[Wikimedia-l] Re: Blocking anonymous IP addresses

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

This wouldn’t apply to the English Wikipedia. VPNs/similar technology have been 
blocked there for people consistently using them to vandalize. You can get an 
IP block exemption if you are both trusted and demonstrate a need for privacy 
above and beyond what most people need (for example, to circumspect government 
censorship, etc.).

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jul 29, 2024, at 9:01 AM, Paulo Santos Perneta  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "anonymous IP addresses". IP addresses usually 
> are anything but anonymous.
> They may have some degree of anonymity when they are VPNs and TOR nodes, for 
> instance, but  for your own security, unless you know very well what you are 
> doing, better treat any IP address you are using as something that can give 
> your exact location at the time you are using it, often up to the workstation 
> you are using at that moment. And that is usually logged, and can be checked 
> afterwards by TI personnel, the government, police, etc.
> If you want some degree of anonymity you should definitely use a registered 
> account (running over VPN or whatever), and never the IP address directly. 
> Using your own IP address is a severe privacy and security breach, which 
> should never have been allowed into Wikimedia projects even in 2001, and it's 
> quite mind-boggling why it is still there after 23 years. If at least some of 
> them are blocked, thats good. We blocked them all 4 years ago at the 
> Wikipedia in Portuguese and never looked back.
> 
> Best,
> Paulo
> 
> 
> Robert Levenstein mailto:rlev2...@gmail.com>> escreveu 
> (segunda, 29/07/2024 à(s) 02:22):
>> Dear Wikimedia Community:
>> 
>> I am writing to express my concerns about the current practices regarding 
>> the blocking of anonymous IP addresses on Wikimedia projects. While I fully 
>> understand and support the necessity of preventing trolls, disinformation, 
>> and vandalism, I believe that the approach to blocking anonymous addresses 
>> may need reconsideration.
>> 
>> It appears that IP addresses are sometimes blocked preemptively, based on 
>> the possibility of misuse, without concrete evidence of abusive activity. 
>> This practice, while well-intentioned, can inadvertently discourage genuine 
>> contributors who prefer or need to edit anonymously. The potential for such 
>> contributors to be excluded from participating in the Wikimedia projects is 
>> a serious issue that warrants attention.
>> 
>> I believe it is essential for our community to find a balance between 
>> safeguarding the integrity of our content and maintaining an open, inclusive 
>> environment for all contributors. I urge the community to review and discuss 
>> these policies to ensure they are both effective and fair.
>> 
>> Thank you for considering these concerns. I look forward to a constructive 
>> discussion on how we can address this issue together.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Robert Levenstein
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> , guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/LTLT6M366O42MYTNZ4TNT4FRX2MS4NOS/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/YDCHKRYS3EFE7QILCOTBMPBGPMSXOXHB/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GFDU32KV4GDRN2CR3CIWX4PQIERP2BYH/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Blocking anonymous IP addresses

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

I wonder what context made you bring up these concerns. I know sometimes 
several IP addresses are blocked because of IP-hopping trolls/harassers, etc. 
This can unfortunately lead to collateral damage, and it may superficially 
appear to be preemptive, but it isn’t.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her

> On Jul 26, 2024, at 10:41 PM, Robert Levenstein  wrote:
> 
> Dear Wikimedia Community:
> 
> I am writing to express my concerns about the current practices regarding the 
> blocking of anonymous IP addresses on Wikimedia projects. While I fully 
> understand and support the necessity of preventing trolls, disinformation, 
> and vandalism, I believe that the approach to blocking anonymous addresses 
> may need reconsideration.
> 
> It appears that IP addresses are sometimes blocked preemptively, based on the 
> possibility of misuse, without concrete evidence of abusive activity. This 
> practice, while well-intentioned, can inadvertently discourage genuine 
> contributors who prefer or need to edit anonymously. The potential for such 
> contributors to be excluded from participating in the Wikimedia projects is a 
> serious issue that warrants attention.
> 
> I believe it is essential for our community to find a balance between 
> safeguarding the integrity of our content and maintaining an open, inclusive 
> environment for all contributors. I urge the community to review and discuss 
> these policies to ensure they are both effective and fair.
> 
> Thank you for considering these concerns. I look forward to a constructive 
> discussion on how we can address this issue together.
> 
> Regards,
> Robert Levenstein
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/LTLT6M366O42MYTNZ4TNT4FRX2MS4NOS/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Z4BN7TNHLCSEFS33RF6T3YE3QIDI3CHO/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Urgent attention required because Commons is blocked in Pakistan

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

IP block exemption is already automatically granted to admins, at least on the 
English Wikipedia; it’s rarely needed enough that further automatic exemption 
doesn’t really make sense. VPNs, typically costing money, aren’t an accessible 
workaround, anyways. Let’s redirect attention back to getting Commons unblocked.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Mar 19, 2024, at 2:40 PM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> It's intriguing (to me) to contemplate how the notion of restricting IP 
> editing in specific circumstances is often viewed as a violation of 
> principle, even when supported by examples or data, yet a restriction like 
> requiring long-standing users to jump through hoops just to use a VPN for 
> privacy—something standard nowadays—is considered necessary and acceptable. 
> Both policies aim to address issues while weighing the pros and cons and 
> inevitably curbing some degree of freedom. 
> 
> Personally, I question the efficiency of the VPN restriction. I hold a 
> different perspective: implementing a one or two-year, 100-500-edit 
> registration threshold for automatic exemption of registered users seems 
> reasonable.
> 
> Nevertheless, it's important to recognize that nothing is inherently 
> necessary; these are always political and not technical choices. 
> 
> It's not just vandals ruining it; it's also the approach taken. By granting 
> trolls immense power to disrupt everyone's activities, you fuel their 
> mischief. Thus, every time these extreme measures are enforced and 
> standardized, they inevitably lead to wasted time and endless debates about 
> the status quo, and regular users pay a price. Not hypothetically, for 
> real we know. Whoever prioritizes the pursuit of trolls and vandals over 
> the work of regular users, de facto feeds the troll. 
> 
> It's important to clarify: as seasoned users, many of us have kinda learned 
> to navigate this "mess" and endure it... similar issues have been grappled 
> with for years, Commons management shows little sign of improvement and we 
> just don't care anymore.
> 
> However, for those who haven't mastered it or are stuck in some nationwide 
> quagmire as this one, suggesting VPNs as a solution is impractical—unless you 
> anticipate tens of thousands of users from a country with millions of 
> inhabitants to individually request IP exemptions. It's evident that the log 
> of such a system would not be sustainable.
> 
> I remain skeptical that an alternative solution will be implemented, given 
> the likelihood that the approach will mirror that of the VPN case or other 
> instances—utilizing massive and/or indefinite self-referential strict 
> measures that are seldom evaluated on the long term with some metrics.  
>  
> 
>  
> Il martedì 19 marzo 2024 alle ore 20:24:15 CET, Neurodivergent Netizen 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5BTBH6H4PEHX7CCUBYKUDKDXDC3VOAX5/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Unfortunately, there’s a history of an overwhelming amount of  vandals using 
> VPNs to, well, vandalize Wikipedia, hence the block on known VPN and the 
> bureaucracy surrounding them. If the block is removed, it’ll quite likely 
> become a problem again. It really is a situation of people behaving poorly 
> ruining it for everyone.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 19, 2024, at 12:17 PM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> That doesn't seem logical or fair. If a user is registered and not already 
>> blocked, the IPs they are using shouldn't matter at all.
>> 
>> Personally, I've never used a VPN before I got it this way (even living in 
>> the PRC), but I understand that some people might need to do so for privacy 
>> reasons. So, this restriction should be removed. Registered users should 
>> have the freedom to access the platform how they want. If there's an issue 
>> with a specific user, it's more appropriate to block their username rather 
>> than restricting their access when logged in based on IP addresses. Adding 
>> more bureaucracy isn't the solution if there isn't a problem to begin with.
>> 
>> In any case, nothin

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Urgent attention required because Commons is blocked in Pakistan

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

Unfortunately, there’s a history of an overwhelming amount of  vandals using 
VPNs to, well, vandalize Wikipedia, hence the block on known VPN and the 
bureaucracy surrounding them. If the block is removed, it’ll quite likely 
become a problem again. It really is a situation of people behaving poorly 
ruining it for everyone.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Mar 19, 2024, at 12:17 PM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> That doesn't seem logical or fair. If a user is registered and not already 
> blocked, the IPs they are using shouldn't matter at all.
> 
> Personally, I've never used a VPN before I got it this way (even living in 
> the PRC), but I understand that some people might need to do so for privacy 
> reasons. So, this restriction should be removed. Registered users should have 
> the freedom to access the platform how they want. If there's an issue with a 
> specific user, it's more appropriate to block their username rather than 
> restricting their access when logged in based on IP addresses. Adding more 
> bureaucracy isn't the solution if there isn't a problem to begin with.
> 
> In any case, nothing will probably change. But please don't say that VPN is a 
> solution. People have already enough problems that adding more and more 
> passages. 
> 
> Il martedì 19 marzo 2024 alle ore 19:51:42 CET, Neurodivergent Netizen 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> 
>> A few years ago, I acquired a VPN as part of an antivirus package. However, 
>> when I tried to use it for other services, I encountered an unexpected issue 
>> switching on wiki platforms: despite being there as a registered user, I 
>> found myself unable to edit them.
>> 
>> So how can VPN be a solution?
> 
> Right, you would’ve had to use IP block exemption, which would require some 
> level of trust from the community that you aren’t a vandal or other blocked 
> user trying to circumspect said block.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 19, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Why is there so much discussion about using VPNs as a solution? A few years 
>> ago, I acquired a VPN as part of an antivirus package. However, when I tried 
>> to use it for other services, I encountered an unexpected issue switching on 
>> wiki platforms: despite being there as a registered user, I found myself 
>> unable to edit them.
>> 
>> So how can VPN be a solution? 
>> 
>> A. 
>> 
>> Il martedì 19 marzo 2024 alle ore 18:17:52 CET, Saqib Qayyum 
>>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> 
>> Hello Mr James
>> 
>> Certainly, using a VPN is a workaround, but it's worth noting that obtaining 
>> an IP block exemption is still necessary to edit Commons, and this is not 
>> always feasible for all users. Many may not even be aware of its existence. 
>> For instance, I couldn't edit Commons since October 2020 until I discovered 
>> the option for IP ban exemption. . 
>> 
>> And because of this, contributions to Commons from Pakistan have 
>> significantly dwindled. For instance, I recall organizing Wiki Loves 
>> Monuments Pakistan from 2014, where we used to receive thousands of images 
>> annually. However, in recent years, the number of uploads has drastically 
>> declined, with only a maximum of 100 photos being uploaded each year. This 
>> trend underscores the challenges Pakistani users face in accessing and 
>> contributing to the site.
>> --
>> Saqib Qayyum
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:55 PM James Heilman > <mailto:jmh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Can you not just use a VPN?
>> 
>> James
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:29 PM Saqib Qayyum > <mailto:saqibqayy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
>> 
>> I am writing to you as a concerned volunteer from Pakistan regarding a 
>> critical issue that has been persisting for several years now. Despite 
>> multiple attempts to communicate this matter to members of the WMF's 
>> communication team, there has been a disappointing lack of response or 
>> acknowledgment.
>> 
>> For the past several years, Commons has been blocked in Pakistan. While 
>> Wikipedia was briefly blocked last year, the swift response from both 
>> Pakistani and international news media led to its unblocking. However, the 
>> blockade of Commons, being a less prominent site in comparison, has gone 
>> largely unnoticed.
>> 
>> Furthermore, several journalists I have spoken to have also express

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Urgent attention required because Commons is blocked in Pakistan

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> A few years ago, I acquired a VPN as part of an antivirus package. However, 
> when I tried to use it for other services, I encountered an unexpected issue 
> switching on wiki platforms: despite being there as a registered user, I 
> found myself unable to edit them.
> 
> So how can VPN be a solution?

