Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Fabian Schmidt]

Am 13.08.18 schrieb Simon Poole:


Am 13.08.2018 um 18:46 schrieb Daniel Koć:


Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.


If you are doing that, why bother with OLC then, when  you can just as
well do some kind of sensible easily digestible house numbering? As you
are recording the value in a geospatial dataset all the advantages of
OLC vanish in a puff of smoke IMHO.


It is similar to the (South?) American addressing scheme, everybody could
compute the house number by measuring the distance to the next crossing,
but it might be faster to look it up in your contact data. And even if
your house is 10 m wide you only want to use (and memorize) one number,
even if several numbers map to the same house. And in answer to Frederik:
if your government does not feel responsible, just pick a number as a
house or business owner.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 13.08.2018 o 19:23, Frederik Ramm pisze:

> Which code would you then add to a building? 

I guess I was not clear enough.

I meant only the case when there is proper sign on the building, I would
tag it as an address then. Then and only then. It's perfectly verifiable
and I don't have to decide anything.

For the buildings without a plate with OLC number I would not try to tag
it, exactly because it's not clear which number should it be.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

Currently if I wish to send a letter or a package to someone I send it to
John Smith @ 110 main street.

OLC codes replaces 110 main street but it does have limitations but John
smith @ OLC code should get it close enough to be delivered.

The other issue is there are just the odd one or two buildings mapped in
the map that do not match an exact building outline.  I've definitely seen
one tagged with a HOT project tag line.

I suspect  these may be problematic but there again if the OLC code gets us
fairly close it might well be good enough.

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 08/13/2018 06:46 PM, Daniel Koć wrote:
>>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>>> database, even if marked on a building.
>
>> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
>> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.
>
> Which code would you then add to a building? Who would be given the
> power to decide (maybe of the several possible codes, one is nicer or
> contains the initials of the owner)? How would it be verifiable which
> code a building has?
>
> Bye
> Frederik


This is all exactly right. I can see a building having any one of
about 4 OLC 10 digit "addresses" on average depending on which imagery
the building was last aligned to.

That is just reality of how we are forever refining our representation
of the real world in a digital format. It has imprecision and this is
the scale where it becomes really obvious, 13m or less.

I am suggesting as a next step, we get a TMS layer that represents
this OLC grid and easily displays the 4, 6, 8, or 10 digit long OLC
for the grind square depending on scale.

Then about 5 of our tools "support" it already  because they support TMS layers.

I deal with these things at large scale and at the individual door
level, we all do who are concerned about this issue, so some tools to
help us visualize at scale and quantity these OLC codes will help a
lot. Plus the easy to solve case of "looking up" an OLC code is
already being added by folks like OSMAnd and OSM if they merge in the
existing pull request. I put in issues with two tools that I would
like to see support them, the HOT Tasking Manager and Fieldpapers.
Having OLC grid layer available in those tools would be very helpful,
especially Fieldpapers. A TMS end point would close the one for the
Tasking Manager.

Searching in OAM by OLC might be nice too, very easy to specify the
place and scale with one code.

As I said below, lets get these OLC codes that are in OSM now out, if
they are even still in there.  Vao, myself and whoever else is
interested in being able to use OLC to some degree in the eco system
of the OSM software community tools will figure out what makes sense
and what people want to do and we will go forward from there :)

I think TMS layer, whomever, however, or plug in for josm as polyglot
said, are all great and would really help the folks who want to work
more with OLC to see what, if any use cases it solves.

Cheers
Blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 13.08.2018 um 18:46 schrieb Daniel Koć:
> W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:
>
>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>> database, even if marked on a building.
> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.
>
If you are doing that, why bother with OLC then, when  you can just as
well do some kind of sensible easily digestible house numbering? As you
are recording the value in a geospatial dataset all the advantages of
OLC vanish in a puff of smoke IMHO.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 13.08.18 19:46, Daniel Koć wrote:

W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:


I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
database, even if marked on a building.

Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.

The OLC could be used also in property titles, for creating a real 
estate market where it could not exist before. Given - the OLC is 
created from coordinates by a mathematical formula and vice versa.


However, the idea was to give an address to 4+ billion people, the 
majority of the planet population, who at the time being do not have any.


Waiting until the houses are numbered and streets are named may take 
quite some time, - just type in google search "slums" and see the images 
tab.


So if it is not allowed to write the OLC as an address, what should 
people write if they do not have house numbers and street names? 
Nothing? Leave it empty as before?


Regions with classic addresses are rather exceptions, the main part of 
humanity does not have them yet at all. And the idea of the OLC is to 
provide an address, not only as a location (coordinates), but also as a 
plaque, legal address, passport record, medical insurance, school 
records, etc.


I can only imagine how humiliating for say a child to say at school that 
he does not have an address.


However, it is too early to worry about a database. I would concentrate 
first on implementing the generation of OLC and a search for OLC at the 
osm.org , i.e. creating an open source standard for an address in 
cooperation with Google Maps and others, similar as browsers agreed on 
HTML, JS, URL, DNS, SSL open standards. And then it will be seen how 
people use it.


Best regards,

O.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/13/2018 06:46 PM, Daniel Koć wrote:
>> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
>> database, even if marked on a building.

> Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
> not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.

Which code would you then add to a building? Who would be given the
power to decide (maybe of the several possible codes, one is nicer or
contains the initials of the owner)? How would it be verifiable which
code a building has?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 13.08.2018 o 18:37, Jo pisze:

> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the
> database, even if marked on a building.

Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they
not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Jo]

I would think that if you are in the field, apps like OsmAnd and Maps.ME
can show you the OLC address of where you are.

If you want to see a grid in JOSM or iD, it should be trivial to either
show them as transparent imagery, or in the case of JOSM, have a plugin
draw the grid and show it as an extra layer you can toggle on or off.

I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the database,
even if marked on a building.

If I paint the coordinates of my house on it, are you going to map that
too? And if so, would you add them to lon and lat tags or to addr:housename?

Polyglot

Op ma 13 aug. 2018 om 18:23 schreef Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <
blake.girar...@hotosm.org>:

> Hi Tom,
>
> This is an example of the first way I and I think others in the
> humanitarian world need to use OLCs to evaluate them for what they can
> or can not solve for humanitarian and other use cases:
>
> https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609
>
> We need to deal with them at scale, not at the "look up" an individual
> address process which is trivial to solve.
>
> That is really the first step, for folks to learn the grid and it's
> inherent scale steps and how that translates into OLC codes of various
> lengths.
>
> Cheers,
> blake
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tom Lee  wrote:
> > I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
> > Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC
> in
> > the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived
> from
> > geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has
> already
> > made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.
> >
> > If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
> > some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their
> workflow, I
> > suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
> > through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

Hi Tom,

This is an example of the first way I and I think others in the
humanitarian world need to use OLCs to evaluate them for what they can
or can not solve for humanitarian and other use cases:

https://twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/status/1028689726088388609

We need to deal with them at scale, not at the "look up" an individual
address process which is trivial to solve.

That is really the first step, for folks to learn the grid and it's
inherent scale steps and how that translates into OLC codes of various
lengths.

Cheers,
blake



On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Tom Lee  wrote:
> I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
> Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in
> the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from
> geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already
> made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.
>
> If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
> some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I
> suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
> through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
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-- 

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Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Rasťo Šrámek]

Perhaps let me add my 2c:
In my mental model there are two cases in which plus codes attain different
semantics: a plus code as an encoding of latitude and longitude,
and a plus code written on an sign above a door or on a house. If you asked
me I'd say the first should not be ingested into a database and the
second is not really different than any other street number if the database
aims to reflect the ground truth.

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Tom Lee  wrote:

> I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
> Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in
> the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from
> geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already
> made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.
>
> If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
> some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I
> suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
> through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Tom Lee]

I'm surprised to see that this conversation has made it past the weekend.
Since it has, let me add my voice to those suggesting that encoding OLC in
the database (or any other values that can be algorithmically derived from
geometry) makes very little sense. I'm grateful to everyone who has already
made this point, in various ways and with various levels of forcefulness.

If the folks advocating for OLC would like to walk through the rationale
some more or explore alternative ways of getting OLC into their workflow, I
suspect that a number of people on this thread would be happy to talk
through it, myself included. Please don't hesitate to email.

Tom
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 12.08.18 02:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



On 12. Aug 2018, at 01:40, Simon Poole > wrote:


People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings 
than something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained 
location/coordinate value, of which you may have multiple for one 
house. We know this works, it is still a very common system in alpine 
regions in Europe.


It depends a lot on the details and setting, in Venice, to give an 
example with a dense urban setting, building entrances are numbered 
with 4digits, unique within their “sestiere” (literally not quarter 
but sixth), and it doesn’t work well for finding a place (unless you 
use a map which has all the numbers). For a quick impression:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/45.44062/12.34087


Cheers,
Martin






Alpine regions and Venice are probably most orderly, civilized, and 
historically rich places in the world. Alpine villages look like fairy 
tales. A public bus which serve them may have an ultra-modern colored TV 
and air conditioning.


Yes, after two or three generations and functioning educational system, 
maybe. But meanwhile I doubt very much that ids created on the ground, 
lighted plaques, are even remotely feasible in all regions.


I also think that a coding system per se is not necessarily a good 
solution, unless it becomes a universal standard. For example, as the 
HTML or URL for browsers. If two giants the OSM and Google Maps would 
support the open source OLC (plus-codes), it may work. And it could be 
good thing for further innovations in this domain, it could create a 
global market of advanced addressing solutions.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2018, at 01:40, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> People seem to be looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than 
> something that is dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate 
> value, of which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it 
> is still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.



It depends a lot on the details and setting, in Venice, to give an example with 
a dense urban setting, building entrances are numbered with 4digits, unique 
within their “sestiere” (literally not quarter but sixth), and it doesn’t work 
well for finding a place (unless you use a map which has all the numbers). For 
a quick impression:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/45.44062/12.34087


Cheers,
Martin




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

Unfortunately reality is new mappers cut and paste buildings so you end up
with multiple buildings with the same address.  There are three other
problems, maintenance is the first.  How do you ensure that new buildings
get a code?  Second in many parts of Africa the same building gets mapped
more than once.  Usually the outline that closest fits the building is left
but that may not be the one with the address tag and finally how do you
prevent someone from changing the tags?  Vandalism is not unknown in OSM.

