Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hallo Georg, I guess your demands are met by the proposal in current state. I'd say, now only people that would oppose introduction of "highway=steps" , because we can map hw=path+steps=yes can oppose "highway=scramble", not the least, due to your nagging :) What do you think? Convenience link

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear all, Hungerburg wrote Mon Sep 26 2022 22:19:03 GMT+0200 Nearly two weeks passed since the RfC started. Quite some changes have happened. I’d like to invite a second reading, to help weed out remaining problems. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=scramble "use

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Nearly two weeks passed since the RfC started. Quite some changes have happened. I’d like to invite a second reading, to help weed out remaining problems. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=scramble Please comment in the medium of your choice. Thank you in advance

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Thank you Alan for the insightful comment. The scrambles I have in mind require little to no generalization step. This is the concept that I was missing to understand some previous comments. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Fri, 23 Sept 2022, 20:58 Asa Hundert, wrote: > Thank you Volker for linking cai_scale. During my research on the > subject, I learned, that the SAC itself is using its scales quite like > the CAI, as a means to note hikers about requirements of what in OSM > are called "routes", something,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Thank you Volker for linking cai_scale. During my research on the subject, I learned, that the SAC itself is using its scales quite like the CAI, as a means to note hikers about requirements of what in OSM are called "routes", something, which starts at a POI and has a POI as its goal, where the

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Sep 21, 2022, at 10:23 AM, Adam Franco wrote: > For anyone who isn't follow all 3 threads, this topic is being discussed in: > > * OSM Community: RFC: Highway=Mountaineering > * OSM Community: RfC: Highway=Scramble > * [Tagging]: Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble > > While the

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Preliminary remark: I have walked and hiked, done a couple of via ferrata, but so far only heard of scrambled eggs. My only source is the Wikipedia article on "scrambling". I have detected that in fact I have done some scrambles. Two of them close by. I went back to the tagging and they are

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

For anyone who isn't follow all 3 threads, this topic is being discussed in: * OSM Community: RFC: Highway=Mountaineering * OSM Community: RfC: Highway=Scramble

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hi Yves, > "Please bear in mind that quite a lot of them can be re-tagged > automatically" Can you give a single example of similar automatic re-tagging in the past ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Automated_edits_log lists plenty, e.g.

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

"Please bear in mind that quite a lot of them can be re-tagged automatically" Can you give a single example of similar automatic re-tagging in the past ? Yves___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear all, martianfreeloader wrote Tue Sep 20 2022 20:59:07 GMT+0200 But yes, you're totally right, it will still be a considerable task to > re-tag all the 2k via ferratas, 3k climbing routes and ~20k difficult > hikes. Please bear in mind that quite a lot of them can be re-tagged

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Tens of thousand in remote areas, where contributors are scarce, just to change sac_scale=demanding_mountain_hiking to highway=demanding_mountain_hiking_alias, I don't see this going to get a lot of support. I'm also afraid that would put a lot of strain on a relatively small community of

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Introducing a new highway value to replace rather common existing values can only succeed if the community agrees AND significant data users and renderers confirm they can and will handle it, AND local communities commit to implement it massively. And that is, assuming consensus is reached and

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Nope, didn't forget about that. My point was rather that in case the community decides the discussed primary-tag distinction is favourable, it would be the least effort for us is to keep highway=path for the vast majority of ways (12 million) instead of changing them all to highway=easy_path

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Le 20 septembre 2022 19:04:59 GMT+02:00, martianfreeloader a écrit : > >How about this: > >- keep highway=path for everything that can be walked by normal people (this >means we don't need to re-tag millions of ways) >- introduce a new tag highway=demanding path for everything else. > I

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hi Georg, I mostly agree, except in one point: I totally did have steep mountainous paths in mind in the definition of highway=path, as long as regular people can walk them. I think your highway=demanding_path tag instead of highway=scramble is a great idea! How about this: - keep

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear all, Peter wrote Tue Sep 20 2022 14:02:24 GMT+0200 This would mean that there is a new primary tag `highway=scramble` which makes some currently existing primary tags obsolete: 1) `highway=via_ferrata` gets replaced by `highway=scramble + scramble=via_ferrata` 2) `climbing=route` gets

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear all, martianfreeloader, wrote Tue Sep 20 2022 10:52:06 GMT+0200 I think if something is tagged highway=path then data consumers should be able to expect that regular people can walk on it without having to look at an ever growing zoo of secondary tags. > ... I think a new generic highway=

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 20 sep. 2022 om 13:49 heeft martianfreeloader > het volgende geschreven: > > This would mean that there is a new primary tag `highway=scramble` which > makes some currently existing primary tags obsolete: > 1) `highway=via_ferrata` gets replaced by `highway=scramble