Right, you would’ve had to use IP block exemption, which would require some 
level of trust from the community that you aren’t a vandal or other blocked 
user trying to circumspect said block.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Mar 19, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why is there so much discussion about using VPNs as a solution? A few years 
> ago, I acquired a VPN as part of an antivirus package. However, when I tried 
> to use it for other services, I encountered an unexpected issue switching on 
> wiki platforms: despite being there as a registered user, I found myself 
> unable to edit them.
> 
> So how can VPN be a solution? 
> 
> A. 
> 
> Il martedì 19 marzo 2024 alle ore 18:17:52 CET, Saqib Qayyum 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> 
> Hello Mr James
> 
> Certainly, using a VPN is a workaround, but it's worth noting that obtaining 
> an IP block exemption is still necessary to edit Commons, and this is not 
> always feasible for all users. Many may not even be aware of its existence. 
> For instance, I couldn't edit Commons since October 2020 until I discovered 
> the option for IP ban exemption. . 
> 
> And because of this, contributions to Commons from Pakistan have 
> significantly dwindled. For instance, I recall organizing Wiki Loves 
> Monuments Pakistan from 2014, where we used to receive thousands of images 
> annually. However, in recent years, the number of uploads has drastically 
> declined, with only a maximum of 100 photos being uploaded each year. This 
> trend underscores the challenges Pakistani users face in accessing and 
> contributing to the site.
> --
> Saqib Qayyum
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:55 PM James Heilman  > wrote:
> Can you not just use a VPN?
> 
> James
> 
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:29 PM Saqib Qayyum  > wrote:
> TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
> 
> I am writing to you as a concerned volunteer from Pakistan regarding a 
> critical issue that has been persisting for several years now. Despite 
> multiple attempts to communicate this matter to members of the WMF's 
> communication team, there has been a disappointing lack of response or 
> acknowledgment.
> 
> For the past several years, Commons has been blocked in Pakistan. While 
> Wikipedia was briefly blocked last year, the swift response from both 
> Pakistani and international news media led to its unblocking. However, the 
> blockade of Commons, being a less prominent site in comparison, has gone 
> largely unnoticed.
> 
> Furthermore, several journalists I have spoken to have also expressed 
> frustration over their attempts to reach out to WMF staff regarding this 
> issue, only to receive no response.
> 
> I urge the WMF to prioritize this matter and take immediate action to address 
> the ongoing blockage of Commons in Pakistan. 
> 
> Thank you for your attention to this urgent matter. 
> --
> Saqib Qayyum
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Saqib
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> , guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H5SMMTKRTUI5QLDKOCLZNWCABGDK3UHL/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> 
> 
> -- 
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> , guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/53DBHAHGEAWIH5VI2X7YMEWYSWDHCBXM/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/SPUJHE3YFDHS2OBQT6KTJOFK7WOSGDZF/
> 
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> ___
> Wikim

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Urgent attention required because Commons is blocked in Pakistan

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

While a good stop-gap measure, VPNs can be expensive enough that it’s not 
really a permanent solution. The ultimate solution is to get Commons unblocked, 
if that’s possible. Of course, getting it unblocked might prove impossible.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Mar 19, 2024, at 9:33 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> 
> Can you not just use a VPN?
> 
> James
> 
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:29 PM Saqib Qayyum  > wrote:
>> TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
>> 
>> I am writing to you as a concerned volunteer from Pakistan regarding a 
>> critical issue that has been persisting for several years now. Despite 
>> multiple attempts to communicate this matter to members of the WMF's 
>> communication team, there has been a disappointing lack of response or 
>> acknowledgment.
>> 
>> For the past several years, Commons has been blocked in Pakistan. While 
>> Wikipedia was briefly blocked last year, the swift response from both 
>> Pakistani and international news media led to its unblocking. However, the 
>> blockade of Commons, being a less prominent site in comparison, has gone 
>> largely unnoticed.
>> 
>> Furthermore, several journalists I have spoken to have also expressed 
>> frustration over their attempts to reach out to WMF staff regarding this 
>> issue, only to receive no response.
>> 
>> I urge the WMF to prioritize this matter and take immediate action to 
>> address the ongoing blockage of Commons in Pakistan. 
>> 
>> Thank you for your attention to this urgent matter. 
>> --
>> Saqib Qayyum
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Saqib
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> , guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H5SMMTKRTUI5QLDKOCLZNWCABGDK3UHL/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/53DBHAHGEAWIH5VI2X7YMEWYSWDHCBXM/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/QWJ6BVDBNZWEIJ7MVEB5VY6KAZHEFOAP/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Post-Wikimania Covid cases

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> It would be hard to know where you picked it up from. Certainly the longer 
> you?re in a venue, the chances increase but you can still pick it up in 
> locations you may have only spent a few minutes in. 

It’s difficult, but not impossible; contact tracing is A Thing, and can be 
traced back to John Snow tracing back a cholera outbreak to a water fountain 
pre-germ theory.

> I do not agree with enforcing testing, face masks and COVID vaccinations, 
> when countries have moved away from such restrictions.

A private organization, non-profit or otherwise, shouldn’t have to have 
permission from the government to enforce face masks. If an organization wants 
to enforce COVID precautions for their event, they should do so without 
conseqeunce. This may not be what you mean, the above statement might be more 
of a shrug, but such restrictions on enforcing COVID precautions isn’t without 
precedent; according to AARP.org <http://aarp.org/>, in Florida:
> A law passed by the state legislature May 3 and signed by Gov. Ron DeSantis 
> May 11 permanently prohibits private businesses and government entities from 
> imposing mask mandates. Local governments and school systems were already 
> barred from establishing mask rules and other COVID-19 restrictions under a 
> May 2021 gubernatorial order.
> 
From,

I dream of horses

She/her



> On Sep 8, 2023, at 4:55 PM, Robert Myers  
> wrote:
> 
> It would be hard to know where you picked it up from. Certainly the longer 
> you?re in a venue, the chances increase but you can still pick it up in 
> locations you may have only spent a few minutes in. 
> 
> There was an uptick in cases world wide around the time of Wikimania. I was 
> unable to attend due to work commitments, since my place of employment had 
> people off due to COVID. 
> 
> Wikimania didn?t have any requirements, it recommend ART/RAT, face masks and 
> to stay away from the conference if unwell 
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Health. PCR tests are now 
> impossible to get, even if you can, they are now expensive. Though I found 
> ART/RAT to be relatively reliable but just not as sensitive (T line would be 
> faint for the first two days of symptoms), when I got COVID for the first 
> time in March/April this year. 
> 
> I do not agree with enforcing testing, face masks and COVID vaccinations, 
> when countries have moved away from such restrictions. 
> 
> --
> Robert Myers
> robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au <mailto:robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au>
> 
>> On 9 Sep 2023, at 2:01 am, Lane Rasberry > <mailto:lanerasbe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> I got COVID at Wikimania as did my boyfriend Fabian. Our symptoms both began 
>> two days after the conference. I was sick in bed, hardly moving for 3 days. 
>> Both of us have been vaccinated five times in the United States and caught 
>> COVID one time before.
>> 
>> Completely unrelated, but back in the United States our housemates got COVID 
>> while we were gone. Also elsewhere in my town there are suddenly people out 
>> with COVID in many places, when for some time, we had not been experiencing 
>> cases.
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 11:03?AM Neurodivergent Netizen 
>> mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> I didn't attend but I'd imagine any event with international attendees 
>>>> would have a  increased chance of spreading covid, even if certain 
>>>> measures were taken to prevent that from happening. 
>>> 
>>> Nevertheless, there are measures that can be taken to reduce the 
>>> likelihood. Honestly, I need to disclaim the following by saying I?m not 
>>> sure what measures were taken; however, I think one of those measures 
>>> actually was taken: I think Wikimania was a hybrid event. Requirements for 
>>> both testing and masks might?ve helped; the more accurate COVID tests take 
>>> a couple days to process, the rapid tests are less accurate, hence the need 
>>> for both. Also, outdoor eating areas, along with purified and ventilated 
>>> air indoors would also helped. Requirements for vaccination would make 
>>> sense in a world where vaccinations were more accessible.
>>> 
>>> An entirely virtual option would be ideal in the COVID situation we?re in 
>>> (that is, a worldwide spike) would be the most ideal, but that?s impossible 
>>> to predict.
>>> 
>>> From,
>>> I dream of horses
>>> She/her
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 7:48 AM, Clover Moss >>> <mailto:clovermosswikipe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
&

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Post-Wikimania Covid cases

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

Testing for COVID is on the decrease. I wonder if all twenty are getting 
tested, or if they are getting tested, how inclined they are to tell others 
they’ve caught it?

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Sep 8, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Reke Wang  wrote:
> 
> There was over 20 Taiwanese people participated Wikimania, and only two of 
> them has told to others that they got COVID. The other 90% participants were 
> healthy I think.
> 
> Andreas Kolbe mailto:jayen...@gmail.com>> 於 2023年9月8日 週五 
> 下午10:44 寫道：
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I've heard from a couple of Wikimania attendees that they got ill with Covid 
>> after Wikimania Singapore.
>> 
>> Just wondering – are those exceptional cases, or did this happen to a 
>> substantial number of participants?
>> 
>> Best,
>> Andreas
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> , guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/7SSVTZ3GTWVL2L675BVQ3ODT4G3ORSKC/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/QO22W7DDPMDVFD63GHAC23SLQDPGNFBK/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/LFV4WEQJEZKZK4WZD3XTMJY4APB2YGY5/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Post-Wikimania Covid cases

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> I didn't attend but I'd imagine any event with international attendees would 
> have a  increased chance of spreading covid, even if certain measures were 
> taken to prevent that from happening. 

