Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-11-01 Thread Fæ 
On 31 October 2015 at 17:43, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:
...
> Rodrigo reports:
>
> Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> Uploaders: 411
> New users registered on Commons:  325
> New users engagement: 79%
> Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
>
> Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed it
> was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.

The comment here puzzled me, especially from an involved GAC member,
as grant targets should not be "stretch targets" but realistic
commitments to be met with the invested money. I went back to read the
grant page and accurately it can be stated (traffic light colours
added by me):[1]

1. [GREEN] at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
2. [RED] at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
3. [RED] at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia [i.e. > 666
photographs in use];
4. [GREEN] at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
5. [RED] at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in
Brasil [no report];
6. [RED] at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the
contest [no report].

There are a number of clarifications on the grant talk page,
especially Wang's (WMF) significant questions raised under "WMF
comments". The clarifications add detail to the above 6 measures, but
also make some further commitments which have yet to be reported on.
Based on this detail, it would not be possible to "close-out" the
grant against reported results until December 2015. I recommend that
the Wikimedia Community Brazilian Group of Education and Research go
the extra mile to measure and report the detail so that their 2016
grant applications can demonstrate learning from the targets that were
met or not met in this project.

== Technical Note ==
Most of the measurements can be produced from using SQL on the Commons
and Wikipedia(s) databases, if the more web-friendly tools such as
Catscan are not up to the job. It may be worth asking for help at [2]
or [3] if this gets stuck/seems a lot of effort, as such scripts are
fairly easy to re-run each month and can be 'recycled' in coming years
once worked out.

== Community Observation ==
It might help future on-wiki discussion if questions are
enumerated/logged and seen to be responded to in a non-personalized
style. Even if the perception is that someone is griefing the project
or organization, if you can bat back questions with formal and direct
replies with hard measurements and statistics, or a clear explanation
of why it is not worth the volunteer or staff time to report in some
areas, then not only would the questions dry up, but they form a
useful foundation for future more robust grant requests. Keep in mind
that testing questions do add value.

Links:
1. 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success
2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Bots/Work_requests
3. IRC #wikimedia-tech
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels#MediaWiki_and_technical

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Richard Ames 
Please slow this conversation down and do not personalise it.

Regards, Richard
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton 
WereSpielChequers,

I talked about that in the thread, if WLM and WLE would be closer (some
countries are) to communities WP, Commons,...  the result would be better.
" I would like to see Wikimedia Commons volunteers be involved in the
process, to create more clear, précised, and aligned rules for the contest,
otherwise they will use Commons as a uploader" same for WP. This
communities, directly impacted by this contests should develop the metrics,
not the ones requesting money.

How this projects will help WP/Commons if they are not listening the
communities? They probably are creating more problem than solutions.

This talk is about that:
https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen?language=en



On 31 October 2015 at 18:57, WereSpielChequers 
wrote:

> Maybe it is time to reconsider some of our standard metrics for wiki loves
> monuments.
>
> One of the big gains in several countries has been to get a list of
> monuments into Wikipedia maybe in future direct into wikidata. I think that
> the standard metrics should reflect that, OK it is metadata, but our
> metrics should put more value on the metadata we achieve.
>
> Sometimes wiki loves monuments gives us lots more images of something we
> already have reasonable pictures of. Sometimes it gives us images of
> notable monuments that we don't yet have articles about. Or it gives us
> interior shots of a building that already have a featured photo of the
> exterior.
>
> I suggest we think of three metrics here:
> How many monuments have we gone from no images to images?
> How many monuments do we have better quality images for?
> How many monuments do we have images for more of their features?
>
> Number of images used is an over hasty metric, perhaps five years after
> the contest we could measure this and get a very different statistic.
> Sometimes we need much more patience to see how wikipedians will use
> materials over time. This is likely to be especially true in countries
> where we don't currently have much coverage in terms of articles.
>
> Another way to tell the story is to give us examples of gaps that we have
> filled. For example, the article on *** church explained that it was
> listed as a national monument because of the quality of the frescos inside
> it, as a result of WLM we now have photos of those frescos available for
> the article.
>
>
>
> 
> >
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:23:45 -0200
> > From: Rodrigo Padula 
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Enc: Re:  WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers
> > Message-ID:
> ><150bf24187a.1270e0110548608.5396703623173748...@wikimedia.org.br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > I see a lot of good results and contributions here and as pointed by
> Ilario, we reached great part of our measures of success
> >
> > WLM 2015
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Campaign:wlm-br
> > - 4.453 photos
> > - 411 uploaders
> > - 325 new users registered on commons
> >
> > WLM 2014+2015
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Campaign:wle-br
> > - 20 095 photos
> > - 2866 uploaders
> > - 2727 new users registered on commons
> >
> > Only to complete, the first place on WLE 2014 was elected the second
> place on the WLE 2014 International and that same picture was selected in
> 7# place during the picture of the year on commons.
> >
> > Now in 2015 we have more pictures selected in the WLE international
> contest.
> >
> > Including all the media coverage and all impact on social media, for a
> small User Group approved in 2015, it's huge!!!
> >
> > Rodrigo Padula
> > Coordenador de Projetos
> > Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
> > http://www.wikimedia.org.br
> > 21 99326-0558
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Em Sáb, 31 Out 2015 15:43:49 -0200 Ilario
> Valdelli escreveu 
> >
> > Again, and again.
> >
> > "Success for whom"?
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success
> >
> > The section "measure of success" reports:
> >
> > at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
> > at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
> > at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia;
> > at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
> > at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in Brasil;
> > at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the contest.
> >
> > Rodrigo reports:
> >
> > Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> > Uploaders: 411
> > New users registered on Commons: 325
> > New users engagement: 79%
> > Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
> >
> >
> > Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed
> > it was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.
> >
> > There is no success for a specific person on an individual and personal
> > criteria.
> >
> > The user group of Brazil has not asked nothing speci