>From a practical point of view an encoded lat and long is a sort of basic
works anywhere solution.  Where there is better organisation for example in
the alpine regions of Europe then more traditional forms of an address are
to be preferred.

Cheerio John


On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, 7:40 pm Simon Poole,  wrote:

>
>
> Am 12.08.2018 um 01:27 schrieb john whelan:
>
> > Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
> with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
> good/fit for purpose.
>
> And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?
>
> A pure numeric (because we know the phone numbers work) grid reference
> relative to a suitable administrative entity.
>
> BUT as this discussion shows, in the end you could simply number all
> buildings in a place and add those numbers to OSM (as the authoritative
> repository) and probably make everybody happier. People seem to be looking
> more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is dependent on
> a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of which you may have
> multiple for one house. We know this works, it is still a very common
> system in alpine regions in Europe.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>> >  is a good idea,
>> > apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>> >
>> >
>> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
>> with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
>> good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
>> hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
>> safely be ignored.
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 12.08.2018 um 01:27 schrieb john whelan:
> > Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about
> fiddling with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just
> simply not very good/fit for purpose.
>
> And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?
A pure numeric (because we know the phone numbers work) grid reference
relative to a suitable administrative entity.

BUT as this discussion shows, in the end you could simply number all
buildings in a place and add those numbers to OSM (as the authoritative
repository) and probably make everybody happier. People seem to be
looking more for unique ids for their dwellings than something that is
dependent on a relatively fine grained location/coordinate value, of
which you may have multiple for one house. We know this works, it is
still a very common system in alpine regions in Europe.

Simon

>
> Thanks John
>
> On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
> >  is a good idea,
> > apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
> >
> >
> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
> with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply
> not very
> good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
> hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that
> aspect can
> safely be ignored.
>
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose.

And discounting using pure lat and long your solution would be?

Thanks John

On 11 August 2018 at 19:04, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
>
> Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
> >  is a good idea,
> > apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
> >
> >
> Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
> with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
> good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
> hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
> safely be ignored.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 11.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
>  is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
>
Note my opposition, notwithstanding my general concerns about fiddling
with the markets, is founded in that plus codes are just simply not very
good/fit for purpose. But as everybody should know that isn't a
hindrance to being successful in the marketplace and so that aspect can
safely be ignored.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

I think what is needed is an independent way to generate them from OSMand
and I think that is part of the missing puzzle.

Cheerio John

On 11 August 2018 at 11:30, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <
blake.girar...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst
>  wrote:
> > Blake Girardot wrote:
> >> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
> >> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF
> >> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system
> >> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.
> >
> > That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
> > tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.
> >
> > https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/
> 2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656
> >
> > Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
> > implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good
> idea,
> > apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
> >
> > Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
> > it's a good thing
> > (https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#
> issuecomment-380695939).
> > I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge
> us
> > on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
> > return. :)
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
> Thank you Richard, I did come in late. Some of the really insulting
> comments on that github thread caught my eye and I didn't read back to
> understand the issue fully.
>
> As I said, we'll look at all of this and put a wiki page together.
>
> Getting that pull request merged would be a great first step in
> helping the folks who this matters to explore the use of plus codes.
>
> I see the goolge manager commented on it. And while he makes some
> suggestions, I would rather see exactly what the PR has now be merged
> and we can go from there.
>
> Cheers,
> blake
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst
 wrote:
> Blake Girardot wrote:
>> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
>> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF
>> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system
>> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.
>
> That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
> tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.
>
> https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656
>
> Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
> implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good idea,
> apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.
>
> Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
> it's a good thing
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#issuecomment-380695939).
> I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge us
> on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
> return. :)
>
> Richard
>

Thank you Richard, I did come in late. Some of the really insulting
comments on that github thread caught my eye and I didn't read back to
understand the issue fully.

As I said, we'll look at all of this and put a wiki page together.

Getting that pull request merged would be a great first step in
helping the folks who this matters to explore the use of plus codes.

I see the goolge manager commented on it. And while he makes some
suggestions, I would rather see exactly what the PR has now be merged
and we can go from there.

Cheers,
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Blake Girardot wrote:
> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF 
> and let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system 
> tools implement OLC native in code as it should be.

That's done. Tom has coded it. Months ago. It's 20 lines of code (plus
tests), which is a fraction of the bandwidth spent on this thread.

https://github.com/tomhughes/openstreetmap-website/commit/2e0a2c67caf64df732f1e14160d5ead96c73a656

Everyone in this thread appears to think that what Tom has done - i.e.
implementing it in the osm.org client rather than in tags - is a good idea,
apart from Simon, and even Homer nods sometimes.

Tom, understandably, doesn't want to push it live without consensus that
it's a good thing
(https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818#issuecomment-380695939).
I reckon this thread is consensus enough and I'm sure Simon can indulge us
on this one little thing if we promise to uncockup some editor presets in
return. :)

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

What do the users in Tanzania  require?  Do they have access to an android
smartphone?

If so what is wrong with using OSMand, its free.  Every building in
Tanzania has a visible OLC code and its permanent so no danger it will
disappear after the trial.

Cheerio John



On 11 August 2018 at 09:31, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 5:49 AM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
> >> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
> >
> > All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
> > imports.
> >
> > This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
> > an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
> > of their not-having-an-address misery.
> >
> > Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
> > Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
> > negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
> > funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
> > for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
> > complicit in that cynicism.
> >
> > Bye
> > Frederik
>
> Ok, lets us get back to reality please.
>
> All this huffing and puffing, dumbest idea ever in history, etc etc is
> typical and typically not helping.
>
> The situation is:
>
> A ngo on the ground in Tanzania does first responded type work, they
> see how helpful addresses are in other contexts, but the area they
> work does not have any.
>
> This OLC thing seems like it would be interesting to explore, it might
> solve some of their use cases.
>
> All of their tools and workflows can use osm tags, especially like the
> addr: tags.
>
> What if we had something like that, an osm tag that had basically an
> addr: value, just from OLC instead of however one normally gets an
> address. How would that work? Where could we display it? How could we
> look them up? etc etc
>
> So by doing a small test using a regular old osm tag, they can explore
> if it is useful, how it might help, etc etc. and every single OSM tool
> in existence at this moment knows how to deal with osm addr: tags or
> osm tags more generally. What a great starting point to see if this
> solves any of their use cases, some of which we probably could not
> really describe well anyway.
>
> Ya, I am going to try some tagging options so they can get a look at
> what is possible if the tools they used supported this in code as they
> should, of course.
>
> I was not involved with this at all before, but I am now and I am
> going to do what I do, which is do what I can to help people use OSM,
> in full accordance with OSM guidelines, which this totally is.
>
> OSM will not break, everything will be ok, but OSM is a folksonomy and
> this is folksonomy 101 here.
>
> So take some deep breaths.
>
> Some local OSM'ers are going to experiment very locally and carefully
> with how OLCs or an OLC-like thing might fit into their use cases and
> we are going to do it by using tags because that is what every OSM
> tool in existence right now understands and can use to various
> degrees.
>
> We'll make a wiki page, revert the import, we'll detail it in the wiki
> page and re do it on a better defined area, described in the wiki
> project page.
>
> Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
> point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF and
> let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system tools
> implement OLC native in code as it should be. Let the OSMF decide how
> to best help get the functionality everyone says should "just exist"
> in the vast ecosphere of OSM tools. I also plan on following up on
> that idea regardless of this tag / no tag issue, which is a minor
> issue at best.
>
> Cheers
> blake
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 5:49 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
>> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
> imports.
>
> This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
> an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
> of their not-having-an-address misery.
>
> Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
> Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
> negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
> funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
> for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
> complicit in that cynicism.
>
> Bye
> Frederik

Ok, lets us get back to reality please.

All this huffing and puffing, dumbest idea ever in history, etc etc is
typical and typically not helping.

The situation is:

A ngo on the ground in Tanzania does first responded type work, they
see how helpful addresses are in other contexts, but the area they
work does not have any.

This OLC thing seems like it would be interesting to explore, it might
solve some of their use cases.

All of their tools and workflows can use osm tags, especially like the
addr: tags.

What if we had something like that, an osm tag that had basically an
addr: value, just from OLC instead of however one normally gets an
address. How would that work? Where could we display it? How could we
look them up? etc etc

So by doing a small test using a regular old osm tag, they can explore
if it is useful, how it might help, etc etc. and every single OSM tool
in existence at this moment knows how to deal with osm addr: tags or
osm tags more generally. What a great starting point to see if this
solves any of their use cases, some of which we probably could not
really describe well anyway.

Ya, I am going to try some tagging options so they can get a look at
what is possible if the tools they used supported this in code as they
should, of course.

I was not involved with this at all before, but I am now and I am
going to do what I do, which is do what I can to help people use OSM,
in full accordance with OSM guidelines, which this totally is.

OSM will not break, everything will be ok, but OSM is a folksonomy and
this is folksonomy 101 here.

So take some deep breaths.

Some local OSM'ers are going to experiment very locally and carefully
with how OLCs or an OLC-like thing might fit into their use cases and
we are going to do it by using tags because that is what every OSM
tool in existence right now understands and can use to various
degrees.

We'll make a wiki page, revert the import, we'll detail it in the wiki
page and re do it on a better defined area, described in the wiki
project page.

Also: No one is getting paid for anything related to this at this
point. I personally would like to see Google donate to the OSMF and
let the OSMF grant it out to help OSM core and eco system tools
implement OLC native in code as it should be. Let the OSMF decide how
to best help get the functionality everyone says should "just exist"
in the vast ecosphere of OSM tools. I also plan on following up on
that idea regardless of this tag / no tag issue, which is a minor
issue at best.

Cheers
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Mike N]

On 8/11/2018 1:35 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
And they will not start putting up signs of the Plus-Codes outside their 
house unless the OpenStreetMap community accept this technology.


   What would actually happen in these locations?  Do they bring up the 
web site https://www.openstreetmap.org and use that?


This 
was a minor experimental import for a small remote town Zeze in the 
United Republic of Tanzania. Nothing happened.


   I see that it has been reverted, but what happened in the 3 months 
since the data was placed there.   Was there a plan to use and evaluate 
the system?