Nevertheless, there are measures that can be taken to reduce the likelihood. 
Honestly, I need to disclaim the following by saying I’m not sure what measures 
were taken; however, I think one of those measures actually was taken: I think 
Wikimania was a hybrid event. Requirements for both testing and masks might’ve 
helped; the more accurate COVID tests take a couple days to process, the rapid 
tests are less accurate, hence the need for both. Also, outdoor eating areas, 
along with purified and ventilated air indoors would also helped. Requirements 
for vaccination would make sense in a world where vaccinations were more 
accessible.

An entirely virtual option would be ideal in the COVID situation we’re in (that 
is, a worldwide spike) would be the most ideal, but that’s impossible to 
predict.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Sep 8, 2023, at 7:48 AM, Clover Moss  wrote:
> 
> I didn't attend but I'd imagine any event with international attendees would 
> have a  increased chance of spreading covid, even if certain measures were 
> taken to prevent that from happening. 
> 
> On Fri, Sept 8, 2023, 10:47 a.m. Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
> mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> I don't know if there's something statistically significant, but when I 
>> returned home, some of my friends were with COVID, and not me. It would be 
>> difficult to know if Wikimania affected people, or simply there's a spike 
>> worldwide.
>> 
>> Take care
>> 
>> Galder
>> From: Andreas Kolbe mailto:jayen...@gmail.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 4:43 PM
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List > >
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Post-Wikimania Covid cases
>>  
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I've heard from a couple of Wikimania attendees that they got ill with Covid 
>> after Wikimania Singapore.
>> 
>> Just wondering – are those exceptional cases, or did this happen to a 
>> substantial number of participants?
>> 
>> Best,
>> Andreas
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> , guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/XYG2N2EQYNPHMAHHJNEBIU5SI6KJQJWT/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
>> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GOEWPH7SFCMC4LIPDERR5XPLAUIBXRL5/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/JKRC5PSM3DZOU3EL5GXVSSCQS2AGLIR7/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia Foundation launches Open the Knowledge Journalism Awards on World Press Freedom Day

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

I know there are cultures in the world that regard English as a litmus test 
with regards to whether or not you’re educated, and was wondering if that added 
a layer of nuance to the conversation. However, this changed my mind:
> 
>> Q: My article is in French, Portuguese, Swahili, or any other language that 
>> is not English. Can I submit a translated version?
> 
> A: This year’s awards are focused on articles published in English. We are 
> not accepting translated articles.

While I share Cunctators enthusiasm about the Working Group, the decision to 
not accept even a translated article has an exclusionary impact regardless of 
intent.

From,
Emily
She/her





> On May 5, 2023, at 8:05 AM, The Cunctator  wrote:
> 
> While I share the concerns expressed, I'm personally enthusiastic about the 
> thoughtfulness and initiative of the Working Group. It might help to 
> explicitly mention the awareness of these language issues in the public 
> presentation of this effort. 
> 
> On Fri, May 5, 2023, 10:45 AM Andreas Kolbe  > wrote:
>> Hi Lodewijk,
>> 
>> In your reply to Olushola you said:
>> 
>> "I hope you can perhaps also clarify whether 'in English' means that the 
>> original article has to be available in English, or that some translation 
>> should be available in English."
>> 
>> As Shola hasn't provided any clarification on this, note that the FAQ[1] for 
>> the award states:
>> 
>> Q: My article is in French, Portuguese, Swahili, or any other language that 
>> is not English. Can I submit a translated version?
>> A: This year’s awards are focused on articles published in English. We are 
>> not accepting translated articles.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Andreas
>> 
>> [1] 
>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/our-work/open-the-knowledge/journalism-awards/#a5-frequently-asked-questions
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday, May 4, 2023, effe iets anders > > wrote:
>> > Hi Olushola,
>> > thanks for working on efforts like this. I think it's definitely our 
>> > African communities that should be the judge of what shape works best for 
>> > an award like this. Out of curiosity, as a way for us all to learn and 
>> > maybe for Africans among us who want to participate in this conversation 
>> > that you refer to, could you link to where this conversation/consultation 
>> > is happening? 
>> > I hope you can perhaps also clarify whether 'in English' means that the 
>> > original article has to be available in English, or that some translation 
>> > should be available in English. I think the former would be much more 
>> > restrictive than the latter, especially if some translation resources 
>> > (including community resources) are available. 
>> > Best,
>> > Lodewijk
>> > On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 1:48 PM Olushola Olaniyan 
>> > mailto:olaniyanshol...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear all,
>> >>
>> >> My name is Olushola (User: Olaniyan Olushola). I am from Africa and have 
>> >> been a Wikimedia since 2014 and passionate about language. I co-lead the 
>> >> Oral History documentation of Nigerian indigenous languages ( see more 
>> >> about it here ). I am part and parcel of the working group for this 
>> >> Journalism Award. Together with other community members and some 
>> >> foundation staff, we have co-created the submission guidelines and award 
>> >> criteria, including that articles should be English language articles 
>> >> published in a major outlet. 
>> >>
>> >> Everything regarding the rationale for this award is being done in 
>> >> consultation with members of our African communities, aligned with our 
>> >> goals to increase exposure for the work we love in the region and close 
>> >> knowledge gaps. 
>> >>
>> >> One thing to mention is that articles about Africa, especially written by 
>> >> journalists with a local perspective, must be better represented in our 
>> >> language Wikipedias, including English. 
>> >>
>> >> With this being a brand-new initiative, it was the best time to learn. 
>> >>
>> >> It is a pilot, and we all see this as an experiment to draw more 
>> >> attention to journalists' important role as content creators on 
>> >> Wikipedia. 
>> >>
>> >> You will agree that we need to celebrate existing journalism excellence 
>> >> that helps fill knowledge gaps online. 
>> >>
>> >> The working group conferred, and since this is a pilot, we decided 
>> >> together that it was a good idea to consider the need to limit the scope 
>> >> to collect data and insights easily. We understand the sentiment behind 
>> >> language in Africa and beyond, and we always wanted to keep everything 
>> >> simple. We know that no language is superior to the other, so this is a 
>> >> pilot. From here, we will likely assess the impact we can have before 
>> >> scaling. 
>> >>
>> >> We wish to expand this initiative with more regional volunteers should it 
>> >> succeed - and we hope it will. 
>> >>
>> >> We already have more than a hundred entries! 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

One concern I have is that all “oldbies” like myself have all seen bots 
basically decay after whomever is maintaining goes inactive. Of course, this 
could be mostly rectified by having the AI be open source. This leaves the 
“people” aspect; that is, not only does the AI need to be maintained, but 
interest needs to be maintained as well.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Dec 30, 2022, at 8:53 AM, Victoria Coleman  
> wrote:
> 
> Anne,
> 
> Interestingly enough what these large companies have to spend a ton of money 
> on is creating and moderating content. In other words people. Passionate 
> volunteers in large numbers is what the movement has in abundance. Imagine 
> the power of combining the talents and passion of our community members with 
> the advances offered by AI today. I was struck recently during a visit to 
> NVIDIA how language models have changed. Back in my day, we would have to 
> build one language model per domain and then load it in to the device, a 
> computer or a phone, to  use. Now they have one massive combined language 
> model in a data center full of their GPUs which is there so long as you are 
> connected. My sense is that within the guard rails offered by our volunteer 
> community, we could use AI to force multiply their efforts and make knowledge 
> even more accessible than it is today.  Both for those who create and record 
> knowledge as well as those who consume it. In the case of Chat GPT, our 
> volunteers could use supervised learning for example to narrow down the 
> mistakes the bot makes - which should be many fewer that the Open AI version 
> since the Wikipedia version would be trained on good, clean Wikipedia content 
> which is constantly reviewed by the community. 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Victoria Coleman
> 
>> On Dec 30, 2022, at 12:21 AM, Risker  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Given what we already know about AI-like projects (think Siri, Alexis, etc), 
>> they're the result of work done by organizations utilizing resources 
>> hundreds of times greater than the resources within the entire Wikimedia 
>> movement, and they'renot all that good if we're being honest.  They're 
>> entirely dependent on existing resources.  We have seen time and again how 
>> easily they can be led astray; ChatGPT is just the most recent example.  It 
>> is full of misinformation.  Other efforts have resulted in the AI becoming 
>> radicalized.  Again, it's all about what sources the AI project uses in 
>> developing its responses, and those underlying sources are generally 
>> completely unknown to the person asking for the information.  
>> 
>> Ironically, our volunteers have created software that learns pretty 
>> effectively (ORES, several anti-vandalism "bots").  The tough part is 
>> ensuring that there is continued, long-term support for these volunteer-led 
>> efforts, and the ability to make them effective on projects using other 
>> languages. We've had bots making translations of formulaic articles from one 
>> language to another for years; again, they depend on volunteers who can 
>> maintain and support those bots, and ensure continued quality of 
>> translation. 
>> 
>> AI development is tough. It is monumentally expensive. Big players have 
>> invested billions USD trying to develop working AI, with some of the most 
>> talented programmers and developers in the world, and they're barely 
>> scratching the surface.  I don't see this as a priority for the Wikimedia 
>> movement, which achieves considerably higher quality with volunteers 
>> following a fairly simple rule set that the volunteers themselves develop 
>> based on tried and tested knowledge.  Let's let those with lots of money 
>> keep working to develop something that is useful, and then we can start 
>> seeing if it can become feasible for our use. 
>> 
>>  I envision the AI industry being similar to the computer hardware industry. 
>> My first computer cost about the same (in 2022 dollars) as the four 
>> computers and all their peripherals that I have within my reach as I write 
>> this, and had less than 1% of the computing power of each of them.[1]  The 
>> cost will go down once the technology gets better and more stable.  
>> 
>> Risker/Anne
>> 
>> [1] Comparison of 1990 to 2022 dollars.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 at 01:40, Yaroslav Blanter > > wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> just to remark that it superficially looks like a great tool for small 
>>> language Wikipedias (for which the translation tool is typically not 
>>> available). One can train the tool in some less common language using the 
>>> dictionary and some texts, and then let it fill the project with a 
>>> thousands of articles. (As an aside, in fact, one probably can train it to 
>>> the soon-to-be-extint languages and save them until the moment there is any 
>>> interest for revival, but nobody seems to be interested). However, there is 
>>> a high potential for abuse, as I can imagine people not speak

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimedia MediaWikis for Blogging?

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was already an official Wikimedia blog. I do 
have a vague memory of one. However, I don’t believe it’s a wiki, just a blog.

