Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

JonesBeene  wrote:


> In fact, no one in cold fusion has come close to Thermacore’s year long
> results with Ni-H - and that includes the P hero results in France -
> which are far short of Thermacore.
>

Those results have not been replicated as far as I know, so we cannot have
much confidence they are real.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Axil Axil]

[image: Ball-and-stick model of the phenanthrene molecule]

Regarding phenanthrene as a catalyst.

See post

http://e-catworld.com/2016/01/16/hexagonal-crystals-and-lenr-axil-axil/

The hexagon crystal; structure is special in LENR.

In Rossi's waffer design, he uses a thin single crystal mica sheet on
either side of his centrally located heater. Mica could make that
waffer LENR capable.

Holmlid uses graphite to form his Ultra dense hydrogen;

Cravens uses graphite in his golden ball reactor.

The crystal structure of Metallic water is hexagonal and is also LENR
active.



This hexagonal shaped magnetic lens produces a vortex of magnetic flux
lines which interacts with the quarks in matter by dorming instantons as
the fractional quantum hall effect does with electrons..

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 6:54 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:

> *From: *Jed Rothwell ...
>
>
>
>- This is just my opinion but . . . I suspect Pd is the active
>material in these experiments, and it always has been. Both Pd and Ni were
>sputtered all over the place in the old reactor, with glow discharge. It
>has a large display of plasma, which I suppose is sputtering metal all
>around… With the latest technique described in Appendix A, the Pd is
>deliberately rubbed or plated on to the Ni mesh.
>
>
>
>- I still wonder if Ni cold fusion even exists.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I fully agree that Ni “cold fusion” is extremely unlikely – since there is
> no gainful pathway in theory or in experiment for real fusion without the
> extreme gravity of the solar model … BUT … this observation is narrow and
> does not apply to “excess heat” using nickel to catalyze hydrogen reactions
> in other ways… such as those which Mills and Holmlid have described, if not
> proved.
>
>
>
> The proof for anomalous heat from hydrogen without fusion is as strong or
> stronger than that for cold fusion using deuterium and palladium. In fact,
> no one in cold fusion has come close to Thermacore’s year long results with
> Ni-H - and that includes the P hero results in France - which are far
> short of Thermacore.
>
>
>
> Plus… Mizuno’s most shocking results have been with hydrogen, not
> deuterium – and but with phenanthrene as catalyst -  where he found that
> hydrogen with palladium was no-gain unless phenanthrene was added. He
> considers this NOT to be fusion of two protons but with ash consisting of
> carbon-13.
>
>
>
> In short, there are several avenues for anomalous heat – probably many
> avenues - where the source of gain is NOT nuclear fusion of deuterium.
>

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

From: Jed Rothwell...

➢ This is just my opinion but . . . I suspect Pd is the active material in 
these experiments, and it always has been. Both Pd and Ni were sputtered all 
over the place in the old reactor, with glow discharge. It has a large display 
of plasma, which I suppose is sputtering metal all around… With the latest 
technique described in Appendix A, the Pd is deliberately rubbed or plated on 
to the Ni mesh. 

➢ I still wonder if Ni cold fusion even exists. 



I fully agree that Ni “cold fusion” is extremely unlikely – since there is no 
gainful pathway in theory or in experiment for real fusion without the extreme 
gravity of the solar model … BUT … this observation is narrow and does not 
apply to “excess heat” using nickel to catalyze hydrogen reactions in other 
ways… such as those which Mills and Holmlid have described, if not proved. 

The proof for anomalous heat from hydrogen without fusion is as strong or 
stronger than that for cold fusion using deuterium and palladium. In fact, no 
one in cold fusion has come close to Thermacore’s year long results with Ni-H - 
and that includes the P hero results in France - which are far short of 
Thermacore. 

Plus… Mizuno’s most shocking results have been with hydrogen, not deuterium – 
and but with phenanthrene as catalyst -  where he found that hydrogen with 
palladium was no-gain unless phenanthrene was added. He considers this NOT to 
be fusion of two protons but with ash consisting of carbon-13.

In short, there are several avenues for anomalous heat – probably many avenues 
- where the source of gain is NOT nuclear fusion of deuterium.

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

With all due respect to  various opinions I found (some time back) that the 
judgement of the group of Italian Physicists, including S.  Focardi  etal. very 
informed and likely correct as to the excess heat produced by the Ni-H system.

Bob Cook



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Jed Rothwell<mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 10:48 AM
To: Vortex<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

This is just my opinion but . . .

