date:20111230

I would like to see a combination (yes, I could work on that myself, but 
neither I'm a rails coder, nor do I have the time - sorry ;) ) of a map 
and the data.
Observing Kothic.js as a client side rendering engine and some 
approaches and ideas towards tile based data delivery I wish we could 
have one example map, but a map editor, too on the front page.


Imagine, the front page would load the data you need to display the map 
style you decided to view for the area you want to display.
Imagine, you could use checkboxes to add or remove a feature, color 
choosers to choose a color and for people who want to, define your very 
own styles in a textbox accepting e.g. MapCSS-definitions.
It would probably even be possible to use the 
alternative-stylesheet-mechanisms the browsers provide to set up a 
client side stylesheet for my personal osm map view.


I know, that's a lot of work. I know, I'm not the one implementing that 
(in the next months), and I wish I would have the time to learn rails 
and do it.
But it would be a compromise between the we are a map and the we are 
a data provider.
It would be the we are a data provider with the addition of user 
friendly presentation of the data - and not presentation of a (the?) 
map, because: The Mapnik rendering is a presentation of data. Parts of 
the stylesheet are designed to be a presentation of the data and not to 
make the nicest map AFAIK.


Doing this rendering on client side, supported by all major browsers 
would lead to
- more diversity in maps (share your GPX, share your Data, share your 
Map-Style (!))

- probably better pointing to the database without being a geek-only-game
- probably forming the idea of they have data better at a probably 
lower user level.


regards
Peter

Am 29.12.2011 22:39, schrieb Ben Johnson:
For what it's worth I also think it's very important to have a 
prominent map on the front page and I believe this whole debate just 
highlights the fact that OSM is not ready for mainstream and remains a 
geeky subculture.


There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are 
saying lets make it more accessible and friendly to ordinary people. 
On the other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps 
to represent what our community is all about, and they want to retain 
a geeky we are not a map, we are a database ideology.


The two goals are completely incompatible because ordinary people 
expect OSM to be all about maps. In fact, I was drawn into the project 
on the premise that OSM is the Wikipedia of maps, and I found it an 
exciting prospect to contribute to such a great idea.


Well... you go over to Wikipedia and the first thing you see is the 
front page of an encyclopedia, ready to be searched and used as such. 
You know there's no bells and whistles, and thats a good thing. You're 
attracted by the clean commercial-free environment, and you have 
confidence that the information in Wikipedia has been lovingly 
provided by contributors who want to leave their legacy to the world 
by sharing their knowledge and expertise, and rigorously reviewed and 
checked by other contributors.


You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we 
are a database of information. No... they scream from the mountain 
tops we are the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it.


Why can't OSM be also scream from
a nearby mountain top, we are the world's map I mean, what's so 
embarrassing about providing a good, comprehensive, accessible map? 
It's an accomplishment of which we should all be proud, not hide away.


Yes we don't have gimmicks like street view and satellite view. So too 
Wikipedia lacks rich multimedia content. It's simple, clean, fast, 
comprehensive, accurate - and yet very very successful.


Again, what is embarrassing about a map?

I really do hope OSM finds its way through this quagmire of identity 
and eventually becomes the world's map, widely used, integrated, and 
quoted in all kinds of spheres.


That's my vision.

BJ


On 29/12/2011, at 9:09, Barnett, Phillip phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk 
mailto:phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk wrote:


Well yes, but instead you've got a very conspicuous link saying 
'Where's the map? .. here it is.


And also four other obvious maps below that even!



PHILLIP BARNETT
SERVER MANAGER

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LONDON
WC1X 8XZ
UNITED KINGDOM
T +44 (0)20 7430 4474
F
E phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk mailto:phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk
WWW.ITN.CO.UK http://WWW.ITN.CO.UK
Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?

-Original Message-
From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org]
Sent: 28 December 2011 21:51
To: Thomas Davie
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

Hi,

On 12/28/2011 10:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 This is a lot better though than Can you believe it, OpenStreetMap 
doesn't even have an open street map on their home page!.


We've been using

Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Simon Poole



I'm not quite sure where this rather emotional discussion is supposed to 
lead.


There is nothing stopping anybody from building this great hunking 
online map site with OSM-data with all the whizz-bang features they want 
(and it is conceivable that the OSMF could support such an enterprise 
parallel to core-OSM). Fact is that nobody has volunteered to do it, 
there hasn't been an attempt to do it commercially (hint: that might 
tell us something), there hasn't even been an attempt  to organize 
volunteers to build such a site.


My conclusion: this thread is actually about wanting -other- people to 
implement grandiose ideas in their free-time and being upset and whining 
when they are not particularly enthusiastic about it (because they want 
to do something else).


No money and/or no volunteers == nothing is going to happen.

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Kai Krueger


SimonPoole wrote
 
 There is nothing stopping anybody from building this great hunking 
 online map site with OSM-data with all the whizz-bang features they want 
 (and it is conceivable that the OSMF could support such an enterprise 
 parallel to core-OSM). Fact is that nobody has volunteered to do it

There is a second aspect to this too though, motivation. If every time
someone suggests some improvements into the consumer side of things, they
get shot down by the oldtimers and other people who decide what happens in
the project, because they want to stay as geeky as possible and not adapt to
becoming more consumer oriented, then the motivation to code any feature in
that direction is close to zero.

There is probably not much that can kill motivation to work on a project in
ones own free time more than getting told your effort isn't wanted and then
having to fight for getting something included for years... The first step
to getting coders, therefore, is imho to actually have a desire to want to
include these kind of features. As long as there remains a hostile
environment to these things, they won't happen and you end up having a
viscous circle.

I know full well, there is much more that is needed than just the desire to
make things happen, but the desire is equally necessary.

Kai


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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Kai Krueger


Toby Murray-2 wrote
 
 On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Ben Johnson lt;tangararama@gt; wrote:
 You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we are a
 database of information. No... they scream from the mountain tops we
 are
 the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it.

 Why can't OSM be also scream from
 a nearby mountain top, we are the world's map I mean, what's so
 embarrassing about providing a good, comprehensive, accessible map? It's
 an
 accomplishment of which we should all be proud, not hide away.
 
 [...]
 
 I do think there is a non-trivial technical difference between OSM and
 wikipedia. The text of a given wikipedia article is 90% of the value.
 It can be displayed as-is and still be useful. Making it pretty and
 user-friendly is relatively trivial with some CSS or whatever.
 
 Our map data is completely different. It is absolutely useless to most
 people without a rendering process which is much more complicated than
 formatting some HTML. There are color schemes, rendering choices,
 de-clutterification, regional cartographic conventions, etc, etc.
 Which is why we leave it up to other people to do this since they can
 make what they need out of our data.
 
One can turn that example around by 180°: Despite the fact that wikipedia's
raw data, a XML dump, is so much easier to turn into something usable than
OSM's data, they still put in the effort to present it in a human usable
form.

For OSM with its useless to most people data, it is even more important to
present it in a human consumable fashion. This conversion doesn't have to
all be done by OSMF, but there needs to be a central place with easy to
understand access to all of the various options. Furthermore, if no external
third party provides an adequate and easy to integrate version of something,
then OSMF has to think about if it can support the creation of consumer
facing products, as that is imho essential for the growth of OSM data.

What needs to be overcome is that one currently has to study the
organizational diagram of the OSM project with its hundreds of independent
third party sites, before one can figure out how to get anything useful out
of osm and to avoid getting an unfriendly response of that one is doing it
completely wrong.

Kai

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie

On 12/30/11 00:50, Toby Murray wrote:
 I do think there is a non-trivial technical difference between OSM and
 wikipedia. The text of a given wikipedia article is 90% of the value.
 It can be displayed as-is and still be useful. Making it pretty and
 user-friendly is relatively trivial with some CSS or whatever.

 Our map data is completely different. It is absolutely useless to most
 people without a rendering process which is much more complicated than
 formatting some HTML. There are color schemes, rendering choices,
 de-clutterification, regional cartographic conventions, etc, etc.
 Which is why we leave it up to other people to do this since they can
 make what they need out of our data.

Even more importantly it's quite easy to convert a wikipedia article to
some sort of plain text as a basis for an entirely different
encyclopedia, even without access to the source text version of the
page. For Maps this is even harder to get from a pixel image back to
some meaningful vector data.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Yves

A lot of good concepts are evoked here, but we should remember that osm, as a 
lot of open projects is a do-ocracy.
Things that (not involved) people say are good to listen, but in this list this 
sounds more like things people don't do.
By now, doing things may looks geeky, but there is a need of good geeks to 
attain the aims of low entry level to map or good maps, more than Osmf can or 
wants to provide. 
Any takers?
Yves
-- 
Envoyé de mon téléphone Android avec K-9 Mail. Excusez la brièveté.


Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com a écrit :


Toby Murray-2 wrote
 
 On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Ben Johnson lt;tangararama@gt; wrote:
 You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we are a
 database of information. No... they scream from the mountain tops we
 are
 the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it.

 Why can't OSM be also scream from
 a nearby mountain top, we are the world's map I mean, what's so
 embarrassing about providing a good, comprehensive, accessible map? It's
 an
 accomplishment of which we should all be proud, not hide away.
 
 [...]
 
 I do think there is a non-trivial technical difference between OSM and
 wikipedia. The text of a given wikipedia article is 90% of the value.
 It can be displayed as-is and still be useful. Making it pretty and
 user-friendly is relatively trivial with some CSS or whatever.
 