There could be benefits to a non-Wikimedia wiki that’s used in a blog-like 
fashion, but I really don’t see any use for one that’s WMF-affiliated, given 
the drawbacks. The biggest drawback: The WMF is the most visible wiki-related 
organization out there, making all the other drawbacks that much worse. I doubt 
I’d perceive the benefits as being “big.”

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Dec 15, 2022, at 12:43 AM, Željko Blaće  wrote:
> 
> Are there any good practices of using 
> Wikimedia MediaWikis for Blogging 
> or good reasons not to do it? 
> (I see Meta/Outreach/MediaWiki.org
> have no Special:CreateBlogPost)
> 
> I see big benefits if blogging is about Wikimedia.
> Shortcomings I can imagine are potentially with: 
> vandalism, limited visual design + embedding options,
> Confusions with User vs. Main namespace…
> any others?
> 
> Best - Z. Blace
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/KYDR2MUOJVZDH2M7X7HWIXFLMHP4BTWD/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/EMFZSWCFB3NKKBBTFKQSLM6KC6CACDCQ/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Foundation Trust & Safety action in the MENA Region

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

Of course Wikipedia has an article on it. :-) It refers to “the Middle East and 
North Africa.” 
From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Dec 6, 2022, at 12:01 PM, Nathan  wrote:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MENA?wprov=sfla1
> 
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 2:59 PM Neurodivergent Netizen 
> mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Can you tell us what MENA stands for?
>> 
>> From,
>> I dream of horses
>> She/her
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 6, 2022, at 8:28 AM, Wikimedia Trust and Safety >> <mailto:c...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello all, 
>>> 
>>> On December 6th 2022, the Foundation undertook 16 global bans to users who 
>>> were engaging in conflict of interest editing on Wikipedia projects in the 
>>> MENA region. While we are  unable to discuss Foundation office actions in 
>>> detail due to legal limitations and for the safety of our communities, we 
>>> would like to speak a little more to this situation as it involves the 
>>> safety and security of all of us. 
>>> 
>>> As Wikimedia projects have risen in prominence across the world, it has 
>>> attracted increasing attention of those who would like to control the 
>>> information published on it, for political or other reasons. Community 
>>> members have addressed concerns of this sort for many years, but sometimes 
>>> volunteers who intervene in such cases may themselves face retaliation for 
>>> their actions. The Foundation does its best to support volunteers in such 
>>> cases, in order to preserve their safety.
>>> 
>>> In January of 2022, the Foundation began an investigation into alleged 
>>> conflict of interest editing on Wikipedia projects in the MENA region. In 
>>> that investigation, we were able to confirm that a number of users with 
>>> close connections with external parties were editing the platform in a 
>>> coordinated fashion to advance the aim of those parties. These connections 
>>> are a source of serious concern for the safety of our users that go beyond 
>>> the capacity of the local language project communities targeted to address. 
>>>  Due to the gravity of this situation, and in order to keep our users and 
>>> the projects safe, the Foundation issued these 16 global bans. 
>>> 
>>> Such actions can be distressing to those who know individuals involved and 
>>> to those who don’t. They can cause volunteers to mistrust each other and to 
>>> mistrust the Foundation and to be unsure if they can safely contribute. We 
>>> are unable to share more details about this situation due to the reasons 
>>> mentioned above, but we want to assure you that the Foundation will 
>>> continue to explore various ways to keep everyone safe and free to 
>>> contribute to the projects. We want to thank those community members across 
>>> the globe who address such situations every day and encourage all of you to 
>>> consider how to be safe in your volunteer activities. We recognize that as 
>>> we move forward, we will need to work with our communities to find a global 
>>> process to navigate safety challenges that allow such situations to be 
>>> dealt with as transparently as possible while also prioritising avoiding 
>>> risk to the safety of our users.
>>> 
>>> For anyone who feels unsafe on Wikimedia projects we encourage you to use 
>>> the local community processes or to contact us for assistance. The 
>>> Foundation and the community will work together, or in parallel, to enhance 
>>> the safety of all users whenever necessary with whatever means we can. 
>>> 
>>> To contact the Trust & Safety team please email  c...@wikimedia.or 
>>> <mailto:c...@wikimedia.org>g.   
>>> 
>>> Kind regards,
>>> 
>>> WMF Office/Trust and Safety
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, guidelines at: 
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at 
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/NJUOKYM2UTKFH53OKGIXW6OSEEDUI3AL/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org 
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> __

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Foundation Trust & Safety action in the MENA Region

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

Can you tell us what MENA stands for?

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Dec 6, 2022, at 8:28 AM, Wikimedia Trust and Safety  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello all, 
> 
> On December 6th 2022, the Foundation undertook 16 global bans to users who 
> were engaging in conflict of interest editing on Wikipedia projects in the 
> MENA region. While we are  unable to discuss Foundation office actions in 
> detail due to legal limitations and for the safety of our communities, we 
> would like to speak a little more to this situation as it involves the safety 
> and security of all of us. 
> 
> As Wikimedia projects have risen in prominence across the world, it has 
> attracted increasing attention of those who would like to control the 
> information published on it, for political or other reasons. Community 
> members have addressed concerns of this sort for many years, but sometimes 
> volunteers who intervene in such cases may themselves face retaliation for 
> their actions. The Foundation does its best to support volunteers in such 
> cases, in order to preserve their safety.
> 
> In January of 2022, the Foundation began an investigation into alleged 
> conflict of interest editing on Wikipedia projects in the MENA region. In 
> that investigation, we were able to confirm that a number of users with close 
> connections with external parties were editing the platform in a coordinated 
> fashion to advance the aim of those parties. These connections are a source 
> of serious concern for the safety of our users that go beyond the capacity of 
> the local language project communities targeted to address.  Due to the 
> gravity of this situation, and in order to keep our users and the projects 
> safe, the Foundation issued these 16 global bans. 
> 
> Such actions can be distressing to those who know individuals involved and to 
> those who don’t. They can cause volunteers to mistrust each other and to 
> mistrust the Foundation and to be unsure if they can safely contribute. We 
> are unable to share more details about this situation due to the reasons 
> mentioned above, but we want to assure you that the Foundation will continue 
> to explore various ways to keep everyone safe and free to contribute to the 
> projects. We want to thank those community members across the globe who 
> address such situations every day and encourage all of you to consider how to 
> be safe in your volunteer activities. We recognize that as we move forward, 
> we will need to work with our communities to find a global process to 
> navigate safety challenges that allow such situations to be dealt with as 
> transparently as possible while also prioritising avoiding risk to the safety 
> of our users.
> 
> For anyone who feels unsafe on Wikimedia projects we encourage you to use the 
> local community processes or to contact us for assistance. The Foundation and 
> the community will work together, or in parallel, to enhance the safety of 
> all users whenever necessary with whatever means we can. 
> 
> To contact the Trust & Safety team please email  c...@wikimedia.or 
> g.   
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> WMF Office/Trust and Safety
> 
> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/NJUOKYM2UTKFH53OKGIXW6OSEEDUI3AL/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/SOYG4CIA6H7WMAMWGRZWT3HJXPFEFVCJ/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> At the same time, I think it is absolutely necessary
> to pursue a project like that of Txikipedia, i.e. the possibility of
> having the same wikipedia page written in different languages.

Wikipedia has had some difficulty translating from language to language itself 
in years past, though it’s likely that the situation has improved somewhat. I’m 
woefully monolingual in English, but sometimes when I’ve looked at other, 
non-English articles, they were much, much shorter than the English equivalent. 
This is something we also struggle with, or we at least have struggled with it.

>  For example, a (wiki) encyclopedia
> addresses dyslexics with videos, avoiding writing, eventually
> dyslexics learn to read with more appropriate texts and in suitable
> contexts.

A non-editable encyclopedia can also be online and have videos for people with 
print disabilities. Of course, I’m biased towards an editable encyclopedia, but 
I didn’t want that to get in the way of stating a fact.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:09 AM, matteo ruffoni  wrote:
> 
> I have tried to read all the interventions of this very interesting 
> discussion.
> I work a lot in Italian Vikidia with my students (11 years old) and I
> believe that one of Vikidia's roles is also, not the only one, that of
> involving the very young in the wiki world. Maybe they will become
> wikipedians  At the same time, I think it is absolutely necessary
> to pursue a project like that of Txikipedia, i.e. the possibility of
> having the same wikipedia page written in different languages.
> Wikipedia, like all digital knowledge, should not be based on the
> "old" paper encyclopedias. For example, a (wiki) encyclopedia
> addresses dyslexics with videos, avoiding writing, eventually
> dyslexics learn to read with more appropriate texts and in suitable
> contexts.
> Grazie tantissimo a tutti Matteo
> 
> Il giorno sab 25 giu 2022 alle ore 00:49 Neurodivergent Netizen
>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> How could we say we velcome young editors and require that they conceal that 
>> they are young?
>> 
>> 
>> We manage to do exactly that, even though we, too, can guess with some 
>> imperfect accuracy, that certain people are in fact children.
>> 
>> I just share an idea for anybody to possibly take it or elaborate his own 
>> from it!
>> 
>> 
>> Yeah, I doubt anyone is going to create a kids-only encyclopedia as 
>> successful as yours, and I think few here would be open to the idea. You’d 
>> probably have better success collaborating with school districts and similar 
>> organizations.
>> 
>> From,
>> I dream of horses
>> She/her
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 24, 2022, at 3:42 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, Vikidia editors are allowed (not required) to tell their age on their 
>> user page. In the long run (or not so long), other users would roughly guess 
>> it anyway. We get to know each other online and I guess it helps the 
>> communication to know the age group to which belong the people you're 
>> talking with.
>> How could we say we velcome young editors and require that they conceal that 
>> they are young?
>> 
>> No, I don't want money from the WMF or somebody else, for I am no more in 
>> charge of the Vikidia association, and I never planned to take in charge 
>> myself the kind of project I tell about. I just share an idea for anybody to 
>> possibly take it or elaborate his own from it!
>> 
>> 
>> Envoyé: vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 23:21
>> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" 
>> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
>> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>> 
>> When I had a look to the most viewed articles (not exactly recently) I had 
>> the impression that it actually reach one of its goal that is to be a 
>> resource for non native english speaker (that moreover don't have a well 
>> developped Wikipedia in their native language, such as indians of a minority 
>> language). Yet it wasn't children interest or school curriculum subjects 
>> that were much viewed but rather adult topics.
>> 
>> 
>> We could fix that by dedicating time to subjects children would learn in 
>> school. We don’t need a separate wiki.
>> 
>> 
>> However, regular users have in mind that the age told by any user isn't 
>> verified.
>> 
>> One of the findings of fact in 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children%27s_privacy
>>  is that:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Self-ident

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> How could we say we velcome young editors and require that they conceal that 
> they are young?