I suspect Pd is the active material in these experiments, and it always has 
been. Both Pd and Ni were sputtered all over the place in the old reactor, with 
glow discharge. It has a large display of plasma, which I suppose is sputtering 
metal all around.

With the latest technique described in Appendix A, the Pd is deliberately 
rubbed or plated on to the Ni mesh.

I still wonder if Ni cold fusion even exists. The claims for it seem to 
gradually vanish like a Cheshire cat. In my opinion, the most convincing ones 
are Kitamura et al. and I do not find them all that convincing. Here is the 
most recent one:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPjcondensedr.pdf#page=143

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

This is just my opinion but . . .

I suspect Pd is the active material in these experiments, and it always has
been. Both Pd and Ni were sputtered all over the place in the old reactor,
with glow discharge. It has a large display of plasma, which I suppose is
sputtering metal all around.

With the latest technique described in Appendix A, the Pd is deliberately
rubbed or plated on to the Ni mesh.

I still wonder if Ni cold fusion even exists. The claims for it seem to
gradually vanish like a Cheshire cat. In my opinion, the most convincing
ones are Kitamura et al. and I do not find them all that convincing. Here
is the most recent one:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPjcondensedr.pdf#page=143

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Adrian Ashfield]

Jones Beene,
I wasn't thinking of the Hot Cat but more of the QuarkX variety.  True we have 
little data about it and really only know that it is 1.5cm long by 6 mm dia., 
that it runs at over 2000C and has a resistance similar to silver.  I think 
that means it is a plasma.

Contrary to some on this forum I think it exists and will be demonstrated in 
October with a believable calorimetry method.   Time will tell.

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: JonesBeene <jone...@pacbell.net>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 25, 2017 10:28 am
Subject: RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...



From: bobcook39...@hotmail.com
 
The Mizuno and Rossi effects may only be second cousins, since D is used in one 
and H in the other.  
thought to be the ash in Mizuno’s and transmutation of Ni plus a little He the 
ash in Rossi’s.
 
From: Adrian Ashfield
 
Considering the Conservation of Miracles law, I wonder what the chances are 
that this is a kissing cousin to Rossi's E-Cat QX.  That he gets a higher COP 
due to the higher temperature he uses. 
 
 
 
Well, no scientist knows if Rossi has valid gain or not – but indeed, there is 
one striking similarity between the two which has not been emphasized 
adequately.
 
The interesting parallel between Mizuno’s latest design and the so-called 
hot-cat is that the reactor itself (in both cases) is heated externally via 
resistance heaters (inefficient) - but at the same time, excess heat is claimed 
to be measured far above the level of the input heat. That feature is 
counter-intuitive.
 
Mizuno uses a steel reactor held at much lower temperature and in a partial 
vacuum. Rossi (Parkhomov) uses ceramic but with embedded external heaters but 
provides no real calorimetry to bolster his claim. Mizuno notably adds high 
voltage internal electrodes (500 volts) but it is not clear if his design is 
really “glow discharge” or instead is “hot gas” like the hot-cat, or is a bit 
of both.  A characterization of “hot gas” would mean no real plasma, but 
instead hot hydrogen (or deuterium) in gas phase which is activated by a high 
temperature trigger and presumably enters into rapid cycling of 
absorption/desorption. 
 
Since there is no consistent low pressure ionized gas and no partial vacuum in 
any Rossi design it cannot be labeled as glow-discharge or even plasma-state. 
The similarity between the two derives from both having external resistance 
heating - which requires most of the electrical input - and both claiming that 
despite large power being used by the external heaters, there is net thermal 
gain. This claim cannot be substantiated by “thermometry” as Rossi would like 
to do.
 
Mizuno is able to make an arguably valid scientific argument for thermal gain 
by having an identical control reactor operating at identical parameters 
(except for the palladium surface coat). That kind of control makes his setup 
much more expensive to build – but importantly, much more convincing to believe.
 
Rossi offers no such duplicate control nor calorimetry, and Parkomov cannot 
repeat his former claim for gain, while at least 6 other similar hot-cat 
replications have failed to show any meaningful gain. In scientific terms, 
therefore, Rossi’s claim depends completely on his personal honesty. 
 
The big knock on Mizuno is that IH partially funded his work - and perhaps that 
is the key to the design similarity. Yet in court papers, IH states under oath 
that they witnessed no thermal gain - and apparently they visited Mizuno’s Lab 
in Japan months prior to the improvements mentioned at the end of the Mizuno 
paper. Was this simply bad timing?
 