  The community generally seems open to the idea of adding them to 
tools and apps that end users use, although not yet for certain on the 
main OSM web site which has the purpose of mapping assistance.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[mmd]

Am 11.08.2018 um 12:18 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> I hope you are aware that you are defending a bad tagging idea with the 
> existence of other bad tagging ideas.

The intention was actually quite the opposite. It was more a question of
taking a step back and revisiting those tags where coordinate values
already slipped in in the past where they shouldn't have.

A bit more consistency would also help arguing why we usually don't do
coordinates in tag values.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Errington]

Yes indeed, otherwise I wouldn't have recorded them.

I'd be happy to hear a better solution for survey points. The naive
approach is to assume that the latitude and longitude of the point in OSM
is the surveyed value, which it should be, but without external
corroboration you can't be sure.

Anyway, my point was it is sometimes appropriate to record explicitly the
latitude and longitude of a point, even though it's redundant. In fact in
that case redundancy is good.

In this general discussion concerning Open Location Code, tagging the
database objects with the OLC is dumb. As soon as someone moves the object
the OLC is wrong. To fix that we could re-tag the object with a new OLC, or
move it back to the place dictated by the OLC. Obviously, we don't want to
move it back (it was moved for a reason), so we could generate a new OLC
tag (from the object's lat/lon), but it's pointless storing that as it can
be easily and trivially calculated on the fly.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 22:23 Andrew Hain  wrote:

> Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the
> WGS84 that we use?
> --
> *From:* Andrew Errington 
> *Sent:* 11 August 2018 10:56
> *To:* mmd
> *Cc:* Talk Openstreetmap
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add
> the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
>
> I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on
> the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved
> accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed
> location.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd  wrote:
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> > a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> > data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> > substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> > for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> > of the whole geodata world.
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude
>
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the WGS84 
that we use?

From: Andrew Errington 
Sent: 11 August 2018 10:56
To: mmd
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?

I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on the 
survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved 
accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed 
location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd mailto:mmd@gmail.com>> 
wrote:
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 11 August 2018, mmd wrote:
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

I hope you are aware that you are defending a bad tagging idea with the 
existence of other bad tagging ideas.

While pointless tags added by imports are an unnecessary burden to data 
maintainance and bad for the reputation of OSM since they demonstrate a 
lack of quality control for imports in OSM they are not even remotely 
as damaging as would be the deliberate large scale addition of encoded 
coordinates as tags to millions of features.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Errington]

I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on
the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved
accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed
location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd  wrote:

> Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> > a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> > data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> > substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> > for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> > of the whole geodata world.
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude
>
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote:
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed
imports.

This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of
an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out
of their not-having-an-address misery.

Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense.
Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best
negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever
funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time
for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us
complicit in that cynicism.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Jo]

Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 11:24 schreef mmd :

>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude
>
> If you look at the distribution on the map for the first 3, they are all
in 'clusters'. It shouldn't be too hard to remove them, but given that it
would require going through the hassle of requesting permission, I don't
see who would care enough to do that.

It would be easier to simply add them to JOSM's  list of keys it will
discard upon upload.

Polyglot.

PS: Roland, would it make sense to add a possibility to the Overpass API to
'generate' these "addresses"'on-the-fly?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[mmd]

Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with 
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and 
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in 
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if 
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock 
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

-- 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

The argument against the goog is that they have a monopolies in certain
markets and are using those to extend in to others, I doubt that you
could make a case against third parties supporting what then becomes the
monopoly system, but who knows.


I've actually legally been in that situation during the first browser
wars and there was never an indication that organisations that signed
contracts that were later ruled illegal would be considered liable for
that, in the end they didn't really have a choice.


SImon


Am 11.08.2018 um 10:48 schrieb Andrew Hain:
> If they did sue, could Nomination, Osmand or OSM be liable if we
> implement it?
>
> --
> Andrew
> 
> *From:* Simon Poole 
> *Sent:* 11 August 2018 09:43
> *To:* Blake Girardot
> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to
> add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
>  
>
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> > Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)
>
> It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
> pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
> from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
> obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
> suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
> successful with the company as such. 
>
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

If they did sue, could Nomination, Osmand or OSM be liable if we implement it?

--
Andrew

From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 11 August 2018 09:43
To: Blake Girardot
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?



Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such. 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Steve Doerr]

On 10/08/2018 21:41, Blake Girardot wrote:


But while I do not like the w3w solution, if they wanted to support
OSMF to improve w3w support in osm core and the ecosystem of tools I
would be all for giving it the exact same trial if the community
agreed.

But generally, I think plus codes are coming out looking quite good
from a technical perspective, both dynamically generated and static
uses like address signs and printed maps.




There's also Mapcode: http://www.mapcode.com/

--
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 11 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:
> >>
> >> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us
> >> how you really feel :)
> >
> > I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea
> > what you want to say with that.
>
> My apologies Christoph, it was sarcasm. You were anything but polite
> or gentle with your feedback. I thought it was a friendly, funny way
> to de-escalate the discussion and hopefully spark some personal
> reflection.

Well - i wasn't really trying to be polite, i was trying to be direct 
because polite arguments by others why tagging encoded coordinates is 
not a good idea were ignored.

Anyway i think we have now made the arguments agains tagging this very 
clear with Frederik also explaining the practical scenarios in detail.  
Nothing has been brought up against these arguments except the 
continued expression of the political desire to push this into the OSM 
database despite all the arguments against it.  Everyone is entitled to 
their political views but i don't think the OSM database is a place 
where these can be articulated.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Harvey]

> If the OSM community accepts the OpenLocationCode, then it would become
de facto universal addressing system. Only then people may start believing
and investing in it.

As others have pointed out the proper place for OSM to support the
OpenLocationCode in OSM is in https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ both
forward and reverse geocoding so if you search for an OLC it finds the
coordinates, and vice versa right clicking, Show address here returns the
OLC.

Nothing stopping you taking an extract of OSM, adding your own OLC codes to
that data and then doing what you like with that. No need to upload it to
the OSM database
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 11.08.2018 um 01:19 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> While it is true that both parties have economic interest in this, plus codes 
> are both, free to use and open source, unlike their 3 words competitor. Even 
> if w3w „wins“ we would likely not be interested in promoting them on OSMF 
> servers.
>
Well we support tagging proprietary postcode systems in countries that
have them (say the UK, Ireland and so on), but there it is clear that
they are what is -actually in use-. These post codes tend to legally not
really be different than say w3w codes.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Aug 2018, at 07:28, Martin Trautmann  wrote:
> 
> And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
> buildings?


for tall buildings you will add a floor number I guess, and in more complex 
cases a unit or door number as well. These do not require a coordinated effort, 
every building operator can define them for their building as needed.

Ciao, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

This looks to be very comfortably within the computational ability of mobile 
phone apps (“You could calculate it with AI” is a much less attractive 
deletionist argument) so everyone who has implemented it by conerting 
coordinates on the fly would seem to be doing the right thing.

--
Andrew

From: Paul Norman 
Sent: 10 August 2018 23:00:39
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?

On 2018-08-10 1:06 PM, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
> solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
> generation is just not possible.
>
> This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
> work well here.

Speaking as a developer, it's much easier to add PlusCode support
properly than to try and parse another address tag. Don't add them
thinking it makes it easier.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 11.08.18 08:28, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 18-08-09 15:32, oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote:

Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The
algorithm is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and
available on GitHub [1].

Please let me help to understand OLC: is this nothing else than another
representation of lat and lon?

This may be good enough for rural areas and small buildings. But I do
not understand how it should work for very tall buildings.

How would you proceed for those tall buildings?

So how do you provide your OLC? It's the OLC of your actual location?
And you do add the OLC for the entry to your tall building?
(where bells or letter boxes might be located? Or is this an extra OLC?)
And as an extra you do provide the entry to your street?

And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
buildings?

I do thing especially about tall buildings with a maze of corridors.
You'd need a list of OLC waypoints how to find your location - within a
building, where GPS will not work.

- Martin



___


Hi Martin,

I absolutely agree with you. The OLC is not perfect. All existing 
addressing systems remind me the situation with email addresses in early 
90s. When moving to another part of a town one had to change the email 
address, because it was provided only by an ISP.


But the OLC is open source. It tries to solve the acute problem that 
more than four billion people on Earth do not have any address for 
numerous reasons: there are no street names, there are no streets, 
buildings are constructed "illegally", etc. Even in some cities with 
existing inefficient address system finding an address could be a 
daunting task. I understand perfectly well that developers in Europe and 
North America, where there is a functional legacy system, cannot grasp 
the magnitude of the problem. It is something hard to imagine without 
being implicated.


It is not only a remote problem. The resulting excessive senseless 
driving on global scale in search of a house causes additional CO2 
pollution which concerns all.


Since the OLC (plus-code) is open source there will be further efforts 
to improve it, to solve the issues which you mentioned and some others. 
Using just coordinates, however, is like writing a program in assembler, 
it is possible but less convenient than say in C++.


With best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 11.08.18 00:58, Andrew Harvey wrote:


I agree, unless people start putting up signs of the Plus Codes 
outside their house and you're mapping that as the on the ground 
housenumber. ...



___


And they will not start putting up signs of the Plus-Codes outside their 
house unless the OpenStreetMap community accept this technology. This 
was a minor experimental import for a small remote town Zeze in the 
United Republic of Tanzania. Nothing happened. It is not an issue. Zeze 
is well mapped at OpenStreetMap, but it is not present at the Google Maps.


If the OSM community accepts the OpenLocationCode, then it would become 
de facto universal addressing system. Only then people may start 
believing and investing in it.


Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Trautmann]

On 18-08-09 15:32, oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote:
> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The
> algorithm is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and
> available on GitHub [1].

Please let me help to understand OLC: is this nothing else than another
representation of lat and lon?

This may be good enough for rural areas and small buildings. But I do
not understand how it should work for very tall buildings.

How would you proceed for those tall buildings?

So how do you provide your OLC? It's the OLC of your actual location?
And you do add the OLC for the entry to your tall building?
(where bells or letter boxes might be located? Or is this an extra OLC?)
And as an extra you do provide the entry to your street?