We manage to do exactly that, even though we, too, can guess with some 
imperfect accuracy, that certain people are in fact children.

> I just share an idea for anybody to possibly take it or elaborate his own 
> from it!

Yeah, I doubt anyone is going to create a kids-only encyclopedia as successful 
as yours, and I think few here would be open to the idea. You’d probably have 
better success collaborating with school districts and similar organizations.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 3:42 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Yes, Vikidia editors are allowed (not required) to tell their age on their 
> user page. In the long run (or not so long), other users would roughly guess 
> it anyway. We get to know each other online and I guess it helps the 
> communication to know the age group to which belong the people you're talking 
> with.
> How could we say we velcome young editors and require that they conceal that 
> they are young?
>  
> No, I don't want money from the WMF or somebody else, for I am no more in 
> charge of the Vikidia association, and I never planned to take in charge 
> myself the kind of project I tell about. I just share an idea for anybody to 
> possibly take it or elaborate his own from it!
>  
>  
> Envoyé: vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 23:21
> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" 
> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> When I had a look to the most viewed articles (not exactly recently) I had 
> the impression that it actually reach one of its goal that is to be a 
> resource for non native english speaker (that moreover don't have a well 
> developped Wikipedia in their native language, such as indians of a minority 
> language). Yet it wasn't children interest or school curriculum subjects that 
> were much viewed but rather adult topics.
>  
> We could fix that by dedicating time to subjects children would learn in 
> school. We don’t need a separate wiki.
>  
> However, regular users have in mind that the age told by any user isn't 
> verified.
> One of the findings of fact in  
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children's_privacy>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children%27s_privacy
>  
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children's_privacy>
>  is that:
>  
>  
> Self-identified children may be children, adult predators, trolls 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)>(→) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)?action=edit>, adult 
> privacy-watchers testing our policies, or law enforcement personnel. 
>  
> So they might be children, child abusers, adults lying because they think 
> it’s funny, people looking to bring down the reputation of websites that 
> don’t respect the privacy of children, or a police officer that can arrest 
> someone in real life. All of these bring up different issues as to the safety 
> of children and the reputation of the adults that want to help them. This is 
> why the arbitration committee decided this was the best option for editors 
> who might actually be children:
>  
> Users who appear to be children editing in good faith who disclose 
> identifying personal information may be appropriately counseled. Deletion and 
> oversight may be used in appropriate cases to remove the information.
>  
> In other words, kids aren’t allowed to disclose their age. Of course, people 
> editing in bad faith would be blocked, anyways. Are you saying that kids are 
> allowed to disclose age on Wikikids?
>  
> We disable the e-mail function from one's user account to another, so there 
> is no private message unless one editor would have displayed his e-mail 
> adress or on account on another social media.
> That’s going to add an obstacle to writing to oversight and the emergency 
> team that intervenes when someone threatens suicide or homicide, along with a 
> few other teams that have a “role account” that takes advantage of the “email 
> this user” feature.
>  
> I mean that if by chance someone or an organisation would want to developp a 
> free documentary resource for children and would be eager to invest in it, 
> there would be a way to do it: there is allready a base of articles in some 
> Vikidia versions like the english one and an organisation that proved to be 
> sustainable (actually very closed to the one of Wikipedia), then some funds 
> would allow to catch up the time of "organic growth" that some wiki 
&

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> When I had a look to the most viewed articles (not exactly recently) I had 
> the impression that it actually reach one of its goal that is to be a 
> resource for non native english speaker (that moreover don't have a well 
> developped Wikipedia in their native language, such as indians of a minority 
> language). Yet it wasn't children interest or school curriculum subjects that 
> were much viewed but rather adult topics.

We could fix that by dedicating time to subjects children would learn in 
school. We don’t need a separate wiki.

> However, regular users have in mind that the age told by any user isn't 
> verified.

One of the findings of fact in  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children%27s_privacy
 

 is that:

> Self-identified children may be children, adult predators, trolls 
> (→) 
> , adult 
> privacy-watchers testing our policies, or law enforcement personnel. 

So they might be children, child abusers, adults lying because they think it’s 
funny, people looking to bring down the reputation of websites that don’t 
respect the privacy of children, or a police officer that can arrest someone in 
real life. All of these bring up different issues as to the safety of children 
and the reputation of the adults that want to help them. This is why the 
arbitration committee decided this was the best option for editors who might 
actually be children:

> Users who appear to be children editing in good faith who disclose 
> identifying personal information may be appropriately counseled. Deletion and 
> oversight may be used in appropriate cases to remove the information.

In other words, kids aren’t allowed to disclose their age. Of course, people 
editing in bad faith would be blocked, anyways. Are you saying that kids are 
allowed to disclose age on Wikikids?

> We disable the e-mail function from one's user account to another, so there 
> is no private message unless one editor would have displayed his e-mail 
> adress or on account on another social media.

That’s going to add an obstacle to writing to oversight and the emergency team 
that intervenes when someone threatens suicide or homicide, along with a few 
other teams that have a “role account” that takes advantage of the “email this 
user” feature.

> I mean that if by chance someone or an organisation would want to developp a 
> free documentary resource for children and would be eager to invest in it, 
> there would be a way to do it: there is allready a base of articles in some 
> Vikidia versions like the english one and an organisation that proved to be 
> sustainable (actually very closed to the one of Wikipedia), then some funds 
> would allow to catch up the time of "organic growth" that some wiki 
> encyclopedia for children had. I guess it would be promotion, communication, 
> and possibly paid translation to get the most interesting, best quality, most 
> usefull articles from several wikis for children and from Simple English 
> Wikipedia (with some data analysis/study to identify and select them), to get 
> a core of say 2,000 or 5,000 or 10,000 articles in one language. It would be 
> quite a big operation, but it may be worth the investment. Getting a quality 
> free encyclopedia for children in a matter of months.

Are you saying you want money from the WMF? Or someone affiliated with the WMF?

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 2:06 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
>> 
>> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
>> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
>> so compelling for them.
>> How is Simple English Wikipedia not compelling for kids? Define “not 
>> compelling.”
> 
> Well, I didn't closely study SEWP, so I may be unfair, that's rather my 
> impressions :
> The main rule is the simple language rather than explain a subject in a 
> accessible way, so you can have long and not so accessible articles in simple 
> language.
> When I had a look to the most viewed articles (not exactly recently) I had 
> the impression that it actually reach one of its goal that is to be a 
> resource for non native english speaker (that moreover don't have a well 
> developped Wikipedia in their native language, such as indians of a minority 
> language). Yet it wasn't children interest or school curriculum subjects that 
> were much viewed but rather adult topics.
>  
>> 
>> I took a look at Vikidia, thought I could do something for them, signed up 
>> with an account, read what I could find of the guidance, and created an 
>> article on Underwater diving, following the rules as I understood them, 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be to let appear 
> the kid equivalent article in the "In other projects" section.
>  
> Or maybe a very active work both in promotion and gathering a substantial set 
> of core articles (picking the best/most usefull, most viewed articles from 
> several kids wikis and Simple English Wikipedia, translating...)
>  
> **
> *- the original "Wikikids" proposal as a Wikimedia project was made by german 
> speaking wikipedians in early 2005 : 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html 
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html> 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757 
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757> but was 
> chilled down by the reactions on this list...
> - Grundschulwiki was launched in december 2005, it still exists but is 
> restricted to works done in primary classroom and therefore is not much 
> developped : 
> https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history
>  
> <https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history>
> - a 2010 project ended as they were told to request a Simple German Wikipedia 
> and then denied to open it: 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht
>  
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3
>  
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3>
> Meanwhile Wikikids.nl <http://wikikids.nl/> was launched in March 2006 and 
> Vikidia in French in November 2006.
>  
>   
> Envoyé: jeudi 23 juin 2022 à 21:15
> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen"  <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List"  <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
> Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people 
> who aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few 
> “internet hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, 
> change en to simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very 
> general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.
>  
> Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English 
> Wikipedias’ activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; 
> I suspect kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on 
> Simple before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that 
> might require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think 
> Simple would certainly be a good place to start making Wikipedia more 
> accessible to 8-10 year olds.
>   
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
>  
> 
>  
>   
> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour  <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>   
> Hi,
>   
>  De: "WereSpielChequers"  <mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>>
>> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
>> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
>> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
>> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in 
>> London.
>> 
>> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
>> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
> 
> There is one thing that is sure, that "one single childrens' encyclopaedia" 
> is a great step for children (and often teenagers and older people) than 
> having just Wikipedia available, and they love it.
>   
> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
> jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
> be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
> issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for 
> those who wish to create childrens' versions.
> 
> Yet there is not realistic hopes that the language of Wikipedia will change 
> to be easier. That wouldn't address the fact the articles on general subjects 
> are among the longest ones.
> It sounds a bit weird that a content for 12 yo would not fit well for a 8 yo, 
> a

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

Is that one sentence at least backed up by a source that confirms the 
information? Were the stubs possibly created by a bot instead of human? (Hey, 
it’s happened before!) If the answers to the questions I asked were “No” and 
“Yes,” then it reflects even worse on the quality of articles written by 
children. Quality is better than quantity.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 2:45 AM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:
> 
> As in Wikipedia language versions, article numbers don't count.
> Wikikids has many "articles" that consist only of one or two
> sentences. That makes it easy to reach tenthousands of "articles". :-)
> https://wikikids.nl/Seks_museum
> Kind regards
> Ziko
> 
> Am Fr., 24. Juni 2022 um 11:42 Uhr schrieb Mathias Damour
> :
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> You may compare :
>> - Grundschulwiki in german, launched in december 2005 with institutionnal 
>> support and enought visibility I guess, restricted to articles produced by 
>> the schools : 1,134 articles today : 
>> https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/wiki/Hauptseite
>> - Wikikids.nl in Dutch, launched by teachers in march 2006, yet opened both 
>> to school works and anybody : 35,839 articles today : https://wikikids.nl/
>> 
>> Note that German is the main language of about 100 millions people whereas 
>> Dutch is the one of about 24 millions peoples.
>> 
>> That mean that only content produced by schools don't make enought content 
>> to be a fair resource to readers. You have to work in the Wikipedia way to 
>> thrive.
>> 
>> 2d note : The number of articles on Grundschulwiki is quite similar to the 
>> number of the articles that were tagged as written by school project in 
>> Vikidia in French : 
>> https://fr.vikidia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Article_fruit_d%27un_travail_scolaire
>>  1,255 articles today (out of  35,840).
>> 
>> 
>> Envoyé: vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 10:37
>> De: "Adam Sobieski" 
>> 
>> As for the earlier discussion in this thread about wiki-based encyclopedias 
>> for younger students, one idea is to let school districts host their own 
>> encyclopedias and to research how to federate or combine contents and 
>> content updates from and across software at each school… like a P2P network 
>> of MediaWiki software nodes.
>> 
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/NXVGCT4CHKXDC6F5ZO2D2BT7CGTZPL2V/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/BEYWVE4RB3K4J4IV6QW7MT3FZDOYLT62/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/EBSRY3IYTL3RO64ISL64DMTCQ5XSRBHQ/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> "What about children feeling patronized" compared to "what about pedophiles 
> grooming there or promoting their views"
> "Santa Claus" as a controversial article rather than masturbation and so on...


