pport for good ideas
that are well-stated and agreeable. That actually happens. And when it does,
good for us.
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were talking about railway=station areas, yes?
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es...) in OSM? Two? Four? Six? Eight? It's more than one, for
sure, and that's OK. That's OSM. We have newer data and methods and older
data and methods simultaneously, it does get better. There are seldom magic
bullets, it often takes work for these things to evolve. Yet,
We'd do well to improve these, but I'll agree with
anybody who says "this is difficult work."
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ree that "sharing" such data, as OSM
does, is both valid and valuable (to some) data to map.
After all, we don't want to "hold back people from using (such data) in
creative, productive, or unexpected ways," do we?
Thanks for great feedback here,
SteveA
__
not saying that the data is useless.
> I just think it is better put elsewhere.
I respect and welcome intelligent discussion on which data belong “in or out”
of OSM, and why (or why not). Perhaps this topic is (or is becoming) partly or
mostly exactly that.
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he former, as the former become available.
And not just for tracing / better mapping with newer imagery (as above), but
for “map data consumers” (hikers…) alike (as above).
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e other hand, if it isn't appropriate that we map any of this,
please say so.
Thank you, especially any guidance offered from HOT contributors who have
worked on post-fire humanitarian disasters,
SteveA
California (who has returned home after evacuation, relatively safe now that
this fire is 100% co
eate where substantial "re-mapping" almost
certainly must take place.
Thank you for your quick reply!
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I very much appreciate your reply, Rob; thanks.
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e-population / re-building will NOT take place,
landuse as well).
It's wonderful to be able to ask and receive answers here (thank you),
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, that is interesting and relevant! So, preliminary results are that
such tagging is rare, but it does happen.
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t; (and by contrast to landuse=forestry), we do use the natural=wood
tag for "predominantly wooded areas where there is no active logging" or
logging is known to not be permitted.
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rather than "this is all burned"). A Tasking Manager could be used for this,
but it needs such a polygon to identify the area of interest.
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to account "what already is" in OSM, and if you seem to need to "tag
your way around this" you might be on the wrong track. But if you find a
certain harmony with existing tags, keep working in that direction as it is
often a more correct track, especially for people to understa
along
the coast between Half Moon Bay and Castroville, you see a dozen or more of
these. I think they (or something very much like) are somewhat frequent in
much of rural, populated Earth.
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n mid-to-late October.
Even Wikidata says that shop=farm is sometimes called a "farm stand" by locals.
It's good to eat local, it's good to map local!
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year. Some even advertise that they are free:
it may be that an insurance certificate / card must be provided, rarely, though
sometimes, even this is not required, especially for elderly / senior citizens.
I hope this helps.
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Michael: I suggest you explore our wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:busway .
Best,
SteveA
> On Dec 9, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Michael Tsang wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I'm working with some roads in Central area in Hong Kong. Des Voeux Road
> Central is considered one of the mo
w our map
data have grown, it is how our map data continue to grow.
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ently as far as renderers are concerned. It is easy to
get confused, confusion exists in the map: semantics are blurry in some cases.
This gets better with worldwide consensus, over years. This (how we learn to
best tag and render) is an ongoing long-term OSM process. As a mapper, "tag
accu
mapper thinking about
and trying to solve the same things) about coming up with solutions are good
next steps. Eventually, you might put a proposal together to share with the
wider community (like us, here). This is OSM. It's a process of always
improving. Because OSM can improve, and of
ere. That starts with
clear explanations, good intentions, skilled people and time. This project
does amazing things as we give ourselves these simple ingredients.
SteveA
> On Dec 13, 2020, at 3:26 AM, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> My answer only targets the question in the subject.
>
t-to-British-English word if that's possible)
can open up possibilities for OSM can be the map Anders dreams of. I think it
can. With explanation, some process being followed and some time, it can.
Yes, it IS nice when OSM has distinctions where distinctions are actually
distinctions in the re
seye.
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 09:43, stevea wrote:
> “Names in nature” is an interesting, complex, challenging, yes, even
> strategic topic. I think we can get closer to “better,” here on this list,
> with good, respectful, effective dialog. I look forward to that.
>
> In
We have a spot on the ocean shore, right at (below, at sea level) the entrance
to a state park, in an urban area: it's known locally as "the toilet bowl" and
it's node/3370641047.
