Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Jane Darnell]

What you may find interesting about her story is that she has never
actually "seen" a Wikipedia article (though we used to have a Funk &
Wagnalls new world encyclopedia that was read religiously too). Whenever I
get to see her in real life (only about 1x or 2x per year) she has
remembered all of the Wikipedia inconsistencies throughout the year and
asks me to go in there and "fix" them. Oddly, she never asks my brothers to
do this, so to her, writing Wikipedia is a woman's work.

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Isarra Yos  wrote:

> This is actually a good point in general. There are the average users, who
> are important and then some, but there are always other use cases too. Even
> if we can't reasonably support them, they're still there and still merit
> considering, if nothing else, and without stories like these we'd probably
> never even know.
>
> So thank you.
>
> On 29/05/15 14:49, Jane Darnell wrote:
>
>> My blind mom drives me and my brothers crazy by asking us to read her
>> Wikipedia articles after she has listened to some book-on-tape or radio
>> show. It would be great if she could speak the title of the article and
>> have the article read back to her. If we ignore her, she takes revenge by
>> turning on the TV full blast and flipping channels until she hears
>> something that she can follow (very often it's Fox news). She has been
>> legally blind for about 10 years now and what I have noticed is that she
>> is
>> very unwilling to listen to machine-read text (though it is better than
>> nothing). I have often thought it would be good to have a radio channel
>> that just hooked people like her up with people who are willing to read
>> articles available online. Probably not something for a Wiki project
>> though
>> it could be if you used each reading as an opportunity to create or update
>> an audio recording of the article.
>>
>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, James Heilman  wrote:
>>
>>  Yes I agree that well educated, young and technical blind people from
>>> the developed world have found better solutions for using the internet
>>> that we could produce with a listen button.
>>>
>>> I see this more for 1) people who do not read because they do not know
>>> how 2) people who are blind but not technical (maybe they are elderly)
>>>
>>> Patient.co.uk say that their listen button is used about 1% of the
>>> time. You can see it here http://www.patient.co.uk/health/gout-leaflet
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Heilman
>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>>> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> 
>>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Isarra Yos]

This is actually a good point in general. There are the average users, 
who are important and then some, but there are always other use cases 
too. Even if we can't reasonably support them, they're still there and 
still merit considering, if nothing else, and without stories like these 
we'd probably never even know.


So thank you.

On 29/05/15 14:49, Jane Darnell wrote:

My blind mom drives me and my brothers crazy by asking us to read her
Wikipedia articles after she has listened to some book-on-tape or radio
show. It would be great if she could speak the title of the article and
have the article read back to her. If we ignore her, she takes revenge by
turning on the TV full blast and flipping channels until she hears
something that she can follow (very often it's Fox news). She has been
legally blind for about 10 years now and what I have noticed is that she is
very unwilling to listen to machine-read text (though it is better than
nothing). I have often thought it would be good to have a radio channel
that just hooked people like her up with people who are willing to read
articles available online. Probably not something for a Wiki project though
it could be if you used each reading as an opportunity to create or update
an audio recording of the article.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, James Heilman  wrote:


Yes I agree that well educated, young and technical blind people from
the developed world have found better solutions for using the internet
that we could produce with a listen button.

I see this more for 1) people who do not read because they do not know
how 2) people who are blind but not technical (maybe they are elderly)

Patient.co.uk say that their listen button is used about 1% of the
time. You can see it here http://www.patient.co.uk/health/gout-leaflet

--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,


___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 




___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Nick Wilson (Quiddity)]

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> [...]
> The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always
> a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio
> almost unintelligible
> for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for
> that including mobile OS.
>
> The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for
> them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio
> that everyone of us is experienced to use.



I asked if anyone could point me to examples of "how fast do screenreaders
actually read", a few months ago.[1] The best examples I could find at the
time, are here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izrC4R7SsH4#t=1561s
and here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92pM6hJG6Wo

Searching a few days ago, I learned that the average speed that experienced
users generally use is 250-400 wpm, and that the default settings are
around 180wpm.
(Note: Users seem to typically talk about the speed they use in terms of x%
of maximum, rather than wpm, e.g. "I've got 63% with rate boost, and
rising.  I used to think 75% with JAWS was fast, but not anymore.  I'm just
turning it 1% faster every couple days, and I'm doing it because I can."
[2])

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute#Speech_and_listening says
English language audio books are generally at 140-160 wpm.