Truthfully, I’m still concerned about child molesters and other kinds of child 
abusers (cyberbullies, etc.), along with parents becoming offended at topics 
like masturbation, puberty, etc. I just have “softer” objections as well, and 
chose to be euphemistic. We’ve had (rare!) issues in the past with adults 
approaching minor children, and the WMF has had to ban said adults from editing 
all WMF wikis. Since this hasn’t been an issue for you, it’s probably better 
that you don’t fix what’s not broken.

> It seems it doesn't include the (althought allready heard) "it would have to 
> be censorded but we don't want it to be censorded => impossible"

Yeah, I think we all know what’s going to end up being censored. Masturbation 
will be censored much more quickly than Santa Claus.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 2:02 AM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> I'm glad the objections to such a project became somewhat softer with the 
> years !
>  
> "What about children feeling patronized" compared to "what about pedophiles 
> grooming there or promoting their views"
> "Santa Claus" as a controversial article rather than masturbation and so on...
>  
> Yet they are still strong, we could update this page with this discussion :
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Questions_and_answers
> It seems it doesn't include the (althought allready heard) "it would have to 
> be censorded but we don't want it to be censorded => impossible"
>  
> "Also children are individuals, just like adults. There's vastly different 
> levels of maturity and interest"
> Sure, that's how we get young editors on Vikidia !
>  
> "12 year old me would've felt very patronized"
> That's right that some of the young editors on Vikidia told that at first 
> they wanted to edit the "real" Wikipedia, they had some kind of disdain for 
> Vikidia. Then they felt more as ease in the Vikidia community, and they feel 
> quite the opposite than being patronized when they can have their word in the 
> founctionning, tutoring some newer editors, get some patrol or admin rights, 
> and so on. They are typically Wikipedia readers in the same time.
> About readers, that's not such a big issue as well. Do children feel 
> humiliated that there is books and magazine for them ?
>  
>  
> Envoyé: vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 06:12
> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" 
> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> 12 year old me would've felt very patronized by something like this.
>  
> As a twelve year old who read on a college level, I would’ve been patronized 
> as well, but my parents, my dad especially, would’ve tried to pressure me to 
> using “wikikids” instead of Wikipedia, if both existed. It would’ve caused 
> conflict in the house, and I would’ve gotten little outside support even if 
> people knew my reading level. (“Your parents are worried about you! Consider 
> yourself lucky!”) It would’ve turned me off wiki editing entirely.
>  
> I also don't like the potential implications, because this could go the route 
> of removing content that any parent finds objectionable from being 
> accessible. 
>  
> This slippery slope has been proven to exist. American parents are, after 
> all, vocal enough about being Offended™, to the point that they will change 
> policy on a WMF-affiliated Wikikids site. For example, articles on literally 
> anything reproduction/reproductive anatomy related (even articles like 
> “puberty,” which starts between 8-14), even though it’s entirely educational 
> and directed towards children, will spark enough controversy that something 
> would need to be done. There would be no other way to not have Wikikids hit 
> the news in a negative way.
>  
> Another potentially controversial article: Santa Claus. Same issue as above 
> with potential negative reputation.
>  
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
>  
> 
>  
>  
> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Clover Moss  <mailto:clovermosswikipe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> Also children are individuals, just like adults. There's vastly different 
> levels of maturity and interest and that shouldn't be limited based on your 
> age, outside of extreme situations that are actually relevant to age. 12 year 
> old me would've felt very patronized by something like this. I

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> There is no major obstacle other than money and contributors to creating a 
> simple version encyclopaedia in any other language  in a non WMF environment. 

If Vikikids can find a way to find contributors and money to continue, then so 
can other non-WMF wikis. In fact, Miraheze provides an ad-free environment to 
do so; Wikia/Fandom also provides an ad-filled, for-profit platform, but has 
the advantage of being better known. Personally, I’d prefer Miraheze for nearly 
any wiki, including a simple non-English wiki that has a similar spirit to 
Simple English. I find Fandom ads distracting.

We don’t have to depend on the WMF to create a wiki. In fact, some might say we 
shouldn’t, but frankly, that warrants another thread to discuss.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 1:15 AM, Peter Southwood  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I find it more difficult to write for Simple English, because it (Simple 
> English) is not my first language and I do not think in it, and the words I 
> would normally use for the topics I prefer are not invented there and have to 
> be worked around, so it is translation a lot of the time. There is no major 
> obstacle other than money and contributors to creating a simple version 
> encyclopaedia in any other language  in a non WMF environment. 
> Cheers,
> Peter
>   <>
> From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga [mailto:galder...@hotmail.com 
> <mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>] 
> Sent: 24 June 2022 09:59
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>  
> Just a reminder that Simple English Wikipedia exists, but there are no Simple 
> _ Wikipedia versions and there won't be. So that may be a solution 
> for English (it is not, as writing in Simple Wikipedia is way more complex 
> than doing at the regular one, because you must change the language) but not 
> for the other languages. There's where especial places for children may work.
>  
> Have a good day,
> Galder
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen  <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 6:13 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List  <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>  
>> I don't disagree with trying to make language more understandable in 
>> general, though.
>  
> Right, but like I’m saying, we have the Simple Wikipedia already. 
>  
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:57 PM, Clover Moss  <mailto:clovermosswikipe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> I don't disagree with trying to make language more understandable in general, 
> though. If there was a children's version, it might be useful for things like 
> math articles. I remember looking up stuff like the quadratic formula when I 
> was in high school, seeing way more advanced mathematics than I was used to 
> and just giving up that Wikipedia could be a useful resource for that. 
> Obviously Wikipedia isn't the end-all be-all for everything and it shouldn't 
> be (obviously it wasn't meant to help me with homework either), but I do 
> agree with the general principle expressed that WereSpielChequers that 
> Wikipedia should be written for a general audience and that's what considered 
> inappropriate is variable depending on your life circumstances. 
>  
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:57 AM WereSpielChequers 
> mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  
>> I'm curious as to what level of reading skill you are writing this for and 
>> also what level of understanding/adulthood. 
>>  
>> I see these as two different issues and both are likely to vary sharply 
>> especially between different countries with very different education 
>> systems. 
>>  
>> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
>> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
>> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
>> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in 
>> London.
>>  
>> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
>> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
>>  
>> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use 
>> of jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia 
>> should be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have 
>> similar issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> I don't disagree with trying to make language more understandable in general, 
> though.

Right, but like I’m saying, we have the Simple Wikipedia already.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:57 PM, Clover Moss  
> wrote:
> 
> I don't disagree with trying to make language more understandable in general, 
> though. If there was a children's version, it might be useful for things like 
> math articles. I remember looking up stuff like the quadratic formula when I 
> was in high school, seeing way more advanced mathematics than I was used to 
> and just giving up that Wikipedia could be a useful resource for that. 
> Obviously Wikipedia isn't the end-all be-all for everything and it shouldn't 
> be (obviously it wasn't meant to help me with homework either), but I do 
> agree with the general principle expressed that WereSpielChequers that 
> Wikipedia should be written for a general audience and that's what considered 
> inappropriate is variable depending on your life circumstances. 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:57 AM WereSpielChequers 
> mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm curious as to what level of reading skill you are writing this for and 
> also what level of understanding/adulthood.
> 
> I see these as two different issues and both are likely to vary sharply 
> especially between different countries with very different education systems. 
> 
> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in London.
> 
> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
> 
> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
> jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
> be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
> issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for 
> those who wish to create childrens' versions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> WSC
> 
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 13:03,  <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>> wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
> 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ 
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/>
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: Small joyy: Txikipedia  of the da(Neurodivergent Netizen)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:13:33 -0700
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen  <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List  <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Message-ID: <8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389b6bb3e...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389b6bb3e...@gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="Apple-Mail=_9EEB7F4B-E2E5-42FB-AED5-C7C07107CEF2"
> 
> >> That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the 
> >> risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and 
> >> unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very 
> >> few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").
> 
> And of course, any WMF-affiliated wiki would be more at-risk simply because 
> of the association with the more well-known Wikipedia.
> 
> > The document is not really public yet. :-)
> 
> I think I can wait until it’s public and proofread. :-)
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 22, 2022, at 1:45 PM, Ziko van Dijk  > <mailto:zvand...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > At the moment I am working on a document that extensively explains how
> &

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> 12 year old me would've felt very patronized by something like this.

As a twelve year old who read on a college level, I would’ve been patronized as 
well, but my parents, my dad especially, would’ve tried to pressure me to using 
“wikikids” instead of Wikipedia, if both existed. It would’ve caused conflict 
in the house, and I would’ve gotten little outside support even if people knew 
my reading level. (“Your parents are worried about you! Consider yourself 
lucky!”) It would’ve turned me off wiki editing entirely.

> I also don't like the potential implications, because this could go the route 
> of removing content that any parent finds objectionable from being 
> accessible. 

This slippery slope has been proven to exist. American parents are, after all, 
vocal enough about being Offended™, to the point that they will change policy 
on a WMF-affiliated Wikikids site. For example, articles on literally anything 
reproduction/reproductive anatomy related (even articles like “puberty,” which 
starts between 8-14), even though it’s entirely educational and directed 
towards children, will spark enough controversy that something would need to be 
done. There would be no other way to not have Wikikids hit the news in a 
negative way.

