Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 2:00 PM James Knott via talk 
wrote:

> On 1/16/24 07:16, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> > CO-powered phones are still available
>
> Are they still CO powered?


My home internet is still metered and charged as a DSL line (by Teksavvy),
though I know my neighbourhood has fibre. (I watched it being laid.)
The line coming in is an RJ-11 cable that split between my home's internal
phone wiring and the DSL modem. No telco-supplied UPS on anything.

I don't know whether my dumb phone is powered by the CO or an UPS in a
neighbourhood Bell box.
I just know it's powered from outside the house, functioning the same way
as it has for decades, and it has done well during extended power outages.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[David Collier-Brown via talk]

On 2024-01-16 17:23, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:


My new connection at my new house that I moved to (OK I started moving
things) about 10 days ago has rogers fibre service with phone running
on that.

There is definitely no battery in any of the equipment.  So the ONT and
the router would both need to be on a UPS to keep service running.
The router is doing the phone gateway as well as wifi and routing and
all that.  The ONT is just fibre to ethernet.


Bell Canada no longer has to provide power to home phones.

They tried to sell us "fib", and said it was powered by them.

Not quite the case: their web site says "Please remember that your Home 
phone service, including access to 9-1-1 emergency services, will not 
work during a power outage."


I suspect they were claiming that the central office was powered by 
them, and hoping I would buy before I found out that they were telling a 
nose-stretcher.


--dave


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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2024-01-15 18:15, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

In rural Canada (more accurately in rural Manitoba) - - - that this is
surprising
is actually quite astounding to me. Service is this bad in significant
amounts of
rural Canada. So bad in fact that emergency responders (flooding/forest fires)
have refused to assist in certain areas. "The safety of their personnel would be
compromised was the response." Not much concern for those living there.
That seems ridiculous. First responders should not be relying on use of a 
cell phone. They always(?) have radios. If the problem is that bad they 
should be using sat phones instead of regular cell phones.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that
| distract the mouth-breathers, and
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | that's why we're powerful"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 01:12:42PM -0500, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> Bell and Rogers are now both offering VOIP based home phone services.
> I assume that they have batteries to keep things running in the event of a
> power outage but It would be interesting to have someone on list confirm
> that.
> I remember many years ago working with an ISDN ATA device from Bell that had
> NiCad batteries that did not last all that long and had real degradation
> problems.
> 
> You could fix the power issue with a UPS.
> You could likely pay for the UPS in the phone line savings in the first
> year.

My new connection at my new house that I moved to (OK I started moving
things) about 10 days ago has rogers fibre service with phone running
on that.

There is definitely no battery in any of the equipment.  So the ONT and
the router would both need to be on a UPS to keep service running.
The router is doing the phone gateway as well as wifi and routing and
all that.  The ONT is just fibre to ethernet.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Doctorow: "Sympathy for the spammer"

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

It is a good article but not universally true by a long shot, focusing on
email-based activities.

There are a number of scam-baiting channels on YouTube that lay bare the
tactics of many phone scams, and I'm sorry but I'm not going to have much
sympathy for those who aggressively harass people away from their money.
Sure they're making money for their bosses but their commission does them
well too.

FWIW, my personal favourite channel of this kind is Scammer Payback
.

- Evan



On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 1:16 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: mwilson--- via talk 
> | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct
> | technical answers]
>
> | Cory Doctorow posted a relevant article today:
> |
> https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/15/passive-income-brainworms/#four-hour-work-week
> |
> | Money quote:
> | "while we're nowhere near a place where bots can steal your job, we're
> | certainly at the point where your boss can be suckered into firing you
> and
> | replacing you with a bot that fails at doing your job"
>
> Thanks for the pointer.  A great article!
>
> I recommend that everyone read it.
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56
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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[James Knott via talk]

On 1/16/24 11:27, mwilson--- via talk wrote:

Help-desk people are forbidden to hang up, but if the customer terminated
the call it would count as a problem resolution, and therefore a good
thing.


Several years ago, I was doing some work at a Bell customer, hooking up 
an Adtran router to Bell ADSL.  One site went well, but I couldn't get 
the other site going.  I called Bell's support and got someone who 
insisted I click on the Start button.  Last I checked, Adtran routers 
didn't have a Start button.  The guy (in India) couldn't get off his 
script and do anything, so I asked to escalate.  He then hung up on me.  
The customer called her Bell rep, who said to call Bell's French line 
and I'd get someone in Canada, who could likely speak English.  I was 
then able to resolve the issue.  It was a Bell wiring error and I was 
able to finish the job, after they corrected the error.