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Yes, what I have in mind is a new primary tag: `highway=scramble` with secondary tags like `scramble=via_ferrata` `scramble=climbing` `scramble=alpine_hiking` etc. Tertiary tags would be: `via_ferrate_scale=*` `climbing:grade:uiaa=*` `sac_scale=*` The secondary tags would be orthogonal. In

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

sent from a phone > On 20 Sep 2022, at 10:56, martianfreeloader > wrote: > > This would encompass > - via ferratas > - demanding or dangerous hikes > - climbing routes > - anything else? > > To me, highway=scramble seems a good solution for this, but I'm not a native > English speaker, so

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I think if something is tagged highway=path then data consumers should be able to expect that regular people can walk on it without having to look at an ever growing zoo of secondary tags. Data consumers, like all of us, have limited capacity. We make their lives much easier if primary tags

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear all, Asa wrote Sat Sep 17 2022 14:11:45 GMT+0200 In one of the Snowdon photos, a woman is using hands for balance. I just observed that for Snowdon, the link https://www.walkupsnowdon.co.uk/snowdonia-walks/crib-goch/ was replaced by

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hello Georg, yes, Ueli Steck certainly is the wrong person, to grade anything openstreetmap trails. I was a bit surprised, that openstreetmap does not have a path up Eiger. If so, I'd propose "highway=mountaineering" for it, just like the one up Mönch, which now is T6 in fine-print, while

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear Peter and all others, Peter wrote Thu Sep 15 2022 23:37:04 GMT+0200 Wouldn't scramble=yes with highway=path do the trick? Hurts nobody, and carries the exact information you want. IMHO as clear as friendly "no"  In current state, scramble has not an sufficiently clear definition to

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear Peter and all others, I gained the impression you do not find consent just because you are using different definitions for the same thing: SAC T4-T6.  Peter wrote Thu Sep 15 2022 17:30:25 GMT+0200 Peter Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear Asa and others, Asa wrote Thu Sep 15 2022 23:38:40 GMT+0200 Imo, scramble would not only include via ferrata. Unlike what I wrote yesterday, there is indeed some overlap of scramble and via ferrata. There are via ferratas, that can be hiked/scrambled without gear: from what I see,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Dear martianfreeloader, you wrote Thu Sep 15 2022 00:27:11 GMT+0200 I am a hiker and a climber, but I made experiences similar to Peter's on more than one occasion. I have been led along ways by osmand which were mapped as highway=path; obviously by other climbers. They were definitely not

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Am Fr., 16. Sept. 2022 um 00:24 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny : > > yeah, looks like a YDS class 2, or `sac_scale=hiking`. Maybe > `mountain_hiking` if that talus is unstable, because then you start to need > some technique. I know some runners who would do that barefoot, but I think > they're nuts.

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 6:12 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > here is an example for a mountain situation where you should probably have > the right shoes, and someone in sneakers of flip flops, or pushing (well, > carrying at this point) a baby stroller would have a hard time, but it > wouldn’t

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

here is an example for a mountain situation where you should probably have the right shoes, and someone in sneakers of flip flops, or pushing (well, carrying at this point) a baby stroller would have a hard time, but it wouldn’t qualify for scramble or via ferrata:

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

sent from a phone > On 15 Sep 2022, at 19:57, Peter Elderson wrote: > > To map a specific type of path, say, a scramble, none of the sac_scale values > specifically indicates that it is in fact there. > If you try rendering hand-and-foot climbs for hikers, comparable to how you > would

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:30 Uhr schrieb martianfreeloader : > > Imo, scramble would not only include via ferrata. Unlike what I wrote yesterday, there is indeed some overlap of scramble and via ferrata. There are via ferratas, that can be hiked/scrambled without gear: Where the tourism office

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Wouldn't scramble=yes with highway=path do the trick? Hurts nobody, and carries the exact information you want. Peter Elderson > Op 15 sep. 2022 om 23:26 heeft Asa Hundert het > volgende geschreven: > > Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:09 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson > : >> >> I like this

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:09 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson : > > I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to the actual > scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to the > scramble part. Renderers can then show the actual scramble sections. Well,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 21:15 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny : > I don't usually bother breaking up a way by scale if there are no > intersections or PoI's along it. There may be flat spots in among the > scrambles, and I generally don't bother trying to distinguish them. In my opinion, this is

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 2:53 PM Janko Mihelić wrote: > čet, 15. ruj 2022. 19:57 Peter Elderson je napisao: > >> I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, >> just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. >> > > That isn't true. If you tag a relation with

