quit obvious that fuel quality is essential for all fuels, incl. SVO, Biodiesel, fossil diesel etc.. Proper conversion included injectors, glow plugs, timing and other fuel settings. Those same people generally say all you have to do is heat it. Few if any of those kits seem to have anything to do with injectors, glow plugs, timing and fuel settings, they concentrate on fuel-switching from one tank to the other and pre-heating, and that's it. With any old WVO. You can refer to whom you want, but I«m advocating for using kits including the mentioned parts, and we are quit successful to convince people in Denmark to use such kits. Nobody can stop people writing what ever on the Internet, but you can chose what you want to read and what you want to believe. We just converted 12 cars last weekend during a DIY workshop. The happiest ãconverterä was a guy who tried to follow the internet receipt trying 3 different injector types without success. Finally he decided to join our DIY workshop, and succeeded with a DIY kit. And we succeeded because one important aim of these workshops is to give those who really want to go SVO, access to tested and approved technology. Of course the future perspective is that the engine manufactures will make the engines SVO ready from the factory. Yes! And if Elsbett could do that 30 years ago, with such an advanced engine that it still hasn't been overtaken, then one has to wonder just what the problem is. One important problem in this connection is that Money Make«s the World Going Round. Why should the car manufactures make SVO cars if they can sell all the fossil diesel cars that they want. Elsbett had interested buyers for their engine concept, but the old Ludwig Elsbett made as a condition that the buyers should produce the engine, and not just leave the concept in a drawer. The interested buyer didn«t want to meet that condition. Now 30 years has passed, so of course that engine is no more up to present standard for engines, injection systems etc. - See some SVO 1-tank cars here. We made 65 so fare. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/converted_cars_examples.htm - We never had any problems with injection pumps or injectors due to high viscosity cold SVO. The conversion includes overpressure protection of the injection pumps if there's a risk (typically on rotary pumps on pre chamber engines) - Personally I have driven my IDI car more than 5 years always on 100% SVO, never diesel or other additives. It never caused any kind of problem. Our winters offers temperatures down to minus 10-15¡C. - We have converted several TDI«s and one PDI with SVO 1-tank system + heater(boiler) for the winter start. It works absolutely fine. The PDI is a LUPO 3L 1.2, and runs on Faroe Island for 1¸ year now. They have about 5-10¡C ambient temperature around the year. Some of the TDI«s have passed 2 years and about 100.000km. We have imported one TDI from Germany which had passed 330.000km on SVO with 1-tank system. Good! These high mileages are what will tip the balance, once there's enough of them. - In winter time the TDI starts direct on SVO even without preheating with the boiler, but to reduce SVO pollution of the lubrication oil, the boiler should preheat at temperatures below 5-10¡C. So if you«ve got an emergency situation, you can startgo without preheating, but don«t do it each time. - 2 weeks ago I tried the new VW Touran 2.0 PDI(4 valves/cyl) with 1-tank system. It was very very convincing, both the start and driving. The German company who converted it claims that the make the type emission approval for all there conversions, which for this car is EURO4. Which company is that, if you don't mind my asking? I don«t mind, but my principle is not to promote any companies, but the SVO concept. Nevertheless, the company name is VWP established about 12 years ago by 3 guys coming from Elsbett. They have webpage http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de/. The information about the emission test type approval was given on a conference ãAlternative Mobilityä in Germany, and the mentioned car was leading a Solar
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Some years ago BOSCH Denmark sent out a letter and a poster to the BOSCH workshops, warning against all kinds of Alternative fuel(= non-fossil-fuels), including RME and FAME, which was specifically mentioned. They refused to cover any damages coursed by non-appropriate fuels, and forwarded the warranty question to the car manufactory, if they accepted Biodiesel, such as VW. I suppose that BOSCH Denmark just forward the message from the German headquarter. Last year in June Spiegel Online published an article No more release for Biodiesel, informing that VW had stopped the biodiesel release for the new Touran, I suppose the 2.0 PDI 4 valve/cyl engine. The reason was not the fuel it self, but fuel quality problems. http://www.spiegel.de/auto/werkstatt/0,1518,254679,00.html Niels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Hayes Sent: 27. september 2004 15:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI Keith Addison wrote: I see you still haven't looked at the page I referred to, which you said needed updating (which it doesn't), so I referred you to it again Actually, I have read it and in fact have referred others to it on a regular basis. I am quite aware that it refers to SVO and not BD. However, *you* referred Mel to it when his original question dealt with biodiesel, not SVO. You said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. I disagree, and feel that the page should be updated to include the fact that US spec BD may not be appropriate in a PD TDI. If you feel that particular page is focused on SVO specifically rather than the overall controversy over what is the appropriate in fuel a TDI, I