BTW, I used to do both 1st & 3rd level support at IBM.

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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[James Knott via talk]

On 1/16/24 10:21, Steve Petrie via talk wrote:
My last Rogers interaction last week, had a Rogers sales rep ending 
his call to me, by shouting that I had just wasted his valuable time 
(because I had told him the technical reasons why I would rather pay a 
$18 / month Bell Canada premium, over the Rogers monthly service 
price, to keep my ROCK-SOLID RELIABLE Bell Canada service.


Why do you think it's rock solid?  The days of CO powered phones are 
pretty much long gone.  You probably have a pair of wires going out to 
somewhere in the neighbourhood, where it converts to fibre. Those have 
been around for years.


Also, I suspect that Rogers guy was likely working for a contractor.  I 
can tell you a story or two about Bell "employees", who were in India.


BTW, I have worked mostly in the telecom industry, going back to 1972 
and have done work for or with Bell, Rogers, Telus, MTS and others.  
Most recently, I was doing some work in the Rogers office, on Wolfedale 
in Mississauga.
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Re: [GTALUG] Doctorow: "Sympathy for the spammer"

[Mark Prosser via talk]

On 2024-01-16 13:16, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
  A great article!


I recommend that everyone read it.


I concur! Pluralistic is a great add to anyone's RSS Feeds.

He really nailed it with this one especially. I love how he kept harping 
on the scammer / desperate-scamee relationship:


>Famously, the only reliable way to cash out on the gold rush was to 
sell "picks and shovels" to the credulous, doomed and desperate.


Warm regards,

Mark

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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[James Knott via talk]

On 1/16/24 07:16, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

CO-powered phones are still available


Are they still CO powered?  Both Rogers and Bell are moving to VoIP over 
fibre to the neighbourhood.  There's an old Bell box near me, where the 
lines for the homes could connect to the cable.  It's been busted flat 
for years.

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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[James Knott via talk]

On 1/16/24 02:45, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

They try to hide the fact that their "home phone" service is over
VOIP.  For one thing, I think that they have dedicated bandwidth so
saturating your internet service won't break your phone service.


Compared to the bandwidth customers have, VoIP doesn't even amount to 
trivial.  For example, I get 1 Gb down and 50 Mb up from Rogers. A "toll 
quality" call requires 64 Kb in standard TDM systems (1 DS0).  With 
VoIP, the CODEC can require less bandwidth.  G.729a requires only 8 
Kb/s, though I doubt they're using that much compression.  Also, voice 
calls can be given priority over regular data.


By comparison with my 50 Mb/s upstream, the old TDM phone system had 24 
DS0s in a DS1 (T1) and 28 DS1s in a DS3 (T3) for about 45 Mb. That's 672 
phone calls!


With cell phones, the trend is the other way, with better than toll 
quality CODECs, often called HD voice.  VoIP phones can also use the 
better CODECs.
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[GTALUG] Doctorow: "Sympathy for the spammer"

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: mwilson--- via talk 
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct
| technical answers]

| Cory Doctorow posted a relevant article today:
| 
https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/15/passive-income-brainworms/#four-hour-work-week
| 
| Money quote:
| "while we're nowhere near a place where bots can steal your job, we're
| certainly at the point where your boss can be suckered into firing you and
| replacing you with a bot that fails at doing your job"

Thanks for the pointer.  A great article!

I recommend that everyone read it.
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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[mwilson--- via talk]

From: "Steve Petrie via talk" 
> [...]
> This same brain-dead abusive Rogers sales loser, actually ended our call
> by shouting "F**k You !!" at me, before he ended the call. Charming :)
> Seemed to me his vituperative manner could have been a reflection of a
> possibly desperate Rogers.

I've read about this kind of thing.  There was a post-mortem study after
Hydro One had replaced their billing system around 2011..2013 (?).
The link to the study may be buried somewhere deep in my old mail here,
but there's a taste at
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/hydro-one-on-billing-problems-we-ve-come-a-long-way-1.2947526

Management forecast that trouble calls would tick up by 20% or so
fallowing the switchover, and hired more help-line people accordingly. 
Instead, trouble calls were up by hundreds of percent, and the problems
themselves were very gnarly and hard to diagnose.  Management responded in
a few ways, unfortunately one way was to strongly incentivize the help
desk people to end trouble calls faster, and get more calls completed. 
The word got around that an effective method was to use profane and
obscene language to get the customer to hang up.
Help-desk people are forbidden to hang up, but if the customer terminated
the call it would count as a problem resolution, and therefore a good
thing.  Taking too long could cost a rep a job.