Another potentially controversial article: Santa Claus. Same issue as above 
with potential negative reputation.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Clover Moss  
> wrote:
> 
> Also children are individuals, just like adults. There's vastly different 
> levels of maturity and interest and that shouldn't be limited based on your 
> age, outside of extreme situations that are actually relevant to age. 12 year 
> old me would've felt very patronized by something like this. I also don't 
> like the potential implications, because this could go the route of removing 
> content that any parent finds objectionable from being accessible. I was 
> raised as a Jehovah's Witness and part of the reason I lost my faith was 
> being able to find information about other perspectives (e.g. LGBT+ rights, 
> atheism, blood transfusions, etc).
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:57 AM WereSpielChequers 
> mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm curious as to what level of reading skill you are writing this for and 
> also what level of understanding/adulthood.
> 
> I see these as two different issues and both are likely to vary sharply 
> especially between different countries with very different education systems. 
> 
> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in London.
> 
> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
> 
> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
> jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
> be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
> issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for 
> those who wish to create childrens' versions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> WSC
> 
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 13:03,  <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>> wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
> 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ 
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/>
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: Small joyy: Txikipedia  of the da(Neurodivergent Netizen)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:13:33 -0700
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen  <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List  <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Message-ID: <8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389b6bb3e...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> We do, however, love when teachers use the Simple English Wikipedia as an 
> educational tool (aka, supervised editing), though more often in user-space 
> than article-space. For example, see: 
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools 
> <https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools>

As a “regular” English WikiGnome, I also love it. I’ve often envisioned a high 
school after school class, with 14-21* year olds, a mixture of special ed, 
English Language Learners, and regular ed together editing English and Simple 
together.

*It’s not uncommon for developmentally disabled adults to stay in high school 
until 21 in America.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 4:02 PM, Rae Adimer via Wikimedia-l 
>  wrote:
> 
> The Simple English Wikipedia is geared towards writing simple content for 
> kids and others, but not specifically geared towards children as authors. 
> Both because the majority of basic topics that they'd want to write about are 
> already covered, and because only the content is simple, not the site's 
> administration, writing, or policy. Writing on the Simple English Wikipedia 
> involves simplifying complex topics, which can require a native or 
> professional understanding of the language.
> 
> We do, however, love when teachers use the Simple English Wikipedia as an 
> educational tool (aka, supervised editing), though more often in user-space 
> than article-space. For example, see: 
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools 
> <https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schools>
> 
> Best,
> Rae
> 
> 
> 
> User:Vermont <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Vermont> on Wikimedia 
> projects
> they/them/theirs (why pronouns matter 
> <https://www.mypronouns.org/what-and-why>)
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:43 PM Neurodivergent Netizen 
> mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
>> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
>> so compelling for them.
> 
> I think the solution is to make the Simple Wikipedia more appealable to kids, 
> or at least more well-known to them and their parents, and not have a 
> separate Wikipedia. Primarily, we could probably do a better job of promoting 
> Simple internally, and it most likely wouldn’t hurt to double the SEO.
> 
>> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki 
>> encyclopedia for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it 
>> easier to discover"
> 
> You can’t use the momentum of Wikipedia to promote a non-WMF wiki, when we 
> have trouble getting momentum going on the WMF wikis that exist.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Mathias Damour > <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>> 
>> Ok, I did read your message too fast... I nevertheless know Simple English 
>> Wikipedia.
>>  
>> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
>> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
>> so compelling for them.
>>  
>> > The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore 
>> > more complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let 
>> > languish in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole 
>> > cloth.
>>  
>> Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles !
>> https://en.vikidia.org <https://en.vikidia.org/>
>> Unfortunately, the developpment of the wikis for children is very uneven, 
>> and it seems hard to overcome the delay when they were launched later one 
>> than another or missed their launch. For exemple I know about two or three 
>> unlucky attempts in german before Klexikon* (and I beleive German had or has 
>> a very good potential for such a project - demography and cultural ground 
>> favourable to children participation and their freedom of information). Yet 
>> it was in Dutch that Wikikids was launched early and is now quite big and 
>> active.
>>  
>> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki 
>> encyclopedia for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it 
>> easier to discover" as just said Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga, but somewhat 
>> different from the way they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be 
>> to let appear the kid equivalent article in the "In other projects" section.
>>  
>> Or m

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
> so compelling for them.

I think the solution is to make the Simple Wikipedia more appealable to kids, 
or at least more well-known to them and their parents, and not have a separate 
Wikipedia. Primarily, we could probably do a better job of promoting Simple 
internally, and it most likely wouldn’t hurt to double the SEO.

> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki encyclopedia 
> for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to discover"

You can’t use the momentum of Wikipedia to promote a non-WMF wiki, when we have 
trouble getting momentum going on the WMF wikis that exist.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Ok, I did read your message too fast... I nevertheless know Simple English 
> Wikipedia.
>  
> I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a 
> project openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not 
> so compelling for them.
>  
> > The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore 
> > more complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let 
> > languish in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole 
> > cloth.
>  
> Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles !
> https://en.vikidia.org
> Unfortunately, the developpment of the wikis for children is very uneven, and 
> it seems hard to overcome the delay when they were launched later one than 
> another or missed their launch. For exemple I know about two or three unlucky 
> attempts in german before Klexikon* (and I beleive German had or has a very 
> good potential for such a project - demography and cultural ground favourable 
> to children participation and their freedom of information). Yet it was in 
> Dutch that Wikikids was launched early and is now quite big and active.
>  
> They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki encyclopedia 
> for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to 
> discover" as just said Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga, but somewhat different from 
> the way they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be to let appear 
> the kid equivalent article in the "In other projects" section.
>  
> Or maybe a very active work both in promotion and gathering a substantial set 
> of core articles (picking the best/most usefull, most viewed articles from 
> several kids wikis and Simple English Wikipedia, translating...)
>  
> **
> *- the original "Wikikids" proposal as a Wikimedia project was made by german 
> speaking wikipedians in early 2005 : 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757 but was 
> chilled down by the reactions on this list...
> - Grundschulwiki was launched in december 2005, it still exists but is 
> restricted to works done in primary classroom and therefore is not much 
> developped : 
> https://grundschulwiki.zum.de/index.php?title=Hauptseite&dir=prev&action=history
> - a 2010 project ended as they were told to request a Simple German Wikipedia 
> and then denied to open it: 
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redaktion_Medizin/Projekt_Kinderleicht
>  
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3
> Meanwhile Wikikids.nl was launched in March 2006 and Vikidia in French in 
> November 2006.
>  
>  
> Envoyé: jeudi 23 juin 2022 à 21:15
> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" 
> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
> Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people 
> who aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few 
> “internet hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, 
> change en to simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very 
> general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.
>  
> Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English 
> Wikipedias’ activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; 
> I suspect kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on 
> Simple before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that 
> might require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think 
> Simple would certainly be a goo

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore more 
complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let languish 
in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole cloth.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm reading your points with great interest, and I don't want to become this 
> a (literal) Encyclopedia selling. All the solutions (Klexikon, Vikidia, 
> Wikimini, Wikijunior, Txikipedia) are part of the same reasoning: we can't 
> write an Encyclopedia fitting all the readers at the same time. It's plainly 
> impossible. And the trend for Wikipedia is to be more and more thick, 
> specialized and complex, not the opposite. That's why children Encyclopedias 
> are needed. Is not only about children writing, is considering them readers 
> who can't understand some articles not because of the language used, but 
> because the topic is explained for University level students and adult public 
> with some previous knowledge on the topic. 
> 
> Our point for Txikipedia is only that children are using Wikipedia, teachers 
> are using it and their parents are using it. So making the effort in Vikidia 
> or something like Klexikon would be fine, but it is more difficult for them 
> to discover, because they need an adul that would tell them that it exists. 
> And this is not so easy. When we launched Txikipedia we wanted to use the 
> momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to discover. This may be easier in an 
> external website for large languages (where Google makes great), but for 
> small languages is more difficult, especially when most of the computers in 
> the schools are not configured in Basque (because Chromebooks aren't 
> available in the language students are using in their classroom). So having 
> both entry points (Txikipedia directly or Wikipedia in Basque and then 
> Txikipedia) makes it easier. I don't know how much visits Vikidia has, I hope 
> they are millions, but we are quite happy with nearly half a million visits 
> year-to-date: 
> https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=category&start=2022-01-01&end=2022-06-22&subjectpage=0&subcategories=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Feu.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKategoria%3ATxikipedia&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Txikipedia
>  
> <https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=category&start=2022-01-01&end=2022-06-22&subjectpage=0&subcategories=0&target=https%3A%2F%2Feu.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKategoria%3ATxikipedia&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Txikipedia>.
>  
> 
> At the end of the day, we need to talk about the big picture: how are we, as 
> wikimedians, providing content for those who need it more and can't 
> understand our great work.
> 
> Have a good solstice,
> 
> Galder
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen  <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2022 9:15 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List  <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>  
> The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
> Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people 
> who aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few 
> “internet hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, 
> change en to simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very 
> general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.
> 
> Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English 
> Wikipedias’ activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; 
> I suspect kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on 
> Simple before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that 
> might require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think 
> Simple would certainly be a good place to start making Wikipedia more 
> accessible to 8-10 year olds.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour > <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>>  
>>  De: "WereSpielChequers" > <mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>>
>> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
>> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people who 
aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few “internet 
hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, change en to 
simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very 
general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.

Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English Wikipedias’ 
activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; I suspect 
kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on Simple 
before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that might 
require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think Simple 
would certainly be a good place to start making Wikipedia more accessible to 
8-10 year olds.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
>  De: "WereSpielChequers" 
> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in London.
> 
> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
> 
> There is one thing that is sure, that "one single childrens' encyclopaedia" 
> is a great step for children (and often teenagers and older people) than 
> having just Wikipedia available, and they love it.
>  
> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
> jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
> be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
> issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for 
> those who wish to create childrens' versions.
> 
> Yet there is not realistic hopes that the language of Wikipedia will change 
> to be easier. That wouldn't address the fact the articles on general subjects 
> are among the longest ones.
> It sounds a bit weird that a content for 12 yo would not fit well for a 8 yo, 
> and then that Wikipedia could fit to children. The "reading level" of 
> articles on Vikidia is not perfectly homogenous, nor their developpment is. 
> They can be usefull for adult beginners on a subject just as a child can 
> prefer Wikipedia on a subject he's fond of and allready informed.
> That was developped in this post (in english):
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Documentation_and_Vikidia 
> 
> 
>  
> De: "Ziko van Dijk"  
> Ideally, one would have
> * an encyclopedia for the very young, that parents read to them,
> * an encyclopedia for the 8 to 13 year olds, the target group for many
> of the existing kids' wikis,
> * an encyclopedia for juvelines, 14 to 18 years
> * an encyclopedia for everyone; this is what "regular Wikipedia" should be,
> * an encyclopedia for specialists; this is what "regular Wikipedia"
> actually develops into.
> And maybe encylopedias for people with specific challenges such as
> dyslexia.
> 
> Most language don't have a single wiki encyclopedia for children or an 
> under-developped one. So I guess that's not realistic nor wise to wish such a 
> division in this work. So let's work on the allready allready launched ones ! 
> (Especially the one of the Vikidia family of course ;) see 
> https://www.vikidia.org/ )
>  
> You actually do not need millions of articles for a good encyclopedia, some 
> thousand well written articles are enough.
> 
> Vikidia in French and Wikikids in Dutch are by far the biggest wiki 
> encyclopedias for children, with about 35000 articles each. Yet young reader 
> on the Vikidia's guestbook still ask for "more content", which certainly mean 
> both enought developped articles (not just a few lines) and more subjects. So 
> yes, we need, if not millions of articles, at least several dozens of 
> thousands articles.
> Of course, we see that (as everywhere) 20 % of the articles make more than 80 
> % of the pageviews. But you can't really guess in advance which subject will 
> be in the top 20 %.
>  
>  De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" 
> About Txikipedia: the age range is 8-12, but is more 10-12 than 8-9. The 
> problem is that some of the writers are 8-9 years old, so their content is 
> quite simple.
> 
> (...)
> 
> When I read French Vikidia I think that most of the contents are still too 
> difficult for 8-9 years old students, but French education system maybe more 
> advanced in some issues. Or it might be that Vikidia is centered in 8-13 
> years old, and 13 years old readers are way better reading and understanding 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

>> That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the 
>> risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and 
>> unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very 
>> few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").

