Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very poor links ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Hi, Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate? Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very poor links ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
I have 2x links at -78 and so Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Hi, Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate? Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very poor links ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Ok. thanks for the information. Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: I have 2x links at -78 and so Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Hi, Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate? Travis Microserv Gino A. Villarini wrote: Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very poor links ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
If you are buying all new hardware (P9) it will all do 2X rate (14Mbps). We run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's, here's why: With the Advantage AP you it will fun full 2X 14Mbps all the time. Legacy SM's will run Full 2x Rate for the duration of the burst setting in the SM, alter the Burt bucket is expended it will rate limit itself to a max 7Mbps, Still run in 2x rate but it limits the Ethernet port throughput. It is kind of confusing at first. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only running at 1x rate? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Don, you talking about the AZ event? DSJ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Renner Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:58 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) I will be in meetings with Motorola next week. Will see if can get done. What level did Alvarion commit to? Might help get them to make bigger outlay. Don Renner NetsurfUSA, Inc. 812-936-4514 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:44 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Im not sure whether they have yet. I think they were last year but I dont recall right now. Anyone who is a valuable Motorola customer want to take this on? Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at Canopy We have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for a sponsorship Stay tuned... -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI I'm back... WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only call them with Prizm/BAM problems. I really don't know that they have a Patrick but the area rep is helpful. He has always gotten me to the right person. Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047 Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola that is really good with WISPs. Someone who I can call and talk to as a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the hold music for an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their Patrick Leary. :)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their Patrick. After we know that we can talk to him about joining. Brian Dylan Oliver wrote: On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Thanks Charles, I figured you were on top of it. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:28 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at Canopy We have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for a sponsorship Stay tuned... -Charles --- Operating Manager - CTI I'm back... WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only call them with Prizm/BAM problems. I really don't know that they have a Patrick but the area rep is helpful. He has always gotten me to the right person. Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047 Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola that is really good with WISPs. Someone who I can call and talk to as a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the hold music for an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their Patrick Leary. :)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their Patrick. After we know that we can talk to him about joining. Brian Dylan Oliver wrote: On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
I was told a couple of days ago that the regular SMs are going away soon. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:26 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon You can have the cake and eat it too!! Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not sustained, only burstable. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Charles, I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP?? Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]-Original Message-From: Charles Wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:27 PMTo: ''WISPA General List''Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at CanopyWe have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for asponsorshipStay tuned...-Charles---Operating Manager - CTII'm back...WiNOG Wireless RoadshowsComing to a City Near Youhttp://www.winog.com -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OnBehalf Of Mike Bushard, JrSent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AMTo: 'WISPA General List'Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I onlycall them with Prizm/BAM problems.I really don't know that they have a "Patrick" but the area rep is helpful.He has always gotten me to the right person.Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047Mike Bushard, JrWisper Wireless Solutions, LLC-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OnBehalf Of Brian RohrbacherSent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola that is "really good with WISPs". Someone who I can call and talk to as a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary". :) *Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their "Patrick". After we know that we can talk to him about joining.BrianDylan Oliver wrote: On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
On 9/29/06, Ron Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles, I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP?? DUH. Google is your friend. It's *obviously* the Australasian College of Sports Physicians.;)-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Title: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Association of Closet and Storage Professionals http://www.closets.org/ Humm... Is Charles trying to tell us something :) On 9/29/06 4:22 PM, Dylan Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.acsp.org.au/ On 9/29/06, Ron Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles, I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP?? DUH. Google is your friend. It's *obviously* the Australasian College of Sports Physicians. http://www.acsp.org.au/ ;) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
So everything will be Advantage I wont complain. I wonder if the AP prices will drop then? Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Fowler Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:53 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon I was told a couple of days ago that the regular SMs are going away soon. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:26 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon You can have the cake and eat it too!! Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not sustained, only burstable. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Im not sure whether they have yet. I think they were last year but I dont recall right now. Anyone who is a valuable Motorola customer want to take this on? Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
I will be in meetings with Motorola next week. Will see if can get done. What level did Alvarion commit to? Might help get them to make bigger outlay. Don Renner NetsurfUSA, Inc. 812-936-4514 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:44 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Im not sure whether they have yet. I think they were last year but I dont recall right now. Anyone who is a valuable Motorola customer want to take this on? Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by becoming a vendor member? The WISPA Vendor Members text in the left column should be a link to either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership. Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up =$5k for advertising space on wispa.org? Are these the only Vendor Members?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola that is really good with WISPs. Someone who I can call and talk to as a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the hold music for an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their Patrick Leary. :)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their Patrick. After we know that we can talk to him about joining. Brian Dylan Oliver wrote: On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