can understand that. However, can you see from my perspective why I think a page on TDI fueling controversy should include info about US spec BD in a PD engine? After all, the url *is* /biodiesel_TDI.html, not /SVO_TDI.html Can you see how this might be misleading as to the focus of the page? Hakan said: VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. True enough. VW is pushing really biofuels in Europe as evidenced with this great website: http://www.mobility-and-sustainability.com/ However, in the US press, Bosch has come out against US spec BD, at least for now. Specifically: However Bosch has now put the kibosh on those hopes. Or at least put them on hold until biodiesel can be standardized to a specification satisfactory to Bosch. This means engine warranties, heretofore allowed with certain exceptions for owners using biodiesel, will now generally be disallowed. At least for the newer, cleaner diesel engines with their fine misting sprays and minuscule tolerances. We have found black mold in the injectors and other parts of the system from biodiesel use, a Bosch engineer explained. http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,196sid=196article=7253 Moreover, the Bosch engineer goes on to say We are in favor of biodiesel, but not with the fuel as it now exists [in the US]. Given that there *is* some controversy over whether US spec BD is appropriate in a PD TDI, I think blanket statements endorsing BD use in PD engines is inappropriate. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
I wasn't being at all combative, but it seems you are. snip Hm. I see these excuses so often, I'm not convinced. Scientists are prejudiced against SVO for some reason, the press has an anti-environment agenda and so on. Yes, I know you didn't say that, but others do. And they're generally very bad at promoting SVO, biodieselers are much better. I repeat, that I have seen many studies ignoring fundamental requirements to engine conversion and fuel quality. The press just goes for a story, and can not see that. In previous discussions at the vegoil-diesel list, SVO'ers were clueless about how to deal with the press. Biodiesellers regularly get good press coverage (better than the big companies' expensive PR agencies do, and they admit it), even front-page coverage. But the SVO people, mainly in Britain on that occasion, were submitting Oped pieces to the quality press and getting all hurt when it didn't happen. I told them just how to go about it, so then they wanted me to do it because I'm the best qualified as I'm a journalist, though it's not my issue and I'm in Japan. Martin Steele, for one example (MartinUK), has got great press publicity for biodiesel in the UK, he's not a journalist, he's a window-cleaner. Another example is a study from the Swedish Chalmers University, which claimed that emission from SVO AND Biodiesel was 10 time more carcinogenic than from fossil diesel. The press took it. And VOLVO UK took it, using it for promoting there Natural Gas cars. The truth was that the researchers never used an engine for the emission test but an oven. Finally the University followed by VOLVO both retracted. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/press/pressr_rapeseed_18012001.htm I think that mainly happened here on this list. Everybody blamed Reuters, but it was Associate Professor Jim Olsson of the Department of Physical Chemistry at Sweden's Chalmers University of Technology who was to blame. Terry de Winne fought that battle (Terry UK), along with Werner Krbitz of the Austrian Biofuels Institute, and Terry used the Biofuel list as a base, because we were right on top of it straight away and took it seriously. He corresponded with both Olsson and Volvo, and forced Volvo to publish a retraction. I think it was also largely Terry's work that persuaded Chalmers Vice President Johan Carlsten to publish a retraction on 23 February 2001: http://www.chalmers.se/Nyheter/2001/vecka08/rapsolja.html Rapeseed oil as fuel Your Folkecenter also published a critical piece: http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/pressr_rapeseed_18012001.htm Thesis misused in Swedish debate about rape seed oil as a fuel for engines But it's no longer at your website, though I have a copy of it. Anyway it's all in the list archives if you're interested, along with subsequent dicussions of the infamous Swedish Frying Pan study. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ snip - SVO appears now in the European Biofuel Directive on the list of accepted Biofuels. It was not an Oops mistake by the officials in the EU Commission. It was very hard work to get it there, and it was only possible because there exist so many good working practical examples, and some relative limited documentation. Good work! I'm glad there were enough good examples to get that done, but really it's still just a fringe, a small minority. It'll take time. I agree the object is to put pressure on the manufacturers, but not by sweeping problems under the carpet and pretending they don't exist, which some SVO people have tended to do. There«s no problems, only challenges, and they should not stay under the carpet. Problems, challenges, call them what you like, but SVO promoters who deny them are only creating more problems. I don«t say it«s easy, but it«s definitely possible, and that's my point and reason to work for SVO. Let people who know about SVO work with that, and let others who don«t know about it and who only see problems work with something else. Don«t invent problems. I think you're inventing people who're inventing problems, if you think that's what I'm doing. Anyway, Niels, if you like, I can add this very useful comment from you to that TDI controversy page. It could sure use something on the pro side, I've been waiting for it, but there's been very little that's had any substance, if anything. I don't want to tell Adam Khan his study is useless though. Did you read the whole report? No, I didn«t read it, but from the title Research into Biodiesel Kinetics and Catalyst Development it«s obvious that Con SVO arguments helps to justify the study. That might be less obvious if you had read it, and with less of an SVO bias. It«s probably very useful if you are interested promoting biodiesel, He's a reearcher, not a promoter. but from the Con SVO arguments you quote from the study, I don«t expect to find any useful information about SVO as fuel. That much was useful, and so is