And this is still a two dimensional address only? How about multilevel
buildings?

I do thing especially about tall buildings with a maze of corridors.
You'd need a list of OLC waypoints how to find your location - within a
building, where GPS will not work.

- Martin



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

I have two concerns about separate tags and they come from my validation
experience with HOT mappers.

The first is duplicate buildings.  When faced with 50 duplicate buildings
in a village if I'm feeling good I'll use the to do list to look at each
pair and delete the one that is the one that least matches the building
outline.  I must confess I do not try to contact the mapper who mapped last
time.  If I or someone like me deletes the outline with the additional add
tags on it the information will be lost.

I note Blake was kind enough to delete some 500 duplicate buildings very
recently very quickly.  He may not have had a changeset discussion on each
one.

The other concern is the use of copying buildings by HOT mappers.  It is
purely a suspicion of mine but I often see a cluster of buildings of
exactly the same size when the underlying buildings are different sizes.
Copy a building with an addr: address code and all the copies will have the
same address.

Something else to check when validating and we know there aren't enough
validators already.  Also its very difficult and time consuming to check
when validating and few validators like validating buildings.

Same topic how do you protect against vandalism?  Someone deliberately
changing the address codes?  Vandalism shouldn't happen but adding the
codes separately adds a vulnerability.

Would someone who imported the codes please address my concerns.

Thanks John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 7:25 pm Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <
> blake.girar...@hotosm.org> wrote:
> >
> > In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> > while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> > local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> > stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> > buildings, communicate with each other using them.
>
>
> you can use plus codes NOW. It is already working. No need to add
> coordinates in tags.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM  
> wrote:
> 
> In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> buildings, communicate with each other using them.


you can use plus codes NOW. It is already working. No need to add coordinates 
in tags. 


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 22:06, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
> amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
> idea.


we could support any system that is used and can be used free and openly.


> w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
> paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
> systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
> then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.


While it is true that both parties have economic interest in this, plus codes 
are both, free to use and open source, unlike their 3 words competitor. Even if 
w3w „wins“ we would likely not be interested in promoting them on OSMF servers.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:23 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
>> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone
>> > with a bit of understanding of computer programming, data
>> > processing and data maintainance that even after ignoring all the
>> > arguments in substance that have been voiced this should be
>> > universally rejected if for no other reason then because it would
>> > make OSM the laughing stock of the whole geodata world.
>>
>> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
>> you really feel :)
>
> I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea what
> you want to say with that.

My apologies Christoph, it was sarcasm. You were anything but polite
or gentle with your feedback. I thought it was a friendly, funny way
to de-escalate the discussion and hopefully spark some personal
reflection.

Cheers
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone
> > with a bit of understanding of computer programming, data
> > processing and data maintainance that even after ignoring all the
> > arguments in substance that have been voiced this should be
> > universally rejected if for no other reason then because it would
> > make OSM the laughing stock of the whole geodata world.
>
> Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
> you really feel :)

I am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea what 
you want to say with that.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Paul Norman]

On 2018-08-10 1:06 PM, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:

Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
generation is just not possible.

This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
work well here.


Speaking as a developer, it's much easier to add PlusCode support 
properly than to try and parse another address tag. Don't add them 
thinking it makes it easier.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Harvey]

On 10 August 2018 at 22:47, Michael Reichert  wrote:
>
> There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
> automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
> already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.
>
> Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
> and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
> from latitude and longitude.
>
> This import should be reverted.
>

I agree, unless people start putting up signs of the Plus Codes outside
their house and you're mapping that as the on the ground housenumber. I
don't agree with importing these, it just adds unnecessary bloat to the
database size.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Matt Williams]

On 10 August 2018 at 21:06, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
 wrote:
> Hi Frederick,
>
> I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
>
> I think for the most part we all agree on the technology solution
> really looking like the best option. But it is the best option in the
> medium and long term.
>
> In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
> while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
> local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
> stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
> buildings, communicate with each other using them.

But exactly *how* does adding the OLC as a tag to the object in OSM
help them do that? Why do they need them as tags to do any of printing
maps, putting signs on buildings or communicating with others using
them? What actual process, manual or programmatic, are you imagining
here? The only way to make use of OSM is to write software which
processes the database (creating geocoders, rendering maps etc). That
software could *so* easily inject OLCs in whatever way you want. The
only possible reason to have OLCs as a tag is if people are reading
the raw XML OSM data as text printed on paper and want to find out
what OLC a certain way has. No one does that.

To make any meaningful use of these tags they will have to write
software designed to extract the OLCs and interpret them at which
point they could simply *generate* the tags at point-of-use (they are
effectively just an encoded lat/lon). This avoids any onerous manual
tagging and makes anything they create immediately useful as widely as
they wish.

I agree with others in this discussion that it's bizarre that anyone
thinks that adding these codes as tags to all the buildings in a city
is a sensible thing to do or a good use of anyone's time.

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
> systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
> royalties for.

Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

But I agree, I hope all the folks and organizations that contribute to
OpenStreetMap profit from it in some way.

Cheers
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-08-10 21:06, Simon Poole wrote:

While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
(w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.

As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.


Or OSM could support a variety of different coordinate systems (so long 
as they are free/open).
It is possible to search for latitude/longitude on osm.org, why not also 
allow UTM/MGRS, Plus codes, Geohash etc.

OSM doesn't have to endorse one particular system as the best.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

Let us just recap.  Open Location Code can be used in OSMand today for
anything in Openstreetmap.

It both shows the OLC code and can search for the OLC code so to my mind
OLC is already available in OpenStreetMap and can be used operationally
today.  There is no need to add additional tags to the database.

If additional tags are added how do we know the data is correct?  How can
we be sure a transcription error has not occurred.

Purely from a data quality point of view I would recommend the data is not
duplicated.

I understand that in Tanzania a lot of work has been done to add them.
Fine they didn't understand the issues nor did they talk to anyone first.
The issue here is education nothing else.

I would suggest we add it to the search options on the web site and get on
with life.

Cheerio John



On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 4:38 AM Simon Poole  wrote:

>
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 22:18 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:
> > ...
> >
> > The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt
> > though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license
> > and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do
> > not know such subtleties.
> >
> >
> That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
> systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
> royalties for. They don't actually need to charge for their system to
> have a win. I'm not making a moral judgement here, improving your bottom
> line one way or the other, is exactly the same.
>
> Simon
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 22:14 schrieb Blake Girardot HOT/OSM:
>> ...
>> Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
>> but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
>> lot of momentum behind it.
> In the case of w3w one can actually make a technical case for including
> them in OSM, in the case of plus codes, as has been pointed out. that is
> absurd. If a community wants to try out one or the other, more power to
> them, I just fail to see what that has to do with OSM.
>
> Simon
>
> PS: naturally the momentum has a lot to do with very very very deep pockets
>

Oh absolutely. Vendors supporting OSMF is critical. If a donor wants
to sponsor particular improvements, I 100% support that if the
community generally supports the improvements.

I think we are all agreeing it has really good, lightweight, dynamic
implementation characteristics. That is a great technical criteria.

I do not support w3w (full disclosure founder of w3w has been a
supporter of HOT, an organization I work for, these are my opinions
only). It is a fun idea, but I think it does not work for a number of
reasons. But super cool idea.

But while I do not like the w3w solution, if they wanted to support
OSMF to improve w3w support in osm core and the ecosystem of tools I
would be all for giving it the exact same trial if the community
agreed.

But generally, I think plus codes are coming out looking quite good
from a technical perspective, both dynamically generated and static
uses like address signs and printed maps.

Cheers,
blake



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.08.2018 um 22:18 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:
> ...
>
> The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt
> though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license
> and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do
> not know such subtleties.
>
>
That is not the point, for the goog it is a net win simply avoiding
systems being adopted for which they potentially would have to pay
royalties for. They don't actually need to charge for their system to
have a win. I'm not making a moral judgement here, improving your bottom
line one way or the other, is exactly the same.

Simon




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.08.2018 um 22:14 schrieb Blake Girardot HOT/OSM:
> ...
> Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
> but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
> lot of momentum behind it.
In the case of w3w one can actually make a technical case for including
them in OSM, in the case of plus codes, as has been pointed out. that is
absurd. If a community wants to try out one or the other, more power to
them, I just fail to see what that has to do with OSM.

Simon

PS: naturally the momentum has a lot to do with very very very deep pockets




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

>
> I think it will work like this - a dispatcher at an ambulance service says
> during a call: "We will not go to your house unless you provide the
> plus-code. Bot the Google Maps and OpenStreetMap websites allow to generate
> the plus-code for a house." I mean it will not work without a leadership.
>
> The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt though, -
> cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license and not one has
> to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do not know such
> subtleties.

They can't change the license to the code released now. Download it,
it is yours to use in accordance with the license it was released
under forever.

If they enhance it later, add new code, rewrite it, etc, that can be
under a different license.

But what works right now (or until a license change) will keep working
assuming you have the hardware and software to run it.

cheers
blake



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 23:06, Simon Poole wrote:

While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
(w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.

As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.

Simon





I think it will work like this - a dispatcher at an ambulance service 
says during a call: "We will not go to your house unless you provide the 
plus-code. Bot the Google Maps and OpenStreetMap websites allow to 
generate the plus-code for a house." I mean it will not work without a 
leadership.


The OLC is Open Source with the Apache 2.0 license. I have a doubt 
though, - cannot Google in couple of years say: "We change the license 
and not one has to pay for the OLC usage?" I am not a lawyer and I do 
not know such subtleties.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
> (w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
> traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
> systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.
>
> As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
> amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
> idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
> paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
> systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
> then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.
>
> Simon

Hi Simon, what should "win" is the system that works the best. w3w has
been tried, is being tried, we can try that too, but what should win
is what is open, is fit for the purpose, can and will be used and is
non propitiatory.

Our community should have a say in what wins, we can try them both,
but here is a local group asking us to try plus codes and there is a
lot of momentum behind it.

Cheers,


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Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Simon Poole]

While the goals sound worthy, it is unclear if any of the grid systems
(w3w, plus codes and so on) deliver on their promises and have any
traction outside of people in countries with established addressing
systems trying to push them as solutions for countries without.

