Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I won't defend all the crazy intrusions by government. SWEET RELIEF! :0: * .*Koskenmaki /dev/null :0: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Edward H. Winters wrote: In my case with less than 30 subs, one network operator (me), and tiny budget, there is no way i can afford even a low cost solution. let alone 4 or 5 employees. So unless some miracle occurs, I will close shop on May 12. What equipment is in your network, Ed? I suspect you are letting Mark's drivel get to you. Mission accomplished one less little guy in the mix. There's been so such mission. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Edward H. Winters wrote: I would roll my own, but even if i had a working intercept device (opencalea's tap program) it would still need to forward the collected data to the TTP for mediation. This is not the case. Be a little patient and there will be more information coming in just a few days. All is not so dark as one person seems to think. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Sun, 29 Apr 2007, Edward H. Winters wrote: the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. You are misinformed. See here: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=22 See question/answer 18. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Of course they do...that's what they do! They will need access to the intercept device (not your ap) in order to do what you pay them for. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Tue, 1 May 2007 03:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Apr 2007, Edward H. Winters wrote: the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. You are misinformed. See here: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=22 See question/answer 18. when you consult the fcc documents they point to existing standards which define exactly this. i understand wipsa's document was created from opinions of the wispa calea committee which were formed during informal talks with the government agencies ... when it comes down to the wire who do i trust, the one that has been set in stone by the government which offers safe harbor, or something which, until yesterday, seemed to be little more than rumor and wishful thinking. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Of course they do...that's what they do! They will need access to the intercept device (not your ap) in order to do what you pay them for. i understand the mechanics of calea and a trusted third party, if you read the previous message i expressed concerns about an unknown|untrusted device on my network and security issues these devices could create. marlon replied with a vague and misleading statement, so i clarified the TTP's position. Ed -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Tue, 1 May 2007, Edward H. Winters wrote: when you consult the fcc documents they point to existing standards which define exactly this. i understand wipsa's document was created from opinions of the wispa calea committee which were formed during informal talks with the government agencies ... when it comes down to the wire who do i trust, the one that has been set in stone by the government which offers safe harbor, or something which, until yesterday, seemed to be little more than rumor and wishful thinking. I'm not going to try to change your beliefs, but I will tell you this FAQ is not just opinion. The list of questions and our answers were reviewed by the FBI's CALEA Division. You can believe whomever you like. The FAQ does not (and cannot) provide safe harbor, because it is not an industry standards document. That part (the standard) is not, yet, complete. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
actually the prices are the least of my worry regarding calea. i am more worried about some untrusted device on my network. assuming i would have to give root on the at least tap device to the trusted third party. i've been told by some TTPs i would need to provide credentials for every device on my network. imo this a recipe for disaster. if that is the case what is keeping someone at the calea provider from using my subscriber's traffic for their own personal gain? who guarantees the integrity of the TTP? what if they get caught doing the above, who is liable? i imagine we are. at a national level it seems silly to entrust random entities with national security issues. is there any sort of certification for these companies? on the international level, if there is no certification process to test the ability to become a calea provider, what is stopping some rogue nation from creating a TTP infrastructure to spy with? Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:02:25 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
We've got a long way to go yet. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. You don't need a TTP. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more ability to understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like broadcast storms etc. You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the stuffing out of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be horribly expensive. MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work we'll do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll contract out to people like Bearhill. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon - Original Message - From: Edward H. Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page actually the prices are the least of my worry regarding calea. i am more worried about some untrusted device on my network. assuming i would have to give root on the at least tap device to the trusted third party. i've been told by some TTPs i would need to provide credentials for every device on my network. imo this a recipe for disaster. if that is the case what is keeping someone at the calea provider from using my subscriber's traffic for their own personal gain? who guarantees the integrity of the TTP? what if they get caught doing the above, who is liable? i imagine we are. at a national level it seems silly to entrust random entities with national security issues. is there any sort of certification for these companies? on the international level, if there is no certification process to test the ability to become a calea provider, what is stopping some rogue nation from creating a TTP infrastructure to spy with? Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:02:25 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those prices don't make me happy either. I have not heard an official anything yet from the wispa calea group. I don't believe they are done with their activities. It would be good to hear what they have to say concerning methods of compliance and costs. I read a doc that said a 15k isp could be 150k it also said it knew some isps had meager budgets and they said they will deal with that. I would assume they were not going to bankrupt a small isp. -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page We've got a long way to go yet. No, we have 3 weeks. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. No, of course not. Can YOU do this on your own? I suspect not. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's.Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you as hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have to sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's competition- which does not exist. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY!That's the whole problem in a nutshell.The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast majority of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people informally sharing something. networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more ability to understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like broadcast storms etc. I built my network right to begin with. I have no issues whatsoever with broadcast storms or otherwise.I only have to deal with things like virus and malware infected clients. You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the stuffing out of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be horribly expensive. You still do not get it. IT IS WRONG for them to transfer law enforcement duties to us, for their convenience. Dangit Marlon, it's just as if the cops demanded the gas stations GIVE them all the gas their cars need, and that the restaurants feed them for free and mechanics fix the cars for free, ISP's give them internet for free, telcos give them phones for free, blah, blah, blah. And darnit, I want to scare the stuffing out of EVERYONE so they'll stop being passive fools and STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, instead of being wiped out like lemmings. MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work we'll do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll contract out to people like Bearhill. And who can afford a TTP?Maybe you can. I don't even collect a paycheck. Where the hell do you think that money will come from?Gads. Have you completely forgotten what it was like to start up? Just hanging on by your teeth, when you had to buy stuff in 1's and 2's and 5's because that's ALL THERE WAS in the bank and all there was going to be?You never had to ask people for 10 days or 30 days now and then on a bill? You think money just grows on trees and we're all swimming in the falling leaves? marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:02
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Marlon, i understand the mechanics of it completely. the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:16:56 -0700 Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Same can be said of Insurance, since really that's what it is. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: don't forget, you can't charge LEA for the TTP's services. You may pay that TTP for years and they never do a single thing for you. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
I have contacted my representatives to express my support for Rep. Stupak's efforts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Mark Koskenmaki wrote: We're flying blind, here. None of us small guys have lawers, consultants, or super techies who can just do this, much less implement the time constraints and 24/7/365 aspects, etc. And we're wondering why the only organization devoted to our industry won't even appeal on our behalf to the authorities, and try to authoritatively explain to them they've gone far beyond the capabilities of most of the target networks. I agree that CALEA is burdensome, so you should be talking about how you can help Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.). You spent weeks bitching about it -- now ALL you should be doing is figuring out how to help him. BTW, TTP start at $700 or so per month and no upfront. Solera's box is just $7000, one time (and you could probably finance that). Stop reading here because the rest of this is going to peeve you: I have to say that if you can't afford lawyers, CPA's or techies or whatever it takes to make your business a business, and you aren't making a profit (assumed from the $100 in the bank), then maybe you have a hobby and not a business. Businesses in America have many, many regulations, laws, guidelines et al to follow from OSHA, FTC, FCC, Dept. Of Labor, IRS, etc. Too many people in this business take advice from listservs. And run their business like a hobby. This includes the way they approach the business, how they run it, and rules they disregard, ignore or don't know about. I don't know too many other industries like this one. Most are highly regulated. Most have a barrier to entry. Could you image if you Googled your doctor and found him asking for advice about his practice on a public listserv? I would venture that if I was concerned about health and found all this talk about illegal radios and high-power, I would worry about cancer rates in my area, find a lawyer, and sue for jeopardizing my health. With the looming deadline, I hope that you have asset protection in place. By that I mean, a business entity separating your personal assets from your business assets. You will probably find by June 1 that a couple of businesses have been hit with huge fines for CALEA non-compliance. It's coming. Again, work on helping Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.)., but at the same realize that most of this is too little too late. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... telecom services
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: There are many other ways for law enforcement to get what it needs. Even better would be a REAL law, written properly, and funded properly by Congress, instead of this absurdity about information services and telecommuncations services. You know, of course, that this hybrid 'standing' is about as shaky as a sand castle on the beach. It wont' be any time before we're fully telecommuncations services and the mandates and regulations and controls fly at us like vultures to roadkill or flies to a cowpie. Actually, shaky would be incorrect. Please read the Supreme Court's opinion on Brand-X. It states in no uncertain terms that the FCC is the agency of authority to decide what is and is not telecom and information services. It's not so much about telecom versus info; it's about Title I, II and III. CALEA falls under III, I believe, as do all providers in this space. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... telecom services
- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page telecom services Mark Koskenmaki wrote: There are many other ways for law enforcement to get what it needs. Even better would be a REAL law, written properly, and funded properly by Congress, instead of this absurdity about information services and telecommuncations services. You know, of course, that this hybrid 'standing' is about as shaky as a sand castle on the beach. It wont' be any time before we're fully telecommuncations services and the mandates and regulations and controls fly at us like vultures to roadkill or flies to a cowpie. Actually, shaky would be incorrect. Please read the Supreme Court's opinion on Brand-X. It states in no Shaky is the term I used, because this classification isn't law, just FCC opinion. That's obviously subject to whatever breeze blows through DC. Now that there is no longer consistency in all matters, the defense against further redefinition is little more than how much noise and ruckus we can raise. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page We've got a long way to go yet. No, we have 3 weeks. Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. But here are a few things so far. You don't NEED a safe harbor. You don't HAVE to follow anyone's industry standard to be compliant. No, of course not. Can YOU do this on your own? I suspect not. Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA. We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed right at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?! CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Right. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's.Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you as hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have to sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's competition- which does not exist. You don't have to be available 24/7/356. Didn't you read the FAQ? Didn't you file your forms? You just have to tell them who to call, and if there's no place to call 24/7 you have to tell them when they CAN likely reach you. By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost option for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign your Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY!That's the whole problem in a nutshell.The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast majority of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people informally sharing something. Grin. Again Mark, you
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Not so. Not always. In fact, not usually from what we've been told. They (lea) won't often have the ability to TAKE the data as fast as we can shove it out to the customer. With a PHONE call, that's likely the case. But unless you do VOIP, as in own the switch, the voip company will have to deal with that, not you. marlon - Original Message - From: Edward H. Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Marlon, i understand the mechanics of it completely. the provider or the TTP have to provide the information within 8 seconds of real time to the LEA via a mediation device. every trusted third party i have talked with so far wants access on at least the intercept device. Ed On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:16:56 -0700 Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work that way Ed. YOU have to provide the data to LEA. They don't get to go in and take it. marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nope. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. That's because you have money and credit and don't really care about doing the right thing, vis a vis federal mandates. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. But you can't point to a single one of them, and you have no idea how to make my network compliant. Not a clue. This is why I find this it's no big deal' so amazingly frustrating. What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. Marlon, either come out and state you think the requirements are just loose guidelines, or start admitting we're all clueless. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job. You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged. It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above. You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not follow *a* standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If you follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the standard. In other words, if you don't follow a standard then you're totally screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who can do anything. Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA. We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed right at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?! Not really. It wont' help me any. CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, solvents, brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just dumping it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin Huh? You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Right. You did not ask about antifreeze or greasy rags.Our rags came from a laundry service.We didn't have any antifreeze to deal with. transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for making this a better country. No shame in that. NOT AT ALL. It is NOT reasonable to expect the vast majority of the operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone answering to the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the incredibly expensive TTP's