Bottom line - when your own funder will not step up, then there’s the 
existential “to be or not to be” problem… 
 
….and “there’s the rub” so to speak. (apologies to WS) 
 
 
 
 
 
 

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

From: bobcook39...@hotmail.com

The Mizuno and Rossi effects may only be second cousins, since D is used in one 
and H in the other.  
thought to be the ash in Mizuno’s and transmutation of Ni plus a little He the 
ash in Rossi’s.

From: Adrian Ashfield

Considering the Conservation of Miracles law, I wonder what the chances are 
that this is a kissing cousin to Rossi's E-Cat QX.  That he gets a higher COP 
due to the higher temperature he uses. 



Well, no scientist knows if Rossi has valid gain or not – but indeed, there is 
one striking similarity between the two which has not been emphasized 
adequately.

The interesting parallel between Mizuno’s latest design and the so-called 
hot-cat is that the reactor itself (in both cases) is heated externally via 
resistance heaters (inefficient) - but at the same time, excess heat is claimed 
to be measured far above the level of the input heat. That feature is 
counter-intuitive.

Mizuno uses a steel reactor held at much lower temperature and in a partial 
vacuum. Rossi (Parkhomov) uses ceramic but with embedded external heaters but 
provides no real calorimetry to bolster his claim. Mizuno notably adds high 
voltage internal electrodes (500 volts) but it is not clear if his design is 
really “glow discharge” or instead is “hot gas” like the hot-cat, or is a bit 
of both.  A characterization of “hot gas” would mean no real plasma, but 
instead hot hydrogen (or deuterium) in gas phase which is activated by a high 
temperature trigger and presumably enters into rapid cycling of 
absorption/desorption. 

Since there is no consistent low pressure ionized gas and no partial vacuum in 
any Rossi design it cannot be labeled as glow-discharge or even plasma-state. 
The similarity between the two derives from both having external resistance 
heating - which requires most of the electrical input - and both claiming that 
despite large power being used by the external heaters, there is net thermal 
gain. This claim cannot be substantiated by “thermometry” as Rossi would like 
to do.

Mizuno is able to make an arguably valid scientific argument for thermal gain 
by having an identical control reactor operating at identical parameters 
(except for the palladium surface coat). That kind of control makes his setup 
much more expensive to build – but importantly, much more convincing to believe.

Rossi offers no such duplicate control nor calorimetry, and Parkomov cannot 
repeat his former claim for gain, while at least 6 other similar hot-cat 
replications have failed to show any meaningful gain. In scientific terms, 
therefore, Rossi’s claim depends completely on his personal honesty. 

The big knock on Mizuno is that IH partially funded his work - and perhaps that 
is the key to the design similarity. Yet in court papers, IH states under oath 
that they witnessed no thermal gain - and apparently they visited Mizuno’s Lab 
in Japan months prior to the improvements mentioned at the end of the Mizuno 
paper. Was this simply bad timing?

Bottom line - when your own funder will not step up, then there’s the 
existential “to be or not to be” problem… 

….and “there’s the rub” so to speak. (apologies to WS) 

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

The Mizuno and Rossi effects may only be second cousins, since D is used in one 
and H in the other.
thought to be the ash in Mizuno’s and transmutation of Ni plus a little He the 
ash in Rossi’s.

Bob  Cook

From: Adrian Ashfield<mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

Considering the Conservation of Miracles law, I wonder what the chances are 
that this is a kissing cousin to Rossi's E-Cat QX.  That he gets a higher COP 
due to the higher temperature he uses.
It will be interesting to find out more in October.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

Brian Ahern  wrote:

> Jed Mizuno hints that his new work has even more excess. Do you have any
> of that data?
>
Not yet, but I will report when it comes in.

I now have 3 spreadsheets for some of the figures in the paper. They are
not suitable for publication yet. They are raw data including columns of
zeros from data channels not in use. They have cryptic annotations in
English and Japanese. I will clean them up and have them ready in a few
days.

Everyone will see exactly how he computed the results in the graphs. You
can copy the spreadsheet and make your own graphs.

These spreadsheets are in Excel format. I am thinking of converting them to
a public Google spreadsheet like this one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CwBlnYM7IFRjYCQcJ0OGjt-vRbbzqvm6T2Uk4YYsii0/edit#gid=0

You cannot edit it, but I assume you can copy it and edit your version. I
assume the equations also copy. Maybe I should make sure of that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Brian Ahern]

Jed Mizuno hints that his new work has even more excess. Do you have any of 
that data?