Looks like Rogers could be managing its people the same way.

Cory Doctorow posted a relevant article today:
https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/15/passive-income-brainworms/#four-hour-work-week

Money quote:
"while we're nowhere near a place where bots can steal your job, we're
certainly at the point where your boss can be suckered into firing you and
replacing you with a bot that fails at doing your job"




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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Steve Petrie via talk]

 Original Message 

SUBJECT:
Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

DATE:
2024-01-16 08:54

FROM:
Ron / BCLUG via talk 

TO:
talk@gtalug.org

Steve Petrie via talk wrote on 2024-01-16 05:41:

A. SSO (single sign on) -- Is it an SSO offer, when my Firefox 
browser "helpfully" asks me if I would like it [my browser] to 
"remember" my login credentials ??


[rb]
No, SSO where one signs in to a site they've never visited via their 
Google or GitHub account, for example.


[sp]


I always respond in the NEGATIVE to these "helpful"  browser offers.


So, you type in user and password every time you log into every site?

I can't imagine the internet being very useful in that case, but 
everyone's got different risk tolerances, plus I may be misunderstanding 
your method of logging in to sites.


[sp]
No. You're not misunderstanding me.

I obsessively type in my userid and super-long obsessively randomized 
password EVERY TIME I sign on my Firefox browser to my webmail service. 
In fact, I type in EVERYWHERE a super-long obsessively randomized 
password, EVERYWHERE A PASSWORD IS REQUIRED.


(This absurdly over-the-top hyper-anal security-obsessive behaviour, is 
likely a happy combination of: (1) innate masochism, smoothly blended 
with (2) a tight-assed White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) obsessive 
detail-orientation, (3) sweetly encapsulated with the vestiges of an 
engineering education.


The ridiculously obsessive webmail sign on, has become so habitual, it 
only takes me a few seconds, because I have perfectly memorized my very 
long and obsessively randomized password.


Every such keyboard-laborious sign on, gives me a tiny thrill of 
pleasure, in knowing that my very long and obsessively randomized 
password is extremely spoof-proof.


* * *
* * *

[rb]
I guess I don't understand how having one's browser save username and 
(hopefully long) password combos gets "scare quotes" around "helpful".


[sp]
Kindly forgive my lack of mailing list etiquette knowledge. I didn't 
know that use of scare quotes conveyed such implications. My use of 
scare quotes was merely for emphasis. Hopefully, a use of bolding 
instead of scare quotes will improve my list etiquette skill rating :)


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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[Steve Petrie via talk]

 Original Message 

| From: Alvin Starr via talk 

Rogers has or had UPS built into the home phone box.  And they have
batteries on their neighbourhood boxes.  (During a long power failure,
they even brought a generator for the one near us.)

[Steve Petrie]
Nice to read something positive about Rogers.

My last Rogers interaction last week, had a Rogers sales rep ending his 
call to me, by shouting that I had just wasted his valuable time 
(because I had told him the technical reasons why I would rather pay a 
$18 / month Bell Canada premium, over the Rogers monthly service price, 
to keep my ROCK-SOLID RELIABLE Bell Canada service.


This same brain-dead abusive Rogers sales loser, actually ended our call 
by shouting "F**k You !!" at me, before he ended the call. Charming :) 
Seemed to me his vituperative manner could have been a reflection of a 
possibly desperate Rogers.


Bell Canada execs may surely be cruel and ruthless greedy squeezers, but 
still, Bell does seem to value service reliability as a core corporate 
value.


* * *
* * *

[Alvin Starr]
Bell had a UPS built into their home internet+phone boxes.  But not the 
latest ones.


(The old Bell system had large lead-acid batteries in the COs.  Old 
handsets were actually powered by the CO.  Modern ones have their own 
power for many functions.  So we used to expect the phone to work

during "hydro" failures.)

[Steve Petrie]
My friend who lives in her house in the Bloor West Village / High Park 
area, has an ancient wall-mounted Northern Telecom analogue phone in her 
kitchen. So far as I know, this indestructible NT museum-piece is still 
powered from the Bell CO.


Whenever she occasionally has a Bell service outage, she's at the bottom 
of Bell Canada's repair priority list.


She tells me that the Bell technician despatched to fix her dead 
copper-pair service, is invariably contemptuous and surly to her. Seems 
like like internal Bell ethos is to consider all 
twisted-copper-pair-connected service holdouts, as hopelessly outdated 
dispensable ancient codgers. Probably some obscure CRTC ruling prevents 
Bell Canada from forcing the few remaining copper-pair holdouts onto 
Bell Fibe.