You might want to take this discussion over to the Member list. Dylan Oliver wrote: Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by becoming a vendor member? The WISPA Vendor Members text in the left column should be a link to either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership. Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up =$5k for advertising space on wispa.org http://wispa.org? Are these the only Vendor Members? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only call them with Prizm/BAM problems. I really don't know that they have a Patrick but the area rep is helpful. He has always gotten me to the right person. Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047 Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon) Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola that is really good with WISPs. Someone who I can call and talk to as a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the hold music for an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their Patrick Leary. :)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their Patrick. After we know that we can talk to him about joining. Brian Dylan Oliver wrote: On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. How has Motorola been approached? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)
Dylan Oliver wrote: Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by becoming a vendor member? The WISPA Vendor Members text in the left column should be a link to either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership. Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up =$5k for advertising space on wispa.org http://wispa.org? Are these the only Vendor Members? I know these three are Vendor Members. I dunno what was ponied up. Brian -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or Canopy). Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from http://www.wirelessbehive.com Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy? This is where GPS sync comes in. You can point two different tower locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not interfere with each other. This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels. Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment. Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference. Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link. Anthony Will Broadband Corp Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY. We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of the face of the earth. We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna) with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync. If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of light issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I recommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways. It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any future pain before we experience it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
You can have the cake and eat it too!! Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not sustained, only burstable. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:51 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can someone share that info with me again, please? :) Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Sync Pipe from Forrest. I have three of them that just came in today. www.packetflux.com Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can someone share that info with me again, please? :) Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
www.packetflux.com Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can someone share that info with me again, please? :) Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's. With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM. To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb Aggregate. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Another quick question... If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)? Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6 mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say that town is pretty well smoked. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able to purchase in 25 packs they l
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
part-15.org but I seem to remember that they removed access to the archives unless you are a member. bullit might have changed that since. Anthony Travis Johnson wrote: Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6 mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say that town is pretty well smoked. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
? With Trango, I use a different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy? This is where GPS sync comes in. You can point two different tower locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not interfere with each other. This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels. Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment. Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference. Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link. Anthony Will Broadband Corp Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY. We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of the face of the earth. We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna) with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync. If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of light issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I recommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways. It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any future pain before we experience it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6 mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say that town is pretty well smoked. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded. So that the information is available a 25 pack of the Classic 2.4 ghz Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that is about
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
We have never saw a problem with 2.4 self interfering. Only 900Mhz, and that is easily fixed. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself.. Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded. So that the information is available a 25 pack of the Classic 2.4 ghz Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that is about $269ea + $50 for reflector for a total of $319ea. http://www.doubleradius.com It is possible to get them cheaper then this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or Canopy). Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from http://www.wirelessbehive.com Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy? This is where GPS sync comes in. You can point two different tower locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not interfere with each other. This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels. Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment. Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference. Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link. Anthony Will Broadband Corp Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY. We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of the face of the earth. We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna) with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync. If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of light issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I recommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways. It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Jon, For sure I'm all over GPS for all licensed (world of small channels) and when there is a small amount of spectrum to work with in UL. For example, in the coming 3650MHz band, GPS should be a must for PMP. Same with scaled 900 (we offer it there). It is just not needed with VL. What for? It already gives massive capacity without any re-use. Even with GPS and re-use I do not think Canopy can get close to the amount of capacity VL can offer. Frankly, even if we had it for VL no one would buy it. No argument from me on the scheduled MAC front, except to the extent that in UL it needs to come with good interference mitigation (not talking about self-inflicted interference) techniques to make it useful. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy, wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: Jon, Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Patrick, ditto on the 3650 band. However the reality is that self and external interference in the UL world is all too common. You say UL bands or at least VL doesn't need GPS capability because of so much capacity. If you want I can get you a list of wifi/trango/etc.-to-Canopy 'converts' that will tell you otherwise. Licensed carriers use GPS to greatly diminish what we experience as common day interference problems. IMO I can't blame the FCC for not giving more spectrum than they have as we've already trashed what we've been given. Lastly, what Moto did was brought GPS sync to the UL world however as standard option and in very economical form factor, not expensive chassis and such. If you haven't already, get your VL guys with your WIMAX guys and you could have a clear winner down the road! :) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Quoting Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jon, For sure I'm all over GPS for all licensed (world of small channels) and when there is a small amount of spectrum to work with in UL. For example, in the coming 3650MHz band, GPS should be a must for PMP. Same with scaled 900 (we offer it there). It is just not needed with VL. What for? It already gives massive capacity without any re-use. Even with GPS and re-use I do not think Canopy can get close to the amount of capacity VL can offer. Frankly, even if we had it for VL no one would buy it. No argument from me on the scheduled MAC front, except to the extent that in UL it needs to come with good interference mitigation (not talking about self-inflicted interference) techniques to make it useful. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy, wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: Jon, Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
channel planning. hah! as if everyone worked nicely together. I rather like Canopy with its GPS. It makes it a competition killer. :) And yes, even Alvarion EQ can't handle it... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Jon, Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs My problem with VL is that it doesn't offer a scheduled mac...no syncronization capability. Now if this get's incorporated down the line I would be interested? We've used it all, you name it, and at this point if it doesn't have GPS sync I'm hesitant to even touch it. That is one advantage that WIMAX will be bringing... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: I have a very interesting new (this month) pdf about this topic that compares Canopy Advantage and BreezeACCESS VL in a variety of ways, from a coverage modeling example using high end propagation software to VoIP stats using company documents from both companies. We think it makes a clear case for BreezeACCESS VL, far beyond the simple front end cost discussions. It is 189k in size and would be great fodder for discussion here. If you want a copy, e-mail me offlist. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Patrick Leary wrote: Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. This thread is really turning into a mess. The above statement is simply wrong. We operate a number of Canopy base stations without GPS. In fact, for all the Canopy radios we own we only have two CMMs. Mostly because the CMM doesn't fit in well with our network. Regardless, Canopy does not need GPS to function. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. If I am wrong, I am happy to eat crow. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. This thread is really turning into a mess. The above statement is simply wrong. We operate a number of Canopy base stations without GPS. In fact, for all the Canopy radios we own we only have two CMMs. Mostly because the CMM doesn't fit in well with our network. Regardless, Canopy does not need GPS to function. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
For sure I am no expert there. Plenty of skilled Canopy users here and I believe to a WISP here each one that is scaled uses the GPS sync. I leave it to them to chime in. Some already have, like Jon L., Rick S., Gino, Mike B. I just know we get no requests for it from VL users an there would be little benefit. The system simply does not require it. I mean, we only need 3 sectors of 20MHz to net out over 90mbps of capacity. And then there is the 10MHz channel options. So there are plenty of channels to work with. Also, our system uses an intelligent ATPC and cell distance learning so the gear isn't driving power beyond what it needs to sustain links at whatever mod level the operator selects. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any future pain before we experience it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
C'mon Patrick .. GPS is not a must on Canopy, I have half of my pops without it ... I don't really like when people make statements like this, you sound like you have years of hands on Canopy experience... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Jon, Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs My problem with VL is that it doesn't offer a scheduled mac...no syncronization capability. Now if this get's incorporated down the line I would be interested? We've used it all, you name it, and at this point if it doesn't have GPS sync I'm hesitant to even touch it. That is one advantage that WIMAX will be bringing... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: I have a very interesting new (this month) pdf about this topic that compares Canopy Advantage and BreezeACCESS VL in a variety of ways, from a coverage modeling example using high end propagation software to VoIP stats using company documents from both companies. We think it makes a clear case for BreezeACCESS VL, far beyond the simple front end cost discussions. It is 189k in size and would be great fodder for discussion here. If you want a copy, e-mail me offlist. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY. We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of the face of the earth. We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna) with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync. If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of light issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I recommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways. It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any future pain before we experience it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded. So that the information is available a 25 pack of the Classic 2.4 ghz Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that is about $269ea + $50 for reflector for a total of $319ea. http://www.doubleradius.com It is possible to get them cheaper then this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or Canopy). Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from http://www.wirelessbehive.com Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy? This is where GPS sync comes in. You can point two different tower locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not interfere with each other. This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels. Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment. Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference. Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link. Anthony Will Broadband Corp Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY. We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of the face of the earth. We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna) with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync. If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of light issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I recommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways. It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote: I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network of any scale that did not require GPS. I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy, wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: Jon, Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself. It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues with self-interference. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
