[WSG] image substitution

[Lucien Stals]

The designers have specified a font I must use to write a sites name in the top 
banner. It is not a standard font, and I don't think it's licensed for 
redistribution anyway.

I think my only option is to generate an image for the banner using the right 
font (or is there a better option?). 
What is the current best practice for having an accessible text banner, while 
showing the image based banner?

Are we still using the trick of shifting the text off the side of the screen 
with negative positioning? Or is there a better, more accessible way?

Thanks.

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Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?

[Lucien Stals]

And I seem to recall that the old radios on which the metaphor is based could 
be pushed half in. That would cause all buttons to pop out thus having *no* 
selection. Not saying that as a justification for having no selection in a 
radio group. Just pointing out that the metaphor wears a bit thin ;)

Lucien.


On 08/06/2010, at 11:38 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote:

> 
> 
> On 7 June 2010 14:58, Steve Gibbings  wrote:
> I have a problem with that.   Radio button sets should always have an option 
> selected, there is no undefined selection.  This makes sense when you 
> remember where the radio button metaphor came from. However seems that 
> doesn't get universally implemented.
> 
> Technically correct, true. Would you recommend a checkbox instead, or some 
> other option?
> 
> In practice I think the usage of radio buttons has shifted to accommodate 
> sets with no initial selection. In usability terms it's probably better than 
> a dropdown for a yes/no; and some people do have some issues with the implied 
> off state of checkboxes. Compare it with a paper form where you have two 
> boxes and you tick or cross an option - there's no preselection. I guess it 
> depends which paradigm is more likely to fit the scenario.
> 
> cheers,
> Ben
> 
> 
> -- 
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not 
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> 
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Re: [WSG] IE7 overflow

[Lucien Stals]

Bingo!

> "word-wrap: break-word"

did the trick.

Thanks for that.

L.


On 11/02/2010, at 2:49 PM, Micky Hulse wrote:

> Hi,
> 
>> Any suggestions?
> 
> Maybe:
> 
> "word-wrap: break-word" or "overflow: hidden"
> 
> See:
> 
> 
> 
> Hths?
> 
> Micky
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] IE7 overflow

[Lucien Stals]

Sorry, can't do that. The project isn't live yet, and I'd get in trouble :(
I know that makes it harder to get help with.


On 11/02/2010, at 3:05 PM, David Laakso wrote:

> Lucien Stals wrote:
>> Hi everyone.
>> 
>> I have a paragraph with a width set on it (500px). The text inside the p 
>> includes one very long URL. IE7 and Safari (both mac a win) are wrapping the 
>> URL in the wrong place and part of it extends out beyond the edge of the p. 
>> Curiously IE6 displays correctly, as do FF3.6 and Opera.
>> 
>> Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> Put it on a public server and provide a clickable link to it in your post.
> 
> 
> Best,
> ~d
> 
> 
> -- 
> desktop
> http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
> mobile
> http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/
> 
> 
> 
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[WSG] IE7 overflow

[Lucien Stals]

Hi everyone.

I have a paragraph with a width set on it (500px). The text inside the p 
includes one very long URL. IE7 and Safari (both mac a win) are wrapping the 
URL in the wrong place and part of it extends out beyond the edge of the p. 
Curiously IE6 displays correctly, as do FF3.6 and Opera.

Any suggestions?

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Re: [WSG] Using CSS to select a tag having an ID attribute: page served as application/xhtml+xml

[Lucien Stals]

I don't kow the answer to this question but I just wanted to clarify that XML 
*does not* require "lowercase only".
XML *is* case sensitive so that in XML  would not be valid, but  
and  are.

On 18/12/2009, at 7:07 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

> 
> It might be that xml requires lowercase only and that the problem is the
> "H" in the id "div_Heading".
> 
> 
> On Thu, December 17, 2009 8:41 am, Grant Bailey wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I've recently started serving my web pages as xml pages using the MIME
>> type application/xhtml+xml rather than text/css as previously. This
>> works fine as my pages were already xhtml compliant, with one exception:
>> my external CSS stylesheets are no longer honoured by any browser to the
>> extent that they select ID attributes.
>> 
>> For example:
>> 
>> [XHTML]
>> 
>>  Survival: the basics
>> 
>> 
>> [CSS]
>> #div_Heading {
>> border: thin black solid;
>> }
>> 
>> If I serve my page as text/css the border appears as expected but when
>> the page is served as application/xhtml+xml, no border is visible. There
>> is only one ID named div_Heading in the document and the document itself
>> validates.
>> 
>> Could someone please advise me what might be going wrong as I have been
>> unable to find anything of assistance on the web or in the WSG forums.
>> 
>> Many thanks and regards,
>> 
>> Grant Bailey
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [WSG] vCard File

[Lucien Stals]

Oh, you so just put a huge smile on my face :D

Thanks for the technorati link. I was unaware of this, and it makes all
the work I did on microformats on my  staff listing page worth it.
(http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ads/about/staff.htm)

Thanks.