As I've pointed out before, if OSM supports a specific system, it
amounts to us picking a winner , and I really don't think that is a good
idea. w3w wants to make money from royalties, google wants to avoid
paying them. Both have a financial interest in us adopting their
systems. IMHO when one eventually "wins" we can start supporting it
then, before one of them pasts the post, it is premature.

Simon





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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

Hi Frederick,

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I think for the most part we all agree on the technology solution
really looking like the best option. But it is the best option in the
medium and long term.

In the short term, putting a few thousand plus-codes in as addresses,
while the local community tries them out. Who know if they work for
local folks, but just jamming a few thousand in will allow all the
stake holders to trial these codes. Print maps, put signs on
buildings, communicate with each other using them.

While that goes on, the other technological support can happen if
people wish to do that or maybe we find some funding to add support to
some of the most popular community apps and the nominatum.

But we will still be learning from the small scale tag based trials.

Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
generation is just not possible.

This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
work well here.

I am fairly sure I know the local on the ground community that might
like to explore this. The Mugumu Safe House
http://www.tanzdevtrust.org/portfolio-item/mugumu-safe-house-for-girls/
who have to perform rescues. They are first responders to gender based
sexual violence and might be just the sort of organization that would
like to start using plus-codes, and they are local and understand the
local culture and customs better than any other living group of
people.

So, lets take this all down a degree and Vao and whomever else is
interested and formalize the testing of plus codes in a rural tanzania
setting.

But lets leave the address that are imported, they are hurting nothing
at the moment and we should look at them and review them and learn
from them being there now.

Respectfully
blake



On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Blake,
>
> On 10.08.2018 19:23, Blake Girardot wrote:
>> I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
>> adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
>> forward.
>
> Christoph was a bit harsh in his response but I think he is right on teh
> fundamentals, and I urge you to reconsider.
>
> As I have explained in another post just a few minutes ago, taking the
> "adding tags to OSM" approach is a cynical form of aid - it makes people
> using it depend on your aid. It wastes effort with those adding the
> data, it wastes storage space in OSM, it has *nothing*, absolutely
> nothing going for it.
>
> The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
> locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
> map - be that the osm.org web site, or the offline application they're
> using, or the machine that prints a map. It would not be difficult to
> modify e.g. the humanitarian map style to print plus codes onto
> buildings, computing them on the fly, if that's desired. Doing this
> means you develop it once and it is immediately usable everywhere by
> everyone. That is the only sensible approach. Otherwise you'll be stuck
> running one project after the other ("add plus codes for X community",
> "add plus codes for Y community", etc.), and not only that: The generic
> approach will automatically work for everything built in the future. It
> can be used to address not only houses but wells, mountains, bays, even
> trees. It is better in *every* respect.
>
> We must let reason prevail here and not do something on a whim based on
> a misunderstanding of how things work.
>
> It is sad that it has come to a point where some people seem to have
> already built "projects" around importing plus codes in a way that
> everyone here would have told them is the least useful of all, had they
> botehred to ask! Let us stop the madness before it spreads further, and
> work on doing it right.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

Ok, enough of your overly polite, gentle feedback stuff, tell us how
you really feel :)

Cheers,
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-08-10 20:11, Frederik Ramm wrote:

The approach that I - and everyone else who applies the same logic -
propose, is:

1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
2. A clicks on the house to invoke the plus code computation function in
OSMAnd.
3. OSMAnd displays the plus code.
4. A tells B the plus code.
5. B enters the plus code into OSMAnd, and OSMAnd applies the reverse
computation function.
6. B knows where to go.

This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd to apply the plus
code computation, but libraries and code for that exist. This approach
does NOT require that someone else has added the particular location to
OSM before - it works everywhere on the planet. Also, this approach does
not require OSM to store all the plus codes.
OsmAnd already supports Plus codes. You can do exactly this already. No 
extra coding required.
Go to general settings, then coordinate format, then set 'OLC'. Then it 
will display Plus codes for any location on the map that you pick. It 
works fine for any object on the map, or even blank spaces if you want. 
No need for any specific tags.


Craig

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 22:26, Frederik Ramm wrote:

...
The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
map - be that the osm.org web site, ...


This is the focal point of this discussion. Do we want to accept the the 
Open Location Code technology at the OSM community?


It is clear that a plus-code can be converted to coordinates and vice 
versa by a formula. But that does not exist. I tried to enter a plus 
code into search box at the OSM.org, it does not work.


It works at Google Maps, but that village Zeze in Tanzania is not mapped 
yet at the Google Maps at all. But it is well mapped at the OSM.org.


brgds

O.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Barry Hunter]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM Oleksiy Muzalyev <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> On 10.08.18 21:07, Mark Wagner wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
> > Vao Matua  wrote:
> >
> >> Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
> >> to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
> >> can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.
> > Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
> > maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.
> >
> > I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
> > aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
> > late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
> > coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
> > township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
> > grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
> > billions of tags into OSM.
> >
> It is absolutely clear. A plus-code is generated by a mathematical
> formula from coordinates almost instantaneously, and vice versa.
>
> The same as say the binary code is generated from the C++ programming
> language, or words are created from letters, etc. It is just another
> layer of abstraction, which makes it easier to perform a task.
>
> In principle it is possible to write a computer program in assembler,
> the low-level programming language. But it is a bit easier to do it in
> C++, Java, PHP, etc. The same is here.



> It is easier to memorize a
> plus-code, to transmit over the telephone, to put it on the address
> plaque, etc.


So do that *now*. It works.

The 'receiver' just needs a program (unless they know how to decode in
head!) to decode it and use it.

OSMAnd is one example quoted that can ALREADY decode it.

https://osmand.net/blog?id=osmand-2-6-released

Support for Open Location Code (OLC)

OsmAnd now also supports the Open Location Code (OLC) way of representing
coordinates. OLC coordinates are a combination of letters and numbers, and
is considered to be handled easier than the traditional latitude and
longitude coordinates. Please read more about OLC here
. You can now also search locations via this
code in the Search menu - Address - Coordinates Search, there select 'OLC'
under Coordinate format. Also, the context menus of any location selected
now displays OLC in addition to Latitude and longitude.


Nominatim, or any other 'search box' or geocoder could just as easily
implement the decoding of the Open Location Code.

It's a tiny (in the grand scheme of things) but of code to add to the
application.







> Yes, it is possible to do the same thing with coordinates'
> digits, but nobody does it.
>

How many people do enter a coordinate in the OSM serach box? Apart from map
geeks not many.

With little effort the box could easily understand a plus code.



It doesnt need millions of tags imported into OSM database to enable it.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Blake,

On 10.08.2018 19:23, Blake Girardot wrote:
> I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
> adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
> forward.

Christoph was a bit harsh in his response but I think he is right on teh
fundamentals, and I urge you to reconsider.

As I have explained in another post just a few minutes ago, taking the
"adding tags to OSM" approach is a cynical form of aid - it makes people
using it depend on your aid. It wastes effort with those adding the
data, it wastes storage space in OSM, it has *nothing*, absolutely
nothing going for it.

The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
map - be that the osm.org web site, or the offline application they're
using, or the machine that prints a map. It would not be difficult to
modify e.g. the humanitarian map style to print plus codes onto
buildings, computing them on the fly, if that's desired. Doing this
means you develop it once and it is immediately usable everywhere by
everyone. That is the only sensible approach. Otherwise you'll be stuck
running one project after the other ("add plus codes for X community",
"add plus codes for Y community", etc.), and not only that: The generic
approach will automatically work for everything built in the future. It
can be used to address not only houses but wells, mountains, bays, even
trees. It is better in *every* respect.

We must let reason prevail here and not do something on a whim based on
a misunderstanding of how things work.

It is sad that it has come to a point where some people seem to have
already built "projects" around importing plus codes in a way that
everyone here would have told them is the least useful of all, had they
botehred to ask! Let us stop the madness before it spreads further, and
work on doing it right.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 21:07, Mark Wagner wrote:

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
Vao Matua  wrote:


Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.

Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.

I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
billions of tags into OSM.

It is absolutely clear. A plus-code is generated by a mathematical 
formula from coordinates almost instantaneously, and vice versa.


The same as say the binary code is generated from the C++ programming 
language, or words are created from letters, etc. It is just another 
layer of abstraction, which makes it easier to perform a task.


In principle it is possible to write a computer program in assembler, 
the low-level programming language. But it is a bit easier to do it in 
C++, Java, PHP, etc. The same is here. It is easier to memorize a 
plus-code, to transmit over the telephone, to put it on the address 
plaque, etc. Yes, it is possible to do the same thing with coordinates' 
digits, but nobody does it.


So people try to find another solutions for places which do not have 
street-name addresses, to create another layer of abstraction. 
Coordinates themselves are created from numbers and are also just an 
abstraction, but not convenient enough for most people.


Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

I am very surprised that this discussion is not dead yet. To me, this is
like one person saying 1+1 is 2 and the other person saying 1+1 is 3.
This is something that should not be a matter of opinion; this is a
matter of logic.

Vao, when you write:

> My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one.

that's totally ok, and can be done with OSM and plus codes, no question!

The issue is just: Should the algorithm that converts lat/lon into plus
codes be applied "centrally" and the result of the computation stored in
OSM (which seems to be your approach), or should the computation instead
happen at the point where a human being interfaces with OSM.

To take the example of OSMAnd and make it very clear, step by step.

Let's assume we have two people, each using OSMAnd, and one person (A)
wants to communicate to the other person (B) where they live.

Your approach goes like this:

1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
2. A clicks on the house to somehow bring up all tags the house has.
3. One of these tags is the plus code, because it has been added at
another time by a third party.
4. A tells B the plus code.
5. B invokes a search function on their OSMAnd, and OSMAnd searches for
an object that has the given plus code.
6. B knows where to go.

This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd (namely: evaluating
the plus code tags), and it requires a third party to have added the
plus code for the location in question beforehand. It also requires OSM
to store the plus codes.

The approach that I - and everyone else who applies the same logic -
propose, is:

1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd.
2. A clicks on the house to invoke the plus code computation function in
OSMAnd.
3. OSMAnd displays the plus code.
4. A tells B the plus code.
5. B enters the plus code into OSMAnd, and OSMAnd applies the reverse
computation function.
6. B knows where to go.