 Our map data is completely different. It is absolutely useless to most
 people without a rendering process which is much more complicated than
 formatting some HTML. There are color schemes, rendering choices,
 de-clutterification, regional cartographic conventions, etc, etc.
 Which is why we leave it up to other people to do this since they can
 make what they need out of our data.
 
One can turn that example around by 180°: Despite the fact that wikipedia's
raw data, a XML dump, is so much easier to turn into something usable than
OSM's data, they still put in the effort to present it in a human usable
form.

For OSM with its useless to most people data, it is even more important to
present it in a human consumable fashion. This conversion doesn't have to
all be done by OSMF, but there needs to be a central place with easy to
understand access to all of the various options. Furthermore, if no external
third party provides an adequate and easy to integrate version of something,
then OSMF has to think about if it can support the creation of consumer
facing products, as that is imho essential for the growth of OSM data.

What needs to be overcome is that one currently has to study the
organizational diagram of the OSM project with its hundreds of independent
third party sites, before one can figure out how to get anything useful out
of osm and to avoid getting an unfriendly response of that one is doing it
completely wrong.

Kai

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote:

First apology for me poor english (french speaking).

 For what it's worth I also think it's very important to have a prominent
 map on the front page and I believe this whole debate just highlights the
 fact that OSM is not ready for mainstream and remains a geeky subculture.
 
 There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are saying
 lets make it more accessible and friendly to ordinary people. On the
 other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps to represent
 what our community is all about, and they want to retain a geeky we are
 not a map, we are a database ideology.

OSM is a geographic database., it's not an ideology, it's a fact.

 The two goals are completely incompatible because ordinary people expect
 OSM to be all about maps. In fact, I was drawn into the project on the
 premise that OSM is the Wikipedia of maps, and I found it an exciting
 prospect to contribute to such a great idea.

One can build a map around OSM data, that's what do Mapnik project (the
map you see on OSM front page) and many other renderer : openmapquest,
cloudmade ans so on.

 Well... you go over to Wikipedia and the first thing you see is the front
 page of an encyclopedia, ready to be searched and used as such.

Of course, Wikipedia is an enclyclopedia.
What was difficult with OSM (and a bit geeky as you said above) is the
difference between a map and map data. This difference is important, but
not easy to understand.
You build a map (a representation) with data (OSM).
But not everyone need the same map, the same representation. Some want
emphazing on roads (use openmapquest), some prefer emphasing on footway
or bicycle or anything you want.
OSM has around lot of other project that build map (mapnik was one) and
it's good.

  [...]
 You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we are a
 database of information. No... they scream from the mountain tops we are
 the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it.

The comparaison is not correct, wikipedia is in fact an enclyclopedia.
OSM is not a map project it's more.

 Why can't OSM be also scream from a nearby mountain top, we are the
 world's map...

Because there not one good map, it's impossible. Map(s) is(are) a
different things that an enclyclopedia.
A single map could not represent everything, is you put too much
information on a single map, it will because useless and go to trash.
For example mapnik rendering (default OSM map) do not represent many
objects. For me representing foot crossing and handicap accessibility is
important (it's an example) but mapnik do not represent those items...
For example, i way a clear easy to read map for travel, i dont want to
see every shop on the map... mapnik is not the map i need.

 I mean, what's so embarrassing about providing a good,
 comprehensive, accessible map? It's an accomplishment of which we should
 all be proud, not hide away.

Yes, and some prpject to this job nicely. These are side project, not
OSM main project.
Perhaps OSM would add to it's goal a realize a good map (the problem
would be to define what is a good map) but its not OSM goals.

 Again, what is embarrassing about a map?

nothing.

 
 I really do hope OSM finds its way through this quagmire of identity and
 eventually becomes the world's map, widely used, integrated, and quoted in
 all kinds of spheres.
 
 That's my vision.

Perhaps would you have to participate to mapnik project (those who
define OSM default map).

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/


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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Hi,

On 12/30/11 11:26, Kai Krueger wrote:

There is a second aspect to this too though, motivation. If every time
someone suggests some improvements into the consumer side of things, they
get shot down by the oldtimers and other people who decide what happens in
the project, because they want to stay as geeky as possible and not adapt to
becoming more consumer oriented, then the motivation to code any feature in
that direction is close to zero.


There's a lot of untrue statements in that long sentence, but I would 
like to concentrate on the overall untrue-ness:


If OSM doesn't want to be what I would like it to be then the 
motivation to code ... is close to zero.


This couldn't be more wrong. If *I* had a great idea for a map platform, 
and I suggested that to OSM, and those grey-haired conservative OSM 
oldtimer geek bastards said no thanks we'd rather remain small and 
unknown, then of course the first thing I would do is set it up myself, 
attract all the consumers to *my* site and then smile at OSM when for 
every 1000 visitors they get, I get a million!


As I said in one of my earlier postings; if you want to make a consumer 
map platform based on OSM, what's to stop you? OSM delivers data, you 
package it and make a great experience out of it. It doesn't even have 
to be you alone, or a MapQuest-like enterprise. Start a project - the 
open cartography project or the open map portal or the free map 
network or whatever. Gather UI whizkids, cartography buffs, build a 
nice consumer-oriented site; team up with naturalearthdata.com... all 
this is possible *today*, and is possible *with* (not against!) 
OpenStreetMap.


Of course, if your answer to the above is well people might not have 
the resources... then let me tell you that OSM doesn't have resources 
coming out of their ears either; if you have a great idea that you feel 
you cannot pull off yourself but you need OSM resources to pull it off, 
then we're back at exactly what Simon said - I would like you to make 
my idea happen.


I am absolutely not against anyone packaging OSM into a nice, free, 
open, versatile, flexible, consumer-oriented, service-desk-equipped, 
all-singing, all-dancing map portal.


I am just against diverting *our* resources which we desperately need to 
maintain and edit our data, keep our databases running smoothly, work on 
data modeling and tagging and tools to help mappers fix bugs and have a 
good data quality, work on licensing and editors and deal with vandalism 
and policy and all that, into trying to look like a map portal. Which we 
just aren't.



There is probably not much that can kill motivation to work on a project in
ones own free time more than getting told your effort isn't wanted and then
having to fight for getting something included for years...


I don't get this whole idea of getting something included. I really 
don't. I mean look at the opencyclemap, for example. Andy set that up 
himself and nobody fought for including anything; a while ago OSM came 
to him asking whether they could use his tiles on the main page (or 
maybe he was prodded by lots of people to offer his tiles to OSM).


The only reason why you want to fight for something to be included is if 
it is a drain on resources (and you'd rather have it drain OSM's 
resources than your own), or something that nobody would care for 
otherwise and where you hope that OSM's popularity will give it a boost.



As long as there remains a hostile
environment to these things,


I don't think it is a good choice of words. Let's just say the idea and 
the environment don't match. Fresh air is a nice environment for me to 
be in but hostile to fish; that doesn't mean fresh air is bad, it just 
isn't right for fish. And neither are fish bad; they just do better in 
water.


When ideas pop up on what OSM could be, some of them will fit OSM and 
some won't. That doesn't mean that OSM is somehow generally hostile, or 
some ideas are somehow generally bad. It's just that *this* project with 
*these* people and *these* resources might not be the right match for 
every idea.


For me, the idea of a user friendly map portal (with a nice brand name 
and matching apps, with maps, routing, geocoding, aerial imagery, 
streetview imagery and all) is not a *bad* idea, and if someone made 
such a portal they should certainly be encouraged to use OSM for it. 
It's just that I don't think OSM has the spare resources to become such 
a portal, and I think it would place an undue burden on those other 
activities we have on our plates if we were to aspire to that. Because 
for every 1000 mappers we have asking for a new feature in Potlatch, 
we'd have a million consumers asking for some feature on the web site to 
make it more user friendly, and guess what that would logically mean 
for resource allocation.


I used to say that we are the open alternative to TeleAtlas or Navteq, 
not the open alternative to Google. Now that Google starts ditching 
those

Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Serge Wroclawski

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

 On 12/29/2011 10:39 PM, Ben Johnson wrote:

 There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are
 saying lets make it more accessible and friendly to ordinary people.
 On the other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps to
 represent what our community is all about, and they want to retain a
 geeky we are not a map, we are a database ideology.


 This is not a geeky ideology, this is the heart of our project.

 Otherwise we'd all be using the Gimp (or maybe Inkscape), and not JOSM or
 Potlatch.

Let's remember that Frederik believes that not everyone should be a
map contributor, that there's value in a high bar for contribution.
Frederik, if you think I'm misrepresenting you, please say so- but I
think this belies the difference in the two views.

This reminds me a lot of the early Debian arguments:   Linux can't be
for the masses turned into I like compiling my own kernel and we
should have a high bar for contribution.

Fast forward five years, and I'm using Ubuntu.

I agree wholeheartedly with the view that OSM should be providing
maps. I think as long as we continue to cling to this idea that we
want third parties to make the maps, then we limit the project's
viability, its success and its overall accuracy.

I hope strongly that the view will change, that the OSMF board will
reflect this view. I've seen a slight shift already in the time I've
been with the project. There's far more room for discussion on the
point than there was just a few years ago, but I'm also worried that
the strong beliefs of respected core project members like Frederik
have driven away those who care about the project, but don't share the
same views.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 14:23, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 12/30/11 11:26, Kai Krueger wrote:
 There is a second aspect to this too though, motivation. If every time
 someone suggests some improvements into the consumer side of things, they
 get shot down by the oldtimers and other people who decide what happens in
 the project, because they want to stay as geeky as possible and not adapt to
 becoming more consumer oriented, then the motivation to code any feature in
 that direction is close to zero.
 