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread WereSpielChequers 
Maybe it is time to reconsider some of our standard metrics for wiki loves 
monuments. 

One of the big gains in several countries has been to get a list of monuments 
into Wikipedia maybe in future direct into wikidata. I think that the standard 
metrics should reflect that, OK it is metadata, but our metrics should put more 
value on the metadata we achieve.

Sometimes wiki loves monuments gives us lots more images of something we 
already have reasonable pictures of. Sometimes it gives us images of notable 
monuments that we don't yet have articles about. Or it gives us interior shots 
of a building that already have a featured photo of the exterior.

I suggest we think of three metrics here:
How many monuments have we gone from no images to images?
How many monuments do we have better quality images for?
How many monuments do we have images for more of their features?

Number of images used is an over hasty metric, perhaps five years after the 
contest we could measure this and get a very different statistic. Sometimes we 
need much more patience to see how wikipedians will use materials over time. 
This is likely to be especially true in countries where we don't currently have 
much coverage in terms of articles.

Another way to tell the story is to give us examples of gaps that we have 
filled. For example, the article on *** church explained that it was listed 
as a national monument because of the quality of the frescos inside it, as a 
result of WLM we now have photos of those frescos available for the article.




> 
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:23:45 -0200
> From: Rodrigo Padula 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Enc: Re:  WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers
> Message-ID:
><150bf24187a.1270e0110548608.5396703623173748...@wikimedia.org.br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I see a lot of good results and contributions here and as pointed by Ilario, 
> we reached great part of our measures of success 
> 
> WLM 2015
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Campaign:wlm-br  
> - 4.453 photos
> - 411 uploaders
> - 325 new users registered on commons 
> 
> WLM 2014+2015
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Campaign:wle-br 
> - 20 095 photos
> - 2866 uploaders
> - 2727 new users registered on commons
> 
> Only to complete, the first place on WLE 2014 was elected the second place on 
> the WLE 2014 International and that same picture was selected in 7# place 
> during the picture of the year on commons.
> 
> Now in 2015 we have more pictures selected in the WLE international contest.
> 
> Including all the media coverage and all impact on social media, for a small 
> User Group approved in 2015, it's huge!!!
> 
> Rodrigo Padula
> Coordenador de Projetos
> Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
> http://www.wikimedia.org.br
> 21 99326-0558
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Em Sáb, 31 Out 2015 15:43:49 -0200 Ilario 
> Valdelli escreveu  
> 
> Again, and again.
> 
> "Success for whom"?
> 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success
> 
> The section "measure of success" reports:
> 
> at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
> at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
> at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia;
> at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
> at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in Brasil;
> at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the contest.
> 
> Rodrigo reports:
> 
> Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> Uploaders: 411
> New users registered on Commons: 325
> New users engagement: 79%
> Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
> 
> 
> Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed 
> it was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.
> 
> There is no success for a specific person on an individual and personal 
> criteria.
> 
> The user group of Brazil has not asked nothing special, this is a normal 
> budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries.
> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Michael Peel 

> On 31 Oct 2015, at 18:34, Rodrigo Padula  
> wrote:
> 
> A lot of contests in Brasil pay prizes around R$10.000-R$60.000, the value of 
> the prizes that we gave in Brasil are considered low by many participants and 
> professionals in that field.

Isn't that something like 5-30 times the monthly average wage in Brazil, with 
the R$2.000 1st prize for WLM being around the average monthly wage?
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/brazil/wages 


Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Rodrigo Padula 
We did a long research in 2014 to define the prizes as described in the budget 
request and reports to WMF.