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 2/08/2007 at 1:30 pm, "Brad Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> vCard's (.vcf files) will also open in a Mac OS X Address book.
> Not everyone will have a VCF compatible address book and hence an
attempt 
> should be made to educate/explain their use.
> 
> You should mark up the displayed address information as an hCard: 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard 
> ... and then use the technorati vcard generator 
> http://technorati.com/contact to scrape the page and produce your
vcard for 
> you
> 
> Can someone please suggest a cool icon for vCard downloads? It must
be 2.0 
> of course :-)
> 
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Joyce Evans 
>   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
>   Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:51 PM
>   Subject: [WSG] vCard File
> 
> 
>   I think there may have been a discussion regarding the vCard File 
> recently, and if there was, I didn't study those emails because I
didn't have 
> to deal with it at the time.  Today, however, I got a new project of

> re-creating a website with the current design.  On this client's
contact 
> page, there is a link to the .vcf file, which when I click on it, the

> client's contact information appears in the Contacts section of my
Outlook 
> program.  I've never seen a link to a vCard File on a website until
today.  
> Is it okay to have this link?  What happens if the visitor to the
website 
> does not use Outlook?  Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
>   Joyce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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Re: [WSG] Shadow validation

[Lucien Stals]

Regardless of whether it's valid or not, hardly any mainstream browsers
currently support text shadows. (Does Firefox? I can only think of
Safari 3, only available as the WebKit until Leopard gets released).

So even once you have it validating, practically nobody will be able to
appreciated your fine work :(

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 10/07/2007 at 1:20 pm, Dean Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Jul 9, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
> 
>> Not really, just chose the appropriate options (advanced...) when  
>> you try to validate a file.
> 
> Yes I see, but how do you link a "Valid CSS" icon to an advanced
search?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dean
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Who's A "Front End" Developer?

[Lucien Stals]

That's interesting.

I wonder how many of us are in a similar position?

In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1
graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web
stuff, our manager and myself).

I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new
stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff
and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT
department.

I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server
(win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves
maintaining the server itself as well as  maintenance of applications on
the server and some development in php/mysql.

What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, "Lucien Stals" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> 
>> I think I missed something in the original question. The "front
end"
>> part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as "back
end"
>> and that got me wondering.
>> 
>> When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
>> what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to
visual
>> design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front
end
>> design)
>> 
>> Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an
easy
>> way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.
>> 
>> I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges
the
>> "grey area" around development. And I'd say that once you touch the
db,
>> you are definitely back end, not front end.
>> 
>> In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers
in
>> terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
>> developers?
>> 
>> Lucien.
> 
> I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be
able to
> do it all -  from configuring the server to developing the databases
to
> designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the
HTML/CSS
> to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do
indeed
> exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is
not core
> business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and
> technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to
find
> out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your
> problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For
the
> record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my
school
> defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share
of IT
> support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!)
> 
> Kevin 


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Re: [WSG] Who's A "Front End" Developer?

[Lucien Stals]

I think I missed something in the original question. The "front end"
part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as "back end"
and that got me wondering.

When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual
design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end
design)

Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy
way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.

I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the
"grey area" around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db,
you are definitely back end, not front end.

In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in
terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
developers?

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at 10:57 PM, "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion. I find I cannot/don't want to call
myself 
> a web designer, and have been using the term developer because of the
fact I 
> am more into and better at php, mysql, xml and the cms aspect than
design.
> 
> Designer-  appearance, structure including web standards layout.
> Developer-  the mechanics of the site, publishing it (cms),
programming up to 
> a poficiency level (grey area), and development of xml, php,
databases etc..
> Programmer -  works with a major programming language at a very high

> proficiency level and can program from scratch.
> 
> I consider web standards and the cms the foundation that all three
build 
> upon.
> 
> Bruce P
> bkdesign
> 
>   -  Original Message -  
>   From: John Horner 
>   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:55 AM
>   Subject: [WSG] Who's A "Front End" Developer?
> 
> 
>   I'm interested in the "front end" part of the Dutch group's name.
> 
>   We were having a discussion at work the other day about which
skills you 
> should have to have in order to call yourself a "web developer".
> 
>   I just finished a project which required knowledge of the
following:
> 
>   * HTML
>   * CSS
>   * Javascript
>   * XML
>   * Perl or PHP
>   * SQL
> 
>   but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have
to call 
> themselves a web developer?
> 
>   You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop

> (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really
a 
> programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
> 
>   However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do
we 
> call someone with all the skills above?
> 
>  
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Re: [WSG] Who's A "Front End" Developer?