 There's a lot of untrue statements in that long sentence, but I would like to 
 concentrate on the overall untrue-ness:
 
 If OSM doesn't want to be what I would like it to be then the motivation 
 to code ... is close to zero.
 
 This couldn't be more wrong. If *I* had a great idea for a map platform, and 
 I suggested that to OSM, and those grey-haired conservative OSM oldtimer geek 
 bastards said no thanks we'd rather remain small and unknown, then of 
 course the first thing I would do is set it up myself, attract all the 
 consumers to *my* site and then smile at OSM when for every 1000 visitors 
 they get, I get a million!

You make it sound so easy to run a site getting a million visitors each loading 
a good few thousand (relatively) large data files.

 As I said in one of my earlier postings; if you want to make a consumer map 
 platform based on OSM, what's to stop you? OSM delivers data, you package it 
 and make a great experience out of it. It doesn't even have to be you alone, 
 or a MapQuest-like enterprise. Start a project - the open cartography 
 project or the open map portal or the free map network or whatever. 
 Gather UI whizkids, cartography buffs, build a nice consumer-oriented site; 
 team up with naturalearthdata.com... all this is possible *today*, and is 
 possible *with* (not against!) OpenStreetMap.

The point is that the understanding that OSM is about *only* map data is 
*incorrect.  The hint is in the name – it's OpenStreet *Map*, not 
OpenMapDatabase.  Yes, the database is a *very* important part of the project, 
and indeed should be our main focus, but we shouldn't forget that the goal of 
the process is to provide high quality maps for people to use.  I doubt SteveC 
(and he can correct me if I'm wrong), set out thinking hey, you know what 
would be cool?  A huge database of map data that we don't show to anyone!  That 
we I can be really useless without a third party making something interesting 
out of it!

Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Russ Nelson

Frederik Ramm writes:
  For me, the idea of a user friendly map portal (with a nice brand name 
  and matching apps, with maps, routing, geocoding, aerial imagery, 
  streetview imagery and all) is not a *bad* idea, and if someone made 
  such a portal they should certainly be encouraged to use OSM for it. 

When I worked for Cloudmade I found a nice book on map
projections. They bought it for me because they were nice that
way. Without going into any of the projections, lesson #1 from that
book is: every map has its compromises. All of them. So, purely from a
technical standpoint, we shouldn't be telling people that Mapnik is
the be-all and end-all of map tile sets.

IMHO, Mapnik is the tile set for OSM editors. As such, it should be
more concerned about completeness than anything else. And as such, map
editors will be happy to click on a http://mapnik.osm.org link on the
front page of OSM. It's probably MUCH better for our community of
users if we give them a list of links to maps, than if we show them
just one map. Make it a bunch of screen shots of the same place with
links.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Cartinus

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/30/2011 03:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 we shouldn't forget that the goal of the process is to provide high
 quality maps for people to use.

Have you ever read the tile usage policy?

How many iDroid apps were blocked from using OSM's tile server and
told to brew their own tiles?

The OSM project doesn't have the resources to provide ready made maps
for everyone. If you want OSM to be able to do that, then start
working on a viable plan to get those resources.

- ---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

You're right – it needs to be a bit clearer that there's more than one map 
available, perhaps the right way to do this though is to make the layers box a 
bit more obvious, and give the various layers rather more user friendly names, 
so that people will experiment with a few of them.

Tom Davie
if (*ra4 != 0xffc78948) { return false; }

On 30 Dec 2011, at 14:51, Russ Nelson wrote:

 Frederik Ramm writes:
 For me, the idea of a user friendly map portal (with a nice brand name 
 and matching apps, with maps, routing, geocoding, aerial imagery, 
 streetview imagery and all) is not a *bad* idea, and if someone made 
 such a portal they should certainly be encouraged to use OSM for it. 
 
 When I worked for Cloudmade I found a nice book on map
 projections. They bought it for me because they were nice that
 way. Without going into any of the projections, lesson #1 from that
 book is: every map has its compromises. All of them. So, purely from a
 technical standpoint, we shouldn't be telling people that Mapnik is
 the be-all and end-all of map tile sets.
 
 IMHO, Mapnik is the tile set for OSM editors. As such, it should be
 more concerned about completeness than anything else. And as such, map
 editors will be happy to click on a http://mapnik.osm.org link on the
 front page of OSM. It's probably MUCH better for our community of
 users if we give them a list of links to maps, than if we show them
 just one map. Make it a bunch of screen shots of the same place with
 links.
 
 -- 
 --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
 Crynwr supports open source software
 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:02, Cartinus wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 On 12/30/2011 03:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 we shouldn't forget that the goal of the process is to provide high
 quality maps for people to use.
 
 Have you ever read the tile usage policy?
 
 How many iDroid apps were blocked from using OSM's tile server and
 told to brew their own tiles?
 
 The OSM project doesn't have the resources to provide ready made maps
 for everyone. If you want OSM to be able to do that, then start
 working on a viable plan to get those resources.

The tile usage policy that says roughly use this for your personal benefit, 
don't scrape them – iDroid apps don't get blocked because they let people look 
at the map, they get blocked because they create unnecessary load in some way 
(e.g. by scraping)

Tom Davie

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Cartinus

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 12/30/2011 04:06 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:02, Cartinus wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
 
 On 12/30/2011 03:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 we shouldn't forget that the goal of the process is to provide
 high quality maps for people to use.
 
 Have you ever read the tile usage policy?
 
 How many iDroid apps were blocked from using OSM's tile server
 and told to brew their own tiles?
 
 The OSM project doesn't have the resources to provide ready made
 maps for everyone. If you want OSM to be able to do that, then
 start working on a viable plan to get those resources.
 
 The tile usage policy that says roughly use this for your personal
 benefit, don't scrape them – iDroid apps don't get blocked because
 they let people look at the map, they get blocked because they
 create unnecessary load in some way (e.g. by scraping)
 
 Tom Davie

And if everyone is going to use our map, then we run into exactly the
same problem as when a single person is scraping.

You're still only demanding and don't have a plan, worse you actually
deny we need a plan.

- ---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier


On 30/12/2011 16:05, Thomas Davie wrote:
You're right – it needs to be a bit clearer that there's more than one 
map available


I believe that the side-scrolling banner at http://openstreetmap.de does 
it quite well.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:11, Cartinus wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 
 On 12/30/2011 04:06 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:02, Cartinus wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
 
 On 12/30/2011 03:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote:
 we shouldn't forget that the goal of the process is to provide
 high quality maps for people to use.
 
 Have you ever read the tile usage policy?
 
 How many iDroid apps were blocked from using OSM's tile server
 and told to brew their own tiles?
 
 The OSM project doesn't have the resources to provide ready made
 maps for everyone. If you want OSM to be able to do that, then
 start working on a viable plan to get those resources.
 
 The tile usage policy that says roughly use this for your personal
 benefit, don't scrape them – iDroid apps don't get blocked because
 they let people look at the map, they get blocked because they
 create unnecessary load in some way (e.g. by scraping)
 
 Tom Davie
 
 And if everyone is going to use our map, then we run into exactly the
 same problem as when a single person is scraping.
 
 You're still only demanding and don't have a plan, worse you actually
 deny we need a plan.

The problem with this being that what you're suggesting comes much further down 
the line.  The whole world using and caring about open street map is rather a 
nice problem to have is it not?

Tom Davie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:16, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

 On 30/12/2011 16:05, Thomas Davie wrote:
 You're right – it needs to be a bit clearer that there's more than one map 
 available
 
 I believe that the side-scrolling banner at http://openstreetmap.de does it 
 quite well.

I disagree – it's poor UI – it takes more clicks for a user to get to what they 
care about – the map.  Instead, we should simply have something similar to what 
google maps had at the top of the map – a series of buttons that let you select 
the style you want to view it in.

Then oh no, there's no satellite view turns into oh wow, there's loads of 
views that are more useful than just trees from above.

Tom Davie

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Hi,

On 12/30/11 15:37, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

Let's remember that Frederik believes that not everyone should be a
map contributor, that there's value in a high bar for contribution.


I thought that this thread was about being more consumer friendly in 
terms of providing ready-made maps, not in terms of soliciting edits.


Both are orthogonal. You could have a consumer friendly ready-made maps 
department and a high bar to editing at the same time; and you could 
have it the other way round. This thread is wide-spread already, and the 
argument about whom we should attract as editors and why is different 
from how we should represent ourselves. I cannot see why you would bring 
it up here, other than try to discredit my position?


In fact, many of those arguing for OSM becoming a nice map portal 
haven't even touched the subject of editing in their argument.



This reminds me a lot of the early Debian arguments:   Linux can't be
for the masses turned into I like compiling my own kernel and we
should have a high bar for contribution.

Fast forward five years, and I'm using Ubuntu.


Me too. But let's not kid ourselves: Ubuntu is the nice packaging of 
data/software provided by others. This is of course an 
oversimplification but by and large, Ubuntu is a very good example of a 
project that has added pretty packaging, user friendliness, and a help 
desk to things that have been there before.


If you install software on Ubuntu and it doesn't work and you are clever 
enough to provide a patch, then that patch will usually get through to 
the upstream software. You don't use Ubuntu *instead* of free software; 
you use the Ubuntu packaging. Free software has not been made obsolete 
by Ubuntu (even Debian stuff is re-used in Ubuntu).