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Archive_13#Good_videos_demonstrating_screenreaders_in_use
[2] http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=10649


No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I
> did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was
> presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
>

I believe this is partially through the long-term efforts of: our
developers who have an understanding of accessibility issues, and our few
blind editors and many sight-impaired editors who give regular feedback and
bugreports.[3] Immense kudos to all of them.

[3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/accessibility/


(Sidenote:  I compiled a list of all the related pages I could find, at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Accessibility_and_usability_cleanup
Anyone's additions to that listing, or notes/improvements/merge-efforts at
the linked pages over the longterm, would be greatly appreciated. :)

Quiddity
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Pharos]

For those who are interested, this is the American Sign Language Wikipedia
on Incubator:

https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ase

Sign languages are indeed real languages, and for example American Sign
Language is unrelated to English or even British Sign Language (in fact,
it's closest to French Sign Language).

It is certainly true that sign languages have not historically been written
in any form by most of their users, and so video should be an important
part of any such project, although video is of course not really as
wiki-amenable as text is.

The most complete writing system for sign languages, however, a sort of
International Phonetic Alphabet, is SignWriting, and its community has been
active of Wikimedia projects.  There are some technical difficulties with
implementing SignWriting on-wiki, including the vast number of potential
gestures to be represented, that it is not yet in Unicode, and also that it
is written vertically rather than horizontally, but progress has been made
on this with a MediaWiki software extension by the SignWriting community.

Thanks,
Pharos

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Cristian Consonni <
> kikkocrist...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 "Martin Kraft"  ha scritto:
> > > Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual
> > into something visual?
> >
> > I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
> > sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
> > written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language
> you
> > know.
> >
>
> Yes, I had a deaf student who opened my eyes to this -- he wanted to create
> a video site for the deaf that would have signed videos and movies. He had
> staffers and volunteers take viral YouTube videos and "sign" them for the
> deaf.
>
> My first question was, wouldn't reading subtitles simply solve the problem?
> Why do you need to do ASL versions?
>
> He gave me an annoyed look. It's something the deaf community finds
> frustrating to explain to outsiders.
>
> There's a reason its called American SIGN LANGUAGE and not "signed English
> language." It's a primary language in itself, and reading off the screen is
> as inferior an experience as if we read the subtitles with the sound off.
>
> -Andrew
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[rupert THURNER]

You mean these persons suggested to remove the catches?

Rupert
On May 28, 2015 11:58 AM, "Ilario Valdelli"  wrote:

> Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to
> share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a
> young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual
> participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
>
> It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person
> studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the
> opportunity to be in his shoes.
>
> The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always
> a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio
> almost unintelligible
> for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for
> that including mobile OS.
>
> The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for
> them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio
> that everyone of us is experienced to use.
>
> The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset
> and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal
> synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
>
> The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web
> site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content
> at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for
> them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
>
> No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I
> did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was
> presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
>
> What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the
> Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and
> the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that
> some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind
> people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
> put
> > on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
> > have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
> > likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
> > sighted that need the help.
> >
> > I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
> > great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
> > stuff that is simple.
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario 
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli  >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Jane Darnell]

My blind mom drives me and my brothers crazy by asking us to read her
Wikipedia articles after she has listened to some book-on-tape or radio
show. It would be great if she could speak the title of the article and
have the article read back to her. If we ignore her, she takes revenge by
turning on the TV full blast and flipping channels until she hears
something that she can follow (very often it's Fox news). She has been
legally blind for about 10 years now and what I have noticed is that she is
very unwilling to listen to machine-read text (though it is better than
nothing). I have often thought it would be good to have a radio channel
that just hooked people like her up with people who are willing to read
articles available online. Probably not something for a Wiki project though
it could be if you used each reading as an opportunity to create or update
an audio recording of the article.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, James Heilman  wrote:

> Yes I agree that well educated, young and technical blind people from
> the developed world have found better solutions for using the internet
> that we could produce with a listen button.
>
> I see this more for 1) people who do not read because they do not know
> how 2) people who are blind but not technical (maybe they are elderly)
>
> Patient.co.uk say that their listen button is used about 1% of the
> time. You can see it here http://www.patient.co.uk/health/gout-leaflet
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Andy Mabbett]

On 24 January 2015 at 22:21, James Heilman  wrote:

> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
> clicked will read the article for the person in question?