He implies kilowatt levels with reproducibility. If true, this could break open 
the field as he is a factor of 100 above all other LENR efforts.


nanotexturing a nickel/palladium surface make a great deal of sense and will 
engender large vibrational modes in the deuterium sublattice.


I want to hear about his gas analysis.The helium levels should be 10,000 times 
higher than Melvin Miles' experiments.





From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:16 PM
To: Vortex
Subject: Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

bobcook39...@hotmail.com<mailto:bobcook39...@hotmail.com> 
<bobcook39...@hotmail.com<mailto:bobcook39...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Axil nailed the major question.

My conclusion about this omission is that open science is NOT in effect as part 
of Mizuno’s NDA with Dewey and others.  TOO BAD.

Jed may know more about this issue!

As far as I know you are wrong. There are no restrictions on what Mizuno can 
say. The only limit was the time and effort that went into the paper, which is 
a lot more than you might think.

If you have questions about the paper, I suggest you ask him. You will see how 
open it is. You might want to go through me, because I may translate your 
questions into Japanese, if I think they are difficult to understand.

The graphs in the paper are not the best data from the Appendix A approach. 
That is not closed science or anything like that. There just wasn't time to run 
that data through the mill. Also, Mizuno cannot do these experiments in warm 
weather because he has no air conditioner and he cannot afford to buy one, so 
the calorimetry goes to pieces. That tells you a lot about the funding for cold 
fusion.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Brian Ahern]

Who and what is happening in October?


Please don't tell me you anticipate a Quarkx demo. That will never happen. 
Never a real demo.



From: Adrian Ashfield <a.ashfi...@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 3:24 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

Considering the Conservation of Miracles law, I wonder what the chances are 
that this is a kissing cousin to Rossi's E-Cat QX.  That he gets a higher COP 
due to the higher temperature he uses.
It will be interesting to find out more in October.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Adrian Ashfield]

 Considering the Conservation of Miracles law, I wonder what the chances are 
that this is a kissing cousin to Rossi's E-Cat QX.  That he gets a higher COP 
due to the higher temperature he uses.
It will be interesting to find out more in October.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

bobcook39...@hotmail.com  wrote:

Axil nailed the major question.
>
>
>
> My conclusion about this omission is that open science is NOT in effect as
> part of Mizuno’s NDA with Dewey and others.  TOO BAD.
>
>
>
> Jed may know more about this issue!
>

As far as I know you are wrong. There are no restrictions on what Mizuno
can say. The only limit was the time and effort that went into the paper,
which is a lot more than you might think.

If you have questions about the paper, I suggest you ask him. You will see
how open it is. You might want to go through me, because I may translate
your questions into Japanese, if I think they are difficult to understand.

The graphs in the paper are not the best data from the Appendix A approach.
That is not closed science or anything like that. There just wasn't time to
run that data through the mill. Also, Mizuno cannot do these experiments in
warm weather because he has no air conditioner and he cannot afford to buy
one, so the calorimetry goes to pieces. That tells you a lot about the
funding for cold fusion.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Axil nailed the major question.

My conclusion about this omission is that open science is NOT in effect as part 
of Mizuno’s NDA with Dewey and others.  TOO BAD.

Jed may know more about this issue!

Bob Cook

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Axil Axil<mailto:janap...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 9:46 PM
To: vortex-l<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

Since the reactor has an observation window, the experimenters should also look 
at the spectrum of the light produced by the reaction. They should look for 
polarization and spectral line splitting as per the stark effect.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 7:22 PM, JonesBeene 
<jone...@pacbell.net<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>> wrote:

New Mizuno glow discharge paper

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTpreprintob.pdf


Of interest


  1.  Active electrode is tin amount of palladium deposited on nickel mesh – by 
simple RUBBING
  2.  Nickel mesh does not work alone


See appendix A on page 26. These details are easy to overlook.

Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when 
alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a thin 
coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine results already 
presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to coat the nickel mesh 
with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with the alloy – not the pure 
Pd.



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Che]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 7:22 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when
> alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a
> thin coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine
> results already presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to
> coat the nickel mesh with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with
> the alloy – not the pure Pd.
>


What is the theorizing behind this metallic synergy..? Is this, say, some
fine-tuning of the Fermi electron energy bands or something -- in resonance
with the requirements for cold fusion reactions..?

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: JonesBeene<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 9:00 AM
To: Vortex List<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...