This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd to apply the plus
code computation, but libraries and code for that exist. This approach
does NOT require that someone else has added the particular location to
OSM before - it works everywhere on the planet. Also, this approach does
not require OSM to store all the plus codes.

The only thing that approach A has going for it is that if someone has
the means to access OSM, but has no means to invoke the plus code
computation, they can still read the plus code from the tag. But I
struggle to think of a scenario like that.

I think that approach B is not only better, it is the only sane
approach. Approach A makes users dependent on the goodwill of someone
who uploads all the tags to OSM. Approach B makes this "someone"
unnecessary. When used in a humanitarian/development context, approach A
represents the old style of making people dependent on aid (dependent on
a third party running a plus code import project), whereas approach B is
making users independent. Approach A is the wrong approach for everyone.

> It is interesting that this effort for
> addressing is being trashed because it is savvy technology.

You are misreading me and many others here. Plus codes may be savvy
technology (albeit I can see how the dependency on latin alphabet may be
putting some people off). Plus codes themselves are not under attack
here; what is being criticized is using plus codes to do "approach A",
and *that* is very certainly not savvy!

I and many others have said this a few times in this thread, and I have
the impression that it has not really become clear. I hope that this
lengthy post has managed to explain it, and I am sure that once you have
thought this through you will see that - *especially* from a development
aid perspective - approach A is the last thing you want!

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Jmapb]

On 8/10/2018 1:33 PM, Barry Hunter wrote:



But in the case of a long driveway wouldnt the address be attached to 
the entryway (so that directions etc, can route to the right location)?


This isn't very common, and there's no documentation of this practice on 
the addr or service=driveway wiki pages. (There is mention of adding 
addr:* tags to an "entrance/gate", but no suggestion as to when this 
should be done.)


From what I've seen, usually the house at the end of the driveway would 
get the addr:* tags, and the routing engine would route down the 
driveway -- or, if the driveway is tagged access=private, to the nearest 
spot on the public road, which is *usually* pretty close to where the 
driveway starts.


In your scenario, what gets the addr: tags? The driveway itself, or the 
intersection node?


J





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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 09:32:50 -0700
Vao Matua  wrote:

> Plus code can be calculated on the fly, but if they are
> to be used we will need to have hardcopy maps with the addresses that
> can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.

Plus codes form a hierarchical grid, so supporting them on hardcopy
maps can easily be done when the maps are prepared for printing.

I don't know if you're familiar with the UGSG topo maps, but if you
aren't, I recommend looking at one of the 1:24000-scale maps from the
late 1970s/early 1980s.  It's got three location grids on it: UTM
coordinates and latitude/longitude markings on the outside, and PLSS
township/range/section markings on the map itself.  Adding a plus-code
grid to the map would be no problem, and wouldn't require importing
billions of tags into OSM.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 20:46, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:

[...]

Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a
trial there.

I read this as "lets find some country with no sufficiently organized
local community to resists and push this nonsense idea of adding
encoded coordinates as tags to features there in a hope to sneak this
into OSM".  This is exactly the arrogant and abusive approach
what3words used for their proprietary system.

The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
of the whole geodata world.

what3words is a proprietary commercial approach. The OLC is Open Source, 
and it is used at the Google Maps for almost three years.


If OLC generating and search are implemented at the OSM, it would become 
sort of an universal open source standard.


As for using it in tags, if one clicks at another part of the same 
building the OLC code would be different. And what if one wants to have 
a constant legal address?




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 10 August 2018, Blake Girardot wrote:
> [...]
>
> Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a
> trial there.

I read this as "lets find some country with no sufficiently organized 
local community to resists and push this nonsense idea of adding 
encoded coordinates as tags to features there in a hope to sneak this 
into OSM".  This is exactly the arrogant and abusive approach 
what3words used for their proprietary system.

The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with 
a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and 
data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in 
substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if 
for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock 
of the whole geodata world.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 20:09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an 
address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway 
above)

Cheers,
Martin
___

There could be a psychological aspect to it too. Up to 40% of some 
cities are constructed without any planning permission meaning that 
theoretically these buildings are "illegal".


These people could not add addr:street= and addr:housenumber= for their 
houses at the OSM map for years, and all of a sudden they can add an 
address. They can have a true modern address, which is probably even 
better than a legacy system offers, which based on the laws of nature.


brgds

O.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Barry Hunter]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 19:02, Barry Hunter  wrote:
> >
> > another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to
> correct its location, the editor would have to remember to update the
> plus-code tags as well (not just the lat/long)
>
>
> this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an
> address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway
> above)
>

Haven't seen that example.

But in the case of a long driveway wouldnt the address be attached to the
entryway (so that directions etc, can route to the right location)?

The plus-code can be computed from that node.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot]

Friends!

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:32 PM, Vao Matua  wrote:
> There are several conflicting perspectives here.
> My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one.

I want to do this too and plus codes do seem like a good solution, not
perfect, but pretty darn good, especially compared to other options.

But something like this has to be done in conjunction with folks on
the ground who will be affected. OSM has a long history of small scale
trials of tags based on local context.

It also has a history of accepting tags that are sanctioned by
governments or international government organizations (confusingly
enough pcodes for example)

I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
forward.

That will also give those who are interested to add plus codes
programatically to the community developed applications and OSM code
time to do that, if they so choose.

Then we know how well both approaches work for different use cases and
generate some information on if pluscodes are viable solutions or not
to this problem and how best to move forward with them.

Let us find a local community that is asking for this and give it a trial there.

Respectfully,
blake

Last
> year I was living in a city in Africa ( 6GVW2FXH+4H) with a population of a
> half a million people.  None of the streets and roads have names, nor are
> there any house numbers in that city or any of the surrounding rural areas
> where most of the population lives.  As the population in Africa migrates to
> urban settings in the next few decades the cities will be expanding greater
> than governments' ability to create infrastructure, including addresses, to
> support the populations.
> Plus codes is a practical solution to provide addresses that are usable by
> both humans and machines. It is interesting that this effort for addressing
> is being trashed because it is savvy technology.  Plus code can be
> calculated on the fly, but if they are to be used we will need to have
> hardcopy maps with the addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to a
> specific location. Just because something could be done doesn't mean that it
> will or should be done.  If we provide easy access to an address as an
> attribute for OSM it will get used. I don't understand what problems would
> be created by adding valuable information to an address point.  So far I see
> no practical solution for giving an address to the billions of people that
> do not have one, just because a tag value has intelligence and practical
> value is no reason to throw it away.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:05 AM, john whelan  wrote:
>>
>> A simple stopgap solution would be a program that converted one to the
>> other where the result could be cut and pasted into another program.  They
>> are probably called apps these days.
>>
>> If you know the code it would give you the lat and long in a format that
>> could be searched by Nominatim.
>>
>> Grabbing the lat and long from the map and converting it needs a process.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:58 am john whelan,  wrote:
>>>
>>> I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and
>>> there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data
>>> already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.
>>>
>>> It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a
>>> JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on line
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, 
>>> wrote:

 Hi,

 Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
 > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
 > for
 > 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
 > (1800 points) as a test.
 > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
 >
 > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
 >
 > We did used these tags:
 > addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
 > addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is
 > a 1
 > degree by 1 degree lat long area)
 > addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used
 > with a
 > local name becomes the local address)

 There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
 automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
 already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.

 Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
 and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
 from latitude and longitude.

 This import should be reverted.

 Best regards

 Michael


 --
 Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt 

Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 19:02, Barry Hunter  wrote:
> 
> another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to correct 
> its location, the editor would have to remember to update the plus-code tags 
> as well (not just the lat/long) 


this only if you see it as location information, not if it is used as an 
address (the location where to go to, see the example of the long driveway 
above)

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Barry Hunter]

> It is interesting that this effort for addressing is being trashed because
> it is savvy technology.
>

Dont see anyone has 'trashed' the idea of using Plus Codes as such.

Just the bulk import of them as *data* to the core OSM database. Its
redundant data.





> Plus code can be calculated on the fly,
>

Exactly, the address search interface/gazetteer could show the address
*with* a plus code.



> but if they are to be used we will need to have hard copy maps with the
> addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to a specific location.
>

So have a fancy renderer than can render the Plus Codes as needed.

Never tried, but it should be possible to render special plus code aligned
grids on the map.


I don't understand what problems would be created by adding valuable
> information to an address point.
>

another issue with it being added as tags, if the node is moved to correct
its location, the editor would have to remember to update the plus-code
tags as well (not just the lat/long)

If want to find where a plus code is, a search interface, can just decode
the plus code, get a lat/long and run a standard geospatial query. That
works *now* worldwide, without any sort of bulk import of tags.

... as tags it would need a text index of the tags, and search that.

Apparently there are currently 4665583767 nodes in OSM, the tags mentioned
seem to be about 83 bytes long. That's 390 *Gigabytes* of data just to add
plus codes to them all.


A basic mobile phone could easily compute the location for a plus-code with
the algorithm. If had to look it up in this database would be way more than
390gb of data on the device! (or need an active internet connection to the
online database)




>   So far I see no practical solution for giving an address to the billions
> of people that do not have one,
>

Every single point on earth already has a plus code already. Its already
been assigned by the algorithm.