It's tagged hazard=yes (best I could do at the time, I suppose; I tagged it in
2015) and "dangerous area, no
times requiring a permit from state Fish
& Game department, sometimes not). Somebody wants to charge me money for a
permit to fish on private land, I'll pass, thanks. I realize that in some
parts of the world, though, "that's how angling happens."
Two whole cents,
SteveA
__
gement-free
questions, offer relevant perspective...), or be gone.
I'd like to see this list extract some value from this discussion (I'm going to
go take a refreshing shower). I hope we can gain some value from the topics
discussed. In my opinion, we should not dwell on the mechanics of what has
happened here, but rather its potential fertility, rather than its actual
futility.
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ke a point to say that any wiki which does that should say so
explicitly.
Good luck in your endeavors!
SteveA
On Dec 21, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Anders Torger wrote:
> I just discovered a strange(?) thing with the "natural=fell" tag which I
> missed at first: on the wiki page the
That is stated even better than I meant to state. Yes, JOSM's relation editor
is "the best there is."
On Dec 15, 2020, at 1:21 AM, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> stevea :
> (Personally, I find JOSM’s relation editor to be one of its most elegant
> features for a data s
+1. Joseph's suggestion is a fine example of "OSM can and does coin new tags
on occasion." Adding a nice boost, there is a suggestion that "similar"
tagging be used as an example of how to define / use / document the new tag.
Great!
On Dec 15, 2020, at 6:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:
>
That's a good question, Brian. On its face, it would be more consistent to
keep this in the place=* key. I like both of your choices, as the concept
doesn't really have a single word to describe "lakes" in the plural as distinct
from the singular (as archipelago does for island). The
To share a local varietal, we have "Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park" and we
have "Henry Cowell Redwoods State Park (Fall Creek Unit)," slightly
non-contiguous but managed together. In the real world (too) this sort of
"grouping between things that belong together or are part of a same thing"
this proposal a starting point." I'm saying "it's at least a good
one, I'll even go 'excellent.'"
I believe the more voices we hear, the better.
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On Dec 21, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Anders Torger wrote:
> Cluttering could be a problem, but is an easy thing to solve with filters. As
> I edit i national parks now I have this huge national park polygon covering
> all work, which renders as a flat although half-transparent color in JOSM.
> It's
On Dec 20, 2020, at 11:39 PM, Anders Torger wrote:
> I'm doing further mapping of Swedish national parks, now in the mountains,
> and I have noted that natural=fell (habitat over tree line) is not rendered.
>
> Looking into why it seems that OSM-Carto implementors want more specific
>
ders
this, or that, or in a particular way. But wishing that renderings are this or
that really isn’t what OSM is about. Entering true-to-the-ground map data is.
Rendering is a bonus you might or might not get to your heart’s desire. If it
is, that’s pretty neat when it happens, isn’t it?
On Dec 21, 2020, at 7:10 AM, Tomas Straupis wrote:
> 2020-12-21, pr, 16:52 Anders Torger rašė:
>> But what to do if the things you want doesn't
>> really fit into what OSM currently is and strives to be...
>
> We are ALL OSM community. If somebody tells you that "I am OSM and
> only A is right"
Fascinating thread, fascinating activities it seems to have given rise to! I
applaud this dialog as I enjoy it.
> On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:22 PM, Ture Pålsson via Tagging
> wrote:
>> 14 dec. 2020 kl. 22:30 skrev Anders Torger :
>>
>> Cool! It would be really nice to see a demo :-)
>
>
te semantic on
them, contradicting their existing meaning in our map.
Maybe I (we) should be discussing this in the proposal's Talk page rather than
in this mail-list, I don't know.
SteveA
> On Dec 13, 2020, at 11:25 AM, ipswichmapper--- via Tagging
> wrote:
>
> https://wiki.openstre
people DO improve
OSM.” Then, the thread started to veer off the road again. Keep it
constructive, people, please!
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ay. Or Ex-Wye-Zed vs.
Ex-Wye-Zee. It's a big world. Lots of long, straight roads, lots of long,
windy roads.
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understanding of how to enter data into OSM and perhaps
see it render on renderer-A or renderer-B, perhaps not).