Such functionality belongs in the browser, not the web page. So long
as we use valid and accessible markup, the user can use a tool of
their preference to have the page read to them, in a voice that suits
them.

> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech

Having in the past examined several such tools in my capacity as a
professional web manager, I found none which was more suited to the
purpose then the scenario I describe above. Indeed, several seems to
be money-making scams.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[James Heilman]

Yes I agree that well educated, young and technical blind people from
the developed world have found better solutions for using the internet
that we could produce with a listen button.

I see this more for 1) people who do not read because they do not know
how 2) people who are blind but not technical (maybe they are elderly)

Patient.co.uk say that their listen button is used about 1% of the
time. You can see it here http://www.patient.co.uk/health/gout-leaflet

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Ilario Valdelli]

Yes this remark is only focused to give the feedback that our user
experience is really different from that of the real users.

A question was done about the testing and in any country there are local
associations that can give tests (in Italian language there is unitalsi).

An additional remark is that there is an additional reason to improve pages
for blind persons and the reason is that the bots for SEO are "blind". They
read the pages, don't see them.

Regards
Il 28/Mag/2015 12:33, "Richard Symonds" 
ha scritto:

> This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that
> there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or
> input from an organisation like RNIB
> .
>
> Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much
> further.
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>
> *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
> over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
>
> On 28 May 2015 at 10:58, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:
>
> > Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting
> to
> > share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation
> of a
> > young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual
> > participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
> >
> > It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a
> person
> > studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the
> > opportunity to be in his shoes.
> >
> > The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use
> always
> > a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio
> > almost unintelligible
> > for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools
> for
> > that including mobile OS.
> >
> > The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial
> for
> > them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of
> audio
> > that everyone of us is experienced to use.
> >
> > The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with
> headset
> > and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal
> > synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
> >
> > The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web
> > site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of
> Content
> > at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for
> > them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
> >
> > No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and
> I
> > did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was
> > presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
> >
> > What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of
> the
> > Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page,
> and
> > the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that
> > some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind
> > people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
> >
> > > I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
> > put
> > > on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
> > > have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
> > > likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
> > > sighted that need the help.
> > >
> > > I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through
> a
> > > great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
> > > stuff that is simple.
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno al

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Cristian Consonni]

2015-05-28 12:32 GMT+02:00 Richard Symonds :
> This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that
> there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or
> input from an organisation like RNIB
> .
>
> Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much
> further.

This is for sure a field were chapters and other local affiliates can
make good use of partnerships with local associations of blind or
sight-impaired people.

For exampla, In the Archeowiki project by Wikimedia Italia (developed
in the years 2012 - 2014) we did some outreach work with the Insituto
dei ciechi di Milano (Institute of Blind People of Milan, one of the
oldest charities/foundations in Italy, being founded in 1840). This
comprised some lessons about prehistoric, extra-European archaeology
done by groups of archaeologists and Wikipedia that were specifically
trained. In these lessons there were a set of artefacts that could be
touched and also some 3D printed reproduction.

Cristian

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Richard Symonds]

This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that
there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or
input from an organisation like RNIB
.

Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much
further.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 28 May 2015 at 10:58, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to
> share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a
> young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual
> participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
>
> It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person
> studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the
> opportunity to be in his shoes.
>
> The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always
> a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio
> almost unintelligible
> for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for
> that including mobile OS.
>
> The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for
> them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio
> that everyone of us is experienced to use.
>
> The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset
> and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal
> synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
>
> The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web
> site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content
> at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for
> them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
>
> No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I
> did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was
> presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
>
> What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the
> Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and
> the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that
> some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind
> people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
> put
> > on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
> > have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
> > likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
> > sighted that need the help.
> >
> > I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
> > great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
> > stuff that is simple.
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario 
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli  >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Ilario Valdelli]

Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to
share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a
young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual
participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.