Just like every single point as a lat/long coordinate.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Vao Matua]

There are several conflicting perspectives here.
My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one. Last
year I was living in a city in Africa ( 6GVW2FXH+4H
) with a population
of a half a million people.  None of the streets and roads have names, nor
are there any house numbers in that city or any of the surrounding rural
areas where most of the population lives.  As the population in Africa
migrates to urban settings in the next few decades the cities will be
expanding greater than governments' ability to create infrastructure,
including addresses, to support the populations.
Plus codes is a practical solution to provide addresses that are usable by
both humans and machines. It is interesting that this effort for addressing
is being trashed because it is savvy technology.  Plus code can be
calculated on the fly, but if they are to be used we will need to have
hardcopy maps with the addresses that can be used to direct aid workers to
a specific location. Just because something could be done doesn't mean that
it will or should be done.  If we provide easy access to an address as an
attribute for OSM it will get used. I don't understand what problems would
be created by adding valuable information to an address point.  So far I
see no practical solution for giving an address to the billions of people
that do not have one, just because a tag value has intelligence and
practical value is no reason to throw it away.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:05 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> A simple stopgap solution would be a program that converted one to the
> other where the result could be cut and pasted into another program.  They
> are probably called apps these days.
>
> If you know the code it would give you the lat and long in a format that
> could be searched by Nominatim.
>
> Grabbing the lat and long from the map and converting it needs a process.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:58 am john whelan,  wrote:
>
>> I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and
>> there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data
>> already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.
>>
>> It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a
>> JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on
>> line use.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
>>> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
>>> for
>>> > 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
>>> > (1800 points) as a test.
>>> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
>>> >
>>> > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
>>> >
>>> > We did used these tags:
>>> > addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
>>> > addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is
>>> a 1
>>> > degree by 1 degree lat long area)
>>> > addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used
>>> with a
>>> > local name becomes the local address)
>>>
>>> There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
>>> automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
>>> already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.
>>>
>>> Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
>>> and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
>>> from latitude and longitude.
>>>
>>> This import should be reverted.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>>> ausgenommen)
>>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Mike N]

On 8/10/2018 9:01 AM, oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote:
Probably it is done so that plus-codes are known to local actors? 
Perhaps, local conditions differ from European ones to the degree that 
it is difficult to comprehend without being part of local community?


That is a perfect use case for a printed map or app that shows 
plus-codes on buildings or other POIs.  That can be calculated from the 
user's location or location of the POI as the map is being rendered.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

A simple stopgap solution would be a program that converted one to the
other where the result could be cut and pasted into another program.  They
are probably called apps these days.

If you know the code it would give you the lat and long in a format that
could be searched by Nominatim.

Grabbing the lat and long from the map and converting it needs a process.

Suggestions?

Thanks John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:58 am john whelan,  wrote:

> I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and
> there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data
> already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.
>
> It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a
> JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on
> line use.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
>> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
>> for
>> > 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
>> > (1800 points) as a test.
>> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
>> >
>> > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
>> >
>> > We did used these tags:
>> > addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
>> > addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a
>> 1
>> > degree by 1 degree lat long area)
>> > addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used
>> with a
>> > local name becomes the local address)
>>
>> There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
>> automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
>> already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.
>>
>> Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
>> and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
>> from latitude and longitude.
>>
>> This import should be reverted.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>> ausgenommen)
>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch]

Probably it is done so that plus-codes are known to local actors? Perhaps, local conditions differ from European ones to the degree that it is difficult to comprehend without being part of local community?In any case, I actually tried once to pass a location over telephone by telling the coordinates. It was accepted as a joke. No surprise, since there are different formats, negative numbers, etc.Best regards,O.Sent from my Huawei Mobile Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?From: Michael Reichert To: Vao Matua CC: openstreetmap Hi,Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:> The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for> 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village> (1800 points) as a test.> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224> > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.> > We did used these tags:> addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)> addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1> degree by 1 degree lat long area)> addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with a> local name becomes the local address)There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrievedautomatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which arealready assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculatedfrom latitude and longitude.This import should be reverted.Best regardsMichael-- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglistenausgenommen)I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

I would agree the import should be reverted.  The data is redundant and
there is a danger that it might not be correct.  The pure lat and long data
already in OSM can be used to calculate the code.

It does add weight to the idea of making them searchable perhaps with a
JOSM plugin and support in OSMand for off line use and Nominatim for on
line use.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 8:50 am Michael Reichert, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for
> > 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
> > (1800 points) as a test.
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
> >
> > The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
> >
> > We did used these tags:
> > addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
> > addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1
> > degree by 1 degree lat long area)
> > addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with
> a
> > local name becomes the local address)
>
> There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
> automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
> already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.
>
> Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
> and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
> from latitude and longitude.
>
> This import should be reverted.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 2018-08-09 um 22:48 schrieb Vao Matua:
> The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for
> 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
> (1800 points) as a test.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
> 
> The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
> 
> We did used these tags:
> addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
> addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1
> degree by 1 degree lat long area)
> addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with a
> local name becomes the local address)

There is no need for this data in OSM because the data can be retrieved
automatically from latitude and longitude (plain coordinates) which are
already assigned to anything which has a location on the planet.

Adding Plus Code tags to OSM objects is as useful as adding latitude=*
and longitude=* or any other coordinate system which can be calculated
from latitude and longitude.

This import should be reverted.

Best regards

Michael


-- 
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ausgenommen)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 10.08.18 00:13, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:


This is really cool to hear!

I am a big fan of OLC / Pluse Codes

I passed this thread on to the folks at Google Zurich who created it
originally, not sure if they still work there or not, we last chatted
in 2016, but I am sure they will be glad to stop in and answer
questions if I can raise them.

Cheers
blake

___

I read here https://plus.codes/developers that they work on 
implementations in other languages.


On the practical side, I know that a new driver at a delivery service 
may spend in some cases up to three - four hours to deliver one Internet 
order in a city (I had some interviews with delivery drivers). There are 
new apartment buildings which are not yet in navigators, some houses are 
several hundred meters long [1], etc.


This excessive senseless driving is not only expensive but also harms 
environment. I think it makes sense to implement the OLC as a practical 
attempt to improve the archaic (or absent) street-name & house-number 
address system, to start people realizing that there is a way now to 
specify the exact location over email and over telephone unequivocally, 
so no waste of time and fuel is necessary anymore.


Besides, I assume it was done already technically, - there is the pull 
request already.


About 50% of all traffic is one or another kind of delivery. The OLC may 
improve situation with traffic jams and CO2 pollution, which concerns 
all. If people start using the OLC massively, there will be, most 
probably, further attempts to improve it since it is Open Source.


[1] https://osm.org/go/0iaifBuGU--?m=

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

Think about what you have just said.  If I have an internet connection
available and I'm running JOSM how would I find them if Nominatim  wasn't
available.

Cheerio John

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, 6:28 pm Yves,  wrote:

> If those codes can be encoded and decoded offline, it should be dealt with
> offline by the client, not a server-side application like Nominatim.
> Yves
>
> Le 10 août 2018 00:04:56 GMT+02:00, Vao Matua  a
> écrit :
>>
>> I use Plus Codes with OSMand offline and it works well. If we are worried
>> about the number of tags we should remove all tags and convince everyone to
>> just use lat/long.
>> The ability to verbally tell someone a location like 47RP+XG
>> Dar-es-Salaam is much easier than -6.85748/39.28613
>> Suspend disbelief, sometimes new things are better.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:57 PM, john whelan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So if OSMand or some such could handle them in a search off line that
>>> would be acceptable?  They are generated from long and lat after all.
>>>
>>> My feeling is adding them to Nominatim is not a perfect solution as it
>>> implies OpenStreetMap supports them rather than something else but from a
>>> practical point of view it would solve a lot of problems.  Not least the
>>> idea that tags get added to every building with some sort of address code.
>>> How many different codes for buildings are we going to see?
>>>
>>> Currently locally addr: has number, postcode and street name so its
>>> difficult to logically say its one rule for one country and another for a
>>> different one.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 9 August 2018 at 17:40, Vao Matua  wrote:
>>>
 It is a good idea for the unconnected part of the world. If you have
 access to a website you might as well use three-silly-words.
 If you have a stand-alone app with the Plus Codes on the buildings then
 someone can easily communicate that information.
 Internet connectivity is not world wide.

 On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Frederik Ramm 
 wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
> > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample
> > village (1800 points) as a test.
>
> This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If
> someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute
> the
> lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code
> points all over the word.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
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> E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Yves]

If those codes can be encoded and decoded offline, it should be dealt with 
offline by the client, not a server-side application like Nominatim.
Yves 

Le 10 août 2018 00:04:56 GMT+02:00, Vao Matua  a écrit :
>I use Plus Codes with OSMand offline and it works well. If we are
>worried
>about the number of tags we should remove all tags and convince
>everyone to
>just use lat/long.
>The ability to verbally tell someone a location like 47RP+XG
>Dar-es-Salaam
>is much easier than -6.85748/39.28613
>Suspend disbelief, sometimes new things are better.
>
>On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:57 PM, john whelan 
>wrote:
>
>> So if OSMand or some such could handle them in a search off line that
>> would be acceptable?  They are generated from long and lat after all.
>>
>> My feeling is adding them to Nominatim is not a perfect solution as
>it
>> implies OpenStreetMap supports them rather than something else but
>from a
>> practical point of view it would solve a lot of problems.  Not least
>the
>> idea that tags get added to every building with some sort of address
>code.
>> How many different codes for buildings are we going to see?
>>
>> Currently locally addr: has number, postcode and street name so its
>> difficult to logically say its one rule for one country and another
>for a
>> different one.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 9 August 2018 at 17:40, Vao Matua  wrote:
>>
>>> It is a good idea for the unconnected part of the world. If you have
>>> access to a website you might as well use three-silly-words.
>>> If you have a stand-alone app with the Plus Codes on the buildings
>then
>>> someone can easily communicate that information.
>>> Internet connectivity is not world wide.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Frederik Ramm 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
 > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code
>addresses
 > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a
>sample
 > village (1800 points) as a test.

 This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make
>sense! If
 someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can
>compute the
 lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus
>code
 points all over the word.

 Bye
 Frederik

 --
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>E008°23'33"

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>>>
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/10/2018 12:04 AM, Vao Matua wrote:
> I use Plus Codes with OSMand offline and it works well. If we are
> worried about the number of tags we should remove all tags and convince
> everyone to just use lat/long.

There's absolutely nothing to be said against OSMand using plus codes,
indeed, this proves that plus codes can be used perfectly well without
adding them to the OSM database.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "remove all tags and convince
everyone to just use lat/long". Our tags describe not *where* something
is, but *what* something is, a feature certainly as useful in Tanzania
as elsewhere. The description of *where* something is does indeed happen
by latitude and longitude in OSM.

In some countries we add street addresses, but only because there's no
mathematical way to derive a lat/long from the address. If it were
possible to apply a formula to an address and arrive at a lat/long, or
apply a formula to a lat/long and arrive at a street address, nobody
would be mapping them.