And this is a good way to work - someone has seen that the making of the 
software and the consumer side are different, and need different 
specialists, even different projects.



I agree wholeheartedly with the view that OSM should be providing
maps. I think as long as we continue to cling to this idea that we
want third parties to make the maps, then we limit the project's
viability, its success and its overall accuracy.


I think this discussion has gone a little out of hand and maybe it 
should be repeated in another form, at another time.


First of all, one would have to define the exact difference between OSM 
is providing maps and another project is providing maps. Why exactly 
would OSM have to provide maps; is it because we think we would gain 
something from it - more visibility, more sponsors perhaps? And if so, 
would that advantage not be nullified by the resources that offering 
those maps consumes, and would it not be a better organisational 
structure overall if there were two separate entities? Even if we all 
agreed that someone should do X, and even if we had people standing by 
willing to do the work and even if we had sponsors standing by willing 
to pay the money, would it be ideal for OSM/OSMF to do X?


Secondly, and this touches on something from my looking forward post a 
few days ago, we have always made it clear that there are no official 
tags and no official list and no promise that anything gets rendered 
anywhere. This has many advantages, decoupling editing from rendering, 
and brings many freedoms, but if we were to push that one true map or 
maybe these ten true maps and try to be the map portal for everyone 
then that would be the end of saying well the Mapnik map is just a 
showcase and you cannot expect us to render everything. We would 
clearly make a much stronger bond between editing and rendering; fewer 
and fewer people would be willing to map things that are not on our main 
map(s), and we'd be pushing specialist maps to the sidelines. Let's not 
kid ourselves: Competing with Google Maps *will* make us more like 
Google Maps.



I hope strongly that the view will change, that the OSMF board will
reflect this view. I've seen a slight shift already in the time I've
been with the project. There's far more room for discussion on the
point than there was just a few years ago, but I'm also worried that
the strong beliefs of respected core project members like Frederik
have driven away those who care about the project, but don't share the
same views.


If I may paraphrase: Sadly, there are some fossils like Fred who are 
trying to chase away well-meaning people who share his passion for OSM 
but have different views. Luckily, these fossils are losing influence 
and things will become better.


The question is: How much of a fossil do you have to be? If there's 
someone who cares deeply about OSM but his view is that OSM should place 
paid advertising on its map - would it be too bad if that person were to 
be driven away by (borrowing from Kai's posting) a hostile 
environment? If there's someone who cares deeply for OSM but believes 
that community is irrelevant and we can just import Open Government data 
from around the world -

Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

 First of all, one would have to define the exact difference between OSM is 
 providing maps and another project is providing maps. Why exactly would 
 OSM have to provide maps;

Perhaps because that's the original, and stated purpose of the project – to 
make open maps.

As I've said many times – a database of map data is a *really* useful thing, 
it's probably the single most important contribution OSM can make, but 
ultimately, the *point* of the project is to make maps.

Pretty much everything you say is based on the premise that the point of the 
project is to make an enormous collection of map data, and damn actually being 
able to use it.  This premise is false.

Tom Davie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree wholeheartedly with the view that OSM should be providing
 maps. I think as long as we continue to cling to this idea that we
 want third parties to make the maps, then we limit the project's
 viability, its success and its overall accuracy.

I've allready express my own opinion, but i do not really understand the
point.

OSM hosted one rendering on its own server (using mapnik software)... Do
you want OSM to provide other maps (with different rendering) ?

I assume that what you want is OSM to provide a service without limit
for other to use their tile server as base ?

I feel very unconfortable with this option. Managing a tile server has a
cost (OSMF handle it now) and this cost goes higher has many user use
it. We see actual limitation this summer (limited bandwidth).
So their is here 2 options :

1. providing a free service open to everyone with no limits (google
competitor to summurize) that will be adapt to demand (more power, more
RAM...) so more cost every user use it.
To handle cost there is 2 options : keep the service free (more
donation, more money from ?)or made the service commercial (big users
pay, this is what google is providing). This will require adding an API
key (like google, bing or cloudmade).

2. providing a basic service for small users (as it's now) and limit big
usage without providing an laternative and let commercial compagny
(cloudmade or openstreetmap has start this) providing services for big
users.

Note that option 1 has a terrible issue : been a competitor to
commercial compagny that would do business with OSM data...

My opinion is that OSM should provide a basic service (as now) without
commercial issue (option 2). Big users should build their own tile
servers or buy this service from commercial compagny : it's not OSM
business (OSM is not in business).

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/


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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


if (*ra4 != 0xffc78948) { return false; }

On 30 Dec 2011, at 15:57, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote:

 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I agree wholeheartedly with the view that OSM should be providing
 maps. I think as long as we continue to cling to this idea that we
 want third parties to make the maps, then we limit the project's
 viability, its success and its overall accuracy.
 
 I've allready express my own opinion, but i do not really understand the
 point.
 
 OSM hosted one rendering on its own server (using mapnik software)... Do
 you want OSM to provide other maps (with different rendering) ?

Sure – and we already do, e.g. OpenCycleMap the transport map, the osmarenderer 
layer, etc.

 I assume that what you want is OSM to provide a service without limit
 for other to use their tile server as base ?

Not at all – though I can imagine that we could make some cash by offering to 
serve tiles to people if they pay for our hardware/bandwidth, plus a bit.  Ofc, 
this requires quite a major investment in people to run it, so it's probably 
not immediately possible right now.

 I feel very unconfortable with this option. Managing a tile server has a
 cost (OSMF handle it now) and this cost goes higher has many user use
 it. We see actual limitation this summer (limited bandwidth).

I agree, providing unlimited tile data to unlimited numbers of people, for free 
is clearly not a reasonable option.  The status quo works pretty well though.

 So their is here 2 options :
 
 1. providing a free service open to everyone with no limits (google
 competitor to summurize) that will be adapt to demand (more power, more
 RAM...) so more cost every user use it.
 To handle cost there is 2 options : keep the service free (more
 donation, more money from ?)or made the service commercial (big users
 pay, this is what google is providing). This will require adding an API
 key (like google, bing or cloudmade).
 
 2. providing a basic service for small users (as it's now) and limit big
 usage without providing an laternative and let commercial compagny
 (cloudmade or openstreetmap has start this) providing services for big
 users.
 
 Note that option 1 has a terrible issue : been a competitor to
 commercial compagny that would do business with OSM data...
Is that a terrible issue?  If a company is offering OSM with no added value on 
top of it, why do we care about competing with them?  If they're doing a better 
job than us, and make it financially unviable for us to do it, then all the 
better – we can stop worrying about this problem.

 My opinion is that OSM should provide a basic service (as now) without
 commercial issue (option 2). Big users should build their own tile
 servers or buy this service from commercial compagny : it's not OSM
 business (OSM is not in business).
There's no reason why it can't be run like one though – charities and 
philanthropic organisations usually are for one very good reason – it gives 
them sustainability.

Note – I have no problem with carrying on with 2 either for now, or 
indefinitely.  What I don't think is a good option though is option 3 that some 
people seem to be kicking about – that is, drop all rendered output to users or 
people considering what they can do with OSM, and instead concentrate on just 
having a huge database.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Hi,

On 12/30/11 16:55, Thomas Davie wrote:

Perhaps because that's the original, and stated purpose of the
project – to make open maps.


When I started using OSM, the project wasn't making maps; it was making 
files that you could download and feed into a renderer and then you 
could see a map.


I probably saw the potential back then; I saw that you could make maps 
right there on your computer, and quite possibly I also thought that one 
could make a slippy map - but it never occurred to me that what I was 
seeing then was somehow *not* the original purpose. A good 5000 people 
who joined OSM before me must have seen the same thing.



Pretty much everything you say is based on the premise that the point
of the project is to make an enormous collection of map data, and
damn actually being able to use it.  This premise is false.


Where did you get that idea about the original, and stated purpose 
being to make open maps? From the Wiki history, I can see that on 26 
May 2005, Steve Coast added this sentence as the very first sentence on 
our main page:


OpenStreetMap is a project aimed squarely at providing free geographic 
data such as street maps to anyone who wants them.


That was 6.5 years ago, OSM must have had about 500 members back then. I 
only joined a year later, when that sentence was still up on the Wiki, 
and today, the sentence has only slightly changed:


OpenStreetMap creates and provides free geographic data such as street 
maps to anyone who wants them.


As I said in another message, SWG are debating core values etc., and 
before we know it that sentence may read OpenStreetMap offers map tile 
downloads free of charge or something, but most people who have joined 
the project in the last 6.5 years will probably have read in the very 
first sentence that OSM says about itself: OpenStreetMap creates free 
geographic data.


If that is indeed false then where can I complain about having been 
misled for so long? ;)


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 16:15, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 12/30/11 16:55, Thomas Davie wrote:
 Perhaps because that's the original, and stated purpose of the
 project – to make open maps.
 
 When I started using OSM, the project wasn't making maps; it was making files 
 that you could download and feed into a renderer and then you could see a map.
 
 I probably saw the potential back then; I saw that you could make maps right 
 there on your computer, and quite possibly I also thought that one could make 
 a slippy map - but it never occurred to me that what I was seeing then was 
 somehow *not* the original purpose. A good 5000 people who joined OSM before 
 me must have seen the same thing.