A lot of contests in Brasil pay prizes around R$10.000-R$60.000, the value of 
the prizes that we gave in Brasil are considered low by many participants and 
professionals in that field.

As described on the grant requests, the prizes was approved by GAC and WMF 
staff my friend.

I really cant get your point here! You had the opportunity to organize this 
contest for many years and nothing was done.

Why you never tried to organize that contests by yourself following your 
recomendations, ideas and values of prizes since you are so interested in that 
subject?



Our planning pages are always open to contributions, not fallacies. To 
criticize is always the easiest way to feel contributing. Just do something my 
friend and help us to move forward, not backward!

Rodrigo Padula
Coordenador de Projetos
Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
http://www.wikimedia.org.br
21 99326-0558




 Em Sáb, 31 Out 2015 16:22:14 -0200 Rodrigo Tetsuo 
Argenton escreveu  

"this is a normal budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries."

WLE Brazil prizes: 3'300 EUR (2014) 3'000 EUR (2015) WLM 1800 EUR (2015)
[1]


WLE Thailand: 510 EUR (2014) Tunisia: 558 EUR (2015) Spain and Portugal: 1400
EUR (2015)...
WLM: Ireland: 550 EUR (2015) Latvia 500 EUR (2015) Spain 700 EUR (2015)

normal? normal would be 500 EUR in prizes. Not 6 times more.




[1] and the currency sky rocketed between 2014-15
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=BRL&view=2Y

On 31 October 2015 at 15:43, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> Again, and again.
>
> "Success for whom"?
>
>
> 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success
>
> The section "measure of success" reports:
>
> at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
> at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
> at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia;
> at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
> at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in Brasil;
> at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the contest.
>
> Rodrigo reports:
>
> Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> Uploaders: 411
> New users registered on Commons: 325
> New users engagement: 79%
> Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
>
>
> Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed
> it was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.
>
> There is no success for a specific person on an individual and personal
> criteria.
>
> The user group of Brazil has not asked nothing special, this is a normal
> budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries.
>
>
>
>
> On 31.10.2015 18:20, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:
>
>> quality of work.
>>
>> Again "Success for whom?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
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> ;
>



-- 
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com
+55 11 979 718 884
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;



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton 
"this is a normal budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries."

WLE Brazil prizes: 3'300 EUR (2014)  3'000 EUR (2015) WLM 1800 EUR (2015)
[1]


WLE  Thailand: 510 EUR (2014) Tunisia: 558 EUR (2015) Spain and Portugal: 1400
EUR (2015)...
WLM: Ireland:  550 EUR (2015)   Latvia 500 EUR (2015)  Spain 700 EUR (2015)

normal? normal would be 500 EUR in prizes. Not 6 times more.




[1] and the currency sky rocketed between 2014-15
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=BRL&view=2Y

On 31 October 2015 at 15:43, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> Again, and again.
>
> "Success for whom"?
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success
>
> The section "measure of success" reports:
>
> at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
> at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
> at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia;
> at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
> at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in Brasil;
> at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the contest.
>
> Rodrigo reports:
>
> Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> Uploaders: 411
> New users registered on Commons:  325
> New users engagement: 79%
> Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
>
>
> Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed
> it was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.
>
> There is no success for a specific person on an individual and personal
> criteria.
>
> The user group of Brazil has not asked nothing special, this is a normal
> budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries.
>
>
>
>
> On 31.10.2015 18:20, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:
>
>> quality of work.
>>
>> Again "Success for whom?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
> ___
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> 
>



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rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com
+55 11 979 718 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Ilario Valdelli 

Again, and again.

"Success for whom"?

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015#Measures_of_success

The section "measure of success" reports:

at least 400 participants uploading one photograph or more;
at least 5,000 photos uploaded;
at least 15% of photos used on Wikipedia;
at least 50% of new users engagement during the contest;
at least 10 new articles about natural heritage sites in Brasil;
at least 10% of new user retention after 2 months of the contest.

Rodrigo reports:

Pictures uploaded: 4.443
Uploaders: 411
New users registered on Commons:  325
New users engagement: 79%
Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)


Are the goals reached? Basically yes. When the project has been financed 
it was clear that the definition "success" was based on those measures.


There is no success for a specific person on an individual and personal 
criteria.


The user group of Brazil has not asked nothing special, this is a normal 
budget for any WLM or WLE in several countries.





On 31.10.2015 18:20, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:

quality of work.

Again "Success for whom?"






--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton 
Funny.

Gerald: "What do YOU hope" [again YOU*]  Me: "My point is not important
here" Gerald:" When your point of view is that other people spending money
is wrong because it does not conform to your ideas"

???