Bell Canada has run a fibre line to a Bell box fastened to the exterior 
brick wall of her house, but so far, my friend is a relentlessly frugal 
Bell CO-powered bastion of senior citizen obduracy. It just occurred to 
me, that she probably saves a couple of cents every month, by drawing 
her phone-power from the Bell CO, instead of getting her phone power 
through her metered Toronto Hydro power service.

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Re: [GTALUG] AI - Llama 2 an open source AI that can run on a Raspberry PI

[Colin McGregor via talk]

Here is what I got from the 13b model:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> A year from now, will everyone have forgotten about AI having moved on to 
> some other buzzword?
 Ha! Well, I'm not sure if anyone will ever forget about AI
completely, but it's likely that the buzz around it will die down a
bit as new technologies and trends emerge. After all, the tech world
is constantly evolving, and there's always something new and shiny to
capture our attention.

That being said, AI has already had a profound impact on many
industries, and its influence will likely be felt for years to come.
So even if the hype around it subsides, AI itself will continue to be
an important part of our technological landscape. And who knows -
maybe in a year from now, we'll be talking about some other
groundbreaking technology that has the potential to change the world!

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:37 PM Evan Leibovitch  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 3:33 PM Colin McGregor  wrote:
>
>>
>> At present questions I am asking are "Is AI JUST this year's IT Bonus 
>> Buzzword Bingo Word?"
>
>
> Given that "AI" is not even a word, it's an odd question.
>
> Superficially, one could ask whether it's just the current replacement for 
> "cryptocurrency" only to be replaced by some other hot new term in the near 
> future. While fleeting public obsession with a term might be an interesting 
> observation, it's highly unlikely that the technology itself is transient.
>
> At the very least, try getting a job as a translator these days.
>
> As a for-instance that is close to home, a number of AI tools are being 
> created that will make redundant many of the maintenance and troubleshooting 
> sysadmin jobs out there. While a human component is likely to always be 
> useful, the few jobs that will survive will be senior positions which will 
> supervise the actions of the bots. Such tasks are already being made 
> redundant in other low-level jobs such as paralegals. A discussion elsewhere 
> on this list indicates that at least some here have found AI to be good at 
> not only creating but debugging code.
>
> I've already found chat-based AI -- accessed easily through tools such as 
> Voilà on my desktop and Pi on my phone -- to be good enough to replace my 
> regular Google and DuckDuckGo searches for all except two kinds of queries: 
> those that (1) are location-aware and (2) are asked for opinions rather than 
> solutions.
>
>> and "A year from now, will everyone have forgotten about AI having moved on 
>> to <>?".
>
>
> Here's a screenshot of ChatGPT's answer  to that question. Maybe as a thought 
> experiment you might want to consider asking your LlamaPie setup the sema 
> question and tell us how that goes
>
> - Evan
>
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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Ron / BCLUG via talk]

Steve Petrie via talk wrote on 2024-01-16 05:41:

A. SSO (single sign on) -- Is it an SSO offer, when my Firefox 
browser "helpfully" asks me if I would like it [my browser] to 
"remember" my login credentials ??


No, SSO where one signs in to a site they've never visited via their 
Google or GitHub account, for example.




I always respond in the NEGATIVE to these "helpful"  browser offers.


So, you type in user and password every time you log into every site?


I can't imagine the internet being very useful in that case, but 
everyone's got different risk tolerances, plus I may be misunderstanding 
your method of logging in to sites.


I guess I don't understand how having one's browser save username and 
(hopefully long) password combos gets "scare quotes" around "helpful".



rb

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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Scott Allen via talk]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 at 00:56, Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
> google authenticator  has a chrome extension you can use.
> I use a package called authy that has a desktop version.

For RFC 6238 Timed-based One-time Password (TOTP), which most sites
that offer TOTP use, I use the Google Authenticator app on my phone
and KeePassXC for PCs. When adding a new site, I set up both at the
same time, with the same key/QR code, so they generate the same codes
and I can use either to sign in.
https://keepassxc.org/

However, if offered, my first choice for 2FA is a physical security
key. I have a Google Titan key.
https://store.google.com/ca/product/titan_security_key

Yubico keys are probably the more popular choice and offer models with
more features.
https://www.yubico.com/products/

It's more convenient to press a button instead of having to enter a
code, even if you can copy and paste the code. Most sites allow you to
set up both TOTP and physical key based 2FA, which I do in case I
don't have my Titan key with me.