Everything has to start somewhere.  Just because the best that it was possible 
to do back then was to download and render, doesn't mean that it's the best we 
can do now.

 Pretty much everything you say is based on the premise that the point
 of the project is to make an enormous collection of map data, and
 damn actually being able to use it.  This premise is false.
 
 Where did you get that idea about the original, and stated purpose being to 
 make open maps? From the Wiki history, I can see that on 26 May 2005, Steve 
 Coast added this sentence as the very first sentence on our main page:
 
 OpenStreetMap is a project aimed squarely at providing free geographic data 
 such as street maps to anyone who wants them.
Such as Street Maps ;)

 That was 6.5 years ago, OSM must have had about 500 members back then. I only 
 joined a year later, when that sentence was still up on the Wiki, and today, 
 the sentence has only slightly changed:
 
 OpenStreetMap creates and provides free geographic data such as street maps 
 to anyone who wants them.
Keeping the nice important bit there.

 As I said in another message, SWG are debating core values etc., and before 
 we know it that sentence may read OpenStreetMap offers map tile downloads 
 free of charge or something, but most people who have joined the project in 
 the last 6.5 years will probably have read in the very first sentence that 
 OSM says about itself: OpenStreetMap creates free geographic data.
 
 If that is indeed false then where can I complain about having been misled 
 for so long? ;)

You've not been misled, you've misread.

Tom Davie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Tobias Knerr


Thomas Davie wrote:


I believe that the side-scrolling banner at http://openstreetmap.de
does it quite well.


I disagree – it's poor UI – it takes more clicks for a user to get to
what they care about – the map.


The banner is there to let the user discover in what ways OSM can be 
useful, and I think that it is designed well for that purpose.


As soon as the user the user finds an OSM-based app he likes, he should 
install it on his phone. As soon as he finds an web-based routing 
service he likes, he should bookmark it. And so on.


The user is *not* expected to go through openstreetmap.de every time he 
wants to use OSM-based products.



Instead, we should simply have something
similar to what google maps had at the top of the map – a series of
buttons that let you select the style you want to view it in.


And how will this let the user find out that there is an iPhone app for 
planning outdoor running tracks based on OSM? That they can turn their 
Android tablets into car navigation systems powered by OSM? That there 
is an educational 3D globe for their desktop? That there is an entire 
map portal dedicated to wheelchair accessibility?


We should actively advertise the many third-party products made from 
OSM, many of which go far beyond putting a map into your browser. We 
should work hard on the database that makes them all possible. But we 
don't have to build and offer these products ourselves.


Tobias

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

 
 Instead, we should simply have something
 similar to what google maps had at the top of the map – a series of
 buttons that let you select the style you want to view it in.
 
 And how will this let the user find out that there is an iPhone app for 
 planning outdoor running tracks based on OSM? That they can turn their 
 Android tablets into car navigation systems powered by OSM? That there is an 
 educational 3D globe for their desktop? That there is an entire map portal 
 dedicated to wheelchair accessibility?
 
 We should actively advertise the many third-party products made from OSM, 
 many of which go far beyond putting a map into your browser. We should work 
 hard on the database that makes them all possible. But we don't have to build 
 and offer these products ourselves.

We should – but not directly on the front page.  The single biggest mistake 
I've seen any open source project make is to have a web page which is all links 
to other stuff.  I don't want on my first visit to open street map to be 
confronted with a wall of text that I'll read the first paragraph of and then 
close my browser... Instead, I want to see immediately oh hay, this is a 
project that creates maps, oh look, there's one that shows all the busses in my 
city, oh cool, there's one for wheelchair accessibility, wow, they show paths 
on some of their maps... and *then* go I wonder, could I get this really 
awesome cool thing on my iPhone.

Tom Davie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Richard Weait

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote:
 First of all, one would have to define the exact difference between OSM is 
 providing maps and another project is providing maps. Why exactly would 
 OSM have to provide maps;

 Perhaps because that's the original, and stated purpose of the project – to 
 make open maps.

 As I've said many times – a database of map data is a *really* useful thing, 
 it's probably the single most important contribution OSM can make, but 
 ultimately, the *point* of the project is to make maps.

 Pretty much everything you say is based on the premise that the point of the 
 project is to make an enormous collection of map data, and damn actually 
 being able to use it.  This premise is false.

The point of a project to create a really good text editor is to
provide a tool for editing text.  Nobody expects vim or emacs to
provide you with the finished document when you download vim or emacs.
 Our situation in OSM is not exactly the same as a text editor.  The
OSM data base is a great resource.  The software stack we use is a
collection of great tools.  We, as a community, have assembled reams
of documentation and examples.  And we count among our project dozens
of people ready and able to answer questions for motivated newcomers,
via help.osm.org, irc and other channels.

Damn being able to actually use it rings a bit hollow.

The key to OSMs success is to continually improve the data.  That
needs people who edit (and people who write code for editors, maintain
and improve servers, document and test code, etc.)

Attracting more users is nice, but much less important than attracting
more editors.  Here's why: as we attract more editors and the data
continues to improve, we won't be able to keep users away.  We already
see that with tile scrapers.  We can't handle the load so we have to
block them.  Instead we have to (really, we HAVE TO) point them
towards the methods of consuming OSM resources responsibly.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

On 30 Dec 2011, at 16:36, Richard Weait wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote:
 First of all, one would have to define the exact difference between OSM is 
 providing maps and another project is providing maps. Why exactly would 
 OSM have to provide maps;
 
 Perhaps because that's the original, and stated purpose of the project – to 
 make open maps.
 
 As I've said many times – a database of map data is a *really* useful thing, 
 it's probably the single most important contribution OSM can make, but 
 ultimately, the *point* of the project is to make maps.
 
 Pretty much everything you say is based on the premise that the point of the 
 project is to make an enormous collection of map data, and damn actually 
 being able to use it.  This premise is false.
 
 The point of a project to create a really good text editor is to
 provide a tool for editing text.  Nobody expects vim or emacs to
 provide you with the finished document when you download vim or emacs.
Right, just like we don't provide where to go for a walk, only the map of the 
place you could go for a walk.

 Our situation in OSM is not exactly the same as a text editor.
Agreed.

Tom Davie
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Am 30.12.2011 17:22, schrieb Thomas Davie:

You've not been misled, you've misread.

I don't think he has.

I think, we have to find a way in between.
I already mentioned my vision to provide a VIEW on the DATA, that the 
user can define himself.


In that vision, OSM is not about maps. OSM is about the data, and the 
user (not necessarily mapper) would add the map on top - in providing 
his own stylesheet.


Again: that's a vision, and probably somebody or even I myself would try 
to implement that: to change a front page of the project to a view of 
map data - which can be styles by the user on demand.


Nevertheless: The good ideas don't come from users who add two points 
(my home and my work) and then repeatingly view the nice map. The 
good ideas and benefits for the project come from people who do 
something with the data: Extending the data itself (mapping) or using 
the data in a new fashion, like many projects show: quizzes generated 
from osm data, routing applications, new styled maps and many more.
Of course these ideas support the project - but I think, they do it the 
same way like LibreOffice and Mozilla support ubuntu or debian - without 
being part of the distributor or distribution project.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Serge Wroclawski

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,


 On 12/30/11 15:37, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

 Let's remember that Frederik believes that not everyone should be a
 map contributor, that there's value in a high bar for contribution.


 I thought that this thread was about being more consumer friendly in terms
 of providing ready-made maps, not in terms of soliciting edits.

 Both are orthogonal. You could have a consumer friendly ready-made maps
 department and a high bar to editing at the same time; and you could have it
 the other way round.

They're not orthogonal. The core question is What is the project's
goals? and based on what you've said in the past, you want a small
project generally. Small number of editors, small OSMF, etc.

I want lots of editors, and I want OpenStreetMap to be about maps, ie
people go to OSM for their catrographic needs.

 I cannot see why you would bring it up here,
 other than try to discredit my position?

it represents your view on the project as a whole. I have deep respect
for you, we just disagree on some issues.

 In fact, many of those arguing for OSM becoming a nice map portal haven't
 even touched the subject of editing in their argument.

True. I've been negligent in my efforts to do this. I should work on
editing more. I'm on vacation at the moment but when I get home, I
promise to have something, *something* to show for my efforts before
Valentine's Day. If not, I will work out some suitable amends.




 This reminds me a lot of the early Debian arguments:   Linux can't be
 for the masses turned into I like compiling my own kernel and we
 should have a high bar for contribution.

 Fast forward five years, and I'm using Ubuntu.

Let me clarify a bit that these aren't bad people saying stuff like I
like compiling my own kernel. I have a friend whose the maintainer of
some core packages (coreutils and gnu utils), and these are the kinds
of things he said.

Good people who do good things, good friends who I drink with, but we
disagree on some things.

 Me too. But let's not kid ourselves: Ubuntu is the nice packaging of
 data/software provided by others. This is of course an oversimplification
 but by and large, Ubuntu is a very good example of a project that has added
 pretty packaging, user friendliness, and a help desk to things that have
 been there before.

That's true, but I think the Wikipedia analogy is also darn good. OSM
should be the Wikipedia of maps. That's my view.

 First of all, one would have to define the exact difference between OSM is
 providing maps and another project is providing maps. Why exactly would
 OSM have to provide maps; is it because we think we would gain something
 from it - more visibility, more sponsors perhaps?