I don't have a point, I'm asking "Success for whom?" I asked that, and "you
did not answer the question", I'm not have a argumentation, I'm asking
because I can't see any benefit, as a Brazilian, as a Wikimedia Commons
volunteer, as a Wikimedia Movement volunteer. You did not answer that also,
and use some ad hominem for??

And:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk%3APEG%2FWikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research%2FWiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015&type=revision&diff=12031383&oldid=12029848

WMF ignored us and approved this. And WLE and WLM at this moment in Brazil
is not a good investment to donated money. I'm doing other thinks that are
resulting in Featured Pictures and Quality Images, and approaching the
university, you are not seeing, because we don't burn WMF money. And money
is not to burn, is to invest. Sample of work:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Illustration_Programme, see the
rate of QI and FP per photo, and the money used (zero), and WP used. I will
not list all here because this is not about me, it was just to refuted your
statements "When your ideas do not work", "did you not do this job", ...

"Money is there to burn as long as it probably leads to results"

Results, results for whom? Which results? For the Wikimedia Movement? If it
is, I can't see they delivering any good result, that's why so many
"negativity".

I'm not worried about spending money, I'm worried about the bad used of
money, pay for contribution, and to make it worse, receiving very low
quality of work.

Again "Success for whom?"


On 31 October 2015 at 14:06, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> So you did not answer the question. What is it that you aim to achieve. I
> get words, no ideas, nothing. Only negativity.
>
> Money is there to burn as long as it probably leads to results. The results
> should not be compared with what is done elsewhere when elsewhere is
> incomparable. When your point of view is that other people spending money
> is wrong because it does not conform to your ideas, then I pity you because
> why did you not do this job, why did you allow that situation to exist in
> the first place. When your ideas do not work, you may indeed blame others.
> Fine, move on.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 31 October 2015 at 16:15, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton <
> rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gerard,
> >
> > This "you" is for me? Right?
> >
> > Well I'm really asking here for whom this was successful, and tried to
> > explore the several layers that could be impacted by this.
> >
> > My point is not important here, but this is a conversation, so:
> >
> > Measure of success:
> > Wikimedia Commons receiving a good impact by this, new active volunteers
> > that understand "free" "elaborative" "volunteers", new good quality
> images,
> > new documentation to facilitate the penetration of new comers. [1]
> > At least 100 featured pictures for each 1'000 USD invested[2], and at
> least
> > 10% of retention with those characteristics listed.
> >
> > Wikipedia having a bunch of articles illustrated, with good quality
> image,
> > and receiving more volunteers willing to help, increasing not only the
> > illustration of the article, but also the article it self. [3]
> > At least 10 featured articles or 30 four stars articles, of those
> National
> > Parks mentioned for 1'000 USD invested. For being a Featured Article amd
> > fou star at WP-pt, images are a must have.
> >
> > "off-line", this activity involving several volunteers that would create
> > activities to spread the Wikimedia Movement outside the Wiki word,
> > facilitating the journey to get in the Free Culture.
> >
> >
> > And the more 30'000 USD that I was referring was about WLE 2014/15 and
> WLE.
> > WLE 2014 they talked about 20'000 USD in this event, and we will not
> have a
> > clearance on that, because they use the Brazilian Program to burn this
> > money, and we don't have any serious report, and evaluation from the
> > community, see the report [4].
> >
> >
> > Fae, I did some raw comparatives for this WLE 2014:
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Bad_usage_of_money_in_Brazil
> >
> > And tried to bring the readers to the local reality, this waste of money
> > was totally ridiculous.
> > WLM made this comparatives also. We can put some "price" to that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I started this email before Padula's answer, "we receive more
> international
> > community support than local support ", because the local community know
> > you, don't trust in you, they isolated you, and some of them have very
> > strong opposition to your permanence in Wikimedia Movement. [5] But we
> are
> > not talking about you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [1] I would like to see Wikime

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
So you did not answer the question. What is it that you aim to achieve. I
get words, no ideas, nothing. Only negativity.