[Lucien Stals]

It's an interesting question. 

I don't like titles, but when I got my business cards printed up for my
current job, I had them call me a "web developer" because I have the
skills you listed. (And since AJAX requires knowledge of Javascript and
XML, or some other transport format, then I'd say it falls into the
"developer" category.)

I specifically don't call myself a web designer because my design
skills are far short of what I would expect from a designer. (And I'm
talking about "designer" strictly in the context of visual/graphic
design.) I know my way around Fireworks, and I've even got a degree in
fine arts (sculpture) under my belt. But I've worked with designers, and
I know I'm not one. 

Obviously many people in the web field wear different hats, and most of
us don't comfortably fit into a clean and clear definition of designer
or developer. I've done enough jobs where I did all the design work as
well. They would have been better, and more expensive, if there had been
a proper designer involved.

But I know, and like, the code cutting side of the web. So I call
myself a developer.

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at  4:55 PM, "John Horner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm interested in the "front end" part of the Dutch group's name.
>  
> We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills
you
> should have to have in order to call yourself a "web developer".
>  
> I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:
>  
> * HTML
> * CSS
> * Javascript
> * XML
> * Perl or PHP
> * SQL
>  
> but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to
> call themselves a web developer?
>  
> You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
> (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really
a
> programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
>  
> However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do
we
> call someone with all the skills above?
>  
> 
>

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Re: [WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

[Lucien Stals]

I just started doing a Cert IV in Assessment and Training so that I'd be a 
qualified trainer (not necessarily for the web), and I was surprised to find 
out that the training packages for  qualifications are normally only reviewed 
every 5 years. In many industries that would be okay. But on the web?

I was also surprised to find some training packages for IT related certificates 
(here in Australia ) which included a unit on writing a web documents which 
claimed DHTML was a valid markup language.

The unit "(ICAB4135A) Create a simple mark up language document to 
specification" says...
"Mark-up language  May include but are not limited to HTML, DHTML, XHTML, SGML, 
VRML, XML. "

That unit is part of a Cert IV in IT (Websites). 

Lucien.



Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2007 at  3:53 PM, "Matthew Pennell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 
> On 03/07/07, Sander Aarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>  Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a Dutch
>> guild of Front- end Developers:
>> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html (only
>> in Dutch for now).
>>
>> The general idea is to professionalize front- end development, emphesize
>> the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to set up a
>> certification system by which customers can easily distinguish between
>> modern developers, using web standards, and old skool table hackers.
>>
> 
> Interesting. Whenever the subject has arisen before, it's usually been felt
> that because the pace of change is so rapid in web development,
> certification is practically useless -  you might have qualified for a
> certificate a year ago, but that's no guarantee that you're still using the
> most up- to- date techniques.

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Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

[Lucien Stals]

I haven't had any trouble with it either.

Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "Sagnik Dey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 13/06/07 12:59 AM >>>
The Safari on Win XP is running smoothly on my machine

-Sagnik

On 6/12/07, Frederick Matzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Doesn't work for me either and it gets stuck using 50% of CPU.
>
> Back to Firefox...
>
> Frederick
>
> On 6/12/07, Tony Crockford < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > James Leslie wrote:
> > > Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime
> > installed (previously, not as part of the safari install) and am
having no
> > problems at all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the
bug
> > button brings up a bug reporting page for me directly.
> > >
> >
> > Me too, worked first time...
> >
> >
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-- 
:: Sagnik ::


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Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

[Lucien Stals]

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 12/06/2007 at 12:21 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> iPhone might be a different thing altogether ..
>  just because a page renders nicely in Safari on a desktop machine
doesn't 
> necessarely mean it is going to be very usable on a tiny screen!
> (I haven't yet seen an iPhone but I assume the screen would be small
like a 
> mobile phone screen...?)

I think the price alone will keep uptake slow and low.

> 
> Speaking of Mac browsers -
> a friend called me on the weekend and said he can't find anything
newer than 
> 
> IE5 for OS9 but won't upgrade to OSX because it would be way too slow
on his 
> 
> G3. (and he doesn't have the money to buy a new machine)
> now that is something to think about! 
> 

MS no longer support IE for Mac. Even the MS web site recommend people
switch to safari (for Mac). I wonder what they will say now a Win
version is available.