Excellent question! The reason I think OSM should be providing the
maps is that OSM is the one making them. It's about the full circle of
display and creation. It's also about community. OSM is not about some
random collection of facts, but about the work of thousands. I think
it's cool that other project use OSM data, but I like the idea that
we stay a cohesive community, able to work out issues as a group.

 And if so, would that
 advantage not be nullified by the resources that offering those maps
 consumes, and would it not be a better organisational structure overall if
 there were two separate entities? Even if we all agreed that someone should
 do X, and even if we had people standing by willing to do the work and even
 if we had sponsors standing by willing to pay the money, would it be ideal
 for OSM/OSMF to do X?

I think a stronger OSMF, that actively fund raised to the right
parties, would reduce these resource concerns.

I know the current model, though, and I think it's sub-optimal.

 Secondly, and this touches on something from my looking forward post a few
 days ago, we have always made it clear that there are no official tags and
 no official list and no promise that anything gets rendered anywhere. This
 has many advantages, decoupling editing from rendering, and brings many
 freedoms, but if we were to push that one true map or maybe these ten
 true maps and try to be the map portal for everyone then that would be the
 end of saying well the Mapnik map is just a showcase and you cannot expect
 us to render everything. We would clearly make a much stronger bond between
 editing and rendering; fewer and fewer people would be willing to map things
 that are not on our main map(s), and we'd be pushing specialist maps to the
 sidelines. Let's not kid ourselves: Competing with Google Maps *will* make
 us more like Google Maps.

I don't think that's a terrible thing. If the *only* differentiator
was that we're Free and they're not- that would be enough for me.

 I hope strongly that the view will change, that the OSMF board will
 reflect this view. I've seen a slight shift already in the time I've
 been with the project. There's far more room for discussion on the
 point than

Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Am 30.12.2011 17:22, schrieb Thomas Davie:

You've not been misled, you've misread.

I don't think he has.

I think, we have to find a way in between.
I already mentioned my vision to provide a VIEW on the DATA, that the 
user can define himself.


In that vision, OSM is not about maps. OSM is about the data, and the 
user (not necessarily mapper) would add the map on top - in providing 
his own stylesheet.


Again: that's a vision, and probably somebody or even I myself would try 
to implement that: to change a front page of the project to a view of 
map data - which can be styles by the user on demand.


Nevertheless: The good ideas don't come from users who add two points 
(my home and my work) and then repeatingly view the nice map. The 
good ideas and benefits for the project come from people who do 
something with the data: Extending the data itself (mapping) or using 
the data in a new fashion, like many projects show: quizzes generated 
from osm data, routing applications, new styled maps and many more.
Of course these ideas support the project - but I think, they do it the 
same way like LibreOffice and Mozilla support ubuntu or debian - without 
being part of the distributor or distribution project.


OSM is nothing (useful for the average user) without maps - that's true.
Linux is nothing (useful for the average user) without software.

So what? OSM can be the backend for great distributions, great software 
and nice maps.


regards
Peter

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[OSM-talk] What can we do to get a tile.openstreetmap.org contributable CDN within a month?

2011-12-30 Thread Stefan de Konink

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

The basic outline;

- - People seem to love using tile.openstreetmap.org for any of their apps
- - Apps get blocked for various reasons, contributing back is difficult
- - OpenStreetMap wants to be the leading provider of such data


I would propose a small working group to outline what should happen to
facilitate the creation of a Content Delivery Network (CDN) serving
the basic tiles, and allow easy contribution this network. This should
produce a prototype of at least 3 servers.


Questions such as: quality, update frequency, traffic shaping,
geographical balancing and high availability could be part of this
working group.


I would like to invite anyone to participate, especially:
 - people that already have their own tileservers running, and/or
   are currently balancing traffic;
 - business folks: what could be a motivation and what can be a
   cutback in for example attribution,
 - users of for example openlayers, etc. what kind of caching can
   be applied, and if this should be configurable client side


Participation can announced in private or on list.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] What can we do to get a tile.openstreetmap.org contributable CDN within a month?

2011-12-30 Thread Mike Dupont

I have mentioned the fact many times that archive.org has allowed for
tile hosting,
i...@archive.org is the address for asking permission.
mike

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512

 The basic outline;

 - - People seem to love using tile.openstreetmap.org for any of their apps
 - - Apps get blocked for various reasons, contributing back is difficult
 - - OpenStreetMap wants to be the leading provider of such data


 I would propose a small working group to outline what should happen to
 facilitate the creation of a Content Delivery Network (CDN) serving
 the basic tiles, and allow easy contribution this network. This should
 produce a prototype of at least 3 servers.


 Questions such as: quality, update frequency, traffic shaping,
 geographical balancing and high availability could be part of this
 working group.


 I would like to invite anyone to participate, especially:
  - people that already have their own tileservers running, and/or
   are currently balancing traffic;
  - business folks: what could be a motivation and what can be a
   cutback in for example attribution,
  - users of for example openlayers, etc. what kind of caching can
   be applied, and if this should be configurable client side


 Participation can announced in private or on list.


 Stefan
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

 iEYEAREKAAYFAk798H0ACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn2I9ACeJV+vFfBvI4CaTET0BqjuuX1s
 G78AnRv6+Qh7MkIrN1DQ6fQ34p1j0uuS
 =+WNS
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] What can we do to get a tile.openstreetmap.org contributable CDN within a month?

2011-12-30 Thread Stefan de Konink

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

I have just summerized the e-mail by Mike, and created a wiki page the
follow up the status:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TileCDN


Op 30-12-11 18:23, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) schreef:
 I would love to monitor such discussion and contribute if I think
 I have something to offer.  Will such discussion be here on the 
 [OSM-dev} or elsewhere?

I don't want to induce a lot of offtopic and negatively. The 30 days
in the subject is something that I would like to realise, not talk about.


 Theoretically the CoralCDN could be used for distributing OSM
 tiles by simply suffixing the domain with .nyud.net, but I have
 not tried this yet.  There would be little to no intelligence
 brought to bear on how long individual tiles would be cached vs
 flushed and/or whether mixed-revision tiles would be present in
 and delivered from the cache, not to mention that I don't think
 the CoralCDN passes through the original User-Agent either.

I do not have yet investigated what the options are of CoralCDN, but
the main problem is to get the *alternative used*. I guess switching
to a system that is partly in our own hands results in a higher
quality, thus we must have ability to invalidate data quickly.

If that is covered in CoralCDN the only thing remaining is finding a
good solution for the 'hostname' issue.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say


Serge,


They're not orthogonal. The core question is What is the project's
goals? and based on what you've said in the past, you want a small
project generally. Small number of editors, small OSMF, etc.


I would be absolutely thrilled to have, say, Google throw away their 
data and say we'll be using OSM from now on. I wouldn't say that 
should be our #1 ambition but it would surely be a nice thing.


One would hope that while this would send more people our way for 
editing, the first level support will remain with Google in such a 
scenario, as will the considerable housekeeping effort of actually 
getting all those tiles to those who want them.


It is mainly these things I fear, and for which I think we are not well 
equipped - large scale operations dealing with large numbers of 
consumer type users.


Doing that would, I believe, require a transformation of OSMF that goes 
far beyond let's put a little flattr button here any maybe we get 
enough money for an extra tile server. We're talking long-term 
financial planning, hiring staff, and hiring more staff to raise funds 
to pay for them all. We're talking continuous fundraising action and all 
that. I am not sure if those advocating big OSM(F) are clear on that. 
You'd look at tha balance sheets and say Ah, obviously 99% of what this 
OSMF does is producing map tiles and distributing/selling them. And they 
seem to be doing this little community thing on the side. - and at the 
same time, 99% of all work in the OSMF board would go towards how to 
make tile serving better and the web portal nicer, and 1% would be spent 
on this little community thing on the side.


It may be an irrational fear (they mostly are). But I would feel much 
better if someone else would hire staff, acquire funds, buy servers, 
render tiles, offset the risks and all that - someone without direct 
influence on OSM. That way, OSMF would not be tainted by such operations 
and could concentrate on what we need them to do, rather than on things 
that others can do just as well.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Best way to show individual shops within a shopping complex?

2011-12-30 Thread Richard Weait

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 Hi

 Does anyone have any completed examples of how best to map/tag a
 shopping complex/mall where it's at the level of naming individual shops?

I didn't add dividing walls, but did add walkways and shops by
dead-reckoning.  This is a single level shopping mall,

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/68282457

A very determined Toronto mapper has added shops in the multi-level
Eaton Centre, shops and walkways are marked with level=

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4321312

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say

2011-12-30 Thread Michal Migurski

On Dec 30, 2011, at 7:42 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 In fact, many of those arguing for OSM becoming a nice map portal haven't 
 even touched the subject of editing in their argument.
 
 
 ...
 
 Secondly, and this touches on something from my looking forward post a few 
 days ago, we have always made it clear that there are no official tags and no 
 official list and no promise that anything gets rendered anywhere. This has 
 many advantages, decoupling editing from rendering, and brings many freedoms, 
 but if we were to push that one true map or maybe these ten true maps and 
 try to be the map portal for everyone then that would be the end of saying 
 well the Mapnik map is just a showcase and you cannot expect us to render 
 everything. We would clearly make a much stronger bond between editing and 
 rendering; fewer and fewer people would be willing to map things that are not 
 on our main map(s), and we'd be pushing specialist maps to the sidelines. 
 Let's not kid ourselves: Competing with Google Maps *will* make us more like 
 Google Maps.