Money is there to burn as long as it probably leads to results. The results
should not be compared with what is done elsewhere when elsewhere is
incomparable. When your point of view is that other people spending money
is wrong because it does not conform to your ideas, then I pity you because
why did you not do this job, why did you allow that situation to exist in
the first place. When your ideas do not work, you may indeed blame others.
Fine, move on.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 31 October 2015 at 16:15, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton <
rodrigo.argen...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gerard,
>
> This "you" is for me? Right?
>
> Well I'm really asking here for whom this was successful, and tried to
> explore the several layers that could be impacted by this.
>
> My point is not important here, but this is a conversation, so:
>
> Measure of success:
> Wikimedia Commons receiving a good impact by this, new active volunteers
> that understand "free" "elaborative" "volunteers", new good quality images,
> new documentation to facilitate the penetration of new comers. [1]
> At least 100 featured pictures for each 1'000 USD invested[2], and at least
> 10% of retention with those characteristics listed.
>
> Wikipedia having a bunch of articles illustrated, with good quality image,
> and receiving more volunteers willing to help, increasing not only the
> illustration of the article, but also the article it self. [3]
> At least 10 featured articles or 30 four stars articles, of those National
> Parks mentioned for 1'000 USD invested. For being a Featured Article amd
> fou star at WP-pt, images are a must have.
>
> "off-line", this activity involving several volunteers that would create
> activities to spread the Wikimedia Movement outside the Wiki word,
> facilitating the journey to get in the Free Culture.
>
>
> And the more 30'000 USD that I was referring was about WLE 2014/15 and WLE.
> WLE 2014 they talked about 20'000 USD in this event, and we will not have a
> clearance on that, because they use the Brazilian Program to burn this
> money, and we don't have any serious report, and evaluation from the
> community, see the report [4].
>
>
> Fae, I did some raw comparatives for this WLE 2014:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Bad_usage_of_money_in_Brazil
>
> And tried to bring the readers to the local reality, this waste of money
> was totally ridiculous.
> WLM made this comparatives also. We can put some "price" to that.
>
>
>
>
>
> I started this email before Padula's answer, "we receive more international
> community support than local support ", because the local community know
> you, don't trust in you, they isolated you, and some of them have very
> strong opposition to your permanence in Wikimedia Movement. [5] But we are
> not talking about you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [1] I would like to see Wikimedia Commons volunteers be involved in the
> process, to create more clear, précised, and aligned rules for the contest,
> otherwise they will use Commons as a uploader, ignoring the community, and
> creating some issues, as massive deletion necessities. Also they have
> participate in Commons community, because during those contests volunteers
> of Commons had to help their contester, not knowing what is going on, or
> having a unexpected demand, as several questions in Portuguese in help
> cafes, and none volunteer who speaks pt ready there (I tried to help, but
> I'm not omniscient and omnipresent). (Same happened for Mexico contest).
> And they did not oriented about Wikimedia Commons, the legacy left by the
> contest was a ocean of "humm... okay", or over-processed downsized images.
> The ones that received the quality approval of the community, normally had
> to be edited by us. New volunteers, new documentation, quality images or
> else, nothing was created.
>
>
> [2] I know how much cost me to produce a Featured Picture, and it's
> something very close to that.
>
> [3]Lets take the first five images of the contest, and their respective
> articles:
>
> 1° - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajedo_de_Pai_Mateus
> 2°  - don't have a article for that. (image not in use)
> 3°  - don't have a article for that.
> 4° - article about the city:
> https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Jos%C3%A9_dos_Ausentes (image not
> in
> use)
> 5° - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambaba (image not in use).
>
> All of those had images to illustrate the article before it shows up, and 3
> of 5 are not in use in any WP... 3 of 5 in the winners, less then 2% in
> total are in use, and normally just adding one more photo to the article,
> not illustrating the article, or receiving better images. This would be
> avoid, if the coordination had a conversation with the local community and
> listed articles without any picture, or very poor ones. Most of those
> stills with none image... samples:
> https://pt.wikipedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton 
Gerard,

This "you" is for me? Right?

Well I'm really asking here for whom this was successful, and tried to
explore the several layers that could be impacted by this.

My point is not important here, but this is a conversation, so:

Measure of success:
Wikimedia Commons receiving a good impact by this, new active volunteers
that understand "free" "elaborative" "volunteers", new good quality images,
new documentation to facilitate the penetration of new comers. [1]
At least 100 featured pictures for each 1'000 USD invested[2], and at least
10% of retention with those characteristics listed.

Wikipedia having a bunch of articles illustrated, with good quality image,
and receiving more volunteers willing to help, increasing not only the
illustration of the article, but also the article it self. [3]
At least 10 featured articles or 30 four stars articles, of those National
Parks mentioned for 1'000 USD invested. For being a Featured Article amd
fou star at WP-pt, images are a must have.

"off-line", this activity involving several volunteers that would create
activities to spread the Wikimedia Movement outside the Wiki word,
facilitating the journey to get in the Free Culture.


And the more 30'000 USD that I was referring was about WLE 2014/15 and WLE.
WLE 2014 they talked about 20'000 USD in this event, and we will not have a
clearance on that, because they use the Brazilian Program to burn this
money, and we don't have any serious report, and evaluation from the
community, see the report [4].