And of course, any WMF-affiliated wiki would be more at-risk simply because of 
the association with the more well-known Wikipedia.

> The document is not really public yet. :-)

I think I can wait until it’s public and proofread. :-)

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 22, 2022, at 1:45 PM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> At the moment I am working on a document that extensively explains how
> we work on the Klexikon. If someone is interested, please send me a
> private message. The document is not really public yet. :-)
> Kind regards
> Ziko
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Klexikon
> 
> Am Mi., 22. Juni 2022 um 19:27 Uhr schrieb Mathias Damour
> :
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" 
>> I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia 
>> project is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere 
>> that could potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that 
>> America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks 
>> when children are involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids 
>> are likely to continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not 
>> worth the extra effort.  This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff 
>> so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the 
>> background checks and identity verification needed. None of that are 
>> obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids editing the existing projects.
>> 
>> I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite 
>> quickly.
>> 
>> You are probably right. I would say COPPA may not be the biggest hurdle, yet 
>> the british "UK Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006" is another one, and 
>> moreover the fact that "America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the 
>> potential safety risks when children are involved in websites" (and I would 
>> also say that "America" weight more the right of parents to control what is 
>> taught to their children and less the right of the children to inform 
>> themselves - the latter being upheld by the Convention on the Rights of the 
>> Child, which the US didn't ratificate - compared to other countries).
>> We reviewed it on https://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Legal_matters
>> 
>> That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the 
>> risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and 
>> unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very 
>> few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").
>> 
>> You tell about "hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people 
>> for just Kidipedia", well, that's quite exactly the point I adressed on this 
>> blog post :
>> Vikidia, l’anti-professionnalisation
>> https://www.wikimedia.fr/vikidia-lanti-professionnalisation/
>> ...to tell that the vision of children needing to be only alongside their 
>> closed family and professionals workers - and that it should be the same if 
>> a wiki for children is set (that we would need professionnal educators 
>> either to write the articles, to design the project or to manage the 
>> community or all that together) - did cause much delay to the wiki 
>> encyclopedias for children, and how we do otherwise on Vikidia.
>> 
>> Reminder, the Wikikids project was developped on this page and subpages :
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids
>> 
>> Envoyé: mercredi 22 juin 2022 à 12:37
>> De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" 
>> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
>> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>> From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any extra 
>> step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you 
>> are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can 
>> find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters 
>> at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended 
>> for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so 
>> providing them a better place, thought for them (as our 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

>
> In fact, we’ve pretty much concluded that disclosing a minor editors age
> publicly, or to more people than necessary, would decrease their safety.
> Requiring age verification may not disclose the childs’ age publicly, but
> it would expose their age to more people. One would hope these people have
> secure accounts, but that’s difficult to impossible to enforce. It would be
> more ideal if no one knew the exact age of minor editors (“minor” being
> defined as 15 and under at the moment), so accidental exposure is
> impossible.


I've realized that I'm having trouble reconciling a minors right to privacy
while proving that they are, in fact, minors.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 5:04 AM Neurodivergent Netizen <
idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally
> you can have an account even if you are underage.
>
>
> In fact, we’ve pretty much concluded that disclosing a minor editors age
> publicly, or to more people than necessary, would decrease their safety.
> Requiring age verification may not disclose the childs’ age publicly, but
> it would expose their age to more people. One would hope these people have
> secure accounts, but that’s difficult to impossible to enforce. It would be
> more ideal if no one knew the exact age of minor editors (“minor” being
> defined as 15 and under at the moment), so accidental exposure is
> impossible.
>
> Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult
> content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at
> Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended
> for that.
>
>
> I’d like to disclaim that I think pornographic pictures on Commons is a
> genuine issue, and we need to take steps to decrease the amount of them.
> However, one controversy we run into is the definition of “adult content,”
> and also “appropriate for teenagers but not for children.” Even with porn,
> you kind of know it when you see it but you can’t *quite* define
> it, particularly when there might be an academic need to visually depict or
> describe sexual acts or human anatomy (like, for example, on Wikipedia).
> This makes filtration, even if installed on a computer instead of a
> website, problematic.
>
> I’ll respond to your “there’s no advice” below.
>
> The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing
> them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is
> better that not providing at all.
>
>
> We’ve actually think of children quite a bit on Wikipedia. Hence, my last
> few paragraphs, which have been partially informed by discussions with
> other Wikimedians. If there’s any doubt, here are multiple links for proof:
>
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children%27s_privacy
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children's_privacy>
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guidance_for_younger_editors
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents>
> *
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children%27s_privacy
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children's_privacy>
>
> And that’s just from one search. I’m sure I can find other essays in more
> obscure parts of Wikipedia, but I think six essays/policy/guideline pages
> is quite enough. :-)
>
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2022, at 3:37 AM, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any
> extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even
> if you are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and
> they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that,
> nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were
> not intended for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from
> children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our
> strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.
>
> If you want to know more about Txikipedia, contact us, please.
>
> Galder
> --
> *From:* Neurodivergent Netizen 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2022 2:59 AM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>
> I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia
> project is th

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

> Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you 
> can have an account even if you are underage.

In fact, we’ve pretty much concluded that disclosing a minor editors age 
publicly, or to more people than necessary, would decrease their safety. 
Requiring age verification may not disclose the childs’ age publicly, but it 
would expose their age to more people. One would hope these people have secure 
accounts, but that’s difficult to impossible to enforce. It would be more ideal 
if no one knew the exact age of minor editors (“minor” being defined as 15 and 
under at the moment), so accidental exposure is impossible.

> Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult 
> content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at Commons, 
> where you can find even porn using words that were not intended for that.

I’d like to disclaim that I think pornographic pictures on Commons is a genuine 
issue, and we need to take steps to decrease the amount of them. However, one 
controversy we run into is the definition of “adult content,” and also 
“appropriate for teenagers but not for children.” Even with porn, you kind of 
know it when you see it but you can’t quite define it, particularly when there 
might be an academic need to visually depict or describe sexual acts or human 
anatomy (like, for example, on Wikipedia).  This makes filtration, even if 
installed on a computer instead of a website, problematic.

I’ll respond to your “there’s no advice” below.

> The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing 
> them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is 
> better that not providing at all.

We’ve actually think of children quite a bit on Wikipedia. Hence, my last few 
paragraphs, which have been partially informed by discussions with other 
Wikimedians. If there’s any doubt, here are multiple links for proof:

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children%27s_privacy 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children's_privacy>
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection>
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guidance_for_younger_editors 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guidance_for_younger_editors>
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents>
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children%27s_privacy
 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children's_privacy>

And that’s just from one search. I’m sure I can find other essays in more 
obscure parts of Wikipedia, but I think six essays/policy/guideline pages is 
quite enough. :-)

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 22, 2022, at 3:37 AM, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga 
>  wrote:
> 
> From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any extra 
> step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you 
> are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can 
> find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters 
> at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended 
> for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so 
> providing them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction 
> says) is better that not providing at all.
> 
> If you want to know more about Txikipedia, contact us, please.
> 
> Galder
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 2:59 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
>  
> I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia project 
> is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere that could 
> potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that America is very 
> aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are 
> involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids are likely to 
> continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not worth the extra 
> effort.  This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a 
> team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the background checks and 
> identity verification needed. None of that are obstacles that aren’t in the 
> way of kids editing the existing projects.
> 
> I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite quickly.
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
>> On Jun 21, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Mathias Damour > <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>> wrote:
>>

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

[Neurodivergent Netizen]

I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia project 
is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere that could 
potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that America is very 
aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are 
involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids are likely to continue 
editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not worth the extra effort.  
This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of 
people for just Kidipedia, along with the background checks and identity 
verification needed. None of that are obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids 
editing the existing projects.

I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite quickly.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her

> On Jun 21, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Mathias Damour  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ziko, Samuel and everybody,
>  
> De: "Ziko van Dijk" 
> Hello Samuel,
>  
> Thank you for your mail. I would like to see more attention from the 
> Wikimedia movement for the target group children age ca. 8-14.
>  
> I am afraid there is no real comprehensive study about the best way to 
> provide encyclopedic wiki content to children, or even to involve them in the 
> content creation.
>  
> In general, children are a very special and vulnerable group. This can become 
> problematic when they are directly involved on a platform, and when it comes 
> to the content itself.
>  
> And yet it works well with Vikidia, which has been active for more than 15 
> years, writing an average of 6 articles par day since the beginning !
> There is some blog posts that elaborate how it works, what it implies and 
> what it means to let a multi-age community work together, unfortunatly only 
> in french (except one in english):
> https://www.wikimedia.fr/author/astirmays/
> My english is certainly not good enought to translate them properly, yet I 
> would be glad to get some help to do so or to find a way to get them 
> translated (anybody tell me if you wish to help translating 2 or 3 of theses 
> posts !)
> One also reviews some of the commons objections to such a project and how we 
> adress them.
>  
> Samuel Klein  schrieb am Mo. 20. Juni 2022 um 02:25:
>  
> More languages should try that.   a) simple skin hack, b) loving and lovely 
> idea, c) more compelling to me than the standalone kidipedia projects :)   
> Anyway, thanks for improving my weekend, Txikipedians.   SJ
>  
> Actually when you have a "standalone kidipedia project", it has the great 
> benefit to allow to have its own community, and not to be marginalized inside 
> a much bigger project. Both young readers and young editors love it. I guess 
> that the choice may depend on the size of the "mother" Wikipedia and the 
> potential community to gather on this project.
>  
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/44SJI3LVF2SIZUMTQS43F5MRBENZYEQT/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/EY63OHXCCB5IUOSEOV32U3U5J577CGVX/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org