As I'm not on the board nor do I have any more "pull" (influence) over how the
"higher level" tasks you identify play out in the future, let's subtrac
Anders gets back to me and we continue to hash
out what I hope are understandings, with his permission I'll re-post those
"results" back up here. I HOPED that this wasn't too tedious, thanks for
letting me know that being wordy is (so
reetmap in their connect fitness web
> app, they also have Google and HERE as alternative layers. The vector
> openstreetmap layer is no way showing near what actually is in the current
> database, and there's various artifacts. A huge lake where I live is missing
> alltogether (probably because the polygon is made in some way that vector
> engine can't understand). I think this is just one example what happens with
> the fragmented landscape of OSM map providers and that our own maps are not
> able to fulfill the needs of typical applications. Garmin as being hugely
> popular in Sweden among fitness and outdoor people showing OSM in a rather
> bad way. That's not helping the widespread view here that OSM is becoming
> "obsolete".
Thank you for your opinions.
Anders, we want to help. Let's take bite-size chews here, so we can masticate
and swallow, without choking. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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electricity:source (which introduce at the
same time), I haven't any specific suggestion on a key, tag or namespace, but I
think it important to mention what I haven't seen in this discussion.
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nd ways to keep both going strong, whether
it's moving more to formal proposals (or not), other more formal methods (or
not) and keeping great, inclusive, respectful dialog alive as we do so.
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niffing up my, um, house).
Really, there isn't any way to know, without getting creepy - snoopy.
SteveA
> On Nov 11, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Lukas Richert wrote:
>
> If I understood you correctly, this would fall under grid-connected houses
> that I mentioned in the last example. This w
cific topic deserves. While I don't write this to
discourage posts to this list (I don't, as this list is a valuable place to
discuss), I have also noticed a trend towards formal proposals. "Ponds" seems
like an excellent candidate for one.
SteveA
Joseph, Kevin, Paul, Clifford, Martin, Peter, Tom, Brian, Andy,
Graeme...everybody else here: I love these conversations, thank you.
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) take the same care to design
well-constructed syntax / tagging schemes. Our map data deserve the most crisp
syntax, fully devoid of ambiguity, that we are able to devise.
SteveA
On Nov 14, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Lukas Richert wrote:
> I've been thinking more about this and I think the
Outstanding! Here we see Lucas well-separating "meaning spaces" apart at the
same time he's both looking towards the future as he offers others to sensibly
extend the table given the structure he has started it with. Bravo, sir. Good
things grow like this, with all the right ingredients in
ce of
those data.
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ay I ask how
you came about your edit on this particular element of OSM?”)
Good dialog here.
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eso via
a changeset comment that identifies that most or all of my data are from a
single source (like one layer of satellite imagery, for example).
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quality
(recent enough, accurate enough…) to enter into OSM. If they are not, don’t
import them. That’s all I’m saying here. I offer you my sincere apologies if
I misinterpreted you.
SteveA
On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Dave F via Tagging
wrote:
> On 17/11/2020 18:56, stevea wr
On Nov 8, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Anders Torger wrote:
> I believe the processes available are limited in terms of fixing structural
> problems.
You say you have long experience in open projects, that is a fantastic
launchpad from which to join OSM and improve it, even criticize it. I read
that
Oops, "dearth" of data, not "death."
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kills like wiki documentation, or even
just simply that you know the hours of when the coffee shop opening now happen
an hour earlier on weekdays, please, contribute what you can to OSM. As I do
so, I find the rewards are amazing. May you, as well.
SteveA
California
OSM Volunteer since 2009
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We're
generating light, not heat.
A lot of people (Simon, Phake, Dave F, Clay, Mateusz, Christoph, Brian, Seth,
Richard, more...) are quite right here. Let's listen to each other. We're all
much MORE in agreement than disagreement.
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up as one) allows us, as other tagging
schemes do, to apply tags sparsely if only sparse details are known about a
feature to be mapped. If greater detail is known, the syntax structure
specifies how to denote it. That’s an excellent example of one important part
of good syntax design.
SteveA
harmony to continue. This can be difficult, and even (like
here) sometimes must be explicitly spelled out, but with clarity, we can
understand how to solve the difficulties of such dialectical ambiguities.
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T
me going in OSM. We all have our favorite issues we might solve, may
you find that focusing your efforts results in you (and others) achieving what
you wish to see. It can be done, I'll attest. Certainly, this takes effort
and often head-scratching, lengthy, sometimes difficult interactions with
others and learning new things, yet those are part of the magic, charm and
rewards I find contributing to OSM.
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tic richness of the situation.
A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something like
towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road.