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

A sacscale isn't a thing, it's an assigned category. The same category includes different situations, none of which is necessarily actually present, you only know that at least one is there but not which one. So, if a path has a sac_scale which may or may not include a scramble section

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

čet, 15. ruj 2022. 19:57 Peter Elderson je napisao: > I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, > just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. > That isn't true. If you tag a relation with sac_scale, then it is as you say. But if you tag a way with

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 12:10 PM Sarah Hoffmann via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > To get this mess sorted out we should probably start with the discussion > 'what is a hishway=path'. The current definition in the wiki is > not helpful in any way. It basically says that anything

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. To map a specific type of path, say, a scramble, none of the sac_scale values specifically indicates that it is in fact there. If you try rendering hand-and-foot climbs

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Peter, the sac_scale definition on the wiki is quite thorough. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Then you still cannot indicate "this is a scramble section", only that it may be a scramble section OR something else making the section fall into that sac category. So I think highway=scramble does add information, enabling data users to search, select, deselect, process and present the feature

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 08:16:08AM -0700, Tod Fitch wrote: > Interpreting OSM tags to decide if a way is a hiking trail is a hot mess. In > my hiking map rendering I look at over a dozen tags, individually and in > combination, to decide if a way is a hiking trail or not. Obviously this is >

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

sent from a phone > On 15 Sep 2022, at 17:34, Peter Elderson wrote: > > If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the > sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct? it depends how fine grained you tag sac_scale, on a hiking route it only tells you the most difficult

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

So, a selection of sac_scale values may or may not include scramble sections, beside other posible obstacles/hazards/challenges. If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct? Op do 15 sep. 2022 om 15:23 schreef Janko Mihelić > čet,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Le 15 septembre 2022 15:19:58 GMT+02:00, "Janko Mihelić" a écrit : >čet, 15. ruj 2022. u 14:52 Peter Elderson napisao je: > >> Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values >> would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going >> up or down

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

čet, 15. ruj 2022. u 14:52 Peter Elderson napisao je: > Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values > would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going > up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, > average hiker

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, average hiker without climbing skills and without special gear other then a

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

We are having this discussion despite we already have the necessary tags to describe all relevant aspects, only because some map data consumers do not take them into account. And these tag are not only used, they are completely established (sac scale, trail visibility, hazard, etc.). There will

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hello, Le 15.09.22 à 00:27, martianfreeloader a écrit : don't want to die On the basis of which criteria will you set the limit? for some people, put your shoe on a rock or touch it seems the limit and you seem to be saying that it is no longer a highway=path for you in these cases all

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

compute without the need to explicitly map it. Alberto -Original Message- From: Peter Elderson Sent: 15 September 2022 00:04 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble I would probably apply it to the actual scramble

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I am a hiker and a climber, but I made experiences similar to Peter's on more than one occasion. I have been led along ways by osmand which were mapped as highway=path; obviously by other climbers. They were definitely not suitable for folks without climbing experience that want to go on a

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I am a hiker, not a climber. I remember lots of sections I would have avoided if the map had shown them as scrambles. More adventurous people probably would seek them out. I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to the actual scramble sections, though, not including path

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

No idea, what should come first, and what should wait. Personally, I do not see much overlap between a scramble and a via ferrata. A via ferrata is a highway, where people follow a steel cable and enjoy some easy climbing, all the while following a simple process, carabiner click click, so they

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I agree, let's get photos! :-) However, I don't really expect the "grey zone" to be very wide. I guess for the vast majority of cases there won't be disagreement between different mountaineers on whether you need your hands or not. UIAA for example doesn't go into any more detail, either:

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

That is why I ask "How we would deal with such borderline cases?" and ask for some guidelines rather than treating is as a blocker. For example, giving photo examples of mountainous challenging paths which are  not highway=scramble would be helpful. Sep 14, 2022, 23:43 by

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any* property. I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If it were, then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm. (and funnily it reliably does come up with any new proposal) On 14/09/2022

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not need) to use hands, it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion How we would deal with such borderline cases? via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying to get it first Sep 14,

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

This is a bit similar to highway=via_ferrata which is a pretty heavily used tag (2701 objects). https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata Via ferrata needs to have infrastructure like rungs, ladders, bridges and similar. I guess scramble would be similar, but without

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

Hello, Le 14.09.22 à 11:42, Asa Hundert a écrit : It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping balance or be it for pulling up this is in direct conflict with highway=path

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

I was sceptical at first, but after looking at the example, I understand the necessity for hikers. However, I'm not entirely convinced it classifies as a "highway", because there doesn't seem to be a clear way visible; you just try to get from A to B as best you can.--Sent from my Android