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be compliant! Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing on devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some router or server work done now. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nope. I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried as you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads. That's because you have money and credit and don't really care about doing the right thing, vis a vis federal mandates. roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong! I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know *I'm* not gonna do that. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's nothing left to stand for. And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all drive on the right hand side of the road. You don't need a TTP. Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all back together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect accuracy. Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't charge more than OPEC to help you out. But you can't point to a single one of them, and you have no idea how to make my network compliant. Not a clue. This is why I find this it's no big deal' so amazingly frustrating. OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make your network compliant. Or don't you want to fix this problem? I know a gal that is always sick. She won't got to the doctor so that she can get better. She prefers to be sick. That's the way she gets attention. Staying sick. She NEEDS to be sick. I don't think you are like that though.?.?.? What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up to you. Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third party something, be it software or hardware or services. Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement. Marlon, either come out and state you think the requirements are just loose guidelines, or start admitting we're all clueless. Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true. I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but because no one else HAS. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start sweating more or relax a bit. thanks \ You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be compliant! Huh? You said we have as long as we need??? roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong! I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I Well, we could not disagree more. happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know *I'm* not gonna do that. I don't want to be in the position of having to do that. Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's nothing left to stand for. Ok. If you say so. Then WISPA has no purpose. And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all drive on the right hand side of the road. Sheesh. OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make your network compliant. I've already told you. Or don't you want to fix this problem? I don't want my industry playing dead when it comes to injustice from Uncle Sam. Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true. Right. Somehow I'll bet that getting the specific data into the format required is beyond the technical understanding of MOST of us. I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but because no one else HAS. But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help :-) Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin No, marlon. That's getting a building, some new backhaul eqipment, a router, and new site leases. THAT is what's required, Marlon.And that's all BEFORE I buy a TTP's service, or a box from someone, or any other such things. it's presuming that I can somehow muddle through the morass of stupidity on my own. Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start sweating more or relax a bit. thanks They have absolutely no clue what my network looks like, how the equipment it's built on works, or anything else relevant. And, no matter what their fee... I can't pay it. \ You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a decent understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical experience, and not even any theoretical education on how its done. Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. Whatever that is. The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged. It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above. It's the hardest part of the process. At least as far as I can tell so far. no, it's not. It's a simple command line applicaiton that returns the hash for a file / files / all files in a dir, etc. It's just tht you're going to have to maintain the original raw data
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Who is that someone? Why does wispa want to take an antagonistic stance towards legal high tech wiretapping? Isn't legal wiretapping essential to law enforcement? The only thing I can think of is to seek funds from the feds to implement this. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I know you're absolutely sick of hearing about it. But here's someone who actually intends to stand up and do something about CALEA. WISPA needs to join this fight. If you want these people supporting WISPA, support them! www.wispa.org Will WISPA actively seek to defend small networks - most of which will be wireless - from being simply shut down becasue they can't comply with mandates designed for telephone companies? -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why does wispa want to take an antagonistic stance towards legal high tech wiretapping? BECAUSE IT IS FREAKING WRONG, GEORGE, for the government to shift the cost of law enforcement to specific business entities for its own convenience. Why can't you see this? When I was in the electrical contracting business, I was forced to have all kinds of fees laid upon me to conduct business. This isp business is one of the least regulated with the least intrusive and least government costs. If your moaning and groaning about what will probably turn out to be very low cost solutions, (an assumption) what are you going to do when it comes time to hire employees and then fall inline with those government regulations and costs? -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
I won't defend all the crazy intrusions by government. But this is not a fee to conduct business. This isn't a tax. This is a mandate to carry out the functions of law enforcement for them, purely for thier convenience. It isn't even a regulation to enforce quality standards on internet services, nor consumer protection from shoddy internet services, nor is it even a protection from badly conducted wireless operations. Theoretically, your contractor's license and so on were consumer protection concerning the business you were in. The effectiveness can be debated, and this is not the place for that. But, CALEA has NOTHING to do with providing internet services nor consumer protection. It is simply transferrence of law enforcement functions to YOU to do at your own expense, by your own people and at YOUR OWN LIABILITY. If you mix up someone's traffic, because someone made a typo, do you REALLY think that you will be protected from the wrath of the legal eagles out to get you? Don't count on it. And it is impossible for small operators to be in complete compliance. And it presents an obstacle to technological innovation and it presents MAJOR obstacles to certtain types of desired network types, such as mesh. There are many other ways for law enforcement to get what it needs. Even better would be a REAL law, written properly, and funded properly by Congress, instead of this absurdity about information services and telecommuncations services. You know, of course, that this hybrid 'standing' is about as shaky as a sand castle on the beach. It wont' be any time before we're fully telecommuncations services and the mandates and regulations and controls fly at us like vultures to roadkill or flies to a cowpie. It's a very small thing to support the notion that small ISP's be exempt for obvious reasons. But you won't even do that? Why the bloody hell not? What have you got against them? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why does wispa want to take an antagonistic stance towards legal high tech wiretapping? BECAUSE IT IS FREAKING WRONG, GEORGE, for the government to shift the cost of law enforcement to specific business entities for its own convenience. Why can't you see this? When I was in the electrical contracting business, I was forced to have all kinds of fees laid upon me to conduct business. This isp business is one of the least regulated with the least intrusive and least government costs. If your moaning and groaning about what will probably turn out to be very low cost solutions, (an assumption) what are you going to do when it comes time to hire employees and then fall inline with those government regulations and costs? -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:17:17 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why does wispa want to take an antagonistic stance towards legal high tech wiretapping? BECAUSE IT IS FREAKING WRONG, GEORGE, for the government to shift the cost of law enforcement to specific business entities for its own convenience. Why can't you see this? When I was in the electrical contracting business, I was forced to have all kinds of fees laid upon me to conduct business. This isp business is one of the least regulated with the least intrusive and least government costs. If your moaning and groaning about what will probably turn out to be very low cost solutions, (an assumption) what are you going to do when it comes time to hire employees and then fall inline with those government regulations and costs? In my case with less than 30 subs, one network operator (me), and tiny budget, there is no way i can afford even a low cost solution. let alone 4 or 5 employees. So unless some miracle occurs, I will close shop on May 12. Mission accomplished one less little guy in the mix. Ed -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
George, From talking to equipment manufactures, law enforcement, and trusted third party providers. I would roll my own, but even if i had a working intercept device (opencalea's tap program) it would still need to forward the collected data to the TTP for mediation. Ed On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:53:48 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Because, like you, he can read the rules, and come to the conclusion that he simply cannot find a way to do everythign required. I can't either. You have safe harbor only if you're using an industry standard, and nobody can point us to one. Unless we have some kind pre-packaged setup, lots of people, including me, have absolutely NO IDEA how to do all the data manipulation and whatnot that's supposedly required. the only pre-packaged solutions are hundreds of dollars a month with a sizeable setup up front or 10, 20, or more thousands of dollars for a turnkey box that does at least some of the functions required. OpenCalea offers nothing to people in my shoes. We're all of what, three weeks from having to file that we're in compliance, and we can't point to anything yet? Where's this cheap solution going to magically spring from, and be trouble free and bug free and compliant? Face reality, it's not here and won't be. Instead, we're goin to string along, making promises and statements that we're going to comply, while we still have no price tag, much less cash in the bank to pay this. The longer we go, the less time there is to develop alternatives to some announced standard mechanism of for doing stuff, or some kind of standard software.. We're flying blind, here. None of us small guys have lawers, consultants, or super techies who can just do this, much less implement the time constraints and 24/7/365 aspects, etc. And we're wondering why the only organization devoted to our industry won't even appeal on our behalf to the authorities, and try to authoritatively explain to them they've gone far beyond the capabilities of most of the target networks. - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
don't forget, you can't charge LEA for the TTP's services. You may pay that TTP for years and they never do a single thing for you. - Original Message - From: Edward H. Winters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page George, From talking to equipment manufactures, law enforcement, and trusted third party providers. I would roll my own, but even if i had a working intercept device (opencalea's tap program) it would still need to forward the collected data to the TTP for mediation. Ed On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:53:48 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Have you heard actual costs yet? Edward H. Winters wrote: George, From talking to equipment manufactures, law enforcement, and trusted third party providers. I would roll my own, but even if i had a working intercept device (opencalea's tap program) it would still need to forward the collected data to the TTP for mediation. Ed On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:53:48 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
nothing concrete, but i will not sign a nondisclosure agreement with any of them at the moment either. i've been told everything from a few hundred a month, to thousands for the subscription, with setup (initial testing) fees ranging from around one thousand up to ten thousand. Ed On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:39:22 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you heard actual costs yet? Edward H. Winters wrote: George, From talking to equipment manufactures, law enforcement, and trusted third party providers. I would roll my own, but even if i had a working intercept device (opencalea's tap program) it would still need to forward the collected data to the TTP for mediation. Ed On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:53:48 -0700 George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know what the costs are Ed? George -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