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On Oct 21, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Peter Elderson wrote:
> towing_penalty=no means your car is towed away for free? In Nederland, towing
> always comes with a penalty, even if you don't want your car back.
>
> Maybe a tag for consequences should be introduced. I suggest or_else=cargone.
What I mean
On Sep 26, 2022, at 5:14 PM, Georg wrote:
> Dear all,
> stevea wrote Mon Sep 26 2022 01:36:26 GMT+0200
>
>>>> Is tracktype=grade1 surface=compacted a valid combination?
>>>
>>> while the EN wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tr
Oops, that went to the list!
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On Oct 28, 2022, at 1:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 28 Oct 2022, at 09:58, Davidoskky via Tagging
>> wrote:
>>
>> While I could be interested in whether the flow of a fountain might be
>> stopped or not, I'm not really interested in how I'd have to do that: I can
>> just go to the
Hi Martin: (Off-list) Thank you; a very public apology isn't always easy, but
when warranted and sincere, it puts you into the light of "a very good person,"
at least in my eyes!
Steve
> On Oct 28, 2022, at 2:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 28 Oct
On Sep 25, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Georg wrote:
> stevea wrote Sun Sep 25 2022 00:43:53 GMT+0200
> > Is tracktype=grade1 surface=compacted a valid combination?
>
> while the EN wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype
> does not explicitly exclude it but "
Please allow me to add that what I'll call grade1 which ISN'T truly paved (or
once was), but is essentially surface=compacted, is a distinctly different kind
of road when it is wet, muddy or actively raining (at least for such
tracks/roads around here). These become pretty slick and even
On Sep 21, 2022, at 10:23 AM, Adam Franco wrote:
> For anyone who isn't follow all 3 threads, this topic is being discussed in:
>
> * OSM Community: RFC: Highway=Mountaineering
> * OSM Community: RfC: Highway=Scramble
> * [Tagging]: Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
>
> While the
Some of this I know, some of this we (maybe now) know better because of your
sharpening of focus. Thanks, Martin! That's a nice, rich list of six separate
tags that mean six separate things. Related, many can agree, sometimes
sensibly combined, though often not.
> On Sep 30, 2022, at 6:03
Makes sense to me, too, Greg. I don't know if it helps or hinders wider
understanding, but I understand what Greg is saying here, and while his
perspective is "Eastern USA" (and mine is "Western USA"), these don't seem far
apart or even different at all, and there may likely be a further
collection (which would be a
public use).
Sometimes we need to type these things out loud to "riff through the
possibilities." Hey, they don't call these "talk lists" (well, mail-lists,
too) for nothing.
> On Oct 1, 2022, at 3:25 AM, stevea wrote:
>
> Make
On Oct 1, 2022, at 12:54 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/22 08:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> I should have said that if you need to manipulate something to make the
>> water come out, then it's a tap!
>
> 'taps' also come with other things for example showers. It you map a
This person's opinion: I very much like capacity with amenity=bench,
especially when it is "significantly greater than two or three," though I also
see great merit in saying capacity=1 to emphasize "single-seat only" in some
cases where that might be or is unusual, or even usual!
Y'know, this
Water "tap" implies at least some (even if crude) control of the flow.
I don't know where the rest of it goes, but if you are "tapping" water (at a
drinking fountain, a sink, as a plumber...), you strongly imply, if not
guarantee, that you allow some control over the flow of it. To call it a
On Oct 4, 2022, at 12:51 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/10/22 08:31, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 10:07 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>> I don't think this is a drinking fountain, another mapper does.. what is
>> your opinion?
>>
>>
Yeah, this "lion spitting" non-potable water is what I might describe as a
"decorative fountain fixture," not a "water tap" (no valve or flow control) and
isn't drinkable (not a "drinking fountain," but it IS a "fountain") because the
sign warns the water isn't safe to drink.
With much of
Shawn has it right as I see it, too, so I think he says it for all of us.
Let's all say "there are regionalisms" and leave it at that (for now). Tags
can (and do) express those. It's complicated, not terribly too much.
And we tighten it up across stores (convenience or otherwise) as nodes and
On Oct 10, 2022, at 12:29 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> On 10.10.2022 17:01, Marc_marc wrote:
>> Le 10.10.22 à 10:54, Tom Pfeifer a écrit :
>>> Sometimes such changes can even have technical reasons
>>
>> this does not change the problem: if you have a banknote that
>> is not accepted by the vending
On Oct 10, 2022, at 3:22 PM, Davidoskky via Tagging
wrote:
>> Don't think it really needs anything more than you said earlier:
>>
>> amenity=fountain + fountain=decorative / utility / drinking
>>
>> should cover it?