You friend is caught in a marketing trap :(

> 
> 
> 
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[WSG] Print style sheets

[Lucien Stals]

Hi all,

I'd written a print style sheet for a site I'd done  (
http://www.swin.edu.au/ads/ltshowcase/inspire/presentations.html  ),
but the feedback I got was that nobody knew it was there (unless they
printed the page).

So I hit google for some suggestions on how best to do this. This has
lead to more confusion.

One site I read suggested that print style sheets can confuse users
when what comes out of the printer differs significantly from what they
saw on the page. This is true in my case where I hide the navigation and
some background images. I also change the font and justification to
better suit print.

So do people here think it's a good idea to have a print style sheet
that differs from the screen style sheet? 

In the end, I used some javascript to allow users to switch between two
style sheets on the screen. One is designed for the screen, the other
designed for print. This way, if they print the page, they get what they
see.

What do people think about this approach. (If you are unclear from my
description about how this works, just visit the page and toggle the
"print friendly view" link near the top of the page).

My approach has caused me a further problem:

Because I used a link to trigger the script, clicks get added to the
browsers history, when technically the user hasn't left the page. Any
suggestions for how to get around this? Should I have used a select
list?

Regards,

Lucien.
 
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


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Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

"Groupwise" is a Novel client (and server) for email and appointments
etc. Think MS Outlook, by Novel. It's the proprietary email client and
address book and calendar app we are obliged to use at work. It even
comes with it's own chat client that doesn't talk to any other chat
protocols.

Being a closed source app, I'm having trouble looking for how to get it
to read microformat data, but perhaps I'm looking at the problem the
wrong way around. I will, as you suggest, look at getting operator to
push the data into groupwise :)

It would be a shame if I can't get it to work after having gone to the
trouble of adding microformat event and vCard data to our departmental
calendar and staff contact pages, respectively.

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 7/06/2007 at 2:57 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Maybe I used a poor example.
>>
>> Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just
wish
>> there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
>> microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)
>>
> 
> I have no idea what "groupwise" is but could a user script could be
created 
> for the Operator Firefox plugin to add the data?
> The latest version of it allows you to add your own scripts
(javascript) to 
> do things with the data it finds.
> 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106 
> 
> There is also some talk about including future native support for 
> microformats in Firefox 3
>
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla_does_microformats_firefox3.php

>
http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-

> of-microformat-detection
> 
> Microsoft's "Live Clipboard" also uses microformats
> http://rayozzie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

Maybe I used a poor example.

Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just wish
there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add
microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :)

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 6/06/2007 at 1:47 pm, "Michael MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  I too would love to see the results of this experiment.
>>
>> Any takers?
>>
>> I suspect that the following code...
>>
>> staff details
>> 
>> email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> phone12345678
>> 
>> 
> 
> perhaps ... but for the purpose of marking up contact details in a 
> meaningful way why not use hCard?
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard 
> 
> ...there are lots of other people already using hCard out there and
there is 
> 
> software that can use it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 6/06/2007 at 1:25 pm, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Lucien Stals wrote:
> 
>> I suspect that the following code...
>>
>> staff details
>> 
>> email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> phone12345678
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would
render
>> just fine.
> 
> Logical, no doubt of it. But see Steve Green's post which said, "JAWS

> ... can only enter 'forms mode' when a form control has focus."
> 
> Does that mean that JAWS won't read the contents of the  
> element because it's not in 'forms mode'? And if not, how important
is 
> it for clarification of what follows that the legend be read? If the

> answer to that is 'not', or 'optional', there's not much point in 
> including it - is there?
>

Hmm. It's an interesting point. I'd still be curious to find out what
does in fact happen. But if that's correct, then using the fieldset this
way has no practical  benefit for people using assistive devices. In
which case we might be doing nothing more than drawing a pretty box
around some text, which is a presentational issue best done with CSS
anyway.

I think it could still be of semantic use to sighted users.

Lucien.

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[WSG] What does Semantic mean?

[Lucien Stals]

Hi Ben and others,

Here is my own bit of pedanticness...
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 6/06/2007 at 11:27 am, "Ben Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Sure a DIV
>> would work. But a DIV is void of semantic. It's the refuge of the
>> unimaginative who want to wrap everything in excess tags with no
>> semantic meaning just to hang CSS off. To me, a fieldset is
obviously
>> the correct semantic here.
> 
> Well it has already been pointed out that DIV does have semantic
> significance - it adds structure by containing parts of the page.
It's
> just used so heavily that we tend to forget it has a real, live
> meaning :) The only major difference between DIV and FIELDSET the
way
> you propose is that FIELDSET renders a box by default.


A DIV (and a SPAN for that matter) are purely structural, not semantic.
The only difference between a div and a span is that one is a block
level element, and the other is an inline element. Apart from that, they
have the same semantic meaning, which is none at all.