Attachments - was RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
This is in the List rules, as such, referred to in the Welcome message you received when you joined the list: Virus-free -- As an essential anti-virus measure the list does not accept attachments. All attachments are automatically removed before messages are distributed to the members. It is not possible to receive a virus from the Biofuel list. Sorry, but that's the way it is. The rules are here, by the way: http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20040906/05.html [Biofuel] List rules Best wishes Keith Addison List owner Hakan, I think it must be as you say. I do not have your range of technical knowledge on this subject. I tried to 'attach' a document re my own testing with other partners on a technology which can treat all fossil fuels to permit them to burn more efficiently. This stuff really excites me, and I am trying to find out if it can similarly work with bio-fuels. I'll try to attach here also. Don Johnston Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 023 9283 4247 snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Keith Addison wrote: I see you still haven't looked at the page I referred to, which you said needed updating (which it doesn't), so I referred you to it again Actually, I have read it and in fact have referred others to it on a regular basis. I am quite aware that it refers to SVO and not BD. However, *you* referred Mel to it when his original question dealt with biodiesel, not SVO. You said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. You're mixing up two emails. I disagree, and feel that the page should be updated to include the fact that US spec BD may not be appropriate in a PD TDI. Why would anyone want to put information about biodiesel on a page entirely about SVO? The reason I referred Mel to the page was that it wasn't clear whether he was referring to SVO or biodiesel, and that was obvious enough. What isn't at all obvious, at least to me, is why you've answered a question I didn't ask but not the one I did ask, and in fact snipped it out. So I'll unsnip it back in again. You said this: The Bosch designed unit injectors found in the PD engines get up into the neighborhood of 20,000 psi. Questions have been raised on whether BD use is appropriate at such pressures. My understanding is that these pressures are much much higher than either the old distributor pump or common rail designs used in other models. My original point remains unchanged; do not assume that experience with pre2004 TDIs and BD use can be extrapolated to new PD engines. This is not to say that they won't be fine, but the history just isn't there...yet. jh This was my reply: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Please note, if nothing else, that it's about SVO. Anyway, this is one thing you'd have found there: ... Siemens, Delphi and Bosch all are ramping production of sophisticated new injectors that can handle today's sky-high fuel pressure, and inject infinitesimal fuel droplets so quickly that upcoming diesels may at times employ as many as five distinct injections for each cylinder's combustion 'event.' ... the most promising advantage of common-rail technology is the ability to deliver extremely high fuel pressures on the order of 23,000 psi (1,600 bar) or more. This type of pressure means that in microseconds, astonishingly tiny fuel droplets can be injected; these droplets more effectively mix with the induction air, boosting power production and reducing emissions. Only Volkswagen AG, Europe's diesel volume-sales leader, has resisted the common-rail development path, instead relying on its unique 'unit injector' system that combines each injector with an integral fuel pump, energized by its own lobe on the camshaft. This system develops pressures of up to 29,300 psi (2,020 bar)... -- From Super Diesels!, Ward's Auto World, September 1, 2001 http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle.asp?magazineid=50releaseid =8418magazinearticleid=118355siteid=26 23,000 psi, 29,300 psi... Note the date - 2001. If you think a mere 20,000 psi is all-new for 2004, then you couldn't have read the page, could you, as it refers quite prominently to much higher pressures in 2001. If you feel that particular page is focused on SVO specifically rather than the overall controversy over what is the appropriate in fuel a TDI, I can understand that. It's not that I feel that way, it is that way. That's why it's called The TDI-SVO controversy and not the TDI-appropriate fuel controversy, and also why the only way to reach it is via the main SVO page (and the Site map). However, can you see from my perspective why I think a page on TDI fueling controversy should include info about US spec BD in a PD engine? That would be a different page. We wouldn't do such a page. The JtF website had visitors from 187 countries last month, not just the US. To claim that a page called The TDI-SVO controversy needs updating because it lacks information on US spec biodiesel in a PD engine is preposterous, it has nothing to do with running a TDI on Straight Vegetable Oil. After all, the url *is* /biodiesel_TDI.html, not /SVO_TDI.html Can you see how this might be misleading as to the focus of the page? Oh come off it John! You're clutching at straws. SVO is dealt with in the Biodiesel section, as a sub-set. There isn't a separate SVO section, nor will there be. That TDI page isn't even accessible directly from the Biodiesel section, only from the main SVO page. It's a url, the page has a Title, which appears at the top of the browser window, far outweighing whatever it may say obscurely in the url code, the title is The TDI-SVO controversy, and there's a big red headline right at the top saying the same thing. If you want to think that's misleading, well, suit yourself. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