It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person
studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the
opportunity to be in his shoes.

The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always
a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio
almost unintelligible
for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for
that including mobile OS.

The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for
them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio
that everyone of us is experienced to use.

The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset
and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal
synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.

The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web
site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content
at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for
them because they can easily jump in the section they need.

No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I
did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was
presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.

What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the
Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and
the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that
some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind
people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.

Regards



On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman  wrote:

> I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put
> on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
> have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
> likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
> sighted that need the help.
>
> I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
> great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
> stuff that is simple.
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario 
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli 
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

On 24.01.2015 23:21, James Heilman wrote:

While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
available for only a fraction of our articles.

Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
clicked will read the article for the person in question?

There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
Wikimedia Foundation.


FYI, we have published yesterday Kiwix for Android 1.92 which proposes 
for the first time TTS. Here is the release note:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/offline-l/2015-January/001296.html

We would be happy to propose this feature to the desktop version too, 
but AFAIK none of the open source text-to-speech solution is good enough 
for that. This might be a reason to not have one on the online web site too.


Emmanuel

--
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Martin Kraft]

Am 25.01.2015 um 23:22 schrieb Andrew Lih:

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:


Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 "Martin Kraft"  ha scritto:

Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual

into something visual?

I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language you
know.


Yes, I had a deaf student who opened my eyes to this -- he wanted to create
a video site for the deaf that would have signed videos and movies. He had
staffers and volunteers take viral YouTube videos and "sign" them for the
deaf.

My first question was, wouldn't reading subtitles simply solve the problem?
Why do you need to do ASL versions?

He gave me an annoyed look. It's something the deaf community finds
frustrating to explain to outsiders.

There's a reason its called American SIGN LANGUAGE and not "signed English
language." It's a primary language in itself, and reading off the screen is
as inferior an experience as if we read the subtitles with the sound off.


Yes of course: sign language is a far better substitute to spoken 
language than subtitles – not at last due to the point, that it comes to 
gether with the mimic an gesture of a real person "signing" and 
therefore has a kind of accentuation, written text can not provide.


But in the case of Wikipedia articles the thing to be translated is not 
spoken language but well phrased text – furthermore a text with a lot of 
technical terms. And afaik these terms are hard to encode and decode in 
sign language. And while a hearing person can benefit from watching the 
pictures, maps, e.g. while listening to somebody reading this article, 
deaf people need there eyes to "listen".


Would be interesting, to read what somebody, how realy is deaf, thinks 
about this topic?!


// Martin

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Ilario Valdelli]

I agree with this point and I think that this problem is central.

People with defective vision already uses text-to-speech solutions as
client application.

So the problem is another: are the pages of Wikimedia projects adapted to
be read by TTL client program?

I think that the exaggerated use of templates is the main obstacle to have
wikimedia projects compatible with WAI standard (http://www.w3.org/WAI/).

So the question is different: before adapt the pages to WAI, after check
them with a TTL client program, and after define if it makes sense to
introduce a TTL integrated to the web interface.

Someone with low vision or blind probably cannot find or read the
instructions to use the TTL with Wikipedia, he has his own program and is
able to use it.

regards

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:

> We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
> they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
> structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
> and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
> text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
> reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
> any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
> usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
> different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
> before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
> actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario 
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli 
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli 
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli 
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Michał Buczyński]

As Tomasz and Dariusz wrote, while visually impaired people have their
solutions, other users might want to use Wikipedia etc. as an audible
source, even as podcasts (because they prefer learning while listening,
they are on the go etc.). I guess as well that mobile platforms bring some
use cases here (and I don't know if the solutions used by impaired people
are so useful on, say, iPad or Android phone, especially in less popular
languages).