The specs say:

"The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.
These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV)
but impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors
may use these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang
attribute, etc., to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes."

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4 

And I quote that in it's entirety in case anyone else decides to
suggest I'm trying to twist things to mean anything other than what they
mean.

The issue here is about the meaning of the word "semantic". Semantics
refer to the *meaning* attached to something. What is the meaning of a
div? It's *use* is structural, but it's *meaning* is ... well, it
doesn't have a meaning. Only by attaching meaning via a class or id does
a div or span acquire meaning. 

If I code some text here, then I have an anonymous,
meaningless block of text. If I changed the div to be a p, then it
suddenly acquires a bit more meaning. It's a paragraph. A dictionary can
explain what a paragraph means.

If I add a class such that the code becomes  A key point that doesn't seem to have come up is that in the real
> world screen readers make use of fieldsets in a way which assumes
> they're in a form. The legend can be vocalised together with labels
to
> provide full context.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have a screen reader handy to test what it
does
> with a fieldset that's not in a form; but I would be concerned that
it
> could get really confusing for form elements to crop up in the
middle
> of general content.
> 
> I won't speculate any further, but if anyone has a screen reader
> handy, perhaps they could shed some light on this?
> 


I too would love to see the results of this experiment. 

Any takers?

I suspect that the following code...

staff details

email[EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone12345678



Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render
just fine. 

But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest
placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure
where you got that one from.

Regards,

Lucien.

PS: I'm planning on attending tomorrow nights WSG meeting in Melbourne.
Can anyone advise me if I should bring a flame proof suit and a fire
extinguisher with me?



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Re: [WSG] reading the spec [WAS: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?]

[Lucien Stals]

I know I said I didn't want to post to this again, but some points have
been raised which I just can't help responding to.

I am an advocate of standards. But the standards shouldn't be the first
place we run whenever the way gets unclear. It's been said in this
thread already that there are an awful lot of grey areas in the specs,
and an awful lot of developers and designers out there trying to do just
about everything imaginable with HTML, much of which is done with
absolutely no regard for the specs, accessibility, or usability (and I
get crucified here for merely wandering into one of the grey areas?). It
should also be of no surprise that the original specs, when written,
couldn't possibly predict the varied uses that HTML is now being
shoehorned into.

This is exactly why there is so much effort currently going on to come
up with a new spec that will cope with the evolving nature and use of
HTML. The shortcomings of HTML are self evident. Why else are we here
trying to redesign it?

So my question is: Is this group, as part of the Web Standards Group,
about being visionaries and looking for ways to advance the use of HTML
(and drag the specs along behind if necessary)? Or are we a bunch of
conservative fundamentalists who believe the current specs are gospel
and the anyone who doesn't *believe* should be cudgeled to death with
them?

To put it another way: Are we advocates for HTML, or for the
specifications?

And no, I'm not calling myself a visionary. But I'm inviting everyone
here to be one, and not get stuck in the minutia of the specs, as if
that all that matters.

Lucien.

Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Blake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/06/07 6:52 PM >>>
On 6/5/07, Paul Novitski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps our debates would be kinder if we ruminated longer on our
> shared plight: abandoned on a barren planet with only fifty kinds of
> parts with which to build everything we need.

Well said. In all a very insightful post. I agree, generally we're all
trying to do our best with what we have.

However, some of us are pedantic about using the most appropriate
element possible while others are happy to use something that makes
sense in their styling context. I think some of us (myself included)
lose touch a little when we see someone do something differently to
how we would, and start getting all high and mighty.

In a way, it's so easy to do, because we are passionate about what we
do. I think that's why we clash horns so often, because we do care.
But so many developers don't care at all, so I think we should
remember that we're generally on the same side on this list.

Regards,
Blake

-- 
Australian Web Designer - http://www.blakehaswell.com/


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RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Lucien Stals]

Whoops.

Must have caught the cranky people on a bad day ;)

I in fact did quote the entire sentence. The ellipsis at the end
indicates there is more, but the "more" in this case was the rest of the
paragraph, not the rest of the sentence. For clarity, I didn't ignore
any part of the sentence, and it was in no way my intention to
misdirect. I'm not even quite sure how that suggestion came about. If
you're interested, the whole paragraph is...

"The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related
controls and labels. Grouping controls makes it easier for users to
understand their purpose while simultaneously facilitating tabbing
navigation for visual user agents and speech navigation for
speech-oriented user agents. The proper use of this element makes
documents more accessible."

For a comparison, the w3schools site defines fieldset as "The fieldset
element draws a box around its containing elements." And that's the
complete sentence. Note no mention of form controls.