There's also the relatively new "passkey" standard for phones, that
doesn't require a hardware key or entry of a passcode. I haven't seen
much use of this yet.
https://fidoalliance.org/passkeys/

-- 
Scott
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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[Steve Petrie via talk]

[snip]

[Steve Petrie]

Is it EVEN POSSIBLE for a clever hacker to spoof my email inbox and 
steal my inbound email messages ??


[Alvin Starr]
In theory yes.
If they can gain control of your DNS entries they could redirect your MX 
but that is low risk.
If they get your login they could insert an email filter that forwards 
all your messages to somewhere else.
If they have access to your mail server then your messages may be 
readable using 'cat' or they could modify the mail transport to redirect 
mails.


[Steve Petrie]

I suppose this would require the hacker to: (1) steal my password 
protecting my email access login at my email hosting provider, or (2) 
Steal my password protecting my personally-maintained DNS records at my 
DNS provider, or (3) hack my email hosting provider's infrastructure, 
or (4) hack my DNS provider's infrastructure.


[Alvin Starr]
We have the same list of hacks.

But here is one more.

If you access your email via a browser it is possible for a hacker to 
get your session keys and craft up a session and then login to your 
email without having to actually log in.

Which is a good reason to not use SSO services.

[Steve Petrie]
A. SSO (single sign on) -- Is it an SSO offer, when my Firefox 
browser "helpfully" asks me if I would like it [my browser] to 
"remember" my login credentials ??


I always respond in the NEGATIVE to these "helpful"  browser offers.

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Re: [GTALUG] landline power [was Re: "AI" on getting correct technical answers]

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 2:46 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:


> (The old Bell system had large lead-acid batteries in the COs.  Old handsets
> were actually powered by the CO.  Modern ones have their own power for
> many functions.  So we used to expect the phone to work during "hydro"
> failures.)
>

I still do.

While I have some cheap Vtech phones with message recorder plugged into the
landline, I still maintain one plain touchtone phone in the living room
that has no external power and still runs fine. Two years ago, when my
street's power transformer blew and we had no electricity for days while it
was replaced, that phone worked just fine throughout. Between that and the
UPS I used for charging my mobile devices, I made many new friends among my
neighbours. (Having a gas stove was also very helpful at the time...)

CO-powered phones are still available and their simplicity keeps them cheap.


- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] "AI" on getting correct technical answers

[ac via talk]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 23:38:58 -0500
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> I had no obviously easy to know where your posting from.
> I guess the thing is that your posting to a Greater Toronto Area LUG 
> from away.
> There is no reason why you should not do that, its just the
> assumption that your likely local.
> I know a lot of people on this list and they are all pretty well
> local but for one guy in Africa.
> 
one guy in Africa, I guess this be me.

So anyway, when I subscribed to TLUG I was visiting my Aunt (my mothers
sister), a Canadian whom and lived and worked in Toronto for 40+ years
(newspaper editor/teacher/writer) and I wanted to connect with the 
local Linux community in Toronto...

I got to know some people in the community and then I guess I just
never left, some people on this list are really just very cool people.

so, my Aunt passed away, and my Mom a few months ago, the past few years
were not great years for me.

Anyway, just thought I would put this out here for those that do not
know anything about this one guy in Africa :)

Andre

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added '--' above so that it 'should' read as a sig and not bug/bother
read more about me (if you are bored), so get a coffee and read!

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about me in a nutshell: I use Linux for everything. I love Linux.
I operate a very small boutique ISP with 60k odd mailboxes and a few
thousand websites. I dev my own stuff, my own EPP systems (I am a 
domain registrar), operate/manage many many DNS servers, many 
email servers and I totally do my own thing - all on Linux. I have been
on the Internet since I switched of my bbs circa 1988 (compuserv) 
For fun I dev NEW stuff, (initially cult of the dead cow type stuff,
much later fyodor (GL - if using google add: nmap) type stuff, and then
onto larger things for example, I started making my own Linux in the 
late 90's I started making my first web application in 2001 (stopped 
it in 2008) the code, around 500 000 lines of it - is published under
the GPL)  - made my first mobile phone app in 2007. Started making "AI"
in 2010 (stopped ai dev in 2014) I have not done much the past ten
years, except maintain a few libraries (lgpl and gpl stuff) and this
and that on dnssec, some internet abuse type stuff, a few bind stuff
and I am also now doing something else, which I think may have legs,
but the jury is still out on that.

As a kid, and growing up I went to a farm school, I learned wood 
working, arc and gas welding and at University an accountant 
(with computer science at least :) ) in .za we had to do 
compulsory 'military service' so I was in the Police and I have 
done so many interesting things, most of which I will not bore 
you with as much of it is unbelievable anyway.

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