Some completely other yet connected thing is assistance for impaired to
actually edit. Recently I have been approached by a person born blind who
reads content from MediaWiki but had it difficult to actually contribute
(while they wished to).

Kind Regards,
michał "aegis maelstrom" buczyński

Dnia 26 stycznia 2015 8:45 Dariusz Jemielniak 
napisał(a):

> hi,
> 
> while this proposal will not add value for the blind, most likely (they
> surely have their preferred solutions 
> 
> already), it may be useful for those who do not have time to look for
> audio output, but would appreciate it if
> 
>  it was available straightaway. I think there is some benefit in that,
>  clearly.
> 
> best,
> 
> dj "pundit"

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

hi,

while this proposal will not add value for the blind, most likely (they
surely have their preferred solutions already), it may be useful for those
who do not have time to look for audio output, but would appreciate it if
it was available straightaway. I think there is some benefit in that,
clearly.

best,

dj "pundit"

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman  wrote:

> I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put
> on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
> have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
> likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
> sighted that need the help.
>
> I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
> great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
> stuff that is simple.
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 

__
prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego
i centrum badawczego CROW
Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl

członek Akademii Młodych Uczonych Polskiej Akademii Nauk
członek Komitetu Polityki Naukowej MNiSW

Wyszła pierwsza na świecie etnografia Wikipedii "Common Knowledge? An
Ethnography of Wikipedia" (2014, Stanford University Press) mojego
autorstwa http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=24010

Recenzje
Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml
Pacific Standard:
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-and-culture/killed-wikipedia-93777/
Motherboard: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/an-ethnography-of-wikipedia
The Wikipedian:
http://thewikipedian.net/2014/10/10/dariusz-jemielniak-common-knowledge
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[James Heilman]

I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put
on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
sighted that need the help.

I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
stuff that is simple.

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Andrew Lih]

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 "Martin Kraft"  ha scritto:
> > Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual
> into something visual?
>
> I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
> sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
> written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language you
> know.
>

Yes, I had a deaf student who opened my eyes to this -- he wanted to create
a video site for the deaf that would have signed videos and movies. He had
staffers and volunteers take viral YouTube videos and "sign" them for the
deaf.

My first question was, wouldn't reading subtitles simply solve the problem?
Why do you need to do ASL versions?

He gave me an annoyed look. It's something the deaf community finds
frustrating to explain to outsiders.

There's a reason its called American SIGN LANGUAGE and not "signed English
language." It's a primary language in itself, and reading off the screen is
as inferior an experience as if we read the subtitles with the sound off.

-Andrew
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Fæ]

I have used screen readers myself, and often sit on public transport
listening to reports and articles I never otherwise find the time to
read through. Audio screen reader apps are increasingly useful for
mobile and tablet access, it being hard work for someone who has
difficulty reading the equivalent of 'license plates for bumble bees'
that the small screen offers, especially to someone who is too vain to
use their reading glasses on the bus.

Properly up to date "how to" guides for the better screen readers
currently available, along with projects to improve how our articles
and image pages should be tagged in ways that improve screen reader
navigation, would probably be more practical to benefit a wide
community of readers rather than having a standard button.

Fae

On 25 January 2015 at 12:35, Andrew Gray  wrote:
> Max Klein and I had a chat with someone from a similar group a couple
> of years ago, and he reported much the same thing - the actual site
> structure is pretty good for screenreaders and similar software, or
> was in early 2013.
>
> (His main suggestion was to look into improved audio "materials" -
> recordings of what things sounds like, soundscapes, etc. - which we
> don't really do much with. Andy Mabbett picked up part of this with
> the Voice Intro Project, which is great, but the rest is still fertile
> ground...)
>
> Anecdotally, I believe the "spoken Wikipedia" article recordings are
> mainly used as surrogates for podcast-type use, rather than
> accessibility purposes. However, if anyone has some firm numbers on
> this (or even an indication of how much they're used at all...) I'd
> love to know about it!
>
> Andrew.
>
>
> On 25 January 2015 at 12:00, Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:
>> We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
>> they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
>> structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
>> and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
>> text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
>> reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
>> any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
>> usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
>> different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
>> before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
>> actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman :
>>
>>> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
>>> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>>>
>>> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
>>> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>>>
>>> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
>>> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
>>> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
>>> Wikimedia Foundation.
>>>
>>> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Heilman
>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>>> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
>> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
>> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 



-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Andrew Gray]

Max Klein and I had a chat with someone from a similar group a couple
of years ago, and he reported much the same thing - the actual site
structure is pretty good for screenreaders and similar software, or
was in early 2013.