For what it's worth, I didn't really start editing until the Mapnik loop closed 
and I could see my edits on the same day I made them. This was a huge 
difference for me, and a step up from making an edit, waiting several days for 
it to show up, and then making another one. The main Mapnik layer is one of 
the only products OSM makes that's visible to regular humans, and even though 
someone like me *could* stay up-to-the-minute with the replication diffs it's 
more often the case that it doesn't happen.

Serge's mention of closing the circle is critical, because it keeps the promise 
inherent in the name Open Street Map - somewhere, somehow, people should be 
able to see a decent map, and it would be best if it were a reliable enough 
resource to be generally usable by the world at large.

At the same time, the current home page is 99% map and 1% anything else, so 
we're *already* implicitly competing with GMaps through our homepage design. 
Here's my opinion of what the front page should look like, based on a pastiche 
of elements pulled from various OSM sites including .de, the wiki, and the 
current page:

http://mike.teczno.com/img/osm-homepage-sketch.jpg

First, there's still a map across the top of the page, but now it's smaller. 
It's kept for two primary reasons: visitors must be able to see that ultimately 
all the work leads to a usable map, and six years of permalinks to specific 
locations should not be broken. The overall tab layout across the top (with the 
Edit tab) stays, but I expect that each tab might lead to a second page with a 
taller, more page-hogging map on it for roomy editing.

The space below the map is there for the project to explain itself. We should 
quibble about the choice of sections (I've borrowed these wholesale from .de) 
but this area is in place to say something about what OSM is *for*: it's 
something you can join, there's data you can use, etc.

In the bottom-right corner is the wiki Image Of The Week, which is so often the 
home of solid gold output from the OSM community, whether it's new renders or 
photos of mappers. This part will change, and will reinforce the dynamic nature 
of the project. There will be cool and weird pictures there.

In the sidebar, I've just copied some stuff from the wiki. Honestly, I don't 
know what should go here—I never pay attention to sidebars on websites, but 
presumably if someone is absolutely scratching their head then being able to 
scan the page for the word Help or Blog will get them out of a jam.

Back to the map:

The OL layers menu is replaced with an old-Gmaps-style set of buttons, because 
if you don't know OpenLayers how will you know that the Blue Plus will give you 
something interesting? Buttons encourage pushing, which addresses the need to 
show a variety of cartographic outputs beyond the default Mapnik layer. The 
current choice of layers is good: Mapnik is what editors need to see what 
they are doing, Cycle and Transport both show what it means to highlight 
entirely different sets of tags, and MapQuest shows that third parties with 
recognizable names should get involved. I can't think of a rationale for 
keeping Osmarender in the list.

Data is a special case - I think it should be implemented in the form of a 
combined thinline raster layer and a backing data layer driven by a data format 
similar to Mapnik's new UTF Grid feature to support clicking on features. If we 
do this smartly, then we can simultaneously solve clickable POI's which is one 
of the OSMF's list of Top Ten tasks that they want handled.


 I believe SWG are having a discussion about core values at the moment. 
 Suffice it to say: There are core values of this project, and if you don't 
 share them than you can care for OSM as much as you want, you're in the wrong 
 project. Now what exactly these core values or important goals are, is open 
 to discussion. *My* vision is that by

Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Het IJ leeggepompt!

2011-12-30 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Het is weer flink mis...

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.37667lon=4.93481zoom=15layers=M

gr,
floris

2011/12/27 Willem Sonke willemso...@planet.nl:
 Het commentaar bij deze changeset is /MP repairs (OSMI)/. De OSM Inspector
 [1] geeft in deze regio inderdaad multipolygoonfouten, onder meer /touching
 inner rings/ en /invalid geometry/.
 Deze gebruiker heeft overigens ook op andere plaatsen dergelijke
 veranderingen gedaan, waaronder in Den Haag, maar daar zie ik zo snel geen
 problemen op de kaart.

 Willem Sonke

 [1]
 http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=multipolygonlon=4.83140lat=52.41107zoom=13overlays=invalid_geometry_hull,duplicate_ways,intersections,intersection_lines,ring_not_closed_hull,ring_not_closed,unconnected_end_nodes,touching_inner_rings_hull,touching_inner_rings,role_mismatch_hull,role_mismatch,duplicate_tags_hull,duplicate_tags,multipolygons_type_is_boundary,type_is_boundary,ways,role_markers,way_end_nodes,way_nodes


 On 27-12-11 15:30, Piet Smits wrote:

 Iemand heeft op 22 december deze way uit de relatie 1704  (die het zelfde
 lijkt als relatie Het IJ) gehaald. Wellicht had het daar iets mee te maken:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1704/history

 Bij de monding van de Ertshaven zie (of zag) je hetzelfde.

 grtz,
 Piet



 Op 27-12-2011 15:15, Floris Looijesteijn schreef:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/67559262

 Ja, Willem1, die wijziging is te zien.
 Op dit moment wordt ie ook weer goed gerenderd.

 Renderbugje dus denk ik...

 Thanks all!

 Groet,
 Floris

 2011/12/27 Floris Looijesteijno...@floris.nu:

 Volgens mij is die historie niet actueel.
 De weg waar ik het in m'n andere mailtje over heb, heb ik net enorm
 aan lopen trekken maar die staat nog steeds op de vorige editor z'n
 naam.

 Groet,
 Floris

 2011/12/27 Maarten Deenmd...@xs4all.nl:

 On 2011-12-27 14:03, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:



 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.37914lon=4.92726zoom=15layers=M

 Wie heeft er zin om even te kijken wat er aan de hand is?


 Vreemd. Dat stukje IJ is sinds juli 2010 niet aangeraakt:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/67559262

 3dshapes:ggmodelk = 23
 name = Het IJ
 natural = water
 source = 3dShapes

 Lijkt ok. Ik kan in Potlatch alleen niet controleren of de way helemaal
 correct is (closed en continuous).

 Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Het IJ leeggepompt!

2011-12-30 Thread Frank Steggink

Ik hoop het nu opgelost te hebben:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changesets?bbox=4.90268%2C52.36723%2C4.97632%2C52.39065

Wat er precies aan de hand was: geen idee. Eerst dacht ik dat het komt
omdat er twee multipolygonen waren, dus ik heb er een (rel. nr. 1704:
komt nog uit de AND-import) verwijderd. Dat hielp niet. Later heb ik de
3 polygonen met de naam Het IJ gemerged, aangezien er verder geen
verschil hiertussen zit. Dat was nog niet voldoende, dus heb ik wat
edits in de omgeving gemaakt. Uiteindelijk kon het oostelijke deel van
de IJhaven pas gerenderd worden nadat ik twee eilandjes had toegevoegd
die ik op Bing zag.

Groeten,

Frank

On 30-12-2011 13:14, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:

Het is weer flink mis...

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.37667lon=4.93481zoom=15layers=M

gr,
floris

2011/12/27 Willem Sonkewillemso...@planet.nl:

Het commentaar bij deze changeset is /MP repairs (OSMI)/. De OSM Inspector
[1] geeft in deze regio inderdaad multipolygoonfouten, onder meer /touching
inner rings/ en /invalid geometry/.
Deze gebruiker heeft overigens ook op andere plaatsen dergelijke
veranderingen gedaan, waaronder in Den Haag, maar daar zie ik zo snel geen
problemen op de kaart.

Willem Sonke

[1]
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=multipolygonlon=4.83140lat=52.41107zoom=13overlays=invalid_geometry_hull,duplicate_ways,intersections,intersection_lines,ring_not_closed_hull,ring_not_closed,unconnected_end_nodes,touching_inner_rings_hull,touching_inner_rings,role_mismatch_hull,role_mismatch,duplicate_tags_hull,duplicate_tags,multipolygons_type_is_boundary,type_is_boundary,ways,role_markers,way_end_nodes,way_nodes

On 27-12-11 15:30, Piet Smits wrote:

Iemand heeft op 22 december deze way uit de relatie 1704 (die het zelfde
lijkt als relatie Het IJ) gehaald. Wellicht had het daar iets mee te maken:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1704/history

Bij de monding van de Ertshaven zie (of zag) je hetzelfde.

grtz,
Piet

Op 27-12-2011 15:15, Floris Looijesteijn schreef:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/67559262

Ja, Willem1, die wijziging is te zien.
Op dit moment wordt ie ook weer goed gerenderd.

Renderbugje dus denk ik...

Thanks all!

Groet,
Floris

2011/12/27 Floris Looijesteijno...@floris.nu:

Volgens mij is die historie niet actueel.
De weg waar ik het in m'n andere mailtje over heb, heb ik net enorm
aan lopen trekken maar die staat nog steeds op de vorige editor z'n
naam.

Groet,
Floris

2011/12/27 Maarten Deenmd...@xs4all.nl:

On 2011-12-27 14:03, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.37914lon=4.92726zoom=15layers=M

Wie heeft er zin om even te kijken wat er aan de hand is?

Vreemd. Dat stukje IJ is sinds juli 2010 niet aangeraakt:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/67559262

3dshapes:ggmodelk = 23
name = Het IJ
natural = water
source = 3dShapes

Lijkt ok. Ik kan in Potlatch alleen niet controleren of de way helemaal
correct is (closed en continuous).

Maarten

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Re: [Talk-de] Downloadprobleme Aerowest

2011-12-30 Thread Carsten Gerlach

Hallo,

Am Donnerstag, 29. Dezember 2011 schrieb Schorschi:
 hast du den Download auch heute oder gestern probiert?