I leave it to others to debate the authority of the w3schools site, and
it's a debate worth having.

I realise that many of the people here take pleasure in the pedantic
application of standards, and I'll state for the record that I agree
with the concept of the semantic web. But I am a pragmatic coder and if
I wish to group thematically related elements (*not* necessarily form
controls), then I'm free to use the fieldset if I wish to. Sure a DIV
would work. But a DIV is void of semantic. It's the refuge of the
unimaginative who want to wrap everything in excess tags with no
semantic meaning just to hang CSS off. To me, a fieldset is obviously
the correct semantic here.

Would I use it simply to have the browser draw a box around something?
No. That's a presentational issue best dealt with by applying CSS to the
relevant container.

But the original question wasn't about drawing a box. It was  about how
to group any sort of related information together. And I say a fieldset
would work. It's not the only solution, but it's a valid one. And not
just valid by the DTD. I think it's semantically valid as well.


BTW, I've said my piece, and I'll be quiet now. This mailing list has
become the domain of too many snippy little flame wars of late. I don't
know what's been getting up everyone's backsides, but I think I'll go
lurk somewhere else for a while.

Lucien.

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 5/06/2007 at 12:22 pm, "Steve Green"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I totally disagree with Lucien. It's nonsensical to suggest you can
just
> ignore parts of a sentence that you find inconvenient. The definition
is
> totally unambiguous - it states "group thematically related controls
and
> labels", not "group thematically related content such as controls
and
> labels".
> 
> I say don't even think about it.
> 
> Day after day in this forum some people seem to be hell-bent on
abusing the
> standards like this? Why? It's not big, it's not clever and it's not
> necessary.
> 
> Steve
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lucien Stals
> Sent: 05 June 2007 02:42
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
> Subject: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
> 
> The HTML 4 specs say...
> 
> "The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related
controls
> and labels..."
> 
> While "controls and labels"  refer to form controls, the fieldset
itself can
> contain anything. My opinion would be that the important part of the
use of
> fieldset is "group thematically related" content.
> 
> I say go for it!
> 
> Lucien.

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[WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Lucien Stals]

The HTML 4 specs say...

"The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related
controls and labels..."

While "controls and labels"  refer to form controls, the fieldset
itself can contain anything. My opinion would be that the important part
of the use of fieldset is "group thematically related" content.

I say go for it!

Lucien.
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 5/06/2007 at 11:19 am, "Jackie Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Quick question for you lot.
> 
> Can fieldsets only to be used in forms or can they be used to group
any sort 
> of related information together (ie: business name, short
description, logo 
> and link).
> 
> thanks
> 
> Jackie
> 
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Re: [WSG] safari hack for overflow-x/y

[Lucien Stals]

I don't know much about Safari hacks, but don't forget that a new
version of Safari will be coming out soon (August?) when Leopard (OS X
10.5) gets released.

Check out the nightly build of web kit for a sneak peek at the new
render engine and see if your hacks will work in it.

http://webkit.org/

Lucien.

Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> kevin mcmonagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 31/05/07 6:49 AM >>>
Hi,
Im building a design that hinges on support for support overflow-y/x.

Are there any safari hacks that validate and will be somewhat permanent?
I google'd safari hacks but a lot of the ones i found dont work anymore.
This one  still works but doesn't validate.

/* Be nasty to Safari */
@media all {
@import url(cream.css);
/* rules */
}
/* End be nasty to Safari */

-thanks 
kevin

| |



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Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software

[Lucien Stals]

I *want* to like Drupal. I really do. 

When it's working, it's a beautiful thing. But I've recently had a lot
of trouble installing the recent version. So much trouble that I gave up
on it :(

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Raine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 24/05/07 3:30 PM >>>
I love WordPress.

I recently tried to install Drupal but didn't have LOCK table 
permissions on my server that is required for installation.

ByteDreams wrote:
> http://www.drupal.org
>
> Can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be.
>
>   



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Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software

[Lucien Stals]

Sounds like you need Wordpress.

http://wordpress.org/

>From what you describe, it can do all that. It's also highly themeable
if you need a specific custom look and feel.

L.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "Lisa B McLaughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 24/05/07 8:41 AM >>>
Calling all blog wizards!

I need a stand alone blogging software that I can insert into a client's
website so they keep their branding and can update their own blogs. 
I've
looked around to no avail.  Any suggestions for where to look, how to
look,
or anything you use that fits the bill?

Requirements are images, postings, replies to the original posting plus
ability to respond to individual posts.  The site is a UK charitable
organization that needs the posts to be monitored,anonymous, and secure.