While not directly on point, you should be aware that VW has made a very substantial investment in the research and development of biodiesel. Perry Jones - Original Message - From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI m gildow wrote: Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Hi Mel. The page Keith refered you to probably needs to be updated. As Keith said, in an 2003 TDI or earlier, biodiesel is absolutely fine. However, with regard to the new Pumpe Duse (PD) injection found in the 2004 TDIs, the jury is still out on whether BD is a good idea. It may be fine, but at this point, it simply does not have the track record of the earlier engines. You will find a lot of heated debate on this topic from both sides over at tdiclub.com. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Mel, VW is certifying all their new diesel engines for use with RME (Rape based biodiesel) in Europe. Your chat pages are wrong, if you want to belive the VW engine specifications in Europe. Hakan At 01:43 AM 9/19/2004, you wrote: After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Hi Mel. The page Keith refered you to probably needs to be updated. As Keith said, in an 2003 TDI or earlier, biodiesel is absolutely fine. However, with regard to the new Pumpe Duse (PD) injection found in the 2004 TDIs, the jury is still out on whether BD is a good idea. It may be fine, but at this point, it simply does not have the track record of the earlier engines. You will find a lot of heated debate on this topic from both sides over at tdiclub.com. You will find lots of definative declarations for both sides, when the truth is somewhere in between. For example, this website http://www.channel4.com/4car/buying-guide/faq/biofuels/biofuels-7.html claims that all Audis and VWs, including the PD engines, are B100 compatible. Yet, on the next page, they refer to biodiesel having the proper octane. If they can't tell octane from cetane, I'm not sure I'd trust their other statements. In any case, VWoA does not warranty any fuel issues, biodiesel or petrodiesel. If you got a bad tank of petrodiesel that ruined your injector pump, VW wouldn't cover that either. In my case, my dealership says BD is fine in my 03 Jetta but my father in law was explicitly warned not to put BD into his new 04 Passat. So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
m gildow wrote: Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Hi Mel. The page Keith refered you to probably needs to be updated. As Keith said, in an 2003 TDI or earlier, biodiesel is absolutely fine. It does not need to be updated. Did you look at it? It's about TDIs and SVO, not TDIs and biodiesel. I said: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy It will apply even more so to the PD injection pump and SVO/WVO. Best Keith However, with regard to the new Pumpe Duse (PD) injection found in the 2004 TDIs, the jury is still out on whether BD is a good idea. It may be fine, but at this point, it simply does not have the track record of the earlier engines. You will find a lot of heated debate on this topic from both sides over at tdiclub.com. You will find lots of definative declarations for both sides, when the truth is somewhere in between. For example, this website http://www.channel4.com/4car/buying-guide/faq/biofuels/biofuels-7.html claims that all Audis and VWs, including the PD engines, are B100 compatible. Yet, on the next page, they refer to biodiesel having the proper octane. If they can't tell octane from cetane, I'm not sure I'd trust their other statements. In any case, VWoA does not warranty any fuel issues, biodiesel or petrodiesel. If you got a bad tank of petrodiesel that ruined your injector pump, VW wouldn't cover that either. In my case, my dealership says BD is fine in my 03 Jetta but my father in law was explicitly warned not to put BD into his new 04 Passat. So at the end of the day, the choice is yours. If you choose to run BD in a PD TDI, more power to you. Just be aware that if you have an injector failure down the road, your dealership *may* blame the BD and refuse to cover it. Cheers. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
- Original Message - From: m gildow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:43 PM Subject: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? What does the instruction booklet say? If the factory forbids the use of bio, stick with it. I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Well, Mel, ( I just had to do that) from what is my understanding ALL new model european cars are BD friendly since the 80's. I could be a little off on the actual dates but it is a sure thing for recent models, from the info posted here in the past. L. Not true. Opel in his new DI engines forbidds use of bio in any form. New VW models do not tolerate biodiesel also (any form, not even B5) in some engines. We have had a LC Toyota (100 series) with a totally broken IP after only 6.000 km on neat bio (costly repair, 12.000 US). We've been in the EU for a very short time (meaning