Nein, ich habe den Hinweis ohne erneuten Test gegeben, Asche auf mein Haupt. 
:-). Am 22. hatte ich das Plugin-Problem festgestellt und da ging der Download 
auch noch mit der Plugin-freien Variante. Aber jetzt ist auch bei mir Ende.

Gruß, Carsten

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Re: [Talk-de] Fährlinien

2011-12-30 Thread Henning Scholland


Hi,
für ein gutes Routing ist es wichtig, dass die Fähre an das Straßennetz 
angeschlossen ist. Das dürfte aber auch so in der Realität aussehen, 
denn sonst kommen die ganzen Autos ja nicht auf die Fähre. Bei kleineren 
Personenfähren führt das letzte Stück meist über einen Pier.


Letztlich wird das ganze wohl nur über Relationen sinnvoll abgebildet 
werden können.


Ich würde eine idealisierte Linie zeichnen, ähnlich wie man sie von 
anderen Kartenwerken kennt. Die reale Route weicht ohnehin immer mal 
wieder ab. Mal gehts links an der Insel vorbei, mal rechts etc.


Henning


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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View

2011-12-30 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 07:27:57PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hallo,
 
ich habe im OSMI-Lizenzwechsel-View jetzt drei Regelaenderungen
 eingebaut:
 
 1. Ein ungetaggter Node, der von einem Ablehner erstellt und spaeter
 von einem Zustimmer bewegt wurde, war vorher rot und ist jetzt
 ueberhaupt nicht mehr eingefaerbt, weil man davon ausgehen kann, dass
 der urspruengliche Mapper kein Copyright an einer reinen
 Positionsangabe haben kann.

Da geht noch was nicht:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=wtfelon=8.31852lat=51.77051zoom=15overlays=overview,wtfe_point_clean,wtfe_line_clean,wtfe_point_harmless,wtfe_line_harmless,wtfe_point_modified,wtfe_line_modified_cp,wtfe_line_modified,wtfe_point_created,wtfe_line_created_cp,wtfe_line_created

Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder ausschliesslich
ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.

JOSM zeig 83% der Objekte mich als letzten bearbeiter.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de

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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View

2011-12-30 Thread Simon Poole



Flo, du bist adoptiert 

Siehe http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quick_History_Service

Ich nehme an, dass ist in deinem Sinne?

Simon

Am 30.12.2011 13:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 07:27:57PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hallo,

ich habe im OSMI-Lizenzwechsel-View jetzt drei Regelaenderungen
eingebaut:

1. Ein ungetaggter Node, der von einem Ablehner erstellt und spaeter
von einem Zustimmer bewegt wurde, war vorher rot und ist jetzt
ueberhaupt nicht mehr eingefaerbt, weil man davon ausgehen kann, dass
der urspruengliche Mapper kein Copyright an einer reinen
Positionsangabe haben kann.

Da geht noch was nicht:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=wtfelon=8.31852lat=51.77051zoom=15overlays=overview,wtfe_point_clean,wtfe_line_clean,wtfe_point_harmless,wtfe_line_harmless,wtfe_point_modified,wtfe_line_modified_cp,wtfe_line_modified,wtfe_point_created,wtfe_line_created_cp,wtfe_line_created

Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder ausschliesslich
ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.

JOSM zeig 83% der Objekte mich als letzten bearbeiter.

Flo



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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View


Hi Florian.
Dein User-Account wird aufgrund deines Statements, deine Beiträge seine 
PD (vgl. Wiki) in den Ausnahmelisten als okay eingestuft.


Der ODBL-View berücksichtigt dafür die Overrides, die unter [1] 
eingetragen sind, und da bist du - m.E. lizenzrechtlich zu Recht, dabei.


Gruß
Peter

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WTFE

Am 30.12.2011 13:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 07:27:57PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hallo,

ich habe im OSMI-Lizenzwechsel-View jetzt drei Regelaenderungen
eingebaut:

1. Ein ungetaggter Node, der von einem Ablehner erstellt und spaeter
von einem Zustimmer bewegt wurde, war vorher rot und ist jetzt
ueberhaupt nicht mehr eingefaerbt, weil man davon ausgehen kann, dass
der urspruengliche Mapper kein Copyright an einer reinen
Positionsangabe haben kann.

Da geht noch was nicht:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=wtfelon=8.31852lat=51.77051zoom=15overlays=overview,wtfe_point_clean,wtfe_line_clean,wtfe_point_harmless,wtfe_line_harmless,wtfe_point_modified,wtfe_line_modified_cp,wtfe_line_modified,wtfe_point_created,wtfe_line_created_cp,wtfe_line_created

Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder ausschliesslich
ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.

JOSM zeig 83% der Objekte mich als letzten bearbeiter.

Flo



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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View

2011-12-30 Thread Michael Kugelmann


Am 30.12.2011 13:25, schrieb Florian Lohoff:
Da geht noch was nicht: 

[...]
Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder 
ausschliesslich ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.

Aber unter
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Flohoff
erklärst Du explizit:
=
All my contributions to OpenStreetMap are released into the public 
domain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/public_domain. This applies worldwide.

=
Damit dürf(t)en die Daten m.E. nach OBDL übernommen werden...

On die Systeme das alles korrekt verarbeiten kann ich allerdings jetzt 
nichts sagen.



Grüße,
Michael.

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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View


Hallo,

On 12/30/11 13:25, Florian Lohoff wrote:

Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder ausschliesslich
ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.


Der OSMI hat eine Override-Tabelle, in der bestimmte User und 
bestimmte Changesets gelistet sind, deren Daten *trotz* ihrer fehlenden 
Zustimmung uebernommen werden koennen, weil es sich z.B. um 
Datenimporte, automatische Aenderungen, oder um Beitraege von Usern 
handelt, die oeffentlich erklaert haben, dass ihre Daten PD sind.


Diese Tabelle wird hier gepflegt:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WTFE

Damit ich nicht selbst den Stress habe, zu entscheiden, wessen Edits da 
reinkommen und wessen nicht, erwarte ich, dass andere User sich die 
Arbeit machen, das zu pruefen und auch mit ihrem Namen und ggf. ihrer 
Handarbeit dafuer zu stehen, wenn sie einen Eintrag machen.


Freimut Kahrs hat Dich in diese Override-Tabelle eingetragen, 
vermutlich, weil Du auf Deiner Wiki-Userseite das PD-Template gesetzt 
hast. Fuer den OSMI und die License Change Views in den Editoren sind 
diese Daten also sauber.


Es gibt bei der Sache die kleine Komplikation, dass die LWG solche 
PD-aber-nicht-CT-Spielchen eigentlich nicht moechte, denn von solchen 
Usern fehlt uns dann die Konformitaetserklaerung, die man mit den CT 
normalerweise abgeben wuerde. Wenn sich die LWG da nicht noch 
umentscheidet, dann koennte es passieren, dass die auf diesem Weg als 
sauber markierten Daten am Ende doch geloescht werden muessen. Dennoch 
hielte ich das fuer kein Problem, denn dann koennte ein einzelner User - 
naemlich der, der den Eintrag in die Wikitabelle gemacht hat - sie 
aufgrund der PD-Erklaerung flugs wieder unter seinem Namen importieren. 
Dabei muesste *er* dann eben anstatt des urspruenglichen Mappers fuer 
die Edits geradestehen.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View

2011-12-30 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 02:07:37PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hallo,
 
 On 12/30/11 13:25, Florian Lohoff wrote:
 Hier sollte alles rot sein - Langenberg habe mehr oder minder ausschliesslich
 ich bearbeitet und ich habe nicht zugestimmt.
 
 Der OSMI hat eine Override-Tabelle, in der bestimmte User und
 bestimmte Changesets gelistet sind, deren Daten *trotz* ihrer
 fehlenden Zustimmung uebernommen werden koennen, weil es sich z.B.
 um Datenimporte, automatische Aenderungen, oder um Beitraege von
 Usern handelt, die oeffentlich erklaert haben, dass ihre Daten PD
 sind.

Ich dachte die einhellige meinung ist das PD contributions wegen fehlender
CT nicht gehen? Andernfalls koennte man ja meinen Account auch wieder
Freigeben oder?

 Freimut Kahrs hat Dich in diese Override-Tabelle eingetragen,
 vermutlich, weil Du auf Deiner Wiki-Userseite das PD-Template
 gesetzt hast. Fuer den OSMI und die License Change Views in den
 Editoren sind diese Daten also sauber.

Richtig.

 Es gibt bei der Sache die kleine Komplikation, dass die LWG solche
 PD-aber-nicht-CT-Spielchen eigentlich nicht moechte, denn von
 solchen Usern fehlt uns dann die Konformitaetserklaerung, die man
 mit den CT normalerweise abgeben wuerde. Wenn sich die LWG da nicht
 noch umentscheidet, dann koennte es passieren, dass die auf diesem
 Weg als sauber markierten Daten am Ende doch geloescht werden
 muessen. Dennoch hielte ich das fuer kein Problem, denn dann koennte
 ein einzelner User - naemlich der, der den Eintrag in die
 Wikitabelle gemacht hat - sie aufgrund der PD-Erklaerung flugs
 wieder unter seinem Namen importieren. Dabei muesste *er* dann eben
 anstatt des urspruenglichen Mappers fuer die Edits geradestehen.

Dann sollten diese aber doch markiert werden denn sie sind definitiv
nach der heutigen aussage der LWG doch nicht zulaessig oder?

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de

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Re: [Talk-de] Neue Regeln im OSMI-ODbL-View