Questions:

At  page 26 of the report  (one of the best/complete experimental reports I 
have read) says hydrogen is used   -" After a reaction metal sample has 
been fabricated,
the activation treatment, where the sample is maintained under a hydrogen gas 
atmosphere at high temperatures, dissociates deuterium molecules into atomic 
deuterium on the metal surface, and the amount of dissociated deuterium 
increases with increasing treatment time.”

Should this say deuterium?

Was there a measurement of helium in the residual deuterium after the 30 days 
of reaction?

Was the spectrum of the light being emitted measured for specific frequencies?

Bob Cook

___



To clarify:


  *   …But why not run pure hydrogen against pure deuterium, since there is 
less chance of fouling the D2 side, by using the other reactor?  The results 
would be most informative since we know that nickel alone does not work with 
deuterium. A natural suspicion is that nickel is taking the place of silver (in 
electrolysis cells where Pd-Ag is used). If excess is seen with protium – then 
perhaps Mizuno can get beyond the idea that this is the same kind of reaction 
as P pioneered. Actually glow discharge has been replicated many times but 
without great fanfare – see Naudin’s fine effort: 
http://quanthomme.free.fr/jlnlabs/cfr/index.htm


Going back 20 years (to the previous century) the original form of plasma 
electrolysis was called the "Ohmori-Mizuno Effect" and generally used a 
tungsten cathode in a liquid electrolyte with no vacuum. In this effect, 
thermal gain was demonstrated at high power and low COP in a plasma with both 
light water and heavy water. Mizuno then did many refinements, mostly using 
heavy water and then moving onto gas phase but he has or had patents 
(applications) for almost every permutation.

Liquid-phase plasma electrolysis is simpler to do but extremely hard on the 
electrodes and the runs are short. This is due to oxide ions and high current 
electrochemistry. Gas phase and glow discharge is more likely to be 
commercialized. Glow discharge is lower current which can operate for years - 
with the common examples being fluorescent 
lamps<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp>.

As for operating parameters, one can find support for many of these 
combinations being gainful in a plasma regime of around a few hundred volts.

  1.  Tungsten cathode – light water or heavy water – not glow
  2.  Palladium cathode – light or heavy water – not glow
  3.  Palladium/nickel cathode – gas-phase deuterium in glow discharge regime.

The last one is of most interest, especially if the gas is H2 not D2. But - the 
one combination that Mizuno mentions as failing – deuterium gas phase with only 
nickel as the electrode – no palladium is curious.

PLUS - If D2 is used, as Claytor is noted for doing – tritium is expected. 
Mizuno makes no mention of that.

This experiment may be the start of something very important, as mentioned - 
even if there is a long history of overlooked positive reports in plasma 
electrolysis. The high power level is almost demanded these days – several 
hundred watts minimum. There is ample evidence of gain in many different forms 
going back to the original Ohmori-Mizuno Effect (liquid phase) which is far 
simpler to pull off but probably not commercializable due to electrode 
degradation.

It would seem possible that the simplest way to move forward for those who want 
to approach high power glow discharge is gas phase H2 - so as to avoid tritium. 
Sooner or later – if Claytor is to be believed, Mizuno will look for tritium 
and find it.

.

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

To clarify:

➢ …But why not run pure hydrogen against pure deuterium, since there is less 
chance of fouling the D2 side, by using the other reactor?  The results would 
be most informative since we know that nickel alone does not work with 
deuterium. A natural suspicion is that nickel is taking the place of silver (in 
electrolysis cells where Pd-Ag is used). If excess is seen with protium – then 
perhaps Mizuno can get beyond the idea that this is the same kind of reaction 
as P pioneered. Actually glow discharge has been replicated many times but 
without great fanfare – see Naudin’s fine effort: 
http://quanthomme.free.fr/jlnlabs/cfr/index.htm


Going back 20 years (to the previous century) the original form of plasma 
electrolysis was called the "Ohmori-Mizuno Effect" and generally used a 
tungsten cathode in a liquid electrolyte with no vacuum. In this effect, 
thermal gain was demonstrated at high power and low COP in a plasma with both 
light water and heavy water. Mizuno then did many refinements, mostly using 
heavy water and then moving onto gas phase but he has or had patents 
(applications) for almost every permutation.

Liquid-phase plasma electrolysis is simpler to do but extremely hard on the 
electrodes and the runs are short. This is due to oxide ions and high current 
electrochemistry. Gas phase and glow discharge is more likely to be 
commercialized. Glow discharge is lower current which can operate for years - 
with the common examples being fluorescent lamps.