Fae, I did some raw comparatives for this WLE 2014:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Bad_usage_of_money_in_Brazil

And tried to bring the readers to the local reality, this waste of money
was totally ridiculous.
WLM made this comparatives also. We can put some "price" to that.





I started this email before Padula's answer, "we receive more international
community support than local support ", because the local community know
you, don't trust in you, they isolated you, and some of them have very
strong opposition to your permanence in Wikimedia Movement. [5] But we are
not talking about you.






[1] I would like to see Wikimedia Commons volunteers be involved in the
process, to create more clear, précised, and aligned rules for the contest,
otherwise they will use Commons as a uploader, ignoring the community, and
creating some issues, as massive deletion necessities. Also they have
participate in Commons community, because during those contests volunteers
of Commons had to help their contester, not knowing what is going on, or
having a unexpected demand, as several questions in Portuguese in help
cafes, and none volunteer who speaks pt ready there (I tried to help, but
I'm not omniscient and omnipresent). (Same happened for Mexico contest).
And they did not oriented about Wikimedia Commons, the legacy left by the
contest was a ocean of "humm... okay", or over-processed downsized images.
The ones that received the quality approval of the community, normally had
to be edited by us. New volunteers, new documentation, quality images or
else, nothing was created.


[2] I know how much cost me to produce a Featured Picture, and it's
something very close to that.

[3]Lets take the first five images of the contest, and their respective
articles:

1° - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajedo_de_Pai_Mateus
2°  - don't have a article for that. (image not in use)
3°  - don't have a article for that.
4° - article about the city:
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Jos%C3%A9_dos_Ausentes (image not in
use)
5° - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambaba (image not in use).

All of those had images to illustrate the article before it shows up, and 3
of 5 are not in use in any WP... 3 of 5 in the winners, less then 2% in
total are in use, and normally just adding one more photo to the article,
not illustrating the article, or receiving better images. This would be
avoid, if the coordination had a conversation with the local community and
listed articles without any picture, or very poor ones. Most of those
stills with none image... samples:
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Nacional_da_Amaz%C3%B4nia
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Nacional_Serra_da_Mocidade
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Nacional_da_Serra_da_Cutia
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Nacional_de_Paca%C3%A1s_Novos
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Nacional_de_Serra_das_Lontras

check: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_de_parques_nacionais_do_Brasil,
see the number of red links

and just for fun, try to open the first articles about beaches in this
list: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_de_praias_de_Santa_Catarina

Understand four star articles.
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predefini%C3%A7%C3%A3o:Escala_de_avalia%C3%A7%C3%A3o

[4] the only report
https://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Earth/2014

values on this report
13.000 + 6.950,00 + 13.900,00 + 2*( 2.500,00 + 1.500,00 + 1.000,00) =
43'850 BRL ~ 20'000 USD at the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Fæ 
We have many years of running these very similar projects. It should
be possible to compare the value of outcomes against each other to see
if some use better practices than others, and then to help assess
future grant proposals for their potential value against estimated
costs.

I agree that outcomes are more than quantity of images, and the large
WMF programme evaluation training had precisely the aim of ensuring
that all funded projects would apply non-subjective measures of
value (i.e. investment per image, investment per new editor,
investment per new article are all measurable). One issue raised
was the poor quality of a significant number of images, and quality
should be part of the measurability of claimed outcomes. The original
post in this thread mentioned that 86 photographs have been used on
Wikipedia, this is a reasonable measure of quality, though investing
$11,000 for this outcome is probably an unfair comparison, so others
are needed.

When programmes include competitions with prizes, then this requires
special attention at the grant stage due as, again, we have
experienced several controversies around programmes reliant on this
method.

We may wish to change the thread title, but the governance questions
raised are relevant and are best not dismissed with "stop wasting our
time on an email thread which should be about good PR".

Fae

On 31 October 2015 at 11:28, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:
> On 31.10.2015 12:12, Fæ wrote:
>>
>> On 31 Oct 2015 11:00, "Ilario Valdelli"  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 31.10.2015 11:46, Fæ wrote:

 Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
 per photograph?