(His main suggestion was to look into improved audio "materials" -
recordings of what things sounds like, soundscapes, etc. - which we
don't really do much with. Andy Mabbett picked up part of this with
the Voice Intro Project, which is great, but the rest is still fertile
ground...)

Anecdotally, I believe the "spoken Wikipedia" article recordings are
mainly used as surrogates for podcast-type use, rather than
accessibility purposes. However, if anyone has some firm numbers on
this (or even an indication of how much they're used at all...) I'd
love to know about it!

Andrew.


On 25 January 2015 at 12:00, Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:
> We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
> they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
> structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
> and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
> text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
> reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
> any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
> usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
> different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
> before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
> actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.
>
>
>
> 2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman :
>
>> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
>> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>>
>> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
>> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>>
>> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
>> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
>> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
>> Wikimedia Foundation.
>>
>> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> James Heilman
>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>
>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 



-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Cristian Consonni]

Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 "Martin Kraft"  ha scritto:
> Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual
into something visual?

I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language you
know.
Of course the one above was an experiment (and at least a try at getting a
University to release their software with a FLOSS license, let's not
forget), since I expect some differences from a text converted and one
natively written in sign language.

If you look in the Wikimedia Incubator and Meta there are discusions about
a Wikipedia in ASL, that is American Sign Language.

http://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_American_Sign_Language_2

C
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 4:00 AM, Tomasz Ganicz  wrote:

> We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
> they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
> structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
> and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
> text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
> reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
> any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
> usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
> different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
> before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
> actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.


Anecdotal to Tomasz's point, there was an editor on IRC the other day in
-commons that is Deaf/Blind and considers Wikimedia sites to be, in its
current state, one of the friendly- to disability-adaptive software of any
website. Mucking that up would be...bad.

What I suppose I'm challenging, James, is this: are our websites playing
well with accessibility? What are the specific points of failing? It is
subject to the disability, there's no patch to make it all right. What is
the path to make it right? How can I help? Where can we document this?

-- 
Keegan Peterzell
Community Liaison, Product
Wikimedia Foundation
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Tomasz Ganicz]

We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.



2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman :

> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>
> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>
> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
> Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




-- 
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Martin Kraft]

(only marginally related, but this is to say that I like this idea)

A couple of years ago I contacted  a professor at the University of Siena
(Tuscany, Italy) which was the head of a project that built a 
text-to-sign-language converter. The software was converting text in Italian to 
LIS (Lingua Italiana dei Segni, Italian Sign Language) and was
tested also on the public television (see the website below).

The software is called Blue Sign:
http://www.bluesign.it/

Basically, since  the website said that the project was over, I asked them to 
re-release the code with a free/libre open license which is a
precondition to use it on Wikipedia.


While the idea of a text-to-speech-module for MediaWiki is obvious and 
plausible, I honestly don't see a benefit in an text to 
sign-language-output.


Of course it is a nice experiment an certainly helpful for something 
like a tv shows, where spoken language is converted from sound to text 
to sign language, so that deaf people could use the same media as others do.


But in our case there already is something deaf people can use as good 
as anybodyelse: text and images. And while hearing people can benefit 
from an audio output by using there eyes for something else in the 
meantime, deaf people can't, because they need there eyes for sign 
language as much as for reading text?!


Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual 
into something visual?


// Martin

___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[MZMcBride]

James Heilman wrote:
>While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and
>are available for only a fraction of our articles.

Yep.

>Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
>clicked will read the article for the person in question?

I think this is an area where it might be difficult to know what's best to
do. A few unordered thoughts:

* We need to make sure that it's easy to distinguish between user interface
  text and other text we want to ignore (noise) from page content text
  (signal).