As for operating parameters, one can find support for many of these 
combinations being gainful in a plasma regime of around a few hundred volts.
1) Tungsten cathode – light water or heavy water – not glow
2) Palladium cathode – light or heavy water – not glow
3) Palladium/nickel cathode – gas-phase deuterium in glow discharge regime.

The last one is of most interest, especially if the gas is H2 not D2. But - the 
one combination that Mizuno mentions as failing – deuterium gas phase with only 
nickel as the electrode – no palladium is curious. 

PLUS - If D2 is used, as Claytor is noted for doing – tritium is expected. 
Mizuno makes no mention of that.

This experiment may be the start of something very important, as mentioned - 
even if there is a long history of overlooked positive reports in plasma 
electrolysis. The high power level is almost demanded these days – several 
hundred watts minimum. There is ample evidence of gain in many different forms 
going back to the original Ohmori-Mizuno Effect (liquid phase) which is far 
simpler to pull off but probably not commercializable due to electrode 
degradation.

It would seem possible that the simplest way to move forward for those who want 
to approach high power glow discharge is gas phase H2 - so as to avoid tritium. 
Sooner or later – if Claytor is to be believed, Mizuno will look for tritium 
and find it.

.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:

I am supposed to get some sample data to go along with this. It is not here
> yet.
>

Actually, it is here, but it is in an antediluvian format. When I get this
straightened out I will put it in a Google spreadsheet available to
everyone.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

From: Jed Rothwell

I am supposed to get some sample data to go along with this. It is not here yet.


In the mean time …

Many of us may have a wish list and perhaps if enough interest is shown – 
someone may try to replicate this soon. For instance, the inclusion of a 
calibration reactor is fabulous – there can be little doubt of the gain, even 
with air-flow calorimetry. But why not run pure hydrogen against pure 
deuterium, since there is less chance of fouling the D2 side, by using the 
other reactor? 

The results would be most informative since we know that nickel alone does not 
work with deuterium. A natural suspicion is that nickel is taking the place of 
silver (in electrolysis cells where Pd-Ag is used). If excess is seen with 
protium – then perhaps Mizuno can get beyond the idea that this is the same 
kind of reaction as P pioneered. Actually glow discharge has been replicated 
many times but without great fanfare – see Naudin’s fine effort:
http://quanthomme.free.fr/jlnlabs/cfr/index.htm

This experiment may be the start of something very important, if it is 
replicated quickly at the high power level.

The only place now with the funding and talent to pull off a rapid replication 
is the group at Texas Tech

http://www.iccf19.com/_system/download/abstract_poster/AP52_Scarborough.pdf

Unless Naudin wants to have another go at it.

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Jed Rothwell]

I am supposed to get some sample data to go along with this. It is not here
yet.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[Axil Axil]

Since the reactor has an observation window, the experimenters should also
look at the spectrum of the light produced by the reaction. They should
look for polarization and spectral line splitting as per the stark effect.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 7:22 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> New Mizuno glow discharge paper
>
>
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTpreprintob.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> Of interest
>
>
>
>1. Active electrode is tin amount of palladium deposited on nickel
>mesh – by simple RUBBING
>2. Nickel mesh does not work alone
>
>
>
>
>
> See appendix A on page 26. These details are easy to overlook.
>
>
>
> Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when
> alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a
> thin coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine
> results already presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to
> coat the nickel mesh with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with
> the alloy – not the pure Pd.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

Correction “thin” instead of “tin”




New Mizuno glow discharge paper

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTpreprintob.pdf


Of interest

1) Active electrode is tin amount of palladium deposited on nickel mesh – by 
simple RUBBING
2) Nickel mesh does not work alone


See appendix A on page 26. These details are easy to overlook.

Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when 
alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a thin 
coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine results already 
presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to coat the nickel mesh 
with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with the alloy – not the pure 
Pd.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

[Vo]:There's the rub ...

[JonesBeene]

New Mizuno glow discharge paper

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTpreprintob.pdf


Of interest

1) Active electrode is tin amount of palladium deposited on nickel mesh – by 
simple RUBBING
2) Nickel mesh does not work alone


See appendix A on page 26. These details are easy to overlook.

Speculation – Given that palladium works far better in electrolysis when 
alloyed with silver and given that nickel in this case only works with a thin 
coating of palladium, then an area of improvement (for the fine results already 
presented in the several hundred watt range) would be to coat the nickel mesh 
with both silver and palladium or do the rubbing with the alloy – not the pure 
Pd.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10