The real trick here is being able to pull this off without fancy
programming
skills.  I am willing to host wherever is necessary instead of hosting
on my
regular servers.

TIA,
Lisa  

Lisa B. McLaughlin, NCW
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 T:  +44 (0)  1943 468624
M:  +44 (0) 7835 947606
AllSpunUp
Websites that work for you.
 





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RE: [WSG] css type loop

[Lucien Stals]

Good point.

Thanks.

L.

Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 22/05/07 11:46 AM >>>
> But at the end of the day, this will only piss of the people on this
> mailing list, and the next developer to work on your web site. The
> users
> will still see a nice bold heading. The semantics are meanlingless to
> them.

Actually with your example, I believe there are more users who would be
bothered; screen-reader users for example who can navigate (cycle)
through
headings. 
One can style a P element to look like a heading as much as he wants,
but it
still won't become a proper "hook" for some UAs.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com





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Re: [WSG] css type loop

[Lucien Stals]

Thanks for that :)

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 22/05/07 9:24 AM >>>
Tell that to this search engine:
http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/

On 21/05/2007, at 9:31 PM, Rob Kirton wrote:

> More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value  
> to developers or to those who have to maintain the site.  They have  
> no bearing on "real world" semantics in terms of benefit derived by  
> end users and page retrieval via search engines.  To that end they  
> are semantically neutral
>
> -- 
> Regards
>
> - Rob
>
> Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk
> Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton
>
> On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul  
> Novitski wrote:
> > Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose  
> semantic
> > value when ids & classes are added?  I think of ids & classes as  
> being
> > semantically neutral or inert.
> When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and
> classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For
> example, id="nav-main", id="footer", class="price" all add value.
> However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce
> there is an implied value which is imparted because "this element has
> one and that element doesn't." With class="bullet1", class="bullet2",
> class="bullet3", etc., their value is somewhat diluted.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] css type loop

[Lucien Stals]

You could use the same argument to say that all markup in sematicly
neutral. That the B tag and STRONG tags have the same semantic weight
since end users, the consumers of the web, nerevr look at the markup and
are largely uninterested in how the content gets to be that way it is.

We could easily lose our way and wander into the land of pedantic
semiotic debate. And I'm not saying that couldn't be fun, although I
never did well at semiotics when I studied them as an undergrad :(.  As
developers, we are the *only* ones that the semantic web benefits (until
microformats take off, and there is some kind of client support, but
there is problems in that too.). The humble P tag is semantic in it's
own right. It dentoes relativley clearly that a block of text is a
paragraph. By adding a class or id to that P tag I *add* to it's
semantic meaning by clarifying that it is a certain kind of paragraph. A
specialist subset of the normal generic semantic, if you like.

What is *not* semantic, is if I use a P tag, give it a class called "Q"
and style it font-weight:bold and use it as a heading.

The class name "Q" is meaningless (no semantic value). 
By styling the P bold and making it a heading, you are subverting the
existing semantic by not using a H tag instead.

But at the end of the day, this will only piss of the people on this
mailing list, and the next developer to work on your web site. The users
will still see a nice bold heading. The semantics are meanlingless to
them.

I'd love it if there was enough client support that semantics mattered
to more then just those of who care about the aestetics of the code. But
such support is just not wide spread enough. 

I spent a lot of time marking up our staff listing page with
microformant stuff and I'm proud of what I did. But I know that apart
from myself, and one or two other people who grock this stuff, this work
isn't going to be appreciated in any meaningful way for years to come.
Plugins like Tails and Operator are fantastic, but so far as I can see,
only of use to those of us goofing around with this stuff.

Lucien.

Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> "Rob Kirton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 21/05/07 9:31 PM >>>
More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value to
developers or to those who have to maintain the site.  They have no
bearing
on "real world" semantics in terms of benefit derived by end users and
page
retrieval via search engines.  To that end they are semantically neutral

-- 
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton

On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Paul Novitski wrote:
> > Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose
semantic
> > value when ids & classes are added?  I think of ids & classes as
being
> > semantically neutral or inert.
> When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and
> classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For
> example, id="nav-main", id="footer", class="price" all add value.
> However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce
> there is an implied value which is imparted because "this element has
> one and that element doesn't." With class="bullet1", class="bullet2",
> class="bullet3", etc., their value is somewhat diluted.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] css type loop

[Lucien Stals]

Why aren't you just dealing with this server side and generating the
desired classes and tags there? CSS needn't be show horned into doing
this kind of work.

If it were only client side code, just hand craft it and your done. If
the list is dynamic, then you have a server and it should be generating
the id's for you.

Lucien.