* People who really need text-to-speech tools have likely already
  installed them.

* Text-to-speech may be something that's better handled at the browser or
  operating system level, rather than at the Web site level.

* Even if text-to-speech isn't built into Wikimedia wikis, per se, we can
  always provide help/resource pages and guides for our users. For
  example, explaining how to install free text-to-speech software on
  common operating systems.

* A middle-ground option might be to explore what we can do to make it
  easier to programmatically distinguish signal from noise when reading a
  page. This would include (better) educating developers about
  accessibility concerns and educating wiki page authors about good
  and bad practices (do specify alt text, don't use images for text unless
  necessary, etc.). Plus there's the intersection of these two groups,
  such as developers implementing simpler user interfaces that allow wiki
  page authors to more easily add alt text to media. Or developers adding
  the ability to specify default alt text on a per-file basis, rather than
  requiring that alt text always be specified when the image is included on
  a page.

* Another middle-ground option might be trying to find some integration
  between text-to-speech-capable Web content and browsers. Perhaps
  similar to .

There's also what I would consider a subset of text-to-speech support
(word pronunciations) that is tracked at
.

MZMcBride



___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[James Heilman]

Okay have gone ahead and started a proposal here
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_%22Listen%22_Button

J

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:08 PM, James Heilman  wrote:

> Yes if there is no opposition to the idea I will post it to the IdeaLab.
> Thanks Pine :-)
>
> J
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Thanks for this suggestion. May I suggest that you post this idea in
>> IdeaLab? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab
>>
>> Siko, cc'd here, might be able to help advise about possible development
>> of this proposal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pine
>> On Jan 24, 2015 2:21 PM, "James Heilman"  wrote:
>>
>>> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and
>>> are
>>> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>>>
>>> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
>>> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>>>
>>> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
>>> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
>>> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of
>>> the
>>> Wikimedia Foundation.
>>>
>>> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Heilman
>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>>> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> 
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>
>


-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[James Heilman]

Yes if there is no opposition to the idea I will post it to the IdeaLab.
Thanks Pine :-)

J

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Thanks for this suggestion. May I suggest that you post this idea in
> IdeaLab? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab
>
> Siko, cc'd here, might be able to help advise about possible development
> of this proposal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
> On Jan 24, 2015 2:21 PM, "James Heilman"  wrote:
>
>> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and
>> are
>> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>>
>> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
>> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>>
>> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
>> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
>> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of
>> the
>> Wikimedia Foundation.
>>
>> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> James Heilman
>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>
>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>
>


-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Pine W]

Hi James,

Thanks for this suggestion. May I suggest that you post this idea in
IdeaLab? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab

Siko, cc'd here, might be able to help advise about possible development of
this proposal.

Thanks,

Pine
On Jan 24, 2015 2:21 PM, "James Heilman"  wrote:

> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>
> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>
> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
> Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[Cristian Consonni]

Il 24/Gen/2015 23:21 "James Heilman"  ha scritto:
>
> While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and
are
> available for only a fraction of our articles.
>
> Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
> clicked will read the article for the person in question?
>
> There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
> http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
> support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of
the
> Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?

(only marginally related, but this is to say that I like this idea)

A couple of years ago I contacted  a professor at the University of Siena
(Tuscany, Italy) which was the head of a project that built a
text-to-sign-language converter. The software was converting text in
Italian to LIS (Lingua Italiana dei Segni, Italian Sign Language) and was
tested also on the public television (see the website below).

The software is called Blue Sign:
http://www.bluesign.it/

Basically, since  the website said that the project was over, I asked them
to re-release the code with a free/libre open license which is a
precondition to use it on Wikipedia.

Despite some initial interest in the end the professor told me that it was
too complicated to contact every author (actually an handful of people) to
obtain their permission, so in the end this resulted in nothing :(.

Cristian
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

[Wikimedia-l] A "Listen" Button

[James Heilman]

While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
available for only a fraction of our articles.

Why don't we have a "Listen" button beside our read button that when
clicked will read the article for the person in question?

There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
Wikimedia Foundation.

I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,