 Fae
>>>
>>> 30.000 is exact, but they are 30.000 Real which means 11.000 USD.
>>
>> Cool. So about $2.50 per image.
>>
>> This looks expensive compared to my upload projects (the last 500,000
>> images have cost $0.00 in total) but perhaps the benchmark is better when
>> measures against other WLM projects.
>>
>> Anyone have the numbers to show comparative value?
>>
>> Fae
>
>
> Using a bot to collect images in internet probably would have been lesser
> than 0$ per image.
>
> Anyway the real calculation of an impact of a project is not so simple.
>
> Because if we would use the same parameters, people reading this thread have
> spent more than 5 minutes, and calculating the sum of people reading this
> thread we can calculate a big time waste.
>
> We can say that this thread is really time-expensive without producing a
> real impact. But we know that this mailing list is done to help the
> communication and not to calculate the time waste, so a thread like this is
> accepted.
>
> I have put the links, it's sufficient to read the measures of the success to
> know that the aim of the project is not to produce only images.
>
> Kind regards
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH

-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Jane Darnell 
I totally agree with Ilario here. We have yet to put a financial value on a
Wikimedia contributor time unit, but I would venture to say that if such
projects manage to procure even one Wikimedia contributor for the projects
then that is money well spent.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Ilario Valdelli 
wrote:

> On 31.10.2015 12:12, Fæ wrote:
>
>> On 31 Oct 2015 11:00, "Ilario Valdelli"  wrote:
>>
>>> On 31.10.2015 11:46, Fæ wrote:
>>>
 Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
 per photograph?

 Fae

>>> 30.000 is exact, but they are 30.000 Real which means 11.000 USD.
>>>
>> Cool. So about $2.50 per image.
>>
>> This looks expensive compared to my upload projects (the last 500,000
>> images have cost $0.00 in total) but perhaps the benchmark is better when
>> measures against other WLM projects.
>>
>> Anyone have the numbers to show comparative value?
>>
>> Fae
>>
>
> Using a bot to collect images in internet probably would have been lesser
> than 0$ per image.
>
> Anyway the real calculation of an impact of a project is not so simple.
>
> Because if we would use the same parameters, people reading this thread
> have spent more than 5 minutes, and calculating the sum of people reading
> this thread we can calculate a big time waste.
>
> We can say that this thread is really time-expensive without producing a
> real impact. But we know that this mailing list is done to help the
> communication and not to calculate the time waste, so a thread like this is
> accepted.
>
> I have put the links, it's sufficient to read the measures of the success
> to know that the aim of the project is not to produce only images.
>
> Kind regards
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
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> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Ilario Valdelli 

On 31.10.2015 12:12, Fæ wrote:

On 31 Oct 2015 11:00, "Ilario Valdelli"  wrote:

On 31.10.2015 11:46, Fæ wrote:

Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
per photograph?

Fae

30.000 is exact, but they are 30.000 Real which means 11.000 USD.

Cool. So about $2.50 per image.

This looks expensive compared to my upload projects (the last 500,000
images have cost $0.00 in total) but perhaps the benchmark is better when
measures against other WLM projects.

Anyone have the numbers to show comparative value?

Fae


Using a bot to collect images in internet probably would have been 
lesser than 0$ per image.


Anyway the real calculation of an impact of a project is not so simple.

Because if we would use the same parameters, people reading this thread 
have spent more than 5 minutes, and calculating the sum of people 
reading this thread we can calculate a big time waste.


We can say that this thread is really time-expensive without producing a 
real impact. But we know that this mailing list is done to help the 
communication and not to calculate the time waste, so a thread like this 
is accepted.


I have put the links, it's sufficient to read the measures of the 
success to know that the aim of the project is not to produce only images.


Kind regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Fæ 
On 31 Oct 2015 11:00, "Ilario Valdelli"  wrote:
>
> On 31.10.2015 11:46, Fæ wrote:
>> Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
>> per photograph?
>>
>> Fae
>
> 30.000 is exact, but they are 30.000 Real which means 11.000 USD.

Cool. So about $2.50 per image.

This looks expensive compared to my upload projects (the last 500,000
images have cost $0.00 in total) but perhaps the benchmark is better when
measures against other WLM projects.

Anyone have the numbers to show comparative value?

Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Ilario Valdelli 

On 31.10.2015 11:46, Fæ wrote:

On 31 October 2015 at 02:26, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
 wrote:
...

And this money, more then 30'000 USD, come from WMF for the WLE 2014/15 and

Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
per photograph?

Fae


Probably the best is to look directly in the grants:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/UG_BR-ER/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_Brasil_2015
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research/Wiki_Loves_Earth_Brasil_2015

30.000 is exact, but they are 30.000 Real which means 11.000 USD.

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-31 Thread Fæ 
On 31 October 2015 at 02:26, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
 wrote:
...
> And this money, more then 30'000 USD, come from WMF for the WLE 2014/15 and

Hang on. Could I have an independent reality check; is that really $7
per photograph?

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-30 Thread Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton 
"success of WLE Brasil 2015"

Success for whom?