biofuels are legal now in Slovenija) and have had serious damage on engines. I could go on and on: BMW - no good OBD shuts the engine down, Peugeot - will stop engine, beacuse antiPM chemical injected in the exhaust is not compatible with neat bio, Mercedes - OBD gets all fuzzy, can't recognize the neat bio as a fuel ... I recently learned thet people in Germany, though having neat bio at quite a lot of fuel stations, actually don't drive on it and strongly recommend against. Except for farmers and bus fleets owned by cities, very few people drive on bio. VW alone reported about 20M? spent in repairs on warranted VW cars in 2003 for biodiesel usage related damages. Sooo: not all cars come biodiesel ready. Some need to be ordered biodiesel compliant (BMW, Merc, ...) some don't even have this option. Specially suited are older TDIs, most prechamber engines (modification), most new heavy machinery diesels (some need the obvious hoses and gasket change, CAT for example) and most newer gensets. I'm not having good experiences with my car, and I have certified DIN compliant fuel. And, it's not only the gaskets on the pump shaft, if you're wondering. The whole rotor assembly needed to be renewed, it wasn't very expensive, but this means the fuel is not safe for my car in its neat form. Cheers Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
There is no issue in 2000 + models running b100. run 50% kero in sub zero weather. = = = Original message = = = Other than probably violating some warranty clause, I can~t see any reason. Of course the dealer will tell you all kinds of reasons to not use it. However most if not all BioFuel suppliers don~t suggest running B100 or 100% BioDiesel but using B20 or B50 Which is a mixture of regular diesel and BioDiesel. And since the BioDiesel you buy is a little more pricey than the dead dinosaur diesel, it helps alleviate the pump price shock. I think it's not nearly as hard on an engine as regular diesel. The one caveat is cold weather. Be careful and make sure you mix it with weatherized winter diesel All my engines are 10 to 20 years old and I WISH I could get a newer car, but am holding out for the diesel Jeep Liberties that will be for sale here in the US this fall as 2005 models. They have been selling them in Central America a few years. I drove one in Belize a few months ago and they get about 35 mpg in town and 45 mpg on the highway. !! NICE !! Mel Riser If there is more than one mel we have to sign longer names now :) -Original Message- From: m gildow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software. Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks for clearing that up. The other info that I got was probably refering to SVO, but wasn't clear. The info put out was refering to the different pressure in the newer PD fuel injection pump, but even that information wasn't particularly clear. Differences in what the actual pressure is and if it has even changed in the last few years. Thanks again, Mel --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Here's a whole archives thread about it, there's plenty more in the archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/22272/1/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
- Original Message - From: m gildow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:43 PM Subject: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Well, Mel, ( I just had to do that) from what is my understanding ALL new model european cars are BD friendly since the 80's. I could be a little off on the actual dates but it is a sure thing for recent models, from the info posted here in the past. L. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Other than probably violating some warranty clause, I cant see any reason. Of course the dealer will tell you all kinds of reasons to not use it. However most if not all BioFuel suppliers dont suggest running B100 or 100% BioDiesel but using B20 or B50 Which is a mixture of regular diesel and BioDiesel. And since the BioDiesel you buy is a little more pricey than the dead dinosaur diesel, it helps alleviate the pump price shock. I think it's not nearly as hard on an engine as regular diesel. The one caveat is cold weather. Be careful and make sure you mix it with weatherized winter diesel All my engines are 10 to 20 years old and I WISH I could get a newer car, but am holding out for the diesel Jeep Liberties that will be for sale here in the US this fall as 2005 models. They have been selling them in Central America a few years. I drove one in Belize a few months ago and they get about 35 mpg in town and 45 mpg on the highway. !! NICE !! Mel Riser If there is more than one mel we have to sign longer names now :) -Original Message- From: m gildow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI After having a VW Pickup and becoming interested in Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] 2004 VW Jetta TDI
Biodiesel as a fuel I have bought a new 2004 VW Jetta TDI. I have read several postings from various chat pages that the new TDIs shouldn't run Biodiesel. Biodiesel's no problem, SVO/WVO is something of a controversy. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Here's a whole archives thread about it, there's plenty more in the archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/22272/1/ Does anyone have any experience with the new TDIs? I would like to start using Biodiesel in it either as an addative or straight, but don't want to cause any problems. VW covers biodiesel use in Europe but not in US! They don't like soy, neither does the Euro biodiesel standard, EN 14214. More on this here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 Best wishes Keith Thanks for any help or information. Mel ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