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 18/05/2007 at 4:33 pm, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
>> Quoting Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>> I recently had to add numerical bullet point graphics to an OL. 
>>
>> Unfortunately there's nothing you can do at this point.
>>
>> CSS 3's nth-child pseudo selector 
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#nth-child-pseudo would help,
but 
>> current browser support is negligible or non-existent, if memory 
>> serves me right.
> Nth-child would save on adding all those extra classes, but not the
CSS. 
> Also, as you point out, support isn't great. There is some support, 
> though, namely Konqueror. However, the news isn't all bad.
> 
> The good news is there's a method supported by around 50% of the
market, 
> including IE7: direct adjacent ("+"). Regarding IE6, fortunately its

> days are numbered and should be gone in no time (at least in
geological 
> terms). To get IE6 to play along, you'll need to use JavaScript and a

> conditional comment.
> 
> Which is worse: JS for IE6 or all those extra classes and the
potential 
> maintenance nightmare saddled with it? I'll leave that for you to
decide.
> 
> Another way to deal with IE6 is to feed it plain numbers. This can be

> done in at least 3 ways: conditional comments, "* html", or
overriding 
> the numbers with direct descendant (">").
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?

[Lucien Stals]

I haven't heard of them, but I'd certainly be interested in finding out more 
about them.

I work at Swinburne Uni (in Melbourne), and I'm pushing for more accessibility 
within the sites I'm responsible for.

Feel free to email me off the mailing list if need be.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Thanks,

Lucien.

-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 11/04/2007 at 9:41 am, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Web Accessibility Network for Australian Universities ...
> 
> http://www.wanau.org/site.html 
> 
> They are proposing running their annual forum on Accessibility in online
> teaching at UQ where I work, and we¹ve been asked to help ... :)
> 
> I expect I will be involved anyway, but would be interested in any feedback!
> 
> Cheers
> Susie
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] safari debugger

[Lucien Stals]

I recently learned that Safari has it's own built in debugger which is disabled 
by default.

Instruction for enabling the debugger are on my blog:
http://www.byteclub.net/blog/lstals/20070224/debug-safari/ 

Once enabled, it rivals Firebug as a kick ass debugger. 

Hope that help.

Lucien. 
-- 

Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223


>>> On 14/03/2007 at 10:17 am, Héctor Lupuche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
> I'm looking for a way to debug in Safari, I have tried Drosera but I'm 
> unable to install, I have not any mac experience.
> I really will appreciate any help
> Regards,
> Hector
> _
> Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger 
> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlma
>  
> iltagline
> 
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Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...

[Lucien Stals]

The example we have been seeing in this thread is one that doesn't fall
neatly into either the table or definition list categories. It could work
with both.

The broader debate about just what is a table vrs a definition list is far
more interesting. 

Paul, I like the way you put it. But I don't see DT/DD as being similar to
TH/TD.

Tables define information that can be accessed using X Y coordinates (Column
and row). So a table is a kind of ternary relationship. The x, y, and the
value identified by the coordinates.

Definition lists define key/value pairs. It's a binary relationship.

OF course the way we use these structures is incidental. In the case that
started this thread, there appears to be no header information (no X
coordinate). But we can infer implied headings of "name" and "position".
The y coordinate is the persons name. So it's a table.

But without the implied header information, it's just a list of key value
pairs. So it's a definition list.

We could go on for ever like this.

What is it realy? Who cares?

How would I write it? I'd use a DL and style the dots with CSS.

Lucien.



On 9/3/07 6:09 AM, "Paul Novitski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 3/8/2007 09:40 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
>> On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this
>> example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term
>> "President", the definition of that term would be something like "The
>> individual in charge of the organisation". "John Smith" simply cannot
>> be seen as a *definition* of the term "President", but is rather the
>> personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term "President".
>> 
>> If it was called a "denotation list", then fair enough; but it's a
>> definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever
>> vague examples may be given in the standard).
>> 
>> In the example you aren't defining any terms: you are specifying that
>> a key is bound to a value, and *that* is what a table may usefully be
>> used for.
> 
> 
> The HTML spec makes it explicitly clear that the relationship between
> term and description can be interpreted more broadly than merely
> terms and their definitions:
> 
> "Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues,
> with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words." [1]
> 
> In a dialog, the speech does not define the speaker; rather, they
> mutually inform one another to constitute a data record of closely
> associated fields.  I suggest that the DT/DD relationship is similar
> to the TH/TD relationship of "head" and "datum."
> 
> Regards,
> Paul
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
> HTML 4.01 Specification
> 10.3 Definition lists: the DL, DT, and DD elements
> 
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
Lucien Stals
Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Phone +61 3 9214 4474
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Education is only the beginning.
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