*For the Wikimedia Commons **it was totally **innocuous. *

Less then 0,16% was a good quality image, including several snapshots
(mobile made), downsized images; the retention probably will follow WLE
BR 2014 and goona be very close to 0. No work was developed in conjunction
with the WCommons, and could created a problem, people got paid with
thousands for bad photos, and volunteers there producing real content...
And this money, more then 30'000 USD, come from WMF for the WLE 2014/15 and
WLM in Brazil, and in the other hand, WP-en removed hundreds of people
getting paid for contribution, how it's different? Oh yeah, the money did
not came from donations...

*For the Wikipedia it was barely nothing.*

The volume of images used was very low, and even in the list of winners, a
lot of those images do not have any education purpose, or do not properly
illustrates the site. And very low involvement of the community, retention
was none.

For the "off-line community" , :D...

Were are this people? The other coordinator named in the website [1], are
not even close to be involved with the community, check his FB:[2], very
active, none WLE/WLM publications... Commons: [3], any help with this
contests. People listed in the WUG group did not signed by themselves[4]...

And " including contributions from teachers and students..."???  "educational
program."??? I think that "they" are hidden it in a very deep place, not
even "their" website have any clues fof that[5], or "their" Facebook [6],
Meta [7]... "Their" partners are not related to educational programmes [8],
most of them are related to photography, for obvious reasons. as far we can
see, "they" are just burn WMF money to make this contests (for ???)...

*Two observation:*

 .ORG.BR are websites restricted to ONG registered in legal terms here in
Brazil, or they already have a legal association and are not telling to
AffCom, or they don't have that and is putting the Wikimedia name in
some scheme
circumventing laws...


*The scope of the group, which can be found on their application, is "to
support the participation of teachers, researchers and employees of several
national institutions that participate in the Education Program of
Wikimedia in Brazil, aiming to integrate the academic community to the
Wikimedia movement, creating a more friendly and responsive environment for
the development of projects, research, contests, events and other
activities." *[9]

How this contests are related to this scope?


Again

Success for whom?


Links:

[1]http://www.wikimedia.org.br/sobre.html
[2]https://www.facebook.com/pedro.napolitanomendes
[3]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?limit=500&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Zoldyick&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2015&month=-1
[4]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research&type=revision&diff=12244391&oldid=12244235
[5]http://www.wikimedia.org.br/projetos
[6]https://www.facebook.com/grupowikimediabr
[7]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research
[8]http://www.wikimedia.org.br/parceiros.html
[9]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Wikimedia_Community_Brazilian_Group_of_Education_and_Research_-_Liaison_approval,_April_2015











On 30 October 2015 at 20:42, Rodrigo Padula 
wrote:

> Hello my friends,
>
> After many years of Wiki Loves Monuments around the world, finally we
> organized an edition of that important photo contest  in Brasil.
>
> Following the success of WLE Brasil 2015(supported by our fellows from
> Wikimedia Ukraine)  and counting with a lot of support from Romaine we
> finally completed that task after years of procrastination.
>
> The WLM Brasil 2015 was organized by the Wikimedia Community Brazilian
> Group of Education and Research, including contributions from teachers and
> students in a new approach for our educational program.
>
> Teachers and students from local universities supported us with
> marketing/communication and in the final process of pictures filtering for
> the judges evaluation.
>
> You can see the final result of WLM Brasil and the winners at
> http://www.wikimedia.org.br/wiki-loves-monuments-brasil-2015-vencedores.html
>
> Pictures uploaded: 4.443
> Uploaders: 411
> New users registered on Commons:  325
> New users engagement: 79%
> Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)
>
> Best regards
>
> Rodrigo Padula
> Coordenador de Projetos
> Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
> http://www.wikimedia.org.br
> 21 99326-0558
>
>
>
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>

[Wikimedia-l] WLM Brasil 2015 - Winners / Numbers

2015-10-30 Thread Rodrigo Padula 
Hello my friends,

After many years of Wiki Loves Monuments around the world, finally we organized 
an edition of that important photo contest  in Brasil.

Following the success of WLE Brasil 2015(supported by our fellows from 
Wikimedia Ukraine)  and counting with a lot of support from Romaine we finally 
completed that task after years of procrastination.

The WLM Brasil 2015 was organized by the Wikimedia Community Brazilian Group of 
Education and Research, including contributions from teachers and students in a 
new approach for our educational program.

Teachers and students from local universities supported us with 
marketing/communication and in the final process of pictures filtering for the 
judges evaluation.

You can see the final result of WLM Brasil and the winners at 
http://www.wikimedia.org.br/wiki-loves-monuments-brasil-2015-vencedores.html

Pictures uploaded: 4.443
Uploaders: 411
New users registered on Commons:  325
New users engagement: 79%
Pictures user on Wikipedia: 86 (2%)

Best regards

Rodrigo Padula
Coordenador de Projetos
Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
http://www.wikimedia.org.br
21 99326-0558



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