Just as nobody should be mapping plus codes. Put the formula in the
device (e.g. OSMand) and you have plus code support for the whole
planet. No need to import billions of address points. It's faster,
cleaner, and less likely to break.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Vao Matua]

I use Plus Codes with OSMand offline and it works well. If we are worried
about the number of tags we should remove all tags and convince everyone to
just use lat/long.
The ability to verbally tell someone a location like 47RP+XG Dar-es-Salaam
is much easier than -6.85748/39.28613
Suspend disbelief, sometimes new things are better.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:57 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> So if OSMand or some such could handle them in a search off line that
> would be acceptable?  They are generated from long and lat after all.
>
> My feeling is adding them to Nominatim is not a perfect solution as it
> implies OpenStreetMap supports them rather than something else but from a
> practical point of view it would solve a lot of problems.  Not least the
> idea that tags get added to every building with some sort of address code.
> How many different codes for buildings are we going to see?
>
> Currently locally addr: has number, postcode and street name so its
> difficult to logically say its one rule for one country and another for a
> different one.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 9 August 2018 at 17:40, Vao Matua  wrote:
>
>> It is a good idea for the unconnected part of the world. If you have
>> access to a website you might as well use three-silly-words.
>> If you have a stand-alone app with the Plus Codes on the buildings then
>> someone can easily communicate that information.
>> Internet connectivity is not world wide.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Frederik Ramm 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
>>> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
>>> > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample
>>> > village (1800 points) as a test.
>>>
>>> This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If
>>> someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute the
>>> lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code
>>> points all over the word.
>>>
>>> Bye
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2018, at 23:57, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> My feeling is adding them to Nominatim is not a perfect solution as it 
> implies OpenStreetMap supports them rather than something else


on the other hand we are supporting proprietary, copyrighted systems like 
postcodes. If a location coding system is freely and openly available and has 
gained some traction, I feel we should try to support it.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2018, at 23:40, Vao Matua  wrote:
> 
> Internet connectivity is not world wide.


it is available everywhere, but you have to be able and willing to afford it 
(it might cost several orders of magnitude more than cellphone internet in 
europe).

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

So if OSMand or some such could handle them in a search off line that would
be acceptable?  They are generated from long and lat after all.

My feeling is adding them to Nominatim is not a perfect solution as it
implies OpenStreetMap supports them rather than something else but from a
practical point of view it would solve a lot of problems.  Not least the
idea that tags get added to every building with some sort of address code.
How many different codes for buildings are we going to see?

Currently locally addr: has number, postcode and street name so its
difficult to logically say its one rule for one country and another for a
different one.

Cheerio John

On 9 August 2018 at 17:40, Vao Matua  wrote:

> It is a good idea for the unconnected part of the world. If you have
> access to a website you might as well use three-silly-words.
> If you have a stand-alone app with the Plus Codes on the buildings then
> someone can easily communicate that information.
> Internet connectivity is not world wide.
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
>> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
>> > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample
>> > village (1800 points) as a test.
>>
>> This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If
>> someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute the
>> lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code
>> points all over the word.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Vao Matua]

It is a good idea for the unconnected part of the world. If you have access
to a website you might as well use three-silly-words.
If you have a stand-alone app with the Plus Codes on the buildings then
someone can easily communicate that information.
Internet connectivity is not world wide.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
> > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
> > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample
> > village (1800 points) as a test.
>
> This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If
> someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute the
> lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code
> points all over the word.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote:
> The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses
> for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample
> village (1800 points) as a test.

This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If
someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute the
lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code
points all over the word.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Blake Girardot HOT/OSM]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Vao Matua  wrote:
> The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for 17
> million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village (1800
> points) as a test.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224
>
> The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.
>
> We did used these tags:
> addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
> addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1
> degree by 1 degree lat long area)
> addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with a
> local name becomes the local address)
>

This is really cool to hear!

I am a big fan of OLC / Pluse Codes

I passed this thread on to the folks at Google Zurich who created it
originally, not sure if they still work there or not, we last chatted
in 2016, but I am sure they will be glad to stop in and answer
questions if I can raise them.

Cheers
blake

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Vao Matua]

The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses for
17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample village
(1800 points) as a test.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59213224

The Python code on Github works great to calculate Plus Codes.

We did used these tags:
addr:pluscode:full  (the 8+2 digit full Plus Code)
addr:pluscode:area (the first 4 digits of the full Plus Code which is a 1
degree by 1 degree lat long area)
addr:pluscode:local (the second 4 digits + last 2 digits which used with a
local name becomes the local address)

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Stefano  wrote:

> Hi,
> there's already a pull request
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818
>
> Stefano
>
> Il giorno gio 9 ago 2018 alle ore 15:45 Yuri Astrakhan <
> yuriastrak...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> I'm a big fan of plus codes, and even have a pending implementation of it
>> in the Elasticsearch (as an aggregation hashing function).  I doubt there
>> are any legal restrictions on using this - the code is licensed under
>> Apache 2, and Google states "Plus codes are free. There are no licensing
>> fees or other costs. The technology is open-sourced." at
>> https://plus.codes/
>> Not sure about the implementation complexities.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 4:35 PM oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch <
>> oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
>>> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The algorithm
>>> is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and available on
>>> GitHub [1].
>>>
>>> A plus code, can be generated at: https://plus.codes/ . It can be
>>> entered at the Google Maps search input box to find a location. A plus sign
>>> "+" is inserted in the code for recognition.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have an interoperability. For example, a customer
>>> uses Google Map, but a dispatcher in a Call Center the OpenStreetMap. The
>>> OLC has got some interesting features:
>>>
>>> "Open Location Codes are derived from latitude and longitude
>>> coordinates, so they already exist everywhere. They are similar in length
>>> to a telephone number -- 849VCWC8+R9, for example -- but can often be
>>> shortened to only four or six digits when combined with a locality
>>> (CWC8+R9, Mountain View). Locations close to each other have similar codes.
>>> They can be encoded or decoded offline. The character set avoids similar
>>> looking characters, to reduce confusion and errors, and avoids vowels to
>>> make it unlikely that a code spells existing words.The Open Location Code
>>> is not case-sensitive, and can therefore be easily exchanged over the
>>> phone." [1]
>>>
>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Oleksiy
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Stefano]

Hi,
there's already a pull request
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1818

Stefano

Il giorno gio 9 ago 2018 alle ore 15:45 Yuri Astrakhan <
yuriastrak...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> I'm a big fan of plus codes, and even have a pending implementation of it
> in the Elasticsearch (as an aggregation hashing function).  I doubt there
> are any legal restrictions on using this - the code is licensed under
> Apache 2, and Google states "Plus codes are free. There are no licensing
> fees or other costs. The technology is open-sourced." at
> https://plus.codes/
> Not sure about the implementation complexities.
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 4:35 PM oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch <
> oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
>> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The algorithm
>> is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and available on
>> GitHub [1].
>>
>> A plus code, can be generated at: https://plus.codes/ . It can be
>> entered at the Google Maps search input box to find a location. A plus sign
>> "+" is inserted in the code for recognition.
>>
>> It would be nice to have an interoperability. For example, a customer
>> uses Google Map, but a dispatcher in a Call Center the OpenStreetMap. The
>> OLC has got some interesting features:
>>
>> "Open Location Codes are derived from latitude and longitude coordinates,
>> so they already exist everywhere. They are similar in length to a telephone
>> number -- 849VCWC8+R9, for example -- but can often be shortened to only
>> four or six digits when combined with a locality (CWC8+R9, Mountain View).
>> Locations close to each other have similar codes. They can be encoded or
>> decoded offline. The character set avoids similar looking characters, to
>> reduce confusion and errors, and avoids vowels to make it unlikely that a
>> code spells existing words.The Open Location Code is not case-sensitive,
>> and can therefore be easily exchanged over the phone." [1]
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Oleksiy
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

I'm a big fan of plus codes, and even have a pending implementation of it
in the Elasticsearch (as an aggregation hashing function).  I doubt there
are any legal restrictions on using this - the code is licensed under
Apache 2, and Google states "Plus codes are free. There are no licensing
fees or other costs. The technology is open-sourced." at https://plus.codes/

Not sure about the implementation complexities.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 4:35 PM oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The algorithm
> is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and available on
> GitHub [1].
>
> A plus code, can be generated at: https://plus.codes/ . It can be entered
> at the Google Maps search input box to find a location. A plus sign "+" is
> inserted in the code for recognition.
>
> It would be nice to have an interoperability. For example, a customer uses
> Google Map, but a dispatcher in a Call Center the OpenStreetMap. The OLC
> has got some interesting features:
>
> "Open Location Codes are derived from latitude and longitude coordinates,
> so they already exist everywhere. They are similar in length to a telephone
> number -- 849VCWC8+R9, for example -- but can often be shortened to only
> four or six digits when combined with a locality (CWC8+R9, Mountain View).
> Locations close to each other have similar codes. They can be encoded or
> decoded offline. The character set avoids similar looking characters, to
> reduce confusion and errors, and avoids vowels to make it unlikely that a
> code spells existing words.The Open Location Code is not case-sensitive,
> and can therefore be easily exchanged over the phone." [1]
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[john whelan]

So you are talking about an enhancement to Nominatim I assume?

There is a process to request enhancements.

Cheerio John

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, 9:35 am oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch, <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Open Location Codes are also referred to as "plus codes".  Since August
> 2015, Google Maps supports plus codes in their search engine. The algorithm
> is Open Source, licensed under the Apache License 2.0. and available on
> GitHub [1].
>
> A plus code, can be generated at: https://plus.codes/ . It can be entered
> at the Google Maps search input box to find a location. A plus sign "+" is
> inserted in the code for recognition.
>
> It would be nice to have an interoperability. For example, a customer uses
> Google Map, but a dispatcher in a Call Center the OpenStreetMap. The OLC
> has got some interesting features:
>
> "Open Location Codes are derived from latitude and longitude coordinates,
> so they already exist everywhere. They are similar in length to a telephone
> number -- 849VCWC8+R9, for example -- but can often be shortened to only
> four or six digits when combined with a locality (CWC8+R9, Mountain View).
> Locations close to each other have similar codes. They can be encoded or
> decoded offline. The character set avoids similar looking characters, to
> reduce confusion and errors, and avoids vowels to make it unlikely that a
> code spells existing words.The Open Location Code is not case-sensitive,
> and can therefore be easily exchanged over the phone." [1]
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
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