Graeme, no, this isn't enough, as it oversimplifies too much.
> No, this is
Creating a new tag for an as-yet-unmapped feature (key) with variants
(differing values): no harder than making a formal Proposal (some effort, not
terribly difficult) and getting a super-majority to Approve. Do-able, “some
effort,” not trivial, but not impossible, either. I’ll say “about
On Oct 8, 2022, at 11:31 PM, stevea wrote:
> Yes, taps CAN be drinking water, but not necessarily are. For example, a
> hose_bib on a residence's "backyard porch" might be designed to attach a hose
> and water plants with a sprinkler or a hand-valve sprayer, but suc
Creating a new tag for an as-yet-unmapped feature (key) with variants
(differing values): no harder than making a formal Proposal (some effort, not
terribly difficult) and getting a super-majority to Approve. Do-able, “some
effort,” not trivial, but not impossible, either. I’ll say “about
, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> Vào lúc 23:50 2022-10-08, stevea đã viết:
>> On Oct 8, 2022, at 11:44 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 at 16:36, stevea wrote:
>>>
>>>> Disagree, some are are the same feature .. taps can be drinking
I love reading about all the German flavors here — and I'm not a bit surprised
(as the German language loves to do this, and I love German for this!)
On Oct 8, 2022, at 11:20 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/10/22 22:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> On 8 Oct 2022, at 12:43, Enno
My sincere apologies for any double-post you might have received from me just
now.
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On Oct 9, 2022, at 2:10 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
wrote:
> Oct 9, 2022, 10:53 by stevea...@softworkers.com:
> There is also the more “rogue” (not well-sanctioned, rather “under the
> radar,” maybe looked at by some or many as “disapproved” or “questionable…”)
> method of
On Oct 9, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> what about this?
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AFountain_Largo_Samuele_Alatri,_Roma,_Italia_Sep_01,_2020_12-52-56_PM.jpeg
For this one, it doesn't even have a tap (apparently, water simply continuously
flows), so I hesitate
On Oct 9, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
wrote:
> As the next part of drinking water linguistic journey I documented at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_tap#Examples
> (bottom example) that bubblers are mostly water taps, despite that
> it may be highly
On Oct 4, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Marc_marc wrote:
> Le 04.10.22 à 14:52, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
>> I would prefer even more using a different key for both: maybe
>> flow=gentle_upward_jet
>> flow=downward
>> would be better?
>
> as a not-native, gentle_upward_jet is again a mix
On Oct 9, 2022, at 2:38 PM, stevea wrote:
> For Fontanella_Bolsena, I say exactly the same things: could go either way.
> If someone tagged this "drinking fountain," I might shake my head "no,"
> (downward flow), but I would be terribly upset, because it IS drin
On Oct 9, 2022, at 4:15 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 10 Oct 2022, at 00:15, stevea wrote:
>>
>> If this water is potable, it's amenity=drinking_water.
>
> yes, it is potable, and if you look closely you’ll notice that the tube has
> an upper hol
his might
mean taking it to court).
So, the next time somebody tells you "it's our policy," you can say "well, that
doesn't trump the law" (and you might be able to add something like "nor my
rights, as our constitution enumerates some of them").
> On Oct 9,
On Oct 8, 2022, at 11:44 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 at 16:36, stevea wrote:
>
> > Disagree, some are are the same feature .. taps can be drinking water .. or
> > 'not suitable for drinking' (legal CYA?), 'recommend you boil' (more CYA?),
>
On Oct 9, 2022, at 12:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> sent from a phone
>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 08:43, stevea wrote:
>> Tags must capture these differences, and more.
>
> and ideally they should do it in a way to reduce confusion
Yes, thank you; +1. (I forgot to add
On Oct 9, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 23:21, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
>> wrote:
>>
>> I started this thread to confirm/reject listing
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Bubbler.jpg as
>> man_made=water_tap
>> fountain=bubbler
>>
Yes, I'm glad to hear this: somebody refusing a 500€ bill / invoice with a
500€ note would simply make me leave the note on the table (counter, hand of
the proprietor, if s/he let me...) and walk away, my obligation to remunerate
fully and legally completed.
At least in the USA, using
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